Build From Here
Build From Here
Your Dog Gets To, Not Has To | Chris Rowland
BFH #069 When Chris Rowland's wife gifted him a Cornerstone Gundog Academy membership for his birthday, neither of them realized it would spark a transformative journey into the world of science-based retriever training. In this captivating conversation, Chris shares how his background in psychology helped him appreciate the profound difference between dogs that work because they "get to" versus those that work because they "have to."
Chris takes us through his evolution from casual hunter to devoted retriever trainer, detailing how he's successfully trained bench-bred show Labradors to perform at impressive levels in the hunting field and formal hunt tests. His main dog Weatherby stands just three master passes away from becoming only the 88th dog in history to achieve both AKC Champion and Master Hunter titles—a testament to the effectiveness of positive reinforcement training and the capabilities of show-line Labs.
The discussion delves into fascinating comparisons between traditional force-based methods and science-based training, exploring how rewarding dogs for desired behaviors creates retrievers that work enthusiastically rather than out of obligation. Chris offers invaluable insights for handlers navigating both the hunting field and competitive hunt tests, emphasizing that while the skills overlap, the priorities and handling approaches differ significantly.
For anyone training a retriever, Chris's parting wisdom resonates deeply: "Take your time, it's an ultra-marathon not a race." Through colorful anecdotes about his multiple dogs and newly-established Elmwood Labradors breeding program, he demonstrates that patience, consistency, and understanding canine psychology ultimately produces better results than rushing through training milestones.
cornerstone gundog academy online resources to help you train your retriever welcome to the built from here podcast on this episode.
Speaker 2:I am so honored and excited to bring chris roland on. I've got to just talk about chris for a minute. We were talking and I cannot believe we actually haven't had him on an episode before. Chris has been with us for a while. We were talking and I cannot believe we actually haven't had him on an episode before. Chris has been with us for a while.
Speaker 2:I remember one of my first memory of Chris. Maybe it was on the phone, but the one that I specifically remember I believe was our first member weekend, maybe maybe second, I don't remember you could correct me on that, but I remember Chris arrived early and we were running around trying to get everything together and Chris just immediately jumped in and started helping. He's like what can I do? What can I do to help you guys? And that's the type of guy Chris is. Chris is always there, willing to help, An ideal CGA member. He's passionate about his dogs, he's passionate about the training and a hard worker and, frankly, just is all in on this game.
Speaker 2:Me and Chris were talking before we got on this call and you'll get to hear in a second, but Chris is one of these guys that he is truly. He's in the deep end now. He is way all in and we'll get into that in his story in a minute. But I've just got nothing but good things to say about Chris and he's helped us out with so many member weekends and has even helped coach other members and help other people along the journey. So he's gone from you know, getting into this journey himself, to now he's even been able to help us help other people, which has just been incredible. So, um, with that said, Chris, it's an honor to have you here and we're just so grateful for you. We're proud of you for all you've done, with your dog specifically, and for helping other people. So welcome to Built From here. I'm so excited you're here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I appreciate that, josh. You know, when we, when we started the journey with the dogs and my wife actually is the person who found CGA and and and shipped us into the deep end you know we didn't know exactly what we were getting into but found out pretty quickly. You know I think you alluded to it I had a we were having an issue with recall with a three and a half month old puppy. You know, outside and your dad calls me back like half an hour after I post the question and I'm stunned and shocked that. You know, one of the founders of the program's given me a call to help walk me through it and everything. But that was instantly.
Speaker 3:I knew what CGA was all about and very quickly after, you know, chatting with your dad and then coming down and meeting you guys. It was just, it was four years ago, it was late March, late March. It was late March, late March and instantly, you know, the family feel, the family connect in the, in the community feel and all that stuff. Just, you know we were, if we weren't hooked on hot dogs, we got hooked that weekend. You know, getting to meet you guys and really finding out what CGA is all about. It's more than it's more than you know running line and memories and and working drills and training puppies and all that stuff. It really is, uh, about the community you guys are building to um, help retriever trainers and handlers have a better understanding and, and you know, create better bonds with their dogs.
Speaker 3:So, um, I'm thrilled to be part of this.
Speaker 2:Well, this is. I'm excited to talk with you on this episode. There's so many directions we can go, you know, and you'll be on more than one episode. I think the first thing to do is you know first of all. Thank you for saying that, but let's kind of dive into your background a little bit. Let's go back before you know Cornerstone back. You know what got you into hunting. Let's let the world know, like you know, who is Chris and how did he fall into love with, with hunting and dogs?
Speaker 3:Okay, yes, so I'm. I'm fortunate I live, uh, we're, we're upstate New York. We're right where the St Lawrence river dumps out of Lake Ontario. Um, there's big water. Broadville hunting used to be really good, big Bigwater, broadbill hunting. You know puddle, duck marsh hunting and everything.
Speaker 3:And my, my dad was a is was an avid waterfowl or his father was. So I got a chance to get involved at a very young age. We had a, we had a lab when I was a kid. I don't know what kind of a duck dog she was, but uh, I, she went, she picked up the occasional duck forest and everything. Um, and I just, uh, I just waterfowling is is a passion. Um, I've, I've chased most of what you can shoot at um, you know, here in in New York and the North country and uh and everything, and there's nothing that compares with um, ducks and geese, and take that, take that to a whole nother level when you've got your buddy. And I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I'm just going to angle this real quick.
Speaker 2:I got Mr.
Speaker 3:Mr Weatherby sleeping. Oh yeah, he's going to kind of wake up. Um, doing it, doing it with your dog that you trained is I mean you, it's the best thing. You know, I can't, I don't, I don't have words for that. So, um, you know, we've chased, we've chased them and, uh, I've just, I've been very fortunate to to do some different things and, uh, we have really really loved the formal training um that we've done.
Speaker 3:We've done with the dogs we have at home. I've had a couple generations of hunting retrievers that I've used. I started 25 years ago with Walters and all the other. I've got a whole library of antique books that we used. My first dog taught me a heck of a lot, I think, um, I wish I would've had Cornerstone with him, cause he was he was a pretty darn good dog, um, but you learn, it evolves, it grows Um, and you know, as we, as we came to four and a half years ago, it was time to retire the, the girl you know who was my hunting partner at the at the time, um, and we searched long and hard for you know what we wanted um, which was we're. We're kind of into the, the bench bread, the show labs, um, and don't let anybody tell you that a bench dog can't hunt, because they can.
Speaker 2:I can attest, I've seen with my own eyes. It's more, more than achievable. And Mr Weatherby, he gets passionate about it too, so he's fired up for sure as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, we, we, we searched for what we wanted as far as looks and temperament and ability, and and I went out and picked them up in January and came home and Sarah said I need you to log into this website. It's your, it's your birthday present, wow. So I'm like OK. So I clicked on it. I'm like online training. I'm like Sarah, I've done this a few times. We've got all the books and stuff. You know it's, it's without. She goes, she goes.
Speaker 3:I spent a lot of time looking for this, so just click on it. So I did and I loved the psychology of it and the thought. My educational background is psych and counseling and different stuff. So, as I kind of dove into it and did a little bit of homework, I loved the idea of the dog learning. And this is this is very nuanced, but the dog learning as opposed to you teaching, uh, the dog figures it out for themselves and that is the foundation of what a great hunting dog is.
