Hustle Her
Hustle Her
Hustle Her - Caroline
Have you ever wondered what it takes to transition from an executive to a non-executive role in a company? Join us as we uncover the answers with Caroline, a seasoned non-executive director for financial service companies and the 1st female Partner at PwC. Starting with the lighter side of life, we delve into what makes Caroline happiest, her skincare routine, and a few other fun facts. She then takes us on a ride through her life and career in Bermuda over the past 36 years, illuminating her journey with personal anecdotes and insights on success.
In a thoughtful discussion, we venture into the world of business, emphasizing the challenges and pressures endured by women in leadership roles. Sharing personal experiences of sexism and discrimination, Caroline and I reflect on the strides made in terms of gender diversity in Bermuda's business world while accepting there is still much work to be done. We broaden the dialogue to include racial parity, noting the advances and lapses in Bermuda's various sectors.
Lastly, we navigate the fascinating realm of non-executive roles, providing a comprehensive understanding of what they entail and how to transition into them. Caroline generously shares her wisdom and advice, highlighting the importance of having influence, building relationships, and harboring a passion for the business. She also delves into the significance of a strong executive background, reflecting on her own experiences and the value they've added to her current role. So, buckle up for a rich conversation that offers a glimpse into the life of a non-executive director, and balances the dynamics of a demanding career with family life.
It's time for hustle her podcast. I'm your host, deshae Keynes. Hustle her is all about inspiring women through real life experiences that have helped to mold and develop not only me but my guests into the entrepreneurs and leaders we are today. If you're an enterprising woman determined to succeed and looking for a bit of motivation, a bit of tough love and some actionable takeaways to be the best you girl, you are in the right place. Hey guys, and welcome back to hustle her podcast. As always, I'm really grateful that you've chosen to spend some time with me today.
Speaker 1:I want to do a big shout out to our sponsors this year's for this season. Actually, this season is Browning company as well as 59 front. 59 front to have some amazing products that we're going to be showcasing in some later episodes that you can head over there and find out some of the products that they have to offer. But make sure you head over to 59 front on front street and see some of the amazing products that they have for us. Super excited about my guest today and I know I'm aware I say that about all my guests, but genuinely that's what makes them so great, because I'm genuinely excited to interview them. So my next guest is the non executive director for financial service companies on island, miss Caroline, how are you?
Speaker 2:I'm great, thank you, thank you so much for coming Great to be here. Yes, I'm really excited.
Speaker 1:We were just talking briefly pre show and I was like wait, caroline, stop, I want you to say all of this on the podcast. So I'm excited to get into more about you, get people to know a bit more about you and your journey, and we'll kick it off. Okay, ready, all right. So we're going to do some quick, what we like to call rapid fires.
Speaker 1:So, first thing that comes to mind, First thing that comes to mind when I actually the question and then we'll go from there. Cool, all right. I'm happiest when, when I'm sitting in the garden looking at the view with my cat. Okay, and what do you do on a plane?
Speaker 2:On a plane. I try to sleep if the time is right or otherwise. I read I never watch a movie on the plane. That really I think the sound is terrible on a plane. You have your own headphones, so sometimes I work, sometimes I read for fun, sometimes I sleep.
Speaker 1:It's nothing like a good airplane sleep when you get a good one right. Exactly, I do agree the moment the permutaflight is leaving later it's much better, because I can get to sleep. When it leaves at eight o'clock you know you're not tired to have a stand.
Speaker 2:But it's leaving at 9, 30 and some.
Speaker 1:At the moment it seems to be late quite a lot too, so you can go straight to sleep. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, it's nice, it's a perfect nap too.
Speaker 2:So I've got 90 minutes.
Speaker 1:Exactly All right, so tell me a bit about your skincare routine.
Speaker 2:Well, embarrassing, because I didn't know 59 front was your sponsor. Now I do know I get my skincare from 59 front.
Speaker 1:Well, look at that.
Speaker 2:Completely coincidental. So Clinique and Bobby Brown are the products I like best, and I like Joe Malone Perfume, all of which I get from 59 front.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Look at that, just alignment with the sponsor. I don't know All right. What did you spend your first big paycheck on? Like what was something you bought yourself.
Speaker 2:The first thing I bought myself when I grew up, when I was at school or just a university.
Speaker 1:But I was.
Speaker 2:I was doing a casual job in the holidays and I saved up for a stereo. Most of your listeners are probably too young to remember stereo. This was like a big thing that had a tape deck and a record deck and a radio and speakers, and I remember it cost 200 pounds which was like 300 dollars, yeah, and I think I worked for six weeks to really, and every week I'll go and look at it and think, as soon as I got the money, I'm going to buy this Right.
Speaker 2:And then you finally did. I finally did, yeah, and I took it with me when I went to university. It took like half my room, yeah, but I was so proud of it, it was really great. How big was it? Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Four feet by two feet or something. Can you imagine like that's how big things were. And then we carry around phones that have everything on it.
Speaker 2:now it's amazing Basically we're really old because you would play what kids now call vinyl yeah, quads on them and each other record lasts like 15 minutes and you got to get up and turn it over and start again, really, yes Whereas now you can just I do this all the time you might. I put my when I go to bed if I want to sleep drifting off to something. I set the timer for either a book or music 45 minutes or something like that and I wake up in the morning and I've always missed the second half of what I was trying to read.
