Author Andrew Peterson and Producer Chris Wall

Act One Podcast - Episode 36 - Interview with Author, Andrew Peterson and Producer, J. Chris Wall.

Andrew Peterson is a recording artist, songwriter, producer, filmmaker, and the award-winning author of THE WINGFEATHER SAGA book series. His music has garnered three separate Dove Award nominations. In 2008, driven by a desire to cultivate a strong Christian arts community, Andrew founded a non-profit arts organization called The Rabbit Room which hosts concerts and conferences and has published over 30 books to date.

J. Chris Wall is the Executive Producer and Showrunner of THE WINGFEATHER SAGA Animated Series. Before creating Shining Isle Productions in 2016 to develop and produce family content with an entertainment first strategy, Chris spent over a decade collaborating with industry leaders at Dreamworks Animation and Big Idea producing the direct-to-video VEGGIETALES animated movies. He is also the creator of the acclaimed SLUGS AND BUGS SHOW with Brentwood Studios and RightNow Media.

THE WINGFEATHER SAGA animated series chronicles the adventures of the Igiby family as they discover secrets, flee the evil Fangs of Dang, seek their place in the world, and make a stand against the mysterious ruler, Gnag the Nameless. They will need their special gifts and all the love of their noble mother and ex-pirate grandfather to survive the venomous Fangs, sea dragons, flabbits, and toothy cows!

To watch the entire first season, go to https://www.angel.com/watch/wingfeather-sagaangel.com or download the Angel Studios app.

The Act One Podcast provides insight and inspiration on the business and craft of Hollywood from a Christian perspective.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

James, I hear this a lot from creators, whether they be writers or directors or others, um, complaining about whatever their project is budgeted for. And I have no appetite for it. Um, it is, it is, well, if we had the budget of that show, sure I could do this. And I'm like, those people have the same problems we do. You know, oh, if I had rings of power budget, I could really get something done. Could you? I just I if you can't play in the sandbox you're given, whatever that is, and and create beauty and create art, I question your ability to do more with more.

James Duke 0:44

This is the Act One podcast. I'm your host, James Duke. Thanks for listening. Please don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and leave us a good review. My guests today are Andrew Peterson and Chris Wall. They're the creators of the Hit New animated show, The Wing Feather Saga. Andrew Peterson is a recording artist, songwriter, producer, filmmaker, and the award-winning author of the Wing Feather Saga book series. His music has garnered three separate Devil Award nominations, and in 2008, driven by a desire to cultivate strong Christian arts community, Andrew founded a nonprofit arts organization called The Rabbit Room, which hosts concerts and conferences and has published over 30 books to date. Chris Lall is the executive producer and showrunner of the Wingfeather saga animated series. Before creating Shining Out Productions in 2016 to develop and produce family content with an entertainment first strategy, Chris spent over a decade collaborating with industry leaders at DreamWorks Animation and Big Idea, producing the director video Veggie Tales animated movies. He is also the creator of the acclaimed Slugs and Bugs show with Brentwood Studios and Wright Wing Media. The Wingfeather Saga Animated Series chronicles the adventures of the Igaby family as they discover secrets, flee the evil fangs of Dang, seek their place in the world, and make a stand against the mysterious ruler Nog the Nameless. They will need their special gifts and all the love of their noble mother and ex-pirate grandfather to survive the venomous fangs, sea dragons, flabots, and toothy cows. The show is available through Angel Studios, and to watch the entire first season, just go to Angel.com or download the Angel Studios app. Both Andrew and Chris are thoughtful artists who have created something wholly original and entertaining for the entire family. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Chris and Andrew, welcome to the Act One podcast. It's a pleasure to have both of you on today. Thank you very much. Good to see you. Glad to meet with you. And I would just wanted to spend some time talking with you guys about it. I wonder if uh we could just start with the actual um story itself. So we're talking about the Wing Feather saga. And this is a series of novels that was written by you, Andrew. And and if for for for someone who's listening to this podcast and they they have no idea, could you just give a quick pitch? What is the Wing Feather saga and what's it about?

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Oh man, Chris knows this. I always squirm when I get the the elevator pitch. Um I always think about Flannery O'Connor. Somebody asked her what one of her stories was about, and she said, Well, if I could tell you, I wouldn't have had to write the story. Um, which I'm not going to be nearly as snarky as Flannery, but uh I will just say it is a four-book epic fantasy that I wrote. Uh because I grew up reading fantasy, I've always loved it. And um, once I had my own kids, I realized that it was kind of hard to find really good stuff to read as a family. Like we read the Narnia books and some Indy Wilson books, and I feel like uh, you know, Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, but we kind of reached this point where I was like, why aren't there more of these kinds of stories? And I think really reading the Narnia books to them allowed kind of reawaken in me this desire to try to write something, which I'd wanted to do for since I was in high school. And so uh yeah, so I just sat down and started building a world and wanted to tell the a big sweeping story that would make my kids think that I'm cool. So that's the wing feather saga.

James Duke 4:47

As far as what's about Do they think you're cool? But do they think you're cool? That's the question.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

Here's the crazy thing. I think it worked.

James Duke 4:54

I think I think they do think that I'm cool. That's that's that's rare, my friend. I still my my kids uh yeah, not so much.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Yeah, all you have to do is write a four books of fantasy series.

James Duke 5:06

Um, and so also, too, for those that I'm sure I will have some people on the podcast that listen that are um big Andrew Peterson fans from back in the day. Um, Andrew, I think my first introduction to you was in college, and uh I bought one of your first albums. And so you're also a very accomplished musician and uh singer songwriter. And and I'm just curious, um uh for those of us who are know your music and are fans of your music, obviously you were as a lyricist, you were still very much of a storyteller. So it feels like this was kind of always always a part of you as a as a as a creative artist, no?

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Yes, I think so. Yeah, I've always loved words and stories and you know, a lot a lot a lot of my singer-songwriter stuff, uh, you know, it was I was never writing um um well, how would I how do I put it? I was a big fan of Paul Simon and Rich Mullens and James Taylor, like the kind of barred singer-songwriters who who all you could tell there there was a literary kind of aspect to a lot of their work. Um at the same time, it was very folky and earthy, and so I was really drawn to that and and all three of those guys, and uh and the music that I still love. So, yeah, so there wasn't the the world of uh novels and literature and the world of singer-songwriter stuff that I uh that I love, it all kind of inhabits the same uh galaxy, I guess I could say. So it so I just I I like it all, and uh each one feeds the other.