Speaker 3:Two or three years later, they're put in a situation where the wind's blowing, the waves are crashing, the birds who knows where, and they've they've got to piece it out and puzzle it out and everything. And I think that you know you go from little eight week old puppy jumping on the place board and staring up at you with those big Brown eyes, uh, to, you know the, the, the machine that you've created, that's. You know he might be 200 yards across the field, or or fighting through surf, you know to, to get to a bird. And, uh, you know you, you took that program and created that creature, which.
Speaker 2:I think is just uh, it's super cool, it really is, and it's that you know the way you described that just gives me memories of when we were filming with Miss Violet and and a lot of the other dogs that I've trained. It's really hard to believe that it goes by so quick. It feels slow in the process, but when you look back on it it goes by so quick and it's amazing to see how they learn and how passionate they are. And that's what I love about these dogs is they're passionate about it like we are. In fact, they're probably more passionate than we are. They will go even when we won't go. These dogs just love what they do and that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:So your educational background talk to me about that. You know how did that? Obviously that played a factor and a role when you got into this. It seems like you kind of thought you had it figured out, but kind of coming into it, maybe you realized there were some good things that you could learn and maybe some of your background had something to play with that. And how cornerstone aligns it from that aspect, since it's science-based training you know we never really actually use that term, um, because I always try to dump things down, to make it super, super simple, make it easy for everybody. But the truth is that if you get down to the complex complexity of it, it is science based and it's rooted in right, the science behind how dogs learn.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, um, like I said, I, psychology is kind of where I came from, um, counseling and and schools and worked in college settings and stuff, and uh, when you I don't want to say when you think about manipulation, but in a way, when you, when you think about it, I mean essentially, you know, in trying to help the dog learn, um, and eventually teaching concepts and all that stuff, um, learning theory, pre-med principle, all those different things, if you, if you take the time to watch the videos that you guys did early on and you digest that, it makes, it makes training so much easier. You no longer do you have to. I mean, you think of the eight week old puppy holding the trade up, pushing the butt down, saying sit, all of those different things that you have to go through in order to achieve one rep towards, you know, your desired result. It might take a touch longer in the initial, you know, training sessions for them to kind of figure the concept out, but once they start the process of learning on their own, I mean it's just, it's wonderful to watch and you know, we, we, you know, as we did, as we did the live calls over the last year a lot of times, you know, people run into roadblocks and I think you know, when you're training a dog, there are there are speed bumps, there are roadblocks, there are dead ends that you have to find a way to either backtrack and fix or you have to come up with workarounds and, um, if you can, if you can think of ways that you're able to manipulate either the situation or manipulate the dog to put them in a better, you know, situation.
Speaker 3:To be successful, uh, it just, it makes this, it makes this process more fun. Oh yeah, less headaches. You know, there, certainly you're going to run across the field yelling and screaming and you know all that good stuff.
Speaker 3:If you, if you, if you aren't, then you need to. That person needs to do a video and show how to train dogs. Um, but yeah, it's just, it's been enjoyable. And I have to say, you know, I'm sure we'll touch on other things later, but my wife has, sarah has jumped in with both feet and has enjoyed the thinking part of it and trying. You know, because we've got. We've got four pups at home right now that we're training. We've got two that are. I'm not going to call them finished because I'm going to, I'm going to go out on a limb and trying, you know, because we've got, we've got four pups at home right now that we're training. We've got two that are. I'm not going to call them finished Cause I'm going to, I'm going to go out on a limb and say I don't care how good your dog is, they're never finished.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You're always, you're always trying to achieve. There's always something more that you could achieve, um, but we've. And then we've got two young pups, younger pups that are probably we're probably in the neighborhood of week 40. We're working on solidifying, going back and solidifying some things. Because of the older dogs they've been, the pups have been exposed to some of the more advanced stuff. So you know, we're kind of weaving 52 plus the fabric of that into what we're doing.
Speaker 3:But it's just, it's a lot of fun to see something happen in the moment and know that you have an understanding of what went wrong. Or, if you think for a moment, you can kind of puzzle it out, but you got the skill set to be able to adjust and change. So it's not and I'm not going to force is force, the idea of force fetch and what that process is. You know you can push the dog through things sometimes, but, um, I think it's been proven scientifically that, um, the dog that it that learns it and and figures it out, gains the concept, has a, has a better doggy understanding of it. Um, and we'll do it with a tail wag and, you know, enjoy it and everything. So it's been, it's been a lot of fun. We've really, um, we've just, I mean we've we've jumped in and enjoyed it. So, um, we got it, we, we've enjoyed it so much. Josh, we've got pup number five coming home here at the beginning of June. It'll be a uh, it'll be a son or a daughter of Weatherby the beginning of June.
Speaker 3:It'll be a. It'll be a son or a daughter of Weatherby, wow. So we're excited. We're excited about that and I'm I've made a promise to myself, you know, I think when you train one dog you find you know, from week to week, day to day, week to week, you're very true to the program.
Speaker 3:When dog number two comes along and this is this is my experience dog number two comes along and you start to think you know stuff. So you don't. You know some things you don't do as much. Of other things you do more of. You're still true to the program, but you may be not as daily regimented as an amateur. Dog number three and four come along and kind of that same thing, you know, you. You look at one week and you're like that's, we're going to hold off on that, because this is, you know, something else Pup number five, we're starting it at week number three. You know, in Cornerstone, and back to daily, following the lesson plan Continuity builds puppy, you know. So we're going to, we're going to, you know, reinvest in that, that daily I'm going to get up in the morning, I'm going to have my cup of coffee with you on video.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right, I enjoy that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, and you know, just get back to it and remember that it's, it's basics. There's. There's nothing more important than those early weeks and creating the foundation of what obedience is going to look like a couple of years down the road and we can get in the really deep weeds. You know, touching on these different things, you know the Facebook group, which is so awesome. I see questions come up and I want to jump in and write paragraphs of different things and I want to jump in and write paragraphs of different things and thank God there are.
Speaker 3:there are great members that jump in with quick little thoughts and answers that are that are always super helpful. But it's, we're looking forward to it. It's going to be fun to just, you know, again, start over and work our way through and then incorporate the older dogs in the daily, in those, in those basics, the foundational obedience and different stuff.
Speaker 2:Uh, so that's interesting. It's interesting you said it that way and then it kind of goes that way. Um, you know, everybody can find themselves in that way, but the truth is it's actually funny that you're talking about that. My, the tip that we are sending out this coming Monday. Uh, for those that are listening to this episode, the tip will be long gone by then, because this one will not air then.
Speaker 2:But it was about consistent, steady plotting is what creates success. So, like, the number one key to being successful is following a plan, and I was listening to that myself. I listened to my tip later and I was driving down the road thinking about it, because I always do that. How can we get better? I thought you know, that's a dang good tip, because if I don't listen to my own advice at times and don't follow a plan, it's tempting when you feel like you've arrived or you know what you're doing, or you get comfortable.
Speaker 2:Let's actually turn the tables here. It's not about arriving, it's about being comfortable when you become comfortable with where you're at. It's not about arriving, it's about being comfortable. When you become comfortable with where you're at, it's easy just to kind of rely on your natural giftings, or it's easy to rely on what you know. But going back to, like you said, the core, which is following the plan and implementing the plan, is going to give you better results than just doing what's up here.