Speaker 1:Every time I know it ends up watching or looking at me and whatever. That is Exactly Okay. What does love feel like?
Speaker 2:Oh, love, love feels cozy and comfortable and protected and safe and a really good place to be so wrapped up, like being wrapped up in a really nice blanket.
Speaker 1:Nice, okay, what are you listening to right now?
Speaker 2:Gosh. In terms of music, I'm listening to jazz. So when I was in London, recently I went to a couple of open air jazz concerts.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There was a guy playing the music of Quintin Collins. I don't know if you know Quintin Collins.
Speaker 1:I'd never heard him before.
Speaker 2:But jazz music is great, so I downloaded some of that from Apple Music and I've been listening to that quite a bit Okay. And I'm listening to a talking book as well, which I always find. Talking books take me forever because I fall asleep or I'm not in the car or I'm not cooking, and then I haven't listened to it for a week or something. I'm listening to a talking book at the moment, which is an old Frederick Forsythe novel. Okay, I really like crime novels.
Speaker 1:Ah, okay, tommy, a hidden talent Hidden talent. Or a talent not very many people know about.
Speaker 2:That's a tricky one. I think other people would probably be able to tell you that better than me. I'm not good at that. People wouldn't know. Uh, photography maybe, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Nice, what type of?
Speaker 2:photography, wildlife, particularly so when I left PwC and we'll talk a bit about my PwC career they gave me as a leaving gift, a very nice camera and a couple of lenses and I took it up as a hobby because all of my career had been numerate writing and sort of traditional skills and when I was not going to be working full-time I wanted to do something creative and I thought I'm never going to sing or play the piano or paint or draw. So I got PwC by my camera. Nice, that's my big hobby.
Speaker 1:Nice, okay, I think I have some talents at it. Yeah, there you go. That's a hidden one. There you go Now.
Speaker 2:You have an answer for that. Exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so growing up, who was your celebrity crush?
Speaker 2:This will offend a lot of people, so forgive me, I grew up in the UK and the person I most admired. I'm not a crush, but most of my most wanted to be like was Margaret Thatcher, which I know is a very diverse, divisive person and lots of people don't like her.
Speaker 1:I really, she really resonated with me because she was a woman succeeding in the amount of world.
Speaker 2:And made me realize as a young, strenuous teenager that women could do anything and could really be the top of their game, whatever it was, so I found it very inspirational.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like a celebrity crush. Yeah, I get it though. Yeah, I think the Margaret Thatcher, you're correct, it depends on who you're talking to and how people feel it's a good.
Speaker 2:Hate her, I know, hate her politics and so, but if I think, if you ignore her politics, I think she was a woman in a man's world. She knew what she wanted and went and got her, whether you agree with it or not, and she really made her mark. I'm going to talk about it today.
Speaker 1:To say which. If you have, you know you can disagree. For politics, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Can't take away from that right Lots of people disagree with her politics Some of them. I disagree with you, but I really admire what she achieved in terms of the handicap she has had against her in those days when she was born, in the 40s or 50s, when women were just supposed to stay at home and get married and have kids and look at her, and she went on and forged a career that's still talked about with all around the world.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, and I know you've been in Bermuda for quite some time and I'm not sure if you have a Bermuda team or not, but I ask everyone this question who is your cut match team?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a really tricky one. I have been in Bermuda a long time, but I don't really follow cut match. I live near Ritter St George's, so I live in Ritter St George's, that's my team. Okay, I've only been to the cut match event twice, but I do usually watch it on TV.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. So St George's then, I guess All right, I won't be too upset about that, caroline, but it's okay. I'm going to say, did I?
Speaker 2:get the colors right, because I don't like red, I like blue. Okay, st George's a little bit too blue. Yes, st George's too blue. So then there you go. That's perfect. That's another reason. Exactly, all right.
Speaker 1:So tell me a little bit about you growing up, like what did you like to do, what did you like to get involved in? What did you think? Did you always know you were going to be an accountant? Like tell me about young Caroline.
Speaker 2:Sure, young Caroline, I definitely didn't always want to be an accountant. I used to read a lot, I was a reader and again, I grew up in the 70s, right? So therefore, again, probably a lot before a lot of your guys listening were around. But I would listen to pop music, you know. I would get a Discos and stuff like that, which were all very wholesome in those days. Young people Like teenagers, young teenagers like what are you called tweens today? They don't go off to Discos and we'd have Coke and dance around in the room and stuff.
Speaker 2:So I did a lot of that. I did a lot of reading when I was at university. You probably wouldn't think of that, so I played in women's football team Really.
Speaker 1:That was great. What was your?
Speaker 2:position, my position oh, it was to the left of center.
Speaker 1:OK Center left back right, I don't remember. I don't remember. Yes, Center forward.
Speaker 2:Not the person in the middle, not the captain On the ones on one side. Yes, I did that for a term when I was at university. That was great fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Again, it was really groundbreaking because you can have women's football in those days and now, when you see like the. England team do really well in women's football.
Speaker 1:It's great to see yeah, definitely OK. And so when you were finishing school and you were heading off to, did you do college first in the UK?
