What if the love you harbor for the outdoors could be as profound as the bond you share with your dog? On our latest episode, we sit down with CGA member Steve, a seasoned outdoorsman with a wealth of wisdom to share on retriever training. Brought up in the embrace of nature, Steve’s journey with retriever training is a tale worth your time. Be it the tales of his childhood or the significant role his father played in nurturing his passion for hunting, Steve lays it all out for listeners, opening new perspectives on the complexities and joys of dog ownership.
Dive into the heartwarming stories of our Labrador companions, their diverse training experiences, and their hunting capabilities. The thrill of seeing Daisy, Steve's fourth lab, successfully retrieve, and the joy of her first duck hunt encapsulates the essence of our conversation. The challenges we've faced due to health issues and the lessons we've learned from our obedience training journey underscore the necessity of continuous learning and adaptation in the world of retriever training.
Tune in for an exciting recount of Daisy's first hunting adventures at Ringneck Ranch in Michigan. We wrap up our episode with Steve's enlightening journey of training his retriever, emphasizing the importance of a solid foundation in obedience. Join us for this thrilling adventure and take home nuggets of wisdom that can make your experience with your retriever more enriching. Steve's insights into the commitment and resilience required for success are sure to inspire all who aspire to master this profound bond between hunter and dog.
What if the love you harbor for the outdoors could be as profound as the bond you share with your dog? On our latest episode, we sit down with CGA member Steve, a seasoned outdoorsman with a wealth of wisdom to share on retriever training. Brought up in the embrace of nature, Steve’s journey with retriever training is a tale worth your time. Be it the tales of his childhood or the significant role his father played in nurturing his passion for hunting, Steve lays it all out for listeners, opening new perspectives on the complexities and joys of dog ownership.
Dive into the heartwarming stories of our Labrador companions, their diverse training experiences, and their hunting capabilities. The thrill of seeing Daisy, Steve's fourth lab, successfully retrieve, and the joy of her first duck hunt encapsulates the essence of our conversation. The challenges we've faced due to health issues and the lessons we've learned from our obedience training journey underscore the necessity of continuous learning and adaptation in the world of retriever training.
Tune in for an exciting recount of Daisy's first hunting adventures at Ringneck Ranch in Michigan. We wrap up our episode with Steve's enlightening journey of training his retriever, emphasizing the importance of a solid foundation in obedience. Join us for this thrilling adventure and take home nuggets of wisdom that can make your experience with your retriever more enriching. Steve's insights into the commitment and resilience required for success are sure to inspire all who aspire to master this profound bond between hunter and dog.
Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy online resources to help you train your retriever.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Build From here podcast. On this episode, I've just got to say it's an honor. I've got CGA member Steve. I've asked on here and before I bring him on I just want to honor him and just celebrate and congratulate him on all that he's completed with his retriever. He's made it a long way so far with his dog week 43 of 52 plus.
Speaker 2:Just Steve in general is an incredible man. He'd sent me an email one day just mentioning that he had been praying for our family. When that just stood out to me because I'm a man of faith and I just really greatly appreciate that and just knowing that we have people out there that are doing that, we started talking. I was emailing back and forth and then hopped on the phone and we've just developed a great friendship since then. Just to hear his story with his dog and what they've accomplished and how he's enjoying his retriever is awesome. I do look forward to sharing that with you, as well as sharing what he's learned along the way. I think you'll learn a lot from his wisdom and I really think, as you listen to this episode, be paying close attention to it. I think what you're going to hear here will make a difference for you. I think you'll be able to take some of these nuggets home with you and make your experience with the retriever better. With that said, steve, welcome to the show. How are you? It's good to have you on.
Speaker 3:It's a privilege to be here with you, Josh. I'm so appreciative of you, your family and Cornerstone, and just the deepening relationship that continues to unfold. It's great to be with you today.
Speaker 2:It is great. It's great to be here with you as well. Before we get going, let's just hit just an easy, fun question. We talked about it a little bit today, but it sounds like you did a training session this morning and we'll want to talk through that real quick and then we'll dive into your story from there.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, I've kind of got this routine every morning that I get up and I let Daisy out, she sleeps up in the bedroom with us in the crate and we go on a mile walk. We come back and I eat my steel cut oatmeal, she takes a bit of a rest and then the next thing she's looking for is hey, let's get in the suburban and let's go do some work. Every morning we're out for, I'd say, probably an hour or so that's not all training time but usually get a good 15, 20 minutes in and then just continue to walk her off lead and let her be a dog and be able to experience the woods and the smells and everything else. That's a fun experience for her. We both look forward to that every day. As it's often said, a tired dog is a good dog, so that's a good way to get started every day.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's a great way to get started in there, is that? Saying is absolutely true? You don't want to find out the opposite. Not tired dog. A well-rested dog is a little bit wild, so they're fun to be with. Steve, let's go back to the beginning. Let's go back way back to the beginning, before we even talk about dogs and stuff. Have you always been an outdoorsman? What's the story there? Have you always enjoyed outdoors? Is that something that happened later in life?