Speaker 2:And even for myself my dogs get better now because of the course that we produce, because it's honestly easier for me to just go to the course and look at the game plan that we've already built, even though I'm the one that created that game plan. It's easier for me to do that than it is to just go out and train on what I feel like I should do at the moment. And whenever you measure your progress and you actually follow a game plan, the results are normally better and you get more consistency by doing that. So I thought that was cool how you said that, because and everybody's on different stages of the journey, right Sometimes we want to pivot and there's nothing wrong with doing that. There's nothing wrong with trying things differently. But we did put a lot of thought into that course and it just seems I find myself getting better results plodding through steadily as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think again, you know when. When you look at Cornerstone, it's it's about continuity, it's about building on the previous day, getting the positive reps. So when you start to, when you subtract a week because you think, oh, I don't, my dog already knows decoys, I don't have to do the intro to decoy week. Well, you just missed out on that entire week. One or two sessions a day, the just the basic obedience.
Speaker 3:And I think that you know, we, we do a lot of obedience work. I'm lucky because, sarah, I mean they, the dogs, get double dipped on. You know they're constantly, they're constantly getting put through it. So when you, when you don't get those reps in, you know, I think a lot of people think, well, I went through, I went, and your dad and I have had great conversations about this. I went through weeks one through 20. Why isn't my dog perfectly obedient? You know it's advanced obedience. Why aren't they obedient when we go to Lowe's or when I go to the dog park? And you know my internal dialogue is because he needs 5,000 more reps to get that locked in, you know, so that at a one-year-old pup can do those things.
Speaker 3:And you know it's, uh, it's just something, it's, it's daily, constant reinforcement, um, and when you even miss, I think one day, especially early on, when you miss one day, uh, you know you're, you're not gonna get what you might have gotten out of. You know know, pop in that moment. You can always get it back but you know, for that, for that timeframe, you, you know you've lost, you've lost an opportunity there.
Speaker 2:So so drill it and, yeah, just put in the work, be consistent, and it's going to feel repetitive and it's going to feel monotonous at times. Um, there's a reason for that. It's thorough. We're being thorough. You'd be grateful you did it 100%, so going through with Weatherby. So, sarah, actually I got a funny question for you. I've never asked this. This is kind of off topic and we'll get back on topic but how did you and Sarah meet? This would be just cool to know. I never have asked you this.
Speaker 3:Okay, so Sarah's father was. Well, we were. I switched from public school to local Catholic school in sixth grade and we were in the same classroom. So we, as sixth, seventh, eighth graders, we knew each other. You know it was a small school.
Speaker 3:But Sarah's father was the athletic director and coached baseball and basketball at the local high school. And in ninth grade or in eighth grade he brought me up, picked me up one day, brought me up in the spring, put me through physical testing and all that and said, uh, you're playing JV baseball. And so from there on I joke all the time that, um, her father paid me to date her um for years, um, you know, as part of as part of playing uh basketball and baseball for him, uh, through high school and everything.
Speaker 3:But we were we you know what we're we're very fortunate. We got to be good friends in early high school. We didn't start dating until um, our senior year. Um, and we were I think we were really good friends at that point Um, which I think you know, just a great foundation for for our relationship and um, certainly through college and stuff.
Speaker 3:You, you know there's bumps here and there and you know, and things that you work through, but, um, we've been fortunate and blessed with uh our 30 year anniversary will be in June Um four great kids. You know you've had the chance to meet Um, I think you've met all of them, uh and um, we're just uh, we're at that stage where, uh, I was able to step away from education at the beginning of COVID. Um, and for those of you that are still fighting the fight, god bless you. Um. And and that was when Weatherby, you know, weatherby came home and we, we kind of started this journey and, uh, she has become more and more involved and it's something that we're looking at. Um, you know it was something that we can do together.
Speaker 3:Uh she doesn't. She doesn't want any part of a golf course. I'm trying to interest her. In her younger days She'd sit in the sun on the front of the boat fishing. Um, I am trying to get her interested in uh fly fishing, since we have that.
Speaker 3:And she you can. That's a little bit more of a thinking person's pursuit and I'm trying to get her into wing shooting sports. She's breaking a few clays right now. I told her that the epitome of all of it will be shooting a bird over top of Nix, who she's done the majority of the advanced training. Shoot that bird and have Nix deliver that bird to hand, and that you know I'll get all misty eyed, you know, in that moment. I think that'll be special.
Speaker 2:That's so cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's been a fun journey. It's. You know everyone. There's good days and not so good days, but most of the days are really good, so it's been enjoyable. And when you're with the dogs, there's only a lot of arguing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that I'll tell you what she is. Dove into this thing with you. I remember the first member weekend when she was kind of filling it all out, that she, she didn't come to the first one. The next one that y'all are at, she came down to um, if I'm not mistaken, and she was filling it out. Then the next one, she was all in and this last one, I mean, she's conducting, y'all are conducting, y'all are making things happen, y'all are all in.
Speaker 3:So I I told her. I said it would be very cool. I said you take one of the, you take one of the groups, um and maybe we can, maybe it can be all women, the women of cgaGA, you know, at a member's weekend?
Speaker 2:Oh, that would be cool.
Speaker 3:She's getting there. You know, I think she's learned a lot in the training. She is the type of person that she wants to be an expert in it before stepping, you know, out, front and center yeah, there's any true experts or not, but uh, I think that she's getting comfortable enough where, um, you know, she, she can certainly look at something and and lend a, lend an ear, and be able to help with different things, um, whether she's telling me, whether she's telling me what to say, or you know she's, she's getting involved, but, um, I think one of the things we're excited about again I know this is this is future and we're getting there, but Cornerstone, great Lakes, east.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:One of the chapters is we get that property ready to roll and open up the opportunity for people to come in. I'm hoping that she dives in a little bit more. It's one thing for us to take the four dogs and go set up a training session and all that, but I think that you really, when you start to train with other people, you get a different perspective, which I think is super valuable.
Speaker 3:You know we've talked about the watch one do, one teach one concept, and I think it definitely lends itself in dog training. So to be able to see people do things a little bit differently than how you do it and be able to take that information in, um, you know, I think that'll be, that'll be good for both of us. Yeah, we've done it, sorry. I just you know, um, we got, we got involved with involved with both an HRC and an AKC retriever training groups here and we are the minority or majority of one in our group. They call us the Amish because we don't use electricity, but there are, you know, regardless of how people train, there are people that have great understanding of dogs. There are people that have that have had many dogs, have worked through things, and I think you know, if you take 52 plus as the foundation and the, you know the, the path you follow when you pull in some other things, especially with the older dogs. Um, it really makes for fun, interesting training.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Thinking about different things.
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Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I was going to say I think that well, I mean, you're spot on with that. But I think one of the big things of using the course as a basis gives the ability for the community to have something to. They have a foundation to work from. But then you've got the nuances that everybody does with every different dog and then having that collective of people and I believe there's the Cornerstone community is second to none. It's absolutely incredible. So having that foundation of keeping everybody grounded and not getting off into la-la land, like you see on the Internet happens all the time that's the problem with those groups. There's nothing to keep everybody grounded and you're in there and there's off the wall advice Absolutely off the wall advice.
