Act One Podcast
Act One Podcast
Writer/Director Brandon Dickerson
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Act One Podcast - Episode 37 - Interview with Director and Screenwriter, Brandon Dickerson.
Brandon Dickerson is an award-winning writer/director/producer honored for his work in film, documentaries, commercials, and music videos—including the coveted Cannes Gold Lion. After building a career directing hundreds of high-profile commercials and music videos, Dickerson shifted his focus to writing, directing, and producing feature films. His music-based debut feature SIRONIA won the audience award at the Austin Film Festival before he dove into the inspiring biopic VICTOR, followed by the documentary A SINGLE FRAME, and the quirky romantic comedy AMANDA & JACK GO GLAMPING.
With comprehensive experience as a DGA filmmaker, Dickerson also enjoys serving as an educator, writer, speaker, and improv teacher. Brandon is currently directing/producing his commissioned screenplay KATHARINE — the true story of 1880s social justice pioneer Dr. Katharine Bushnell. Earning his MFA in Film degree at Vermont College of Fine Arts, Brandon continues his dedication to teaching by investing in the next generation of storytellers at the VCU Richard T. Robertson School of Media and Culture as well as mentoring students globally as a Superprof Ambassador.
For more on the retreats Brandon mentioned, visit: https://orefugioretreat.carrd.co and https://azoresislandretreats.carrd.co
The Act One Podcast provides insight and inspiration on the business and craft of Hollywood from a Christian perspective.
People bring this up a lot in freelance writing of all sorts, like 80% get it out there. It's 80% done, or you know, just get it out there and keep going. Whereas I'll tend to go and just keep pining over this until I get to what I think's 110%. And I've spent, I could have made five things in that time, you know. And I think the people that are doing well and moving forward are the ones that just, you know, churn it, churn it out.
James Duke:You are listening to the Act One podcast. I'm your host, James Duke. We appreciate you taking some time out of your day to listen. And if you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe and leave us a good review. My guest today is director and screenwriter Brandon Dickerson. Brandon Dickerson is an award-winning writer, director, producer honored for his work in film, documentaries, commercials, and music videos, including the coveted cons Gold Lion. With comprehensive experience as a DGA filmmaker, Dickerson also enjoys serving as an educator, writer, speaker, and improv teacher. Brandon is currently directing, producing his commissioned screenplay Catherine, the true story of 1880's social justice pioneer, Dr. Catherine Bush. Earning his MFA and film degree at Vermont College of Fine Arts, Brendan continues his dedication to teaching by investing in the next generation of storytellers at the VCU Richard T. Robertson School of Media and Culture, as well as mentoring students globally as a super prof ambasitor. Brandon is a talented guy, he's a sweet guy, funny guy, and I think he's a deeply thoughtful person of faith. And I really hope you enjoy our conversation. Brandon Dickerson, welcome to the Act One podcast. It's great to have you on. So good to be here, James. Thanks so much. We were just chatting beforehand about how we have all these mutual friends. You're one of those guys that I feel like was in the room probably at some place, and then and then you would walk out and I'd walk into it. Or I was in a room and then I walked out and you walked in. So we for some reason we never met, but I Yeah, let's tell the true story.
SPEAKER_00:I've tried to meet you a bunch and you've like run across the room. You're like, oh, here he comes.
James Duke:That's the truth. No, but it it is funny how uh you know they always say Hollywood is a small town. And I I've just known of so and then you know, you talk about the Christian community and Hollywood even smaller. And and so so many people would the reaction that I would get when I would tell them, you know, I know of Brandon, I just have never met him. The reaction I would get was always, really, like you don't know, like like it was something wrong with me. Like there was some form of some deformity, there was something like how could you not know Brandon? So anyway, it's great to finally meet you sort of face to face.
SPEAKER_00:So absolutely, yeah, it's fantastic, man. It's great. Great.
James Duke:Thanks for you've had a you've had a uh just a really fascinating career that I wanted to introduce people to. And um you you are you are a um uh a writer, director, producer. You you you've uh worked in a lot of different spaces. Not you you've you've made feature films, you've um uh been hired to write uh uh other people's work, you've written in um the space for uh obviously uh with music videos and commercials. So there's a there's a lot of stuff I want to talk to you about, but you've also uh it seems to me lived a very interesting life. Your your family has been on a little bit of a uh an adventure, and I want to make sure we spent some time talking about because you're just so people know, you're coming to me. We're speaking right now. I'm sitting in I'm sitting in Los Angeles in my home, and you are speaking to me from where you live now, which is in Portugal, is that right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and not only Portugal, I I am on an island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. And one of my favorite things to do right now, and sometimes I can tell if somebody's looking on their phone or or googling the Azores. So we're on the Azores Islands, I'm on Sao Miguel Island, and if uh you look, you're shocked, it is just these islands in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. So we are thousand miles actually away from Lisbon. We moved to Lisbon in September and then fell in love with the Azores here and moved here in March. So yeah, I'm coming to you. I may get the award for the most remote uh podcast. I mean, we are just on this beautiful island. Um, we love it here.
James Duke:So well, bravo for technology because the image uh is crystal clear. I don't know. Uh you have fiber on the island, right?
SPEAKER_00:No, they do. People think we moved to Gilligan's Island. They're like, Do you have, you know, are there grocery stores or there's uh it uh yeah, it has very fast internet and and and surfing, which is something I didn't have when we ended up in uh in and around Austin. So back to my California roots in in a way.
James Duke:That's great, bro. Well, I want to get to kind of why you're there. We'll we'll we'll we'll get that. I want I want to start off just um because one thing is you've been a pastor, you you you've obviously spent time in in um in ministry. Um and so I want to I was also the Kool-Aid man.
SPEAKER_00:I just want it's it's never been documented that I was for a summer I worked as the Kool-Aid man. So I just want to add that as we're talking resume. I just want to make sure that it's noted. Yeah, oh yeah, we dress up in the suit and go to grocery stores and do like special appearances. So it's uh it's never been noted, and I never get the the um props that I want for having it. It was icy bear, and then I upgraded to Kool-Aid Man for one summer.
James Duke:So that sounds like either that sounds like either the worst summer job or maybe possibly paid really well in the 80s.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, this was like you made a lot, so it was great.
James Duke:That's great. I love that.
SPEAKER_00:And I put the Kool-Aid Man suit in a short film, so I was like, I have the most interesting uh, you know, uh costume design, which probably was illegal to put you know a copyrighted image, but I have some early, early kid short films in high school that include the Kool-Aid Man, illegally, I think how to use them, you just get it in there. Um yeah, use what you have, use the tools in hand, right? That's the that's the filmmaking 101.
James Duke:Well, so talk to us a little bit about how um how you came to be. Um, like where you where are you from originally?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I grew up in Fullerton. So um, yeah, behind the orange curtain down there in the 80s in Fullerton was the kid that saw a movie called The Champ. I don't know if you remember Ricky Schroeder and John Voigt. Yeah, that film destroyed me as a little kid. I saw it twice and I couldn't believe that you could see the same movie, know exactly what was gonna happen, and it wrecked you. And so it was like I was eight years old and asked my dad what the you know how these films are made, and he explained to director, and everybody else wanted to be, you know, play for the Dodgers or be firemen. And I said I wanted to be a film director. So I was a very young age, and being in California, you know, you can get some some support for that, but that was that was it. The classic, you know, VHS camera when I graduated from eighth grade uh graduation and and sort of haven't stopped since. So but yeah, that's where I grew up. Grew up and grew up in Flirton, California.