James Duke 6:39

Is your process similar at all from writing a song to writing a novel? Like it, I'm I'm curious as in terms of of um when you sit down to write, whether whether it's a song or a novel, what are the similarities and differences in your process? We you know, we got a lot of we have a lot of some I like to nerd out with some nerd writing questions and and stuff like this because we have so many writers that listen to the podcast, and I'm just curious about your process in particular.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Yeah, well, uh the quick answer is that there are there are ways in which they could not be less similar. Like writing a song and writing an a book are just vastly different things. Um, like I think of songwriting as um track and book writing as cross country, you know? It's like they're both they're both running, but they're very, very different disciplines, right? You're you're aiming for something different. So the songwriting is like you you can in it's a craft that you work on for years and years and years, but it is feasible for you to to to late one night write a whole song and then play it for somebody to show tomorrow. So you the the inception of the thing to the completion of, and when I say the completion of it, the moment when you share it with with someone is when the work of art is, I think, complete. Um uh that's can be relatively short. Some songs take way longer than that. Whereas book writing is just head down, uh like running a marathon, it's boring, you know, it's it's just this long slog. And the crazy thing is you don't know if it's any good for like two years, you know, doing this huge thing, pouring yourself into it, and you don't know if it's it's worth the time until you finish. I mean, it is worth it because uh, in my opinion, the real thing that's being written when you're writing a story is you, not the book. Like there is something that is shaping you in the process of learn trying and failing and the self-discipline, all the stuff that goes into it. So even if the book flops, it's made something of you, right? Um, so that's encouraging. Um, but the things that are similar, uh, there are real uh similarities in the the kind of arc of uh the creative process, you know? It's uh it's condensed with songwriting, but I think whether you're a painter or a screenwriter or a filmmaker or a songwriter, you start with this flash of inspiration, this like real, like your heart, your pulse quickens, you think, I'm gonna do this thing. And then you get into it and you hit walls and you think I'm the worst songwriter in the world, I'm gonna quit. Uh, why would anybody bother? And then you wake up the next morning and you slog through. And John Hendricks is this illustrator who has a great graphic of this, this shows the art, and it's like the peak of inspiration, then the the valley of despair when you think you're never gonna finish. And then the completion of the thing is different than what you thought it would be, and it's a little less than the initiating vision. You're you can never quite get it to where you thought it would be, right? But that that pattern, I think I I would I would bet that every art creative person, whether you're a carpenter or a uh painter, it that all kind of fits to me. So I think that the discipline of being a songwriter for several years taught me to not be surprised by the valley of despair, right? Like because you're in the valley doesn't mean it's time to quit. It might mean that it's time to like put on your gloves and keep fighting for it. And so whenever I kind of bounced over on my days off from songwriting to start working on the book and I encountered those obstacles, I recognized them.

James Duke 10:05

Yeah, I can't imagine. I I've never met any writer uh who has truly been satisfied with their work. There's there's there's all you know, I worry about the ones who think they've written something amazing. I'm like, okay, all right.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

That's so true.

James Duke 10:20

Chris, for you, okay. So, Chris, you're the show runner uh and one of the executive producers of the show. And uh tell people how you got connected to uh so I'm assuming you read the books and became a fan, and and whose crazy idea was it to turn this into a to an animated TV show?

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I just met Andrew a few minutes ago. He seems lovely. Um we had a very awkward meeting because I I did meet him through his music first. Um, and I was producing Veggie Tales at the time, and um I had gotten a copy of this kids' CD that he and Randall Goodgame had created called Slugs and Bugs and Lullabies. And it was these really cute, silly songs that he'd written for their kids. And and and uh my wife and I just loved it, thought they were delightful. And so um we were in a position where Mike Naraki, who had written all the silly songs for Veggie Tales, was working on the Pirates movie and just didn't have any space for uh writing a silly song. And so I reached out to Andrew and said, Hey man, I know you and Randall respected songwriters in town. Would you ever consider coming and writing a silly song for Veggie Tale? Like it's it's a little like you know, you could say no, and I'd be fine with it, right? My surprise and delight, Andrew's like, That sounds like a blast. Let's do it. So he and Randall came and pitched a couple songs that ended up in uh, I think we did three in different Veggitales uh movies. And and in the middle of that journey, walked up to me with the first book and it says, Hey, so um I wrote a novel. You want to check it out? And and it is that weird moment when you meet someone who's multidisciplinary, where unfortunately I think the immediate reaction is distrust. Right. This won't be any good.

James Duke 12:06

Right. Oh great, you you thought, oh great.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

My oh great was shoot, I'm gonna see him again, and I'm gonna have to tell him to his face if I read it or not and if I liked it, you know. And you're just like, Oh it's like Andrew, I know I'm sure for you it's somebody, hey, got a song you gotta play for you. And you're like, Oh, now this gets weird. And you know, conversation. What was the outcome that you thought would happen here? You know, anyways, so it's funny you should say that.

James Duke 12:29

I'm I'm gonna prep out my guitar right now.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