Speaker 2:But with Cornerstone you got the nuances of yeah, we've got something to keep us centered. But you know, maybe I tweak things this way. That's a good idea right there, and that's the collective of the community, and you learn so much that way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the modern term of crowdsourcing you know, for training is I mean, there's a lot of value in what people experience daily. Not all of it applies. You know, every dog is different. You're all. You know the axiom, you're, you train the dog that's in front of you, um, so it may not be exactly the same, but if you're a student of it a little bit, you know what someone else had success or failure with. If you can use that, you know why exactly. You know it's like we do with our kids. I experienced all this stuff, so you don't have to. So you know that's right. But and I think I want to go back and say I said cornerstone is the basis. I you know it's really important that cornerstone is not basic, um, what you can do, what you can do with a dog, whether you know we do, we, we are in the field with them all season. We also do the hunt, testing in the off season.
Speaker 3:Our dogs are usually miles ahead of comparably age and stage to dogs that are trained through other methods. And even I think in some regards we're fortunate. There are some good pros near us. There's one great guy that's been a, that's been a mentor, that's helped us with some different things. You know if you follow 52 plus, if you're, if you're diligent, if you're, you know if you persevere through things and if you take your time, you know again it's, it's not a, it's not a race, it's that ultra marathon. You know and think of it that way. You're going to, you're going to have a dog and of course there's there's roadblocks and bumps and stuff like that, but you're going to have a dog that at a young age has a skillset that is like people are, like your dog did that. How old is he? You don't use an e-collar and you sometimes you see the light bulb come on for those folks.
Speaker 2:Love that, love those light bulb moments.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. You know, we're trying to convert, we're trying to convert people and we've got a couple of people that have have checked it out and looked into it and I see, actually every once in a while on Facebook, I'll see something Cornerstone related and I'll see a name pop up on a like and I'm like what that person, you know what are they so Nice? But yeah, I mean it's. You know, again, we could, we could talk about the awesomeness of 52 plus. This could be this conversation and the next one and everything.
Speaker 2:So Well, I appreciate it. Clearly it's made an impact on you and you've thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah, and I didn't pay Chris to say all this. This is all all from Chris, but I mean clearly you are a product, of the product for sure, I mean you have implemented it and your, your dogs speak volumes. If mean you have implemented it and your, your dogs speak volumes. If we if we weren't here talking to people were to watch your dogs, they're going to see that your dogs are excellent. Let's actually hit on something real quick.
Speaker 3:Not if they were in our group at members weekend. Well, that was. That was a little embarrassing, but they have good days and bad days.
Speaker 2:Everybody does, everybody does. No, they did. Well, let's hit on something real quick, because you have a unique position. Obviously you're a disciple of Cornerstone right. You follow it, you implement it and you said you're kind of the one of the minority. They call you the Amish right in the different camps. So obviously there's people listening to this podcast right now that may be either entering into this world and they have no idea what they're entering into yet.
Speaker 2:There's people that are in the hunt test world per se, that style of training. And there's people that are in our world and our style of training, our world and our style of training. But there is a lot of confusion around this concept of you can train a dog without a knee, collar, or what's this whole concept of you know, if you get in the hunt test world, they'll have you believing the only way to train a dog is to force fetch them. If that dog's not force fetched, it is not proven or it's not proofed, meaning you have no ability to work the dog. But I would say that's a very misguided statement because it's neglecting the science behind how dogs learn. You're neglecting a large portion of what you have available to you, the tools at your fingertips. And you know, really, we'll just get into it right here, right now. Right, there's positive reinforcement, there's negative reinforcement, there's negative reinforcement, there's positive punishment, negative punishment, and positive and negative don't mean good or bad, they mean application, applying, addition or subtracting, taken away. And so that, distinguisher of negative reinforcement versus positive reinforcement, you're either negatively reinforcing, which means you're taking away something that is undesirable for the dog so that they're more likely to do what they're doing Reinforcement right, you're reinforcing the skill and that's kind of like the whole. If you get too force-fetched, like that specific part of the training ear, pinch you, pinch that ear, you're applying pressure. I like to say pain, because that's legitimately what it is. We're making the dog uncomfortable. I don't know what else you want to call it, but other than pain. And then when the dog does what you want it to, you stop pinching that ear and the dogs. The light bulb hopefully goes off pretty quick. Oftentimes it doesn't, and then you got. That's when the dog has a hard time with it. The light bulb goes off and the dog says, oh, if I don't want to experience those consequences, then I just need to simply do this. And then boom, light bulb click, they've got it. Great, great, okay, that's all fine and dandy and it does work.
Speaker 2:But you hit on something earlier that I think is important, that I kind of want to highlight, and that is the dogs doing it because they get to do it or because they have to do it. When you're going with that force route as your primary method for teaching and training and reinforcing, then what you're doing is that is your base, that's what your foundation is and that means everything you're going to do is through that filter or through that lens per se. So that's how you view the world, that's how the dog views the world. That's kind of a grim way to view the world, because if everything you do is tied back to avoiding pain, then that is no way to live, in my opinion, because you know what I mean. Fine, yeah, you're going to live that way, but is that getting the results that you want to? That will create a dog that will perform the skills, versus the way we are kind of teaching and training from the beginning, which is you go back to week three and if you're not a member, you can sign up for our free preview right now and check out week three. We actually have it in there in the preview, but we are shaping through, teaching our dogs to seek out rewards. So, rather than avoiding that ear pinch, when the dog starts to do the desired behavior, they're getting a reward and they start getting a treat. They're positively reinforced. You keep doing that and now the dog develops a mindset of okay, this is fun, this is good, and the more of this I do, the more reward I get, and I like to be rewarded. So I'm going to do more.
Speaker 2:So one dog is doing things to avoid something and it's doing. There's two, two motivations, two totally different motivations. I'm avoiding pain or this is awesome. I love this, I want to keep doing this and both produce dogs that will do the work. They will perform the skills. But one dog does it because it wants to do it. The other dog does it because it has to do it and for me personally, the thing you said earlier was a dog with a wagging tail. It's happy about the work. I like that personally. I just do. I just I feel better about it. It makes me feel good. My dog's happy. I'm happy the whole nine yards versus my dog not being happy about it. I just want my dog to be happy and if this is the way I can do that, then obviously that's the way I'm doing it.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying we're going to neglect negative reinforcement, and this is where I would say the distinguisher is for what we do and this is super important to get. We're not selling out to positive reinforcement only because why would you do that? You would be crazy if you sold out to. That is 25%. If this was a quadrant, that's 25% of the equation Negative reinforcement, there's another 25% Positive punishment, there's 25% Negative punishment, there's 25% right there. So, in my opinion, why not use everything that's available to you? Now, your base is important. Is your base going to be gets to or has to? And I like to choose the gets to, not has to.
Speaker 2:So I wanted to just kind of highlight that and I wanted to say that for the listeners here so they kind of get a concept of that.
Speaker 2:But let's talk about that from your perspective.
Speaker 2:And because you kind of maybe use some older school methods before Cornerstone and then, obviously, as you got into this, especially with your background, you were starting to enjoy this, can you give like a real world example of where the light bulb started clicking for you? Because obviously, when you probably when you first began Cornerstone, theoretically you knew, ok, yeah, this will probably work, this is going to make sense. But just because we know something up here doesn't mean we've experienced it here, the fullness of it. So you probably still had some doubts along the way. I would love to actually let's hammer some of those doubts, let's talk about that real quick. Maybe some of the challenges you face, some of the roadblocks you face, because that's one thing we don't want to do is shy away from the reality of what happens out there. And then I also want to talk about how maybe you overcame those and you start to see some results or some fruit of the labor that you are putting in, and how that maybe shaped your perspective. Hopefully that wasn't too long of a question.
