Act One Podcast
Act One Podcast
Screenwriter Eboni Freeman
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Act One Podcast - Episode 31 - Interview with Screenwriter, Eboni Freeman.
Eboni Freeman is a native Angelino who got her start in the television industry working for FOX Sports. While at FOX, she won an Emmy for her work on the 2015 Women’s World Cup. In 2016, Eboni was chosen as a Sundance Episodic Fellow and was also selected for WeForShe’s WriteHer List. She most recently was co-producer on the hit NBC series THIS IS US. While on THIS IS US, Eboni has been nominated for two Writers Guild Awards and a Humanitas Prize.
SPOILER WARNING: Eboni and I discuss the final episode of THIS IS US during the first 30 minutes of this episode.
The Act One Podcast provides insight and inspiration on the business and craft of Hollywood from a Christian perspective.
I remember one day there was like a script line next to my desk, just lying around, and I was bored. So I picked it up. I just read it and I was like, oh yeah, duh, people do this. Like I watched TV. I watched TV. It was like a light bulb went off. I got on the computer, ordered, I probably typed in how to write a screenplay. And I read the book from cover to cover, and I took the principles of the book and I wrote a screenplay.
James Duke:This is the Act One Podcast. I'm your host, James Duke. Thanks for listening. Please don't forget to subscribe to our little podcast at hand and leave us a good review. My guest today is screenwriter Ebony Freeman. Ebony is a native Angelino who got her start in the television industry working for Fox Sports. While at Fox, she won an Emmy for her work on the 2015 Women's World Cup. In 2016, Ebony was chosen as a Sundance episodic fellow and was also selected for We for Sheeds Writer List. She most recently was co-producer on the Hit NBC series This US, which we discussed quite a bit on today's podcast. And while on Vista, Ebony has been nominated for two Writer's Guilds Awards and a Humanocope Prize, which is really cool. Ebony is a wonderful person who I know you will enjoy hearing from. But this is a spoiler warning for you Vistaz Us fans who haven't watched the final episode yet. Ebony, Ebony and I do discuss some things that might ruin it for you. So this is your official spoiler warning. Enjoy. Ebony Freeman, welcome to the Act One podcast. It's great to have you on.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. I'm excited to be on.
James Duke:You know, we we connected uh through a you know an Act One alum, and um we're able to spend some time just you know catching up and talking. And I really wanted to invite you on to the show because I think that your or show, the podcast, because that your your journey, I think, is a fascinating one, one in which I think a lot of young, aspiring, uh, emerging writers can learn from. And I also just find you to be a fascinating person. So wow, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:So that's always good in this business.
James Duke:So, first off, let's let's talk about the, you know, obviously the elephant in the room. I've never known, I've never spoken to someone who just had a long-running hit TV show go off the air in the last 24 hours. So we're actually talking. Um uh, we're actually talking, it's been less than 24 hours since the finale, the series finale of This Is Us, um, aired. So, what's that feel like? So, you were you were on the you were a writer on the show for how many years again?
SPEAKER_01:So, for four seasons of the show, and this is us has been on for six seasons. So, I joined in season three.
James Duke:Okay. So you were you are working on a hit TV show for four seasons. What's it like to suddenly have it? I mean, I know for you it's been over with for a while, but yeah. What's it like? What's it like to uh post This Is Us after the finale? Do you have any can you explain the feelings or is are there feelings? Is it uh talk a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think a lot of people have been asking me for like the last maybe like four or five months now. Like, how do you feel? It's almost over, like, and honestly, like even with my therapist like talking about it, I'm like, you know, I don't really feel much of anything right now. Like, you know, when people would ask. We finished breaking the final episode, maybe like two months or a month and a half before it was, you know, over, over before this last episode aired. But we were, you know, still meeting up, um, watching cuts of episodes, stuff like that. And so every so now and again, we'd still have some work to do. But it hit me. I was surprised. I got a little emotional just watching it, um, which that doesn't happen to me quite often because I've seen the cuts of the episodes. I've, you know, I know it's gonna happen, you know. Um, but I think I was a little bit surprised at how emotional I felt about it all. But and just reflecting back as well on my time on the show and how grateful I've been to work with some incredible people. Um, just thinking about that, and I was looking at photos and stuff, just doing a lot yesterday.
James Duke:It was like graduate graduation ceremony or something, like yeah, that's funny. Um, you know, I if I remember correctly, the the creator and showrunner, uh, it's Dan Fogelman, right? Dan Fogelman. Um I think he had said in in in a in a particular interview a while back or something that he actually knew how the show was gonna end back in season one. Um, now that it's um over with, um, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. Was the finale kind of always? Did you guys make any changes to it? And you know, and obviously, characters, you know, there's lots of things that have happened between season one and season six. It's such a character-driven show, but I'm just curious about um that comment in particular. Um, was it as far as you know, was it still the the the idea that he had to close the show at the very beginning?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so and shout out to we have Dan Fulham is the creator and showrunner. We also have two other showrunners um who've been on the show since season one. Um, and I believe they came on as showrunners towards the end of season two, but Isaac Abtica and Elizabeth Berger. Um, they so yes, so as far as I know, when I came on in season three, I think he had a pretty good idea that he wanted to end the show in season six. Um, and I don't quite know if he knew exactly all the pieces that were gonna be there on the final episode. But I will say, as about a year or so ago, I think in season five, maybe end of season four, season five, we actually he did, you know, kind of start writing pieces of the series finale because um for those of you who have seen it or probably will have seen it now on Hulu or all that, um we have a lot of stuff that was shot um a year ago um that was used in the series finale because as you know, we have in different go in different timelines, and we have a lot of younger actors who are playing our, you know, the younger versions of our adult actors and the original, you know, younger actors who played the younger versions of the big three, you know, they were growing as children do, um can't stop, you know, stop them in time. So they were becoming teenagers, and um, you know, I think that it was an amazing idea on Dan's part to shoot the stuff ahead of time. So we were able to capture them as they were at that age, and it's almost like time stood still. So I think because of that, when we got into this final season, literally about half of the the final episode had already been shot. So it was just filling in um all of the present day stuff at that point.
