Build From Here
Build From Here
You Don’t Need a Puppy to Start Over | Tom Sallows
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Tom Sallows grew up hunting in northern Alberta and trained his first retriever at just 12 years old. Years later, he found himself struggling with an older dog that had lost interest in bumpers. In this episode, Tom shares how patience, shorter sessions, positive reinforcement, and learning to train the dog in front of him helped rebuild his dog's love for retrieving—and made Tom a better trainer along the way.
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Learn more about Tom's Big Game Outfit: https://www.mountainmanadventures.com/
Watch a Documentary About Tom's Passion For Guiding:
Welcome And Guest Setup
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Build from Here podcast. On this episode, I'm so excited to be introducing to chorus member Tom Sallow's. Tom is this is going to be great for him because he's had a really incredible experience. Tom's coming in from it from a different perspective than a lot of people. You know, a lot of people get into this get into chorus on early, they get in with a young puppy. But then there's also a fair amount of people that they decided not to do this chorus on to begin with, or they didn't know about chlorestone to begin with, and then they get down the road and they just want more for their dog. And I think uh as we hear Tom's story, he's gonna get to tell you how he was able to find more for his dog. So very excited about that. Tom also has an uh outfiting uh business up in Canada. So we're this is a really cool story to hold because we're gonna get to get a whole other dynamic to you know what's going on in Canada, what's it like up there, how is he handling the dog thing up there? So it's gonna be an incredible episode, and I'm just so honored to be bringing uh Tom on. So without further ado, welcome aboard, Tom. We're so glad you're here and uh excited to share your story. Oh yeah, thanks a lot. It's uh exciting to be here. I'm very excited about
Growing Up Hunting In Alberta
SPEAKER_00it. So um before we kind of get into dog stuff, man, just tell tell us who you are, what you know how who got you into hunting, how did you get into hunting, and uh how did you get down to opening up the uh the pheasant sanctuary and all that? Uh so I'm from Grand Prairie, Alberta.
SPEAKER_01So fairly far north. Uh not a lot of big cities. Grand Prairie's decent size, but we're a ways from Calgary and Edmonton. But around here it was all a lot of popular outdoors, lots of big game hunting, really good bird hunting. And that's just how I started. Typical dad loved it, and I loved it because I wanted to be with dad and our family all hunt season long. We basically went every day and every weekend, and it was just a way of life for us.
SPEAKER_00And that's great. What um big game hunting, all kind of hunting? I mean, yeah, I'm sure y'all have got all all sorts of game up your way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean you start as a you're big game hunting, but as a kid you're shooting grouse. We got lots of them, and then got on a few duck shoots early, and uh my dad was born and raised in southern Alberta where they had some pheasant stuff, so I was always intrigued hearing the stories there, but we're far enough north, the pheasants don't do so well here unless you really provide uh feed and cover for them, etc., with the winters. So that was how that was. But big game was always uh kind of where we focused, it's how we got our food, uh and we were really into it. Uh and then around probably about twelve, uh when I was legal, we started getting back into the bird hunting, and as a kid that's super exciting. So we'd go on our duck hunts and and all that, and I'd hear about dad when he had dogs. And so that's where that kind of spawned.
First Labs And Early Training Wins
SPEAKER_01So I get my first lab when I was around twelve, if I remember right, twelve or thirteen, and trained him up and he did pretty good and uh was just a dog, but he was good in my eyes, followed Water Dog like so many others before me, uh, and uh that was a good program. Uh and then and then my sister needed a dog, so we got a a second one that I trained up as well, and we'd take him hunting and they'd go get him and they'd do all the fun drills. I you know, baseball and all the tea drills and stuff like that. So I thought I had some pretty good dogs that were just great members of the family.
SPEAKER_00Uh that's awesome, man. That uh it's starting at that 12-year-old air range reminds me. Actually, I didn't know this movie existed. There's an old movie. Um, it's called Biscuit Eater. Have you ever have you ever heard of this movie? Uh actually no. Uh you anybody listening to this podcast right now needs to find a time to go watch this movie. But it's basically about a young boy who goes and starts training this dog, and it it pretty much it it shows like a whole journey that we all go on as trainers. But if you when you tell me that, if you you got started with with your dog at a young age and just rung that bell there, but it's uh it's such a good movie. I look forward to hearing what you think about that later. But uh so you got started at 12 um doing the dog stuff, uh and you used water dog to train the dog, and then you sound like you've got another dog. So basically, you're an outdoors family. You grew up in the outdoors, that's your thing, now you're doing the dog stuff. How was it hunting with that dog? Uh do you remember your first hunt with uh the first dog you trained?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I mean the first season for sure. Uh and of course the first retrieve, it was just out in the middle of the water. It was pretty easy when it was a jump shoot on a pond. And I I definitely remember that. It was there's a if I it was pretty cold, but he went out there and got it, and we're just really happy. And so, you know, we didn't have a lot of permission on farmland, so we did a lot of the little creeks and ponds, which is pretty difficult for a dog. Uh, but he went and got the ducks for us and would listen and he would sit there till I sent them and that was good enough for us. They were never real far and uh nothing like super spectacular to the eye, but I mean you're crossing creeks and going in there and in the grass and and stuff, and i it was really good, and but then as I got older, you know, the big games started getting in the way. Uh they overlapped. We'd do a lot of hunting late October when the northerners were coming through and it was cold, but you know, there's always a you can only do so much. So we didn't we didn't bird hunt a ton. We'd get in, you know, six or eight decent shoots a year, yawn field shoot, which was really fun for the dogs, and that's a little bit easier, and you could see the dogs running a little bit more and everything, but that was kind of how it was. I wasn't
When Life Crowds Out Bird Hunting
SPEAKER_01the best shot with a shotgun back then, but we seemed to get it done and we're all the more happier. And for me though, it was always the dogs. I always loved watching the dogs, and I mean when you're that young, uh the dog is everything to you. That's your best friend, and uh and uh people forget that, but they're no matter how good of a working dog you have, they're pet 99.9% of the time. So you gotta be a good member of the family and and you just enjoy every moment of them. It's it's more about that than than having the best dog for hunting in the world to me.