Speaker 3:No, that's, I would say, from probably birth. I enjoyed the outdoors. I know there's some photos if we go back many, many, many years ago almost 72 years if you will if my mom's got me bundled up in a snow suit in the snow in a stroller. So I grew up in a small town in South Central Michigan and lived on a lake until I was in third grade and I'll tell you what for a kid being around water and your dad teaching you to swim and just all of those memories and seeing him come back from being out on lake fishing or hunting or things of that nature. I mean, there's just nothing like being outdoors and just seeing the beauty of creation all around. So that goes back a long time for my love for the outdoors.
Speaker 2:Wow, Now what about hunting? Is that something that? Who got you into hunting? Is that something that your dad got you into, or did that come a little bit later? Was it fishing or what?
Speaker 3:No, actually that came, I'm going to say, early in life. My dad started taking me pheasant hunting and squirrel hunting at age probably four or five. That's awesome and it's very interesting how technology and everything's unfolded since then. But my grandma made me a red hunting vest, and so if you can imagine being four or five years old and you've got this red hunting vest and the game pouch she lined with clear vinyl, and so dad would take me out and we'd go pheasant hunting and we'd be walking through the corn stalks and he would always take the lead. He'd have me behind him and every now and then he'd stop to listen. When he stopped to listen, he'd put his the hand that didn't have the gun, his left hand, back behind him, just like maybe the Indians did, to like let's just stop right here, wait.
Speaker 3:So I learned a lot about silence, I learned about following dad, and then we'd go squirrel hunting and he'd have me sit on the ground Next to him, and so there was what I would say at age four or five, before there were formal hunter safety classes, dad was introducing me to that part of life. I was probably a bit of a shadow, but I just learned from him that, hey, every time we come to Barbara Fence, before we go over that fence, I'm going to unload my gun, I'm going to set it up so it's pointing off in a different direction. We'll get over the fence, we'll reload the gun. You know I always, you know I'm holding it so that it's. He was holding it so that it was away from him. And it was just those teachable moments that just came up time and time and time again.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:And then the highlight of that is you know dad shot a pheasant or shot a squirrel. Well, guess who's game bag that went in. So now you got this little guy with feathers sticking out. You know the tails, feathers sticking out at one end of it. Or for squirrel hunting, the. You know the tail of the squirrel sticking out, the. You know the other end.
Speaker 3:So that really gave me I mean, it gave me time with my dad. Wow, and I think for a boy that's one of the most precious things that there are and a precious gift that a dad can give his son Wow, and that's time with him. So then one day we're out and we're squirrel hunting and he sites a squirrel up in a you know really tall oak tree. I'm sitting next to him. He's got his Remington 11 sweet 16 with him. He pulls me up on his lap as me site down the barrel on the squirrel and pull the trigger. So at age four or five, that was the first kill shot. I have to give credit to Dad the way he set that up and obviously he took the recoil on it. But those were just, I mean, some really special times Learn what it was all about being able to be outside and being able to be outside with somebody that really loved me and who I love. You know him.
Speaker 2:Wow, man, that is incredible, I love. Obviously I relate to that because my dad and I but I think a lot of people listening to that are probably gonna relate to that in some way or another. That's just special. So he got you in at an early age. I'm sure after you're probably hooked, but I'm sure that that first kill shot pretty much really got you hooked at that point.
Speaker 3:Well, it was an interesting setup, to say the least, I think similar to dog training. You know, if you wanna have success you've gotta set it up. That's right, and Dad certainly set that up.
Speaker 2:Wow, did he have dogs? Did y'all have dogs growing up? What?
Speaker 3:I had a couple of beagles when I was really small, but you know I really don't recall a whole lot about those and I think probably about four age, four or five, as our family started to grow and expand, if you will, that mom and dad didn't have dogs until later in life and Dad, I wouldn't say, gave up honey. But in third grade we moved in town and just with his work and other things going on, and I had a brother who was born disabled and who since passed away, and so Dad's focus shifted a bit. But those early years, you know, he loved that and he certainly instilled the love that I have for it, wow, in what we did.
Speaker 2:Well, fast forwarding a little bit. How, where did the idea of a dog come in? So did you have a friend or someone that you just saw magazines or videos talking about the dog. What kind of attracted you to the idea of having a hunting dog?
Speaker 3:Well, when I was in college I was driving back and forth probably about a 30 minute commute and Pat and I got married just as I got out of high school and that. So I'm commuting to college and I see along the side of a road here Labrador retriever puppies.
Speaker 3:Well gosh that sounds pretty cool. I think I'll get a lab. So I can't say that it was a lot of research or anything. But anyway, the first dog was a you know was a yellow lab and really didn't spend a lot of time training her or hunting her. In fact, I think the you know, the only hunting experience that I had with her was, you know, after I'd get out of class I'd throw a gunny sack full of decoys and, you know, we'd head out to Little Pond. And there's one day, at Sam, he's with me and you know, I drop a duck. It's the first duck and Sam's looking out there. He's not quite sure what to do and he's still sitting next to me. So I look around and say, well, you know, okay, well, how can I get him moving? So I pick up in here a corn, toss it out there. And he just nailed that.
