Act One Podcast
Act One Podcast
Writer/Director Nathan Scoggins
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Act One Podcast - Episode 34 - Interview with Writer/Director, Nathan Scoggins.
Nathan is the writer/director of the film, WHAT REMAINS. The film tells the story of a small town pastor who is forced to reckon with an act of forgiveness when the convict he forgave for murdering his wife returns to town five years later, while the town sheriff investigates another murder that may be related. WHAT REMAINS is in select theaters and on demand beginning December 2nd so be sure to check it out.
Use this link to purchase tickets: https://www.laemmle.com/film/what-remains-1
Watch the trailer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwYuEH5RD1s
Some of Nathan’s other credits include THE LEAST OF THESE, released in 2011 by Universal and starring Isaiah Washington (“Grey’s Anatomy”) and Oscar-nominee Robert Loggia, as well as the TV movie THE PERFECT SUMMER starring Eric Roberts and the independent feature film RED LINE. He also recently directed two episodes of an upcoming television series for Sony Affirm to premiere in 2023.
The Act One Podcast provides insight and inspiration on the business and craft of Hollywood from a Christian perspective.
But I do think that you have to have this gut check all the time of where does your heart really lie? You know, Jesus says where your treasure is, then your heart is also. Is your is your treasure in career success? Is your treasure in getting a job on a studio? Is your treasure in all these other things? Because if that's it, it's gonna fade. And the cost to your family is not a cost to make.
James Duke:This is the Act One Podcast. I'm your host, James Duke. Thanks for listening. Please don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and leave us a good review. My guest today is writer-director Nathan Scottins. Nathan's latest film, What Remains, tells the story of a small town pastor who is forced to reckon with an act of forgiveness when the convict he forgave for murdering his wife returns to town five years later while the town sheriff investigates another murder that may be related. The film is in select theaters and on demand beginning December 2nd, so please be sure to check it out. Some of Nathan's other credits include The Least of These, a film I helped produce, which was released in 2011 by Universal and stars Isaiah Washington and Oscar nominee Robert Logia. Nathan's other credits include the TV movie The Perfect Summer, starring Eric Roberts, and the independent feature film Redline. He also recently directed two episodes of an upcoming television series for Sony Affirm to premiere in 2023. Nathan is one of my closest friends in the world and he has a lot of great insight to share. I hope you enjoy. Nathan Scoggins, welcome to the Act One programs. Good to see you, buddy.
SPEAKER_04:Good to see you too. Thanks for having me.
James Duke:Uh in the process of you making this uh film that we wanted to talk about today. So I'm excited because first of all, we want to let people know right out of the gate that uh when they hear this podcast, that they can go out and see the film. So just people will be able to get this podcast right away. So can you just tell everyone right now um when will they be able to watch the film? Where will they be able to go and see it? How can they get access to your film? What remains?
SPEAKER_04:Sure. So we are um we are available in theaters and on demand starting December 2nd. Uh so we're doing a day and date release. So we are going to be um we're screening in 23 or 24 markets around the country. Uh, we just got word today that uh they're adding some more markets for us, which is fantastic. We're starting with five markets on December 2nd, uh, LA, New York, San Francisco, Florida, and Rhode Island, and Texas. And then we are expanding on December 8th to other markets, Massachusetts and Maine, and all that kind of stuff. In addition to the theaters that we're available in, however, we're also available on iTunes, we'll be available on Amazon Prime, we're gonna be available on demand. So that's like Comcast and and different cable services. So we're available uh in a number of different places.
James Duke:Um and that's all and that's all on uh so the streaming um will be available at the same time as the theater.
SPEAKER_04:No, streaming is a separate deal.
James Duke:Or sorry, not streaming, but what you but the on demand that's all yeah, December 2nd.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, December 2nd for for on demand streaming. Uh, we have a separate deal for streaming that uh we have, but we are not announcing yet, due to our distributor uh wanting us to hold off on that. So we're gonna announce that separately, but uh but yeah, we're available on demand sorry, December 2nd.
James Duke:Okay, so this weekend, December 2nd, they can go out and hear if you're if you're hearing this the week that it comes out, uh this weekend, December 2nd. And where can they go to where can they find if it's playing in their area? Is there a website?
SPEAKER_04:Um, there isn't a website per se. We're announcing stuff for our social media so they can follow what's what remains film uh at what remainsfilm on Instagram. And uh we're we're rolling out our uh our theatrical locations uh over the next uh couple of days. So you know it's funny with with uh social media and all that stuff, it's it's almost kind of like like I think we're I think someone's trying to build us a website, but I I don't tend to go to websites for like information anymore. It's all social media. So so somebody was like, well, build your website. It's like okay, great. Well you uh send information out by carrier pigeon as well. Like I feel like it's you know, I just have I just have no idea. I mean, I th I'm assuming that like Fandango and all that stuff will have us, uh have us as well.
James Duke:So so yeah, so so there is no www dot backslash semicolon dash. Uh although it actually but it's what remains at what remains on Instagram is the best way they can uh they can find the information.
SPEAKER_03:At what remains film.
James Duke:At what remains film, sorry, got it at what remains film on Instagram. I'll I'll put it also. Uh people listening, you can look at the links that I'll attach to this podcast as well.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you.
James Duke:Um, very cool. So that's I wanted to spend time talking about this film. Congratulations, my friend. I have seen it. Um uh I had the privilege of seeing it at the world premiere you premiere.
SPEAKER_04:You were there, you were there in your night announcer voice. Oh, here we here we are at the theater, coming to the theater now. Oh, is the star of the movie, the big star of the film, Chris Williams, ladies and gentlemen. That's that was Jimmy just off in the corner uh announcing it uh until the theater owner came over and told him, Please stop. There's there's no microphone.
James Duke:Um we'll talk about a little bit of that whole kind of fun night, that uh awesome film festival. But um let's uh let's take a few steps back and let's just introduce people a little bit to people who don't already know you. Um so you're a you're a writer, director, producer, you've been working in the business. Um what got you started in uh filmmaking? Was it was it something that as a kid you just um uh you were just obsessed with movies? Was it was it something later in life? What got you started? By the way, the funny thing is with this conversation, Nathan and I have been such close friends for so long. I already know the answer to these questions. I already know these questions. So do I have to play like I don't know the answer to these questions? But yeah, so Nathan, tell my tell my audience. It says here Scoggins. Is that am I pronouncing it right?
SPEAKER_03:Scoggins, is that what it is?
James Duke:That's that's exactly right.
SPEAKER_04:This is but this is gonna be a three-hour podcast that it's just gonna be you and me riffing.
James Duke:Yeah, tell me, but seriously, tell our audience a little bit about kind of where where where you first kind of maybe fell in love with film and decided this is what I want to do for a living.
SPEAKER_04:So um, so I grew up in Rhode Island, and uh Rhode Island is a very small state. Um, it's the state that you, you know, if you if if if you were a kid and you were like asleep while your parents were driving along the east coast, you could like fall asleep in Massachusetts, wake up in Connecticut, and you wouldn't have missed anything. Like Rhode Island is like it's like the 45-minute pass-through state. And and that's not to diminish Rhode Island at all. It's just it's a small, it's a small state. It's a small, it's a small part of the country. And and you know, growing up on Rhode Island, uh if you said that you wanted to go to Hollywood, it was like saying you want to go to Mars. It just sounded kind of crazy, you know. Um, but I had a sort of unique childhood. I grew up homeschooled, and I grew up homeschooled. Um, I was really smart for my age, so I read a lot. And and uh and I noticed that there was this thing that came every week in the newspaper that talked all about other movies. And because I had read everything else in the house, except for my dad's systematic theology book, which to this day I I have it uh somewhere, but I haven't read it. I was like, what else can I read? And so I started reading the TV guide and I started reading about all these movies and all this kind of stuff. And that was right around the dawn of the VCR age. Um, and so my parents started renting a VCR and renting VHS tapes. And my parents started showing me, you know, I mean, I remember my mom, I remember saying that I wanted to watch like a Superman movie. And my mom was like, Well, if you're gonna watch Superman with Gene Hackman, you should really watch Hoosiers with Gene Hackman. And so she made me watch Hoosiers before I could watch Superman 4 or whatever it was. And and when my mom found out that I loved Empire Strikes Back, which was written by Larry Kazden, she said, Oh, well, if you really like Larry Kazden's movies, you should watch The Accidental Tourist. I was 11, by the way, when these things were happening. So so I had this, I so I had this, I had the chance to tell Larry that a couple of years ago at an at an event, and he was like, Your parents were weird. I said, Yes, they were. Um, but but I think, you know, I mean, like a lot of kids of a certain age, you know, I grew up with the Star Wars movies, but I was aware of who George Lucas was, and I was aware that he was a writer, and and so I was fascinated by that. And so I started watching these movies, but paying attention to who was writing them. And so, you know, I was familiar with George Lucas, I was familiar with Steven Spielberg, I was familiar with some of these writers and filmmakers, um, as I just kind of watched movies. I mean, we would rent movies all the time from our local blockbuster or whatever, every night or every other night. And so I just kind of started immersing myself in movies, but still it sounded like, you know, that's not a thing for me to do. But I did have this youth theater that I was involved with where I got to be involved with plays. And and this youth theater, um, you didn't just act in plays, you wrote them, you directed them, you produced them, you were like the, you know, the the the lighting person for them, you were the concession seller, you were the usher. It was this very immersive thing. And so I kind of got this sense uh from that theater that like there were things that like like you could do this somehow, but it it didn't seem like a viable thing. And so I went to college, um, but I went to college and I went to a great school, Wesley University in Middletown, Connecticut, which had a great film program. And it was there that I really fell in love with movies, not just as entertainment, but also as art. I still remember watching The Searchers. And we had this, we had this film print, I think, that we that we screened of it, and it was ju it just blew my mind um in terms of what it was and what it could do, and what John Ford was doing with with his camera. And so I just fell in love, and so I started gobbling up whatever film classes I could take. So taking classes on Frank Borsagi and taking classes on documentaries and taking classes on the history of cinema and all this stuff, I just was immersed. Um and so it was college when I really fell in love with it. And I happened to go, Wesley happened to be a place where a number of very successful film owners have graduated from. Fleischer graduated from Wesleyan and Michael Bay and Kiva Goldsman and Joss Whedon and Rick Nasita, and a number of people, some of whom I've I've subsequently become friends with. Um and so it was just so Wesleyan kind of was like the next step for me in terms of um discovering the power of film. And especially like I took classes on the war film, I took classes on on genre films, and I became aware of the the ways in which film could say something. You know, John Ford grappling with the history of the Western and the genre of the Western and the searchers, or or you know, looking at unforgiven and looking at the the way that that it that it calls into question the tropes of the Western. I just was fascinated. I was fascinated with it not just because of uh the cinematic power, but the thematic power, the the the ways in which you you can say something in a film, you can say something with images that really matters. And the and the idea, the purity of it as an art form, that it it it's not just purely visual because it's not a painting, it's not just purely audio because that's a radio show, but it but incorporates music, performance, lighting, shot choices, uh frame, like all this stuff. It just I just was blown away and and and felt like oh, I want to do that. And because I went to Westland and we had like Joss Whedon come back and talk to us. We had a Cuba Goldman come back and talk to us, who who met with me when I was a young, uh, young filmmaker just moving out. It felt accessible. And I think that's one of the biggest things is is a filmmaker when it when you when you go like, oh, this is like accessible to me, like I could do this. Um, that became um that became, I think, the thing that really lit lit the fuse was not just that not just the power of Snow, but the the accessibility of it. That you can do this too. Um, for me, that that was that was what really got me excited.