James Duke:Now, was now did you grow up in a uh a religious home, a Christian home?
SPEAKER_00:Or I did, you know, um I I had a really well twofold positive experience. Then my parents got divorced when I was quite young, which is actually how I pulled off the video camera. Like I was able to sort of turn, you know, uh guilt gift, was it a guilt spike? Yeah, it was. It was a complete like that Christmas, I cashed in uh on so many things. So um, with all the the negatives of being a child of divorce, it probably helped my my film career at a young age. But um, yeah, you know what's interesting. I was thinking about this recently that I had, and it's almost like you just don't hear this anymore. I had a really positive youth group experience. Like I feel like I, you know, probably so many of your friends as well, so many friends I had are sort of like going through the the difficulties and traumas that they had in that. I actually had an incredibly positive youth group experience. EV free Fullerton, uh, some great friends, some great sort of mentors, uh, also a creative encouragement, like all those VHS movies I was making for youth group. I was filming all sorts of stuff, had places to show work, and um and then later in life, uh after college, uh a church that I was working with youth at bought me a film camera, not not a video camera, a CP16 film camera, which was the start of music videos. That's how I started shooting music videos was with a film camera. So did it shoot 16?
James Duke:Was that a 16 mil?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was 16 millimeter film camera. Wow, yeah, it was incredible. Yeah, it was incredible. But for me, growing up in a I I did grow up in a Christian home, but of course, with divorce, you question that. You go, you know, um what uh what is true, what is what is real, and um that positive youth group experience was foundational, but it really was not until I would say when I moved to Aspen, Colorado. I I went to Cal State Long Beach, bombed my first semester because it was too close to home and I couldn't really figure uh things out. So I went to Aspen and I was a ski bomb uh for that semester. But being alone was incredible because I went to this town where I knew no one, and I realized I could be anything I wanted. Nobody knew me, I had no culture, and I really felt God's goodness and uh presence and grace, and it was not because of any um anything cultural. It really was real and foundational and profound, and I'm I'm thankful for that. It was a wild sort of route. Um, but yeah, 19, I think things took a deeper root uh in isolation because there just was, you know, uh there's it that can be a really positive experience, right? Sort of soul searching.
James Duke:So well it it and that isn't, you know, I I think that that is probably an atypical, I mean it's not uh it's not typical. Um you often hear someone at that age kind of you know sewing their wild oats or something. And right, right. Um that's a really um for uh growing up, I like I'm I'm curious. Uh I I've been watching some uh Spielberg stuff lately and just talking about the influence, obviously, that almost all of his films reflect the trauma of the divorce in his life. Right, right. Um as an as an artist, um do you um uh are there are there key oh how to say it, maybe wounds or experiences that you feel like you find yourself constantly processing through uh with your art and that that have really influenced a lot of your a lot of your work?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. You know, the um I think it's Renoir or somebody that said you make the same film over and over in these themes. And to answer your question, I've realized, and I think it's when I came here to Portugal and have had some space to sort of look back on, especially the feature films, and I'm kind of making the same film over and over, and it's about people struggling uh with finding worth in their work, and I think that's the wound that I keep trying to play over and over in films, and then the truth is that's the wound I'm I'm daily wrestling with. So even though it wraps up in the third act of my feature films, it is not totally wrapped up in my personal life. You know, it's that classic thing where you put your self-worth in your work and you know intellectually and and uh all sorts of other ways that that's not healthy. But yeah, that struggle, and I do think that kind of goes back to childhood stuff, and even um I think the double whammy of divorce and I was an only child, which I didn't I didn't realize had such a stigma. I think my parents did a good job, even though I cashed in on that one uh season of sort of not playing the only child privilege card. So I didn't know till I went to college, and people said, Oh, you don't act like an only child. And I said, Oh, what's a what's an only child act like? I don't know that. But I will say the loneliness of you know, you're going through divorce and you have no one else, and I kind of poured it into um, I don't know if you can call it filmmaking, whatever I was doing at that young age, but I did receive a bit of accolades that I think was a drug of choice, you know, um, like, oh, here I do these things, people like them, and I like the way that I feel when I make something that people appreciate, and then I think as an adult, and certainly when you become a professional, that's a mixed blessing. Like nobody, you know, if I'm having honest conversations, I'm like, nobody feels sorry for you for oh, you made your four movies and hundreds of music videos. You know, there's no pity in that, and I'm and I'm thankful. But then you've made your career, the your livelihood, and all of that. And so to really separate your worth provisionally and artistically and creatively, it's tricky. And I can't say, you know, I'd love to say I've mastered it, but I I really feel like that's my daily um challenge is like I want I want to be in the third act of my own movies. You know, like what it look like on on a screen.
James Duke:No, you've haven't you haven't reached you haven't even reached the midpoint yet, buddy. You haven't even reached right.
SPEAKER_00:I know, I know. I'm in the messy, yeah, I'm in the the whiff of death or something. I don't know. The darker the darker bits, but I want to get there. I'm trying, I'm working on it. I'm working on it. But that's a great, that's a great question. Because um, yeah, the answer is yes. I these themes keep keep coming up.
James Duke:I I think that I think that uh when you look when you look at and you probably um uh don't think about this because we often don't think about it for ourselves, but you know, whenever you look at someone's body of work, you can actually see uh little traces and hints of this kind of stuff. I think a true artist is always kind of working out, like you said. Uh they're they're working, they're always working these things out and over and over and over again. And for you, when you started, um um uh music was it mute was music videos kind of your um foray into the business? Did you like what was your first professional gig?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, it was all music video. So that I took that um that super 16 millimeter film camera and was living in um New Mexico. Brian Belknap, our mutual friend, was there as well. Um, and I would just find bands that were coming through and then try and meet them and and shoot music videos. So, first professional, I think um uh I think it would be Five Iron Frenzy. I don't know if you know this band Five Iron Frenzy.