Speaker 2:I went to university from school, yeah, so I lived obviously lived at home with my parents in the UK. I went to university in London, which is what I really wanted to do, and I did my three years there and I again less common this side of the world, but in the UK it's very common that you do a degree in something you're interested in. That's not so vocational and then you choose your career?
Speaker 2:Yes, obviously, if you do medicine or law or something, or, hopefully, engineering you know what you're doing, but I was a history graduate so I did history at university because I liked it. I really enjoyed it Was.
Speaker 1:I ever a history degree as well. You did history as well. Yes, I did. I see that. Yeah, I've got a lot in common.
Speaker 2:I know, and I definitely didn't always want to be an accountant, but I wanted to work in the business environment and I just sort of as time goes on. I definitely didn't want to teach all the obvious things for history, right, you're a researcher, you're a teacher, you work in a library. You don't want to do any of those things. I wanted to work in business and the one that was easiest to get into when I graduated was accountancy. So I became an accountant with the. I was I think you know I was with PWC in Bermudon, was a partner there.
Speaker 2:Actually started my training in the UK with a predecessor firm of PWC. Okay, so I sort of came full circle and then joined them again in Bermuda and then became a partner with them here.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how did you end up in Bermuda?
Speaker 2:I did my three years at what was called Coops and Library and now. Pwc qualifies as an accountant and I wanted to carry on living in London.
Speaker 2:But it's a little bit like it is today it's very difficult to get your foot on a housing ladder if you're paying rent, if you're all of your money is going to pay rent, so you can't save for a deposit, so you can't buy in where to live in. Bermuda's as bad for young people, but the UK is particularly bad now, much worse than for me. So I thought I don't want to spend my life renting.
Speaker 1:But I really want to live in London, so how am?
Speaker 2:I going to get a deposit together. I know I'll go and work overseas for a couple of years make some money and come back and get on with my life. And so I said where am I going to go? Somewhere warm and somewhere to speak English.
Speaker 1:And it was almost that simple, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I applied for a job in Australia in the Cayman Islands and in Bermuda, and Bermuda was the first one that came back to me Really that simple, and I'm so, so glad I came here.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've been to Cayman a few times while I've been living here, and it's just. I don't know if I offended anyone from Cayman listening, but I. Bermuda is just straight ahead of Cayman in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Have you been there? Yeah, I've been to Cayman once, yes, and I wasn't. I mean, it's difficult when you're from an island, right, you always compare it to where you're from, and just let's just say I prefer Bermuda as well.
Speaker 2:And the main reason I prefer Bermuda is because from almost anywhere you are in Bermuda, you can see the ocean, yeah, or, and definitely, you can see the trees, yeah, whereas in Cayman, firstly, there are much less trees because it's much drier and hotter, and it's flat and flat.
Speaker 2:But also the all the beaches and oceans, it feels to me anyway, are all occupied by the private homes or the hotels. Yes, so as a as a normal resident, if you're not staying in a hotel, you haven't got to be house or you don't have a beach membership. You can't go to the beach. Yeah, because everywhere in Bermuda every person in Bermuda if they want to go to the beach can go to the beach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's a really fair point. I never thought of it like that. So you said you were only going to come here for a few years save up and how many years later are we now? We are now.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, 36 years, wow, isn't that scary. So I came for two and the end of two. I hadn't saved enough money because I'd spent it all. I thought I'll save for two more. Ok, and during the second two I met who's now my husband.
Speaker 1:So we decided to get married and stay here.
Speaker 2:Ok, he had come to Bermuda for two years with his parents when he was 10 years old. Wow, his parents came for two years as well, and then and they stayed forever, and so he grew up here. And then I met him, obviously, and then we decided to make Bermuda our home. We stayed here.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. So walk me through your career at PWC.
Speaker 2:Sure, my career at PWC. Well, I was very lucky with no planning because of the timing. It's like when I came out to join PWC.
Speaker 2:It was amazing because the insurance industry here was just starting off, so Acer and Excel were just being formed. They're obviously now AXA, and gosh, what a chub. Chub and AXA. They were Acer and Excel. Then they were brand new companies, and so Bermuda was really just starting to take off in that sphere. We'd always had captives. Obviously, the tourism industry was going gangbusters at that point, but the insurance industry was new, and so I was able to start working in a new industry on a level playing field with everyone else in Bermuda, because nobody else knew much about insurance either, and so therefore, the fact I'd come from the UK and didn't know much about insurance was not the handicap. It would be if I came today, for example. So I was able to start working with these great companies.
Speaker 2:And you know as well as I, but insurance companies in Bermuda are always doing exciting things because they're nimble and they come here for the regulatory pragmatism and they've generally got a lot of dollars in their capital base and so they're always doing new stuff. They're always startups, they're always pushing the envelope, and so I was able to firstly work with really interesting companies doing really interesting things, but also grow with them. So when I first started working with Excel, for example, as a service rider, they probably had 20 people, so I knew everyone, and then you turn around and five years later, 200 people still know everyone. That's a really great way to have a career. So I was very lucky in my timing that I grew with the industry.
Speaker 1:OK, and then you stayed in insurance and reinsurance during your time at PWC.
Speaker 2:I did mostly yeah.
Speaker 1:So was the goal always to end in partnership there.
