Join us in today's episode as we talk with CGA Members Steve and Cherie Strongman. Steve and Cherie share the challenges they have faced as first-time retriever owners and how they have overcome those challenges and gained confidence on their retriever training journey.
Want to learn more about how you can gain confidence on your retriever training journey? Visit: https://www.cornerstonegundogacademy.com to learn more.
Want to inquire about a guided hunt with Steve? Visit his website here: https://www.thewaterfowldispatchers.com/
Join us in today's episode as we talk with CGA Members Steve and Cherie Strongman. Steve and Cherie share the challenges they have faced as first-time retriever owners and how they have overcome those challenges and gained confidence on their retriever training journey.
Want to learn more about how you can gain confidence on your retriever training journey? Visit: https://www.cornerstonegundogacademy.com to learn more.
Want to inquire about a guided hunt with Steve? Visit his website here: https://www.thewaterfowldispatchers.com/
Cornerstone Gundog Academy online resources to help you guys on here. First of all, just for the work that you've put with your dogs. You've invested so much and you've just you've come a long way with them and I'm excited to share that journey. So, before we kind of like dive into y'all's story, your background. We just wrapped up member weekend. You want to talk through some of that and share what some of your thoughts were from this past weekend.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the member weekend has always been a highlight for us, ever since. Our first one was last year. This was our second one and last year we were definitely nervous coming into it. But I always remember we weren't sure how Ellie was going to react around all the dogs. But we got out of the car and we're kind of easing our way up to the group, the dogs. But we got out of the car and we're kind of easing our way up to the group and we're, we're there.
Speaker 3:Um well, not lately, but we were there right around registration time, so most of the people had already been there. And, um, we had, uh, ellie on a harness. I remember that. And Josh comes walking up the field and just kind of Saunders up and introduces himself and I'm like wow, I've seen this guy in person after I watched all these videos, so that was pretty cool. And I remember one of the first things that you did were she was barking and I started patting her and you're like, oh, don't do that because that's reinforcing it. And I'm like, okay, and then we went back, took the harness off because you were showing us why you use the collar.
Speaker 3:Slip lead, slip, lead, yeah. And so we were walking back in after that and I was like man, that was worth the money right there. But yeah, this year was well the first year. One of the things, chris Rowland was leading our group once we got divided up into teams and it was just great because he just made us feel so relaxed.
Speaker 3:And Ellie was just through fetch hold and release. We were just starting fetch off the place board and throwing it and then small retrieves and weren't sure how she was going to react. And he just looked at us and he said, hey, he's like every dog here, he's like it's not a matter of if they're going to mess up and do something wrong, it's a matter of when. So he's like, take your time. And made us feel real relaxed. And she did her first retrieve, kind of in the water and ran off. And so that was the first group and first thing she did.
Speaker 3:And um started the keep away issue and uh, we've been dealing with that pretty big for the last year, but uh, so anyways, we'll I think we'll talk a little more about that, but um, this year, going back, it was great. Met a lot of people last year and connected with more throughout the year, and so when we went back, we were staying in Airbnb with Matt and Megan and Jake and Katie and they invited us to stay with them, which was great and, yeah, it was just awesome coming back to see everybody in the new people and Martin and you and um, yeah, it was a great time.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, one of the things I really love about CGA weekend. Like you said, going into it the first year you're nervous Cause you're like, oh, how my dog going to perform, how are these people going to? Are they going to judge me, or whatever. But like, everybody has been through the course and you're all learning the same thing, so they want to help. It's not like, oh, you're not doing this right, they don't belittle you or look down on you because of where you're at. Like they build you up and encourage you and really try to help.
Speaker 4:And that was huge because, I think I mean we've heard from other people like when in hunt, tests and stuff like that, everybody's kind of it's like real clicky and not super welcoming.
Speaker 3:but CJ is not like that at all and that's been really great for us and the impact of the members weekend, I think, was huge, like doing the course and that. But when you like you guys say, like your, your dog's not going to learn a lot in three days, it's more about the handler. And I had a call um last year with your dad, keith, and I remember him specifically telling me that he's like you know, the dog's not going to learn a whole lot. He's like you guys are going to. It's more about you as the handler and and it is very true, like just watching other dogs, because you only have one dog and they only do things the certain ways, whether it's good or bad. But then somebody else has another dog and they do good in some areas and bad in other areas and how like everybody works through it and handles it. And in the groups that you guys split up, there's always, like you know, an ambassador or somebody who's mature that leads the group and they kind of coach you along.
Speaker 3:And I think the biggest thing is like when your dog messes up, like you, you don't feel pressure, like nobody, everybody's standing there, there's plenty of time, and it's like you um and uh. Chris, last year he was like all right, let's work on this and it's not like, oh, get your dog back and then we'll move on. It's like, no, let's work through that. And so that's the power of the weekend, and I would encourage anybody like listening who's debating about that, regardless of where your dog's at, it's like you should definitely come, because the experience is is very good and helps a lot. So we're always super pumped when we leave the weekend. Let's go back and we're going to work on all this so next year we can come back and do a little better. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:And y'all have traveled from quite some, quite some way. It's, it's really cool. This is the first podcast we've done with a couple, on which I love that. I just think it's amazing that you two, this husband and wife, are training your dogs together. I mean, that's, that's gotta be amazing. So we'll well, kind of, I guess let's get into that a little bit, let's get in y'all's background, um, just a little bit, how y'all met and then how, how did we end up with dogs and how do we end up here?
Speaker 3:um, yeah, so I'm from canada, ontario, canada, and sherry's from plant city, florida. And um, we had typical canadian from the east goes to Florida for the winter, the snowbird, and Sherry's living there. But we met online on a Christian dating site and got talking back and forth.
Speaker 3:I think originally when I saw her profile like she was about 45 minutes away from where we holidayed and so I'm like, oh well maybe I can meet her when I go down and talked and we're uh, um, in our late 30s, so we're pretty straightforward people and we're is this gonna work, is this gonna work? And she was open to moving up to Canada and so we started the importing process, so which, uh, anyways, it went great, like she came up and saw and then got married through COVID, which was a whole new experience, but we made it work and we're living up in Canada, come down quite regularly to Florida, which is not a hardship for me in the winter, but yeah, I guess we like our story. As far as the dogs, sherry grew up with dogs.
Speaker 3:I, my dad, had a dog, a black lab, when I was. I can barely remember him because he always said I have seven siblings, so he said, eight kids, no pets, and so that's wild. I didn't grow up with pets, um, or a dog, and uh, you did what? What was your first dog?
Speaker 4:We just had small house pets.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Like Shih Tzus and my last one was a Shorkie.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 4:Shih Tzu Yorkie. So going from those dogs to a lab was quite different.
Speaker 2:Did you ever think you would have a lab? Or like you were like thinking like I just need my little family? Not really, Because a lot of people have those type of dogs.
Speaker 4:I wasn't biased to one breed or another, like I thought at one time, like having a bigger dog would be cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:My biggest thing when we first started talking about a lab was the shedding.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Because my dogs never shed, so that's been fun to deal with all the hair and the shedding seasons.
Speaker 2:That is a part of that process. Yeah, it's unavoidable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the biggest thing with the lab was when we were talking about getting a dog. After we got married, I just said, well, if we're getting a dog, I want a dog for hunting. Nice, um, after we got married, I just said, well, if we're getting a dog, I want a dog for hunting. So that's kind of how we we moved to towards that.
Speaker 3:And, um, a little bit, um, I was just on Instagram and, uh, jake, uh, uh, baron caught, he was on Instagram and I saw a video of him, um, using casting his dogs, and I had no idea what he was doing. Wow, um, he was in casting his dogs and I had no idea what he was doing, but I was like he just stopped this dog and then sent it that way with a hand signal. And so I just reached out to him and and, uh, he responded back and I was like are you a breeder, are you, you know, or do you just train dogs? And so, um, he was great, like, basically unloaded information on me and gave me his phone number and I called him and we chatted and he I was originally thinking about a Chesapeake Bay retriever, but he was telling me that labs, the British labs especially, are a little bit softer and probably would be a better first dog.
Speaker 3:Yeah and uh. So I'm glad I took his advice and he gave me some recommendations for a breeder and we settled with, uh, shane kendrick at james river retrievers and, um, but yeah, jake went through all the pedigree and if that mattered, if it didn't matter, and so helped us come to a good decision and we called Shane and put a deposit in on a on a pup, and that was Christmas week oh wow, christmas week, yeah, that's exciting everything was.