James Duke:My my my my wife my wife is a fan.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, there you go. So I think that like professionally, there were a few videos prior to that, um really, really uh echoing green, actually. I think may have been my first video. I did this documentary, like a documentary short for a band called The Prayer Chain. Um, but then where it took off was Sixpence None the Richer. Where so I was doing a lot of those videos, and I did those guys had become friends, and um Steve Taylor, you know, this is right after Kiss Me, and Steve Taylor did the coolest thing, and and I had been doing quite a bit of music videos at that time, all the uh five-minute walk videos I did exclusively, and then I started doing stuff for two with the mail, and then Sparrow, and then it started getting bigger and bigger, then Switchfoot, a bunch of switchfoot videos. But um coming off of Kiss Me, Steve Taylor, you know, every 11 directors wrote for the There She Goes video, and um and the band, yeah, no, it's crazy. I and in the he trusted me, and the band trusted me, and that video blew up. And then, of course, this is a time depending upon the age of your listeners. There's this thing called music television that showed music videos and VH1, and so that ended up being a uh you know, uh in heavy rotation and top 10 video, and so so then music videos really took off, and then um two things happened. Disney I pivoted, I was very fortunate when music videos started dying, and you had Napster come and the whole music video thing, and then MTV wasn't playing videos like this perfect storm, and so I was making a living as a music video director, and uh then I jumped to Disney. I did this jump five music video, and it was for Beauty and the Beast, and that's how I met it. It was like Disney. I did probably 40, you know, Disney. This became my thing for uh I was able to jump from when music videos died. Uh I was very fortunate to start doing Disney music videos, which were thriving because they had uh you know their own channel, they DVDs, so anytime they would do radio, yeah, Disney Radio. Yeah, Disney Radio. I mean, it was just a thing, and they were very good to me. And I became uh you know the go-to guy for a season, and that was incredible. That was just good fun because they would take, like in this case, they would take a song, they would re-release um Beauty and the Beast, and then they would just take the song and get one of their acts and add Beauty and the Beast, you know, or it would be Pinocchio or Snow White, or you know, I just did all these videos, and then of course they had the movies, so then I was doing you know Camp Rock 2 and uh Lemonade Mouth and Princess Protection Program, all of that, and then a bunch of buddy videos, like all the dog videos. I was doing all the Beverly Hills Chihuahua, you know, every everything with dogs, and so I mean it was comedy. Pix uh all the Pixie, you know, when Pixart picked up the um Tinkerbell franchise, and then it was like you know, they get Zendaya to do, you know, a Tinkerbell video, and Selena Gomez and Demi Lovato and Jonas Brother, all that. So that's how um but then in commercials, go ahead.
James Duke:No, I'll I was just were you in-house, or this was all contracted out work, all contracted, all contracted, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it just um, yeah, I mean you'd have to compete, compete for them, but once you get that ball rolling and you know, you start building relationships. And for me, there were all these divisions. So there was the the direct to DVD division would make music videos, the the Disney Channel original movies would make videos, then Narnia, then they would make Narnia, and I would do the videos for uh Switchfoot for Narnia and Steam and Chris Chapman for Narnia, and so it was yeah, it was really I was very, very fortunate um for that. And then commercially, I just had the craziest thing happen. Someone we were in the Bay Area before we moved to LA, and this production company called Kaboom Productions had seen my music video work. I think this was right when the sixpence video hit, and they said, Would you ever consider commercials? I said, Absolutely, I think that could be good fun. And so the first commercial, I mean, this is the first commercial I did won a canned gold lion. So it like it like you win the you win the Oscar the very first one, yeah. The very first one. So yeah, if you can do that, that's a good way to start in commercial. So I was what was the commercial? So what was the commercial San Francisco Jazz Festival? So it was um, and it was pro bono. This is something that not known. I did the first commercial I did, I did for free, and then just to like get my you know feet in the door, and kaboom was like, the the creative on this is great, and you should do it, and then it just I didn't even know. I was doing another commercial in Europe, and I got a fax, which tells you what year this was. We got a fax that said um you want a gold lion, and we thought it was a a prank, and we called people there and they go, No, you did, you know, they haven't even announced it. What had happened is the French they will not allow a gold lion to go unaccepted. So they found out I didn't even know the commercial was up for it, and so they tracked me down and made sure that I was there because you know, it'd be the biggest offense for a gold lion to go. It was insane. Next thing we know, it was insane. Next thing you know, you're you know, we're over there. Our son was one year old, and we're like, you know, flying into you know, and you've seen can your whole life, and there's the red carpet and all the stuff, and it's the you know, it's the advertising side of it, but still it was you're you're you're sitting there holding your uh gold lion next to Sean Penn and George Clooney, yeah. Yeah, but those guys aren't at the those guys, it was actually all the it was none of the at the film guys, because this is the advertising side of the of Can. And so, but it was like Tractor and all of my heroes that were commercial and music video directors uh were all there, you know. And this is when like Michelle Gondry and Spike Jones and um all those guys are doing, they were like heroes to me in the commercial and music video world, and um, but it was nuts, and so then European commercials took off, and I I was doing but what's funny is a gold lion will get you two years of just insanity in the commercial world, and then you're not hot anymore, right? And uh, and to be honest, in the Disney world, when I switched to feature films, um, they found a new me, and I I couldn't go back. So, like once I was done, once I became a feature film director, I was not hirable in commercials or music, it like killed my uh livelihood, which is interesting thing. Why do you think that is? Well, I think to be well looking at Disney, um so I was directing at least something every month, if not a couple things a month, and sort of insider baseball, is that what you say? Insider baseball. And so the uh is that the truth is if you're an executive at any place, right? You want job security, and so you have um five treatments for music video directors, right? And there's some new up-and-coming director, there's like a mid-level director, and then there's the guy that did the last five videos. So I was that guy for a while. I was the guy that they go, look, sure, he can direct Camp Rock 2 because he just did the Demi Selena video for Prince's Protection program. And the reason is if it goes wrong, that executive is not in trouble because all he has to say is, Hey, I hired the guy that did this. Like it's not on me. If they hire the new guy, they are taking a huge risk. And if it goes south, it's on them, which is why when you're that guy, it it plays to your benefit. And then the minute you're not that guy, it's impossible. So for me, I went from being the guy to they found the next guy, and then when I finished filming Saronia, I came back and I'm like, guys, I'm back, you know. Hey, let's let's do another, you know, 20 videos. And they're like, ah, we got, you know, this guy's doing just as good of a job as you did, maybe better. And you know, so yeah, it's interesting.
James Duke:I mean, there's a machine, it's a it's a machine over there, right? Like, so it's just like they're constantly having to output. So if you step out of it, they just they bring someone else in, and the machine just has to keep going.
SPEAKER_00:Totally, and everybody's happy for you. They're like, hey, you're a feature film director now. And the interesting thing is that's what I wanted to be since I was eight years old, even though I you know love that. But then the the reality is um it's very different. You know, I have a lot of friends that are commercial directors that don't want to do music uh films because they know this. They go, Man, I don't know if I can provide for my family. I want to make a movie, but I'm doing commercials and I'm you know, I'm a working director. Um so it's interesting. It uh I it well here's the here's the thing that is true though, right? And and to be honest, is had Saronia become you know, indie darling Sundance hit huge, well then yes, probably I could have uh, you know, just having these sort of humble films that people enjoy but are not massive hits, I'm not able to capitalize on that in a way because it's it's more about working class. I mean, it's it's more like you know, blue-collar work of just you know, I'm I'm no longer at the factory. Hey, why'd you leave the factory? Well, I went off and did this thing, and they're like, Yeah, well, you're you know, it's funny because there's literally a part in Saroneia that film I filmed, not knowing that it would be prophetic in nature of him saying, like, you're not what's hot right now, you're not what's hot, and then then we finish the film, and and that's kind of what happened to me was exactly what happened to the character in the self-fulfilling prophecy.
James Duke:So in a sense, it's in a sense, it's like leaving the job to go start your own business, sure. And then you come try to come back, and they're like, No, no, no, like you went and started your own business, you know what to do now.
SPEAKER_00:Like, go out there and you know, yeah, um, and they're happy for you. They're like, That's great, and then everybody's excited, but that's what gets back to the um like I envy, and I'm sure we grass is always greener. You envy people that do this for a hobby when you and it's been very fortunate to make a living doing it, but when those things are connected, this matters, yes, right? Who cares if you go and do another Disney music video, like you did a bunch, and to be honest, creatively, there wasn't a lot more I wanted to do. I did, you know, I quit counting at a hundred, and so I I think I did everything I wanted to do creatively in music videos, right? So, but the reality was, you know, two kids and a family, and it it's like that's and because I don't have a plan B, I'm like, what are my other marketable skills? You know, like now I'm a feature film director, and fortunately I I went on to make more more movies, but it's a tricky, it's just tricky, it's a tricky thing, and these are all you know, very fortunate problems to have, but it's I don't know, it's interesting, probably interesting in this format to discuss these kinds of things.