Speaker 3:I think there's six parts to that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pretty much Sorry about that.
Speaker 3:No, that's okay. So you know, I think, when I, when I'll go back to my first dog, um and I've never, never, we never used a knee collar, you know, before, um, because I was afraid I was going to screw up, I did not like you know, punishment is a is a big loud no or you know, um, something along that line.
Speaker 3:So we were, we. I think the training was just through repetition. You know, whatever the concept was it was, it was the reps, the reps, the reps, until Pop got the concept. And I mentioned before, first, dog was really I would love to have seen where CGA would have taken him. Wow, because he was really good, he was smart, he trained me, you know, basically, and we did that.
Speaker 3:I was very fortunate at that time. I was a stay-at for for many, many years and we would go out three or four times a day with, with the baby and I, you know, put them in the bouncy chair and we would use the front yard as our training ground and do stuff. And I think, through through repetition and there's a lot of good information out there, right, I mean a lot of the science behind where the training concepts that CGA uses have been used, you know, over the last X number of years. So you know there's some good books out there that have good ideas how people achieve certain results. That's the differing factor. So you know we did, or I did at that time it was mainly just repetition and some stuff was solid and some stuff wasn't so good and some stuff might've been really good, um, and as, as you know, as you move forward, I think, as we, as we started with 52 plus, I thought, okay, so, um, I understand the concept and this was, you know, like in those those first days. I understand, I understand the concept of clicker and treat. Um, if they can teach evolved mammals, killer whales, uh, dolphins to killer whales not to eat people in the swimming pool, you know, then, there's, there's clearly there is higher level thought that's been put into this, and not not to say that you know it was lower level thought for dog training.
Speaker 3:But you know, when we, when, when you start to realize that you don't have to, you't have to force it, it's something that the dog can pick up and then you shape, it's all about. I mean, I think that's that is what cornerstone is about. It's about you. You've got a block of clay and you're going to shape and mold that and you're doing that through, um, sometimes it's it's very minute adjustments to things. Think of force that or not force, fetch, but fetch, hold and release. Yeah, how nuanced that process can be and how you hold the dog to pick up something, hold something, deliver to hand and everything you can, with all aspects of 52 plus. But that and other areas, it's not just this, it's shaping it how you want it to be.
Speaker 3:And I, you know I maybe I don't have the cool words to to kind of express it, but, um, you learn early on. So I think I was like, okay, he's going to come if I got treats right, you know, he's got, he's in the hallway, he's got nowhere else to go. He's going to come when I've got the treats. But then it's not. It's not about you know. Everyone's like, oh, you're just bribing your dog, you know. Well, that isn't the case, you know, because you can. You know, as you guys teach in the program, as you move along in the program, you click to mark the response that you want, but the treat can be 20 minutes later, and that's I mean for an older dog, right?
Speaker 3:So it's not at that point you're not really bribing the dog and a bribe is a scratch of the ear or a pet of the head. Bribe is just something that you know is a reward for, you know, doing the desired activity. But I really feel like as we got into hey bud, as we got into our he just woke up, weatherby B, he's going to scratch himself as we started moving through the process, I was instantly like, okay, so this is happening, right, this is kind of cool. You know those first few days when little 15 pounds of puppy runs and jumps on the place board and turns and looks at you like I did it, let's go. You know, you see, instantly, you see, you know that glimmer of a year from now, that same, that same kind of reaction in the dog.
Speaker 3:And whether it be at four and a half, if I ask him if he wants to go do some work, he will. He will, you know, run through the gates of hell to go, grab a bumper and meet me at the door and he's bouncing and jumping, with the tail wagging and it all goes back to those, I think, those initial days where he did something right. He was rewarded. But the reward starts to create that. You know that neural pathway, that I did that right. That's the right thing, you know. So, reward or no reward at this point, his reward now is the opportunity to go out and, and you know, and do the work and everything.
Speaker 2:So it's uh, that's a good point. That's a good point, you know, and I love what you're saying there, cause you're hitting on something that I think a lot of people may not realize there's a lot more that meets the eye than meets the eye. That is going on when you're doing those weeks. Um, there's a lot going on there that you cannot see, but it's setting you up for the future and there's some detail there. There's some depth to that. It's not just surface level oh, click or treat, like you said, bribing there is some depth to what is happening right there. That is unlocking your dog's potential and making it really setting it up to be all that. It can be a later, which is what we want to do, right, we want to unlock that potential. It's already there, we just have to unlock it, and then that's how it's up to us, the trainer, to unlock that and draw that out.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Yeah, I think you know people ask. You know, I think early on they they hit a roadblock and they're like well, my dog doesn't want to pick up the bumper at all, they have no interest in it, and I'm like it is baked into the DNA, it is there. You just you know you're going to get your opportunity to tease it out.
Speaker 2:You've proved that with bench bread dogs and they've done well. Show dogs, your dogs have it. In fact, I remember when you first came. This has proved it even more to me because when you were at member weekend and your dogs were younger, their desire wasn't quite there and I was a little concerned, right Cause we're normally working with these, these working dogs first, these hunting dogs, gun dogs first. These are show dogs that you're working with that are actually beasts. Now I've noticed they mature a little bit slower on that drive but, like you said, it's still in their DNA, rooted deep down in there. It is there and you've been able to unlock it and they're firecrackers now, absolutely passionate about it.
Speaker 3:And our experience so far at least with and you're right, a little bit slower maturing critter. The way 52 plus is set up, the reward based, you know this whole system lends itself to bringing that out in these dogs. You know, you might, you know the fire breathing dragons of the. You know the British dogs and in the American, you know you think of the, the field trial type dogs. I mean, that is so laser honed into into those types of dogs. You don't have to do a lot to tease it out. You actually you have to find a way to rein it in. I think 100 percent.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's actually been. It's been sometimes frustrating, but it's actually been sometimes frustrating, but it's been fun to watch it evolve and come out. And you have those moments where all of a sudden the light bulb, the aha moment for the dog happens and you're like, yes, yes, and I think that first member weekend that we came down to, weatherby was four months old and you know we were moving right through obedience, he was doing well with that, but the retrieving thing was, yeah, I'll go out and get that.
Speaker 2:He was crushing obedience. He was fantastic on obedience.
Speaker 3:Well, he likes his hot dogs. So you know, he was willing to play that game. But I think, at about the six-month mark, all of a sudden, one day he, like I'm walking and I've got the bumpers in my hands, and he jumps up and tackles me to get a bumper. And I'm like what the heck just happened? Wow, and that day, from that day forward, I mean it. Just, you know, we, finally, we kept pulling that thread and finally it unraveled and he's a fool for it.