Speaker 3:The next thing I know he's back and he's got the ear of corn in my lap and the duck's still out there.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:So that's probably a testament to you know what lack of training can do, but he was a great dog. If there was a dock diving championship because we're living at the, you know, back at the lake at that time, you know he loved the water. But just with school and you know, working while I was going to school really didn't take a whole lot of time. You know hunting. So the next dog had the privilege of working, you know, for caterpillars. We moved from Southern Michigan to Peoria, illinois, and then to Louisville, kentucky, and a cat salesman in Louisville gave me a lab. Wow, and that was an amazing dog.
Speaker 3:It came out of a pointing lab line and so I got back into doing some pheasant hunting in Illinois and that dog, without any formal training at all, was just incredible as it would lock right up on a pheasant, leg up, tail out, bird would move, the dog would move, the bird would stop, the dog would stop, the bird would flush, the dog was ready to go and would bring back and retrieve and would go through briars and thorns and everything else and just love to hunt. And but again, really, you know there didn't have the wherewithal or even think about, well, how do you train a dog like this? So, unfortunately, that dog, susie, you know, we had to put down because of cancer, and so then we got to third lab and the third lab was Abby and what we didn't realize was that Abby had a thyroid problem. And so the first few times you know, going out with some buddies and hunting pheasants, and that after about 15 minutes she was walking behind me, Just wow.
Speaker 3:And we didn't realize until about age seven what the problem was, and we got her on thyroid medication and so that was. You know, that was a third lab and I thought, you know what, that is probably the last lab that we'll ever have, because it's just too hard to, you know, walk into a vet to put a dog down and walk back out with a leash. That's tough.
Speaker 3:Particularly after you know you bond with a dog, and so I thought that would be it. Well, an interesting thing happened. What, a little over two years or so ago, that my son, who lives outside of Atlanta, said to his kids look, if you guys are very involved in athletics and things that nature, if you'll work out all three of you every day for I think it was a six months or a year we'll get a dog, which was kind of incredible because Joel doesn't even like dogs, and or didn't at the time. And lo and behold, what do the kids do? Is the kids work out every single day. And so Joel's got a fulfill his promise.
Speaker 3:So he comes up here to Peoria and gets a lab out of the same kennel that my daughter has to her second lab, and before they go back to Atlanta, joel and the three boys and the puppy are at our house for two nights and Joel leaves and a couple of days later my daughter calls me and she says Chris, who owned the kennel that they came out of. She said Chris is gonna have another litter of pups here. Do you have any interest in being put on her list? I said to Pat, my wife what would you think if we got another dog. She says Steve, you gotta be kidding me.
Speaker 3:At this stage in life you're retired from Caterpillar, and so a couple hours later I'd filled out the application provided all the information so forth and so on as to family life and maybe hunting and that sometime and said to Pat well, I sent the application in and Chris came back and said yep, we'll move you up on the list. And I told Pat I said we're gonna get a dog.
Speaker 2:So that's how it happened that's why.
Speaker 3:So that's how it happened and that's how Daisy came to live with us.
Speaker 2:Wow, so Daisy came, I guess. So from the rear past experience it sounds like you didn't do a whole lot of like formal training with the dogs, maybe just some just regular stuff. Is that the case?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was the case and the thing that I knew going into this and I've gotta be honest with you, josh when we got Daisy I thought, well, maybe there'd be an opportunity to hunt, but that really wasn't the driver. But one thing that I knew was that if I was going to get a dog, that I was really going to invest in spending the time with it to be able to train it, and so that was something right from the start that we made the decision, rather than pick the dog up at eight weeks, we'd wait to 10 weeks. We'd give her an extra two weeks. That the kennel she came out of and they provided a bit of a training, and then the kennel owner's daughter spent some time with me, and so we were off on the training journey and then it was like, okay, we're getting started, but where do I go from here?
Speaker 2:That's right. Where did you get from there? What was the rest of the day?
Speaker 3:One of my strength finder themes if anybody's familiar with Clifton strength finders is learner, responsibility and achiever, and so the learner aspect is okay. Well, I got to find out everything I can about dog training and again thinking primarily along the obedience side, and so started watching some videos and ordering some books. And I came across an individual through the videos that he had, that I thought maybe he can provide me with some good foundational puppy to obedience training. And he had a great online program and also had it set up so that I filled out a journal. We both shared it on Google Docs.
Speaker 3:He gave me some great feedback in there and so I really started making progress on those foundational elements and I got to the point after about a year that I said well, you help me with retriever training, wow. And he said you know what he said, that's really not my niche. And he said I'm focused primarily on obedience. So then the question is okay, well, where do I go from here? So I'm back on Amazon looking for retriever training books, and then I'm finding out oh gosh, there are different methods of the training. There's the traditional approach, there's the positive reinforcement and, up to that point in time, everything that I had done with Daisy had been primarily on the positive reinforcement with corrections and the clicker and rewards.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like, okay, well, where do I go from here? So I'm searching around now on the internet and I come across Southern O'Kennell and so I'm looking at that and it's like, oh gosh, it doesn't look like they're set up to train dogs that haven't come out of the kennel. But it happens we've got a lake home up in Michigan. About 30 miles from the lake house is Southern Oaks North, which is now Southern Oaks Great Lakes. So I called up, got ahold of Don, went up and visited with Don and Wally and to see if they could give me some help. And as we talked through that I just didn't have the heart, after having a dog that we'd spent so much time bonding with, to send her away for two, three, four months.