SPEAKER_00No, that's great. I mean, I think I think anybody can resonate with that, uh connect with that because I mean you're right. I mean, there's only so much time you can hunt, and there's a lot of time spent with the family, and you know, especially as you know, if you as you get a family like I have my kids, they help me with the dogs. We were out there this morning with Violet. We're doing a little bit of training and uh they're helping me throw the bumpers and really they're doing a lot of the training now. I'm more of just kind of directing it a little bit and just and they're young, you know, five years old and and almost three, and they're able to train this dog, and it's it's just fun to watch them like learn. It also teaches you on you know your your core area of weaknesses too. When they start yelling at the dog a certain way, you're like, man, they're modeling after me. Maybe I need to change that. It's a good reflection point. It's a good reflection point.
SPEAKER_01You always learn more when you're teaching too, right? Like, and it it makes you better. So but that's kind of yeah, that's that's my story on how I got into the dogs. Uh and then from there, uh we started doing more big game, more big game. So the the bird hunting started to really slow down, and then uh lost those two dogs eventually, and obviously very sad. So I that was hard on me. You know, I by then they were 10, 12 years old, so I'd had them. So you're kind of your early 20s, uh, when you lose them, and and then other things get in the way, whether it's you know, with your friends that's playing a lot of sports, obviously doing the big game thing. Uh and then I decided I was ready for another one. And uh I got one that I it's probably the biggest regret of my life is what happened with him. He uh he was gonna be a dog of a lifetime, that one. And I he lived a good long life with us, but I started him really good and I was using uh Water Dog and all the Walter stuff again, and he was coming along nice, and that that dog was doing things that blew my mind at you know nine, ten, and sixteen weeks old. Uh he was just one of those ones that learned quick and he loved retrieving so much. It was actually a pleasure to train him, and he was training me along the way. Got him going, uh trained him for about a year really hard and had him doing everything. And uh then I started to grow in the big game outfitting business, and I didn't have time to go hunting anymore for with the dogs. So fortunately he never really got to hunt other than a few grouts when we were out. Um but he was an amazing dog. We still did the drills and had fun and he was just a great member of the family. I just life got in the way, I got too busy growing growing the business, and I didn't uh didn't hunt birds for a long lot of years and didn't train any more dogs
Monty And The Grouse Mistake
SPEAKER_01until uh you know he passed and then waited a few years and uh got married and me and my wife uh decided we wanted another dog and that's how we kinda got into into where we got Monty and brought him along and joined Cornerstone and then uh got that pheasant stuff all started up, just dove in, bought a bunch of pheasants, built some big flight pens, and decided, well, if I'm gonna do this, then in case somebody ever wants to go, I'm gonna need a second dog. So I grabbed uh picked up a dog that was actually started, uh, just because I wanted uh uh uh uh also a high high drive dog, smaller female. I'd never had a female in my life, and uh so now we got Monty and Shelby and they're both doing great. We love them.
SPEAKER_00And wow, we're having a lot of fun. Man, that's so cool. Now with with Monty and Shelby, did you where did Cornerstone come in at that point? Because I am curious to know that because you have been obviously training your dogs in the past with the water dog, and everybody knows that. That's like the the original, the OG, one of the OG resources for uh for dog training. What made you did what made you decide to jump into Cornerstone? Was were you looking for something different? Let's talk through that, figure figure that out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that that was based uh two things. First around Monty and and also around my wife. She'd never trained dogs before. Um so I was kind of trying to teach her, like Monty's her boy, that's they're each other's world. So I really wanted her to get into that part because the bond just gets better as you work them. And and she loves, she's a Tammy, she's a hunting fool. And and uh so I really wanted her to start building her basis with that, knowing I was, you know, I had this other one coming. Uh and so we we were having a little trouble. I screwed up with Monty pretty good. I had him coming along real good, and it was astonishing. I thought, you know, everyone told me you're crazy to grab an English lab and and try to train him for bird hunting. He had a great drive. He was doing double marks, you know, at we got him a little later than we wanted. Like I usually like get my pups around seven weeks, uh, you know, to eight weeks old, but he was he was about twenty or twenty-two when we got him. Uh I found him. Good-looking dog. He needed a home, just timing seemed right. So we we we got him home and I started working him. Within a week, I had him retrieving and and fun bumpers and everything, and probably within a month I had him doing you know, marks out of the retrieve our trainer, however far that shoots, 100 yards and double marks. And he was doing it with enthusiasm. I thought, holy, I got another beauty here. And uh then I made the mistake uh that I probably regret to this day. We went out hunting and I decided, well, he's getting marks that I shot a grouse and sent him after that. Well, that did something that you think is good, but the drive went through the roof, he ran up to that thing, of course it was flopping, he picked it up, and this is so much fun. Uh, I don't really want bumpers anymore. So so you can imagine trying to train a dog and you know you you're going you're starting a little bit of baseball or mini tea, whatever you want to call it, and and he doesn't want to get the bumpers. Uh but every grouse you can't you he's out of con control in a sense, right? Like he'll still sit, but he wants to go, he's just about jumping through the truck windshield if he sees one on the road and you know, uh it was a lot, and I'm like, ah I've never seen this before. So he's a really soft, sensitive dog. He's a thinker. I don't like to overwhelm him too much. I don't like uh like pressure he you know, and I'm not talking e-collar pressure, like there's so many things of pressure, environment, mental, you know, the handler pressure, whatever. So I really wanted something a little bit um I don't want to say gentler because I'd never really used e-collars growing up. Uh but just that more patient approach uh to try to get try to get them back, you know, to I I needed to get that bumper drive back um just so I could do the drill to teach him properly, right? Like he had no bum running and getting chickens and birds, but I mean I I the last thing I yeah, I d I don't like dogs out of control. I want them sitting there and stuff. So I I was walking a fine line and so I reached out to a few people and then I started