James Duke:Wow, that's really interesting. That's the the uh um the the the writing process for a show like this, where you were not only do you have all these different um you know characters in within the family that you have to keep track of with their own storylines, but you have their their younger selves. So you're you're you're jumping in time. Um what was can you just talk a little bit about the process in the room of like was there a way in which you guys kept track of all these characters in the different timelines? Um uh what was the process in terms of of knowing kind of where everybody was and and uh all the characters were in the in the process?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I think first off, when I first uh joined, they had already there was on the wall, like um above the the board with all of our cards and everything, there was a big timeline that had been created of just like you know, major events, births, you know, uh big three were born here, all those different things. But I'll say our script coordinator who's who um is now she was staffed on the show. So she is now executive story editor on the show. She's so amazing because she kind of she was on the show since season one. She basically is the historian of the show. Like um she is the keeper of it all, and she knows if you have any questions about you're doing something, you're like, hey, have we, you know, said that already? Like, have we established, you know, uh that someone has, you know, sister is still alive or whatever the case may be. She's the one that you know we go to. So I think you know, it's it's kind of difficult because I think sometimes when we're breaking stuff, we're like, wait, did we we wrote that was in a script, but did we error that? Can we change that? You know, so sometimes you can get caught up by things that you've said and you have to stick to as far as the history and the lore. And the fans of the show are really good about remembering the lore. They'll call you out.
James Duke:Like uh that's that's that's one of those things that's very different about television today than it was years ago. And I you know, you'd get viewer mail back in the day, but you guys get real-time current on Twitter and social media. Hey, why did you let that happen? Why did you, you know, why'd you do that to Toby?
SPEAKER_01:You know, we don't think you have all the Twitter. Yeah, the weirdest thing to me though, with the this season, as we're done, I've seen us some stuff on Twitter about I think once in one episode, way back when they before I think I came on staff, they mentioned that Rebecca had a sister. And for some reason, Twitter was like, what happened to her sister? Why haven't we learned anything about her sister?
James Duke:It's a conspiracy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. All the details. I mean, it's a good thing that people are so locked into the details of it all. And I think that's a big part of the show. Um, we literally, that's the other part that I think when I came on staff, it was very difficult for me at first to um even figure out how to pitch for the show because because it literally is taking your stories, your ideas could literally be in any portion or part of these people's lives. It's so broad, also so very specific, but also so broad in where your imagination can go. I think I had to learn kind of how to you know get my mind to to work that way. So, but that's the cool part about it. I find it's fun now.
James Duke:Yeah. Do you uh uh I know you, I know you I know you can't play favorites, but I mean when you have a when you have such an amazing cast, like that's one of the things about this is us, right? It's just such a such a fantastic ensemble cast, particularly with the big three, but you know, all the entire cast. Do you did you uh did you particularly enjoy writing uh um one one character's voice in particular? Was there was there was there a character that you kind of really identified with that you always felt like you got a little extra something, even you yourself? Or or or even maybe a better way to ask the question is were there any characters in the show that you felt like reflected you as you wrote in kind of your thoughts on the world and things like that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'd say, I mean, first off, I've done most of my so I've written four episodes um over the course of my time on the show. I usually wrote one episode per season. And two of my episodes were sort of specialized episodes, but I've done a couple of episodes with um Susan Kelecci Watson, who plays uh Beth on the show. And um I don't know if I have one character that I enjoy sort of writing for more, but I would say that um, you know, with her episodes that I've done with her, um, Our Little Island Girl and then Our Little Island Girl Part Two, those episodes were really special and I connected with um very deeply on a personal level, um, because it it goes into sort of her past as someone who, a young black woman who wanted to be a dancer. And so that was kind of directly, you know, my life. Um so when I write, wrote Our Little Island Girl, the first one, it was very much so in a way that I wasn't expecting that I would have that opportunity. It was very much, very personal, very specific, um, in a lot of things that were me.
James Duke:Did they know that when they assigned that script to you? Did they know that about you?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So so the fact that she was a dancer, actually, the funny part is is that well, God knew it because he I wasn't even, I wasn't there yet when Dan decided to make uh everybody had been wanting to see best backstory, and Dan had decided they're gonna do it season three. And he, Susan Kalecchi Watson, has a dance background, and so he thought, oh, let's make her a dancer without any sort of specificity or whatever, just the idea. And um, once I came on staff, uh, and once we got to the point where we were actually breaking the story for that episode, I just started like nobody else in the room had any sort of dance background, not even a little bit, not even like a scoosh. Like, so, and I was, you know, new writer on staff. I was, I didn't even know if I was gonna get an episode to write that season. That's what I was told by the showrunners. So I was, you know, once that came up in the room, I just started pitching like crazy. I mean, just basically about my life, uh, you know, studying mostly ballet, being the only black uh girl in an all-white like environment in the ballet world, what that was like for me, how it felt having this dream, um, you know, all those things. And so once a couple days of that, I remember the showrunners came back in one day to the room and they're like, okay, so Ebony's gonna write this episode because none of us know what the heck we're doing when it comes to dance. So yeah, that was how I got that was how I got the episode.