Speaker 3:we were looking at all the dogs and that, and he told us about Cornerstone and so we were looking into that and called it, got all excited and I didn really well, I did once I talked to them, but I always kind of in today's world you think about something, then you go buy it, but it's like I hope you had to put a deposit on.
Speaker 3:And then it was like from Christmas to we were picking her up in July and I was like man, this is going to be a long time but it, yeah, we made the jump and I was telling you earlier like cornerstone it was coming from canada with the dog and cornerstone, um, it's in us currency and canadian, so it's about 30 percent more. And we were like, well, him and han, because it's a lot of money up front and but it was probably the best money we ever spent. So on the training program, both of us are very we need like step by step and I like to see video and the aspect of you taking violet through 52 plus and like I noticed when we were looking up stuff on youtube and that trainers were using like already trained dogs but like what you see with 52 plus is it's just raw and there's stuff that goes wrong so I always remember with chris in our the first cga weekend, uh, he was saying has, have you got to the part in the course where Violet starts running off on Josh?
Speaker 3:And I was like no, and he's like because that was what we were dealing with, and so that whole aspect of the 52 plus is just awesome. Wow. But that's kind of how we got our dogs and now we travel with them and that's what we're doing. We were down visiting her family and so we kind of plan it around the weekend and come back up and stop in and do the weekend and head back up.
Speaker 2:So that's awesome, yeah, but so you said, uh, you wanted to get a dog for hunting. What was your background in hunting? Had you? Did you grow up hunting, or is that something that you learned a little bit later in life? What's your story there?
Speaker 3:no, I grew up hunting. My dad, um, my grandfather. He was a hardcore hunter and, uh, pretty cool guy. I never got the chance to meet him. He had a heart attack before I was a couple months before I was born, but, um, which was unfortunate, but he was uh, he was like the truest hunter and uh carved all his own decoys Really and, yeah, hunted out of a canoe.
Speaker 3:I was telling Matt at the weekend that my dad would tell me a story of a long time. I think it was when my dad was young, but grandpa used to have a hen mallard and he'd clip her wings and he'd tie her to the front of the canoe and that was his calling and he'd hunt out of the canoe and I was like man, that would be awesome. I don't think dad even experienced that. I think that was pretty long time ago. But yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3:So I guess I'm third generation um hunting and dad, like I said, had eight kids and so he took a? Um time off basically from when he started having kids to when my brother and I um got old enough to hunt. So I think I was 17 or 18, um, when I could actually carry a gun in Canada. It's a little bit different than States. But uh, when I was able to carry my own gun and then dad had one between Phil and him, he took us out and it was, uh, it was a trial by fire because he took us out. And it was a trial by fire because he took us out and he I think his idea was he was going to get us to shoot ducks, but he failed to tell us that we were shooting hooded Meganzers fish ducks. And then we turned around and cleaned them and ate them and I just about puked because I was like this is horrible, that's hilarious.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, the addiction started early because, seeing those birds come in and setting out decoys out of a canoe, and we were using my dad's decoys that my grandfather card for him a set of, uh, of uh, common goldeneye decoys, all wooden, and so, yeah, we grew up with it and, um, that's they. My grandfather had a lab and my dad had labs growing up I don't think they were overly trained, but they used them for hunting and so that's kind of where the dog aspect came from. And yeah, we hunt quite a lot now, but that's where getting a dog came from for me, me. So that's why I said, do it. When we got it I was like, well, I want to use it for hunting if we're going to do it that's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now you're doing a little bit of guiding too. Did you, uh, when you were getting the dog, and were you already thinking about guiding at that point, or is that something that came a little bit somewhere a little bit later?
Speaker 3:um, yeah, it came a little bit later. Um, we have a second dog now that came more so for the guiding gotcha. So, yeah, we uh had the opportunity to uh purchase his night photos license in saskatchewan, canada, and uh, my brother and his wife and um sherry and myself we made the plunge. Um, we've been going out there.
Speaker 3:Dad took us out, I think 14 years ago, wow, and uh drove out in a little tercel because his dad had took him and his brother out when they were in their early teens and camped out by the quail lakes and, wow, they were using rag decoys and the stories that he told us.
Speaker 3:So we're like, well, we want to go and uh, it just took one trip and then we've been going out every year since. Amazing, and uh, it's a special place to hunt too. So we got uh the opportunity to purchase a? Um, an outfitter's license, with the support of our wives, because we'll be out there for a month and a half two months now and uh, sherry got to experience it this year and it that's one of the reasons why we wanted to do it is because when you go out there and you see 10 000 snow geese in a field, that's amazing. It's pretty cool and cherry got to see the northern lights last year and really snow geese and cranes and ducks and specks, and so we try to get her more out on the warmer hunts.
Speaker 2:That's a unique place. It's so amazing just to be able to see all of that. It's like all the birds that are there, northern light, I mean that's just incredible.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah it is, and not very many people, which is always nice. I'm not so much a city guy, but yeah. So yeah, but we're looking forward to it. This will be our first full year, guiding for about halfway through September to the end of October. That's where I'm going to be going, so looking forward to it and very excited that Ellie should be ready for the season she's going to be.
Speaker 2:I believe it. Yeah, she's so, ellie, right now. How old?
Speaker 4:is Ellie currently.
Speaker 2:She's almost two almost two yeah, okay. So let's uh, let's kind of dive into the the training journey. So were you on board with training the dog from the beginning? Like you said, did you think that you would want to train them? Like, what was the process there?
Speaker 4:um, I didn't really know. I think we had kind of decided, because I work from home, that I would do the majority of the training during the week and then Stephen would do whatever he could at night or on the weekends. So I was open to that and it was definitely a learning experience. Um, ellie really, from the beginning, picked up on everything super quick. Wow, like anything I threw at her, she like got it spot on every time, and so I was like, oh, this is easy, like she's really easy to train Like, and she was treat motivated, so that always helps. Um, but then we got to um, fetch, hold and release, and that's kind of where the wheels fell off for us. We are I shouldn't say we, I mean, yes, we both did it but made the mistake when she was a puppy, like if she'd get a stick or anything in her mouth, we would just take it from her without giving her anything in return, and so that kind of created the keep away issue when the bumper was introduced.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And that has created problems for us for about a year now. So, yeah, it was interesting to go from the obedience into the gundog stuff where she had been doing so great and then now all of a sudden she's not. It's like what? What did we do? Where did we go wrong? And I know all of her issues were created by us being inexperienced handlers, like never having done this before.
Speaker 2:I mean everybody's bound to face what we call the trials and triumphs of training a gundog. I mean, it doesn't matter how good you are, how many years you've been doing it or the little years you've been doing it. There will be something that you're going to face. That will be a challenge and I think the beautiful thing about that is it's an opportunity right. I feel like at the time it doesn't feel like an opportunity.
Speaker 2:It feels more like a hindrance, but it really is an opportunity to to grow as a trainer, handler and in that bond with the dog and I think, just from what I've seen from y'all, that y'all have grown in that tremendously. Like from, I remember, like you said, when y'all first pulled up to member weekend I came and said, hey, from where y'all were then to one year later, to where y'all are now just massive transformation. So y'all hit that stage. So you realize that maybe, uh, did that have to do with anything like the scenario where y'all live in? I know that we talked about, like with the neighbors, like you don't necessarily have a fence and stuff like that, um, or is it just like you just unknowingly thought, well, I just need to get this from her?
Speaker 2:or you're afraid she's gonna swallow something and get hurt.
Speaker 4:I think it was the unknown yeah like because she doesn't just chew on the stick and then spit it out, like I didn't want her to swallow and then cut up her insides and stuff. So that was my fear. It's a real problem I do.
Speaker 2:I mean that happens to a lot of labs. Yeah, I was talking to somebody recently that happened to you, or my father-in-law. His dog had a big rock and he lived, he was okay. It it was a very expensive surgery, so I do get those concerns. The mistake is a normal mistake, that it can happen to anybody.
Speaker 2:So you ran into those challenges so you were real happy, and then all of a sudden you hit what we call the dip phase, where things kind of go south. Let's kind of talk from there. What was your mindset when you first started noticing it? Did you think it was going to be a problem, or you thought you're just unsure?