James Duke:And your family uh this was something that they supported? Or was this something that uh did you get, you know, maybe in your home church or family members, did you get the did the eyebrows cock up and people go, What? You want to do what now?
SPEAKER_04:I mean, again, you know, I think I think there were some people who didn't understand it and didn't get it, and especially because my dad was a pastor. And so, you know, when your father's a pastor and he's engaged in overseas missions work and when he's I you know, I learned very early on, not every dad spends the weekend calling the Turkey, the American embassy in Turkey to get, you know, prisoners of conscience out of prison. You know, we didn't not every kid had like Arab sheiks coming through and like stopping your house for dinner. Um, so again, I was a weird kid growing up.
James Duke:And I think when you're kind of I had the I had the iron sheik. Uh I don't know if you remember him, the wrestler. We we we had the iron sheik come through Memphis and he no, I'm just kidding. That was quite a must have been quite a day for you uh when he drove his drove through on his way so by the way, by the way, the the of the three people who listen to this podcast, there's only one of them that gets that WWF reference. That's it. And we know who you are.
SPEAKER_04:Um no, so so so I think when you grow up in that kind of environment, you know, my dad was my dad did a lot of marriage counseling and all that kind of stuff. And so I think a lot of people kind of assumed that I would do the same thing. A lot of people assumed that I would go to Christian college, or a lot of people assumed that I would do do that because you know, because I came to faith from a young age. And so it wasn't outlandish to assume that. But I I I don't know. I think my mom in particular was very much supportive. I remember there was a the the first and only time Rhode Island hosted a screenwriting conference, the entire state hosted a screenwriting conference, and it was like you know, 150 bucks or whatever it was. And my mom said, I'm paying for you and you're gonna go. And and so like you got to hear like Richard Walter from UCLA come in and talk about filmmaking and and and Peter Farrelly and all this kind of stuff. And so I was very fortunate that I did have a supportive family. Um be because and they were kind of supportive, probably in ways that a lot of other people probably weren't. Um, but my parents definitely were, and and in fact, my dad was was more supportive probably than I was at a certain point. You know, I I thought when I was 20 and kind of went through an existential crisis. Um I thought, well, maybe I should go into the ministry, maybe I should do that. And my dad was adamant that I not do that, um, unless someone paid me a lot of money, which he said that'll never happen because no one pays you a lot of money to go into ministry. Um, but but but but he was adamant. And then my father-in-law was also um uh very supportive of me. And it's kind of weird when like, you know, your father-in-law is like, yeah, no, no, go away, go to Hollywood, join the circus, you know, go ahead, take my daughter, and uh maybe you'll make some money. So so I did. The people closest to me were incredibly supportive. And then I and then I did have like, you know, like my pastor Steve Abbott was was very supportive of me. And I actually took up a collection when my wife and I moved out to Hollywood at the church and and they gave us a couple hundred bucks to help us, you know, with gas money and things like that. So so I yeah, I I did have people who were supportive of me. Um, probably, you know, going against the grain of what people maybe thought about Hollywood at that time and maybe even now, but I did. I I was very for you know, if if I hadn't had that, I don't know if I would have done it.
James Duke:That's interesting. I you know, I the it's fascinating to hear the story of people who have been both supported and and not supported. I it's a it's an interesting uh case study, I think, to hear to talk to people. And because there's a um there's a lot about um you know, coming to work in Hollywood and coming to make movies that there is so mythical and misunderstood, and there's just a lot of and there's also a lot of people who have really been hurt, and and and so there's there's there's a lot of good reason for people to have worry and concern.
SPEAKER_04:So uh well that's the thing, and I think I think that I think that to your point, the concern is not unfounded, right? Right. And and I think that the concern, you know, even at a basic level, like how are you going to make money doing this? That is a very real, valid, legitimate concern that people have. And so, and so, you know, I think that a lot of times people, you know, Christians get get stick for, well, you know, Christians think of Hollywood as a Sodom Gomorrah and all the kind of stuff. And I suppose there's an aspect of that that's true, but it it's just hard, you know, it's it's hard to step out in faith, it's hard to do the risky thing. We are risk averse as a people, certainly as we get older. And so the fact that my parents, my dad was 50 and and said, Yeah, go to Hollywood, you know, give it a shot. My dad told me years later, he said, Yeah, I wasn't really sure if you're actually gonna be able to do it. Um, you know, he said it wasn't until I saw you on the set of your first feature, at least these that you and I did together. He said, I saw you handling yourself with like Isaiah Washington and Robert Logan, these big guys, and I thought, oh, maybe my son can do this. Um, and and I was kind of like, I'm gee, I'm glad he didn't tell me that earlier, Dad. That would have been, you know, not great. But you know, so I do think that there was an aspect of people where it's like, hey, I we feel protective and and and it's a risky, it's hard, and it's true. But I'm grateful that they um that they let me be crazy and stupid because I wouldn't be here probably without that support.
James Duke:So you are a for those who don't know you, you are a bit of a uh what we would call a Star Wars fan. Um my wife is a Star Wars fan. Um, I always joke that she gets frustrated, she gets mad. Anytime something with Star Wars happens, people send it to me. They think I'm the big Star Wars fan. And she's like, Why do they keep sending it to you? I'm the Star Wars. And I'm like, I know, I don't go around telling people I'm the big Star Wars fan, but I think it's my proximity to her and you, like I'm between these two huge Star Wars fans. So people just think that I'm I I I like Star Wars, but you and her are diehard fans.
SPEAKER_04:Um, I'd love to be I'm not I'm not saying anything, I'm just saying that I know how to speak a little bit of Shiri Wook, which is of course the language of the Wookiees. Yeah, of course it is, you know, and then and then you have to ask whether you could where you whether you can also speak Thakarin, which is another uh dialect of Wookiee, or whether you could speak uh Shachik, which is another dialect of Wookiee. So I'm not saying that I'm a nerd, I'm just saying, you know, you know, based on whether people can speak uh Shiri Wook or not.
James Duke:Yeah, I I'm listening I'm just glad you're already married with kids because that would be yeah, I kept that I kept that on the DL until after I got married.
SPEAKER_04:Um and then my wife was like, You speak what now?
James Duke:You speak what now?
SPEAKER_04:I'd let that slip um before we got married. I I would not be married.
James Duke:Um tell them your story, tell tell my audience your story of you actually had as a young man, you had an encounter, if you will, with George.
SPEAKER_04:I did. I did. I was not again our local TV guide. You could write in and get like contact info from people. This is obviously the days before the internet, the days before IMDD and all this kind of stuff. And so I noticed that people would write into the local TV guide, and they would like the TV guide would tell them, like, hey, if you want to write to Mr. T, here's his address. So I wrote into my local Providence Journal TV guide and said, Where can I write to George Lucas? I'd like to send a letter. And so they sent me his email, his his mailing address. And so I wrote a letter to George Lucas. I was nine years old. And I wrote a letter to George Lucas because I just started doing youth theater and I was interested. I wanted to let Mr. Lucas know that I was available to audition for a part in an upcoming Star Wars film. I uh I let him know that I thought I would make I would make a great young Han Solo. And I distinctly remember writing in the letter, I probably wouldn't make a great Lando Calvarino. I literally wrote this in the letter. And I get that this is an audio podcast. My the melanin in my skin, um listeners, is not such that I would play.
James Duke:Oh, listen, they knew what color you were when you first started talking about Star Wars.
SPEAKER_03:You didn't have to clarify that.
SPEAKER_04:Uh yes. So I wrote I wrote this letter to George and said, uh, you're welcome. Uh look no further. You found your new young Han Solo. And so, you know, wouldn't you know it? Like six months later, I got a letter back from it's it's literally sitting right here in my office. It was written by Judy Niles, the uh special uh events coordinator for Lucasfilm. Judy, if you're out there and you're listening to this podcast, thank you so much. And she she passed along a letter from George Lucas where where he said, where she reassured me, this is 1987, uh at present there are no plans for future Star Wars films. They have not been precluded or canceled. There are simply no present production plans. But Mr. Lucas, thanks you for your interest in auditioning for a role in one of the upcoming films. I literally have that burned into my brain because when I got it, it was this manila envelope that was so formal with like cardboard backing. And it was my autograph. Uh he included an autograph for me as well as a couple of pictures from the trilogy. And I have it to this day sitting in my in my little office here. And uh, and and and again, it was one of those things that just it closed that gap a little bit for a you know nine-year-old kid that like Hollywood is like you can you can write to the people and they'll they'll write you back sometimes and stuff like that. So I just thought that was that was cool. So, yes, that is uh one of my pride. If if the house burns down, I'm grabbing my Christopher Reeve autograph and my George Lucas autograph. Wife and children, if there's time. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Yeah, yeah.
James Duke:I mean, you know, you've got plenty of kids. What are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_04:I do, I do, I do the ability to make more.
James Duke:That's right. Um, you so when you came out in um I'm trying to remember when you guys came out. What was that 2003?
SPEAKER_04:2002, end of 2002, just the literally 20 years ago.
James Duke:And you guys often you and your wife often uh refer to me as your first friend in Los Angeles. Yes. How quickly, how soon had you guys been out here when we met?
SPEAKER_04:So you and I met. We had been uh well, we we went to Mosaic, uh the church that we're all involved in together. That was like the very first weekend we were in LA. We went to Mosaic and we met you then. And I you and I joke about this. I'm still waiting for you to email me back from that email that I sent you when I ran into you and you said, Oh, yeah, you know, and was like, Oh, you get film movies, you gotta talk to Jimmy Duke, you gotta talk to Jimmy Duke. So I talked to Jimmy Duke, and Jimmy Duke said, Send me an email, let's keep in touch. Never wrote me back. I was lonely, cold. It was you know, LA cold, so it was 80 degrees, but still it was like, I don't know anybody.
