On today's podcast, Joy interviews one of her friends about friendship. Together, they uncover some beautiful truths about the link between self love and healthy friendships.
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Welcome to Here We Are. The podcast where we celebrate the beauty of being a nerd by learning about nerdy things from fellow nerds. I'm your host, Joy Blue. Today's guest is a close friend of mine. Brie and I were introduced to Ashley last year through a mutual friend and have quickly developed a friendship that is not only deep, but a lot of fun. There's so many more things I could say here, but we talk about it in this interview. So without further ado, here's my friend, Ashley, to talk with us about the goodness of friendship.
Ashley Xu:hi I'm Ashley and I am Joy's friend. Love being her friend and Brie's friend. I am also a software developer for work. And then a ton of other things for fun. I like to sew. I like to knit. I recently got into doing Lego kits. That's been fun.
Joy Blue:Yes, you did.
Ashley Xu:I feel like,
Joy Blue:one at my house a couple weeks ago.
Ashley Xu:oh my gosh, the Minecraft hit before playing Minecraft with you. It was epic. I loved getting
Joy Blue:That was such a good day.
Ashley Xu:it was, thanks for including me on Journey. I loved it.
Joy Blue:Of course. What do you wanna nerd out about today?
Ashley Xu:Oh my gosh. I would love to talk about friendships today. It's been on the top of my mind for a long time.
Joy Blue:Okay, let's start with a definition. How do you define friendship? What does it mean to you?
Ashley Xu:Oh gosh. So for me, friendship is about connecting with people and spending time with people and putting in dedicated effort and showing people that I care about them and receiving the same from them. And what do you define friendship.
Joy Blue:I think I define friendship as a non-judgmental place to be seen and understood.
Ashley Xu:I like that. I feel like I have to, I just made it up too.
Joy Blue:Great. Yeah, I mean there's been a lot of conversations I've had recently about the beauty of being in places where you don't have to explain yourself.
Ashley Xu:Oh, tell me more about that. I wanna hear about it.
Joy Blue:So it's no secret that I'm gay, married to Brie. It's wonderful. It's been interesting because the gay queer experience of love is often different than the hetero experience of love. So Brie and I went really fast. We were married within six months of knowing each other and to a lot of people that was like, Oh my gosh, you're moving so fast. What is going on? But yet, in the queer community, that's normal. Nobody blinks an eye at that. So to be in the presence of other queer people like myself who all we have to say is, yeah, we met in January and we got married in June, and they're like, me too. And that's all you have to say. Like it's the power of me too. I don't have to defend myself or tell you why I am the way I am. Like friendship to me is to be able to show up in these spaces where if I explain myself, it's because of curiosity, not because of defending what I've done.
Ashley Xu:Oh, absolutely. I think it's so important to have people in your life who accept you as you are and are curious about you, rather than needing you to to be a certain person or in a certain box that they may have placed you in. That can be challenging, especially if people have known you for a long period of time too.
Joy Blue:Yeah. I mean, part of friendship is also protecting my own agency, my own ability to stand up for myself to do as I see right. And also allowing you the opportunity to do the same.
Ashley Xu:Oh yeah, absolutely.
Joy Blue:part of what's hard about adulting is because, all of us have different experiences and I might see something you don't, and I can see, oh, 12 steps down the path. Here's how this is gonna go. But if you're not in a place to hear that, it's not my place to tell you. And so then just to sit there and be like, I allow you, your agency to make your own decision, just because I predicted that it might do one thing doesn't mean it's going to. I'm gonna trust that you know best for you.
Ashley Xu:I love that. Yeah, that's something I feel like I have also developed over time, like trying to give my opinion less or like think about what impacts things might have for people and just letting them experience their life. And for me, I feel like friendship is like about really accepting a person where they are and how they are at that moment and not
Joy Blue:Hmm.
Ashley Xu:Really inserting your own opinion into their lives. It's important to me. I feel like it sounds like it's important to you too.
Joy Blue:And I think that's a reason why we resonate.