Speaker 4:I think we were a little unsure. We knew it was an issue, but we didn't know how long it was going to be an issue and how much time it would take to turn it around.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, we tried a lot of different things. Things and that's where the community is good Cause like the Facebook group, like we went on and any problems that we had, like from base, like as soon as we got our home to this issue, we just searched the Facebook group and if it wasn't in there, then we'd ask. But most of the questions have been answered multiple times, yeah, from multiple different people, which is cool because a lot of times, like you guys, are busy. So if, uh, like it might not, might not come from you, but you've answered it in the past too, so we just searched it up. That was one of the first things we did and and, uh, yeah, we tried, we tried everything.
Speaker 3:So, but I think we put the check cord on her and we could get her to do that, but the biggest issue was, like we couldn step on the check cord and she'd come over or drop it, yeah, but the result wasn't happening, like where she would come right in.
Speaker 3:And so we tried, like um, through the advice of you guys, and that because she would seem to almost get bored too when we would introduce a new skill, like we would change it up and do, like um, a lane, like the the lane. We take her out and do that, and she'd do good for like three days, and then she'd kind of just fall off. She'd go and barely pick it up, kind of bring it back, but not really. And so then we're like what's going on? And so then we try like outside, cut a, um, a natural lane, and she would do great. And we're like all right, we're over this. And then, uh, and we thought, like the keep away issue, we just keep working on it as we like move forward, um, in different things to keep her excited, but, um, anytime, we took that check cord off she just knew.
Speaker 2:She's like she knew.
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm free, yeah and like we tried working on her recall and her recall isn't really bad, but like, soon as, like we could do it with the check word on and she's very smart, so she would just come right in no problem. But as soon as you click that off, then she'd just start ripping zoomies around the yard and uh, but it gave us an opportunity to try and figure out and solve the problem. So we kind of identified, like through moving on and trying different things, like she likes to figure things out herself and make her decision to do it, and I think we were trying to force the issue um too much and um, that was like a big turning point for us. So like we wouldn't chase her when she did the zoomies, we'd just stand there, wait for her to calm down and like come back with the check cord, and then we'd pick the check cord up and then start doing some obedience and lead her back into it. And then, but the check cord was still on and so every once in a while we'd take it off and in the wintertime we'd use a snow lane.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it was like she can't really run through the snow in that, but she found a way to get away and uh, yeah, and then, like we just learned one of the best things to do just cut the training off and come inside, and then she'd come back to the door because you don't want to feed that bad habit. Yeah, so, um, one of the things that I guess um like to training today and uh, maybe I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but the concept that really made a lot of sense to me is what you said this morning. It's like the magnet effect. Yeah, it's like when we push towards her, she would push away from us. Yeah, and like we were working on which we'll probably talk about is just walking away and she like comes back to us yeah.
Speaker 3:And yeah, I think you know some of the times the problems were like she was just growing and getting older and we found that every time she went through her heat cycle she'd kind of mature and calm down a little bit.
Speaker 3:But the issue talking to you we called you a couple times, called Jake a couple times, talked to our breeder, shane, and all great ideas but I think the biggest breakthrough was probably at Christmas. Sherry said she likes running after the bumper. She just doesn't want to come back, so like she's not trusting us that we're going to throw it again or something like that. So she's like why don't you try and take her up to the hallway and like either yank it out of her mouth because it's only 10 feet, yeah, and then just keep throwing it and keep throwing it before she even gets back, right, so she learns that you're going to throw it right away. That's right. So I did that and, yeah, the first day or so I had to like basically go up, but she couldn't go anywhere. So I just go up and take it out of it and just throw it to her, and then she started learning.
Speaker 2:That's amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So that was a big kind of breakthrough. And I did that that up in the hallway for probably about a week and just kept throwing in her and it was good because it wear out too. And then I moved outside, put the check cord on her and did the same thing and she liked that. And then I even got to the point where I could take the check cord off for a bit and but then the formal, get the place poured out, heel sit and not let her break, throw it. She would go and get it like a couple times, yeah. Then she was like nope, I want you to throw it every time. Yeah, and just do fun bumpers. And so then we kind of had to solve that problem.
Speaker 3:So we up in canada we lose a lot of the seasons, kind of like your heat, but for us it's snow, so we can't train because the snow gets real crusty and and it's cold and it cuts up their paws. So from Christmas till we were, before we come down here, sherry started doing some stuff in the house, just simple obedience and retrieves. But we had a call with you and you encouraged us, just said like if you can get one or two retrieves, and then kind of put her up and then extend that out to up to a hundred or so. The repetition is just going to form the habit of coming back automatically, like she does those perfect repetitions, then it's going to happen. Yeah, repetitions, then it's going to happen.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, and that's concept has really been coming into fruition for me in the last month or so, because I've seen it and, like you said, that's basically the essence of training is just good repetitions of an action that you want the dog to do. And so, coming down in march, um, she had just gone through another heat cycle and she seemed to be even getting a little bit more mature and and I don't know if there's any correlation, but that's kind of what we noticed and um took her out into the porch that was kind of like a hallway and uh, it was about I don't know 10 year or 10 yards, 15 feet or whatever, and I just put the place board down and I sat in front of it, because we have her coming to deliver the hand right in front of us, not to the side, and and I just would throw it, send her no check cord, and she would.
Speaker 3:I noticed I was like whoa, she's doing this good and usually she gets bored, but I was like, all right, let's do this, and every day I would only do 10, like that's what. I kind of noticed that at 10 you'd kind of start to bobble it and not be interested anymore. Oh, I should mention one of the other things that we did was we tried to. We found uh like a high reward. She really liked these free stride treats that we got, so combine that and uh, help get the result we wanted, but would send her out and do 10 at a time, and I think I was at it for a week or a week and a half and got up to 115. So I was like, okay, let's move outside, because, oh man, yeah anyways. But I was like it makes sense, like jaw said, like if you get a hundred, like she's doing the same thing for 115 times, and she, I think out of those hundred she had two that were bad, wow, and that was off the check cord, so I wasn't pulling her and uh, so I was super excited and and uh, like you say in the course, like with violet, you don't want to get too worked up because she feeds into that, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So I was trying to stay calm and so I took her out into the yard and I was like, okay, how can I get her to like not blow by me? And so I just took two chairs and laid them down and put the place board on the on my side and and uh, and then I just kind of extended it out to about 20 yards and I put the check cord back on her because you had told me like the you know, a bad retrieve will kind of eliminate a couple good ones, so you want to kind of cut off the bad and it reinforced the good. So I was like I'll just try this with the check cord on, came back, started, perfect, and then I do about eight or nine, and then I take the check cord off her and I kind of like put it at her feet and made it touch her back to think that it was still pretty cool yeah, so she did that.
Speaker 3:And then, um, that's hilarious, yeah, so I started building up to about 25 and then I took the chairs away and and uh, just had the place board and it was open behind me and, uh, that didn't go as good. So I switched to like a natural, where there was a hedge, and put the place board there and threw it out. So she couldn't she could go through there's gaps, but it was more of a deterrent, yeah and uh, yeah, I did it each session and I was like, okay, the weekend's coming up, so I want to get her, get her ready. And and, uh, I knew if I could get her close enough to where she was like pretty good, that the weekend would be a pretty good test, because the pressure that all the dogs around and and then I'm like if she actually does it in that situation, then we've kind of turned the page. Yeah, so we did.
Speaker 3:Uh, I think it was probably about uh 50 with the check cord on and I would think I was at before we left florida. I was at about 20, um, without the check going on. Wow, and I don't know if it's good or bad, but Ellie, down there where Sherry lives, it's kind of in a subdivision and there's lots of dogs, lots of squirrels and lots of people Wow. So one of the things I found was they have a floodlight in their backyard and I would take her out at night. She couldn't see any of that and she couldn't. I didn't have to really run, worry about her running off after school that's pretty smart too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah so that's when I did a lot of off lead. So she ran out and come back and, yeah, and I was about 25 reps with her off lead and then came to the weekend.
Speaker 2:So, man, yeah, but and then, uh, weekend went pretty, uh incredible. I mean that's it.
Speaker 2:I mean, if the dog is going to fail, it's going to be a member weekend due to there being so many other dogs and that's where a lot of people like if you haven't seen the member weekends, like we have all the dogs out at the same time, every hand. Like no, we're not running one dog at a time and then putting them back in the truck and the next dog. All dogs need to learn to perform, whether there's other dogs there or not. Um, and so that is where the the intensity comes from. But I saw you retrieve with ellie and she came back and delivered a hand with like five other dogs eight other dogs back behind you. How many many was ever in your group?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think there was at least six, or because Jake had three. Yeah, there was at least six or seven dogs, wow, and they're all standing behind right where she's. You know coming back to, and you see dogs a lot of times and they just want to go say hi.