Speaker 2:I think so. Yes, I mean now the firms are a little bit, not a little bit, a lot more, but just for pyramid. When I was coming through any of the firms Deloitte, kpmg, pwc they would all be the same, all of the accountants there. It was an up or out mentality. So either you wanted to be a partner and you were going to become a partner on the track, or you weren't going to become a partner, in which case you probably decided you wanted to leave and go to something else. So, for a variety of reasons, either you didn't want the life, or you weren't suited to it or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2:If you go and work in industry, you can be the chief accountant forever. You don't have to aspire to be the CFO and CEO and the chairman, whereas when you're in a PWC and when the accounting firms in those days they almost had a philosophy of up or out, so as long as you were progressing they wanted you to stay. Once you started progressing you were often seen as a blocker for the people coming behind. Now the firms are a lot better. Now they have career paths for all sorts of people. Some people want to stay at certain levels, some people want to go in a different direction, some people are working in non-accounting parts of the firm. They can all have really fulfilling careers. But I think when I was coming through in those days it was very much. If you didn't want to be a partner or you weren't able to be a partner or for whatever other reason, you probably would self-select out and go and do something else. So the longer I stayed, the more it became obvious it was a track.
Speaker 1:And during that time, when you were coming up, when you were matriculating through PWC, did you find, were you? Obviously there were more males during that time. But was it just you, or were there other women as well?
Speaker 2:There are other women in the firm, certainly, but I was the first partner at PwC in Bermuda and probably the second or third partner in any accounting firm in Bermuda.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was female.
Speaker 2:It was female yes. So it's quite a lonely role to be in at the beginning, and I have an anecdote I could share with you of quite significant chauvinism, but generally speaking, my colleagues were incredibly supportive of me. They made me a partner right. They didn't have to do that, and so they were very supportive. There's a couple I could call out who were particularly great to me really good mentors through my career. But yes, it was difficult, and challenging is probably a better way of putting it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what were some of the biggest challenges, would you say.
Speaker 2:I think you get noticed very quickly can be a good thing or a bad thing. So everybody always remembers you oh, it's that female partner or whatever. And that's great when you're doing something good. It's less great when you stumble, and so people always remember, Because if you're one of the guys in a gray suit, people, particularly outside the firm, they don't necessarily remember which one of you it was, Whereas if you're the only female, then of course they remember immediately where you were. Equally well, they always remember you for good stuff. So people would then say oh, we'd like to interview a couple of your partners, maybe a male and a female, and so because there's anyone female, you always get to do that.
Speaker 1:Got it.
Speaker 2:So I got a lot of profiling. I got a lot of opportunity to do public speaking at conferences and things like that. It was great. I also got a lot of opportunity to mentor people which I really, really loved. And now that I don't work full time in a company, that's actually the thing I miss the most is having a formal mentoring relationship with people.
Speaker 1:Both men and women. I really enjoy it. So.
Speaker 2:I try and seek out those opportunities for people and people seek out me as well. And it's great to feel that you can give back, and you can a little bit like we're doing today. You can just mention a couple of things from your past.
Speaker 2:That might be helpful or help them think through things, Because if you're in the middle of a challenge, you can't always see straight or you get quite emotional about it or whatever it may be, and maybe somebody who's been there or somebody who isn't so emotionally involved can actually help you think it through a little bit more. Have you thought about it this way? Have you considered that actually this person may not just be really horrible perhaps they're having a bad day or whatever and help people reframe it a little bit, which is hopefully useful for them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important to have people like that in your life, you know what I mean, I think, it is Especially professionally, because sometimes, when things are happening to us in our professions we're so close to it, we have these very emotional responses right, we tend to take it all very personally Exactly.
Speaker 2:And it's almost always not personal. You know, as I said, someone's having a bad day or they, I don't know whatever. There are all sorts of reasons why they might behave the way they do.
Speaker 1:My mom is a business teacher and she has this like philosophy. She'll be so happy that I've said this. Hopefully she watches this episode, but with her it's always it's not personal, it's just business, right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And so she tells her students that all the time. It's like always a theme of her classroom. And so it's so interesting that you said that, because literally some things are not personal, they're really not, it's just business. But when they're happening to you.
Speaker 2:you take them personally and over the years I definitely took a lot of things personally which now I look back, I shouldn't have got so excited about it. I really should have just realized it. A it was nothing personal or B I was actually women, particularly you, would you probably have experiences to. You tend to have the imposter syndrome too, so you tend to think, if I haven't been selected for this, or I haven't won at this, or somebody didn't speak to me about that because I'm not very good at my job?
Speaker 2:Of course it isn't. They were just walking down the corridor thinking about getting a coffee. They weren't ignoring you, Whereas you tend to internalize all of that Because a little bit of imposter syndrome and all the other things that go with it.
Speaker 1:And within your career. Sometimes it wasn't as personal, but did you ever encounter times where it was personal because you were a woman? Oh, yeah, yeah, don't do it now.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you a story without naming anyone.
Speaker 2:I told this story to a few people. I don't know if the person involved ever realized what they actually did, but it wasn't long after I had become a partner at PwC and we had a visitor I kind of remember who it was now coming into the to the boardroom and met with a few of us and he sort of said so how many partners do you have here now? And the guy who was with me said 12, but it's really just 11. Cause one of them's a woman. No way, Absolutely In front of you, Absolutely In front of me, in front of lots of other people too. Oh my goodness, I was like what do you say to that? Right?