Speaker 3:And the positive thing about that was I didn't understand at the time the connection with Southern Oaks and you and Barton and Cornerstone. And so it's like, okay, I'm going to sign up with Cornerstone program. So I looked in there, I hit you know, okay, I'm going to sign up for the basic retrieve thing. And 30 minutes into it it's like, oh my gosh, this is really high quality stuff. The next thing I know I'm talking to Abigail and saying would it be possible to upgrade to 52 plus.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:And so that was kind of the journey that took me, you know, from really not having done any dog training in the past into really having a very robust training program to help me with.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's amazing, Just the journey, that kind of where he ended up. So when you ended up kind of getting with Cornerstone where so it sounds like you probably had obedience pretty solid when did you kind of pick up and kind of where did you? Where did you go from there?
Speaker 3:Well, I can't say I started at the beginning because I didn't have, you know, an eight-week old pup. But I went back and I can't think what week it was in but rather than jump in someplace in the middle, you know, went back and said, okay, you know, I've got a place board. We've been working on steadiness, things of that nature, but I really want to spend some time on this scene where we're at seeing what she's doing, so I don't miss anything in the process. And so that part went pretty quick. And then the part that you know getting into the retrieve part and going to Home Depot and purchasing what 25 feet of you know fencing and all the stakes and everything else, and beginning to introduce her to okay, this is what we're working on.
Speaker 2:We're working on now. So that's kind of where the how long did it take the light bulb to click for her for some retrieving stuff? When you, when you started transitioning from because I guess up until that point it had been mostly obedience, maybe some fun retrieves when was there a point to where you felt like she started off, as there's a little more to this than than what she had known?
Speaker 3:I think from. Yeah, I'm going to say that the journey with Daisy has been an evolving journey, yeah, so I'm not sure if there necessarily have been those light bulb moments for her, but there certainly have been a number of light bulb moments for me.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's talk about some of those.
Speaker 3:So you know, before I got into this and with Cornerstone and the community, I didn't know the difference between a bench bread or, you know, conformance bread dog and a field trial hunt test dog and and so I'm finding out. Oh wait a minute, you know, daisy has come out of a bench bread line and so this is a little bit different approach in this. And I think somewhere along the line and this is one of the things I just really appreciate about Cornerstone is I think it was sometime back last year there were the calls. You know we were beyond the puppy stage but with Chris Roland out of New York and that yes yep, and hearing that Chris had, you know, one of maybe several dogs that he's got.
Speaker 3:That was bench bread, Absolutely as to, okay, the process and everything is solid, but sometimes you got to think a little bit differently about the approach to take.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:And sometimes you got to work to build energy into a dog that a little bit by nature and because their breeding is a little bit laid back. And in fact the breeder told me when we picked her up as a pup you know he's a pretty mellow dog and and so working through that and the light bulb coming on for me is to okay. I've really got to be paying attention to how I'm approaching training from a leadership standpoint to be able to connect with her and see these things begin to come together.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's fantastic. I love what we're talking about there too. We can even dive into this a little bit deeper, just kind of your thought process, some things that led up to that, because ultimately, I feel like that's kind of our goal, for people is not just to use the course but to do what you're saying. You got to sometimes look at things from a little bit of a different angle. You got to approach it differently depending on the dog, and when you get to where you're thinking on that level, you're you're thinking on the right level, when you're starting to realize, okay, this dog, I need to approach it this way, I need to respond this way. Um, I think that's awesome.
Speaker 2:So it it sounds to me like at some point of this journey, that kind of, as you said, has evolved. You know, every little thing, every little thing you learn just kind of helped you get to where you needed to be. But, as you connected with Chris from the community starting to realize, okay, well, this type of dog we need to approach, we need to approach this way, that's, uh, that gets me excited, because that's that's my ultimate goal for people. I think, uh, as they use our courses, as to get to where they can think for themselves, and even to that level and make decisions, uh, for themselves, uh, which is which is ultimately what we want. So congratulations on that. That's fantastic. Uh, would you say there's been some more light bulb moments like that, anything that's just stood out to you like you, you realize, but even just specifically with your dog, we're like, oh wow, maybe I should try it this way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I maybe up at a higher level. Um, you know, we often heard said train the dog in front of you. Right.
Speaker 3:And I think it's so easy, given my competitive nature and perhaps competitive nature of a number of other people to become, begin to come jealous about what somebody else is doing or seeing what their dog is doing. And so I went through a phase a bit in there, you know, I said to Pat. I said, well, you know, maybe we should get another dog. And Pat said to me Steve, you can have one wife and one dog, or you can have two dogs, but you cannot have one wife and two dogs.
Speaker 2:So I was like okay train the dog in front of me. She taught you that one real well. She taught me that one real well is.