Speaker 3:Nix loves it. Well, I take that back. Nix is a little bit different dog, but she likes the training and if we're using real feathers she's all about it. But as gun dogs go, she's a's, the, she's a pleasure, you know she's, she's ready to rock and roll. Um, and the younger pups you know, we've seen the same thing, um, and they've been exposed to a little bit more advanced stuff early on, which is my fault for not separating things. But, um, they, they, early on, got an idea of what the game was all about. Because you know we, just because of time constraints and stuff, we I might bring all four dogs out and stake out. You know, the young dogs, or, or actually, you know Mo Marsh, have them sit and stay and work on obedience that way. But you know, when they start to see the zingers flying and and picking birds up, and you know experiencing that, um, and let's, let's be honest going and picking up a retrieve bumper, um, docking bird is the single greatest reward you can you can give the dog.
Speaker 3:Once they figured out what that was about, um, it really accelerated uh, at least for these guys accelerated their, their desire to want to play the game, and, and everything. Um, and that's. It's exciting to see that. Um, but again now I have to remember a little bit slower maturing, got to make certain that we get these reps in for the younger dogs, you know, and, and and everything. So, um, it's definitely, it's a, it's a fun journey and it's if you've got more than one dog, you really have to put time and effort into the thought process of what's this going to look like today. You know, and, and everything, um and.
Speaker 3:I'm not advocating for more than one, or only one. It's just you really have to, you have to think about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, once you get over two two is pretty easy Then you almost need to do them in pairs of twos. That makes it really easy because then you can train the same thing with that If you get to about the same age. It makes it super easy If you get them all varied at different ages. I mean it's still not hard. I mean some of them just do obedience. Let me ask you this with B, you're the first one to get through Cornerstone. What was one of your greatest victories with him? Hmm, so.
Speaker 3:So we had a pretty smooth sale. I was very fortunate. We took our time. Like I said, we did day by day. We did three or four sessions a day and I'm a huge believer in mini sessions. We get up in the morning and feed the dogs and they get vitamins and I break each vitamin up into four or five pieces and we get four or five clicks for heel'll sit here. You know just those different things. So you know I'm a huge believer in in the mini session. A couple of reps you know multiple times during the day. So we were very fortunate with him. It was just him. I was home full time so I was really able to, you know, take my time with it and everything. Um, I think I'm going to skip. I'm going to skip forward. I made a mess.
Speaker 3:So I'm I am not an advocate of putting your dog in the field early on. You know, um, a 10 month old pup is certainly physically mature enough to hunt, but there's the age and stage concepts that you really have to think about and understand and sometimes the age and stage don't match up. So you take that young dog that's done great in training. Whether he was kind of there, he'd done great in training and then I thought, well, this is great, we're going to, let's go hunting. And I created a monster. So we spent a long, long time working on behavioral stuff, trying to kind of quell that overexcitement that I set up in that regard. So I would say, just right, right, for me at the moment, the the biggest victory was last fall. We ran, ran our first AKC master test and he got a standing ovation and the judge came up and shook my hand and said that's, that's what. Uh, that's what it's supposed to look like. That, you know. Great job, the dog, you know. And I was like what's going? On. You know it was great.
Speaker 3:Um, and we, we had spent 18 months prior to that working on um, being quieter, steady, um, he's, he was all super steady, but I again I blew that one out of the water. Um, but just getting back to, because we do the hunt test thing, it's part of you know what we're, what we're trying to do with, uh, with the, the kind of the show dog slash, hunting, dog breeding program that we've we've started doing Um, you know they, every dog's a little bit different, um, and certainly that head next to me here is is a little bit different. But, um, you know, getting to that point where, uh, you've got a, you've got a steady, rock solid machine in the field or in the hunt test, that was our, that was our goal, was our goal. We had we had to work through some things, um, you know to. To get there but I would say last fall, just right off the top of my head because it's fresher um, I would say was the was the biggest win, um for him that's awesome for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a huge win. I mean that's a big accomplishment too to have, I mean everybody's standing ovation, the judge coming up to shake your hand. I mean that that's a big accomplishment too to have, I mean everybody's standing ovation, the judge coming up to shake your hand.
Speaker 3:I mean that clearly made an impact on them and they were astounded, I would imagine that doesn't happen too often dogs that were running um, or 60 dogs, whatever that, whatever that number is. In that event, and and probably just about all of the events, he was the only, he was the only bench dog in that field. So you know, I think some of it came from the fact that, um, you just you don't see, you just don't see a lot of them, lots of junior hunters and and started dogs that you know are more of the confirmation dogs. Far fewer when you step to the seasoned and senior levels and they're almost non-existent at the finished or the master level.
Speaker 2:So would you say, I mean obviously being in the hunt test world, and then after that, I want to get into Elmwood, because you mentioned your breeding program. I want to. We talked about in the very beginning of this podcast. You're, uh, you kind of are truly all in. We're going to get to that in just a second because I want people to hear about this. Um, but with being in the hunt test world, right, you, you, you do hunting, you do all that. Obviously, we train a little bit different. Our target is we're preparing dogs for hunting, but we're building an amazing foundation that allows them to do anything. Um, how has been your experience going to that hunt test world from the cornerstone lens and all of that.
Speaker 2:I would just love to hear how you feel I think, felt prepared and any of that, any thoughts you have. Hey, I hope you're enjoying the episode so far. I just want to stop and ask a favor of you, real Any thoughts you have to you, or maybe you just have a thought and you'd love to comment. I can't wait to see what you put in the comments and I can't wait for you to subscribe. So now back to the podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think the, I think when you're, I think you know, while it's the same exact thing, they are definitely a little bit divergent. Um, in the field, you know the idea is get the bird, get it picked up, get back in here. You know you never know when the next bird is coming. So you know you want efficiency and you allow for the dog to I don't want to say be an independent contractor, but the dog's got to use his instincts and his natural abilities to dig birds out sometimes you know, and so I think that that's the big difference when you step into the test world.
Speaker 3:it's a little contrived, you know, and it's directed and you have to be able to the dog. They have to listen right. So, you know, in the hunting situation, if I, if I got a bird a hundred yards down out in the marsh, I'm going to, I'm going to try and get him on a line that gets him in that scent cone just downwind of where the bird has fallen and hope that he, um, you know, cuts the, cuts the scent and finds the bird. Um, I think the the difference in the hunt test world is at the is at the senior and the finished master levels.
Speaker 3:The judges don't look kindly on that. They want what's the right term? It's control, right, oh shit. Well, it's control, but it's like in the handling they want you don't run your dog on a line downwind from the bird. That's a stumble on, you know, or whatever. This is very focus-directed casting where you, you know, if you think about, if you have a white line, that well, baseball field, you've got the left field, you know, to third base out to the left field pole, the idea is to keep that dog as tight to that line, to work all the way out to that end point without them varying and stuff. So it's very directed and not what you would do in the field. It's more about the control and relationship and and everything which I think the cornerstone thing, the thing the, the training that we do. I think that that really helps to forge that, um, that partnership.
Speaker 3:So I think that you know, I think there's a lot. It's very interwoven, um, but you're, what you're trying to achieve is a little bit, is a little bit different in ways, and I would say, um, to try, and early on it's almost better to pick an Avenue, um, so if you knew you were getting a dog and and hunt test world is what you're all about. Um, avoiding putting them in the field early on is probably makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and the other side of it is, if you're going to have a hunting dog and you're going to dabble in AKC, ukc sports as a way of extending your hunting season, I would concentrate on the duck dog training and then in the off season, you know, work on the little nuances and stuff that um, that the testing world asks of you, cause it is, um, it is different. You know, it's a little bit.