Speaker 3:And so they kind of blow off what they're supposed to do and run back and that's not bad, but like kind of blow off what they're supposed to do and run back and and that's not bad. But, like you said, like if she can do it at the weekend, I was looking forward to it. And the weekend started and josh has. I guess it was the friday morning. You gathered everybody and and um, because thursday morning, um, it was mostly just obedience and a couple of the more advanced dogs did retrieves through the group of people, like spread out. So that was pretty cool too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I was thinking about doing it with Ellie and I'm like no, no that's too much, and that's what you got.
Speaker 3:You and Barton always say like don't test train. Yeah, and that's very important too. And so, anyways, friday morning you gathered everybody and you gave a talk on like you know what you're feeling the anxiety and stress or whatever. It is excitement, or if you think that, oh, my dog's not, my dog's not going to do this, then that feeds into the dog. And so I was like, okay, all right.
Speaker 3:Josh says I got to make a mental note Like she's going to do this. That's right, because for the last year, I mean both of us like taking her out. It's like when is she going to just go crazy? And so I'm like, no, I'm like I got to put my you know my best effort into making it like we're training in the backyard down in Florida. And she was doing perfect, it was just her and me. And and uh, so, anyways, we um, I think it's a wide drill was the first one. We went and Jake was leading our group and he knew where we were at too and he had seen her. But we went down and visited them during the year and and so he, he'd seen what we were dealing with, and uh, so I sent her and she went out with the check cord on and I'm like, okay, I'll just try with that. And she came right back in and he's like man, that was good, I'm like I know so that's incredible it was, uh, it was really exciting.
Speaker 3:But I think the highlight, uh would probably be on day two, the Friday. We were doing a pattern blind with three buckets and three different stations in that, and obviously we weren't going to do that. But in that scenario and that's something I should mention too for anybody that hasn't been at the weekend it's like in the groups that are divided up, like when Barton divided us up. He said who here has a beginner dog? And then we put up well, we were kind of beginner, intermediate, and so we put up our hand, so every group had, like, a dog that was just beginner and intermediate, and then a couple advanced dogs, so the stations are set up to where, like, the advanced dogs have something to do, and then a couple advanced dogs so the stations are set up to where, like, the advanced dogs have something to do, and then the beginners.
Speaker 3:It just gets simplified down and so, with the pattern blind and three buckets, um, the advanced dogs could do the different ones and run to the different piles, and but we were just working on um, we would heal, ellie out, drop a bumper and turn it into a lining memory, and so that's what we did. I, um, went out and healed her out, dropped it and healed her back into about 50 yards and liner and she nailed it amazing and um, so I took her off, lead for the second one, walked her out or I healed her with the lead on, took, walked her back, took it off and she brought right back and I was like I mean that's a big moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, after all that that you've been through in the environment with other people, other dogs off lead she delivers and I know like a lot of people are maybe listening to this.
Speaker 2:They come from the different world. They're like why would you not just slap an e-collar and make that dog come back right? That's part of the process. I mean, yeah, you could do something like that, but imagine what ellie would be like today if you had done that. Like, her personality wouldn't be what it is and it wouldn't be foolproof. You'd always be relying on that collar.
Speaker 2:You guys aren't going to be relying on a collar because you're taking the time to truly work with your dog and when you consider, consider all things, you're still young, not even two years old yet, and so most dogs don't even get to the highest levels until two, three, four, really probably four years old is when dogs are peaking. Four years plus is when they're peaking. So that's really amazing that you didn't cave to the pressure of what most people do and they do it all backwards. Right, let's get our dogs out there and hunt them at six months old, eight months old. Let's get them some experience, see what that does for them. Well then you ingrain bad habits. We talked about that earlier. Like, yeah, repetition is important In low-stress environments.
Speaker 2:It's going to take a lot of reps, but when you put a dog on a hunt and if they get reinforced by picking up an actual duck that smell the gum powder the way that it just the amount of intensity like it will fully ingrain in their brain, one moment can really mess them up, versus when you're back at home training. It's super laid back and chill. Therefore, it takes more reps to get there. But by y'all not doing all that and you're taking the time to get to where you needed to with the dog, you're able to go through a simple process that takes time.
Speaker 2:And now I mean your dog performed under really one of the most difficult circumstances Six, seven dogs back behind you, people talking back behind you, your dog seeing other dogs working. All the dogs are sitting there and watching and when she's coming back, that dog's staring at you and all the other dogs. It has an option and it's a wide open field. You know she could have gone anywhere, yeah, but she chose to come back to you through just a just a deliberate process, as joe went through. It's just incredible, yeah it's a huge win.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was uh. And after that like uh, I think the and um, after the group kind of went, I I set her back up because I wanted to try and see if she'd run back to the bumper and I knew like she's fairly advanced and I knew she knew a lot more. But that problem of her coming back, yeah, like hinders us from doing any more advancing through the training, and lined her to the bucket on a blind. She knew she had run to the bucket before and she knew there was bumpers there, yeah, and sent her off lead and and it was kind of at the end when everybody was kind of going away and I was just about jumping over the moon because she came back twice and she did it as a pattern, blind that time she didn't walk it out.
Speaker 2:No, that was a pretty long way. Did you do it? The same distance that we were running? From did you step a little closer?
Speaker 3:yeah, I was about 30 yards closer, because still a long way, yeah, because those were pretty decently long retrieves yeah.
Speaker 3:And Ellie. Well, I mean, you've seen her Like she's very fast age and she picks up a lot of speed coming back in and so I'm always worried watching her just pick up speed coming back in and whether or not she's going to slow down. But yeah, I think that, like what you said about the e-caller, um, we're training ever, if anybody's listening and they're, they're in the situation of just getting a dog. Like we talked about it before, like we wanted to train the dog ourself. Trust the process of like 52 plus, like we saw what you did with violet.
Speaker 3:I'd never trained a dog but, um, just keep ourselves accountable. Like I went through a whole hunting season when I thought I was going to be hunting ellie and I had people like where's your dog? Where's your dog? Because I told people I was gonna have a dog this year, yeah and uh, sherry, like I was accountable to her and that's what I'd be saying is like either find another member or somebody else to just hold you accountable, to be like, hey, like you said, like you're gonna have the dog for 10 or 12 years, hopefully, or, you know, and hunting it for four or five, six years, good, in the peak of its life kind of thing and to not rush into it, because we were living firsthand what bad habits can create.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, with chasing her and trying to take things out of her mouth. And so sherry kept me accountable and we just agreed, like we're not going to hunt her this year, take time and train her and and stick to what we you know what we said we were going to do and with the color, like, we wanted to use that as like the last resort because jake had told us that you know, they can become color aware. So I didn't want to have her do good with the collar on and then not off and or not on, because it just wouldn't. You know, I'd have to have the collar on her like the whole time because, especially for that coming back um problem, that that is everything.
Speaker 3:Like if she's just out in the yard and she only comes back to me with the collar on, I was like. He told me he's like, if you can spend more time and just solve the problem going forward, you'll be a lot better off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's getting to that root of the symptom instead of just treating the symptom right. Yeah, you call her a lot of times Now if you use it, it right?
Speaker 2:you can utilize it totally not a not a bad tool could totally be used, right, but I'm a firm believer that you should learn to do it without it first and then, if you're going to use it, use it later as just an extra, like final layer of protection or just for extra little reinforcement if you want to. But yeah, it's totally not necessary. I mean dogs have been trained for centuries. Yeah, without technology, so it's's totally doable. But that's really incredible. So if we rewind, dog runs away, fast forward a little bit of work, dog comes back. I mean that's amazing.
Speaker 2:So you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 3:I guess You're like, okay, this is working and that's what honestly we would encourage people to do If you're having an issue, like just be patient like it's. We were a year and, um, I mean, obviously life happens too, like I get busy at work and cherry and also frustration doesn't obviously make you want to train. If every session is like a nightmare and her running through the bush at 100 miles an hour I have videos of anyways, but it can get frustrating. But you know, this trusted process and those videos and the community helped us huge. Like you know, people were just encouraging us, not saying like, oh, you got to get rid of the dog or some other stuff, like, fix it this way, fix it that way. They were just giving us solutions to try and yeah, and it, it pays off in the end. So because when I think sherry said to you today, it's like it's odd to see her doing well, like what she is supposed to, because, right, so used to seeing her fly off the rails.
Speaker 4:It's really cool to see her see it all coming together and it like kind of starting to click wow where she like oh, this is what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:She's very well trained. What's amazing is that she is like so I took her this morning and she just was snapping right with it you know, first time I've ever really worked her off lead heel, she heels.