James Duke:There's this man, Jimmy Duke, and uh and as I've always told, and as I've always said to you, you should have taken that personally. You should have.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I did, Jimmy. Oh, I did. Um, but we, you know, I think I think my wife, Kate and I knew that coming out here from Rhode Island, not really having built-in community or anything, we had to just like really dive in. And I do think that's whenever Give talks about surviving in LA, it's like you gotta dive in, you gotta dive in community. No one's waiting for you. No one's sitting here going, oh, a script. Gosh, we don't have any of those. You know, everyone's everyone's got their lives, everyone's busy, everyone's so you just have to like dive in. And so, you know, you were one of those people who we just kind of dove in with. Scott Reynolds was another one. Um, you know, there was this like whole sort of Kevin Wilson was another one. There's this whole sort of community of people who we just I don't know if crowbarring your way in is like what we did, but like you just kind of have to get involved. And and so, yeah, you were you were one of those people who, you know, because we we always refer to them as Black Fridays because we got out here and there was a recession on at the time, it was hard to find work. Again, being out here as a writer, I just wrote a script that was a quarter finalist in the nickel fellowship, um, which is like the preeminent sort of fellowship out there for for writers. And, you know, and so I got it, and it meant that I got rejected by really high quality places. Um, and so, you know, I was applying for jobs and applying for work and couldn't find anything. And though those Fridays just got so lonely so fast. And it was uh Friday night November that Kate and I called you, and you were just watching basketball over at over at your house in Pasadena at the time. And we just called and said, Hey, can we come over and hang out? He said, Yeah, you know, you were kind of like baffled that we were calling you. I was like, Yes, you may come over to my house, that sure. Um, and uh, but it was really meaningful for us to do that. And and I think that's that is one of the things that, you know, again, going back to why people go be careful moving out to LA. You know, the hardest thing about LA is the loneliness. Um, it's a very lonely city. It's it's lonely when you're unsuccessful because you feel like you're never going anywhere, but it can be lonely when you're successful too, because a lot of people want to be your friend when you're a success, but they don't necessarily want to be your friend because they're happy for you. They kind of are hoping that you're like gold dust will shake off on them and they can be successful too. And so you you kind of never know where people are coming from relationally. So you you you try to find these ways to be um to have a true, genuine relationship. I still remember a Bible study at your house where you talked about that verse from Proverbs uh faithful are the wounds of a friend, but an enemy multiplies kisses. And we talked about what that means in terms of LA is a place where there's a lot of fake friendships and a lot of people who love everything.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, we love this and we love that.
SPEAKER_04:And it doesn't really mean anything. Um, and it doesn't mean that people aren't genuine, but I think it means that people are just kind of optimistic and want to be positive, but but it means that they operate at a certain level. But when you want someone who's gonna like be there for you in the tough times, you've got to find a different kind of friend, a different kind of friendship. And that's certainly what uh what you became for us, Jim.
James Duke:I want to talk a little bit more about this. You you and I have had lots of conversations about just the culture out here and raise, you know, both of us are married with kids, trying to raise kids, and this we have been not trying, we have been raising kids. Although there are days when it feels like trying. Um but uh it you know, a lot of what you were you're talking about there, I often refer to as you know, that you talk about the California gold rush. Yeah, and I feel like this industry is the California fool's gold rush, where uh people rush out here to pursue dreams, to pursue passions. Some people think God's told them they're supposed to do, you know, whatever. And um, and then you cut to 20 years later and they feel unsuccessful, they feel lost, they've they they maybe had uh family that they're they're divorced, their kids are estranged from them. I mean, you and I have seen some really bad stuff happen, just lives just falling apart. That um, you know, maybe they would have fallen apart if they went to Albuquerque too. I don't know, but but it but but it's dried out in Albuquerque, it's a very dry place, very dry now, yeah. Um, but but they but it does feel like a unique thing that happens here in Los Angeles, what you were talking about. The way we're spread out here, the way people can can maybe sometimes be disingenuous and and use people for not necessarily for relationships, but but and yet, having said that, there are so many wonderful things about being here. I mean, beautiful things, beautiful people, beautiful churches, like so many wonderful opportunities. And so I'm curious because you do you we've talked about this a lot. You try to help a lot of people when they're considering working in the business. What do you what is some of the key advice that uh if if there are people listening to this podcast right now and they're considering um maybe making a move out here? Uh they're they're they're interested in working in film, but they have questions. They're like, can I can I can I find a spouse out there? Can I raise kids out there? Can I um will I will I quote unquote lose my soul out there? Can and then even on the practical level, Nathan, do they do they have to come here still? Or could they go to Atlanta instead or someplace else? What are what's your thoughts and advice for those people?
SPEAKER_04:You know, I think the hard thing about LA is that anything is possible, right? Can can you can people do stuff? Absolutely. I mean, people, you know, people get discovered all the time, people get people get found all the time. You know, all these things can happen. I think the hard thing is that certainly as Christians, we can um confuse can with will, right? And and and and and that's certainly true not just of Christians, but of but of all artists. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna move out to California, I'm gonna get discovered too, because um, because that's what happens, you know. And and it's interesting because I think a lot of times people will come out to LA um captivated by the image, and then 20 years later, they're burned out on it and they hate the image. And the reality is that the image never promised them anything. Like they are a victim of expect their own expectations. And you know, my friend Corey Pollard, who produced What Remains With Me, we talk about all the time the challenge of uh living with expectation, uh living with anticipation, but not expectation. And and how do you anticipate that anything good could happen while at the same time not expecting it? Because, you know, as as a pastor once said to us, a lot of times people resent a Jesus who never promised them what they wanted him to promise them. And I think that's a danger. And so I think that, you know, I have to work really hard to manage my expectations all the time of certain projects. And sometimes that means that I can come across as a little bit cynical. But as Ralph Winter, my my friend and mentor, and and you know, you know Ralph as well, um, has said, you know, I keep my expectations low and I'm rarely disappointed. And and I've had people who like, you know, will come up to you after a talk or whatever and say, wow, you sound kind of cynical. It's like, not really. I don't think I am. I I've just been I've just been burned enough times or have had enough things not go that I kind of know what to expect of this. And so I think that that if you're if you're you know, if you're coming out here or if you're wanting to engage in a creative endeavor at all, it's hard. I mean, you know, we've all heard the the statistics that there are more NBA players and professional athletes than there are professionals working in Hollywood. Um, the odds are long. The average writing career lasts five years professionally. Scott Derrickson says that the town is designed to squeeze you out. You've got to find ways to stay in. It takes a resilience. There was a great book that I read a couple years ago called Talent is Overrated that talks about how the true measure of someone's professional success is not their talent, it's their grit. Are they willing to just stick it out and hold on? And I think the thing that you and I have always thought through is my grit for this stronger than my grit for my family, stronger than my grit for my faith, stronger than my grit for everything else. And if that's the case, then my then it's misplaced. Then I think my grit is misplaced. And I think that a lot of people will sometimes collapse because their expectations outstrip the reality. Or they had far more grit and tenacity for a job or a dream than they had for the calling that God had given them. And maybe that sounds judgmental for friends of mine who who have experienced professional success and have lost their families along the way. But that's just a math I'm not willing to engage in. Um, because I think that that loss will ultimately is ultimately a loss of long division. And so I think that, you know, um yeah, LA is still the place where relationships happen, connections happen. I'm in the middle of promoting my film that's coming out, and I I've got a ton of people who I know in LA, hundreds of people who I know in LA who are still here in LA and who are working as executives, working as agents, working as as producers, working as whatever. Like there's just this concentration of people here that makes it easier in other places. I know friends who live in Austin, I know friends who live in in Atlanta, I know friends who live in some of these other places, and it's harder there because there isn't quite the concentration in LA of that that there are in LA. Um, so I do think that it's valuable being here, at the very least, getting started. But I do think that you have to have this gut check all the time of where does your heart really lie? You know, Jesus says where your treasure is, there your heart is also. Is your is your treasure in career success? Is your treasure in um you know getting a job on a s at a studio? Is your treasure in all these other things? Because if that's it, it's gonna fade. And and and and the cost to your family is not a cost I'm willing to make.
James Duke:And it's a cost that doesn't get um counted or measured enough.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
James Duke:And um, I wish more people would just be upfront and honest about the cost that um you know, I've often said that this town wars against healthy relationships. Yeah, that's true. It's set up, it's designed, the the the way in which the industry and and even just Los Angeles, because you have the industry, but then you also have Los Angeles and how it's spread out, it is, and it and it um by their natures, they they the way things are set up in in both the business and this town is a war against healthy relationships, and you have to be so prepared for that. And that's one of the things we try to communicate to people, yeah, obviously, with Act One, and and but but it is uh it is something that I wish we would talk about more and just being prepared, and and and and I use these words, and I and I know you do the same thing. It's not about being cynical, it's about being honest, it's about being transparent, and we just want people to have all the information, like have all the information so that you can um um make make decisions based on all the all the correct data you can possibly get your hands on, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and I think I think you're absolutely right, and and I think part of the reason why the town wars against healthy relationships is because we are dealing with a game that we are told is a zero-sum game, which is that you know, there's a limited amount of success, there's a limited amount of people who can experience that success, and part of this reinforced by the business that we're in, right? Studios only release so many movies, um, distributors only are going to release so many films, there's only so much out there that the marketplace can handle in terms of content. There's a limited amount of dollars that people are going to spend on content. And so you're fighting and you're competing with each other for this stuff. And so even believers can buy into the competitive stuff. And in order for me to, it's and and then there's also this like competition for status, right? Um, if I've made it, then I am somebody. And then you can kind of get into this weird kind of gatekeeping thing where it's like, well, I'm in, but you're not, and I want to make sure that you know that you're not because I experienced success. And and that can be dangerous. And then there's this weird like envy thing that we can fall into as believers where, you know, I'm envious because that thing happened for them and this thing didn't happen for me. And I've had people call me or email me and tell me, well, I thought I was the one that was gonna be working with Ralph Winter, or I thought I was the one that this was gonna happen to. And and that becomes weird, you know, because I I don't know how to have that conversation. I've always kind of looked at at, you know, if someone else has success, it's like, oh, well, that's because like I can't tell your story. I I I couldn't write that script. I couldn't do that thing. That's that's not for me. But but it's a constant challenge, I think, to have to remember that. Like if someone's experiencing something, that's for them. That's not for me. So their success doesn't rob me of something because that that wasn't for me. And I think that when we have a faith that lets us know that like God is ordering our steps, it means that I can go like, that's for them, that's not for me. And that's okay. But I think that's hard. And I think the world kind of wars against that. And then you also have the weird kind of thing that happens where it the the that Schadenfreud idea of uh, you know, I can only be pleased when you are not doing well. Because that's a whole other thing that is that happens in town too, where it's like we take delight in people's failure, and you go, like, well, that's not great either. So it is, there's all these forces that I think you know extend out of the business that we're in. And it's not it's none of that is meant to be a criticism of the business. I think it's it's just human nature. Carl Gottlieb, uh, the writer of Jaws, once said that filmmaking exposes all of your neuroses. And I think that you're right. There's something that happens when, you know, with the white hot light of Hollywood that exposes our brokenness. And I and I think that's why, you know, just because I call myself a Christian doesn't mean that I get a pass. I need to be constantly, like the scripture says, working out my salvation with fear and trembling, because I don't want to be that person who is envious of someone else's success. I want to be able to be excited for someone else's success. I think that's something that you do really well, Jimmy, um, is be excited for your friend's success. I don't want to be that person that takes joy when someone is falling. Um, I don't, you know, I don't want to be that person that's wondering why I didn't get whatever, you know, and and and so I think that yeah, all those things war on us. And I think that's why we need a savior. That's why we need community, that's why we need faith.