I've got something exactly. Or you you're pitching me on a show idea you've got. So, anyways, I did go read it with we have six children, and I read it with my older three, um, and it just had a blast with that first book. And it and it reminded me of Narnia, like kind of the Lewis kind of winsome, and but it was just it was fun, and we're like, that was great, that was great. Let's see what happens. So I then got to kind of read along as a dad over the years and got to know Andrew even more. And at various times he would reach out and hey, I got somebody ask me about taking these and adapting them to this or that. And I what do you think? And I'm oh, this guy looks pretty good. Oh, I wouldn't talk to those guys, they don't, I don't think they're you know, and I was at big idea, then part of DreamWorks, and just kind of all that running. And Andrew pitched a couple times, would DreamWorks ever think about taking this and doing some of the wing feather? And they just weren't in a position where they were looking at anything outside. It was like they had just got the classic media library, and it was like they've got their hands full trying to develop all this IP, and and I don't think they have an appetite for it. And anyways, so uh, but I just fell in love with the stories, and so by the end of the fourth book, um, in 2014, was just so swept up in it and was a part of the Kickstarter, you know, to make that fourth book and uh all of that. Then in 2015 came to the end of my time with Veggie Tales. So after 20 something years, it was all right, we're done with our direct video kind of movie business, and um had a real fork in the road for me of hey, do you want to come to LA and keep producing at DreamWorks or do you want to go to something else? And so I opted to go to something else, and that was after a long walk with Andrew on his property, saying, All right, what if we did what you were saying? What if we went after this thing? What I had immediate skepticism was, hey, I have most of my careers in animation. I had done live action and kind of came up as an editor, then a director of photography, and then eventually producing. But I said, I don't I I feel like I could bring the most value if it was an animated project. What do you think? And Andrew was like, Well, Avatar Airbender was a huge success. It was kind of a serialized narrative over, you know, beginning, middle, and end. I think that's a great target. And I'm like, okay. So then I told him it was fall of 15, well, I think we should test it with the audience because they really may have Lord of the Rings live action in their brain. And if we show up with animation, they might just revolt. And Andrew's like, Well, we should do a Kickstarter. And I was like, Oh, Kickstarter, really? I don't know. Uh, to do a little short film and kind of test this out. And so then early 16, that was our our first official big step was let's go um uh try that uh to develop it. And um it worked. Um, and we had a wildly successful Kickstarter. The audience was totally Andrew had done such a great job of cultivating that fan base that they were ready to to just jump and and see what they could do with this thing they love so much. And uh we started a little company uh early 16 called Shining Isle Productions, just Andrew and myself. Um, and I had made that decision early that I wanted to partner with Andrew to make sure that the DNA of this story stayed true. Um, I found the story to be so nuanced in its balance of winsome and epic. Uh uh, and and I I was worried that we'd lose the sauce if I just did a traditional deal of option the rights and go do something with a team, even if he was having a uh an outside voice into it. I was like, I need you in the sauce. And so that was kind of a question on both sides. One, Andrew, are you willing to be in the sauce? And yes, he was very collaborative. And then secondly, am I willing to take the risk that he's not gonna capitulate like crazy and be like the worst author ever, right? And you know, and and and it's been I can tell you, sitting here right now, James, at the end of season one, and and we're deep into season two. Andrew's a fantastic collaborator and has been just wonderful at saying yes to new ideas, uh, and also saying no in the right places too. This has got to stay true to what this moment is meant to be. Um, but but I think I just have to say there's emotional clarity of what this moment is meant to be. How that moment transpires, the scaffolding, the moments it takes to get to that moment can shift, right? Specific plot, the specific actions that are taken, as long as the emotional center is accurate. And that was the thing that that I was most after, and he ended up being most after as well. And it it was so freeing for the for all of the development and the adaptation of the writing that would come after to know that if we both agree this is the emotional moment I want to experience, and I had had such a powerful experience reading the books that I also wanted those, right? I was like, I I want to have the same tear and leap of joy and and and oh the break, the heartbreak of this loss. And I want to have all that same stuff. So because we're aligned on that, I think sometimes producers coming in to adapt to material can be like, I'd like this, but I didn't love that moment. I thought it could be better. You're doomed, right? You're like, you're just you're out on the scaffolding, you're you're breaking with your audience, like you've got to be aligned. And I think one of the reasons I felt really strongly about coming in is because I was so aligned with what he was giving us story experience in the novels, and just wanted to see could we make similar experiences in this other medium uh to get us going.

James Duke 17:44

That's great. I I'm curious as you your process of reading the book reading that first novel and going, um oh, I see episodes. And for you at the beginning, because I know you've you've uh you guys created a room and you have other writers on the project and things like that, but that very beginning when you're first talking to when you guys are first talking about making this an animated TV show, um I'm curious, you know, as you're looking, could you know the whole four book uh arc and everything going on? Um did it just flow right? Oh, well, this is this is episode one, this is episode four, or was it a bit of a battle of wait, we've got to save this for later? I'm just curious, you know, kind of the early conversations. Did you did you really know where you were going with the episodes? Did you did you know you were gonna do the episodes you were at first? Were you like, oh, we're gonna do 12 episodes or 15 or four? I'm just curious the the inside baseball, even with just the two of you at first, trying to adapt a novel. Uh, because this is maybe to the bigger question about adapting a novel, but adapt adapting a novel um to the screen as an episodic TV show. Maybe what are some of the conversations and challenges you guys had at first? Well, I had to tell you.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

Sorry, uh, I was gonna say really quick before you go, Chris has way more insight into this because he's he's kind of the ringleader, um, knows how to like gather everybody together. But I will say that like one of the things that that you didn't mention, uh, that is a very valid constraint is not just how do we adapt to the book, but how do we adapt it to the budget that we have? It's like how like you we've got this much money, it costs this much to make an episode. How in the world do we s do we make it a satisfying experience in that way too? So it's not just the the adaptation of the material, it's it's conforming it to like the the tools that you have at your disposal.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah, and and and I one I totally missed this uh in our into my recap, but we've vacillated between uh television to feature. So I think I I I am I have no shame in saying I am a slow learner. I'm slow to ideas. I'm slow to so so part of my journey is being afraid to wield the showrunner title. Um, I'm not a screenwriter. Um, I can do it. I don't like my screenwriting and don't want to discipline myself to make it better. And so before we got into this, I actually there was a masterclass with Shonda Rhymes uh that just was golden to me because it was freeing to understand a way in which I all my writing rooms had always been as a producer, I can map out story beats, I can understand structure, I can map out you know episodes and seasons like that. But when it comes down to it's really the dialogue, I I just I get so I any little it's funny, even Andrew, to this day. Like, do you remember at the end of episode six? I had that little snippet of dialogue for Poto. I I wrote that little snippet and I was scared to death to give it to you because I'm like, I just can't write. It's Andrew. I mean, he's brilliant. This is gonna be awful. And so when you were like, Yes, I like it, I was like, Yes. I just I hate writing. So I had to kind of get comfortable with how do I how would we do this? And in that, uh, so Jacob and Kenny, uh uh Jacob Roman, um, Fire Eisen and uh Kenny uh showed up as a writing duo that we had worked with at Dreamworks on some Veggie Tale stuff, been introduced to them out of Biola's writing program, and they did some great stuff with the Veggie, and so we reached out to them on the short film as our writers, and we said, Hey, we want to just start the process. Here's a scope of what that could be. So we chunked that off. Like, here's one way. And then I think, Andrew, we we did talk about the episodes for season what season one, you know. You go, like, is it 13 episodes? Because that's like a half order. Like, you just kind of have to use the what's our sandbox? I don't know, it could be this. Okay, well, what would we do in 13? I think you were pretty clear about half-hour experiences, Andrew. That was like we weren't gonna do unless us 11s, right? Um, we weren't gonna do hour-long, probably, you know, and the books are structured that way too. That they were one of the things Andrew talks about is writing shorter chapters. So, as parents for read alouds, you're not reading Lord of the Rings. I did that, it was really tough. Hard uh, and so we knew half hour experience is probably the best option. So, but then in the middle of that, uh James, we realized television has limited places to go where the distributors don't take it all and own everything. So, all your streamers that had that had happened whilst we were working on this together, is that the streamers pivoted to acquiring all IP, and suddenly you're just being hired to make your own project with a 20% profit. And it was like, wait, that's not right. And and that was kind of some of our journey.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

I vividly remember you calling me and saying something just occurred to me. Like you were just like wrestling with how the model for how to do this, and you were just like, I don't think it's a good idea to go that route.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