Speaker 2:When I say heels sit perfectly the first time. First commands. That just goes to show that you've put in the work. It's just a matter of bridging those little gaps right, because that's what a lot of people don't understand about training to you and we talk about that in the videos is the generalization stuff. You know, it's one thing for your dog to do it in one place, then when you start moving around there creates little gaps in their minds. They don't understand it.
Speaker 2:Or another thing we talked about yesterday, which is a good concept, is it's like trailblazing blazing a new trail, whatever behaviors are created. That's like the road. The road is paved, whether good or bad. If you want a new road to be paved, they're going to go on the path of least resistance. So if this is something unfamiliar and there's like a bunch of trees in the way here versus this wide open road, well, whatever that be, we'll call it running around. This is what she's used to with the sticks and it translates to the retrieving Versus here. We want her to come back, but that's a foreign concept to her. Here's a wide, open road running around. Well, naturally it's past the path of least resistance, well then you have to basically create a new path, and so that path is less traveled, and so the path that is most traveled is the one that's going to continue to happen.
Speaker 2:So, as a trainer, that's why I consider problems an opportunity instead of a bad thing, and that's what you know. I love to see the light click with y'all and you realize that we talked about that, the member, we can do, and a lot of people are seeing that is, problems are really just an opportunity for you to get creative, learn how to position yourself, and by position yourself I mean learn how you should respond as a trainer to get your dog to do the uh, to create the new path and then to not travel the path that you don't want. Right, or for some people, maybe it's having issues on the dog healing healing in front, not listening, or some issues. It's, uh, you know some issues. It's the dog chewing up some nasty ducks, a lot of hunt tests. They have nasty ducks. I've seen that People have trouble. The dog gets their first duck at a hunt test and, man, they just start ripping into it.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, that's a pathway that's been created. Well, how do you solve that? Well, you've got to create a new pathway. Sometimes you've got to create a new pathway and sometimes you got to get pretty creative and sometimes you got to do things as simple as you just have to. Like it's monotonous, right 10 yard retrieves and like in your mind, like you know, the dog's so much more capable. The dog could do 200 yard retrieves if she wanted to. If she could, she would. If she wanted to do it, she could. Now, well, that's true, if she could, she would, and if she wanted to do it, she. So how can we get her to where she can and how can we get the dog to where we want him to?
Speaker 2:And that's the beautiful opportunity about challenges and problems is it allows you to position those things where that happens, and once you unlock that, your problem is solved and you're better off because you've learned to problem solve for yourself too. That's what I love about the critical thinking skills, like some of the things you said too, I want to highlight. You said that, uh, as you were transitioning you know how we've talked about when you're transitioning that creates little gaps in their minds. Uh, on, on, like you know they're doing it right in one place. But when you transition to a new place, like when you went from the little porch to outside, uh, you know it's a new thing creates those gaps. And so what you did? You put the chairs there. You faded those chairs out. That didn't work. So you moved to the bush and then from the bush, that started going better. But then you had the problem the check cord. Okay, well, she knows the check cords on her. So what did you do? Well, you started. You just kind of unclipped it, but you kind of wrapped it around her so she could still feel it. That's like one step in the right direction. You start bridging that gap. Then one day you try it without it and you've done it enough that she does it right and that's just a.
Speaker 2:That is how training happens. Y'all are the perfect example of how to train a dog. That's why they call it training too. It's not just we're not running drills right, we're teaching our dogs to do what we want them to do, and sometimes you're in situations where they won't like. With Violet Honestly, the perfect dog for the videos.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, that created some challenges for me. Unfortunately, that created some challenges for me. When we started we were in an apartment, abigail and I, and when we started the videos she was 10 weeks old. Well, I think Abigail came home from groceries one day and just at the worst time it actually had happened. I was messing with Violet in there. She had a bumper, I was trying some inside retrieves and she had this bumper and then she just happened to ease over by the door. I was going to go get her. I didn't know Abigail was coming home.
Speaker 2:The door opens and Violet sees the opportunity, the promised land, and she goes. She runs out, she goes down the stairs and I was like, oh goodness, I got to go check that out and we're in the city in an apartment and then my dog is free, about to potentially get rid of her, so I break the cardinal rule, I chase after her and she was just loving it. You know she was having the best time of her life. And I finally caught up to her a long way later and I was like man. I hope that didn't cause me any problems.
Speaker 2:Well, sure enough, it was such an intensive experience for her. It definitely bled over into some of the training, which is a good opportunity for people to get to see that when we show and demonstrate, okay. Well, opportunity for people to get to see that when we show and demonstrate, okay. Well, violet was having this issue and we worked through it on the videos. But it can happen as simple as a stick or it can happen as simple as whatever. I mean there's so many hundreds of scenarios that it can happen. But that doesn't have to mean that doesn't mean that you can't overcome it like y'all did. I mean all you, all you did was just put in the work and you didn't give up which is the main thing and you didn't allow.
Speaker 2:the easy mindset is oh man, this just isn't going to work, especially as first-time trainers. We should talk about that for a second. I guess this was your first dog ever to train, so how did you go from that uncertainty to where, like, did you just kind of have that blind faith and trust? What was it that helped you, I mean as a first-time trainer, when you feel like things aren't working? How did you overcome that?
Speaker 4:Well, I think from the beginning we really underestimated how much time it really takes to train a dog. Like it's not just you go out for your four sessions a day and that's all I have to do. Like it's all the time. Like when you take them out, if you want them to sit at the door before you open the door. Like you have to work on that sit before they eat. Like it took us several weeks to get her to sit before we commanded her to eat her food. Yeah, um, coming back when she's outside, when you recall her. Like there's lots of opportunity to work on the obedience outside of a formal training session and I don't think we really thought that way. Kind of let them be free, except for during the training sessions, not realizing that that could hinder, you know.
Speaker 2:You know it could hinder the other things.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and we've since got another dog. He's almost nine months and we were very intentional with him with the obedience. Anytime we go outside with him we have treats in our pocket. If he comes to us we treat him. So he knows coming to us is a good thing.
Speaker 3:When he picks up stuff. Yeah, either call him to us and take it and treat him, or give him something else that he's allowed to have. Yeah, a little trade-off trickoff trick. That's awesome and he doesn't. He doesn't necessarily even know what's happening like he's just happy either way, yeah but when, like with ellie, we would just chase her and basically take it and she's like you know, hey I had that yeah I didn't get anything for it.
Speaker 3:So and then that leads into why am I coming back so at, yeah, I think I've never. I never even had a dog. Like Sherry had a dog and she had a bond with an animal and I didn't like it was pretty cool for me Cause, like you're building, bringing them home and like even from, like everything was new, like potty training I was, and that's what CGA solved for me was because I'm like how do you train a dog to pee outside, like and go to the door? Like you know what I mean. And then the concept of learning, where you say like you have to teach the dog to learn with the clicker and treat. Like no verbal, verbal commands. Like you, they touch the place board, you click and then they're on top of the place board, you click and treat and then you add the verbal command. And it's just fascinating to me to see it all play out and that's how you know it works. Is like when that dog first touches the place board and you click and treat and then, like two weeks later you say place and it goes and sits on and clicks and treat right, like that goes all the way through. And and I think we knew that, like in a sense, like we had faith that it would work, like we would venture and try other little things that we came up with, but it just went off the rails and we go back and watch the videos and go back to exactly what we were supposed to do. Yeah, but it was uh, if you have a bond and like you care about the dog and you, like Sherry says, you work on the obedience with it and it'll work, but yeah, under definitely underestimated it and I think, more importantly, like the generalization is so important, yeah, like cause you can get your dog and you see it, it's perfect at healing in the house and then you take it outside and it's like you know, and uh, I'm sure some people saw us with diesel, our youngest, at the at the member weekend and I was down in Florida and he was off lead healing Perfect, no problem, put them on lead Florida.
Speaker 3:And he was off lead healing perfect, no problem, put him on lead, he was pretty good. Come to the weekend and he just is like jacked up, wants to go say hi to everybody and I'm just holding on for dear life and I'm like what is going on? And but I mean, we hadn't really taken him to any stores or he hadn't been a whole lot of people, and so Sherry and I were trying to get him calmed down. We held him farther back from the groups and that and uh, and finally we just put them up and said like we had to work. You know, we'll work on that, but because we and we were also very focused on ellie, because that was kind of our main focus this weekend, because diesel was he's farther behind in the training than he's younger, than what ellie was last year yeah, but yeah, like with the training, the generalization I think is uh is super important.