James Duke:That's good. That's really good. Yeah, I always say when you when you hear good news from a person that you love, from a friend, a family, someone you love, and your emotional state. It either it either fills up like a balloon and you become elated for the person, or you deflate. And and based on what happens when you first initially hear the news, you better check your heart. You know, like you need to be honest and cognizant of the fact that, okay, wait a second, my heart didn't fill up and I didn't it with elation. Instead, it deflated. Why? What is it? What am I why am I not happy for someone who I clearly should be happy for? And that's something that I think as artists, um, we have to be careful of. We have to constantly kind of check our check our spirits with those things. We have to be uh cognizant of the fact that that we you know we can we can be the very things that we are saying other people are struggling with. It's like these are our struggles too, and we got to be aware of those things.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and I think I think too, you know, it's just being honest, right? Like I, you know, my my my dear friend Tobias Oconis had two movies open within six weeks of each other a couple of years ago, uh Five Feet Apart and Curse of La Lorona. And and and both of those were were in theaters. And then Grant Nieoporti, who you know you know as well, had his movie The Breakthrough, that came out in movie theaters as well. I went to all those movies, you know, in the movie theaters to support my friends. I was so excited for them and so happy for them because this this business is so hard. Like like Derrickson says, it squeezes you out. You gotta find a way to stay in. And and if you can stay in, and especially if you are someone who has your life centered and who is able to navigate this without losing your mind, it's like you want to affirm that. And so I'm I'm excited for you know, my friends Grant and Tobias and and you know, and other guys that I know, Mark Freiberger and and yourself, and whenever any of us kind of have something good happen, Kevin Wilson, you know, it's like you want to be excited for those guys because it's hard, man. It is it's a hard slog. Yeah. Um, you are I think very unless the movies are terrible. If the movies are terrible, like you shouldn't be excited for that. We shouldn't what you gonna do.
James Duke:It is what it is. What are you gonna do? Uh okay, so you you are someone who I've always admired in your ability to um um well, I would call you a discipler, Nathan. You are someone who you are very good in taking time with people to build them up, edify them, challenge them, encourage them. And I I want to talk a little bit about that. Um being out here working in the business, um, the ups and downs that uh you've had, um, trying to live life as authentically as possible with other people and encouraging them. I'm just curious, Nathan. Uh, let's let's look a little bit at a glimpse into kind of your spiritual life. And um, because I know it actually connects to your creative journey. Um what how do you um how do you fill your days? I mean, you are you're incredibly busy, you have a wife and kids, as we mentioned earlier, a beautiful family, um, and you do a lot of different um projects, you got a lot of stuff going on, and you're investing in people constantly. So, what does a day look like for you in terms of when you are down? Um uh how do you pull yourself back up? Um, what does time with God look like for you? I'm just curious for the audience. Um as you go out and pour yourself out into other people, um, what do you pour and how how do you allow yourself to be poured into so that you can be an instrument of grace and love and truth to other people?
SPEAKER_04:Jimmy, I I take a lot of solace in the music of you too, just constant immersion in Bono's words and music. Just that's just where it that's just where it flows, man. It's just I'm I'm but the vessel for Bono's music. It's it's incredible.
James Duke:Um by the way, they they also know what the melon melon, the color of your skin is now.
SPEAKER_04:It's a it's a giveaway. It's a bit of a giveaway. It's a bit of a giveaway. Um, you know, I heard a really good talk shortly after my wife and I moved to LA. I've told you the story before, about the word submission. And and the word submission has always been used, or growing up, I heard it used a lot as a as a weapon against wives. And and uh the talk was all about how the word submission means to come under a mission. And the challenge in the talk was for husbands to have a mission big enough for other people to come under. And and I was really convicted, it was that opening weekend in LA, and I was really convicted that if if I was here just to pursue my own filmmaking dreams, it was not a big enough mission. Um, right around that same time, I read uh um Rick Warren's book, Purpose Driven Life, where he starts starts the book and says it's not about you. It's a it's a line that's echoed in Scott Darkson's movie, Doctor Strange. It's not about you. And and I think that part of how I've been able to kind of endure the slings and narrows, the ups and downs of life in Hollywood for 20 years, is because of what you're saying. Kate and I have have really said we want to invest in people. We want to invest in other people. Because at the end of the day, you know, if my value and my worth is driven by whether a project got a green light, or whether a project got funded, or whether a check came in or whatever it is, it's not gonna be enough. Like that's that's a that's that's a that's a that's just an empty hole. And so, you know, I was discipled by people all through my high school and college years. I started discipling people in my high school and college years. So pouring out into people and investing people, I think there's a little bit of, I don't want to say that it's selfish, but it's a it's a bit of a release valve in that in that I've got somewhere else that I can expend my energy. Um because this is just not enough. So, so yeah, I've been really passionate about mentoring, whether it's you know uh teaching at APU as I've done over the years, teaching at GP Catholic where I've taught over the years, uh speaking at Act One, uh, mentoring, you know, uh uh people coming into town through who find me through different ways or whatever. Kate and I have just really uh said that matters to us. We've we've had you know people who are assistants at agencies who are going through a hard time sleeping our house because they they can't go home for whatever reason. And so I think that that we have tried to create a place where we can be agents of grace for other people. And and I do think that that matters because if all you're doing is just chasing work, you know, that that's just not enough. You know, our work is gonna our work is gonna burn someday, you know. Like Ralph says, you know, someday it's all gonna burn, and what we're gonna have is the quality of our relationships. And and the quality of our relationships, not just in terms of like who is with us right now, but um but also um you know, who's coming behind you, you know, that that that that old that old mentoring that every every every person should have a Paul, a Barnabas, and a Timothy, right? Someone who's going ahead of them, who can who can teach them, uh someone who who's walking beside them, who's a friend who they can share sort of stuff with, and then Tim Timothy, someone behind you that you are investing in. And so I I'm very fortunate. I've been into place, I've been put into places where I have a lot of Timothy's. And and somebody just a year ago, Kate and I were having dinner with a young couple, and they said, you know, uh, they were leaving, and they said, Hey, we just want to know that we really appreciate your time because you have Ralph Winter. Uh, we have you. And that was really meaningful because I don't feel like I'm worthy of that comparison. I'm, you know, Ralph is somebody whose shoes I would gladly tie and have tied uh in a metaphorical way. Um, but I do think that there is a role that we all play in in reproductive leadership and in discipleship and in um in being a lynx in the chain. I still remember you praying, you know, the night that we started a small group in your house. You said we're we're just a link in a chain going back to a room of 12 people who believe they could change the world 2,000 years ago. And that's and so I think that that's what it is. You know, it's like, you know, when Paul says to Timothy, Timothy, what you have, what I have taught you, teach to faithful men who will then teach it. You know, and and that's where a lot of my that is where a lot of my sense of worth comes from, my sense of of validation comes from knowing that I am part of a legacy and I need to pay that legacy forward.
James Duke:Gosh, I love it when you quote me. I sound so wise. I don't remember any of this stuff. That's one of the things I you are you are the I always joke, like my wife is the memory of our family, and you are the memory of our relationship. You have all these memories of things. Um, one of them is um one of the greatest highlights of my life was when you and I sat down one day and we decided to make a movie together. Yes. And this was now, was this when this is where I need your help memory-wise. Now, was this in 2006? When did we first talk about making the least of these?
SPEAKER_04:We talked about it at Christmas time 2005. I had just flown back from Tampa. Uh, at the end of that year, I had just been in uh Georgia for two weeks on a writing fellowship. It's the first time that someone had optioned a script of mine. And so I had been there for two weeks working with that group. And then I went to Tampa and with my father-in-law, and my father and and I the script of mine originally called Parker, it became then it be called was called at Allentide and it had gone through all these things. Um, and then eventually, you know, it had gotten enough attention that my father-in-law said, 'What do you, what's your big dream for 2006?' I said, I want to make a movie, I want to make a feature. And he said, Well, do you want to meet some people who could make that happen? I said, Yes. And so he introduced me to some well-to-do people that he knew that were looking to invest in films. And then I flew back from that. We went to Disneyland together with our wives. And you and I spent the whole day uh talking about the script and talking about the opportunity and talking about what we would do and talking about how we would do it. And I distinctly remember because we were in the Mr. Toad ride, and somebody in front of us handed us his card because he was an actor. And he said, You guys really sound like you're going to do this. I would love to be a part of this. Here's my card. And I went only at Disneyland.
James Duke:And that guy's name was Isaiah Washington.
SPEAKER_04:And so, yeah, and so it was it was end of 2005. It took us a little longer than we had hoped, um, because it took us a little while longer than we hoped to to put the money together. But yeah, you know, a year and a half after we said we were gonna make a movie together, we did it. We were we were standing on the set of the least of these. And that was uh that was a pretty remarkable, uh, that was a pretty remarkable, pretty remarkable thing.
James Duke:It was. And and you know what's fun about it, Nathan, is I I remember you and I having conversations like we would go to some of these events in Hollywood and we would meet Byola Media Conference. Yeah, and we would meet people who um, God bless them, you know, they they were unhappy, you know, some people. I'm gonna tell my, you know, most, but but we you and I we we would meet these some of these individuals, they were unhappy and they were maybe older, and so they were grumpy, and and and they would always talk about um what they wanted to do because they never they never actually made anything. And I remember you and I on more than one occasion looking at each other, and we said, you know what we don't want to be? We don't want to be those guys where we're we're looking back on our life and we're saying woulda, shoulda, coulda. And and I remember that being one of the driving forces for us to uh to make the least of these was we wanted to if if we if we could, we should. That was kind of what we wanted to do.
SPEAKER_04:Remember how young we were, Jimmy? I was 27, I think, and uh and we already felt like the the clock was ticking. Yep. Um and so you know, I remember being like 29 on the set of least of these, and and and feeling like I I caught up to myself. And and and and and that's where you know I do think that there is a value in living in LA, and that when there are people around you getting after it, yep, there is that feeling of like, okay, I here I gotta go, like I gotta keep doing this, you know?
James Duke:And that is the number one thing that people who move away tell me. Yeah, the number one thing that creatives who who live in Los Angeles and then leave, the number one thing they always say is they miss, they miss the hustle, they miss the scuttle butt, they miss all the the hey, what are you doing? What are you working on? Pushing people, you know, that the pushing and the prodding uh that you get by living uh out here.
SPEAKER_04:Well, it's the same, it's like the same thing in film school. I tell this to to my film students, it's like, guys, you don't understand you've got access to everything. Once you leave here, it gets harder to do all of this. So do it all now so that and then let it catapult you out of here. Because once you get out, it's harder. And so I do think that that that that you know being in LA, like it just kind of makes you, you know, because I think I think that there is this thing, right? You we Christians talk about this, be a person of your word. And that's not just a Christian thing, but but I do think that there is this idea, certainly from our faith, if you believe it, speak it and and then be held accountable to it. And so, you know, for you and me, we had made short films together, we had done all this stuff, you know, it it we were able to activate each other in terms of our dreams because we were in a place where you could do it. And and then being able to, you know, have Ralph's help, to be able to go over to the Fox slot every day, to be able to do our casting, like it just there's just resources that are here. Um, and and I and that's one of kind of one of the big things that I always tell people when people say, like, what's your advice for for you know, whatever? It's like start talking about what you're gonna do. Like commit to do it, you know, commit to do it. And a lot of people want to play it safe. And I do think there's something about like you know, like Indiana Jones, take that step because you know, but in LA, it's a little easier to take that step than if you're in rural West Virginia or something. Like it's just it's harder. So I do think that that stop, you know, that the that a lot of us as creatives need to stop talking about what we're gonna do someday and just start doing it, you know. And and you and I did. We we we started plotting and planning and pulling together our resource and and the road rose up to meet us. Um, and I think that that that's you know, that if the road doesn't rise up to meet you, that's okay too. Like it's okay to step out of faith and go, nope, this isn't for me. And that's okay, you know, but I think for us it was very um, I think that was very, you know, instructive for us to say to to see that. I can. We can and and we will.