After we'd pitched them three times, like after we'd really bang on the doors, Hollywood like three times, yeah. It was it was a lot of we were ever from from Henson to Amazon multiple approaches to Netflix multiple approaches to Paramount, uh, which by the way, did you see the um uh uh Ninja Turtle um trailer, Andrew? I did. So so we pitched hard at Paramount with Moray over there with our short. Uh, and they were like, Oh, this paint motion style looks really great, but we're not sure. And this new Ninja Turtle is totally our style, just saying. I was back in 2018 when we were pitching that thing really hard. So five years later, they're doing exactly what we said. We we were just arguing for the CG animation glut was going to occur and how could we get away from it? And so we were interested in the creation of the series to pivot both not only the story itself, but also the way it would be told, like the way you would experience it. And so, anyways, after the TV debacle, we pivoted over to feature, and and we're like, what if it was a series of feature films? So then we restructured the stories to satisfy that, and that had different story map, right? Um, and we'd map that out to five films for the four books. Oh, wow. Um, kind of like Harry Potter style, where the last book is quite thick. Well, I mean, I have it right here. Um, the last book is easily double the length of this. And so we were like, well, what if we did five films? So we shopped that for a while.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

By the way, can I interject? I just got an email today saying that the Korean translation of the books is about to happen and that they've decided to split book four into two books because it would be over a thousand pages long. Oh wow. So I've I'm right, I've got a I'm gonna try to come up with like a title for what book five would be so that Word Network King could be book six.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

And make sure that audiences don't expect that you've written a book five.

James Duke 24:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the word's gonna get out. That that book five is exclusively available in Korea.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah. So we got to take a couple whacks at that story format, James. So then in 2021, so we abandoned the feature market after 2020 and Central is closed. And it was like, okay, independent feature is definitely an uphill battle. We should rethink about that time. Got introduced to Angel Studios. So I think a lot of ways sometimes your um formatting and staging is is dictated by what can the, as Andrew said, the budget and the the shape of the vehicle support, right? And I think the I was honestly, I don't know, Andrew, if you ever felt this, but what Netflix would say when we talked with them, well, how many episodes should it be? Right? What do you think kind of their mantra for so long? They're like issuing the broadcast standards of 13s and 26s. That was actually intimidating for me because I was like, Well, give me something.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Yeah, it's nice to have a structure that you're trying, you're yeah, a frame is great. It's like songwriting is way easier when you're like, ah, this needs to be between three and four minutes long. I've got to say what I gotta say here. Um, but if somebody says, no, write, write, you know, the song can be as long as you want, which I guess this is true. Um, it is, it's it's constricting to not have any boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Yeah, Taylor Swift just demonstrated that it was it could be possible. So I don't know. Uh yeah. So anyway, so we ended up with that became a fixed thing. So we knew exactly we could rate, we could only raise$5 million through this regulated crowdfund mechanism, okay, with five million dollars. If the if the target of what we're trying to hit is Dragon Prince, you know, uh troll hunters kind of territory of action adventure, those type of action adventures are budgeted between$650 to a million dollars per half hour. Okay, so we think we could do six episodes. So it's it's quite rough. So I know that doesn't sound altogether interesting or sexy, but it's like that's all we needed. Give me the blunt. Okay, six episodes.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

All right, everybody. What could six episodes be? What are the key things we'd want to do? And this is where uh the writing room really stepped in. I had an idea of what those six episodes should contain, which was to go from book one into part of book two. It was actually following what we've mapped out for the future. And Kenny and Jake, Kenny particularly came battling back and like, no, we should do it all in book one, here's why. And they mapped out what it could look like to that ending. And so then we just drove against that. And um, and then it was okay, well, now we're into the deeper machine, right? Now it's into okay, well, if if the character journey is here, what's your midpoint episode? What is in episode three that makes it interesting? You know, okay, well, then how does that pay off here? You know, you start building for me, it's always like put the big rocks in. Yeah, big things we know we have to get to. We know we're gonna end it. Okay, so how do we get to here to here to here? Okay, now start diving digging into the narrative tissue of how your characters are gonna work, you know, when you're doing a multi-season um serialized narrative. The other opportunity we had, of course, was we could pull things forward because I have all four books in front of us. So I could say, well, we know at the same time in the world this was happening over here. Why don't we expand the audience's view from a series standpoint to know, oh, there's greater evil or good happening in other places? Um, does that help us to give a sense of the broad world? I I think, Andrew, you said this. The first book is just hang on for it, because book two opens the world so large, like you, it's a simple journey, kind of, and then it becomes as epic journey as as the books unfold. And so we wanted to go ahead and insert some of that epic into the TV series, the sense of, oh, there is bigger stakes at play that maybe the books don't tell you, but but we want to go ahead and give you. Um is that fair, Andrew?

SPEAKER_03 28:28

I think it's yeah, I think that's fair.

James Duke 28:30

I I I love the idea of um uh using the books uh as constraints for your storytelling. I I think that uh we don't talk about this enough, I think, as creative artists, and and um uh I think the create and curious if you could speak on this, uh, either one of you, the idea of I think constraints are necessary in the creative process. It's it's important for creative artists to have structure, to have uh deadlines, as we say. Like it's there there is something about that writing. Um uh and and I and I would think that knowing how things end, knowing how certain things resolve early on, and then being able to plan accordingly, uh they provide their own unique challenges of kind of maybe how you want to get there. But at the same time, um, I would think that that's there's also a freeing aspect to it, wouldn't you agree?

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Yeah. Um yeah, I don't know how to add to that other than to say, yeah. It really is. It's just like I I'm in the I'm standing so close to the painting because it it's it was my story in the beginning that it's sometimes it's hard for me to see um you know its own error, its own flaws. You know, there have been several times in this process where you know, when you have a team of uh really good screenwriters in a room and story artists and all these people, and Chris knows story really well, scrutinizing every page of this book that you wrote, they're gonna find holes, you know. Things that that I, as the author, did not even notice. And you know, you go through like rounds and rounds of edits, and the books have been read by people, and there are things that we notice that nobody else has before. Um, little little holes in the story. And so when that happens, what the way I've described it is it's like going telling the story in this frame, having somebody kind of go, we've got to visually tell the story, and we're gonna change, move, move the camera over here and tell it in a different way. Uh, I I remember vividly, one of my favorite moments in this process was sitting in the writer's room at the end of the week, um, after they had uh kind of mapped out all of uh season one and they pitched the whole thing to us. And it was, I don't know, it was an hour, hour and a half of them just standing up there saying, This is what happens, giving us the beats of the story. And when it was over, I remember I got a lump in my throat. I was like on the verge of tears because it was so moving to see the same story, only all the bolts are tightened a little tighter, you know, and like we're experiencing it like a more distilled version of the same story. So some of the extra stuff that makes a book wonderful kind of got shaved away, and we we boiled it all down to something. So I was telling somebody that it felt like the the Wing Feather saga separated itself from me and from the books and moved a little closer to its platonic form. Like the essence of the story was what was left in that moment. And man, what an amazing thing. Like so, all that to say, it's the only way to get there is constraints. It's like we've got to figure out how to tell this. We can't get into the author to the main character's head. We've got to show what he's thinking. How do we do that differently? And and uh these necessary changes actually made the story tighter to me.