Why Cornerstone Fit Their Situation
SPEAKER_01seeing your guys' ads and and stuff like that and I and given that he's an English lab, but you know, it's the show side, but it's still the British stuff that you guys push a little bit more. Just seemed to hit nice. Talked to a few of you guys, uh I think it was Sarah I was talking to a little bit when I reached out, and it just seemed like a good fit. I like the structure. My wife is very much a structure person, so I like the videos step by step for her, and I figured maybe he's always trying to show off for her. So I figured if she could maybe work him step by step through, even though he had a good basis, um, maybe we'd kind of rifle through it a little quicker, but it would teach her and him uh at the same time and maybe bring that drive back a bit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a tough spot to be. When they get a taste of those burns, if you do it a little too early, uh that can happen and it becomes a challenge. So that was your problem.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's he's so smart and it's it's made me a better trainer, there's no doubt. That's good. But and it's been fun the whole time and and some some days he absolutely astonishes me how fast he figures things out and how he's how he he's just uh he loves he loves problem solving. Like I'll I'll put a mark, I'll throw him a mark and he'll be he's pretty excited now, even if it's just a boring old bumper. But he uh he enjoys the blinds better. Cold blinds, he is pretty darn good. Um you know, he goes out there, he he's slower paced, so and he really uses his nose. He's uh and that's where his upland thing is his jam. He loves quartering a field and going into the cover. Once we got that game, I mean it's real birds, right? And so that's his that's his thing for sure. Um and he is just uh he's a character, he's he's our boy, and he's never gonna be that fast, flashy dog, but uh, you know, he lopes out there pretty nice using that nose and he doesn't really miss birds.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Yeah, I love having a dog like that that's got those those good skill set. So I think a lot, you know, maybe people are asking the question or wondering too. So like with you coming in with it, how old was Monty when you jump joined Cornerstone?
SPEAKER_01Uh he was probably well, he's three now, so yeah, he's two. It was it would have been last spring kind of thing when we signed up, if I remember right. So he's yeah, it's so a little over a year with it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So you came in with training with him and all that. How did what was your approach there? Were you thinking that you would pick up where he was at, or did you go back uh in training and start over? What what did you kind of do and then how did that go for you?
SPEAKER_01Uh so again, this is all unique compared to most, but he uh I started worry about where he was, which was that like I needed to like I said, to him, I did I wanted to I needed to the the dreaded word for lots of people, force fetch, but I mean I'm a believer that force fetch is kind of
Patience, Short Sessions, Less Is More
SPEAKER_01the same as it's just how you do it. There's you gotta do old conditioning, force fetch. To me it's all one, right? Like you gotta so I had to be really patient with him. So that's where I started, and I started that, I guess it would have been last May. I was out guiding black bears and I had him out at our lodge, and every day he would get he'd get cold conditioning, force fetch, whatever you want to call it, all in one, and he wouldn't even pick up bumpers that time. I was having to use tennis balls, footballs, frisbees, just to get a mark or two out of them. Because I wanted to, you know, enroll it on the ground and just get that chase. Get him exotic. And just one or two. I had to go like I'm a doer and it was really hard for me to learn on him that less is more. And same same with the hole conditioning or and and all that stuff, like a couple minutes. I just f I found a few minutes uh or sorry, three or four times a day for like a couple minutes worked way better with him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's the secret sauce. You don't want to do too much of it, you know, just especially with dog like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and just certain things that way. So that's where I started, but my plan was that Tammy would take him and go step by step through the whole way to teach each other. And I thought that would let's just try this, you know, like let's see how this goes and and there's great videos like uh the the the setup for the videos you guys do and everything is awesome. So she started that and was doing pretty good with it, right? From the just like he was a puppy. And you know, our weeks would probably go a little bit quicker than than the typical puppy, because he he had all that, right? Like he was his recall was unbelievable. She she actually taught him that off the Walter's book, and it was the best recall on a puppy I've ever seen. It's just he loved her so much, right? And uh so we're very fortunate there. I was I've always been really good at teaching dogs how to sit and and stay. So that was he had all that basis, but it was then he healed pretty good and all that stuff. So he it uh we went through that pretty quick and she did about two or three weeks of that, and then she got super busy at work and uh and then hunting season came where we're obviously super busy and she kind of I don't want to say fell off the way and she still works with him, but didn't kind of follow, you know, got a few weeks in or whatever, and then and then we're hunting again and he was hunting great, and so we kind of skipped ahead again and she's really getting back into it again now though, and um and he's become quite a dog. But yeah, the b the biggest thing for him was the patience and then me being able to reach out through the community and and just really learn that dog. Um and what made him kick was the was the thing. So um that was that was the best part about the videos. I had I watched them all, I I binge watched them. Yeah, you know, I'd be out guiding a goat hunt and I had them downloaded on my phone and and whatever. We had the start mini Starlink out there, and I'd be watching them in my tent and I'd be like, Okay, that's a good idea. I watched, you know, and oh this is a way to hit it with him without any callers or any pressure, and here's a good idea, because the drills are the drills. I mean, yeah, there there might be modifications, but the drills are the same as Walters did back then, or all these guys, there's just they've just been modified a little bit and and probably probably better. Like there's there's information out there everywhere, and I was always a sponge for retriever stuff. It was always my passion, and it was something I took years off of. But you know, when big game hunting I love, but now that's my my career, so this is for me. This is more for me.