Ashley Xu:Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like we can just come as we are and be the people that we are and we don't really need to push our own opinions, thoughts, ideas on people. But I love hearing your opinions, thoughts, and ideas. I'm always so curious.
Joy Blue:Same. What has your journey with friendship been?
Ashley Xu:It's been. a ride. I feel like as a person who is always in recovery for codependency due, due to my background I feel like friendship and how I've thought of it has changed drastically over time. I feel like, with my background of not being super close to my family for various reasons, I feel like I've always placed a huge importance on friendships. And the people who I've met in my life haven't always felt the same way. That's valid. Like they can have their own opinions, thoughts, and ideas about it. And I feel like it's been hard for me to come to the realization that some people just don't resonate with me in the way that the friendship I would like to have at least. But I feel like I've. With relationships, I now kind of hold them more in my palm rather than with like trying to hold them in my fist where they try to escape, I know, I feel like I have changed a lot and my ideas about friendships have changed a lot and I feel like for me it's more about having shared moments of joy with people and really getting to know their inner spirits. what about for you?
Joy Blue:I resonate a lot with what you said. I grew up with the thought, I'm not quite sure where I got it, but I grew up with the thought of I need to be friends with everybody. And so that landed me in a place where, with codependency in my background, I then felt the need to take care of these people and their feelings. Which part of codependency is taking care of someone else without them asking. Without their permission. It's, I need you to be okay so I can be okay
Ashley Xu:Oh yeah, and it's not fair to the other
Joy Blue:not fair and it's exhausting.
Ashley Xu:Oh, it's so exhausting for both people.
Joy Blue:So then I would find myself in these positions with people who idolized me and put me on a pedestal, which then drove me nuts cuz I'm like, I just need to be human here, but I can't cuz I feel like I'm supposed to take care of you. So then I just found myself incredibly lonely because I was just surrounded by people who needed something from me, not people who, it was a mutual two-way friendship. So I've had some pretty big milestones along the way. Like in college, my freshman year, roommates like Hannah, who was on this podcast a while ago, she would look at me and be like, let me take care of you. And I'd be like no. Nobody takes care of me. And she'd look at me and be like, Joyful. And when she said it like that with her eyebrow up, like, o okay, fine, you win. But like that was the beginning of my journey of letting myself be vulnerable. And so much of friendship is meeting someone in their vulnerability
Ashley Xu:Oh, absolutely. And not needing to fix this.
Joy Blue:Yeah, I don't need to fix you. I don't need to have the answers for you, but I can hold space with you.
Ashley Xu:I think that is the most important part of friendship for me. Just being present. Maybe validating someone's feelings and caring about them, but you don't need to do much else, truly, from my perspective, at least.
Joy Blue:Yeah. What have been some of your major forks in the road with how you view friendship?
Ashley Xu:I mean, I think the most major problems I've had with how I view friendships stem mostly just from my childhood of growing up with kind of like emotionally immature like parenting sort of situations. And I think I thought certain behaviors, thoughts, ideas were normal and like healthy, whereas maybe they weren't actually. And I found myself acting in ways that were not the way that I wish that I would have acted. And then also I accepted that behavior from other people. And, it it can wear on you like when you care so much about a person, but also allow people to do things that are hurtful. And then when I struggle with co-dependency, like I struggle to really talk about the things that were impacting me. So I would allow people to cross my boundaries without really talking about it. And then I would get really upset and blow up and yeah, that wasn't fair to the other people, wasn't fair to me. So I feel like I understand my boundaries a lot better now and understand what I need and want. Um, So that's been a big journey for me in growth. What has been some of the forks in the road for you? With friendships?
Joy Blue:well it was interesting while you were talking, the things that kept coming up for me were like boundaries. Like for sake of definition, boundaries is telling somebody what you're going to do, not telling somebody else what to do. And also I just kept hearing the through line of self-worth.
Ashley Xu:Oh, absolutely.