James Duke 31:44

Yeah. And I just think that young writers, young artists need to, and you know, there's always kind of this resistance at first. You know, I want the freedom to, and it's like, yeah, I I understand that, but at the same time, embrace the constraints, like you were saying, even towards the very beginning. There's a very real-world dynamic to storytelling with finances and budgets. And and by the way, just time. Time is finite. You can't you can't just keep going on and on and on. And so use that to your advantage as a as an artist, use it to your advantage. Your constraints, they can actually be um, they can be tools um rather than um uh burdens.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yeah, and I I get James, I hear this a lot from creators, whether it be writers or directors or others, um, complaining about whatever their project is budgeted for. And I have no appetite for it. Um, it is it is well, if we had the budget of that show, sure I could do this. And I'm like, those people have the same problems we do. You know, oh, if I had rings of power budget, I could really get something done. Could you? I just I if you can't play in the sandbox you're given, whatever that is, and and create beauty and create art, I question your ability to do more with more. Um, and I have always really enjoyed being a producer who rallies around a team to say, here's all the sand you have available to you. Yes, there's a box on this sandbox, and there is no limit. And yes, the people over here have a bigger sandbox because they're building something else. But let's pay attention to what we have and let's let's play at the edges, let's find our best version of this that fits in here. Let's not over rot and try to make something that is not in our box because it'll just look like a pale comparison. Don't try to be a Mercedes when you're budgeted for Ikea, it just comes off that way. Um, you know, scare yourself a little, bite off a little more than you can chew. We scared ourselves real good with episodes five and six of season one, and and knew that would challenge us, but in a healthy way, you know. And and I think after having done this for a few years, like I've I've learned a few things, right? Um, uh my mentor in this space, uh Chris Cuser, who I worked with at DreamWorks, had been on development with Shrek and how to train your dragon and just all these puss and boots, too. And and he was really key on I have some ideas that are worth even thinking twice about. Most of my ideas are not. Early in my career, I thought every one of my ideas was great and should be put into practice. Budget be damned. We'll find more money, right? And and it's not that way. The discipline of saying this, and I also think I've seen plenty of creators complain about a budget constraint or other things like that because they lack the confidence uh to go in there, um, you know, to just make the brushstroke and commit to it and just know that's what it is. And I told our team early on, I said, hey, we're season one, there's a lot of pressure. These books are powerful and they're growing like crazy. Audiences love them. We could totally face plant here by trying to be 100% of what the books are. We cannot be. We have to be comfortable that if we could hit 80% across all our disciplines, if the writing can be 80% of what Andrew wrote, if the animation can be 80% of that, the background and the visuals can be 80%, if the music can be 80% of that, we win. If we all strain for 100%, we're all gonna not like each other when we're done. And I don't think the craft will be any better, per se, for the audience. Like and and it's the classic story of as you're as we're talking right here, if you're distracted by a small piece of something in the background of my image right now, you probably hate the conversation. Like I've lost you. And so if we have a tripping hazard of some visual or some bit of animation or some story thread that then you're probably not in the story zone, anyways. Like I haven't caught you with my magic. And so we have other problems. But if I've caught you with the magic, I don't care if I'm on a ukulele round of fire or I'm rocking your face out at Wimbledon. Like it's it's what am I doing? Right. Um, and I I I hear people cry about their inabilities and constraints in ways that I just never believe. I'm like, do some. I and I was inspired early on coming onto Veggy Tales because Phil and Mike did that. There were two kids in college who found a way to thrill audiences with puppets.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

And the limitation of puppets, you know, is is so like you're in front of a bunch of kids and adults, and you got to figure out how to make this work. Well, that discipline happened to translate into little spheres of of a cucumber and a tomato doing the same bits, right? And and talk about constraints. I mean, veggies was full of constraints. No arms or legs, people.

James Duke 36:33

No arms or legs, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

Come on. I would say just really quick to add on to that, like another helpful way that I think about it is as a singer-songwriter, I've I've been the opening act for a lot of shows early in my career. And uh when you're standing, when you're out on tour with a band, you've got it's you and a guitar usually when you're the opening act, and they've got the light show and they've got the drummer and they've got the whole thing. And it's okay to think, gosh, one of these days, I'd love to have a full band. I'd love to do a full band show. But tonight it's me and a guitar. And I've got to find a way to win over the audience with 20 minutes or four songs with me and a guitar. And the cool thing about it is, how many shows have you been to where the guy comes out with just a guitar and and the audience is pulling for him, right? They're kind of like, oh, look at that guy. He's out there, he's he's you know, giving it all he has, he's completely exposed. So it can't like this thing that you see as a as a weakness is actually a strength. It's actually a thing that you you uh it's a it's an ace in the hole, you know? And so uh, so I think that that's kind of like what we were doing. We were thinking, you know, we're not gonna pretend like we we uh we're not gonna do a bunch of like foot pedal stuff and play to tracks to trick people into thinking that we're a full band. No, we're not a full band. We're we're the guy on the stage with it with an Aguisi guitar, and that can also be great. Um, and I think that's kind of how we approach this thing.

James Duke 37:51

I am so impressed with the show. It it does not um to be clear, I understand following the analogy, um, you're thinking budget-wise that you're um, you know, you're just gonna make the best, you know, you're not making a hundred million dollar film. So in that sense, you're out there with a guitar. But I want to make it clear to people who are interested in watching the show. Watching the show, this is this this is a fantastic show, and you guys should be congratulated. It doesn't feel like uh a solo guy with a guitar. There is a it's a full band, it's a full orchestra type show, and and I think that the animation in particular is beautiful, and I just wanted to talk about that just for uh you you you touched on it just a little bit. And um, so my my thought on the the show is there is a um and and man, I hope this doesn't come across as a as a negative. I because I realized as soon as I start to say it, I thought, oh no, but I I mean this, it there's a quaintness, there's a quaintness to the animation that is it is uh it's evocative and it it it pulls you in. I don't know how to explain it other than um there's a richness to it that um uh because it it it so you know anyway, uh before I continue to pretend like I know what I'm talking more about animation when clearly I don't, can you, Chris, explain this new type of animation or or different types? It feels like a uh a hybrid between traditional 2D animation and uh new computer generated animation, and it's got this really cool effect to it. What what type, what style of animation is it? And why did you guys decide to go in that direction?