SPEAKER_00So I'm gonna keep it that way. Oh, that's good. What um obviously the the clicker thing
Markers, Clickers, And Confidence At Distance
SPEAKER_00might have been did you guys ever integrate the clicker since y'all started later, or how did that the treat, the clicker treat stuff, what did that what did y'all think when you saw that in the video and did that um uh change anything for how you were approaching?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I loved it. Uh I we did have tried the clicker when I first got him, uh, and it was working pretty good. So he knows the clicker, but I transitioned it away from the clicker to a voice because I was always scared I'd forget it, or sometimes I go out to train and I'd forget the darn thing. It just going back to my old habits and and stuff like that. So I still mark. But with uh with me it's a good, you know, and then yeah and I like that because with him and the and he's the one who taught me that, I needed to be able to do that because he is such a thinker that you know like when I was forcing him to a pile again, horse but running to a pile he was he would get going and then he would kind of slow down and and I so I'd have to give him another back and then when he'd take it good and that would give him the confidence with his low drive that he would actually eat up. And so now I can mark out there at 300 yards if I want. If he's out there and he's if he's if I see that hesitation, I can just give a good or a or another back and he'll oh yeah, keep going, like I'm doing good. You know, he's pretty sensitive, soft dog.
SPEAKER_00That makes sense. That makes sense. I want to add this to for some that are listening to this that may be getting into it. So when uh when Tom is mentioning mark, that means essentially with a clicker you're marking the behavior or you're taking at that point in time, that's the exact moment that you did good. And you're just that's an indicator that you did the right thing, and they can expect the reward to follow. what marking uh is considered. I thought some might want to know that. Um so kind of using all that, what how did uh did your approach change to training at all, getting into cornerstone? What what did that look like? So obviously you and your wife were doing it together. You had your, you know, what the way we say it, like our goal is to teach you how to think like a trainer and give you the information and develop you and develop the dog. Obviously that doesn't we don't think anyone should ever throw out their past experience if you have previous experience. Obviously get rid of the bad, keep the good, and add it to what you've done. So what did that look like for you as kind of blending your previous experience with using Cornerstone?
Treats, Pressure, And Training Philosophy
SPEAKER_01Uh it was it was it was great. It was it integrated really nice. I mean I guess say that if you simplify dog training in my eyes, it's a lot of the same stuff. Yes, there's guys out there that use a lot of pressure in my opinion too much or some people that don't but there's always pressure and release. I do some we have horses for example and and actually that taught me a lot about dog training working those horses for the last bunch of years. There's always a pressure and a release. Now how you add that pressure is up to you. So the dogs have to figure out how to get that release in a way or the horse or or whatever and then they get paid. And you know like what I liked about you guys is I've never used food before. And then when I seen CGA with the hot dogs, well we'll save like the livers out of our big game and we'll make liver treats and they go crazy for him. And with Monty the the unique situation about him having a lower drive for bumpers is I wanted to bring that back up so I decided I was going to try treats or hot dogs, whatever. Right? Like and and I'd never done that before so when I seen that on that that was another attraction to me just 'cause I had never I was always taught not to use treats because you might you know like they used say you might put a dog bone in your gun by accident and you wanted the dog to do it 'cause he had to. It with Monty I really wanted to get that back to do it because you want you you love it and do do it for me. Not 'cause not just 'cause you have to. At some point they have to they have to do it. It's still a command, but um yeah I just really wanted that patient approach and and I didn't want to be like I've reached out to other trainers in the past and stuff but that's pretty intimidating for someone like me that's just trained a few dogs and I'm doing it with my best bud. But these aren't these aren't you know like these no matter what, if the dog never retrieves he's still gonna be my best friend. He's still gonna be my pet. But uh I'm still gonna be love him and be half proud of him and all that stuff. But um you know whereas cornerstone community and the lower pressure stance just seemed like a really good fit in particular for him and for uh for my wife uh moving forward with him.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. I'm and I'm glad that you ended up finding it because it seemed like that was exactly the perfect fit for what you guys needed, especially the the challenges that you're facing. And you know a yeah a lot right now if you just look on the internet they'd have you believe that the only way to do it is is force. But like you said, I think you said uh something really key there is that your dog was learning to please you and to seek out reward from you. And that's kind of part of our philosophy at Cornerstone. This isn't there's two ways to do it. There's get to and then there's has to. You can make a dog do something or you can be a really good trainer and become a really good trainer and get your dog to do something because it wants to do it. That is a f always a better option than forcing them to do something. Because if you force them to do something, if you stop adding that pressure over time you're gonna have to keep going back to the pressure. Versus if the dog wants to do the thing that you're asking it to do then that's a self-reinforcing cycle because it's seeking the reward and you'll never have to reinforce it again because it's going to be getting that reward. One aspect of that is please the handler, right? You get treats. And I agree with you on that the treat stuff actually before we use treats and in cornerstone we've always filmed using treats but back in the day when I was training dogs before we ever did cornerstone I wasn't using treats to begin with because I was kind of in the same camp as as you there and everybody and I that was really just my ignorance. I just did not know at the time I thought man I don't want to be stuck using treats and a clicker and the duck blind. Yeah who wants to that's embarrassing first of all like who wants to be doing that and that was just my ignorance speaking. I didn't realize that it's a process from it starts with developing that association and that reward system with you and the dog. So now the dog knows its job is to please me and I'll give it a reward. And then it goes from treats to now the retrieve becomes the reward. You're no longer working for a treat you're working to retrieve and to please me. But the key tie that ties it all together is they they come to please you. They work to please you. And now you've got this deeper bond than if in the old way of training or in the pressure way of training which is hey you're gonna do this. If you don't do this you're gonna feel a bunch of pressure