James Duke:Yeah, for sure. I I'm curious if we could nerd out a little bit, get a little nuts and bolts um for our body. Um let's let's talk about directing music videos and commercials because my experience have lots of friends similar to you who are in this space, and it's the process is fascinating to me. I I'm I'm curious if you could break down if I've got some aspiring directors, uh, people who want to direct music videos, commercials, that listening. What um what does a music video director do? How does one how does one become one? And um what um what does that look like? Um does is it my my kind of take on it is you are uh you're a writer director in these spaces because you are you're working with the client to essentially to build out the creative, right? The idea, the concept typically. And then it's your job then to execute it. Um, could you break that down just a little bit more um for our audience in terms of what the the role and the function of a music video director is?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. And there's kind of traditional paradigms. I go way back, you know, I was shooting all my original videos for years on film, not because I'm uh I mean, one could argue that I I held out very long because I'm some sort of purist, but the reality was it just wasn't the technology wasn't there, but that lets you know how far back this goes. So now there's some of the same paradigms, but it's worth noting that you can go find your friend in a band and shoot something and put it on YouTube. That's a way. But I think what you're talking about is like, what's the the professional traditional paradigm? And what that is, you have a band that's on a label. Okay, so they're on a label, and historically they had quite large budgets. Um now the budgets are smaller, but there's still some healthy budgets. And so the label gives the band they're like, you have an album, you have a single, and we're gonna give you$150,000 to make a video for that signal. Now what happens is they go out to directors, so they're looking at reels, and usually they'll pick you know three to five directors. The six months one had 11. I've heard um, you know, sometimes it's it's a couple, but it's always you're competing, and you're right, you're completely right about the writer director because you write the idea. So as a director, you write what's called a treatment. And when I started, those were written, and as time went on, they became elaborate websites sometimes, depending upon the scope of the the project. So it's anything from I mean, it at a minimum, it's kind of like a pitch deck would be. And you are showing your idea, and you say, um, you know, it's either gonna have a story or not have a story, it's gonna um, you know, what the band's gonna look like, and and all these photo references, there's pictures, and so you make your presentation, and uh then the band and the label will decide who gets the video. Now the other thing to note is, and this is still the case in the in the in the grand scheme, a director is signed to a production company. So um uh I was at kaboom productions, then I was at uh propaganda, which was um why we moved to LA, and that was a huge production company. Then I was at Crossroads, merge at Crossroads, and so they will have um a roster of directors, and so typically directors within the same production company will not compete, um, but different production companies will compete. And so that is also a contract, so to speak, to bring it in budget. My idea has to be a$150,000 idea. So then they say, let's do it, and then that production company produces the music video, and you go and you shoot it, and you edit it, and you bring it, you know, all the way, all production kind of takes space. But it's different in commercials because you don't write it. So that can gold lion that I won, I didn't write the idea. It's basically like being handed a script, and on that side of things, you have um historically an advertising agency, a client, and all of that. What's interesting now is a lot of those things are getting blended, or you'll have in-house or a production company will also create content, generate ideas. But uh generally speaking, that's it. And that's why music videos are fun because you're coming up with the ideas.
James Duke:Right. And they used to be quite lucrative. I I know because music videos, like you said, the budgets have have uh shrunk. I I even line produced some stuff back in the day, and and it's and I remember speaking to this director who he was like this, he had done like you know, huge ones, similar to you. You know, he he did he did some Britney Spears and back in the day, and he had done um uh ACDC, like he had done all these back in the day when they had these big budgets, and then um uh I think he I think he was European, I think he was over in Europe or something. And uh and uh the project I was working with him on was was like the the 20th, you know, this was years ago, but it was like a 20th of what and I remember him just on the phone, just just letting like he wasn't mad at us, but he was just letting us have it. He was telling us about how they used to give me millions of dollars to do these things, and now you know everything is and it's so I know that I know that the that that has shifted and changed, but having said that, like you said, there are still some the occasional nice budgets, but commercials also in particular, that I don't think a lot of people realize that um kind of as with television, because there's such a because there's so many commercials are needed, there's so many of these types of projects needed, um uh you can you can you can earn you can earn a nice living just working in, depending on what you do, just working in commercial and music video spaces, because there are there is such a huge demand and huge need. So these production companies, uh like you said, are churning out all these projects. So um when you think about that, when you think about like the opportunity that someone would have to kind of jump into a system like that, what would be your advice on an aspiring director? What what do they need to do to get known as a director? What kind of what kind of advice would you have for them in in the marketplace today? Um what do they need to be doing to build like well? First of all, let me take a step back. What should they be doing to develop their skills as a director? I was talking to a buddy of mine, Scott Teens, was I don't know if you know Scott.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, Scott's awesome. Yeah, I I heard your your podcast interviews great.
James Duke:Yeah, and we and Scott and I were always somebody's like, well, no one gives, you know, writers can just write, right? Yeah, but directors, no one's just letting you go out and practice directing.
SPEAKER_00:I know that's that's what I was saying about envying you know, painters or musicians. You can write a hundred songs and you only show me 10 of them, yeah. Or you know, painting, but I can't make you know 50 movies and show you the three best. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:So um, yeah, it's so true. It's interesting. I think basically your your question, the the break-in, and in that space, the thing that we talked about earlier is what makes it so difficult is that job people are not taking risks, and so they're hiring the same people. So the top music video guys um are like the top music video guys when these nostalgic stories that I'm telling of my early music video careers. There's like five of those guys that are still doing it, and the reason I think they're still doing it is because of the risk adverse nature of it. Um and uh I had a um a good friend who's a music video commercial getting into TV that was actually visited us here on the island, and he was lamenting just the challenge of the industry, and um there's so few of those jobs that are there's so few jobs open to new talent, I guess I would say. Like the harsh reality is the break-in is is really difficult. And so my advice would be the flip side is I'm sure everybody talks about this. I mean, now you know, back then you had to have a a film camera, and then you had to go do you know, transfer telesine at company three, and then you had to like to make something was so difficult. Whereas now you can, you know, get a black magic pocket camera and go make something amazing. So my advice is go find a band in the music video space, find a band that you love, like go to um go to a club, you know, go hang out at Largo and just go see every show and meet the vans and those relationships and and you know, build your your reel, build your your work so that you have to have something to show. Like there's no way to break into if you want to break into music video. Or commercial commercial so tricky because you really have to have a production company. Like people are not uh that seems to me, and and maybe people that are still doing it could speak to this better, but I uh I don't see how you don't do that, and that's that's another route is build your reel and then go find these production companies that are are going to partner with you and then try and find you work.
James Duke:Yeah, there's no there's no independent commercial world, like you kind of have to work in the system of advertising agents and production companies.