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Well, I'll just kind of zoom back to say the books were the footing for that. So the books, Andrew does this wonderful job that somewhere in the room here with me is a big map. And so Andrew started by putting a map together for Wingfeather that was like, okay, there's a real world, real history. And then you read the books, there's these footnotes to those other histories. So there's a groundedness that there's something happening. Well, in a world of animation, uh Hayomiyazaki does that, right? Where he indicates things in their worlds that are like, what's that history? Don't know, but it's interesting. So there's always things beyond the edges of the lens, right? That the audience is invited to participate imaginatively. Modern computer photoreal imagery does not invite that same participation. Pixar's light year, it's all right there. We've told you everything. You understand? Uh, traditional 2D invited that a lot. Bambi just swashes a color. Your brain goes, I there's a forest over there, right? So there's a lot of people that talk about being inspired by Miyazaki and other things, but they just lack the discipline to commit to it. And we ran into that as we started working on this Viz development, uh, which was everybody wants what Pixar is given them. We're only taking Pixar. Now, thankfully, after our short film came out and we tested those by pushing the boundary of this kind of hand-painted, painterly style that does for me, it takes me back to like secret of Nim, you know, uh a certain like that's not Disney, but it's cool. Like, what is that? You know, so you're right, the quaint kind of there's something old and new about it. It's a weird thing. Thankfully, after we came out, uh Spider-Man Spider-Verse showed up, right? And and everybody went, okay, maybe we've done this too long. And then now we've seen, of course, uh bad guys did a little bit, and then Puss and Boots 2 did more, Mitchell's versus Machines, the new uh Ninja Turtles coming out. Like they're they're all saying, Okay, what else could we do? And it's just it's great. So now we're of the moment in 17 early, and like everybody's like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow your roll. Um, but it was driven by this this desire to not do Pixar on the cheap. So that's been done a bunch, and it always looks the same, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Which is kind of what I'm getting at with the acoustic guitar thing. It's like we're not going to pretend like we've got a full band, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Which is kind of like Andrew, you've been to shows like this, right? Where a guy gets up with a guitar but then pushes buttons to make a full orchestra, and it just feels like, nah, dude, you don't have the full kit, man.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

James Taylor doesn't need any of those bells and whistles. He can get up there and play sweet baby James, and he's got you.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

You know, so because the the storytelling was was off the page, we wanted the visual storytelling to try to get to the same space, where hopefully we're inviting the audience to imaginate with us. And that was something that Keith Lango, who's our animation CG super, all of this is his sauce. Like it was something that he'd been working on. He's one of these really wonderful animation philosophers that that animation is not done, that we we can still discover more ways to do this craft, right? Um, and everybody kind of got cul-de-sacked by Pixar. All good things, but we kind of stopped there once computers came in. It was like, well, well, the apex of that is just basically a Marvel movie, right? Like, there's no what are we doing to distinguish them now? There's this like, let's let animation be animation, let's let it do what it is, whether it's a computer or 2D or something in between, like we're doing. And so um Keith really had championed that for I mean, decades, honestly. Um, and and that was the first meeting. Andrew and I were talking about this. I said, Hey, we got to go get Keith. And we sat down with Keith, would you be interested in helping us to develop this? And he became a core guy with us here at Shining Isle, uh, to to not only bring this great story, but to bring it forward in an interesting way, you know, the craft of how we do it.

James Duke 43:26

And how many, how many animators work on the show?

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Season one, we had I think like a team of, I think it grew to about 16. You know, we had like a core staff of like a dozen. Um, and then we kind of in surge mode, you go, oh, we need some extra guys to jump on. Maybe 16 or 18.

James Duke 43:44

Well, one of the things that I uh appreciated about uh appreciate about the show is and and I'm not trying to um I don't I'm not trying to go negative here, but there's a lot of but in comparison, I just want to say one of the struggles that I have with what is often referred to as um you know Christian or faith-based entertainment or something like that is um uh there's uh there's not necessarily a whimsy to it, there's not a wonder to it, and and many times uh it's not compelling. Um I I I don't understand the need to if if I'm being forced into a church van because someone bought tickets for me and they're forcing me to go and watch it. I don't what I find here's what's great about the Wing Feather saga, it is compelling. Um from the from the moment you turn it on, it is compelling. The the animation is compelling, the storytelling is compelling, the the characters are compelling. There is a there's a warmth that it exudes, there's a there's a there's a fun, there's a jovialness. And and to me, that what speaks it just and and I and I'll summarize all that by saying it's original, it it has something new to say, and it's it's old ground that's been treaded because, like you said, Andrew, you you were inspired in your childhood. And I mean, there's definitely um elements of of of Lewis and Tolkien and all this kind of stuff in it, but it but it's its own fresh new thing, and that is more compelling to me, and that is more compelling to a typical audience than someone telling me, oh, this has something that you have to watch or have to participate in. And I just want to give you, I just want to congratulate you guys on creating something fresh and original that that it's a it's a joy to watch. And I'm really looking forward to seeing you know the the the future seasons uh unravel. I'm curious, you do you anticipate four? Um maybe you don't have it all worked out yet, but is it going to be a four season um show? Are you expanding it? What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Well, we uh thank you for saying that, by the way, James. Very good to hear. Um, very kind of you. One of the uh as a side note, one of the I was laughing while you were talking uh about uh kind of feeling like you've boarded a church band. One of the things that I say often in the uh, you know, we have this this app called Frame where we can make notes on the on the animatics and stuff as they come through. And uh and I I will say in all caps, no teachable moments. No teachable moments, like get rid of the teachable moments. And it's that may sound surprising to someone listening, but like as soon as as soon as like the kid in like I'm a pastor's kid, so I'm very aware of that moment when when the the spell is broken because somebody's saying, now here's the reason why we're watching this show, as if a great story isn't reason enough, you know. And so anytime we kind of air toward that, I'm kind of I I want to just be like, no, no, like what would someone actually say in this moment? Um, they're not gonna stop and open a Bible. So uh the it's the mystery, right, Andrew?

James Duke 47:06

It's the mystery. The the mystery draws the audience in deeper, not the not the knowing that I'm that I'm you know, not the I have to brush my teeth because if I don't, my teeth will rot, like just hearing some sort of didactic, you know, this is the truth, you have to, right? But instead, it's the mystery of these characters and the journey that they're going on, and and the unanswered questions that draws us in, and especially even for kids. As kids, when your imagination runs wild, uh the the idea that my imagination, I can carry these uh stories and these characters far further than even you can as the original um writer.