until you do it. Compulsion training I love the philosophy of getting a dog to work with me instead of working for me or a team. We want to work together and uh especially like the dog that you're working especially when you ran into that situation you could have forced this whole deal you could have forced fetched the dog which is where you're using negative reinforcement to train the dog and made it pick up a bumper. But we all know how that would have gone. Your dog's ears would have been back, its tail would have been between its legs and it would have reluctantly complied because if it doesn't it just experiences more pressure. Instead it sounds like you were able to help Old Monty develop a new love for the retrieve and realize hey this is fun and it's all about pleasing the handler. So instead of having a dog that works because it has to now you've got a dog that works because it gets to and I love that part of your story man. I mean that it's a shame really out there on how many dogs work because they have to not because they get to and there's something beautiful about working because you want to do it versus have to like you said really the dog training too is for you. This is your outlet versus like obviously we have our day job there's things we have to do right we're going to do them because it and you do them rain or shine no matter what but there's also that whole passion and I love the the I love your story as a whole that you're talking about right now because this probably gets back to your original first dog you were training at 12. I can imagine a 12 year old out there training using that book it was all passion. You every day you went it must have been everything was new everything was exciting and it was passion and it seems like Horner brings you back to that original passion which is hey we're going to build that strong bond we're gonna have a great connection with that dog and we're gonna help it win and uh you know I I just say all that because I know that some that may listen to this may be wondering about the treats but it it's like you like you said there it's not something that you have to use all the time. It's something that you can transition to use a little bit when it makes sense and then you transition to the retrieve and um seems like you guys got a good thing going.
Denials, Competition, And Adding A Second Dog
SPEAKER_00So how how did Mont so Monty kind of transformed from not doing the bumpers because he loved grouse to finding that hey this is still fun and so he's probably a good all-around dog I would say now. He's a he's a great dog.
SPEAKER_01He is what he is he's don't he's never gonna be like we're s we're in a running hunt tech now and uh we got two total polar opposite dogs when it comes to that. Like Shelby she in my opinion I got her started remember so the guy did a great job with her. I just I seen the ad and she just intrigued me so much and it was everything I'd never tried before in a dog and I wanted and we wanted to because that was another trick I wanted to use with Monkey is bring that competitive in so when there's another dog and then I also wanted to make sure I could teach honoring really good. Because my dogs I don't want them breaking right and uh and then so people forget that teaching a a dog that loves it so to your point if you can make 'em love it it's so easy compared to a dog that decides they don't you can teach 'em but if they love it and that retrieve is the reward, it is the easiest thing. Once they get that you can teach everything off a love of retrieve. Uh like for example, I just said breaking my dogs that's pretty darn important to me. And that is the easiest thing to teach even in the highest drive dog in my opinion. A lot of people disagree with me that have them but if that dog moves he doesn't get that retrieve and he wants that more than anything in the world once he taps into that instinct. So if you have two dogs sitting there now now Monty's into it because we're patient and now we have another dog to that inner competition and and there's they're both sitting there and you chuck just a short mark and get them all excited and the one that moves your wind the other dog. That is like in my eyes that's the ultimate denial. 100% and I mean denials are I'm learning that pretty quick. I never had that when I was younger. You know like they are something I didn't even know they existed when I was younger and I mean I t see that's a big thing in the CGA videos. Whether you walk out there and get it yourself but i I think it's another another level if you have another dog there. A whole nother level Yeah and I had to really get back to that. My dog still didn't break but the first time we ever went to a hunt test and they'd never seen that 'cause you know unlike where you guys are from, we don't have anyone to train with here. I'm trying to start some groups up here um but we're quite a ways away from people. We have unlimited ground, unlimited opportunity that way. So that was another reason for getting a second dog. I d I needed that for me too because Monty was less is more like we talked about earlier so but I I was finding I was doing too much because I wanted to keep training because I love doing it so much. And I was kind of at times hurt when I realized oh like some days I get two, three retrieves out of him and I okay it's you're done. Like he's happy get him back in there whereas when he was a bit younger I probably tried to you know and here's pressure again like in a different way but I was trying to teach him through just sheer volume. And he was liking it less and less so I mean I can talk with this for for hours. But um yeah that that's that denial stuff is I think is a huge key and and that's another thing with CGA that I forgot to mention that we really like is you know it's a long ways for us but someday we'd love to get it to one of them training weekends or something because that that's just great. And then the community itself of just uh the on the on the app uh and the and the Facebook stuff you can post a video and people are always positive and then but they'll they'll bounce ideas off you have you tried that or somebody'll a ask a question. You could throw your hat in the ring and nobody's everybody's pretty modest from what I've seen. And nobody's saying oh it's this is w how you do it but this is maybe this is what works for me and when you combine that many people 'cause every dog's different there's a lot of power there with with ideas and something'll stick. You know, something similar will give you an idea that'll stick and sometimes that's all it takes. You can fight with the dog for months and then all of a sudden one little new thing and wow you unlocked it. Somehow that light bulb goes off and like a big one from Monty was the the big goose bumper. I was sudden we're out there and I grabbed one of 'em and just bought one because I seen it in the store and and it was just laying there and he ran over there like what's this and he started picking it up and his after that his so I threw it a few times and he had to figure out how to hold it. I'm telling you his hold got way better after that. Wow. Like it was just crazy, you know so I I I don't think that there's a I don't think you need a puppy to train. I don't think it's too old to there's no such thing what is what's the saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I totally don't buy that. I I've taught plenty of old dogs new things. You can keep teaching them if you have that that passion to please you or whatever they get paid with to treat.