SPEAKER_00:Totally. Um what is the it's interesting that well on the on the band side, you go and you shoot your friends. I remember like that sort of happened to people, um, like a director that's doing a bunch of videos for his friends, and then your friends are smash mouth, and now you're and then you're the hot like if that band hits, you could be making a meeting mediocre video, you know, and all of a sudden you're the guy that directed the the video for whoever it is. So yeah, that's the way to do it. Go out there and shoot a video and then make sure that band blows up, and then you're you know, but anyway, I cut you off.
James Duke:You're saying no, I was just I was just curious. How does how does one develop that visual aesthetic? Um, do you just what I always tell people is just like what what you just said, there's no excuse these days. Like you have you have an amazing camera in your pocket, like what you and I are talking about shoot it on an iPhone. Yeah, I mean, I'm talking to you on an iPad that can shoot like it, like these things are possible nowadays. There's no excuse to kind of go out and so if you were kind of designing a course for someone where they said, Brandon, you know, how do I learn how to direct? The two things, and you tell me, check, check my uh check the advice that I give and tell me what you think. But I always say, um uh find an excuse to find an excuse to shoot something with actors so that you're getting the experience of learning how to visualize a story, but you're also learning how to direct actors. Those are those are the those would be the two essential how to communicate with actors, how to, how to, how to work with them, how to collaborate with them. And then also how do I how do I tell the story visually? What what is that good advice? What would be kind of uh your advice for someone who's an aspiring uh director?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And I love that you're asking me to teach a course because I I love teaching. Like that's my my other, especially at this point with like 25 years behind. I actually just am completing a uh master's, not because of anything else, but I found so many people have asked me to teach, and then they're like, Oh, you need a master's. I go, really? The you know, the the the four feature films are not enough. They're like, no, what you really need, you know. What the kids really want to hear from is someone with a master's. So, but now I have both. So uh, so you're you're calling my bluff in that you're asking me to teach right here and now, and I love it. The I would since we're talking about music video, I would take exactly what you're saying. Because here's the important part you just mentioned to work with real actors, and that's why it seems silly to work with a real band, but that's where you're gonna learn that dynamic. Because let's take it on the short film. It I mean, there is something charming and cool about shooting all your friends and that, but the minute you work with real actors is where you're gonna learn, and you learn more through failure. So you need to get out there and fail a lot, fail quickly and often, and start doing it, and you're gonna learn because you learn more from that than from successes. So, on the music video side, find a real band that you don't know and pitch them on an idea, on a on a concept, and then you're going to understand uh how the whole thing works. You're gonna understand that you know they created a piece of art that you're slapping something on top of, and that's a delicate relationship because you're either enhancing or just completely ruining what they've worked on. And I've worked with you know, bands that are a dream and collaborative, and bands that are a nightmare, and certainly uh solo artists that are that way too. And so you have to learn that before if you're gonna get to that production company stage, they're gonna look at somebody that's worked with a real band, even if they're not known, versus this is my uh you know, brother doing a lip sync to something. I would not waste your time doing um, you know, taking a cold play song and getting your uncle to sing, and like that does nothing, yeah, in in my opinion. In the same way, um the actors, like I mean, you'll when I went to I went to um after getting an English degree, I went to NYU's cheater film program. They used to have they still have it, but it it used to be amazing in that you could in and go to NYU Tish, and it was like uh 13 hours a day, six days a week over you know four months, and you made short films, and but you could get actors, you know, because they want something for their real. So you can do casting, and uh if you have a good idea and a good script, and you can work with real actors and get that experience, and that experience is gonna be so much more than um your friends. You can crew up with some friends, you can get your you know, your buddies to to um gaff and boom and you know, all that stuff, but in terms of in front of the camera, I would just start with real talent, and then I would make something, watch it, learn, make something else, watch and learn, make, you know, just keep keep going. The other thing too, and this happens in writing, and and this is also something that uh you know daily I work on, but that that idea of just getting stuff out there. Like I find that you know people bring this up a lot in freelance writing of all sorts, like 80% get it out there, it's 80% done, or you know, just get it out there and keep going. Whereas I'll tend to go and just keep you know pining over this until I get to what I think's 110. And I've spent, I could have made five things in that time, you know. And I think the people that are doing well and moving forward are the ones that just you know churn it, churn it out.
James Duke:I agree. I I I think that is such good advice. Both of those things are such good advice because I though those are those are two places that I find a lot of aspiring filmmakers often get stuck is they get stuck with um not working with people who are better than them. Oh you gotta work with people who are more talented than you so that you know where are the gaps that I have to fill. And and and the second one is so working with professional bands, that's really good insight. Excuse me. And then that and then that part there you just said you you've gotta, I I've I've say this a million times, which is take the job. Work begets work, begets work, begets work. Like take the job, learn from the job, build relationships with people on that job. And more times than not, that will birth other opportunities. And you've got to just get into that, you've got to get into that process of just creating. You can and you can't sit around, right? Like that's the struggle that a director, an aspiring director can have, which is they're they're sitting around waiting for someone to give them money that they can make their citizen cane.
SPEAKER_00:And it's just right, it's just not realistic. No, it does not happen. I love what you say about working with people better than you. I I did that early on, and I think it served me really well in that you know, early videos, it was I shot them, I edited them, I brought craft service to I literally did everything. And it was, it fortunately came to me in the Bay Area. I was renting a camera, renting an Aerie camera, and at the um at the camera shop, when the when my stuff was on the table, the guy went in the back, and the cinematographer that was getting his own gear pulled the order, pulled the order over and wrote down my phone number. Because he just said, Who is this getting all this gear? And so Cold called me and said, Um, hey, it looks like you're shooting your own stuff. And he's like, I'll shoot your next video for free. And uh, and he and I did he and I did, you know, 30 music videos together. Because he he came in, his name was Norman Bonnie, and um he came in and uh shot, you know, and I was like, wow, he's better, he's better than me.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And so yeah, so then it was um, and then editorially I met this guy, John Francis, and I was like, he's so much better than me as an editor, and so yeah, it's collaborative that way, and so you've gotta be egoless and and and that's what's so fun. I mean, those early music video days, I I really love the just it was like position after position, letting go of, and I'm like, this guy's way better than me. This guy's way better than me, you know, this guy's way better than me, and just and I think I it helped build a career earlier by being collaborative with really talented people. So that's that's I'm just saying your advice is is fantastic.
James Duke:Um, the I don't know by the way, have you seen uh my wife is a huge was a huge fan of that the band The National, and um yeah have you seen that documentary? I think it's called Mistaken for Strangers. Have you seen that documentary? No, oh bro, you'd love it. What's it about? It's it's so great. So it starts off as the lead sing, the lead singer's uh brother um wants to make a documentary about the band. And the the brother is uh he he convinces the band to allow him to do that. So he's gonna follow them around and make a documentary. The problem is is the lead it the lead singer's brother is is a is a bit of a doofus, like he's not he's kind of a like he can't keep a job, like he's a bit of a like he's kind of a bit of a loser. And so it's like his older brother is trying to help him out, but you see it all playing out in the documentary, and the brother will do things like forget the camera, or he'll he'll not he'll not show up on time when the band's like it's that he keeps and it just ends up this documentary shifts and ends up being about this personal dynamic between these two brothers because he eventually kind of fires his own brother and he and then they kind of but they have to they've invested so much, they got to finish the documentary. And it's a it's a it's a fascinating look inside like a tour, the the the the world of uh of a big rock band kind of going on a big tour, but it's but it's uh but it really shifts and becomes this um this documentary about about brothers and uh familial bonds, and it's really it's it's really a fascinating documentary. It's it's way better than what I was expecting it to be. So you should have.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I've seen the I think it's Mike Mills. There's a Mike Mills project. I'm a huge fan of anything he he does. And I think he did something with them that became um sort of inspired. Come on, come on, but maybe I'm I'm off. But yeah, it's good stuff. That's awesome. It's good stuff.