James Duke:And the immortal words of Yoda, do or do not, there is no try. And that is something that I think a lot of creatives we get paralyzed by fear or doubt or insecurities and things like that. And the best solution to creative paralysis is to just do something, just do it, just write the script, just go out with your friends and shoot the movie, just go out and send that email. What whatever it is, like you you you've got to correct, um, or or the only way you can really correct that is not just to sit in it and stew in it, but but to actually just do something. And you might fail, and you probably will fail, and you'll probably fail miserably, and but you have to do something. And as a creative, we have to find a way to exercise our creativity, and you don't do that by just sitting around thinking about it in your mind. You have to actually do something, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think you know, a a quote that comes to mind is um Johan Wolfgang von is it pronounced Goethe? I'm not sure. All right, now you're just making things up. G-O-E-T-A-G. He says, um whatever you whatever you can do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. And there's something to that, like that kind of boldness of of going, I can do this and I'm going to. Like there's there's power in that. And and maybe, you know, my my dad always said, if you're gonna fail, fail big and learn everything you can from it. Yeah. And so I think that you know, our attitude with least of these, I mean, gosh, least of these was was such a learning experience for me in so many ways. And I learned about private placement memorandums and and how to structure investment deals and how to put together business plans. And you know, I'm still learning stuff even now with what remains, in terms of, you know, now we're we're publicizing the movie, we're we're getting the word out, or working with publicists, and we're crafting the narrative of the film. It's like I'm learning so much. Um, but I learned so much on that first film that was just so instructive and informative. And and I would not have learned it if you and I had not shook shaken hands at Disneyland and said, let's go.
James Duke:Oh, I remember negotiating contracts about double bangers and and and uh and you know ADR days. And I remember being on the phone, uh, literally getting chewed out by uh one of the top PR people and having to talk to them and tell them to, and I was chewing them out. I mean, it was just you know, like there's just things you don't you don't get taught until you actually just jump into the water and actually do it. Like you, for instance, so people don't okay. So we made this little film called The Least of These. It was Nathan and I's attempt to make it available on Amazon. We attempted to make a small independent film, and the goal was to you know keep it on the down low. It's a small independent film. We're trying to run and done and get this thing done. And and lo and behold, Nathan. Um this little film, all of a sudden, we find ourselves in entertainment weekly. We find ourselves in, I think it was TV back then that TV Guide still existed. I think TV guide, all these other Entertainment Tonight was there. Yeah. Entertainment tonight came to our set, folks. Entertainment tonight did a I think from our set this little teeny tiny little movie. Yeah. And but there was a reason for that. You want to tell the story about the star of the film and what happened there just briefly?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so it's it's day three of our movie. It's Thursday, I think maybe on June 7th, around 6.10 p.m. And uh our lead actor, Isaiah Washington, I'm in the middle of uh remember this, Jimmy? We're in the middle of a shot. We were we were shooting at um Rebecca Verstratten McSperience house, and we were shooting this scene, and uh he texted me at 6 10, Isaiah did and said, Um, I've just been fired from Gray's Anatomy. Uh, so get ready, everyone will be coming for us.
James Duke:And uh now, now, now hang on, let me back that up though, because you got that text after he told me, because I was standing outside the room when he walked out after getting off the phone with Shonda Rhimes, where Shonda Rhimes fired him. And he literally walks out of the room and he goes, Well, I just got fired. I mean, I was I just looked at him like, I'm sorry, what?
SPEAKER_04:Well, and the irony of that was that we had just shot a scene in that movie where he got fired. And literally his last shot that day was him walking out the back of Rebecca's house into the darkness. And uh suddenly I was sitting there going, Well, life has just imitated art.
James Duke:Yes, life is just imitated art. And what was funny about so he warned us, yeah, he gave us a little bit of a heads up that we might now, of course, because we're two noobs, green as you know, the grass, we we didn't fully understand what this meant until we show up the next morning. I don't know, around 6 a.m., 6 30, 7 a.m., whenever it was we were showing up to set. And I kid you not, I'm gonna guess, I'm bad at guessing numbers, but would you say there was probably about a hundred paparazzi out there? Yeah, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04:Yep, yeah. We I I rolled up and thought there's a lot more people working on our movie today than there was yesterday. And it was it was my assistant on the show, Angela, who said, I think that's paparazzi.
SPEAKER_02:I was like, Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04:I was still kind of like naive. And then I remembered that day because you got on the radio and said, No one talks to them but me. And uh, and it was very clear because they were, I mean, they were they remember they got they got into like our our costume trailer, like they were talking to like to Heather, our costume person, and all this kind of stuff. Like it was it was just kind of crazy what was happening. And you know, I remember Isaiah was was on the set with Allison and he just waved at him and and he put his arm around Allison, like, here's my buddy, and and yeah, it was you know, for me as a first-time director, right? You know, you're you're and for the two of us on that show together, we're we're trying to manage this little over a million dollar project, and you're cutting checks by hand uh every every day. And and uh and and you know, and I'm just trying to, you know, I'm a first-time filmmaker, you know, I've made some short films, it's my first feature. And so you've got we've got all these crew guys who are like, you know, this was a little bit more money than unemployment, but they're all coming to us from like Indiana Jones and all this stuff. And and I'm just feeling the pressure of like making our day and trying to keep everybody in in sync. And then suddenly you've got all these paparazzi calls, you know, that day entertainment weekly called. Like suddenly we had to take a 45-minute break because Entertainment Weekly called and we had to, you know, let Isaiah talk to Entertainment Weekly. Like it was just, you know, to be 29 and be in that kind of a pressure, it was like, this is bizarre. Like we got we got thrown in the deep end, you know, when um Kevin, what's his name from Entertainment Weekly was on the set, and it was just like, what is happening right now?
James Duke:So yeah, it was it was nuts. It was a it was an it was an odd, it was an odd, odd thing. It's something that we knew at the time that this didn't happen, you know, to to movies our size in terms of the kind of publicity and press that we were getting. Um, but um, but even now, when you look back in hindsight, that much more. It's just insane, it's just insane to think the kind of publicity that we got uh on on that. And obviously it was because of the controversial nature of everyone. You can Google people can Google what happened, the controversial nature of him getting fired from from uh Gray's Anatomy. But um the the uh so you know this is the thing, right?
SPEAKER_04:This is this is the thing is that you know, people people a lot of times will look at a life in Hollywood or a career in Hollywood and go, well, how hard can it be? You know, how hard can it be to show up on a set and call action and cut? How hard can it be to be a writer and write, you know, a Batman movie? And the thing is, is that it's is that you know, as as and I quote him several times on this, um Derrickson says talent is like the minimum getting into Hollywood. It's being able to deal with all this other stuff that is where the real challenge lies, you know, and it and look, it's already hard to competently tell a story with a camera. It's already hard to competently tell a story in a script. But like this is part of why LA is so hard, is that there's all this other stuff. And you never know which relationship is gonna be the one that like you don't manage well and it's gonna bite you in the butt, or you know, when are you gonna do something that's like stupid and people can't forgive it? Like it's just all this other stuff is what makes it hard. And and and people don't talk about that. Like the endurance is not just being able to manage the creativity, it's being able to deal with what happens when the paparazzi show up. What happens, you know, what you know, what happens when you know something befalls someone in your crew or your cast, you know, um, you know, even with what remains. Like what happens when you wake up one day and your elite actress isn't there anymore? Like, like all these things become part of the process that people don't talk about, but that is is a huge part of what's uh gonna allow you to stay in or not.
James Duke:Yeah, yep, you know. Well, I think that's a good segue over to um what remains. So you um so take us back um a couple of years ago. Well, I guess you had this idea. So you had the idea for what remains uh for a while. Um do you remember when um when you finally kind of just got it out on on the page? Um when when did you when did you get that first uh first version of the script uh done, would you say?
SPEAKER_04:Well, it's funny, you know, David, you know, you and I have talked about this. David People, the whole story of David People's writing Unforgiven, the fact that he wrote it and sold it to Clint Eastwood in 1982, and Clint said, I'm not old enough to tell this story yet. And 10 years later he decided that he was ready. I do think that there are stories that maybe we want to tell that we don't have the ken to tell yet, that we don't have the ability, that we're not we're not the artist that we need to be to tell that story yet. And Knight Shameland talked about that with the Sixth Sense that he had started writing the Sixth Sense a couple years before, and he just was not the storyteller he needed to be. And so with what remains, I got the story idea for what remains in 2006. I had um Kate and I had a fight in our little apartment in Glendale, and I was upstairs kind of you know cooling off from the fight or whatever, and I had to go out and get something from the store because we're gonna have like Bible study that night or something. And I thought, what would happen if I left tonight and the door didn't lock and someone came home and and murdered my wife? Like what what would I feel? You know, especially having just had this conflict with her, like what what how how horrible would I would I feel? And and so I kind of took that idea and I ruminated on it a little bit. And I remember at Sunday, I was talking with somebody about it very briefly and thinking, you know, there had been a couple stories in the press recently of like people forgiving people at like funerals and and whatever who had done horrible things. And I remember thinking, like, is there a movie in that? And and I but I but I knew that I wanted the movie to start with that. And and I think that you know, a lot of times the failures of of faith-based movies maybe is that they kind of end just you know, to quote Sean Connery from Last Crusade, just when it's getting interesting. You know, the most interesting thing for me in a story is not the religious epiphany of, oh, I should do this noble thing. For me, the really interesting thing about a journey of faith is what happens after you do that noble thing. And then you have to reconcile that with the skin and bones that you're still in. And so I I distinctly remember two different times I tried to sit down and write what remains. And both times they were terrible starts. And I quit after like page 15. And I just went, I am not the writer I need to be yet. And and I did, I just kind of put it away in the back of my brain. The first time I tried was 2010, couldn't crack it. I tried it again in 2014, couldn't crack it. And then in 2018, I pitched a project to the present of Warner Brothers. And this was, and this is kind of like an insight into like the stupidity of the studio system sometimes. Um, my apologies to anyone from the studio system who might be listening, I would love to work with you. Um, but uh great.