Speaker 3:So if you think your dog's good, then just take it to a new area, introduce it, and that always reinforces it even more.
Speaker 2:Yeah a lot of people don't get that. On the hunts too, while we we always end on a mock hunt, is that the first goose setup we did the first two dogs that ran. I forget exactly what happened, but somehow I think one dog was sent and another guy sent his dog and the other dog saw the other dog go in, so it chased after it. And then also, some of the dogs had never been in a rig-em-right field, blind, versus some of them have been in a momar's. Some of the dogs had never been in a rig them right field blind, versus some of them have been in a mow marsh. So when they're first sitting down you know they're having to like fight with their dog to get it into the field blind instead of the mow marsh. And I'm like well, this is why we do this, because this is training. You go out on your hunt. It's 4.50 am, 5.30 am, whatever. It's dark, it's cold, lots of distractions if there's ice, chainsaws, all kinds of crazy stuff going on. Could you imagine trying to teach your dog with that amount of chaos, versus in a controlled environment which you're preparing them? Because once you teach them then they get it Okay. Now they're good in this environment and then we scale it up a notch. We have the calls, we're calling shooting the whole nine yards to where it feels like a real hunt, and then when they go on a real hunt, it's like that, it's no different. If you can train, the only way to create that intensity is to create that amount of excitement. It's hard to duplicate that in a lot of scenarios, but when we have everybody there it's pretty easy to do that. So that generalization principle applies to the hunts too. I mean I can't tell you how many dogs like.
Speaker 2:We had a guy buy a dog from us one time and we told him, you know, like this dog was trained and, uh, you know, partly trained. It was well trained, I mean it could do, it was ready to hunt, it could do hand signals, stuff like that. It wasn't what I call fully trained, but far enough along that it was huntable. I hate that we sold this dog. It was a fantastic dog, but the guy called and said he wanted it and so we put it on the plane and sent it to him there in texas and we told him you need to give this dog two or three weeks to acclimate to you and all this. Well, we get a call the next day at like 830 am and he is already hunting the dog. He got the dog that night. The dog didn't even sleep and the dog sees cows for the first time because the guy was just letting it follow him on the four-wheeler and all that worked out. The dog was scared of cows because it was dark and running into big old cows and they get in the blind and they shoot the first volley of ducks and so he sends the dog. The dog swims out, he touches the or she touches the duck with her nose and then turns around and comes back and at that point that's when he's calling us.
Speaker 2:I thought you said this dog was trained. We're like well, first of all I told you two to three weeks, but give it a little more time, let the dog figure it out. The dog is trained, it knows how to do it. We had a call that afternoon after a few more volleys. Uh, we told him to go ahead and throw the fur, like go out there in the boat, get the duck and then throw it out and give it a couple of retrieves, and they did that. Then by the end of the day the dog had figured out what it was and he was very ecstatic. But that's just a case of like he could have avoided that and it still worked out.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's good to generalize things. Like you know, people are like, well, you know, can't they figure it out? Yeah, they can. I prefer them not. When I show up, I want it to be in order, ready to go. So it's really good to prep and do that generalization and that's going to pay off for y'all.
Speaker 2:You told me something earlier that got me excited and you're like you know I didn't want to be coming on here saying, yeah well, I shouldn't have hunted my dog early, but I did and you made that decision to to wait it out. And she's not even two yet. So by the time she hunts she'll be two years and some change, which is really a perfect time to be hunting a dog, because your your experience with hunting her at that age. She'll be fully trained by then, more than likely where y'all would be at in the program. We're pretty close and she's going to do really good.
Speaker 2:So that's what a lot of people don't understand, right is it seems like it's going to take longer, but it doesn't. In the grand scheme of things, it actually is shorter because at two and a half years old or two years old you've got a dog that gets it. They've got all the concepts, the foundations are there and they're performing like a three or four year old retriever on a hunt that you know has a lot of experience. That's what a lot of people just they make those mistakes is those early hunts a lot of times creates problems, like we talked about those highways that have to be rerouted and it takes a long time to reroute a highway. It's best to build the roads once if you can.
Speaker 2:But if you have to build them more than once. In the case I'd like to keep away. That's fine. Mitigate the problems. How many problems can we mitigate and avoid? Which is what we try to help people do to the best of our ability, but sometimes it's just going to happen too. Some things are inevitable.
Speaker 2:But, the big thing is you just got to work through it like you all have done. And you all have done a really. I mean, like I said this morning, when I was able to take Ellie for the first time. You know, I remember weekend I didn't really get a chance because we were running around so much the previous year or this year. But when I was able to take Ellie for the first time I said, hey, let me train her for a second, you know. And then I say heal, and she just starts. She knows what to do, she doesn't even know me. I mean to me, first of all, that's a sign like you've done a good job, because if a dog will heal with a stranger on the first command, like you've clearly drilled the reps in, like she gets and then stop. When I say stop and then retrieve, when I say retrieve, with little effort, zero effort from me other than just giving the commands, that means you clearly have done a good job with her.
Speaker 3:Thank, you, you should be proud, but uh, yeah, couldn't have done it without you guys, that's for sure.
Speaker 3:So, because I said to sherry multiple times, I have no idea where, where she would be without it, and I've been on hunts with dogs that people have trained by themselves or off youtube and it's uh. I see a lot of uh issues that could be solved easy, like with the course, and, like I said to you before, it's like the money is well worth it, that's for sure that means a lot, and I think a lot of people don't understand too that the standard we're trained to is extremely high.
Speaker 2:Our standards are premium. Why are they that way? Because why not? Why settle for something when you don't have to settle right? No one should ever have to settle because they didn't know what to do, or because there was an issue, or because they were just misinformed. Because there's a lot of information out there that's confusing. Like you said, I see it on Facebook all the time Ask a question, you'll get 50 different answers and you're left more confused than when you started. You're better off not to ask in the groups, because that's what's going to happen. Then you're going to be like well, I don't know. You then have to sort through and decide which answer is right and which answer is wrong. Now, fortunately, in the case of our group is it's all centered around the core, so that will help guide you through the process, but you know it's definitely a process, and it's just something that takes little by little to get where you want to go.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, yeah, that's been a, it's been a good experience, so it's uh, we've learned a ton too, and that's awesome. Nothing will teach you more, more about patience than a dog, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so how do y'all feel like right now compared to them when you first started?
Speaker 3:good, yeah, I uh, I feel like a accomplishment for sure, like my brother comes over and and I show him. And we've had people that are like even mystified, like that, um, ellie will go and sit on place. And I want to say to them yeah, you know how long it took her.
Speaker 3:Like how many like consistent you know repetitions that it takes to do that and it's an accomplishment, like even just getting them to go to place and sit. It's like that takes a whole process but it's so fun when you see it come into fruition and like Ellie today when she was doing the retreats and coming back and we had her since she was a puppy and then worked her all the way through and that's that. That uh, obedience part before you get into the gundog skills, like nothing seems like it takes longer than that, because I'm like let's go, like you haven't thrown a bumper to the dog at all
Speaker 2:yeah, but that foundation is so important because it it plays into the whole thing and uh, but yeah, it's uh it is amazing how that window feels like forever, but then, in the grand scheme of things, the rest goes so quick, because that foundation is what you build everything on and once it's built and solid, I mean you can. I mean you're in construction, you get that right. If something's wonky then you have to try to work through it every. That's. That's the biggest thing. Foundation's everything. You get that right. You don't have to adapt to a lot because you just everything flows. You miss foundational pieces. You got to get super creative, um, to make it right, to make it look all even like it should.
Speaker 4:Yeah it's definitely been a roller coaster of emotions. You start out with this puppy who's cute and willing to learn, and then they get to a certain age where they're like, yeah, yep, I forgot everything you've ever taught me. And then you know our issues that feed into her from what we've done. Um, and then now seeing it, seeing her perform like she's supposed to, is crazy.
Speaker 2:It's amazing what's amazing to you is that you know everybody's going to make mistakes. I mean seasoned trainers, people that have trained well are making sometimes simple mistakes. I make mistakes with my dogs. I mean it's going to make mistakes. I mean seasoned trainers, people that have trained well are making sometimes simple mistakes. I make mistakes with my dogs. I mean it's going to happen. But it's cool that the mistakes don't have to define you. Look at those mistakes. Yeah, we did that. Oh well, now you get to work through it and that's the beauty of it to me.