Joy Blue:healthy friendships come and like change in line with your own belief and self-worth. So like the less I thought of myself, the more I allowed myself to be walked over. So I resonate so much with everything you said. And there's a part where like, I remember people looking at me and saying like, you gotta quit running so hard. You need to take care of yourself. And I used that running so hard as a badge of honor. Like, no, I don't need anybody. I don't need space. I don't need to take care of myself. What are you talking about? But really, I look back on all those people along the way who were like, gave me little warning signals. And what they were really saying is, you're worth caring for too.
Ashley Xu:Absolutely.
Joy Blue:It's not just about me caring for other people in my friendships, it's about also receiving care, which is really hard. Oddly enough.
Ashley Xu:So hard. It's probably one of my toughest life journeys is to receive care and attention and time. What has it been like kinda feeling your own internal perception of what your worth is change over time.
Joy Blue:That's a very fascinating question. I mean, so much of it comes down to can I believe that's true of me? Who benefits if I don't believe that's true of me? And what does that mean? So like when I started deciding that I was worth more, I started realizing there are spaces around me that I am actively participating in that are not accepting of who I am, as I am. Like we're coming back to the theme of friendship and like I want to be in a space where I don't have to explain everything about myself. I don't have to justify who I am, and so as I started finding healthier and more progressive friend circles, part of that goes hand in hand with my own inner journey of realizing that I am enough just as I am. Have you experienced that too?
Ashley Xu:Yeah. I feel like I used to view letting people cross my boundaries as like the admission price for being in a community or being in a relationship with someone. And that was,
Joy Blue:price.
Ashley Xu:yeah. Yeah. Like I gave up certain boundaries. I gave up. I just like bit my tongue about certain feelings to have relationships with people because I cared for them so much. And while I might even still care for those people, I realized that my own inner peace was much more valuable than having those relationships. And that was such, that was a hard realization. Probably one of the hardest realizations of my life.
Joy Blue:yeah, absolutely. It's getting to the threshold that is so important to cross, of I will no longer allow the cost to be me.
Ashley Xu:Absolutely. And I realized at a certain point that even if people did unkind things, said unkind things, whatever, what was worse was that, I was continuing that relationship. That I was allowing it to happen. So, I don't blame anyone who I have had those relationships with. I just, I feel like I didn't value my own feelings enough to set boundaries well or to really understand what they needed.
Joy Blue:Isn't it interesting how self-worth goes hand in hand with healthy relationships?
Ashley Xu:Oh my gosh. The biggest component, honestly,
Joy Blue:I don't know if I've necessarily put those together in one sentence until this conversation. Like I've known it inside, but it's just fascinating to see it all laid out on the table.
Ashley Xu:Oh, absolutely, and I feel like holding more space and understanding and kindness for myself has also allowed me to show up more for other people in that same way, which I didn't expect, honestly. I thought spending time on yourself was selfish. I thought, doing self-care sort of things like actual self-care, like taking care of your body and your mental health and just like having joy and fun. I thought that was selfish and I would do everything to try to avoid that. But I've realized over time that loving myself more has helped me to love other people more.
Joy Blue:Yeah, that's beautiful. When I take care of myself, I'm able to show up with you better.
Ashley Xu:Oh, absolutely. How have you noticed your relationships with people have changed as you started really taking care of your mind, body, and your spirit?
Joy Blue:That's such a profound question. I had a tipping point where I realized I led first with what I could do for you, and the moment that I could no longer do something for you, I lost my purpose. And so then I was like, what? Why am I even here? If you don't need me, then I guess I'm disposable. Believing that my worth was only in what I could contribute. So there's been a pretty big journey in people pushing back at me and being like, no, I just I just like you. That's all. And I'm like, but I've done all of these myriad of things for you. Don't you want me to do those again? Like, maybe you'll like me when I do more things for you. And to have present people, grounded people, in my life be like, no, I don't need you to do anything. Just be here with me.
Ashley Xu:You're valuable as who you are as a person. Just right now without having to do anything.