Speaker 3:I think the dogs, probably from duck blind to test line, um, they're probably like what is going on? What are you doing? I just got to go pick up that bird. Why are you? You know, all the birds fell and I went and picked this bird up and now you're going to stop me and we're going to run on that blind, but that might be a cripple. I got to go get that cripple. You know the little. You can see, the little pop-up dialogue boxes in their heads and uh and everything. But, um, I think it's definitely you can do, you can do both. I mean, it's what we're doing right now. We, we, we train for nine months to destroy all of our training and three months of duck season.
Speaker 3:So you know um, and then we come out of duck season and you've got a couple of months to to refine and hone and and work on stuff to get you know ready for the testing environment. Um, but it is fun. Um, I mean we really, we enjoy it. Um, it's and again I'd look at it it's dual purpose. For us it's a way of extending hunting season and continuing to work on concepts and stuff, especially as the dogs get older. Um, but, but we use it too. It's it part from a business perspective, trying to build pedigree and show that the dog has the ability to achieve and to do certain things.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Well, let's dive in a little bit to your breeding program. You kind of went all in you started with B and then now you decided to open Elmwood Labradors and yeah, let's dive into that. Tell me about that. Let's let the world know kind of what you got going on, because it's pretty unique.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So you know, as I said before, we really gravitate towards the bench spread confirmation dog. We love that. We love the physical attributes and the looks of that style of dog. So when Weatherby came home, we shortly thereafter we had, we had put a deposit in with the same, the same kennel out and out in Colorado because we thought we wanted to get a girl. And actually it was, it was Sarah. That was kind of like we're going to have a couple of labs in the house for the rest of our lives. It's just the reality of what you want and I think what she's decided she wants. So it was.
Speaker 3:I mean, we spent a year trying to find a confirmation-y dog that had a hunting background and there are. I mean there might be one around the corner at Fred's house, you know they're out there but to find a kennel that had really high-quality dogs, had a pedigree that was really outstanding. We had started doing the hunt test stuff with Weatherby so we looked for. You know there's no way to really proof what you're going to get, but you can look at, you know, lineage and all those in the pedigree and kind of see okay, here is this. And so I'm going to shout out to Edna Schneck, um at Hidden Springs Master Labs. She's in Western Colorado. Um, she is a rock star in the in the relatively small world of confirmation hunting labs. Wow, she has.
Speaker 3:Um, she's built a program that has, I mean, generation after generation, multiple dogs that are champions in the show ring and have achieved master hunt status and that when we thought about that, we thought you know what? That's something, that's a, that's a worthy goal. We love this style of dog, we love hunting. We really enjoy the hunting stuff. Why not look to stand on some of these people's shoulders and continue? You know, kind of what they're doing. And so right now, weatherby there are. I don't think there's been any additions. Right now, there have been 87 AKC registered labs in history that have been both an AKC champion and a master hunter.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:And that's how many hundreds of thousands of dogs that have been involved in both those areas. We need three passes, which the tool set is there? Three passes and he'd be number 88. There, you go.
Speaker 3:That was, yeah, that was our goal is a, um, you know, we think he's, we think he's our big, good looking surfer dude, um, you know that he, he loves the game. So, um, you know, we've, we've searched for some other folks that kind of do the same thing, partnered with them, some um, to try and, uh, you know, achieve that again. What we, what we feel is, um, you know, just a really, really good looking dog that's got the ability to go out and do the work all day long. Um, and so I we may have been foolish Our, our kids had just our kids are my, my youngest graduated um from college and, uh, now I've added four labs to replace my kids and tie up all my time and, you know, create the chaos, take over where they left off. So, yeah, so we jumped in, we have, we've done one litter and we're going very slow with it. It's, you know, the idea is not to it's certainly anybody that thinks breeding dogs. If they think that it's a money-making proposition, they are sorely, sorely mistaken. Yeah, so we're looking, we're looking forward to summer, summer breeding, fall breeding, you breeding, so early fall and midwinter puppies.
Speaker 3:We've had very high interest in Weatherby as a stud dog. I think a lot of it because of what CGA has fostered and created in him a dog that can he's in the field. Um, I won't I won't throw numbers out as far as retrieves and stuff, but um, you know he's picked up an awful lot of birds in different settings and has been successful in the in the hunt test world. He's he's an HRC champion and, like I said, three passes and I'll have his, his master title. So, um, you know we're excited about that.
Speaker 3:As a first, you know that was kind of an initial goal. Now it's to really start to refine it and start to bring out, you know, the different aspects of the dogs from a look standpoint, continue the training with them and hopefully, you know, have the opportunity to put puppies in hunting homes, first and foremost um people that are going to participate in in, you know, the AKC and UKC sports and that might be adventure stuff. You know um dock diving and all those different stuff, although Weatherby is a little bit gravity challenged uh from a physical standpoint, um, but you know we're just, we're excited about that.
Speaker 3:Heatherby's a little bit gravity challenged from a physical standpoint, but you know, we're just, we're excited about that. I'm excited to see our first litter. We've got, we've got a couple of dogs doing different things and we're really excited to see, you know, as they grow up and any subsequent letter, what they, you know what they're, what they can achieve and everything it's. It's, it's kind of cool, that's amazing. And then it's it. It's that compelling, repelling thing at the same time. You know it's, it's enjoyable. It's not easy. You know it's frustration and all the different things that go into it. You know clearly, you know part of the. It's just part of what it is, but at the end of the day it's it's, it's been enjoyable. And I think we're, I think what we're bringing together genetically and hopefully you know what we're going to produce, is exciting for some people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're beautiful dogs and so they can find you at Elmwoodlabradorscom. Cool, just making sure that way, if anybody's interested, they should reach out. Chris is trustworthy and also, if you're not a member, he's going to be recommending that you become a member. Clearly, with that, he just is so passionate about it. It's been cool, he just is so passionate about it.
Speaker 3:It's been cool, yeah, and you know, for those that aren't CGA, people that are watching this, even if you don't, you're like, well, I'm not. I don't think I'm ever going to hunt my dog. The AKC sports are a lot. I mean it's hunt testing is actually fun. You don't have to. It's so weird. The AKC stuff. I would say 70% of the people that are participating in the AKC hunt testing events are older women and when and I mean like I, I'm the gray hair, me looks, I'm an OG these are really really, really really OGs. Um, you know, uh, but um, it's. You know there's so many things that you can that you can do and participate in with the dogs. Um, you know, we don't do.
Speaker 3:we don't do barn hunt or rally or all the other stuff, but, um, you know, the CGA the first 18 weeks of CGA builds a dog that can do anything whether it's, you know, whether it's a dog that works for a hunting guide and picks up 2 000 birds a year, um, a dog that you know is a weekend warrior that picks up a couple of ducks for for dad, or the couch potato, um, the. The program provides the, the opportunity for you to shape a dog that I truly, I think, can do anything, wow, wow, and we try and do everything with them, you know they're you know, we we do the AKC sports.