Speaker 2:I think that's amazing, like everybody's trying to be perfect they amazing, like everybody's trying to be perfect they're trying I don't want to do anything wrong. Well, that causes people's fear of doing things wrong, causes more problems with their dogs than anything, because when you're afraid to do something wrong, you're it prevents you from doing the right things it and it just does so.
Speaker 2:You, it's pretty. I told somebody at member weekend because they had a concern. I forget exactly what it was, but I said it's really hard to mess up a dog. I think they had a six-month-old dog. They had some questions about it. I was like it's really hard to mess up a dog because they're super forgiving too. You make a mistake, that's okay, they're going to make a mistake.
Speaker 2:We've got to be forgiving as well. You would have to basically try, because we'll have members that come in with three-year-old dogs that they've gotten, that have washed out from training or somebody has essentially abused, forcing them, and they just did a bad job at it because they didn't understand how to train dogs really. Therefore, they didn't do a good job and the dogs are basically a basket case and we've been able to see some of those be you know, regenerated and turned into a really good dog. So, if that can happen, anybody that has due diligence and care, that's actually implementing and doing your best, you don't have nothing to fear. Just give it your all and it's going to work out.
Speaker 2:And that's the way it does, and y'all have done a great job and are a great example of that. Just a simple little mistake, but you're able to work through it and I think you're probably better off for it now, because you learned the principles of okay, this is how dogs learn, this is how I train things. I bet you'll never forget those lessons and you'll be able to apply them and all your future dogs are just going to be even sharper and sharper. And same for Ellie she's getting sharper. I mean she's incredibly sharp. I mean, when I say sharp, she's just crisp on her response, which is amazing, and that's what a lot of people don't have. You know, their dogs just don't. It's just a little bit off and it's that little extra effort that y'all put in that's made all the difference.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm pretty excited for her first hunt and I mean, even talking with you guys and learning from you know the problems that we've had is like we have to set her up for success too. Yeah, so I from you know the problems that we've had is like we have to set her up for success too. Yeah, so I'm gonna pick a a good non-high pressure hunt and yeah and uh, sherry will be there and hopefully get my brother to film it and that. So it'll be pretty cool and uh, I think that's where it'll be a lot, a lot of fun. Like that's where you see the training pay off and we'll really get to enjoy it because, like, take her out and watch her retrieve tons of birds and it'll be uh.
Speaker 3:But the thing that we've learned is like the training continues. It's not like you get to the first hunt and, hey, it's home free. It's like you know, you see, at member weekend, like people with dogs that are four or five years old and they started from a puppy it's they still have to work on things and and, uh, maintain the dog skills and but it's, it's pretty cool to watch. Like you said, like there's it's uh, it would be pretty hard to mess up, like even ellie with her different habits that we we have. It's like at the member weekend. I wasn't focused on her holding the bumper right in the middle, absolutely, I was like if she brings it back by the string.
Speaker 3:But as long as she comes back, because that's what we're trying to solve, we can shape that later yeah you know, and but that corporate, that core principle of her coming back to me is what we were working on yeah so I think that's important too. That we've learned too is if they're doing one area of the retrieve wrong, it's like don't sweat it too much if you're trying to introduce something else. Like you don't have to get on to them for absolutely not coming back perfectly, or something like that. If that's an issue you can squelch a lot of good things.
Speaker 2:It's really, like my dad calls it, the peripheral. There's what's right in front of you and if you're just single-minded and that's all you can focus on, versus, you've got to be able to operate in that peripheral a little bit too, which is just, like you said, exactly what you just said. If I get onto them too hard here, I'm messing up this other stuff which actually may be more important, when, in reality, if you fan the flame here that the dog's doing good and kind of work on that problem a little bit later, you can actually end up getting everything that you want.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is wild, yeah and that's another uh, really good aspect of member weekend is because everybody's training a dog. That's there for the most part and they're watching you and, like you, are focused on what you're doing. But they might see something there and be like hey, like I mean you gave me a correction today with with treating her after I said sit three times and then I treated her and you're like, well, don't make sure you don't do that. And it's like I was just like hey, she sat but I didn't realize what I was really doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, member weekend and even with sherry, like she'll, I'll watch her train ellie and then I, she watches me and we pick up on different things and training in a group and member weekends is very good for that. So, and that's the thing like it's not at member weekend. That's why I say it's so impactful for us as handlers is because nobody's being like, hey, you're screwing up. They're just like, hey, you know I made this mistake and I see you doing it. Just make sure, like this is a way you can correct that and it's very valuable, for the three days that you're there can advance you huge as a handler.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why we really had to mix up those groups too. You know, one year we did it. We had all the young dogs with one, all the old, like man. This doesn't feel right. And then, when we started putting mix in the groups like the way we do now, the cool thing is the more experienced people are also learning too, because when you're looking at someone who is where you used to be, you're starting to learn things and you see them do something like oh, I did that.
Speaker 2:Mental note, I just love it and I love having you guys down here for Member Weekend. Now, sherry, for you, I got a couple of questions. I was thinking I want to hear your perspective on, like so obviously, if he was running the dog, but you are very invested in the training because you've done I guess y'all have equally inputted on the training. Honestly, y'all probably both put in as much work as each other in a lot of capacities. What was it like watching, like knowing that that's your dog? You did all that work too, and he was running her on that first time when he took that lead off, like what was your first thought? And did you run or did he run it first off lead or okay, and so you're kind of watching at member weekend.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. Well, I actually didn't get to see a whole lot because I was with Diesel.
Speaker 2:Oh, you were running Diesel. I was back with him trying to get him to. Get whipped into shape. With the program and I put him away, so I really didn't get to see a whole lot, which was kind of sad, that's okay, we got a really good video of the challenge that we did this year you walking him out there or walking her out, walking Ellie out and she did good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was a fun part this year that you guys added to a little bit of a challenge between the groups.
Speaker 4:But I think too, even though I didn't get to see it, seeing him handle her, even though I mean you could get bitter and be like I did all that, work, work, and now you're getting the reward, but like we're equal partners yeah right, even like husband and wife, like it's really cool to see us both aspects of our training show in her yeah and how each of us, like we, handled her a little differently, but mostly the same, and just to know that we both have incorporated and given to what she has learned and where she's at is cool to see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's amazing. And what is really cool is y'all do handle a little. I mean, y'all are clearly on the same page, right? Otherwise you'd be having issues, right, the dog would be listening to one better than the other, but Ellie and Diesel listens to both of you all the same same level. That's really really cool to see that dynamic and it's also cool to see just how you worked for this morning. One of the things we kind of talked about this morning was the magnet principle and utilizing that to your advantage. The magnet principle and utilizing that to your advantage, but also not like. The leadership principle of like you know, if the dog isn't going exactly following along, like, we feel that we have to like make it happen. But the principle of like well, we're going to put the responsibility back on the dog, we're actually going to give the dog room to fail.
Speaker 2:We're going to give the dog those opportunities too, and when you do that, the dog room to fail. We're going to give the dog those opportunities too, and when you do that, the dog will pretty much should rise to the occasion. If it doesn't, it gives you the opportunity as a handler. Like I view the thing we said, we want to view ourselves as a helper more than anything.
Speaker 2:A lot of times people get that pack mentality and I think they misunderstand the alpha mentality, which, thankfully, you all don't. You've got it down pat, but I want to say that because I know somebody listening to this needs to hear it. They're like, oh, domineering, well, that doesn't actually work as good as being a true leader. A true leader is a helper. Our job is to support and help those dogs unlock their potential. We're not making these dogs do anything. They're already built and designed the way god made them to do these things, and so it's our job to unlock that potential. And so when you view things from that perspective, it gives you a different mentality that allows you to respond differently. And uh, those are one of the things that we talked about. That I thought was cool, and to see you y'all apply it this morning and how like it was like clicking. The dogs are lining up Right and it was uh, it was amazing.
Speaker 3:Yep, it's pretty cool process.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's awesome, what's, uh, okay. So where we're at now, we're on our way to hunting season. It's I'm assuming that's where your mindset's going to prepping right With guiding. That was going to be your first dog in the, in the guiding program. What, uh, what, I guess, what's's your, what's your next steps? What do you, what do you think you're you're going to do to prep for getting her ready for those first few hunts?
Speaker 3:I think basically, um, just try and think of, um, well, we're just gonna, we're excited because, like we've been stuck around I think week 20 ish, yeah, um, for a long time, but just moving forward, but yeah, mid 20s, right where you're transitioning to the field for retrieves yeah, and that's.