James Duke:That's great. That's great. Yeah, talk a little bit about the writer's room experience for This Is Us for a lot of um our audience who are you know they're who are interested in writing for television. Give us a little bit of the nuts and bolts experience there. So um you talked about getting that episode. So what does that mean for the uninitiated? So you came on as a staff writer in season three, and uh you said you were pitching. So, what is it, what what's the process of like who gets to write episodes and how did you get to write episodes? And then if you're not writing a quote unquote episode, what else are you doing in the room?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a a great question. So um really, so when I got hired as a staff writer, um, and this was I can't remember who gave me this advice, but a writer that I knew that was working in the business gave me an advice to um basically, I was gonna have a call with the showrunners on kind of like what they were expecting of me and all that stuff. And and um, you know, so they they gave me what they were expecting of me as a staff writer, which was basically I would be in the room um to to you know take some time to kind of see how they worked, um, and then and then you know, pitch from there. Um and they told me right off the bat that as a staff writer, because we have like we do 18 episodes for the show, and there's about 13 of us, including you know, our showrunners. Um, and so most of the higher-ups, how it works on the show, most of the higher-ups, they do at least two episodes per season. Um, and you know, Dan Fogelman is gonna do the first episode, the last final episode, the showrunners are gonna do two episodes, all that stuff. So really, it's like they're like, we may or may not give you one. And also, just for the listeners to know, when you get hired as a staff writer, usually it's just a 20-week initial contract. So the show, at least for a broadcast show, is gonna go beyond those 20 weeks. And that's basically because they're like, we don't know, we might want to like fire you, you know, um, if it doesn't work out. So yeah. So, you know, so with the show, um how they do it is most of most of all of our jobs, no matter if you're a co-EP or a staff writer, all of our job is basically every day going into the writer's room or being over Zoom on a writer's room, and we are breaking story for the episodes. Um and basically once, depending on what you know the showrunners decide, as we're breaking story, sometimes it's decided before they pick, they decide that which writer is going to take that story and go off and write it. And um, and yeah, so some shows I've heard from other people, um, other writers that I know, some shows actually um group write episodes, I've heard, where you know, I think one person does get the the credit, but they break it up and and sort of kind of do it that way. But with our show, it's very much um, if you're not in the writer's room, you're probably doing these things. You're you're off on an episode, writing your episode, or you might be in production. So with our show as well, we got the opportunity to, if once you write the episode, you're also producing it. So you're doing all the things um to produce the episode. You're going to all the meetings from you know, costumes to uh props to all that stuff, tone meetings with the director. And so you, if you're not in the writer's room, you might be on set, you know, for your episode. So that's essentially, but again, that's like the maybe the writing process is about a month of your time there, but and then being on set is you know another couple of weeks or so. So most of my time is actually was actually in the writer's room breaking story on whatever episode we were at that point.
James Duke:You know, I always find the excuse me, the the hierarchical nature of a writer's room so fascinating, and that, you know, the There's these steps and these roles that you know it and um and and yet what I've also always found fascinating is uh I've I've I've talked to a lot of different people about their writing room experiences, including showrunners. And and there there tends to be some consistent things I I hear. One is um that writers' rooms can be very tough because because you're in there every day with each other and you're just literally you're just talking, you're just talking all day to each other about your lives, about what's going on, about the story. Like you're you're all you're all mining right each other's lives for stuff that you can write for the characters, right? Um, so it can get tough, right? I've heard it can get very tough and intense. But then the other thing I've also ever always heard too is that writers are so generous with new and upcoming writers, like older right seasoned writers tend to always try to appreciate and value the hard work that young writers put into it. And they try if they if they see the work being put into it, they'll help them along the way. I'm just curious, was that your on this show? Was that did that does that ring a bell? Or the was your experience similar in both of those ways?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, um, most definitely. I think like number one, we were talking about just the nature of being in the writer's room for, and this is before Zoom when we were together in person for eight plus hours. Um, you know, it I think I was shocked by how I would go home and and feel exhausted, just like my brain. I'm like, my brain like hurts. Like I'm not used to, you know, it's like I wasn't running around doing anything, like, you know, it's pretty you're you're sitting there in a chair this whole time, but like I'm tired, I'm exhausted because I've just been thinking all day and you know, solving problems and all those things. And sometimes it can get really emotional, especially on our show, if you can imagine the kinds of issues that shocking.
James Duke:Shocking, the writers room for this just in breaking news. The writer's room for this is us got emotional every once in a while.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Shocker, right? Um, so there were there were a lot of moments that you know where you are being incredibly vulnerable to other people on your staff to your coworkers in a way that any other probably job or whatever you wouldn't be. Um, and I think that when I first joined, um, it was like you said, like at least on this show, it was definitely everyone very much so welcomed me. And as, you know, and with our higher ups, um, definitely were there to, you know, offer advice. Um, you know, just if if you had any, because the thing is you have your showrunners, right? And they're doing a million and one things. They're, they're, they are busy. Um, they've got a lot going on. And so I think what's really great about those who are like the co-ep level, who a lot of the writers who are co-EP level, they might have had their own shows at some point, which on our show we have a couple writers who, you know, they've been writing for a while and just like seasoned veterans in the business. And so it was really great to be able to um come to them with whether it's questions about, you know, kind of like getting feedback from them on how you're doing in the room, if you're not quite sure, or even like questions about the business, um, you know, for other things um that you may need a little bit of advice for. So I definitely got that. Um, I I still get that. I still, I mean, I text, you know, the writers on the show that are like, you know, I consider, I really admire them and I admire their advice. And especially now that I'm going into like developing and stuff like that, I'm constantly bothering and asking questions. And hey, you know, you know, what should I do about this? Or can I see what you did for this and all those things? So um, yeah, they they've been an amazing help, and I've learned a lot from all of them.