James Duke:Let's talk a little bit about excuse me. Let's talk a little bit about your film career because you you talked about Left Disney. Um, you went off and you made uh this film Saronia. So so tell a little tell us a little bit about um what what what brought about that project and and what what's it about?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's crazy. The um so we're in Hollywood living there, you know, in LA, and my wife's mom gets cancer. And so she's given it stage four in like six months to live. And so we within 10 days just move our whole family to Waco, um, just to Texas. And this is this is uh pre prefixer upper Waco. This is like this is not um uh and so I I have to say that because when people sometimes hear the story that you know now they're like, oh, you you went to work. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. This is this is this is uh you know what year would it be? 2009, 2010. Um, so yeah, a really tender time family-wise. Everyone thinks it's kind of like good for the family, but career suicide, um, you know, to move to you know, small town Texas. What happens though is I slow down from all the commercials and music videos, and with two friends, one um uh musician, and then another is a theater teacher there, and um, we just start uh writing songs around um Wes Cunningham's music, um, who's a friend, and um and so we actually had the soundtrack uh before we had the um you know before before we had the movie, and so we actually took 40 songs that he had been writing in his basement and and he had moved abruptly from LA to Waco, and then we had also for different reasons done that. So the story was crafted around somebody that uh when he's told he's no longer relevant, moves, you know, to Saronia. And Saronia is actually a fictitious name for Waco. Um, because at that time, you know, Waco was just uh, you know, quaresh, it was like had a very different reputation. So we avoided saying Waco in anything. So Saronia, but we were just having a blast writing this script, and so the three of us would just meet at a cafe and write, and then I'd write, and they would write, and we just you know came up with this great script, not thinking at all that it would, you know, get financed and become a film. And then um, yeah, my wife at that time had this company called Raven and Lily, and uh this family invited us over to dinner, and I was just a plus one, you know, joining it. And uh they had kids, so you know, they're like, What do you do? And I was like, Oh, I do, you know, Jonas Brothers videos and that kind of stuff. But uh the husband just says, I mean, I say, but I'm writing a film right now, and he said, Does it just take money to make a film? I said, Yeah, and he's like, Oh, I know a guy that uh that may be interested. And then yeah, week week later we met um Gary Haven, the owner of Curves, and and he financed the film. It was crazy. Like so we yeah, he just he uh yeah, he he finally so it came, you know, in the most unlikely of circumstances, and it was such a a beautiful, beautiful thing that and it was kind of I mean, one of the coolest parts of it was that Kirsten's mom was lamenting the fact that we had you know uprooted the family, and then before she passed, I was able to tell her like because of this, I'm my childhood dream is coming true, you know. This what it seems is this horrible thing, and it was horrible and and sad and and painful, but out of that, that's how my my first feature film came. So it's a crazy story, and we shot it in in Waco, and um, yeah, it was a wonderful the the film was a wonderful experience.
James Duke:Did it and did you did it get distribution or can people still see it, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It did. It did. I um I don't keep track of they're all on um iTunes, the others um keep moving. Uh the yeah, they're on for three years on Netflix, two two of my feature films, and then um what's so interesting is like someone will say, like, oh, I watched uh Victor on Tubi, or and I go, I didn't know it was on a tubi, or like uh you know, Man and Jack O Glampi was uh you know featured on Amazon. We watched it, so I don't you know, once you sort of sell the film, you're it's not in your um hands. So uh and I didn't even know how long they would be on on Netflix. So um what was the anyway? Yeah, you can I think all of them are on all of my films are on iTunes, and then pick a week, they they jump around everywhere. They're being traded on the open market somewhere. So it's funny here in Portugal, you know, people were you know trying to find them and they they shift all the time.
James Duke:So are you so you're setting so here you are finding yourself in Waco, um, shooting your first feature film? Did you yeah, did you by the way you shot it in Waco?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we did. Yeah, shot it on film, shot 35. It was a blast. It was so fun.
James Duke:And what was that process like for you finally kind of stepping into that experience? Did you do kind of what we talked about before? Did you surround yourself with a lot of people that you knew that you had a relationship with to kind of help you through the process?
SPEAKER_00:Or were you both and um both and I mean I was you know, at this point, it was like I'd waited a long time. I'd been, you know, directing for 15 years, um, and always wanting to do films, and so I was just thrilled. I was just, you know, put me in, coach. I was I was so excited. I'd spent so much time on set. This is an interesting um another insider thing, is that I had been given the advice to, you know, there's two ways to go. And I think this is what you're asking. You can either surround yourself with the people that you've worked with or hire the most talented person. Here's the mistake that I made, to be honest with you, is that I hired a few key people from my music, video, and commercial world that are incredibly talented. And it dawned on me on day three that I've never worked with them more than two days. Right? This insane aha moment and a bit of an oh crap moment. And in hindsight, it makes total sense. But I did surround myself with some people that I loved that were talented, but they were music videos. Video commercial people and I and it and it was not easy. And so I did not make that mistake twice. But I will say I made my first film harder than it needed to be. I'm I'm pleased with the end result, but it was harder than it needed to be because I did bring up some people that I worked with, and there really are different mindsets, skill sets. To come out and have amazing craft service and cranes and all that on commercials is one thing. An indie film shot in Waco is a totally different beast. And so I don't care how much we get along. Um it I didn't do that again. You'll see that I then worked with people that worked in film on my next three three films. It was um it was film folks. So that's a great question. Um yeah, and I had been given that advice, and I had I had choices in each, and I I more often than not went with the person I had a relationship with, and I'd say 50% of those I regretted, to be honest. Um so yeah, it's interesting. And then I worked with um uh I just did interviews, you know, like on Victor. Um, my second film, I just looked at reels and stuff, and Byron Shaw was just the cinematographer that I liked his work. We hit it off, and it was just a dream, like it was amazing. You know, his crew just completely understands all the nuances of putting in really hard days in independent film, and so yeah, it's it's different, different, different mindset, different beast, like going, you know, 20 days is not is not a day or two days, it's just completely different.
James Duke:And how did and how did Victor come to be? It was it was brought to you because it's based on true story, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, true story. So Greg Wilkerson and I had done a documentary a decade before, and um, and we had talked about and met with his father about remaking the cross and the switchblade. I don't know if you remember that film from way, way back. And um, and then his father had passed away. He didn't want to do that, but he wanted to sort of be in that universe. It's like if he had alien, he wanted to make Prometheus. Like, so we made an adjacent film uh that is a true story, Victor Torres, that kind of happened five years after that story with Wilkerson. Greg and I had uh stayed in touch, had a great time on this Life in a Box documentary that we'd done a decade before. And and then now, you know, I I had a a feature under my belt, which was great. So it wasn't he didn't have to take the risk of a first time. I was no longer a first-time filmmaker, and uh, which is helpful. And then that was crazy because that was a you know a bigger film, a period piece. Um, and uh yeah, it was it was awesome. And I love doing true stories, and it was really interesting because Victor's still alive. So I was able to, he had written a memoir, but then I interviewed him and and and based the um the script on um more than just what was in his memoir.