Speaker 3:I need to be focused on the desire that I have to be able to bring the very best that Daisy can be out of Daisy and who. She is Not somebody else's dog, not trying to compare myself, you know, as an amateur, you know, trainer, handler, with the first dog to somebody else. And just as I was thinking about that, even this weekend, there's a oh a passage, I think, at the apostle Paul, you know, wrote in Galatians, you know, in essence says don't be, don't compare yourself to others. Do the very best with what it is that you've been given. Wow, it's like, okay, I'm blessed to have this dog, I'm best blessed to be able to have the relationship that I do with her. Now, how do I work on helping her achieve her potential?
Speaker 3:And so, I think, being able to frame it in that, those big picture terms, and then also, you know, one of the times, since one of the things that I've focused on since, you know, my retirement from cat has been leadership, training and development and being able to take some of what I've learned from there and apply it in dog training, right, and so that's been another piece of this of being able to say, you know, wait a minute.
Speaker 3:Before I look at the dog and what the dog is or isn't doing, I've got to look at myself, say what is it that I'm communicating? And so if, josh, you and I are having this conversation and what I'm communicating, the message of I'm communicating, you have 55% of that's coming through body language and 38% tone of voice and 7% the words. Then, all of a sudden, I'm thinking okay, when I'm not walking with this dog, who's probably a lot more fine tune at reading body language and tone of voice, I've really got to be paying attention to myself and the leadership that I'm bringing and, rather than be frustrated or upset, stepping back and thinking about okay, what are my thoughts, what are my feelings, what's my action, reaction and what do I need to be adjusting as I'm looking at whatever it is that we're working on to be able to help the dog get it.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic. I want to hit on those, the stats you just mentioned, because I remember a few weeks ago or so when we were talking about let's talk through those stats real quick, where you got some of that, and maybe expound upon that concept a little bit more, because that would, I think, specifically talking about the percentages and then kind of talking about understanding those communications will. I think it's just revolutionary just to think about it from that idea, because what you're talking about here is deep stuff, but it's also simple. It's not too complex, it's easy to understand once you get it and you realize, oh, this is what's going on. It's very simple to implement it. You just have to be aware of it. And when you told me that, I was like, wow, that's got to be talked about specifically, and so I'm glad you brought that up the stats specifically.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I've had the privilege to work with a guy by the name of Ford Taylor who founded Transformational Leadership, and I've learned a lot from him on that. But some of the research has been done. Again back to communications. Is you know, when we're communicating with each other, with our family or those that we're working with, that the message that's communicated? 55% of it is body language, 38% tone of voice and 7% words and when those three things aren't in alignment, then I don't have credibility. Wow.
Speaker 3:So then, coming back and looking at it from a dog standpoint, if I'm locking eyes with the dog and one of the things that we started with Daisy very early on was look right here when I click and hold the treat out off to my side I want you to be looking at my eyes, that's right.
Speaker 3:And somebody once said the. You know, the eyes are the window into the soul. So if I'm out working with her and I get frustrated and all of a sudden I move into a closed posture or things that I'm not even aware of, that you started told me. When I gave those figures to her, she said yeah, steve, every time we're sitting at the dinner table and I can look and you've got your eyebrows raised, I know there's something else going on in here. That's funny right there. So that's the part of saying I have to manage myself before I can really look and get the best of what it is that I'm looking for within, you know, within our family, within the relationship that I have with Pat or with Daisy.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's awesome and that's man that's so powerful. I think some of that, in my perspective, some of that comes from learning, from hearing and listening to see what others do and following the videos, but some of that's just going to come through experience and just out there experiencing it and having that realization. But by hearing what you've said, if someone's working their dog, I bet right now, as people are listening to this, they're having little aha moments, thinking, oh well, that kind of makes a little more sense now they're relating it to their experience, whatever that experience may be. Specifically, I have a feeling people are thinking about that one moment right now where they realize, oh okay, that's why my dog wasn't getting it right there just by the realization that you know everything needs to be lining up. Those three different pieces of communication need to line up so that you can be effective, and that's one thing.
Speaker 2:I think we like to keep things simple for specific reasons. The less information you have to communicate, the better, as long as it suffices and it gets the point across to the dog. The less is more, so to speak. And so how do you feel like your growth as a trainer has come from pre-cornerstone to cornerstone, as you kind of went through that. Do you feel like following the videos has helped you identify some of those areas to where you can respond better or you can communicate differently to your dog? Because for more I mean what we're hearing already. I mean, I would say, without question. I'm just curious if you've got any specific scenarios that come to mind.
Speaker 3:Well, a couple of the scenarios that come to mind really involve watching you work with your dog in there, Because and this is what I really appreciate about the authenticity is Violet's obviously a high drive dog in comparison to Daisy, who's more on the mellow side, if you will.
Speaker 3:So to see Violet head out, pick something up and then make a big loop around or wait a minute, she's headed off in a little bit different direction, okay.
Speaker 3:But watching the way in which you've handled that, josh, and not becoming upset, maintaining your presence in the moment and staying calm, the correction that needs to be made, being able to make it in the right manner so that she understands and I've said that there's a difference between discipline and punishment, and I know that we use the term, you know positive and negative punishment and those are the vernacular within the dog training world.