James Duke:All right. So then my last this is us question, then we'll move on. Uh I know there's a lot of this is us fans out there, they want that. Okay, so from and this is just your opinion. So this that you can you can take you can answer this however you want, you know, if it was conversations in the room with other people, or just you, just you as a writer and uh and I'm assuming you were also a fan of the show. Maybe you hated the show, you I'm just kidding. Uh but um you know, post the finale, um what do you think? Um, what do you think life looked like for the big three going forward? Like if there was an like where where where do you, you know, do you did you guys talk about that or just you yourself, like just you know, as a fan as of the characters, like what do you think uh happens to the big three um going forward?
SPEAKER_01:Well, uh, I think that it's interesting because the show when the show starts, the character Kevin's character, he's sort of the most um Randall is incredibly successful as well in his career and in his family and all that stuff. But Kevin is like the super, he's like the actor, he's rich rich and famous and all those stuff. And I think it's really interesting that by the time we get towards the end of the series, Kevin is living a simpler life. Um, he is sort of um, you know, not so much in the limelight or worried about being the limelight like he was. He is, you know, finally settled, married, he has children, all those things that he's wanted. And so, you know, I'd imagine that that, you know, I think that's what, you know, sort of their lives are gonna look like. I think Randall and the way that we envision him, and for those that watch the final episode, um, you know, he makes a comment about the DNC and all that stuff. And so I think in our brains, you know, we didn't want to go there and just say it. We didn't, you know, um, but I think he has, I would I would envision that I don't know if he will become president of the United States, but I, you know, I think he would definitely run. Um, and I think he would have some sort of long career in politics and um, you know, just sort of take Kevin's place as being in the limelight in sort of his later years of his life. Um and and yeah, and I think Kate, you know, she's we say it, you know, she's she's doing a lot as far as the music school and and and working with you know the blind and all that stuff. So I think you know, her trajectory is probably similar to that. Um, I didn't really envision much more, but but yeah, I think it's I think it's really interesting. I think, yeah, Randall, Randall is gonna be a really, really big deal.
James Duke:And um, yeah, so I okay, I do have one more question, but um it's it's you know, it's more of a comment too, but just curious your thoughts. I I think in addition to just great writing and great um acting that made the show so popular. Um I there's not a lot of shows that really celebrate like there's a lot of families. I mean, there's a lot of shows that actually show families. But but this is us truly celebrates family. It celebrates family bonds, it celebrates um what unites people, what divides people. Obviously, it talks about even uh family outside of blood family, you know, like there's there's these bonds that connect us and make us family, and it's and it's really celebrated. And I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that, because in the end, that's what I think is one of the biggest takeaways of the show is that there was this real sense of uh everyone's family is unique and different and special. But in the end, um when family works, when family works well, it works really well to the benefit of you know everyone in the family. There's this real sense of love and acceptance and community inside a family.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I'd have to agree with with everything you said, and I think that's why um for me, I loved Dan Fogelman's this decision, creative decision on how he did, you know, ended the show on that final episode. Because I know, like, you know, the train, you know, when Rebecca passes, that's you know, such a creative moment. It's such an emotional moment. And um, you know, I absolutely love that episode as well. But I think like our final episode is very indicative of like what our show has been as a whole, like it's about it really at the end of the day, it's about um the bonds of family and the small moments and those things that you know, those milestones, like I mean, even just the scene of them if him teaching them to shave and like that's really what the show is, in my opinion. And yes, we've done all the flashboards and the future and the mysteries kind of and all that stuff. And and um, but I think at the end of the day, like when you think about the legacy of the show, that's what I think about is like when you watch This Is Us, it makes you it takes you back to your childhood, it takes you back to like what it felt like to sort of go through the growing pains that we're watching the big three go through. And then for those who are experiencing parenthood now, they're you know, they're experiencing all those things that the big three are experiencing. Um, and I I really love too the the his decision to sort of, you know, a lot of it was uh it ends on Randall looking at Deja and her future grandchild and his future grandchild. And in the past, it's Jack and Randall. And I think that was a really interesting choice, too, because those are the two adopted members of, you know, sort of that family. But even so, not being blood, as Deja is carrying on um the Randall's history of William and all that stuff, so it so did Randall, you know, sort of carry on really like the Jack legacy. Um, so yeah, so that's why I just I I just love, love, love how Dan, you know, put it together and and and wrote that. I just thought it was really truly beautiful. Um, and yeah, it just gives you those nostalgic uh feelings about what it means to be a family and and all of that. So yeah.
James Duke:I I really do think that that's and I think about even the there's another show that ended the same time you guys did, which I also it was blackish, right? Like blackish, same thing, right? Celebrated families, specifically the black family experience. But I mean, it was a show that I could watch with my kids. I mean, it because it family dynamics are universal, and oh yeah, um, and it was a ridiculously funny show, and um, and so yeah, it's interesting that both shows are ending at the same time. Um, I think that did it air opposite, you guys. Now that I think about it, I wonder did it air opposite?
SPEAKER_01:This is you know what? I don't know because I feel like blackish switched times a few times, like I think they did. I yeah, I feel like we've always been on Tuesdays, yeah. Um, at least since I joined, we've always been on Tuesdays, but and I feel like Blackish was like Thursday at one point, and I don't know, but yeah, I think another really great yeah.