James Duke:That's what that's what I was gonna ask you. So you you wrote the script as well, and and when you're dealing with a with a real life subject matter, did did you find you said you said you enjoy making them? I'm just curious, is are there any um do you approach it differently at all? Because in that case, right, the person's still alive, you're able to interact with them. Did you feel a um uh I was speaking to someone else about I think Brian Ball or someone about telling true life stories? And like, does it does it feel like a different level of like a caretaker, if you will, in terms of like you're telling this other person's story and you want to get it right? Is it is it different in in that sense, making those kind of films?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've been fortunate, I've heard others that have done films with you know true stories that are um where the people are alive. Um Victor was gracious and kind of understood um the process, you know, it was tricky because you know he'd come to set, and it's weird. Here's somebody, you know, playing you, you know, the young, the young you, and um but I feel like you can't be you have to make a great movie, and that was the thing that I said. I said, look, we're either we make a documentary, and everything is just you know, we're just gonna spend the time making a documentary, or we're gonna make a feature film based on this true story. Um, but it's not a bio pick, like we've got to um, yeah, there were three guys in the gang. I need that to be one guy because we don't have time and nobody in the audience wants to hear you know the nuances of these three guys. This this all three guys represent the you know the bad guy in the gang. And so we need that to be that. So I was writing Thomas Ward, who uh also wrote uh Serenia with me, uh also wrote that script with me. And so it was nice to have um you know somebody to to bounce. This this latest film that I wrote with Brian Bellmap um is a true story, but it's 1880s. Oh, yeah. And so, yeah, so um it's called Catherine, and it's about uh true story of this uh Catherine Bushnell, who is a doctor, which tells you, you know, how amazing she is in the 1880s, and she ends up in Chicago in Hell's Half Acre, exposed to prostitution, specifically forced prostitution, specifically young girls, ends up uh in Wisconsin exposing um basically trafficking in the in the lumber camps, and true story, and totally unknown. Like nobody knows. Catherine Bushnell is not a household name. And so that was interesting because you have somebody that nobody knows, right? And it's a historical figure, and you only have so much. And we had uh an author that wrote a book of historical fiction on it that we needed the rights to that actually was how I came to the project. She's 94, her name's Lori Lutz, and I the first time we're sending notes, I go, What have I done? I am I have somebody who wrote historical fiction who spent a decade of their life researching this person, they care so much about Catherine Bushnell, and they're going to, you know, not understand. They've never read a script before. The best notes that I may have ever gotten on a screenplay was from a 94-year-old Lori Lutz and uh Amy Header that's at the um Center for Biblical Equality. And they have no film, and I ended up getting like incredible insight and notes, and they understood. They said, they said, uh, oh, I see why you because she goes to Denver and Chicago, and we had to make it one place, and she at 94 says, Um, oh, I understand why you just got to move the story along. So anyway, I've actually had pretty positive experiences with with um true stories. Of course, a single frame is a documentary, and that's a whole other thing where you have a true, you know, somebody who's alive and on camera, and that's a whole other um thing. But um yeah, I don't know if I answered. I don't even know what our original question was. We went down a rugby trail of true stories, but I love true stories. The other thing too is I feel for me, in the and I know a lot of people that do this and do this well, if I'm gonna, if there's gonna be a faith element for me in a film, I really want it to be true story. Because like Victor, right? I'm playing it in all sorts of places, and in Victor, it's a redemptive story, and it's through his faith that he overcomes drugs and and uh and it's true. And what was great was uh I had in QA's, you know, all of these would do like a limited theatrical and then go to Netflix or go to whatever streaming service. And so there would be screenings and you would be there, and I would get somebody saying, like, I feel like it's a little heavy-handed that Victor had that moment where he um, you know, kind of had his come to Jesus moment in that film. It's great because I said, Well, that's what happened, and here's his phone number, you know. So it's like it's like, you know, it's like you can talk to him. I I just I'm just telling a true story, you know, and so that can be problematic for you. And I know not everyone comes over uh drugs through faith, but that's this story, and um, and so I'm just telling a true story, and so for me, um, really Victor's the only one that kind of deals that directly, but because it was a true story, it was wonderful because anybody that not only either had an agnostic viewpoint but a hostile viewpoint, it was just not debatable because it's it's what happened. You cannot like it and you don't have to see the film, but you can't say we're being didactic or you know, I'm just I'm just telling a true story, and because he's alive, it's it's incredible because I would follow that up with you know, you can talk with him if you you can ask him, you know. This is how you know this is uh this is this is what really really happened in his life. And the other thing that's cool for that particular story, this happened when he's 18 and he's in his 60s, so not only is it a true story, but it stuck. Like what happened there completely transformed the rest of his life, and that's nice. So I'm always interested in that. That's why I like this Catherine film because um, you know, it deals with a really strong female character, it deals with a heavy, heavy issue of you know, young girls forced into prostitution, but it's a true story. Whereas if you dealt with that and it wasn't true, I think you open yourself up to all sorts of criticism of like you're creating a you're kind of trying to create something to manipulate or that, and and so anyway, I love true story films.
James Duke:You I want to um I want to talk about uh Amanda and Jack go glamping because I yeah, yeah, there's there's a backstory to it that I think is sure I want to kind of unpack. You yeah, part of what I was saying earlier is you're I feel like it sounds to me, based on me getting to know you, is that your your family hasn't been on a bit of an adventure journey.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah.
James Duke:And so uh tell us a little bit about the origins of your film, Amanda and Jack. Yeah, because I'm I'm fascinated about them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, so we lived on, so after Kirstis' mom passed, we moved to Austin. I made uh Victor uh made a single frame, and we had, you know, coming from LA, you don't nobody owns land, right? You know, I grew up in Fullerton, and then we lived in you know Hollywood and Silver Lake and Studio City, like nobody's talking about land ownership. And here we are, here we are in Austin, and now you know it this probably isn't the case anymore because it's blown up so much. But back then, just outside of town in Elgin, you could buy land for just you couldn't buy a single apartment in LA for what we bought 25 acres of land for. And so it started with that, and then we, you know, we were intrigued by the tiny house movement and cut to. We're living out there on this land in a in a refurbished, we refurbished a Spartan trailer, and so we move out there with our kids. You know, they're like six and well, let's see, but that time they're like 14 and uh 11, yeah, something like that, right? So we move out. We were about to all four of us go into the Spartan, and the day I think two days before, we were thinking, like, what are we doing? Like this is crazy. And May Lee, our daughter, we sort of talked with her about what would you think if we got Mason an airstream and that be his room? And so it's sort of like she gave permission for Mason to have his own room. So we had the so Mason had the airstream adjacent to the Spartan, and that's how we lived. And we lived there a couple years, like 240 square feet. Wow, and uh yeah, it was wild. And we called it Green Acres because we were rookies, and uh, and it really just I learned a lot and it was very difficult. And I started riding, and what I did just for fun, we had donkeys, and then we had alpacas, and so with the donkeys, I they just why why don't why not? Donkeys are awesome, donkeys are amazing, and guess how much a donkey James. Guess how much a donkey costs to you have all this land, right? My wife is like Snow White loves animals, so she's the one that suggests let's get a donkey. So we look it up. Guess what a donkey costs delivered on Craigslist? 20 bucks. 20, 20 bucks. You can get a donkey for 20 delivered to your house.