Speaker 1:Could you imagine if someone said that in 2023? Yeah, he fired.
Speaker 2:Immediately, immediately, absolutely immediately. But he just sort of laughed and carried on and to their credit, two of my other male colleagues jumped in and were really forceful with him. I said no, she has to say anything.
Speaker 1:That's good. Which is I remember?
Speaker 2:it what? 15 years later, 20 years later, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:I remember it. Yeah, because something like that is of course not, but it's so impressionable on you that people don't realize sometimes. Oh yeah, you're making a joke, but in actual fact you look at yourself. Well, wait, was I only made a partner?
Speaker 2:And you do? You start questioning yourself. Was I only made a partner because I was a woman. Was it counting numbers? Was it the early years of DEI? All that sort of stuff? And of course I said of course I am sure none of that was true Sort of all of a sudden it's the whole imposter thing again. But this guy, he probably didn't remember it 10 minutes later.
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably not, but what I love the most about that story is your other co-workers jumping in on your behalf, which was great yeah.
Speaker 2:Couple of the guys. They were younger than him and my sort of age. They jumped right in and called him out and that was the best part of the story.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. So, with having this kind of pioneering career right and when I say that meaning like obviously you were the first female partner at PWC and other firms in Bermuda period what type of pressure did you feel during that time, if any?
Speaker 2:I think it's the always being front and center. If you mess something up, they say, oh well, it's because you've got a woman. If you had a male partner, that would never have happened. You've always got real pressure not to do female things. So, for example, don't get upset, don't cry, don't be emotional. So that was the pressure. I always thought that had to be better than everybody else in the world. Time to prove that they were right to have given me the opportunity.
Speaker 1:So, that's.
Speaker 2:I mean, lots of people feel that today still, of course, but it was just very noticeable. If I said to you now how many female partners are there in the county firms in Bermuda, you probably don't know the answer, and I don't either, but I tell you it's quite a lot, whereas if you'd asked somebody that 20 years ago they'd have named two or three people and everybody knew who they were, and it wasn't just the accounting firms, of course, it was the law firms, as well. All of those professional practices.
Speaker 1:So, given that we have made progress in this space in terms of gender balance is there anything that you are still a little disappointed with in terms of the progress that we've made with gender parity and balance in Bermuda period across the sectors? I guess the thing I'd be less about gender and more about race, I think, which I'm still disappointed with in.
Speaker 2:Bermuda, where we haven't got the racial parity we should have. I believe that everyone now is. I hope everyone now is trying to really focus on it. Dei is a big buzzword. Everyone talks about it, we have the dive-in festival, all sorts of things like that, but it is taking a very long time. Maybe it took a very long time to get the first few females as well, but because I was one of them, if I was my mother's generation, I'd probably feel very differently.
Speaker 2:I was very lucky I was again. Timing is everything. Timing of me coming to Bermuda was great Timing of me entering the workforce and being a female. I had opportunities for generations before me Couldn't even dream of. I think we're on that journey, but we're not quite where we need to be in terms of black and white in Bermuda as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I agree with you and I think when you look at the wider community of Bermuda outside of the insurance and reinsurance industry, it's so interesting because our wider community is a completely different racial balance than it is inside of An international business.
Speaker 2:I'm absolutely right.
Speaker 1:And it's so unique in that way because in other parts of the world in the UK, in the US a lot of times it's more difficult for them to understand that because it's very different in the wider community as well. But here it's like well, no, it's the complete opposite. So it's very interesting that you said that we haven't made that much progress. It means to me we do have so much more to go and we have done some things. We've done a lot.
Speaker 2:It's also the further you come, the more you realize you have to go. I think one of the challenges in Bermuda's international business sector is that we don't have very large companies.
Speaker 2:So if you have 200 people in Bermuda, a really big company, if you are in the UK or the US, you'd have 5,000 people and obviously the bigger you are, the flatter is the pyramid. So there are more entry level opportunities and therefore there are more people coming into them and there are more opportunities to progress up, Because Bermuda international companies tend to be quite pointed and that they, as I mentioned earlier, with insurance and reinsurance. They tend to be the more senior people here, whereas the more junior people would be back in the UK or the US, or wherever it is.
Speaker 2:And so that's by definition. You don't have the same number of entry level jobs, which creates a challenge. Yeah definitely.
Speaker 1:I think we are doing better we are I definitely can say that, but I do agree with you that there are things that we could do a bit more intentional about. Absolutely Very much intentional and I think, coming back to gender, I think the forward thinking companies like the PWC in the world today they are very much more forward thinking in terms of gender and indeed about race.
Speaker 2:They've changed exponentially in 20 years. There's also a different career path for genders and for different people who want to do different things. There's much bigger intern programs, Again, if I I shouldn't really be speaking for PWC, because I don't work there anymore but I do follow them on their social media and LinkedIn and stuff and so when I was there we maybe had four interns a year out of 200. And now they probably had 25 interns a year out of 200.
Speaker 2:And that's a huge difference. And the more interns you bring in, obviously the more opportunities you'll bring into the local population, be they black or white, I think that's really good.
Speaker 1:It is good, and it also, you know, it also builds a pipeline of talent, right, exactly so, when people are coming in as well, and there's a whole thing about if you don't see it, you can't be it and so on, exactly.