James Duke:Um let's let's talk a little bit about um how you became a screenwriter. You you grew up in the church. Was was the idea of being working in Hollywood and being a professional screenwriter uh in your family and in where you grew up? Was that something that was um accepted and normal? Was that was that did that and and was that even something you were interested in as a young person? Because I know you obviously you were in the arts because you were a dancer, um, or was this something that came to you uh uh later, your passion to write?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I grew, you know, growing I grew up in LA and and um surprisingly so, even though well, I had a bit of a childhood on the East Coast, but from like 11 on, I was in LA. And I gotta say, I'd never not once thought about working in Hollywood. Like it did not, that's great, even, it wasn't even a thought in my mind. Now, granted, I didn't, there was no one in my family who you know did that or was any on my mom or my dad's side, there was really no connection that we had to the business. I think one of my brothers like um best friends, he he was an actor. So that was probably the only like actor we knew, and he he had done some stuff. Um, but yeah, like truly, it had not crossed my mind. And really at the time, I was most of my early school years, really through high school, I was very much interested in dance, and I very much wanted to pursue that as a career. Uh, and so when I quit in high school and I went off to college at the University of Michigan, I really was one of those students that had no idea, like absolutely no idea what I wanted to do with my life. And so I jumped from like physical therapy. I thought maybe I want to be a physical therapist because maybe that will allow me to work with dancers and and keep, you know, keep in that that world. And then when I decided that wasn't for me, um, I sort of moved into like a more communications major. And it it was sports management and communications, so it had sort of a side of like sports business. But um, you know, even doing that, I sort of threw myself into that because I really just didn't know what else I wanted to do. So I was like, sports is a lucrative business, like, you know, I guess. Like, so when I tell you I worked for the athletic department, I I mean, I was I was in it, I was trying to make it make it work. Um, but the summer before my senior year, I had an internship. I came back out out here to LA. I had an internship um for FX, which was on the Fox lot. So I now I'm like in that world. Um, it's in publicity. And um, I was really like, you know, it was a small department at that time. Um, this was like over 10 years ago, so I'm sure they're bigger now. Um, but they, you know, I worked for them and I was sort of bored because they didn't have much for me to do. Um, and so I just I remember one day there was like a script lying next to my desk, just lying around. And I was bored. So I picked it up. I don't even know what it was for. I think it was like for a show that didn't quite get on air or something like that. But um I just read it and I was like, oh wow, this is interesting. Like, oh yeah, duh, people do this. Like I watch TV, I watch movies, but it's not like how it is now, where like with everyone's obsessed with knowing who wrote the stuff. Like writers, people weren't, you know, you you knew directors, you knew who you could name directors, you knew who Spikley was, you knew who Steven Spielberg was, you know, all that. Um, and so I just it was like literally when it was like a light bulb went off, like an aha, you know, as Oprah was saying, moment.
James Duke:Someone, someone actually someone actually gets paid to write these things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I was like, oh, cool. So then I literally, when I say I got on the computer at work, went on Amazon, or and this is before Amazon Prime, so you know, ordered the ordered, I probably typed in how to write a screenplay, whatever the first book was, came to my house and I read the book from cover to cover, and I took the principles of the book and I wrote a screenplay. And it was about right what you know, it was about being a resident advisor at a Midwest college in the Midwest. Um, and that was basically what it was about. And um I enjoyed the process, and so I was like, okay, hey, let me write another one. And so I wrote a second script. And by that time, I was like, Well, I really like this. This is really cool. I think it was tapping into something creative that I a creative outlet. I mean, I was always creative. I danced, I was, you know, so it was just like, oh, this is I really find this to be fun. So when I went back for my senior year in Michigan, I enrolled in um a uh screenwriting course in the film school for the for the first my first semester back for my senior year. Again, like just my favorite class. I was so excited about it, so into it. We I wrote another original screenplay. And then basically that class gave me a lot of like confidence that, oh, maybe I have a little bit of a nap for this. And I think my professor was very encouraging. And so the second semester, my final semester before I graduated, I took um their sort of uh second class after that class, which is where you rewrite the script that you wrote in the first uh class. And so by that time, um by the time I was getting ready to graduate, I was very much like, I'm moving back to LA and I'm gonna be a writer. Like that was the point where I like said it out loud. Like, um, and I feel like my parents were like, all right, like I mean, I don't, you know, they didn't like they were very encouraging. I think they were very much like, well, you got to get a job. Like obviously I knew how to get like a job and there were bills to be paid and I had student loans to pay off. So there was never like, I was never that type of person where it was like blah they blah, I'm just gonna like kind of, you know. So yeah, I came back and um I think naively, I thought it after that first year, I was gonna, you know, sell a screenplay and make millions. Um, and it took almost 10 years. Um, and so yeah, that was basically the process, but uh it was yeah.
James Duke:So you were you were in college when you discovered this passion. And what was it? You you know, you mentioned you really liked it, and so you wanted to do it again. What was it that you liked? I mean, you talked about being a creative outlet, but I'm just curious in terms of when you find something new, what is it that makes you want to go back to the well and do it again and again? What do you what what what ex I don't know if you can remember those feelings, remember those thoughts, but what was it that made you want to say, you know what, I liked this, I want to write again.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I just like I think it was the storyteller in me. Like, even as a dancer, I was always, I think I more so skewed on the, you know, I think if I pictured my life as a dancer, it would probably be more as a choreographer. Like I would probably be one of those dancers that dances professionally for a little while. but quickly goes into the the choreographer route. I was more into telling stories in that way. And so I think when it came to the screenplay of it all, I just I really enjoyed telling stories related mostly for me, relatable stories about things that were connected to my life. And um you know I thought I was pretty good at uh pretty good at you know developing characters. And so I think it was just I think what drew me to it was I felt like I had a knack for it. And um you know I think that was one of the reasons why I kept pursuing it is because I felt like and I felt like I was getting positive feedback from other people that like hey you you know obviously you have to keep developing your craft but that I have something there that was worth developing I guess. Yeah.
James Duke:Why did you quit dancing?
SPEAKER_01:Because I knew I wasn't going to make it as a professional dancer.