SPEAKER_03 47:49

And you know, the the thing is the cool thing to me is that sometimes a story does demand that you tell the truth. So sure, of course, stories do teach, but the story gets to be the boss of that you don't, you know what I mean? So, like you have to like if the if it is right right now in the story, and I think episode six does that. There's there's a moment at the end of episode six where it's like there is a truth that kind of lands, but it's like we earned the moment to be able to tell that truth well. Um, and so yeah, as a friend of mine says, the the the stories aren't overtly Christian, they're deeply Christian. And I would rather be deeply Christian any day. So the answer is go ahead, Chris. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Yeah, just that the if you're trying to capture an age 12-year-old kid, right? You cannot capture them with obligatory watching, you can't capture them with aut-tos. Uh the only reason Veggie Tales ever worked was because it was actually funny and it was actually good music. And if it didn't earn that, the kids have the remote and they will change. I don't care if grandma or mom and dad aspirationally want them to hear this truth through this disguised scaffolding Trojan horse of new. No, is it good? Does it work? If it doesn't stand on its own, so for me, the the real litmus test is and thank you for all that you said, it really is genuinely meaningful, but also not my primary audience. Like for me, it is do I have eight to 12-year-old kids approaching me going, when does this happen? And are there little heads in the world when they talk to me? And if they are, then we've done our job. If it's mom and dad, thanks for the good show. I gave him his vitamins, you know, I kept that chocolate away from him. You're like, we lost. We lost. We're not we're not winning as entertainers, we're not winning as storytellers. And so I just and and we have struggled to Andrew's point with the Christian label. Um, it has been the hardest thing to get away from. We were told by the CCM side of the industry, yeah, the fantasy elements and there's no god in the world, we're dead on it. It makes us uncomfortable. Lizards are definitely of Satan. And then on the on the secular side, it was this guy, Andrew, he wrote resurrection litters and behold the limit. Yeah, he's totally trying to pull one over on us. He's just uh proselytizing, you know, other bad names. And and we were like, no, no, it's just a good story. That just happens to be our worldview. And and the term Christian fantasy is something we just had to fight and say, no, we're a fantasy series. And I often will be uh it's a kick-ass fantasy series, just to kind of shed that, you know, just like don't try to make us that other thing. Now you're gonna absolutely understand the Christian ethic and and the redemptive uh deeper meanings if we're doing our job, but but that is just imbued in the story. Uh, and that's very, very, very hard in this world, James. I have worked with countless writers who can write really good secular scripts, and I've worked with countless writers who can write really milked toast, on the nose religious stuff. And finding the balance in years of Edel's writing was that like we'd find people that religion and in their spiritual lives were completely pandering, like they just couldn't write it authentically, and finding a way to let that just just be in your story, uh, it was so hard. Uh and and so when you find writers that can get it and and also write with with and and obviously they're able to lift in this case from Andrew's great writing, right? Where that's kind of effortlessly woven in. Um, that has been a tough part of our journey um on distribution and on the writing side. It's like it's funny how it hit it hit us on many sides.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

So go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 51:24

So I was just gonna say, in to the short answer to your question is we're planning seven seasons. Oh wow. That was how this whole thing started. Yeah.

James Duke 51:33

That's exciting. Okay, that's very exciting. I, you know, uh I want to I'll get you guys out with this, but I um or maybe or maybe I'll sneak in a few more questions, but uh but uh I think one of the bigger that the one of the things that we're kind of beating around the bush talking about here is this idea of of of of theme and subtext. And that one of the things that I obviously the books are are laced with and the show is laced with is this idea, one of the things that we teach at Act One is you don't write to theme. Um uh you theme is something that emerges from the writing, and you can see when people write to theme, you can see it coming a mile away. In fact, there's so much more of even whatever you want to call it, secular, you know, whatever non-faith-based stuff that's now being written to theme that it's just so heavy-handed.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

And we don't like it, right? We don't like it, foice it back on us. No, if we agree with the perspective of that, it when it's coming at us, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I got it. Stop doing the thing. Oh, you're doing the thing, you know.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

I always I always cringe when people say that like the problem with Christian art is that there's this agenda, and I want to be like, oh my goodness, it's not just Christian art. Like, how many times do you go to a movie and you're just getting beaten over the head by a thing? And it's like, please, can you just tell me a story? Just tell me a story. That's exactly right.

James Duke 52:52

Just tell me, yeah, yep. And that's exactly right. And I and I think that one of the things that's that once again, I go back to this word compelling, that the reason what makes the show, one of the things to me that makes the show compelling is I can sit down and I can pull out deeper themes to talk to my kids about. I can pull out because there's just so much subtext there. And um, I'm curious, just because the themes are so buried so deeply in the source material, I'm curious, Chris, the conversations in the writer's room. Are there times when you guys go, hey, you know, it would be great to to to flesh this. I'm just curious when it comes to the deeper themes of the show. Um, do you guys discuss that at all in the writer's room in terms of are we missing the mark here? Or or um to to kind of our greater point we were saying earlier, no, let's just let's just tell the story. And and and maybe the theme that we thought was more compelling in the book ends up maybe not becoming as compelling. Maybe another theme comes out. Like I'm just curious in terms of in the writer's room, uh, what do you guys talk about because you have a source material that you're working from?

SPEAKER_00 54:05

Yeah, I think that there absolutely is. You have to have a North Star of like, what are we trying to accomplish in our emotional targets for the season, right? Over the long haul. And so season one was a family coming together and discovering true identities, right? Season two, a family having discovered identities being broken apart, right? And so there's those themes. Those aren't themes you're gonna put on a bumper sticker on your car to evangelize, right? You're not gonna distill it down to actionable lessons, but you thematically, yes. Now, how those emerge and how those get unpacked between characters, between scenes, between episodes, that I uh we enjoyed having it organic and kind of let it find its way. And you'd get a draft and go, wow, this is cool. And you'd also find gaps where you'd get like, man, I don't understand at all what's happening thematically with this character. Like the journey that this character's on has gotten completely stunted here by episode four. How do we recover that? What do we do wrong? What do we how do we, you know, so and then I think the other thing is, and this is a discipline that we always have to work for in the television format, is you can only do so many things, right? And there's like six or eight different literature can can introduce so many nuances and spurious ideas and and references that are both poetically and and you know, prose and things that we can't do. Well, we shouldn't try to do. I think a lot of times in the faith community, you find that they throw just everything in, and you're like, I don't know what was the story here. There's like seven different things happening, they're all good, but there's so many of them that I don't know what to pay attention to. And so I think one of the things we had to be disciplined to in the adaptation is winnowing down to this is what we're gonna drive at, you know, and try to. I love that thing and that thing and that thing, but you know, we got to stay here. I think if we and again, zooming back, we did a short film. And in the short film, we got to test some things and go, wow, we gave them too much info. Right? So we that proved to be really valuable as like a little test piece. And I know Andrew is watching it, we learned like stuff that kids and adults just didn't catch. So just why did we introduce it? Let's better leave it off, you know.