Community Feedback And Small Breakthrough Tools
SPEAKER_01And and just to be clear like I do have e-callers for my dog um I don't really use the the the e part too often but I use the the the tone uh as part of my recall and they are conditioned just in case I ever have to um because I mean we could be walking here and a moose might be out there with a calf and if that dog takes off after that moose I'm not repairing. Y'all got all kinds of dangerous things up there for a dog. Yeah there is deer moose vehicles if there's a road or something like I'm not it's on there. It doesn't mean you have to use it or or if you do it can be a tool like just make sure they're conditioned but if my dog takes off after a moose like Shelby did there earlier she's so fast that you know at least I could I I I stopped her. I probably save that dog's life. So I I I don't want to be the one that says e-collars are bad or anything but if they're used wrong you can ruin a dog and and uh you know I throw them on just for more for safety purposes uh but but yeah like they are they are what they are you don't need them to train a dog that's for darn sure yeah yeah that just comes down to philosophy and approach too and they're definitely not bad.
SPEAKER_00It really comes down to what philosophy do you want to have what approach are you going to have to dog training what's your method going to be is it going to be the force route and if so e-callers work really well in that because it's a great tool for negative reinforcement. Is your approach going to be the cornerstone approach which is not not uh this is gets to, not has to. And you know e-callers have their place even within within our methodology and philosophy. It's just how much are you going to use it? And you know one you're gonna use it way more right because you're compulsion training forcing the dog to go. The other one's gonna be more I would say you could use it like salt in a in a in a in something you're baking. You're not gonna use a whole lot of that. Just the right amount just the right. Too much and it's not good too little and it's not good either. So you use it just the right amount.
SPEAKER_01And and that's the thing like I listen to lots of podcasts and stuff on on dog training and especially lately we've been getting into the hunt test stuff a little bit and trying to dabble in there see what that world's like for and we do it more for training uh possibilities. You know we can't mimic that stuff uh at home with no one to train with right so that's really important for us now and we're enjoying doing it together me and wife and the dog but what I liked about CGA most is there's not a lot of I I don't know if there's any pro trainers in in CGA but it most of the people it's like this is my this is my kid basically that I my hunting buddy that I'm training. So every podcast just for it every one that believes in e-callers which is totally fine they do it for the efficiency and quick because they're like a pro trainer but if you ask their honest opinion everyone will say if you can train a dog without it it'll make you a better trainer and you'll probably have a better product in the long run. Is it going to take you longer? Yeah but if it's if it's your your hunting buddy your pet, who cares? You got that dog for ten to fifteen years. Like that's right take your time. Just just enjoy the the the funnest part about all this is is training and seeing them learn and and you learning as you go and and working as a team. So you you don't have to have your dog hunting in nine months. Is there dogs that have? Of course there is that's too early I would say but there is dog every dog's different and every you don't need to do that but whereas if you're a pro
E-Collars As Safety, Not A Shortcut
SPEAKER_01trainer I see the appeal or you're running lots of hunt tests and you're you're doing that you need to pump those dogs out quicker. So you need the efficiency of the e-caller. And those guys are professionals. They know how to use them and uh are very like precise with them with their timing, the pressure, reading the dog if it's too much or not, they can dial that in whereas if you're just a person picking up a dog for the first time or like me even the fourth or fifth time in your life you're still you're not as good as those guys so with that stuff. So why not just dedicate yourself to that dog's life and just keep getting slowly better and building it over time.