James Duke:I truly I quit I like how I I I like how practical and realistic you are I love it. But but why what what made you what made you how did you come to that conclusion?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah so I was very much on um I danced like I got into it like six or seven years old. And um when I got to be like 11 or 12 I got really into it where I was on like a uh I went to I was in Debian Dance Academy for a little while um when I when I got to like 12 years old. And that is very much like a semi-professional track as far as like you're taking 16, 18 classes a week. You are yeah you it is your life and you are really training um on a high level with high level teachers to you know go into the professional uh professional world and so I think once I got there um and I I one thing about me I was a very hard worker I I worked very very hard and I knew that about myself and my teachers saw that in me and all that stuff. But I recognized the because the thing about dancing is you know yes you can work hard but there are certain things physically and certain natural abilities that you just you need to have it you need that part and then you need the other part. But um I think I recognized in myself there were certain natural abilities that just it was going to make it very very difficult for me. And so it just I think it made me um a little bit uh it's it sort of made me lose a little bit of my love of it at the time because as a teenager I'm like I love this so much I work so hard I'm dedicating my life young life to this and and I why don't I have the things that these other young dancers have I wish I had you know her feet her legs her whatever and so I think I got disillusioned by it and so that was the reason why I quit I was just like I don't think that I can uh realistically put more years of my life into uh really because the dance world is just as cut I mean that's a cutthroat world it's hard world and so I feel like you know I just didn't think that I had it in me essentially I I've I've known some dancers in my in my life and I I uh some of the best storytellers I know uh or have known um have been dancers like the I I I understand what you're saying in terms of that I also know that they all have feet problems they all have that's the downside you know what kind of dancer were you so I mostly um mostly ballet um and uh do you still do you still have feet did you quit enough or do you still have feet problems yourself?
James Duke:Oh I don't have any feet problems because I quit so I didn't do when I got into point which is what creates all those problems I probably did point for about maybe three three or four years before I quit and so um and even then I wasn't when we were at when I was at Devon Dance Academy we were doing ballet but we were also doing modern and jazz and all and it was a little bit more well rounded and so I wasn't on point shoes like ballet dancers are all day every day um essentially um so my feet are are perfectly for anyone who wants to know I feel yeah yeah yeah inquiring Maya that's weird but okay um TMI sorry um so you um so in that you mentioned you know it uh that kind of that 10 year journey for you um which is something we talk about at act one a lot um so inside that 10 year journey you actually you had a career you had a different career and so you were you were writing right developing your writing career but but full time you were going to work at at uh fox sports or something right isn't that right yes yes i had a whole career like what did i tell you i so i started pretty early on when i graduated i ended up getting a job at fox sports um basically from my connections from the internship from knowing people in hr over there and so um i got an opportunity to be an executive assistant to the um eVp in graphics um at fox sports and so i didn't know anything about graphics but it was an executive assistant job I didn't need to um and so I was like great I can do this it was a very much like eight to five job um and I can write and I really genuinely thought that like maybe I would be in the job one to two years max and then I would transition to writing but um you know that as the year after the first year went by as executive assistant the my boss he he liked me and so he offered me a promotion as a coordinator and so I was like okay great more money like so I moved to coordinator and then you know do I did that job for a year or two and so basically my time at Fox Sports I ended up while I'm writing I ended up moving up in the department um all the way to producer level and so by that time when I was like at producer level I was really um you know I had my own projects that was working on I worked the Women's World Cup um I you know I was really doing well at Fox Sports and I think even though I was writing and and at this time I was mostly writing features um I wasn't really seeing much you know there will be little here and there were you know like oh I got a manager now.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, great. I have a manager that's a win or whatever or oh I'm a part of this new writer's group and you know this is this is really going to help me get a little bit further you know in my craft and all that stuff. Oh I have an interview for a showrunner's assistant or I have an interview for a writer's assistant then don't get the jobs you know so it was a lot of those things happening um and it just not not enough nothing really was happening and so I just kept taking the the bumps at Fox Sports kept taking the promotions because you know why why not? And I genuinely liked the people that I worked with. I mean I really liked the people that I worked with like I'm still friends with them today. Like I still talk to my managers and my bosses at Fox that's how much that's great. That's that's that's really good. Yeah yeah so but um but yeah really it was a crossroads for me it got to the point where after I worked at the Women's World Cup I remember that summer I mean and I that was a hard that whole women's world cup that was a lot of work and I remember after it being a success and I thought to myself hmm maybe I should just do this like maybe this is you know maybe this is the crossroads of me deciding like get rid of writing once and for all and just pursue this career Fox Sports because people liked me. I was just like I could really go far here and probably be fine. And I remember actually my uh a boyfriend that I had at the time he was like he's an entrepreneur and he gave me um a podcast to listen to it was um Dave Ramsey had you know he has multiple stuff but he had a podcast entree leadership which is mostly geared towards like people salespeople and um I listened to this podcast this one episode and it talked about it's basically him talking to these sales people who are complaining about the results and all this stuff and he's basically like basically like telling them you're not doing enough like you're you know why don't you basically put so much activity so much work within he says a 90 it was a three month period put so much activity that literally creates a combustion and I'm probably not saying this completely right but I remember it was just like go go go as hard as you can for three months and then and then come back and tell me you don't have any results. And so it just clicked with me and I was like hmm maybe I'll try that this will be my last sort of hurrah and see you know if this is really what I want to do. And that's what I did. I literally I wrote as many scripts as I could I just just started writing scripts after script after script after script. And I also one of the big things that I did at that time was I changed from writing screenplays to TV pilots because I felt like at that time what was happening in the TV landscape was really exciting. There were stories that were being told that I wanted to tell black women at the forefront of these stories and I was like okay this is the medium that I want to be in. And so those two things together changed your TV um you know just put like I was put where I was like you know kind of a hermit in a in a little cave like if my friends were hitting me up to do anything it was always I can't I'm writing I can't I'm writing I was that was constantly like I didn't do anything for three months. And one of the scripts that I wrote out of that three month period I applied to a bunch of TV fellowships and I got into Sundance episodic lab and that changed everything. So that was really the trajectory.