Speaker 3:But I like to think of it that discipline is to elicit the right behavior. Yeah, I love that when sometimes in the area of punishment, punishment becomes more about me than it does about the dog, because I may be angry, I may be upset, so this is about me, I'm gonna get what I want, as opposed to being able to say, wait a minute. How do we address, how do we correct, how do we discipline to get the behavior that we're looking for? And that's where I see that time and time again, and in fact saw it just as I was going back through week 43, again is dogs are gonna, dogs are dogs and so they're not always gonna respond just in a mechanical, methodical way, and that's what makes training, I think, so interesting, such a challenge and also so much fun.
Speaker 2:Right, oh, that's awesome. I knew that the listeners were beginning good nuggets here, but I love the way you presented that. I may even start using that moving forward, because that's so clear. Thinking about punishment versus discipline, you know kind of the same. You know, as you said, the dog training lingo is punishment, but the goal is behavior change. How can we get this to work out right? And discipline is just course correction. So that's, I really love how you presented that. That's fantastic. That's fantastic stuff. What's been one of your greatest moments with Daisy so far along this journey?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the greatest moments goes back, what two weeks ago? So so we've invested time. I'm bought in the cornerstone process, you know, maybe taking two weeks as opposed to one week to get through whatever the week is. So it's, you know, kind of slow and steady. I once heard it said slow is smooth and smooth is fast. And so now it comes time to reality.
Speaker 3:You know we're around week 41, 42, and it's like, okay, do I hunt her this year? That's right. Okay, the question that everybody poses. And it's like, okay, well, you know, she's two and three quarters years old, she does great around gunfire, she understands her tree. We've had her running through, you know, decoys on the ground. We've used the dummy launcher on the water through decoys. Let's go see what the real thing looks like.
Speaker 3:So I got a hold of, you know, a couple of friends and there's a place up in Michigan called the Ringneck Ranch, and so my friend Kurt and a retired vet that we call Doc, the three of us went to the Ringneck Ranch a couple of weeks ago and got with the guy who had that and said look, we've got a dog here that hasn't ever hunted and we'd like to put out 10 birds. And so they put 10 pheasants out, primarily roosters, marked where they were, you know at, with some ribbons in that, not exactly where they're at, but you know kind of in the general vicinity where they last, at least, put them. And so Daisy is now, for the first time, moving into the real world and the real thing, oh man. And of course the question that goes through your mind is okay, is all of this going to come together? Okay, and what I found was within, and the setup on here was interesting because there's, if you think of, long rows of corn that have been harvested, that are about 20 yards wide, and then probably 10 to 15 yards of sorghum that hasn't been touched, and the birds are in the sorghum.
Speaker 3:And you know I'm thinking ahead of time, okay, based of what I'm heard of, you know, members, weekends and things of that nature. Do I do a walk up? Do I let her hunt? How do I approach that? And it's like she and I are walking down the middle of the sorghum and so this can't be a walk up, I've got to let her hunt. That's right. And the other thing was, I think, wisely, so I chose not to carry a gun because it's like, look, man, I can't concentrate on trying to do two things at once. If my focus is on handling the dog, then that's what I need to do at handling the dog. And so we're probably 50, 75 yards in we haven't got to the birds yet and the guy who owns the Ringneck Ranch and one of his guides pull up alongside of us and the first thing he says is is he's watching Daisy and she's moving about five to 15 yards out of front of her.
Speaker 3:And if I say here she's right back in close man. She's back out here. She's back in close Whistle. She's back in close. Guy looks over me. And the two of them said we take that dog from you any day. You want us to.
Speaker 3:And I'm thinking oh my gosh, these are guys who run dogs every day and they're watching a dog in her first hunt. Maybe there's really something here. So long story short. Out of the birds that we put out, she had the opportunity for four retrieves and this again was a learning experience for me and her the first one that she got, so this is the first time she's had pheasants and pheasants in her mouth. I moved in too quickly and took it from her, and Doc says to me you should have let her have that a little bit longer. That's right.
Speaker 3:So it's like so I'm processing that. The next two that they put down, she delivered to hand. Oh wow, and I'm thinking this is amazing. The fourth one that we put down. Now I'm processing what happened on the first one. That's like okay, I'm gonna let her have it. Well, she ends up chomping through, breaking skin, et cetera. And so that was not a retrieved to hand.
Speaker 3:But again, I think what it did was it provided that learning opportunity for me as to okay, how do I know how to, how do I now approach this? And so that was just one of those moments of wow. She does have what it takes the dummy launcher and that that she really gets excited about. This is coming together, wow. So then two days later, we take her duck on and we build a blind in front of the lake house. Back in, look out the lake house picture window and you can see the blind that I built out of pallets from Home Depot on top of a couple of sections of dock.
Speaker 3:I put out and again I didn't take a gun with me, the guy that was hunting with me. But I said, hey, will you help me learn to hunt ducks? And he said, yeah, I'd be glad to. So he's calling it's one of those kind of bluebird days there's not a whole lot happening, ducks haven't started to really push through yet from the north, and he drops a mallard about 40 yards out. Oh, wow, wow. And so, anyway, daisy is now swimming the mallard's probably about 50 yards out. She sees it through the decoys. She heads out, picks it up, turns it around. The 45 yards are so directly back. I'm standing in the water with the waiters and she delivers to hand. So I don't have a lot of experience with her yet, josh, but those are two moments that just stand out for me. And, as I said to somebody, you know what Watching is great. Being with a dog and watching them may top shooting birds.