SPEAKER_00I think that's a I'm glad you brought that up that's a really good point. There's a I don't know I just feel like there's a general message out there that makes people feel less than if they're not training a certain way, like the way the pros are doing it. But you brought up a really good point and you've got to ask yourself the question if I'm not a pro and this is my only dog or I've got a few dogs or I'm you know I'm just not training like they're doing, should I be training the same way that they're training? I would I would argue the answer is no. You said there's a good point. They're trying to spit more dogs out faster. The other question is what are what are the what's the other side of that coin? Well the reason they're putting dogs out faster like i let's say you're paying a trainer twelve hundred bucks a month or a thousand bucks a month of course you want as much as you can get done in as little amount of time as possible because at a certain point you're gonna cut that off I mean unless you just get an unlimited budget and you don't mind paying you know twenty thirty forty thousand dollars for your dog to be trained at a certain point you're gonna it's gonna be four months, five months, six months, you're gonna have invested $8,000 in this dog and you want as much as you can get for that. But that isn't always better, right? That sometimes that other approach which is like you said you're committing to the dog there's a lot to be said for that approach. But also as a DIYer if someone's DIYing it you have to decide what's your armor going to be and if you the thing is if you're a pro trainer you got 20 dogs you're working probably give or take maybe more if something goes wrong you put that dog up immediately you get the next dog out. And that dog forgets about it by the time you get back to them or you know you have to work through it and you figure that out. But if you're a solo trainer training just a couple of dogs something goes wrong you don't really have that luxury of just saying all right I'm putting the dog up now I'm training another dog that could be it for you for the day you could be totally done. So it really asks the question for someone sitting here listening to this is if I'm training my dog myself, what should my approach be? What fits my dog the best what fits the lifestyle the best and and I would say kind of along the lines of what you're saying it's probably better to commit to the long haul with that dog and to take your time and work through the process. There's also something to be said for like you said not using the the collar there's nothing wrong with using the collar but if you don't start there and you bring it in later if you start that with a collar and don't bring it in later and that's what you're doing from the beginning, odds are you're gonna actually miss some of the greatest moments of training that you could ever miss. That doesn't mean that they won't be frustrating but there's some moments there to where breakthrough can happen and where you and your dog connect on a level that you've never connected before because you took the time to work through that problem the right way instead of just putting that call and saying I'm just gonna push through this and we'll move on. And granted you could do that. But there's something about that connection the bond you build with the dog in the in between there
Hunt Tests, Rules, And Learning The Game
SPEAKER_00when you overcome that challenge together there's there's just something there and it's strong and it's worth doing. And then once you've done that you can always bring it in later just to keep things tuned up and like we said the salt. But I love what you brought up there because those are those are really that's a really good perspective um on it that I don't think a lot of people have shared I I don't think I've heard many people share what you just shared um on podcast or on any podcast for that matter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah like and I have a good example like we literally I just got back the other well I guess it was last or two days ago at midnight because I was over in stock and running some punt tests and like Shelby's incredible and uh she was again started I wanted a dog to learn from as well and and uh and commit to she's only two years old and I'm running her master test. Now I don't have a clue about punt tests. I we have entered two this year, two different weekends. We entered on the deadline one day because I feel like I owe it to that dog. The potential in her is unbelievable. And uh so we entered and we went down we had a good time and I realized the the thing training but I just entered in everything. We entered Monty and Shelby and junior but the weekend was kind of and I entered Shelby and senior and master as well. And um because I had no no clue the level I knew what this dog could do here in front of me but I I don't know the rules for Hunt tests. I didn't know anything and I wanted to learn as fast as I could and I I didn't expect to pass or whatever. Both dogs got their junior really easily and the junior test up here pretty that day in particular the weather was horrible and it was actually pretty challenging and they it's a little bit set up a little different than this the ones in the States and that's all I had was YouTube videos to kind of watch a couple weeks leading up but pretty proud of those dogs surpassed and those no problem and uh I the senior test I screwed up Shelby had a good first ru series and then I had her on the land blind and I didn't understand they wanted the rules that you had to handle them right to the post where or the marker. And uh I always train my dogs line out there and then when you get in the area I just yell find it and then they start hunting. So I watched on the marking series the dogs go out there and they lots of them would hunt over to the throwing blind, they'd hunt for five, six minutes out there on a mark and they'd they pass Wow. So I thought, Oh, I just gotta get her close. She took a beautiful line. She shoulder checked the the post on the way by, but she's so fast she blew past it. I stopped her, she turned around and looked at me. I tweeted her in and uh yelled, find it when she got about back to about five or six yards from it, so she established a hunt. Well, that's an automatic fail, apparently. She picked it up right away. She did like one loop, picked it up and came back and was like, Oh good girl, we're through this one. That was a fail, but they seen a lot of potential in the dog, and they let me run her as a test dog the rest of the time, which is really good of them. Uh that's really nice. Yeah. Yeah, they're they were great, amazing, and I met a lot of people through this, and she did really good on the as a test dog. So I knew she was above senior as well. Um I wasn't, but uh she was, and I'm not like when I go to a hunt test, I'm different. I don't do it for the ribbon. I didn't really care that she didn't get a ribbon, like it's nice to post a picture and you're proud of it. We got the junior ones hanging up on her fireplace. Uh, and then I realized, you know, you gotta get so many passes to keep becomes certified. We didn't bother, we just put Mocky in senior now because that's the level he's going towards. And Shelby's probably she's running master now. We did this past weekend. Um she's never pa actually passed a senior test, but she's running master. She's doing pretty good. She didn't get her ribbon this time, but again, I made some mistakes that and she got a little loose. I I went down there and trained with some guys with her before and overwhelmed her a little bit, um, pressured her that way, and and she got a little loose by the end of the weekend and had an amazing run going, and then she got in the blind, but she got out of sight of me behind a hill a couple times, and that's in in our tests I guess that's an automatic fail. It surprised me. Um I I still don't have a bearing on the rules. I there's some dogs I wouldn't have passed that passed, and some dogs that passed that I wouldn't have passed just looking from the hunting side of things. Um, but that's just I just have to learn the game if I decide I want to keep doing it. And um that's lots of fun there, but I now I kind of lost my train of thought there for a minute.