James Duke:We lost that one podcast listener. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_04:We're down to two now. My um my manager at the time called me and said, uh, Warner's is taking pitches for this particular project. I don't think they're gonna make the movie, but I think you should go in and have the meeting. But you got to crack a thing. And so I spent a month and a half cracking this pitch and and really got it down to an art and like went in and pitched, pitched my heart out and pitched the president and you know, his right-hand guy, got to the end and they said, Great story, well told. And I went, darn it. Except I didn't say darn it and kept it in my brain. But uh was like that's a bad sign. Because whenever you hear, whenever you go into a pitch, as soon as somebody says well told, you you know it's death. Like it's dead. Like it's the worst compliment they can pay you. And so, but I, you know, but but but but all you have is hope. So my manager, you know, for the next month called and and then they they eventually said, uh, yeah, we're not making this movie. Um and and Jeff said, You're going with another writer. He they said, No, no, we're just not doing the project. And this is like what studios will do. They'll like, you know, do this thing, and then they like they waste everybody's time, they waste their own time, whatever. And I was so frustrated. And Kate said, What would you write if you didn't have to go through that experience again? What would you write that was just for you? And I knew exactly what I would write. And and and by that time, it had been four or five years from the last time I tried to crack what remained. It had been 10 years from when I first had the germ of the idea. And I sat down and it flowed out of me in six weeks. Um, and first I pitched out to a bunch of my friends, to Scott Teams and Chris Riley and Dean Bitaley, and my wife, and and and and several, you know, Claire Sarah, and and they all said, you should write that story. And then I did, and I wrote it, and then I gave it to them all again and said, uh, surely I can't make this, right? And they all said, Of course you should. Don't call me Shirley. Um and and then I sent it to, and then I reached out to a bunch of my friends. I reached out to to Cory Pollard and I reached out to some other friends and said, Would you would you want to make a movie with me? And they all said yes. And I and I I do think that's another reason why living in LA is a good thing because you're just around people who can help you do it and who can do things that you can't, and who can help you do things at a quality that you can't. Corey Pollard is a top-of-the-line first television first AD who wanted to transition into producing. You know, um, Brandon Lapard, who I ultimately wasn't able to work with on this one, but he's a great DP. I worked with him on a music video that I did. William Armstrong, who I wasn't able to work with on this one ultimately, but he's a great production designer. Like you have all these resources that can just kind of help pull things in. And so, you know, you know, and and one of the other reasons why I think it's valuable to be in LA is that there's a there's just an expectation of quality that people have, where people know, you know, Corey knows the difference between a good script and a bad script. Brandon knows the difference between a good script and a brad bad script. And so I asked my friends if they would come along the journey with me, and they all said yes. And and then I gave it to Ralph. And Ralph read it over the Christmas holiday, and January six uh January 2nd, we went over to his house. Kate and I did have dinner with him and his wife Judy, and we had wine, a not altogether uncommon experience for for the four of us when we get together. And at 10:30 that night, he asked me two questions about the script and said, I'm in, I'll produce this for you. And then, and then, you know, Kellen Lutz was my first and only choice for Troy because I'd known Kellen for a long time and I knew that Kellen would be right for it. And and I sent it to Kellen and Kellen said yes, and I was able to say, Hey, I'm working with Ralph on it. And so that was sort of a creative uh barometer for him. And then we, you know, we he and I got together at Sundance and we talked about it some more with Ralph. And so it just kind of snowballed, but it but it it yeah, it it came together very quickly. It was a hundred-page first draft that turned into an 80-page final draft. And the only thing that really changed was that I took a bunch of stuff out. But it it it changed very little from that first draft in in October of 2018.
James Duke:Wow. So you find yourself connecting to uh some investors out of Texas, and you find yourself shooting it in Texas by the time so so see 2018, January 2000. Was it January 2018 or January 2019? I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_04:19.
James Duke:19 was when Ralph said so January 2019, and then you find yourself shooting when when did you start when did you start shooting?
SPEAKER_04:September of 2021.
James Duke:Okay, so um, which you know, uh for people who are listening to this podcast, that I know I know people might think, well, that's a couple years, that's like light speed in this business. Um, so you find yourself shooting in Texas, and you you come up with a really interesting strategy because uh you are um one of the things that you do is you you teach uh directing and filmmaking at at this um small um Catholic school in the San Diego area, um and you came up with the idea of of uh using the students and and and an alumni to talk a little bit about that, kind of like your sh you guys' strategy of how you wanted to shoot this film in Texas.
SPEAKER_04:So, yeah, so a couple of pieces kind of came together simultaneously. You know, when my wife said, What would you write if you didn't have to ask permission? It was like, what would you love to write? And and this story came. And then the next question very easily was, Well, who would you love to work with? And I do think that, you know, I like to lead relationally. Uh, relational leadership is very important to me. It's hard on a film crew where you've got 60, 80 people, you don't know them, you don't know their in and outs, they don't know you, you're trying to figure each other out. By the end of your time shooting, you're just maybe starting to get to know each other, and you're doing it in this pressure cooker environment where you're not really getting to know each other at your best. A lot of times you're getting each other at your worst, and you're trying to minimize, minimize that. Um, so I knew that I that that that you know, Ralph had said on least of these, he had said, cast as well behind the scenes as you do in front of the camera. And so for me, it was really important that who I was collaborating with was as important as the project on which I was collaborating. And because I've I've worked down in San Diego with these film students, it's like I knew how hard they were working, I know how dedicated they were, and I knew how hungry they were and how eager they were to want to work on a project. Um there had been a trend about a decade ago where a bunch of film schools decided to make feature films at the film school. Um, and and some colleges that you and I know had done it. And I'm not convinced that that is necessarily the best way to make a movie because a lot of times you're asking film students to step in and be the DP and be the production heads and be the department heads and do everything. And to me, that can sometimes feel a little exploitative, and it doesn't necessarily get necessarily the best results because you're learning as opposed to actually having mastered your craft. And filmmaking is a craft. So I knew that I didn't want to do something like that. And I've been a part of a project that had had had that as a working environment, and it just was it just was so so hard on everybody. But I really liked the idea of trying to create an environment where I could hire, I could bring in my my professional friends and I could crew them up with young filmmakers eager to get their first start. And so while I knew that I didn't want this to be like shot by students in terms of like having it be a DP, I knew that, you know, there would be like three or four or five students who would be eager to be camera PAs on a big project. And so what I was able to do was leverage my relationships with the school, where we basically, you know, we we we sort of uh created a space where students could get hired onto the show. And part of that was me working with Corey Pollard, Corey, our you know, my my producer on the film, uh, is really big into workplace development, trying to develop and train and equip filmmakers and do all this stuff. And so it was kind of Kismet in the sense that he really wanted to sort of uh try out this workforce development process of training people. And I had this sort of like group of about 20, 22 kids who were willing to work on the project because it was me, who I knew, who I knew their skill sets, and I could kind of place them in good positions. And so it kind of worked out serendipitously. And so as a result, our costume department, our you know, our GE department, our camera department, production designers, they were all professionals who were able to mentor and train and work with some of the younger members of the crew. And and some of these relationships, you know, like Corey Cast, who was our AD, I had actually taught Corey like seven or eight years ago. And Corey had subsequently moved to LA and had started on the assistant directing track. And so he wound up being our first AD on our show. He did a great job for us. And so some of these people who I knew, I was able to just kind of pull in relationally. And the school was very clear. They were like, we want no part of this project. We we we did this once, we we don't want to do it again. It was really hard. Um, but they did sit up and take notice, and now they've decided to to go and do and do more of that, which I think is great. Um, and and and do like a feature film project program again where they where they put students to the paces. But for me, it was like I really wanted this to be a hybrid of you know older, established, experienced artists who could mentor and train new young storytellers. And and that was kind of the ethos that we had. And so, you know, we they came to Texas and we paid them and we paid them a fair wage and we took care of them and looked out for them, and and and it really became this kind of really unique, sort of like I don't want to call it camp because it was very much a professional environment, but it was it was it was fun, it was kind of like what you want filmmaking to be.
James Duke:Yeah, that's great. I I um I love the heart behind what you're describing and having seen the film and seen the quality. Um that you guys accomplished, I think people should set up and take notice for I think it's a I think it's a I think it's a really um um really cool process that you guys established.
SPEAKER_04:Um well and and you know part of that was it it wouldn't have happened without the support of of Sharpened Iron Studios, who was our studio financier coming out of Texas. And part of how that happened was Ralph called me. He was in Tokyo shooting a project for Michael Mann, and he called me in November and said, Hey, we've got our movies set in Texas, right? I said, Yeah, he said, Well, you know, I've met these guys, they've got money, they're they're they're wanting to put together a studio in Texas. Uh, and this was in the fall of 2020. And and and they had, ironically enough, this this studio, Sharp Art Armor Studios, had just formed a relationship with um Amarillo College, based in Amarillo, Texas, to do kind of the same thing. And so they heard that we were going to be doing that, we were trying to create this training program, this mentoring program. They got really excited about it because they want to train and mentor our students coming out of the panhandle. And so even though they weren't able to kind of get resort local resources together for it, it was this kind of cool like mission where our our alignment, we we were, you know, our spirit aligned with their spirit, and and we were able to kind of do what we did with the support of our Texas, of our Texas studio, because we weren't able to do it without them in terms of putting people up and and giving us the studio resources. And I think uh I think Sharper and I was surprised at the sheer amount of printing that we did on a given day with call sheets and shooting schedules and revised call sheets and new drafts of the script, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, so I think they were probably surprised at what we needed. But I think it was a good learning experience for them too, in terms of learning like what it takes to make this go because it it requires a lot.
James Duke:So you both wrote and directed. If I made you choose, which would you choose? Would you choose to if you could only go forward, only writing or only directing, which would you choose in the line? And I am making you choose, by the way.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I know you are. I know you are, I know you are. You know there is something about uh sitting on the set while actors take something that you did and they just elevate it, and then being able to go in the editing room and sit with your editor and craft it, and then to be able to sit with my composer and figure out the musical language of it. And even now, you know, as we're kind of going through the process of press and publicity, I'm really enjoying this process. Um, you know, and and and you know, I got I got a chance, I shot a couple of episodes of a TV show uh this summer for um a show that's gonna uh premiere for Sony uh next year. And again, like to kind of be at the center of this energy, you know, it's kind of like Christmas because you've got all these people doing all this amazing work. And it's all it's like it is, it's like Christmas. You're you you get to sit there and and and be like, wow, all this. And then you got to try to figure out how to like arrange it and hone it, refine it, and all that stuff. And it's it's so fun. Like it's so like you know, the least of these was hard. It was a lot of work. I had a lot of learning to do, I had a lot of growing up to do. I had a lot of I had a lot of humbling that I needed to experience. And Jimmy Duke was part of the that humbling a little bit. Um, but but but I think that what remains and the experience of making what remains, you know, I told my wife every day I would call her at the end of the day and say, I I don't deserve the movie that I'm getting. Like it's so good. And then, you know, the same thing with with the show for Sony this summer to be like, This is, you know, my showrunner came to me at the end of the thing and said, This is this is good television. You just make good television. Like that was very relieving.
James Duke:Um, and the and the interesting thing about that example that you bring up is you know, Lisa These and Wemains, you're directing what you you're you're directing your script, your word. But that TV show, you're directing someone else's words. So you're that is something that that that just gets your just gets your heart pumping. The idea of that's really cool.