Speaker 2:And so people now know people who are working in the business sector, and so if you see that, you can feel you can aspire to it, whereas if you don't see it, it's much more difficult to see yourself in that role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which again comes back to being one of the first women to do things and they are.
Speaker 2:And the Margaret Thatcher inspiration. Having seen Margaret Thatcher do stuff, and if you were, if you were a young black Bermudian female here, you might see someone like Pamela Banks or Patricia Gordon-Pamplin or Paula Cox and see that as your inspiration.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and Jennifer and all these people. They've been inspirational. I hope in similar ways to the community here. Yeah, absolutely. So you know, on the journey of your career at PWC and you're sending into partnership, you obviously married during this time. How did you do both? Because obviously being an accountant is really a demanding job, and then having a family as well. Tell me a bit about how that was for you.
Speaker 2:It was a challenge, but I was fortunate or unfortunate, but in terms of managing it didn't have young children, so I didn't have children myself. I had a stepson, but he didn't live with us full-time, obviously, he had his mother and so he was 10 when I came along, so I missed all the sleepless nights and baby things, which made it much easier, of course, in terms of managing a career. But certainly I remember some of my younger colleagues saying to me it's all right for you being a partner because you don't have kids, you can make it happen, you can focus on your career, and I think that was the case then. Now, of course, it's very different. Men and women want to focus on family and career.
Speaker 2:How do you make it work? I think it's a phallus to say you can have it all. But I think you can have it all, but not at the same time. And one thing that people can sometimes forget is that your career whether you take a break or have kids or don't is very long, and most people will start working in their early 20s and will stop working in their early or late 60s. That's a 40-year career. So if you take five years out or even 10 years out, it actually doesn't matter. One of the days, I hope, where you need to achieve this by this age, because now it doesn't matter. So if, for example, you want to take a career break and bring up kids, or you want to take a career break and help your father because he's elderly.
Speaker 2:You can do that and you can still have it all. What you maybe can't do is have it all this year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which I think is a really good point to make. I think we are changing the narrative a bit about having it all, but I love how you said you may not have it all this year, but it may happen throughout your time. It'll happen throughout your time.
Speaker 2:And at times, other things are important. I'm going to pick an example. If you're a young person and you're really into sport. Well, maybe you want a job that's reasonably nine to five and reasonably consistent, because it's really important to you to go and train a couple of nights a week and play your sport on the weekend and be able to take some time off and go and compete for Bermuda, or whatever it might be.
Speaker 2:And at this point in your life, when you're at a point where you can be really professionally competitive at sport, then maybe your career takes a little bit of a backseat and you focus on that, and then maybe, when your sporting days are a little bit more behind you, then you focus a bit on your career or you focus on your family or whatever.
Speaker 2:But gone are the days, I think, where you had to achieve everything by the time you were 35 or 40. And if you weren't keeping up your period, you fell behind and so on. I mean, we haven't really talked about age disparities as well, but we've talked about gender and race, but I think age as well is really important. You now have working populations of people when you get past the intern stage people have all sorts of different levels.
Speaker 2:People are going out and coming back and creating fluid take some time off and go do something else. I met a month or so ago with Arlene Brock who, you may know she was a former ombudsman.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And then she left Bermuda for a while and she went back to the university and she did a whole bunch of things and then she went to work in Africa and now she's coming back to Bermuda and now she's doing charitable work. So she's my sort of age. But the point being, you can do various things. Crewers used to be straight lines and now they're far more zigzag, so you can do anything and be anything you want, but you maybe can't do it all at once.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. So I want to shift a bit into your transition from PWC into your board work, and I believe we call it non-executive director. So what was Non-executive?
Speaker 2:just means part time. Yeah so you're part time. I'm just joking.
Speaker 1:So what was the shift in that? Were you just ready to leave PWC at the time, or did you just see this opportunity on the board side of things?
Speaker 2:A little bit of both. So the opportunity was there and I think, being non-executive, you can be a non-executive. Most people are probably not very qualified to be non-executives early in their career because you need to have done stuff as an executive before you can be a credible non-executive. And I said jokingly non-executive is part time. It is, but it's also, by definition, not full time in the business. So an executive person is all over it running the company and non-executive person is slightly away so that they can apply a different sort of oversight.
Speaker 1:That's really what it means there.
Speaker 2:So by definition, I think you can't be a non-executive when you're young because you haven't had enough experience in whatever it is. So it tends to be people who are sort of over 40, maybe even over 50.
Speaker 2:I think we don't have so many people now in their 70s and 80s which they used to have back in the day, so the transition was partly opportunistic in that I was around about 50 and I thought what do I want to do for the next 10 to 15 years of my life? Do I want to carry on with with PWC or be a full-time?
Speaker 2:executive role in the insurance industry, for example and I decided I want to have a different life. I felt at that point I'd spent a lot of my career advising clients, because that's what you do places like PWC and attending board meetings and going to boardrooms. You know, when you and I first met, I was on the board of the BDA and you were working in the BDA and so therefore I was a non-executive there, and that gives you the opportunity to have a bit more of a portfolio career because when you're an executive, you work in a company BDA, XL, PWC, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:When you're a non-executive, you work with several and you get a little bit of diversity, which is great diversity of experience. I mean, you do get, quite frankly, a different work-life balance. So I sit on five boards and I probably work about 30% of the year but not in a book.