SPEAKER_03 56:21

Well, my answer to the theme theme question is uh, I think theme is okay if you if you become aware of it as you're going. Um, but the first draft of a book, like when you're writing a novel, and songwriting's kind of this way too. Uh, that's when you should try not to be thinking about it. You should but be thinking, what is the next awesome thing that could happen right here? And what what would a person really say here? And what how is this story going to unfold? When you get to the end of the first draft and you go back and you look over the whole thing, that's when you go, oh wow, I didn't even realize that this little plant was growing up here, or this little vegetable popped up, and you're like, oh, those are the good things that um that you had to discover. And then you can go back and and weave into the beginning, the story foreshadowing and little moments in the characters that that do make sure that those things land in the right way. So it's not like we're allergic to the idea that there are themes in a story. Um, I think you just I am allergic to the idea of starting there. Yeah.

James Duke 57:18

Yeah. I like that. I I I completely agree. And in fact, we teach um the I think the Pixar processes, they do a theme pass. So it's like you you write the script, everyone comes back, they read the script, and everyone talks about what emerged from that first draft. And then if there's a couple of core things that emerged for the majority of people, then it's like, okay, let's go back now and see if we can find more ways to layer in those and do like a theme pass. I'm I'm curious about the whole Angel Studios experience. So obviously, people are going to be like, hey, how do I find this show? How do I watch this show? And uh Chris and Andrew refuse to work with Netflix. I'm just kidding. No, uh but uh no, so but uh you guys decided to go with Angel Studios, and that's where people can find it so they can download the app or AngelSudios.com. Um, how uh what was the process? Why did you guys decide to go with Angel Studios?

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Andrew, do you want to say for your part because I think it's really important?

SPEAKER_03 58:20

Um, I don't, I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at, but the uh I would say um it was the realization that if we were to um partner with any of the other big streaming services that we would lose control of the story. Yeah. We we we felt I I didn't I would rather there not be a Wing Feather Saga animated series than there to be one that that broke the story, you know? Yeah, and I just was like, I don't feel comfortable just handing the keys over to somebody. So um uh and then along comes, and we'd kind of reached a point where we were like, hmm, we're not sure what to do next. And then we met the Angel Studios guys, and their whole model is complete career creative control. We want you guys to make the show what you want to. They don't own the IP. Um, we would have had to sign the IP over to anybody else that we would have um partnered with, and so there was a whole bunch of uh creative freedom in going with them, and then but then that you know the cost that that comes with is well, we got to find the money, right? Right.

James Duke 59:20

And and and how has the process been working uh with them so far?

SPEAKER_00 59:24

So fantastic, yeah, and I think it's one where we gotta know they know their lane, they're great distributors and marketers, right? That's and they're like, we trust that you've done the job of curating a community of fans, it's kind of their whole model, yeah. And you want to you want to be faithful to those fans, and so you're the best one to do it. And you have economical, you know, reasons to do that, right? That if it works, those fans are going to reward you with success. And so um, they feel like that creator to community relationship is is the thing, and if they can fan that into flame, you know, what you have nurtured and brought up, which Andrew had done, and then together. We've done more of that, then uh we'll take it from there and continue to fan and develop and grow. Uh and and and provided you know some vehicle for us to be able to reach to a larger group of people to tell them about helping us financially to invest in our company to go, you know, achieve these goals, which that journey has been fantastic and just a bit overwhelming at times at how beautiful it is. I think we've now we're over 10,000 investors that have invested in the series. Well own a part of our company. They literally have you know units in in 20 cow productions, and and we uh on their goodwill have gone and made season one and now season two is underway. So um, and then we hand that show over, and Angel co-owns the show with us and uh and goes and develops all the pieces, right? So whatever ancillary product we're gonna make with that, uh it's all part of that that arrangement, you know. And it's really good to work with.

James Duke 1:00:59

Yeah. Well, um, congratulations to both of you. It's uh it's a fantastic show. I I hope everybody that's listening to this uh watches it. It's it's for the whole family. Um little kids, there's some intense moments, but I think that uh it's nothing uh nothing any more intense than you would see in a lot of other common stuff out today. Um, but it's it's fantastic, and you guys should should be very proud of what you've done. Um I I'm genuinely looking forward to future seasons, and my kids are too. And I and I think that um what uh what you've done is you've you've created something good. Like something good. And and Andrew, I don't know, do you did you partially uh the world building that's the part that makes me uh do you have a deeper appreciation for talking creating entire languages now?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

Very, very much so. Yeah, like the all all the great ones, like you just kind of like are in awe of their ability to hold a whole story in their mind and and do the thing. It's it is a really astonishing thing. I feel like I'm just uh ropes on the good year blimp, as they said about Bob. Um, yeah, I'm just like uh kind of astonished by it. And but I would say the same thing for the the whole process of filmmaking and making this show. I had no idea what I was asking of Chris when I said, Hey, you want to make an animated series? I had no idea. And like here we are seven pushing seven years later, chasing this thing down, and like like Chris has worked so hard, and I just have kind of stood on the sidelines trying to be a cheerleader. Um, and it's just a lot harder than anybody realizes to do this, and uh, and so I'm I'm grateful for the encouragement, and we're so pleased with how it came out.

James Duke 1:02:45

Yeah, God bless you guys. I I always try to end my podcast by praying for my guests. Would you allow me to do that? Oh, Heavenly Father, thank you so much uh for today and the chance to be able to um just talk to uh these two brothers. I'm so grateful for them. I'm so grateful for uh just how you've uh gifted uh both of them, gifted them both as um as storytellers and as artists. Um, how you've gifted both of them to uh tell this story in particular. And God, we just pray that the audience would find it and that people would um, like so many others, would just fall in love with these characters. And um, God, we pray for the creative process and the fundraising and all the other kind of things that that are involved in making the show happen. Um and God, we just um I pray for a blessing upon both Chris's life and Andrew's life, God, that you would protect them, you protect their families, um, uh you protect their loved ones and that you would um look after them. And uh we just thank you for this opportunity to be able to connect with them today. We pray this in Jesus' name and your promises we stand. Amen. Thank you for listening to the Act One podcast, celebrating over 20 years as the premier training program for Christians in Hollywood. Act One is a Christian community of entertainment industry professionals who train and equip storytellers to create works of truth, goodness, and beauty. The Act One program is a division of Master Media International. To financially support the mission of Act One or to learn more about our programs, visit us online at Act OneProgram.com. And to learn more about the work of Master Media, go to MasterMedia.com.