Speaker 3:There are three of the four right now are certified therapy dogs. Um, and that's built around obedience. Um and and, and that's what I think, that's the cornerstone, of cornerstone, right you? Know, the beginning of it is. It is creating the obedience and the bond with the dog so that as you move into more advanced concepts and different things, they have the trust in you. They are so connected with you that you know they just they love to please and they're going to, they're going to get that done. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, chris, this has been an amazing episode to get to celebrate you and clearly you've achieved a lot with your dogs in a short time, which is amazing. Um, it always gets me more excited to see what's going to happen in the next year or two. As you keep adding to your roster, you get add more dogs. You just keep growing it. Um, what would be? You know know, I always like to wrap up and kind of land with you know the. You know, maybe some, some good advice you can share, just if you were sharing to someone who's on the fence or you're sharing to someone that was in your shoes. That's just starting out, um training their dog for the first time. What would be like one or two nuggets of information you can give them? Um outside of obviously recommending the course and of course, that can be something if that's something you're interested in doing but what would be like a nugget, nugget or two of like these are like the two things that are one thing that I've learned that is crucial.
Speaker 3:So I'm going to say it's the the first thing, so let's assume you haven't picked your pup out yet. Matt Papke, who's a great CGA member and a great guy who's trained an amazing dog, luna, had the quote that I love Everybody wants to drive a Ferrari until they have to drive a Ferrari, and I think that I think that that is super true, in that there are sexy dogs out there, there's great breedings and everything what Barton's doing with us. Okay, those are top-notch, wonderful dogs. But I think you have to soul search and understand yourself, your personality and everything before going out and picking out a dog that might be either too hot for you to handle or it might be a dog that's just not going to be, that's a plotter and that maybe is a little bit slow and, of course, there's no guarantees, right. But I think that, um, I think that that's important, um, because if you get frustrated, the dog's going to pick up on that. It's going to, it's going to make your training less enjoyable, right? But I think that I think that the idea that it's a ultra marathon, not a, not a race, is very important.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, I think in over the last couple of years, you know, constantly looking at comments, um, uh, whether they're on the members page, uh, within 52 plus itself, um, at different events, just chatting with people, I think that people get. People look at 52 plus so they instantly they think this is one year, I've got one week to teach each of these concepts. And I think that you know, if you take a couple extra days per week sometimes you don't need to, but if you take, if you even invest one extra day per week in obedience or the concepts you're teaching, you take it slow and you enjoy the process you will be miles ahead. You know, sometimes it goes so well that we're like, all right, let's go, let's go. You know, we kind of get into that frame of mind that we're just okay, we're going to hammer this out, we're going to get this done, we're moving on to the next week.
Speaker 3:And you know, if the idea is 250 positive reps to um, acquire a skill, um, and again, I love we've had you and I, your dad and I have had had this conversation and stuff Um, it's how many times that to acquire the skill in a slightly exciting area, and then how many thousands of reps are required for the dog to sit next to you in the duck marsh with birds raining out of the sky, multiple gunshots, and hold all of that together raining out of the sky, multiple gunshots and hold all of that together.
Speaker 3:And you can, you can, you can hurry up to get to that stage, or you can I think you can take it slow and steady, and slow and steady wins the race. You know, in my opinion, certainly there are those dogs and those handlers that just mash and it rolls right through and we, we, certainly you know we had, we had stretches where we were, we were banging it out, um, but I think that if you, if you, if you take a step back sometimes, um, you take a day off, you take two days, you take a week off, um, I think that that is good for your own mental health, which, again, dog training it's dog training.
Speaker 3:Um, I think that when you, when you take a little bit of time off here and there, I think you can actually you see it in the dog and it's surprising. You have trained, you have, you've worked through week, whatever, and you're trying to get this concept in and it's, you're just going over and over and over it. And now you've done it for two weeks and you're going over and over and over it and you're not seeing any change in things and you say, okay, you know what we're, we're going, we're, we're taking the weekend off, we're taking three or four days off, we're going to do family, whatever, and you come back after a little bit of a break and you take pup out to run it and they ace it and you're like what, who's had my dog the last three days, you know, and I think that it's actually, you know, I don't know if dogs can think about things, um, but I think sometimes you just need to let the pup decompress.
Speaker 3:Um, you need to take, we don't. I think we have the perception that what we're doing is not stressful to them. But I think in reality, any training we do, even if it's stuff that they love, it is. It is raising their stress level. And there's a really interesting in the I can't remember the name of it, but in in the, the, the world of psychology, um, I'm going to do a bell curve for everybody. This is going to look weird. So you have arousal and training and they go up and up and up and both are peaking. So pup is getting more exciting, training is getting better and better and better. And then you reach the top of that bell curve and excitement continues to rise but the training just totally implodes. But the training just, it just totally implodes. And it's because pup has hit an arousal level where they no longer can participate in what you're doing. They can't hear you, they, they don't respond and I and people probably see it where they've been doing stuff and all of a sudden there's a disconnect and you're like what just happened?
Speaker 3:And it's it's because it's because pup has stepped outside of what their ability to keep, ability to keep their together in that moment. And so that's where that day or two and that's physiologically, the dog needs. It takes a day or two for those stress hormones to kick out. During hunting season you're on a trip Day one and day two have gone great, and day three they look like you picked them up at the pound 20 minutes before and they don't have a clue. Well, they've just they've maxed out. You know what they're, what they're capable of in the moment. So I think when you, when you step back and you give them those days off, you are actually going to accelerate again, you know, uh, by stopping and starting, and I, and I truly believe it's good for us too, as as the human trainee, um, but yeah, I would just say, you know, enjoy it. It is a, it is a process that that should be highly enjoyable, um, and.
Speaker 3:I think, when you, when you take your time with it, um the enjoyment, the bond and all those things that you know CGA sets up and creates, it's just um, you know, top notch. Love you guys. We love you too. I wish I would I wish, I wish I would. I wish I would have been there seven years ago when this started. I wish I would have had a dog at that time.
Speaker 3:Um, you know that's awesome uh, to have to have been in there on the ground floor, but I'm I'm so happy that, uh, that sarah, you know, searched you and um, and that we got involved with it, because it's um, you guys are, you guys are awesome, the community's awesome, um, we're just we're loving the ride. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a great journey.
Speaker 2:So well, we're grateful for you too, and uh, it really is an amazing. I'm really thankful for Sarah. I'm thankful she found us and I'm thankful you went along with it and uh, obviously now we've got a great friendship. And uh, also, just it's so cool to see the connections and see how you've done so well with your dogs and you continue to. So, uh, this has been a great episode too.
Speaker 2:Lots of good nuggets in this one. Uh, it's cool to hear from from your background as well. Uh, I think that added a lot of value to people listening and hopefully we maybe shed a little bit of light on some of the science behind some things for everyone. And, more than anything, hopefully we've inspired people that it's possible, right? You know, one of our, one of our core values here at Cornerstone is you've got to believe that it's possible, right, we believe that it's possible, and if you have that mindset and that approach and then you join the family, the community and you become part of the cga family, it it's possible, right, and it's uh, yeah, it's awesome to see, right. So we appreciate you, we're proud of you, we're thankful for you and can't wait to have you on another episode and share more yeah, I'm looking forward to that, josh.
Speaker 3:Anytime, just give me a call and it won't take us two hours to get set up this time.
Speaker 2:No, it was great, it was great. Well, we'll talk soon, chris.
Speaker 1:And I hope everybody's enjoyed this episode. Thanks for listening to the build from here podcast. To learn more about retriever training or our podcast, visit cornerstone gundogacademycom slash podcast.