Speaker 2:So this week and last week I was very busy. Next week I'm travelling for business and then I have about three weeks when I have no board meetings. So I'll be spending that time thinking, reading, writing, but not full-time, and so I have that sort of ability to balance my life. So, depending on what's going on with the company, it's almost a third and a half, and when the company is going through challenges good challenges or bad challenges you also need to spend a lot more time with them. So we were talking just before we started recording, about COVID. So during my COVID time I was on five boards.
Speaker 2:It's for different five boards that are now but each of them was having challenges during COVID, so it was basically a very full-time job. So one of them was an insurance company having challenges with the insurance policies written in COVID, whether they covered losses or whether they didn't. Another one was an investment company which some of its investments value just fell off a cliff. And then a third one the top three people in the company will hospitalise with COVID. So you think you've got a succession plan. If the CEO goes under a bus, then the CFO could step in, but if they're all on ventilators and hospital, then all of a sudden so we had the chairman of the company having to step in and then I stepped up to take the chairman's job and you do a little bit of musical jazz.
Speaker 2:So for that 12, 18 month period I was really really busy so with lots of other people, Whereas now the companies I'm on the board of are all in a steady state and so I'm not working crazily busy. I think I mentioned to you this week, so I'm attending board meetings tomorrow and Tuesday in Bermuda. Got some people flying in from London, some people are in Bermuda joining me at the meeting.
Speaker 2:This morning I met with the London guys to chat about the next couple of days. Tonight we have a kickoff dinner, monday and Tuesday we have two more dinners. So it's actually a very sort of busy three or four days, if you will, and then, as I said, next week I'm travelling and last week I was busy as well. So it's not just. If you think about most non executive roles, I've got board meetings four to six times a year, usually two days, and you add that up, you think how many days is that? Well, I work on the principle if it's a one day meeting, I'll spend two days preparing for it and probably half a day debriefing from it.
Speaker 2:So it actually takes about a week or a week, and I think that's what you need to do Again. Gone are the days, I hope, where you read the papers on the plane, you turn up the meeting, you say a few things, you have lunch and you leave again. Those sort of directors, those sort of boards are not very effective. They're not the ones I do sit on, or that I want to sit on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how often do you change over in boards, like you mentioned you on different boards on COVID and then now and then once in answering that question as well, like, can you be effective on a board if you stay on too long?
Speaker 2:I don't believe so. The UK has a rule which is a maximum of nine years. The US, and by extension Bermuda, doesn't have that same rule. They just have a general indication which is the US way. Is we want on the board as a whole? We want some people who are quite new and some people have been there a while.
Speaker 2:So we've got a mixed experience the UK has a view of once you've been there for certainly nine, but maybe even six you're starting to become a little bit too familiar with everything and so you're stopping to be so critical of stuff. I mean, Chris, can the positive?
Speaker 2:way then we want to change you out. So I would say, generally speaking, everybody can always persuade themselves that they're exceptional and they need to stay, and every company can persuade themselves that this person is really good and we want them to stay. But I think it's actually quite good to have a fixed tenure, whatever that is could be nine years or 12 years or 15 years. Whatever it is, it should be a fixed tenure and only an exceptional circumstances would you extend it, because people are not as good as they used to be. There's a little bit of a learning curve. You're on a board and two years in you're oh wow.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize that when I first joined. You actually learn a lot, yes, and then you contribute massively, I hope, for the next five or six or seven years, and then it starts tailing off at the other end as well, because then you become a bit stale.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So unless the company's doing lots of massive new things, then you sort of can become a little bit stale because you've been there a while, and so I think a refreshment in a tenure is good and a mixture of 10 years on the board is good. So if you have a couple of people who've been there a couple of years, a couple of being there being maybe about 10, and a couple in the middle, I think that's a healthy balance and it tends to, by definition, be age as well.
Speaker 2:So, people who have been there longer tend to be older, and people who have been there less, tend to be younger, and then you have the skills mix and the gender mix and the race mix and all of those things. So the best functioning boards are very diverse in the boarder's sense.
Speaker 1:So what's the sweet spot of 10 year on a board, would you say For?
Speaker 2:me Depends on companies, depends on the person. If I joined a board when I was 65, I think I would do an absolute max of 10 years, probably more like seven. If I joined a board when I was 50, I think then 10 to 15 would be fine. I think it depends on you and it depends what the company's doing. If you have a company that's going through a lot of change and a lot of acquisition, a lot of growth, I think there's a lot of benefit in having people have been on that journey with you. Yeah, because if you've got a company in a steady state, I think it makes more sense to change up so that you have different perspectives around the table all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm given all this wealth of knowledge that you have an experience from your career and now you're non executive director career that you have Cause I feel like that's a second career.
Speaker 2:It definitely has, that's right.
Speaker 1:Like what would be some advice you would give to someone who maybe on a similar path, not necessarily via accounting, but in their career, like that, um, to a young woman who's looking at or listening to this and saying you know, hmm, maybe that's something I could do. What's something that you would give to her in this moment?