Speaker 3:It's exciting because, like now, she's coming back. I know like we've done lining 180 marks and, uh, lining memories and just progressing through, but I think the biggest thing that we're going to focus on and learn from this whole experience is that we going to focus on and learn from this whole experience is that we need to focus on the repetitions, like that speed through it. But anything well, probably anything that we we think we're going to run into as a situation or and basically introduce a new skill for her, is to get those repetitions in different scenarios, that generalization, like if she is good in this area, like we were saying we saw this morning when we trained, it's like take her too far out and she blows by us, but if you move her back and then she came right in and then so just working on that, I think that's the biggest thing. Go home training, but keep those positive experiences in the foresight whatever she's doing, so try to set her up for success, right.
Speaker 3:So, and then get those wins and then keep getting them. But yeah, like I honestly haven't looked too far in in advancing the videos, but uh, I think we'll. We'll go through it pretty quick now.
Speaker 2:You will, without question it's. You know, I call it the walk jog run. You're basically transitioning to the jog and, like within a couple of weeks, once you advance, you're into basically the run phase. You'll introduce so much back to back to back, and the reason you can do that is because that foundation is laid and it's just as simple as adding one component and, uh, one component, one component, and it all fits together because you built that foundation right.
Speaker 2:But one thing I want to highlight, which you just said there is focus on the repetitions, right, a lot of people. But don't underestimate the value and I know you don't because you get this concept now the value of one rep. I think you're saying something that a lot of people might go. They just are going through the motions, they want to want how fast can I get there? I'm just ready to get there. The journey is not the end destination, it's that one rep, one rep at a time, every rep you do will add to it and, like you're taking, by you saying what you just said, you're taking each rep seriously because each rep is one step closer. It's just simple a one step, one retrieve, then you do another and then another and you just keep doing it and then you end up there yeah, yeah, but do that.
Speaker 3:And then I think we'll just basically try and set up a hunt that we can get her out on and and I have a couple spots where we won't shoot a ton of ducks, but it'll be more like one comes in at one time.
Speaker 3:But we got to introduce her gunfire she's fine on. We've done the launcher with her and with the shotgun. I know it's a little bit louder, so we'll introduce her to that and get her prepped on that. But another big thing will probably be and we were talking about this actually on the way over is like when we introduce birds. It's like if we make sure those repetitions and are in place and she's done, you know whatever 200 or 250 reps and came right into us and obeys us in that when we introduce a bird, something new and exciting, yeah, and smell and wings and that, then uh, we won't be um losing ground, like she won't run off, she'll come back in. So I think those are some big obstacles that we have to, because ellie's very much when you introduce something new you saw it with the launcher bumper when she gets something that she really likes, nothing else matters, yeah that's pretty wild so she is loving that launcher bumper yeah, but no, we're pretty excited.
Speaker 3:I gotta keep my excitement down and I think the morning of the hunt will be definitely, uh, definitely, a lot of excitement. Oh yeah, but we'll, uh, I think I'll try to, um, like you said, dissimulate the hunts first, like take her skeet shooting in, add some another shooter, if my brother's out, and and then also, maybe, if I can anyways, go to the spot before season and throw some bumpers out for her. So she's already familiar with that, get some wins. That's smart. So, yeah, but maybe we'll have to do come back on and tell you how the hunt went. Yes, later on, maybe next year, absolutely.
Speaker 2:We definitely need to do a follow up. I mean, we got a lot of plus. We'll be talking a lot about diesel on the next podcast, so nine months old, by the time we get there a little almost two years old, I guess around that time or give or take some change.
Speaker 2:So we'll talk about diesel and just follow up and see how your season went too, because I believe you'll be able to hunt Ellie pretty early in the season, I think, with where you'll all be at, especially with the weather getting the way it is up there for you guys.
Speaker 2:So, it's going to be amazing. But I just want to honor both of you guys for what you've already done so far. I mean people that have never trained a dog before. You've been able to do it and I think you just did it because you wanted to. You put in the work and you made it happen. And you know we appreciate you guys because we couldn't exist without what y'all do. I mean, if y'all didn't implement it, no one would ever know. But y'all did it.
Speaker 2:And you're out there facing those battles and it's amazing to face this as simple as it is. The battles don't feel simple at the time. They feel overwhelming, they feel very challenging or, honestly, at times hopeless, but keeping that positive mindset and belief that, hey, we can do this, and seeing y'all do that and seeing y'all overcome that, and now you have a dog that just had one simple problem. You already built the rest of the foundation and y'all work basically on the backside of that. I would consider you're on the downhill slope, if not basically finished with that problem. So, moving forward, you're going to be able to just see massive progress. So I'm proud of both of y'all and I think again, I just think it's so cool how the dynamic that y'all have, where y'all both are putting in the training for both the dogs, like you're both equally equal partners, as you said, just putting in that work, and I think it's just uh, I think it's amazing.
Speaker 2:So any, uh, what would I want to ask both of y'all this question normally I only have one person to ask this question what would be, uh, some of your just kind of final thoughts that you would share with somebody at this point in time? You know, maybe advice if you could give yourself or someone else in your shoes, you know, what would be your best advice that you could give something that you've learned?
Speaker 4:I think a couple of things for me One, being intentional with, like what you say, like earlier with him telling her to sit three times, and like on third she finally sat. No, like when you tell her to sit, she needs to sit the first time. And I think it's easy for us to be like, oh no, sit, sit, sit. Like not waiting for them to do the action.
Speaker 2:And give them that opportunity to make those mistakes or the success.
Speaker 4:Cause you're like I don't know. We think differently than dogs do and I think oftentimes we don't remember that in training we think like a human does and like so being intentional, and then also don't sweat the small stuff. That's awesome. Sometimes I get to like, oh, you have to be this way and like I'm don't think outside the box. I'm very like okay, this is what the course said. This is what I have to do.
Speaker 4:And like learning your dog and how they learn and it's not going to be the same with every dog and yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Those are really good pieces of advice.
Speaker 4:I know they all sound cliche, but it's true. Yeah, it's awesome. That's a really good piece of advice. Everybody should.
Speaker 3:I know they all sound cliche, but it's true yeah, it's awesome, I think for me, um, I would say like we were going through the course again with diesel and um, we're right now we're just just went through where you're working with, uh, violet in the lane and throwing the bumper, and I didn't catch it the first time and I might not have watched it, because you might have watched it but I should have watched it. But you said get the five retrieves, because at the end of the week you'll have 25 retrieves or whatever it is, and I didn't realize how important that was. You know what I mean. Like and and we've even talked about it Like we introduce her, you know, off, off the lead, like extend her to 50 yards and then get 10 retrieves or whatever.
Speaker 3:You know, we kind of feel that makes her secure in it and like that, uh, don't skip over that stuff. You know, you know, don't do I do I mean if you, if you're having a bad day or whatever, and you can get to, but you know, like you said, at the end of the week you're gonna have this many uh repetitions of that, yeah, and and how important that is. So I think that would be for me is like, don't skip through those, even though it seems trivial, it's like just going to the place board, sending her to the place board five times or or whatever it is do go through the process and because you got to trust the process and it will, it'll pay off. Yeah, so you might not think about it. Oh, she did it perfect twice. Okay, let's move on. It's like those repetitions, form habits like, and those stick with the dog.
Speaker 2:Wow, man those are two solid pieces of advice, or three. I mean that's incredible, that's noteworthy, that's very noteworthy. Well, it's been an honor to have both of you on here. It's been an honor to spend the weekend with you, get to train with you, hang out, eat some lunch and just connect with you guys. Again, we're proud of both of you all for what you've done. I look forward to continuing this relationship and friendship and also just seeing how things continue to go. It's going to be again like you said. I would love to do a follow-up and we'll get to tell the world how things have gone over the next year. Man, I'm excited for you guys. We'll also link you down in the description if you're on YouTube. We'll link your guide service down in the description if anybody wants to find it. I mean world-class hunting and some of the basically the best. If you want to kill some ducks and geese. That's about as good as it's going to get.
Speaker 3:So appreciate you guys so much. Well, we appreciate you and taking the time to do the videos and put in the effort to make the course because I don't think we'd have a dog, probably and at least not one that's this good without it and even calling behind the camera, spending time filming everything and yeah, but we really appreciate it. So looking forward to continuing the journey and for next year's member weekend and building more relationships too, with the other members.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Well, thank y'all, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the build from here podcast. To learn more about retriever training or our podcast, visit cornerstone gundogacademycom slash podcast.