James Duke:That's great because excuse me um you you you you said a lot there in terms of just I think a lot a lot there's a lot to to for people to process who might be in a similar um similar situation because you know a couple of things one is um you know I always I've always told people um in any kind of space work begets work begets work begets work in other words take the job right like don't just sit around don't just say no to every opportunity that comes your way and just sit around hoping and waiting for the opportunity right like instead if it's a legitimate opportunity I'm not saying you know go do any single thing but I'm saying like work does beget work it leads to other work because more times than not especially in our business so much of that work comes from relationships and people who meet you in other contexts and they and they you know they they will let people know or they will let you know about an opportunity you know that kind of thing. But the other thing too is you're gaining skills you're gaining you know as a writer you're you're living you know it's lived experiences that create a deeper well in which you can write from all that kind of stuff. And of course you know you got to pay the bills. So you know it's kind of important you know um no starving artists around here that's right that's right exactly and so um you know that to me uh speaks volumes right so if you're listening to this podcast and you're sitting in your mom's basement and you're gonna be a basement and you're refusing to go out and get that job because you want to write the next great American screenplay I think Ebby and I are saying together go get a job get a job that's right go get a job. But no more than that like I I think what one of the things I think is great about your your journey is um you you you actually said to yourself I'm going to go until I can't go anymore. And then and then you talk about this idea of hitting it really hard for a certain period of time. And I think that's kind of pretty awesome um what when you were just when you were just trying to crank out scripts right when you were just like I'm gonna hit it hard I'm just gonna crank out these scripts um what were you using as kind of a gauge um that what you were writing was you know any good was worthwhile uh you know like uh because that's the other thing that I hear all the time well I don't have anybody to read my stuff I don't have anybody to tell me you know and yet here you are you're just like okay fine I'm gonna go an intense period of time I'm just gonna write right right right right what in what what was a gauge for you? How did what was that process like for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah that's a really good question. So yeah during that time when I was going going going cranking out as many scripts as I can I was actually involved in a writer's group and so I would say during the period of those 10 years I I have been involved in a handful of writers groups over the years through people relationships that I have made people that I knew who knew that I you know wrote and wanted to write and you know would sort of be connected that way. So I remember that particular year I had had a friend of a friend actually we met we met through a friend and at a thing a writer's thing and he was starting up a writer's group and he invited me to join and so during that and they were all also mostly there was one person who mostly did screenplays but everybody was mostly um trying to get into the TV space. And so um I think that was really important for me because I had you know transitioned to wanting to do that. And so we would meet once a week um and we would turn in pages and so everything that I was writing they were reading they were giving me notes um and that was for that particular pilot that I um applied to the fellowships for they they read that pilot. They gave me notes on that pilot um and that was how I workshopped it. And you know I think even though you know obviously as a writers group we're all you know everyone is sort of doing the best that they can because they're not working in the business yet. So they're they're we're all working off the knowledge that we have um and I think that's that's great and that'll get you far. And then of course when you do break into the business you'll learn a lot more you know you'll you'll learn a whole nother whether whether you whether you like it or not right whether that's why I always tell writers too I think I think a lot of writers um sometimes are pretty bent on well I have to get my script and get notes from a a working writer. Like I need them to like and I I never did I never did and I think number one it's that's very hard to do because you know people are busy and and you can't just be giving your scripts that so I think like you know it it goes really far it'll get you really far to find a dedicated group of writers as yourself who have the work ethic that you have um and um to can workshop your your scripts and I think that um again agents for for new writers showrunners I'm sure when the showrunners for this is up read my script I'm sure they could have given me a million different ways I could have done better on it but what they were looking for yes I had a a concept of of the craft and and of writing a script and scenes and all that stuff I had the technical stuff down but I think more than anything what they got from my script was who I was as a writer my voice my point of view and that's what I think leapt off the page. And so I think don't get bogged down by the the I have this thing and and I have to have this you know professional give me notes or else I'm not gonna go far I think that's that's not true.
James Duke:I think so that's really that's really good advice. I can't I can't agree with you more try to find writers similar writers at your level with your passion with your work ethic to write to write to be in a writer's group with where you're reading their stuff they're reading your stuff that makes a yeah that makes a huge that makes a huge difference. One of the things that I've heard a lot uh people I've talked with is um particular you know for writers particularly for television um but but all writing in general is POV is really important right like uh finding your voice and um and having having a particular point of view is really important. Could you break that down for us just a tiny bit from your understanding of what why is that so important for a young emerging writer to develop yeah so I think first of all it was something that didn't really click for me until like literally when I started writing for TV and that and that sort of clicked because when I started writing TV pilots the reason why I wanted to do it I I thought to myself I said first of all for the last whatever seven eight years I've been writing these screenplays that haven't been getting any traction because really quite frankly I was writing stuff that I thought you know was popular.