Speaker 2:You mean to become a non executive? Yeah, um, I think focus first on doing a really good job at your executive career Cause, to be credible, I mean, there's always people who need non executives and third sex charities are always needing people. But I think, to be credible, you've got to have some executive experience behind you. If you haven't, then you haven't experienced things that helpful around the board.
Speaker 2:So when you're sitting around the board table and there's a problem I don't know could be any sort of a problem right, Um, um, you know, a staffing issue or a branding issue or a financial issue I think if you've experienced, either through your work directly or through your consulting work you've experienced something there. It won't be exactly the same, but directionally the same, Then you can have a really good perspective to add, Whereas I think if you're quite young in your career, all you really have to bring to a non executive role is the ability to work hard, which is very valuable, but it's not the only thing. So I would say don't be impatient to give yourself a little bit of time. I had lunch with a young man at one of my companies.
Speaker 2:I sit on the board with a couple of months ago and he was interested in a noise secretary and he was only 32. I think this is a wrong conversation to be having. By all means think about it as an aspiration in 10, 15 years time, but right now you should be focusing on building your executive career. Don't think about it as being a good gig because it's only relatively part time and so on.
Speaker 1:It's, it's it's hard work and you have to bring more to the table, you know what I mean. Like you're. Like you said, your experience is actually what is the most valuable during your executive time.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's your experience and your ability, and it's also your, your personal skills, it's your ability and willingness to. I have two jobs really as a non-executive you have two jobs. One is to support the management team and one is to challenge the management team, and by doing both of those things, what you're doing is you're representing the investors and the shareholders who are not in the room.
Speaker 2:So if they were all in the room, that's what they would be doing. They're all in the room. The management team would get nothing done. So the shareholders elect a small group of people five, eight, whatever to do their job for them, delegate it effectively. And I said when every time I go to a board meeting, I have two jobs to support the management team when they deserve it.
Speaker 2:So you probe them and you make sure that their career sorry their strategy is on track and have they thought about this, have they thought about that? Or if they're going through a cultural challenge, or if they're having problems, you support them and you sort of put your arm around them as a hug and and so saying this will pass.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know whatever.
Speaker 2:And then it's also challenging. Really, are you sure we want to expand in there Because, based on everything I read, there seems to be quite a crowd of field. Are you sure it makes sense? Have we done the research? Have we got the right people, all that sort of stuff? So those are the two things you should remember walking into the room Constructive challenge and support. Definitely Know when to do which one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely You've got to be, you know, heavy handed sometimes. And then there's all the other things like being prepared to commit the time being passionate about the business.
Speaker 2:I would not want to sit on a board that I didn't believe in the business for example so that's almost the first thing. Do I believe in the business? Do I think it's going to be successful? That may not be financial success, maybe a successful in another way, but do I believe it's been successful? And the other key thing about a non executive, which is a bit like working in a company, but even more important.
Speaker 2:I think as a non exec is do you like and trust the people and can you have influence? Because if you don't like and trust them when things go wrong which they will nobody's got your back Right, whereas if you, that's why we do these things like dinners and travel together and spend a lot of time, because when things are difficult, you've built a relationship. So one of the reasons I'm here today is because we met years ago and we built a relationship and we haven't been very active in keeping in touch. But when you reach out, I know you're immediately and you know me and we have some idea about what we can talk about. That takes time to build that relationship. So to just not have that relationship with your fellow board members is a missed opportunity really Also enables you to be more successful.
Speaker 2:And then the final one is can I make a difference? Two things have I got the skills to make a difference? If they need someone who's very good at engineering, I'm not going to be able to make a difference right, but other things I'm good at. Can I make a difference? Do I have skills and can I do? I think they'll listen to me. Is it a culture where the open minded is it?
Speaker 1:Is it one where they are?
Speaker 2:Interested in hearing different perspectives around the table. Is it a? Collegial and supportive, non-totsick environment. And in all of those issues. If the answer is that tick, tick, tick, then yes, you think about whether it's something you want to do.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting I'm actually very intrigued, because you hear about this non-executive director role and so many people aspire to it and you don't really realize what it takes to do it. And I think the key of what I'm getting from you here is the skill the skill side of it, right, like a lot of people are doing it Absolutely. No disrespect to the IOD course, but a lot of people are just doing it, thinking that that is the key to get into the door, not realizing that that executive work that you do is actually the major key to help you with that.
Speaker 2:You're quite right. The IOD courses are great, but they're primarily great for people who haven't had senior executive careers. I think I've done a couple of them. I've not done the certification. I thought I've had enough exams.
Speaker 1:I think you're going to do another one.
Speaker 2:But I enjoyed the courses, I learned from them. But there are people doing it as a way to get a non-executive role, whereas I think the way I would view it as a way to be better at doing your non-executive role, rather than ticking a box and getting a bit like you know, I've got my A level, I've got my degree or whatever it is tick now qualified. You don't really want to be looking at that way. It's more. There's some basics like what are my legal obligations and those sorts of things, but it's a whole range of stuff. So I wouldn't decry the IOD course, but it's only one tool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Okay. I mean I can't believe what, almost. I mean we've done about 45 minutes here, so we're going to just wrap up quickly. But essentially I always ask this when I leave, you know, when people leave the couch here, and it's essentially what I want to know from you is when you're no longer with us and you've had some time, you know, and people say you know, caroline Folger, and they, they're talking about you. What is