SPEAKER_00But uh Well that's all and I'm I'm glad you brought that up because yeah, you said you gotta learn the game. Yeah. Um and that is true. There's definitely uh the rules, learning the rules and all that, and I've I've seen some I'm not big into it, but I've seen a little bit, and um and there's definitely dogs. I'm like, no, that dog doesn't deserve that. But the rules are the rules. So that's not a dog I want to hang around. Yeah, it's a sport, it's different, which is funny that it's called a hunt test. It should just be called a you know, a dog test, working test, but it is it is what it is. There's a difference between a hunting dog and a and a uh in the testing. Yeah, it's a hundred percent fun, though.
SPEAKER_01But it and it's not bad for your dog though. Don't don't don't get me wrong, it's not like it's they set up great situations. Now, like you're lying out to a hundred, hundred and fifty yards on some of these lines and the marks and stuff, but and that's how when's the last time you shot a duck at a hundred yards, right? Like you don't but but and if it does, you see them glide down, right? And the dogs can see it good. But but you are challenging yourself, you're challenging your dog, and it is a lot of fun. You're gonna learn a lot. Your dog, you're gonna learn the hole that you can fix, and you're gonna meet most importantly, you're gonna meet a lot of other people that are like-minded that you can bounce ideas off of and maybe start
Advice For New Handlers And Closing
SPEAKER_01groups. And it it's it's something to do. Maybe when you're older, you travel around with your dogs. Like, how fun is that? And you can go to these and get a little social group going and and and stuff. So that's kind of where we are if we keep doing it. That we're not gonna go super heavy into it, but maybe when we're older, it'll give us something to do if we're retired or whatever.
SPEAKER_00But but I mean I mean you get to enjoy it along the way. I mean, and that's awesome that y'all you know, you've got your hunting dogs, and now you can go do this as well for fun. And it sounds like you guys have had really an incredible experience. And we're so glad that you did decide to join Cornerstone, especially starting with with an older dog. And and it seems like it's just gone so good for you that that uh that fires me up. Um I'm and I'm glad to hear that Sarah was helpful for you as you were kind of getting into it as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's been a it's been lots of fun, and we'll still continue to post videos. You like doing that and hearing what people say and and and uh bouncing ideas off people and seeing everyone else's videos and maybe maybe I could throw something in there. I've never like you said, I'm never doing it out of uh, oh, I'm a great trainer or anything. It's just like this might have worked, this might work. You know, it worked for me years ago or on this dog or but I seen that or I talked to someone that said this, and I don't know, that's that that community is pretty important uh about balancing that and and everybody in that loves their dog. And that's their dog. That's what I like the best about it. They're they're a similar situation to us. They they want to work with that dog no matter what, and in the end, whether it's a hunt test or a hunt or just you like training, it should be just about getting slowly better and making the best life for that you and that dog that you can.
SPEAKER_00100%. Well, Thomas, I'm uh I'm excited uh Tom, I'm excited to have had you on this podcast and to get to share your story. Is there any kind of um closing thoughts you would you would share with someone that maybe was in your shoes when they were thinking about getting started? Um maybe one or two pieces of advice that you would just like, hey, these this is what I've learned. Here's a couple of things that I could hand to you that are that are nuggets that'll help people along the way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh first up, first one, uh if you're thinking about doing it, getting a a dog, especially any kind of dog, but especially a lab, I'm I'm fond of them. Just do it. They're great for your family. This train is fun. Don't get intimidated by it. Just treat them as a pet first and see where you can go with it. Find a program like this, or there's lots of other good ones out there too, but this is a really, really good one, and just follow it and kind of take your time and and never never get too far ahead of yourself like I have in the past. I I tend to do that a little bit and just just bounce the information off of people and you don't have to take anything, but there's tidbits you can get from all sorts of people that might work, and it's a lot of fun. It it's well worth getting a dog.
SPEAKER_00Man, that's good. I appreciate you sharing that, and absolutely I agree. Jump in, the water's great. You're gonna love it. Uh, you know, once you do it, you'll probably be hooked, as many are. Uh, I know a lot of cornerstone members end up getting more than one dog down the road. They just love it so much that they're like, man, I've just got to do it again. But also just the moment you have with your family, like it's an activity too. Like with me, with my girls. Like we go out and we train the dog. It's a short session, nothing big, but it's moments where like they're having fun, and it's just such a unique thing that can that can be done. Well, Tom, I appreciate you for uh for hopping on the podcast. I'll be sure to also link up um your outfitting business and all that in the description as well. If anybody ever wants to get up there, uh maybe I will one of these days. I need to make it up to uh to Alberta. I'm sure it's beautiful up there. And uh I know my I think my my father-in-law has done some hunting. I don't know if it's been up there, but he's gone on a lot of big game hunting up that way. And uh so I would love to see that one day. But for anybody that's listening, maybe they could connect up with you guys, and it sounds like you would be the the people to know to get on some big game hunting up there. So but thank you so much for your time and for hopping on. Yeah, no problem.
SPEAKER_01One last thing, uh, if there's anyone up in Alberta or even, you know, like Montana's not that far from us or something where there's training groups or something we we got time, especially in the winter, we will be willing to travel down for uh in in the winter months to a warmer climate potentially. Uh but anyone up this way that wants to train or or anything and maybe hook up in the future, don't be afraid to reach out to me.
SPEAKER_00Man, that's awesome. And yeah, maybe we'll get the chapter up there rolling in Alberta. We I think we had our first chapter in Canada. Um we just got it kind of launched yesterday, and that's on Ontario. But uh maybe we'll get one one up your way. That would be a good thing. We've got to get one in the west. That's right. We gotta get it ever that way, man. I I look forward to it. We'll make that happen.