Speaker 2:Well, that was a question. Oh, that's amazing, and it could have gone so much differently for you. You know Everybody's first hunts don't necessarily go like that. What I love? Well, I love everything about that Number one that gets me fired up. I almost brought a little tears in my eyes just because it was. You know you make those moments and I know what it takes to get there.
Speaker 2:But you know specifically the pheasants talking through your thinking okay, how to work through this and the dogs number one doing well, but even being able to work through the small details and not just thinking about things generally. I think that's the one thing that just gets me fired up to see that you know all the work that you have put in has developed you as a trainer, to see that you're making incredible decisions in the field. You're thinking on a different level. You're not thinking about from just an average perspective out there, you're thinking at that next level okay, how can we tune this up? Even in the moment you're taking the excitement, you're able to manage that and you're able to kind of continue to train your dog, cause really your first, your dog's first few hunts are still going to be training and really every hunt is a training experience. But being able to take specifically pheasant hunting cause, that's pretty exciting and chaotic, being able to take that and do it but that be one of the first tests, is incredible. And then to see that, that first mallard retrieve I remember when you texted that to me, seeing that picture in the video, that was just so exciting to see.
Speaker 2:So that's a and it's kind of the moment where it all comes together. You know, in the back of your mind, like you said, you're thinking all right, here we go. You know there's always that before you before you take that first leap. It's it's either going to work or it's not. So let's see, let's see how it goes. And it clearly has. It's worked pretty well for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that that's also a testimony to the process that cornerstone has and being able to follow the process. Because, if I go back to the number of reps that we've put in time and time and time again, and being able to set up on the shoreline with the winger, zinger and the decoys out in the water and for here to hear the you know the primer fire and see that launch and be able to go out, it's just repetition, repetition, repetition. And then we move into situation and says, okay, now here's a new thing that we're doing and it's not the launcher, and so just being able to have that foundation and continue to I think as, as you say so importantly just continue to build, continue to build, build from here, build from here Don't be shooting for the stars, but build from here is really important.
Speaker 2:You know one thing too, I want to highlight that you said there is you know you're talking about the number of reps and I feel like a lot of times outsiders looking in or thinking you know that this course is for the dog. You know it. It's really not, it's actually more for the handler. All those reps give you the opportunity. I mean it is for the dog, don't get me wrong, but it's more so for the trainer in your case. All those reps gave you the opportunity to learn, to develop, to learn to, like you said, do new things.
Speaker 2:You know, once you get into those later weeks, you're doing something new almost every single week.
Speaker 2:You're learning how to adapt and overcome on the fly and then, just like you, went on a hunt hunts are never, they typically never go exactly like you're going to think Something's always different.
Speaker 2:A bird, I mean, they just they just do crazy things. But having the ability to adapt on the fly, I think, is what a lot, of, a lot of things I want to highlight too is the number of reps that you put. It gives you the experience, gives you the opportunity to to do well, like I said you're, I just I'm stoked to hear your thought process as you're talking through the hunt and how you're thinking, because, again, like I said, that's just a different level of thinking, that you know, if you're just average, really going at something and you're not putting as much focus on it as you've put, as much diligence and consistency, that you just won't be able to think on that level. And being on that level allows your dog to reach its full potential. So that just gets me extremely fired up and that's just incredible. I know you've got to be looking forward to some more hunts. When's your next? When's your next hunt?
Speaker 3:Well, the yeah, the next time will be what this is? Thanksgiving week next week. Yeah, the week after that.
Speaker 2:So oh, fantastic. Yeah, that's exciting. That's exciting. Wow, I'm trying to. There's just so much good things on this one. Wow, I'm just, I'm just stoked and stunned also just by some of the things you've said. I feel like this is absolutely an episode worth going back and listening to a good bit, just because there's just so much good, so much good things there.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you this question before we kind of land the plane, so to speak, and get some of your final thoughts. You know, did this journey I know you said it was kind of an evolving journey, but did you end up kind of where you thought you would, or did things go how you thought they would, or did you have to go? You know, did you have to travel? Did it things look a bit different than the initial expectation, so to speak? Maybe not necessarily, I guess from step to step, because I know you said it kind of evolved every step along the way. But does that make sense to things, that things kind of go like you thought they would, or did it go a little bit different? You had to go from a different angle at times.