SPEAKER_04:Well, and and to be able to kind of interpret something, you know, and again, with with what remains, we we already start out with a pretty spare script, it was 78 pages. The the final movie is 69 pages, um, script wise, because there's just so much that there's so many words that you don't need, you know, when you're when you're kind of on the set, you know this, you've directed it. Like when you're on set and and you go like, oh yeah, a look will do just fine, you know. Um, and and you know, with TV, you you don't really get the chance to to do that. My my showrunner uh said that I could edit my episodes or work with the editor to edit my episodes as long as they didn't cut anything out. Um, so you know, you'd have to be respectful when it's someone else's words that you're messing with. And and so I certainly am aware of that. But but yeah, when when an actor is able to sum up with one look or one beat, you know, a whole line or a whole story, it's just it's amazing. So so I I I loved it. I I really I found myself loving the process of of what remains. And we got to the end of those 17 days in Texas, and there people were so emotional. Um, and one of the things that one of the guys whose experience came up to me and said is, do we have to stop? Like this is this is such a remarkable experience. I don't, I don't want this to be over. Like with with Le City, these I was I was ready for a good long sleep. Um, you know, and and and to and to process what I had needed to learn from that experience because it was a lot. And and that's not to say anything about Lisa D. You made a good little movie, but uh, but I had I I I learned on that one what I needed, I learned that I needed to learn. And with what remains, it was really fun to demonstrate what I learned, not just as a writer, but also um as a filmmaker. I was at a a talk that Sam Wasson just gave a couple of weeks ago. Um, Sam Wasson's a film historian and film film writer, graduated from my college, and he said in his talk, TV aesthetics are different than film aesthetics. And I hadn't really thought about that before, but it's true. Like with TV, it's about coverage. You know, it's I just I just got to get stuff off. With with film, it really is about like how we use the camera and using the camera to tell the story. And and on what remains, I was really able to do that, I think, in a lot of ways. It was fun designing shots, it was fun sort of trying to tell a story with a shot. It was fun trying to figure out okay, how can the shot tell a story? How can the shot convey something? And and that was really fun. And and I, you know, I hope I hope I get the chance to do it again.
James Duke:Well, and you did a I mean, the casting obviously for the film is well, there's I want to touch on this a little bit. The casting is is is so great. Uh, you and I have a friendship with Chress Williams. Yeah. Um, he's so good in the film, and I and it goes a little bit to what you were saying earlier, back when you were talking about how what compels you to film, and you talked about the thematic nature of filmmaking. And Cress's performance, you you created a role. I so I'm not kind of spoiling the movie or giving anything away, but um, you know, it's a it's a small town, it's a small town kind of crime thriller, um, and um drama and it and Cress's character um is he go he he has to um not only solve a a um a literal kind of problem crisis with his son, but he has to solve an existential crisis uh within himself. And and you cast him so well, he does such a good job. I told Chris, man, when he has that beard, he just has such gravity. But yeah um talk a little bit if you can. Obviously, we don't want to give spoilers, but um the film to you is about what it's about doing the right thing and about the cost of doing the right thing. It's about forgiveness and it's about the cost of unforgiveness, yeah, you know, and and what is it about those themes? I mean, you talked earlier about kind of the the impetus for the story, but I'm curious why those themes um why those themes are so important to you, or or or maybe maybe important is not even the right word. Why did why do you think those themes emerged in the process of the creation of this film? And and why are those themes so important to you um as a filmmaker and as a and as a person of faith?
SPEAKER_04:Well, it's funny, Jimmy, because you know, I I didn't actually connect the dots on this until halfway through the editing process with what remains. But if you remember, in Least of These, an iconic scene close to the end of the movie features Andy Lawrence confessing a sin to Isaiah Washington, trying to avoid spoilers for those of you who might want to see what uh Least of These, which is currently available on Amazon by DVD. Um, but Andy Lawrence is delivering this monologue, and he's trying to process what someone said to him before he committed a horrible crime. And he said, You know what that guy told me? I forgive you. And it forces Andy into tears. Uh, Andy Lawrence, a great, great actor, by the way. I love working with that kid, he's so good. Um and that same scene and those same lines reappear halfway through this movie where one character says to another, you know, do you know what this person said to me? I forgive you. Could I do that? Could you? And he says it in that moment asking for forgiveness that he's not going to get. And and I think that all of us probably, if we were honest with ourselves, have things that where we wonder, have I committed the unforgivable sin? Have I have I done something that placed me outside the boundaries of grace? You know, we as a culture, we all want to sing that Lady Gaga song, you know, I'm I'm born this way, that sort of defiant, uh, I'm fine. I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. And I was thinking about this and going, I wonder why we are as a culture so desperate to tell people that we are fine the way we are. And I think it's because at the end of the day, we know there is something wrong with us. And there is something in us that cries out for forgiveness. You know, I'm certainly dealing with this as a father with my children. I need to go to my kids at times and say, I'm sorry, please forgive me. And my children have the right to either say yes or no. And that's scary. But I do think that we are, we live in a culture and a time more than ever where we don't really want to be forgiven because if we if we have to ask for forgiveness, we have to confess that we've done something wrong. And I do think that our Catholic brothers and sisters have something to this, to the idea of confession being a sacrament, that it is sacramental to confess and ask for forgiveness. There is something holy and sacred in that. Um, that all this all of us this talk about unconditional love, so I don't need to apologize for anything. It's like, well, that's not the Jesus that I believe in. Because the Jesus that I believe in said, forgive them, Father. They're out of their minds. They don't know what they're doing. And so I think that that that certainly from a faith perspective, I'm haunted by the need for forgiveness. From a cultural standpoint, I'm fascinated by the audacity of people who say, I don't need forgiveness. You know, I think one of the worst cultural lies that was introduced came from a movie, Love Story, in the 1970s, saying love means never having to say you're sorry. I don't think that's true. I think love means having to say you're sorry every day. Certainly, those of us who are married understand that, or married guys anyway. Um, you know, and as a result, we need forgiveness. And and you know, and it's interesting because what remains, you know, I've gotten a lot of responses from it because we did, we did, we tested it, not like in a formal way, but we sent it out for a lot. And and and some of the biggest pushback I got was from believers, um, who said, you know, that they disagree with the choice that one character makes in the movie, um, because, you know, that's not justice. And I said, well, yeah, but but we have this dichotomy in the scriptures where we have the sense of justice, but we also have the sense of mercy. And and and and and if we believe in anything in our faith, it's that mercy triumphs over justice. It doesn't mean that justice doesn't exist, but it's that mercy must be a stronger force than justice. And mercy starts with the ability to say, I forgive you. And that's not where it ends, but it certainly starts. And so, so I'm I'm I think I'm I'm you know, so so at all those levels I'm I'm fascinated. But I'm also confronted with the fact that daily I need to ask forgiveness from my wife, from my children, from from my friends. I'd gone through a season just before the writing of the movie where I had had to check in with some people who I had sort of fallen out of relationship with and say, is there anything that I did to make this happen? And if so, I'm sorry. And some people accepted it, some people didn't. Um, but there were also some things, not to get too personal, but there were some things in terms of extended family that I had to that God was sort of asking me to confront. And and what's interesting was that the point, the process of writing the movie, I think made me ready for when somebody came to me and said, I need you to forgive me, I'm so sorry. Where I was able to say, I'll be over to your house in 20 minutes, I'll sit with you and I'll cry with you and I'll hold you, and it'll be okay. So I do think that I had personal relationship to the subject matter and personal relationship with the idea of forgiveness. But I think there's also, you know, cultural and uh reasons why forgiveness, I think, matters. Um, and and I think that we as a culture need to take on this notion of what do we forgive? Because we are in a world right now where cancel culture and Twitter and it we we we will we gladly crucify each other. It's interesting as we go sort of more post-Christian in some ways, we're going back to pre-Christian days of of Rome. You know, throw them in the, throw them in the throw them in the Coliseum, let the lions tear at them, you know, and we kind of it's this weird kind of blood sport that we have as a culture that is really troubling. And it it starts, I think, from our unwillingness to forgive people, you know, and it doesn't mean that that you know, the Harvey Weinsteins of the world or whatever don't need to to to answer for their crimes, but what when we when we sort of are gleefully trying to find how we can crucify each other, you know. Uh I I have some friends who are ex-Christian, ex-evangelicals who sure seem to have a lot of righteous anger that they direct at anyone who disagrees with them. And to me, that's just a case of switching teams because now you've just become the monster that you were decrying, and I think that's a problem.
James Duke:Yeah, that's really good, really well said, bro. I've said for a long time now that I think that Jesus' teaching on forgiveness is his hardest teaching. It's his it is his hardest teaching.
SPEAKER_03:How many times? How many times?
James Duke:Yeah, and we and we, you know, in typical, you know, Christian fashion, evangelical churches, we we romanticize everything. Yeah, and so you know, it all just seems so easy to just preach a message or do a Sunday school lesson and just think to yourself, okay. Well, this is what nice. Yeah, isn't that nice? Yes. You know, if someone cuts you off on the road, instead of cussing them out, you know, forgive them and just move on. And I think what your film does is it goes, no, no, no, no, no. Yes, that is that is something we should do, but the idea of forgiveness is a hard teaching. And your film says, we're gonna wrestle with that, we're going to examine it, we're gonna talk about it, and it and you do it in such a it's a such a such a good film, Nathan. You did such a good job. I really hope everyone rushes out to see it opening weekend and downloads it and whatever it bootleg, no, don't bootleg it, but but whatever you gotta do. Uh but um you don't have to bootleg it. I have copies, I'll give them no screen. Um but but uh but uh I I want people to see the film because the film it's a film. So first and foremost, it's it's it's entertaining, but but it but it goes to your greater kind of value for dealing with films that that that deal with themes that are important that we want to talk about, you know, like that that are that that we want to kind of wrestle with. And this is something that I think is uh it's the most here here's one of the best compliments I can give you, right? And I think I I think I told this to you before. It's the most un-Christian Christian film you can see, right?