Joy Blue:That's beautiful and so hard to believe sometimes.
Ashley Xu:It's it. Sometimes impossible
Joy Blue:I know because the message that's that so many of us have been brought up in is you are only worth something if you're contributing. That's what capitalism is. I need you to contribute. The only way you have monetary value is when you're doing something. So to intentionally buck the system and be friends with somebody, because I see the beauty in you, and you see the beauty in me, there isn't capitalist value in that but there is human value in that. That's what I wanna do. I wanna walk around and I wanna say I see you as the human you are. Thanks for being here. I see your inherent goodness.
Ashley Xu:Absolutely. I feel so much joy in creating community with friends. I feel like that's been the most life changing thing in my life the last couple of years. Just truly showing up for people and trusting that they want to show up for me and not putting my thoughts, feelings, ideas on what that sort of means. I dunno. I just like people and I feel like it is kind of anti-capitalist to just enjoy spending time with people. It's not about the money that you're spending or, any sort of like appearances. It's just about spending time with humans and feeling that connection that drives us.
Joy Blue:it's not about a transactional benefit, it's about an interpersonal connection
Ashley Xu:Absolutely
Joy Blue:at the end of the day, all of us just want to know that somebody sees us and we matter. And that's what the essence of friendship is. I see you and you matter. Thanks for being in the world with me.
Ashley Xu:I love that. I really need to chew on that. I think mentally that's beautiful.
Joy Blue:What have you noticed lately, or what have you been trying lately with friendships that you of a couple years ago might not have been able to do?
Ashley Xu:I think I am allowing myself to be more vulnerable with people. I think historically I've always been kind of transparent, right? Like I've shared the things going on in my life, the difficult things. But sometimes I've really struggled to share the things that I haven't fully processed. Like I can share things if I've gone over them in therapy and really thought about it and can say like, oh, this stem X, Y, and Z. But when it comes to, having like a really deep emotional feeling um, that I still haven't figured out how I want to, work through, I think, traditionally, I struggle to share that. And I feel really grateful to have friends who hold space for me to exist in all emotional states. And also friends that remind me to have fun and to spark joy. Like I feel like you and Brie in particular are so good at bringing just spontaneity and fun and joy. Like you guys start singing just in the middle of cooking and you start dancing and playing. And it's brought so much happiness in my life. So I appreciate you and really just like the energy that you have and like having your friends. It's very pure and I love it.
Joy Blue:Thank you and also with you, and I feel like it, it would be doing friendship, a dishonor to not put the stipulation in place that the type of vulnerability you're talking about is earned. Not everybody deserves your unprocessed. So what I'm hearing you say is like the transparency, I do the same thing. I know that, there are things I've already processed that people are like, you're so vulnerable. And I'm like, yeah, it doesn't really cost me much to share that with you. But the type of vulnerability we're talking about is earned over time. It is a privilege and an honor to have There's something to be said for small steps of building along the way in friendships and taking incremental leaps of trust. I've done it before where I've just suddenly given somebody all of my trust and that's giving away my agency. That's giving away the essence of who I am and giving, just giving up my power, and I don't wanna do that. So I just wanted to clarify that, what the type of vulnerability we're talking about is mutual, is consenting, and protects the agency of each person in this friendship.
Ashley Xu:Absolutely. I totally agree with that. I feel like there are different stages of friendship and different levels. And all are great and amazing. But I think it has been so valuable for me to be able to just show up as my vulnerable self with the friends that have earned it, and I really appreciate it and I am also there for you in those situations.
Joy Blue:I feel that. What is something you would encourage our listeners to try? What's something you've learned recently or a breakthrough you had in thinking about or processing friendships? I.