SPEAKER_01:I was writing stuff where I thought oh this this with the idea of this would sell um and you know I was not really writing necessarily what I was passionate about or what you know really was specific to me as a person. And so when I asked myself that question what would I want to watch on TV then that was when I came up with a story that was incredibly personal to me. Now it wasn't like you don't have to have something that's like ripped from your life or like ripped from the headline sort of thing but it was personal to me because it was very specific to the people I knew to the way in which from my perspective Um, you know, people interacted or were um, it was just my point of view on life and the world, I think in that script was very specific. Um, and also authentic. So when you, you know, the reason why it's so important is because in whatever you do, let's say for TV, your showrunners, let's say for This Is Us, we have a show, they're looking for, you know, we have a show about a family with these different sorts of characters that are going through, you know, one has weight issues, one have, you know, one's adopted all this stuff. So you want to have a writer's room that um has a diverse, at least more now, they're thinking this way, a more diverse uh point, you know, of a verse thought process. And so that's how you, you know, you get these stories that you get because we've all lived completely different lives. And I think, you know, when they read my script, um, which was very, very black woman oriented, like from that lens um and that point of view, um, I think that it just resonated. And so that's why I think, you know, when when writers ask me like, what's the one thing that I can tell them to do? It's my goodness, write um write something that you are again, it doesn't have to be about an autobiographical account of your life, but something that is specific to you in some way, shape, or form. Um, because you're gonna write it better. You're just going to, okay. You're gonna write, write better, you're gonna write, it's gonna be more specific, it's going to feel authentic to people. Um, and it's just gonna leap off the page and it's going to uh make you um desirable to those that are gonna be hiring you to tell stories. So yeah, but you know, that's what I yeah.
James Duke:What makes your script unique is your own uniqueness, right? Like you. Yeah, it's you. And like if I'm reading, if I'm reading 10 different spec scripts, um the one that's gonna stick out, because they might, they're probably all at a similar quality level in terms of you know, they're written competently or or you know, they're you know, whatever. But but the more unique yours is, that's actually what's going to make it stand out and take in people the reader will take notice and and and yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's the other thing too is even thinking about this now as like um being out of the writer's room and going into development, when you are so it's like you think of this idea. That's why I think it's people sometimes are so um uh precious about ideas, and I think especially like newer writers, they like, oh my gosh, I can't, I can't tell you my idea because you know that's gonna that's the thing, and I don't want anybody to steal it. But when you think about point of view, it's like you we could literally say, I'm writing a show about uh a black female true crime detective in the South. Like we could both have those same ideas, and because of how different we are, we will attack those two ideas completely differently. And you know, that's a thing that comes along when you are going into meetings and you're developing and you're going out for like open writing assignments. Producers want to know you're you're basically pitching your take on something, how you would take the idea, the book they want to turn into a movie, whatever, and you're saying, This is how I would do it, you know, like there's this book, and they're meeting with whatever how many writers, and every single one of those writers, because of who how different we are, we're gonna have our own way, specific way of how we see that story. And so when you think of point of view, I think even more now, um I see the importance of that and the importance of of how that works.
James Duke:So yeah, I a friend of mine says, people always think like when they uh think of like you know, the Tarantinos or the Sorkins of the world, and they go, um, oh, you know, it's the way they write dialogue that um, you know, that's their voice. And it and and and he's like, Nope, that's not their voice, that's just the way they write dialogue. Uh, it's the way they view the world, it's the way they view the world and and more specifically, um, the way they view those care, the way they view those characters in that world, and um and how um their their own unique perspective on the world, um, that that is what's gonna get reflected in the art form, you know, like um, even you know, like I even think even for you as a dancer back in the day, right? Like um you would interpret a song, right? You would interpret, um, you the you would, you know, your your body would move to the to the to the music, but what you were interpreting was actually your understanding of the emotional experience of that song, what the what the lyrics were saying, right, right? And I think that's what we do as artists, right? We do that as artists, we do that as writers, we do that as storytellers, as filmmakers. And that's kind of the power of the the um the beauty of the arts, you know, and we can and we can help pro we can help other people, um, the audience process their own emotions. You know, this is what you know, we go we're going back to the old school days with Aristotle and the idea of catharsis, and like to actually give the audience this this cathartic experience where they can um process their emotions and in an outlet. And you know, you you're on a show that was very well known for allowing people to have cathartic experience. Um this has been this has been great, Ebony. I really enjoyed um our conversation, and um, I think there's so much that I think people can learn from your journey and just your um I'm just so impressed with you. And one of the one of the things that I enjoy about uh uh doing this podcast is that I think I'm introducing to our audience individuals who need our prayer. And I think just the fact that people get to know you through this podcast, just know that you'll have people praying for you and uh and praying for these opportunities for you and all this good stuff. So, Ebony, thank you so much for uh being a being a part of this. And um, we really appreciate your time. And if it's okay with you, I always close my podcast by praying for my guests. Would you allow me to do that?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, of course. Thank you.
James Duke:Heavenly Father, we just uh pause and um just stop and thank you for who you are and what you do have done for all of us. And um, God, we thank you for your goodness. And uh and I just want to thank you now for Ebony and thank you for just her her life and her talent and just her giftings, um, the way she just brings so much joy into the room. And um God, just pray a blessing upon her. God, we pray that you would um just go before her and uh uh with all these different opportunities, and God, that you would um uh just give her just an uh amazing space to do great things in this business um as a writer and creator. And God, I pray you would fill her with your creativity and fill her with your imagination, and that she would uh be so inspired to create uh that it would just be uh just a huge overflow. And um, God, we just pray that you would uh protect her, watch over her um uh through all of this. And and we just thank you for this opportunity. And we pray this in Jesus' name and your promise as we stand. Amen. Thank you for listening to the Act One podcast, celebrating over 20 years as the premier training program for Christians in Hollywood. Act One is a Christian community of entertainment industry professionals who train and equip storytellers to create works of truth, goodness, and beauty. The Act One program is a division of Master Media International. To financially support the mission of Act One or to learn more about our programs, visit us online at Act One Program.com. And to learn more about the work of Master Media, go to MasterMedia.com.