SPEAKER_04:Well, well, it's interesting because we had a lot of debates about this uh when we were making it. Um, because we we're trying to go, this isn't really a faith-based film. What is this? And it only occurred to me a couple weeks ago when I was doing an interview where I said it's a movie, it's not a faith-based movie, but it is a movie about faith. And I think, and I think that that that that with this film, we really kind of want to, you know, I think a lot of faith-based films should take the take the forgiveness as an assumption, right? Of course he's going to forgive, he's going to wrestle with it, but then he's gonna forgive, and then it's gonna work out. And and I'm really interested in the story of the prodigal son after the prodigal son comes home. And the older brother has to confront the prodigal son coming home. Like, and that's the genius of of Jesus as a storyteller is that he he doesn't let his characters off the hook easily. And and and with this movie, you know, one of the interesting things about it is that I've heard from people who say, Oh, I really don't like Chris's character, but I really like Marcus's character, his son, or I really like Ann's character. Um, like the hardest thing I think when crafting a story is to try to craft a story where every character is right in their own mind, and the audience can go, I agree with her, I agree with him, I agree with him. And and and and as a writer and a storyteller, you've got to kind of go, Well, I agree with all of it, right? You've got to be even-handed in terms of how you do it. And so, and so, you know, the this whole thing of forgiveness, yeah, if forgiveness can't be easy, and we can't make it a flannel breath. And we can't, because as Crest says, you know, when Marcus says, How can you forgive this guy? And Crest says, I can't. You know, it's one of those rare rare moments of honesty in the movie from Crest where he divulges sort of his inner thought process. He says, You know, uh, I forgave him at the funeral thinking I would never have to see him again. But it's another thing to forgive somebody from far away. It's another thing to have to do it every day up close. And and what does that look like as we as you know, the scripture says we're supposed to walk. work out our salvation with fear and trembling, then that means that it is it is a hard, agonizing process, right, of moving from where we've been to where we could be. And I and I I, you know, I don't want us to be lot off the hook easy because because it's easy to to to sort of make um you know Ava Duvernay says that every year we dust off the Martin Luther King bust, we take them out, we put them on the table on Martin Luther King Day and we put them back up on the on the shelf until next year. It's very easy to make these noble things stoic and unrelatable. And I wanted to look at the cost of forgiveness. And I think the movie says the cost of forgiveness is significant. It should be but the cost of unforgiveness is so much greater. Right. And and I think that you know as as Christians a lot of times we settle for easy themes. And and somebody once taught me that you know sometimes uh thematic storytelling is not about choosing the greater of two goods. Sometimes it's just the lesser of two evils. You know and so if this movie is about unforgiveness is evil or unforgiveness can lead to evil then forgiveness however hard it must be is going to be a better choice than than than the alternative because look at what look at where Crest goes because of his willingness to forgive and and look at where Marcus goes. You know but but but but again making it hard you as a writer you want to make your as hard as as possible for your characters you want to put them through the compressor you want to put them through the ringer because I think that's what life does to us. Really you know you look at it at Satan and and God and Job and and and Satan's just trying to figure out how how close can I get to his skin you know and and God's trying to set up these boundary lines of here but no farther. It's like you know um I think John Eldritch says that the the evil one is a um he doesn't fight fair. You know he's not convenient and he doesn't take what we are willing to give.
James Duke:Yeah. So well said Nana I want to end with this um oh we're ending oh boy we're we're wrapping up we can't talk about all the hard stuff we haven't talked about yeah well well they're welcome to come when we're hanging out and come here just you and I talking for you know um but for their sake um I wanna I want to close with this you you you you um you made mention of it earlier in our conversation uh you know we were joking about kind of the craziness that hit us while we were shooting the least of these you experienced something um tragic um after shooting what remains and it's not something that is common in this business and and and in and because it happened um once again you know you've had pop i don't I'm gonna say paparazzi but you've had press and things like that and um so what I'm talking about obviously is your lead actress and haish um she passed away um you were you were already pretty much you hadn't locked picture but you were pretty much done for the most part um no we we we had we had locked picture we were we were actually we we were we were done we were we were okay so you had locked okay we we unlocked it after she passed okay so you'd go through and then over this tragedy strikes yeah and what I I remember I remember you and I kind of processing it and I remember expressing to you at the time that I thought this is something that Nathan is prepared for um I thought to myself God has uniquely prepared Nathan for this and this is not something that you sign up for. This is not like you know hey we're all we're all going to the list and we're going okay God prepare me for this and prepare me for this and this isn't something that you would have ever chosen to be prepared for but I but I will have to say to you my friend I think that over the years um God has developed you into the man that you are today to have prepared you for this moment and I'd love for you just to share just a little bit about this moment that you guys have included at the end of the film um you wrote about it um variety your friend at variety had asked you to write about it can you talk just briefly about this kind of beautiful moment you had with Anne on set that actually got captured on on uh on film can you talk a little bit about that yeah so you know I mean look at the end of the day the reality is that when you're on set you're you're on set to tell a story and and you got to be trying to get the story and you got to be getting your shots and all that kind of stuff and and you know what was great about how Corey produced the movie physically just being on set was that we had a full schedule we never had a rushed schedule and what that meant was that we had we had opportunities to connect we had opportunities to rehearse we had opportunities like we we took things like hour long lunches which is not not common in what we do and it meant that we had moments to connect as people and Anne came to our set open and she came to our set ready to she said on her first day she said just put me where you want me I'm ready to be used and I think that hurt her in some places in her life because when you put yourself out there to be used people will not always use you well and and when she said that I just knew in my heart that she was we were going to work well with her.
SPEAKER_04:We were going to care for her we're gonna look out for her and and we and we did that I think through the whole show. And I think she felt valued I think she felt I think she felt what she hoped for other projects to feel which was listened to and heard and appreciated. And so the the tragedy of her passing is very much connected to the beauty of what we experienced on the set and and where that moment came from on her last day was you know and and and again your job is to get the the stuff done but I think a lot of times we miss moments that I would moments of grace if we're just just focused on getting the job done and we miss the humanity of it. And so I was so grateful grateful that I did not miss this moment of humanity because we were waiting for a plane I said uh be still for the plane and Anne just started singing one particular day be still and know that I am God and I started harmonizing and she she looked at me like with this five year old face and said you know that song I said yeah man I'm a pastor's kid I know that song and so she grabbed me uh after we did the take and said can we do that again for my social media because nothing is real until it's on social media and I still have the video she sent it to me that night and we started talking about music we started talking about songs and she said I love old hymns I love old hymns I said what's your favorite old hymn and she said it is well with my soul and so I recorded myself that night singing It is well with my soul and I sent it to her. And it wasn't until long after we'd rapped I read her autobiography and I read the stories of how she would be locked in a bathroom at six years old and all she would have was the Bible and all she would have were those old hymns and so we kind of fell into this relationship where I knew that music was a gift to her and we had we had one particular day on our one of our off days because I play some guitar and do some worship leading and so we had a bunch of the crew over about 15 folks over the house and we just sang for about an hour and a half it was just beautiful we just sang together and uh and she heard about it and she texted me and said hey on my last day could you have could you gather your choir and have them sing to me my choir yeah these crew hands but I said okay and we'll do that. And so we we were finished shooting her stuff at Victory Tabernacle Church out in Amarillo outskirts of Amarillo and we we wrapped her you know or you wrapped her and then I put my arm around her and I I walked her towards the church she said uh oh Nathan I'm I'm nervous what are you doing you bring me to church I said hey Ann you told me to gather my choir and she said yes yes yes I did and then she scampered into the church like a little girl and I sat at the piano and members of the crew sort of quietly walked in and we just sang Amazing Grace together. And it was so funny was I had forgotten about this but she she wanted to find her phone she wanted someone to bring her phone to her so she could capture it um so she could hold it close to her. And our our behind the scenes team Andrew Koltnik and Lou Myers and Teddy Halloran happened to be there it was totally unplanned but they recorded the whole thing and filmed it and and it was just this like little grace note and you know you can see it in the the footage that people magazine released there's this gasp on her face when I start singing and I heard it and it and my voice breaks slightly as I start singing because the the excitement that she felt hearing those opening notes I don't know it just it broke something I don't know and so we so we did we sang it together and it's a beautiful moment in the movie she she loudly just yes that was the best blessing of all time she says as she as she walks off and and then when she died her agent called me and said I've got a recording of her singing Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah that maybe you could use in the movie. And I said Paul I've got something better and and I look I love me some Leonard Cohen but but but Leonard Cohen I it's a it's it's a song we've heard and so we did my my editor Lonnie Irvin our sound guy Joel Catalan I I got Andrew Colton sent me the footage and I said we have we have to put this in the we have to put at least a portion of this in the credits now. And what's interesting I do think that when people die sometimes they leave you gifts and I do think that you know the movie always ends on a bit has always ended on a bit of an ambiguous note. It's always there's always a note of ambivalence of ambiguity at the end of the movie. And I think the ironic thing is that including a little portion of Amazing Grace now in the end of the credits it just provides a little bit of a grace note at the end of the film a little bit of a lift a little bit of a of a sense of hope it provides a little bit of that emotional catharsis that I think audiences are looking for. And I do think that Anne left me and us with that little gift of she's okay. And uh and I have to say you know it's interesting the press stuff um has been complicated to wade through because you don't want her death to overshadow her life and you don't want her death to overshadow her work. And so it was interesting because when we when people leaked that footage there were some comments on on either Entertainment Weekly or People where somebody said how dare that woman sing about race and that just made me angry because as a Christian I go how can she not and so there might be some people who watch that movie and for whom her reputation makes them go what's she doing?
James Duke:Well I know exactly what she was doing and I know exactly who she met in that event and I know exactly who is calling to her on our set and I know exactly who I think was waiting for her when she went home that's beautiful you know I think it's a great summary of our conversation today because I think the moment of grace that you guys offered to her and in return she offered back to you guys that moment of grace that God provided for all of you in a sense that moment doesn't happen if you guys don't put all the work into getting you to that moment getting you to that place to that opportunity and that's why I believe that you were uniquely created for that time and the fact that you guys built such a communal family oriented set made something like that more possible gave probably made her feel more comfortable gave her that sense of freedom uh in those moments and um uh I think that just goes to the greater ethic that you have and that you've developed as a filmmaker out here bro that um and I just I'm so proud of you and I think it's such a beautiful thing and I really hope that people watch the film and support the film and um it's um at what remains film uh on on Instagram they can see if it's playing either in the theaters um beginning December 2nd um or or they can check it out um online and then um so Nathan I love you buddy this has been awesome I've really enjoyed this conversation and um I think that our audience is gonna get a lot out of this i i always ask my uh guests if uh i can close the podcast by praying for them would you allow me to do that no no i will not i can't imagine i've been waiting for someone i've been waiting for someone to say that and of course it's you yes no it would be uh it'd be an honor uh you know and and and jimmy i just i do just appreciate the time and the chance to connect like this and you know i'm a huge fan of of you and and i think you're just uh you know one of those guys that is uh creating conversations like this and spaces for conversation less doesn't matter you know we don't talk about this stuff enough so thank you for all your leadership and everything you do to spearhead uh so many things like this it's it's so important bro and you've got your own uh goals and things and projects that you're pushing on and working for and I hope that somebody somebody interviewing you so yeah I'll interview myself I'll interview myself so Jimmy it's okay um mutual admiration society I love you bro this is um I just want people to get to know you and know your heart and and obviously know your work and um so yeah this has been great so let me let me let me close this in prayer thank you heavenly father we just thank you or we just pause and stop and thank you and thank you for Nathan and thank you for his friendship and thank you for his love for you and his love for other people and thank you for how you have gifted him with um not only with great talent but with grit and resilience and God I I pray a blessing upon all the work that comes from his hands. God I pray that um that his films and his stories would find their ways into the hearts and minds of audiences all over the world. And God I pray for his family I pray for his wife his his uh beautiful family his daughters God I pray for all of his work both uh inside of this industry and outside of it God I pray that um you would continue to use Nathan in a powerful way um to uh be a blessing and benefit to those around him and uh we love you God thank you for this time today we pray this in Jesus' name and your promise as we stand. Amen. Thank you for listening to the Act One podcast celebrating over 20 years as the premier training program for Christians in Hollywood Act One is a Christian community of entertainment industry professionals who train and equip storytellers to create works of truth, goodness and beauty. The Act One program is a division of Master Media International. To financially support the mission of Act One or to learn more about our programs, visit us online at Act One Program dot com and to learn more about the work of Master Media, go to mastermedia