Ashley Xu:I think I would recommend, if people are looking for friendships to, I, it sounds cheesy, but like, put yourself out there. There's a period of time after I moved to the Chicago area after the pandemic, I didn't have friends in the area and so it was hard to meet people. And I, downloaded like Bumble BFFs right? And downloading Bumble BFFs like to make friends has truly changed my life and, you know how I show up for myself. Like I went on a bunch of, I guess, friend dates, for lack of better word, and a lot of those people didn't mesh with me and that was okay. It was, I guess, similar to dating. But I kept trying because it was really important for me to find that community. And then I ended up meeting Jack and then through Jack I met a bunch of other people, you and Brie included, and kind of created this little community. And I. Feel like since I'm not super close to my family, I feel like it has been really nice to have that sense of community and just a group of people who want to spend time with other people and like really the effort. So I guess just meet people sometimes it's really easy to just stay inside and to not interact with others.
Joy Blue:Yeah. Believe that you're worth knowing and believe that there are other people out there that are also worth knowing, and it is gonna take a little bit of work to get there. And it's also possible,
Ashley Xu:Absolutely. What is your advice for people who are looking for the friendship connection?
Joy Blue:I would say trust your gut. Be in tune with yourself as you're meeting people. If something feels off to you, trust it. And not for like the vilification of the other person, but just file that and notice it. And if you get little pangs as you're meeting people of like, probably don't share all of that, listen to yourself. Honor yourself in that journey of getting to know new people and of being appropriately vulnerable. Not everyone deserves the fullness of who you are. Not everyone has the honor of holding space for the goodness and the hugeness of who each of us are. And that's okay. It doesn't mean you're too much, it just means not yet.
Ashley Xu:Absolutely. I love hearing about your journey of self-trust. Could you tell me more about what that's been like to really learn to trust yourself, because that's something I am working on too.
Joy Blue:Yeah, it's incredibly hard. I grew up in a tradition of don't trust your body, don't trust your emotions. And so looking back over a lot of the hard periods of my life, I can realize my body was actually telling me things. My body was telling me, don't trust. My body was telling me this is not right. But I didn't know the voice of my body yet. I didn't know the voice inside of me saying, this isn't good for you. I was trained to listen to the voice of the authority outside of me, not the authority inside of me. So, so much of my journey has been to be able to look back and acknowledge those places where I didn't listen and have compassion for that version of Joy, because she didn't know any different. And also apply those learnings to Joy moving forward on seeing what different things I could try this time and seeing like, oh, I think that might be my gut telling me something. How can I take a pause and listen to that? How can I honor what my inner authority is telling me? Even if it means I might be disappointing somebody outside of me.
Ashley Xu:Oh wow. That's tough. Disappointing other people is such a big fear of mine. And I It sounds like it was really hard for you to overcome too.
Joy Blue:It still is, but I've hit the point where I'm no longer willing for the cost to be me. If it costs me compromising who I am to be in a relationship with somebody, I'm not. I'm not willing to go there anymore.
Ashley Xu:I love seeing how much you care about yourself and how much friendship you show for yourself and love that you show for yourself. That's amazing.
Joy Blue:Thank you. I appreciate you honoring that. It's definitely been a journey. This conversation has been so fun, Ashley. Thank you for taking the time to do this with me.
Ashley Xu:Oh, thank you for having me. I always enjoy talking with you. I feel like you really make me think, so thank you for having me.
Joy Blue:So Here We Are. I am so glad that you all got a small taste of the goodness that is my friend, Ashley. I loved our conversation today. It was so meta in so many ways. We talked about creating safe spaces for others and ourselves. While we were actively doing that with each other. So much of friendship is creating space to listen. Taking time to truly hear what the other person is conveying while also receiving that in return. Thank you for the gift of your friendship. Ashley, I look forward to continuing to learn alongside you. If you've got a flavor of nerd that you want me to celebrate, I would love to hear all about it. So go ahead and email me at herewearethepodcast@gmail.com and tell me everything. I love taking time to sit and make space for nerd to be celebrated. If you really liked this podcast and want to financially support what I'm doing head on over to patreon.com, search for here we are the podcast and sign up for one of the many beautifully written support tiers that I'm proud of. So until next time, don't forget that curiosity wins. And the world needs more nerds. Bye