Speaker 3:That's a really good question because for somebody who likes to have a plan and just have a concrete vision as to here's where I want to be which I know a number of people that's exactly what they've got. For me, it was more on how do I bring the best out of the dog and her capabilities and, very importantly, I know I'm pretty sure we don't think like dogs and dogs don't think like humans. Okay, but if I put my human thought process into the dog, of being able to say, hey, you know what, from a dog's perspective, this is really a fun journey. This is who I was created to be. We're having fun doing it, and so that was the vision that I had. What I didn't have without the help of Cornerstone was seeing what's the process to be able to get from here to there.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's a little bit like the duck blind that we build up at the Lake House in Michigan. It's like, okay, well, I want to be in the water, I can be close to the house. I can't hunt on the land because of the ordinances for hunting in subdivisions, things of that nature. And it's like, you know, I'm looking one day and it's like, well, here are some pallets left over from the mulch at Home Depot. I don't know what they look like when they're turning them on the side. Huh, I wonder what it would look like when you put them on top of a dock. I wonder what they look like when you brush them in. And so, like it was, I'd like to hunt ducks. I'd like to have a blind. I'd like to have a blind on the water close to house, but it evolved as to how to get there, wow.
Speaker 3:And so I think the same thing happens on this journey of saying I think I might want to hunt, I'd like to see the dog live out its potential Obedience has to be foundational to it. And then moving along on that journey and saying, okay, we're late. A foundation she's at about 18 months. How do I go to the next step? Who can help me in the process? And then just taking each of those steps of faith in there and I refer oftentimes to this guy by the name of Apostle Paul, who lived like 2000 years ago in that biblical time, and he's writing this letter to people in Thessalonica and he's commending on their journey of faith, in their labor of love, and it's like you know what Life is a journey of faith. You can't see around every corner, that's right.
Speaker 3:All the answers going into it. You know where you want ahead, but it's taken the step and the next step and the next step and the second thing in there, the labor of love. It's like, okay, I've got to look at these steps that the dog's taking, the steps that I'm taking, and why is it that I'm really invested in this? And when something becomes a labor of love, I think that that's where the passion comes from and I think that that's what I see so much within. The cornerstone community is people truly have a love and a passion for what they're doing. Put those things together with the process. The results turn out pretty good and I think the dogs have fun in the process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so too, and that's what it's about, and the trainers too. You know it's. I mean, for me, I want to have fun in the process. I like to have fun, and I want my dogs to enjoy it too, because if they're not having fun, it's not really that fun for me either. You know what I'm saying, so that's some great insight.
Speaker 2:Well, steve, this has been an incredible podcast. I think this is one for the books. So many I mean countless nuggets of wisdom, just even in the subtleties of what you've said, just even little things, I think can revolutionally, could change the way someone has an experience with a retriever. In closing and we always like to ask this question you know, if you could give yourself some advice if you were starting over let's say you could talk to yourself now, before you started what would you say? What would be your advice? What would be? Or if someone in your shoes is thinking about starting this journey, what would be your advice or your recommendation or your final encouragement to you, if you could say like one or two things to them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think a couple of things come to mind, josh. One is understand this is a long game and so this is a journey of what 10, 12, maybe plus years, that's right. And understanding the value of having a process to follow, and that's what I'm so thankful for I put it in this Providence category that I come across Cornerstone and I have the opportunity to get to meet you and know you. The second thing is understanding that there has to be a willingness to make the commitment and a commitment to follow the process, and I think I've done that. But I think that there's also this aspect of don't take oneself so seriously, because I think when we become like some of us maybe I'm the only one in this category we've come so serious about doing something as I want my dog to be able to do X. Okay, that there isn't anything. It's good to be able to have a vision and set some goals, but I don't want to measure myself against the gap Right.
Speaker 3:And the idea thing, I want to be able to look at what's the gain, and so if I could give some advice to myself that I'm continuing is don't look at the gap, look at the gain. So if I go back whatever it was 12, 15 months ago and we've got this dog running in a lane, that's what five, six feet wide, 25 feet long, to go down and pick this up, bring it back to me, okay, to now swimming out 45, 50 yards. It's like wow, we have really made progress.
Speaker 3:Wow and so that's the thing that I continue to tell myself is don't look at the gap, look at the gain, continue to set goals and objectives. And I think, as you and Cornerstone say it so well, it's progress over perfection. And it's every day, day in and day out. And I think the other thing is to recognize that the investment in Cornerstone for the dog and me as a handler or trainer, that's a lifetime investment for the dog. That's right. That's not only just about training the dog to hunt and retrieve, but that's being able to walk down the street in the subdivision and have people say to me gosh, I wish my dog was that steady and calm. Or be able to walk into Home Depot and have her be everybody's friend in an orange apron and lay down next to the checkout place and be steady. And I think the value comes in multiple aspects, not only just in the field, but through the entire 12 months of the year, year after year after year.
Speaker 2:That's strong. Well, steve, I appreciate you for being on. It's been an honor to have you. I thank you for everything that you've shared and, again, for anybody listening. I just encourage you to listen to it more than once, write it down. I mean, this is just some powerful, powerful stuff, simple, easy to apply, stuff that I think that Steve has shared, but really good stuff. But, steve, it's been an honor having you on and I look forward to maybe one day seeing that pop in the field and love to connect up and maybe at the end of season or something, maybe we'll consider a follow up journey to continue on and talk more about some how the rest of season is gone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you, josh. It's been a pleasure to spend time with you today. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the Build From here podcast. To learn more about retriever training or our podcast, visit Cornerstone Gundog Academy dot com. Slash podcast.