SPEAKER_02:Are you being serious?
SPEAKER_00:I'm dead serious. Our donkeys, and so I named them Donkey and Yodie. So it was Donkey Yody, and so we had uh, and I love them, but they just I had such a hard time with them that I started writing a blog and I called it stories about my ass. And so that's what started all this was I was writing these stories and calling it stories about my ass, and it was like my struggles and all of that.
James Duke:And so you bought you bought a bunch of so because they were so cheap two donkeys. Oh, two two donkeys, two donkeys, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Even though they were yeah, and then and then Laverne and Shirley, which were the alpacas, and so so donkey was the first star of Amanda, what was originally called When Jack Went Glap Glamping, that was the original film title, When Jack Went Glamping, and so I pivoted from I was still writing the stories about my ass, but then I started writing the script for Amanda and Jack, and uh and I wrote it there, you know, in in in Elgin in Bastrop County, and um that so that's kind of the origin in that one. Like if in Sarony we had the music first, in this we had the set and the donkey first, and then I built everything, right? It's back to what do you have? Like, what's the tool in your hand? I'm like, I've got a clamping retreat and I've got a donkey. Um, let's let me write a story that takes place here. But here's the hilarious thing, James. What I didn't so the film gets financed and cast and great, everything happens, and I realize, oh my gosh, I just made a movie that happens in my home. Where does my family live? I had to kick my family, I had to kick my family out of our home to film a movie. So we had to get an Airbnb in town for it. I'm like, sorry, sorry guys. I dad's gonna film a movie in your in your room, you know, in the house. And so, yeah, so that's that's how that happened. And that's a good case of uh a friend. So this is a nice way of blending those two stories. Abe Martinez is somebody that I'd worked with as a cinematographer on some commercial stuff, but he does TV and film, and so it was the perfect blend of like a friend who's talented, who knows film. So he was my DP on that, and that was super fun, like to get to shoot that film with Abe. So that's great. I brought it all together on on my fourth, fourth film. So but yeah, that's that's how glamping came about. So we shot it, shot it on our on our land.
James Duke:And that's I think that's on Netflix or Amazon Prime or Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_00:It just came off Netflix, it was on Netflix for years, and um, and uh and that started did like a limited limited theatrical and then went right there, but now yeah, I think it's Amazon and yeah, it's Damie David Arquette and uh Amy Acker, who was also in Saronia, who's so talented, she's amazing.
James Duke:Now when you when you're shooting when you were shooting a um uh comedy, um yeah, it's very different. Yeah, I'm curious if it um and and then maybe you can give us a little backstory, maybe even with the the other films to it in comparison. But do you um uh do you rehearse? Do you want to catch stuff kind of fresh right on set? Um, I'm different directors have different opinions on this. What's your what's your process?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, on the comedy, so I wanted to set tone. So like I had David come out and stay in the um yurt in the glamping retreat, and he tells the story, and it's hilarious. He got terrified. He was like complete, and it was literally like in character, it was the best thing I did because he needed no direction to be this guy that does not want to be glamping because I just had him spend a night and he did not want to be glamping. So um we actually it's interesting you say that because I'm realizing now the scenes I rehearsed were not the comedic scenes, so like there's a kind of a heartfelt scene where they're in the Spartan, which is weird. I will say it's very weird, and I didn't realize this until I'm shooting and I'm like when David goes, Well, we're filming, and it's the bed that I sleep in in our Spartan trailer, and he's going and David's like, Which side do you sleep on? And I go, This is weird. I go, This is I didn't think I did not think this through of like directing people in my, you know, this is really bizarre.
James Duke:At least tell me at least tell me you change the sheets. That's the most yeah, we did.
SPEAKER_00:We did, we did, absolutely, absolutely. The uh, but yeah, we rehearsed the the scene where they're having a glass of wine and sort of it's more of a thoughtful scene. We rehearsed those and Then spent a couple days together out there and sort of built you know, Aiden Canto was there as well, and just sort of spent time getting to know each other. Um, and got to work with June Squibb on that film, which she's amazing.
James Duke:She's incredible. Oh, yeah, she was in um what was that movie?
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah. What do you think? So I try to keep the spontaneity. I didn't rehearse, and I love that you're asking this question because I I don't know that I thought of it so strategically, but in hindsight, I never like fully rehearsed something that needed a good punch. I just sort of broadly uh got there. Part of that, you know, it's an indie film and you don't have a ton, but part of it was trying to keep those whatever's meant to be funny fresh.
unknown:Yeah.
James Duke:How how collaborative are you on set? You're, I mean, that one of the things that I think is interesting about a writer director is you have some writers who hold to their lines very precious, and you have others who are like, no, I'll I'll you know, we'll workshop it. We'll whatever for you personally, the fact that you um uh wrote the scripts as well, are are you uh really collaborative with your actors on set, or do you are you more like, hey, this is how I wrote it. I want you to say the words that I wrote.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm not the say the words that I wrote. Um, but it'd be misleading to say that I'm like full improv, even though I personally have now fallen in love with and teach improv. I am not like a big uh let's just you know, broad stroke. This is just a map. So I'm somewhere in between, I think. Where I like to do a lot of that is prior to shoot day. So table read to me is huge. And table read is where I go, hey guys, I'm not precious. Now is the time to bring these things up, and then I'll try to talk with each actor separately in terms of their character, their story arc, where they're going, how they feel about it. And then um, and then they will uh yeah, have have insight. And then there's all on a comedy, especially, then there's a little bit of playful, like one of my favorite improvs in that is improvised that was brought up day of is in glamping. I mean, it's not a profound thing, but it just makes me laugh. Is that when David's coming out of the forest, he puts hand sanitizer on, and it was just something that he had in his pocket, I have it in my pocket. You know, this is pre-COVID when David and I were the only people that thought Purel was awesome. So uh it was kind of an inside joke. And then he on one take just it was like he just needs to walk out of the forest, and then he just uses Purel, and it was hilarious because it and it was hilarious because it was on point with his character, like this guy's a little melonic, and like how do you you know coming out of the forest as a germaphobe was great. So there were those kind of moments that you tried to, you know, be open for that kind of improvisation, but I'm not like off the rails, like hey, any anything. You know what's interesting? I and this is on the commercial thing, and I'd be interested in I bet there's other, I wonder if there's others like this. This is a problem I have, and and I want to use this opportunity to find out if I'm alone. It's that on set, I'm really nice. Okay, I try and be really welcoming, kind, just that's my vibe, right? On set, especially on commercials and music videos. It gives the false impression that I want input from a variety of people. And so, so I I now and I started to do this, I will tell my A D I go, look, somebody on set is going to like chime in, somebody like on crew is gonna chime in with an idea. And the reason is I give the false impression that I want input.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:And so it like my kindness backfires at time. So like I really need strong ADs, and I talk to them. I'm like, look, I'm I it's just my MO. I'm not playing a role. I'm just like, I like people, I enjoy it, let's all get along. I really want on set, like I want everybody to be working together. I hate it when there's day players. Um, I have this huge thing at the start where I say we treat cell phones like cigarettes. If you need to use your cell phone, it's over here. Here's the you know, if you're a smoker, there's the smoking place, and that's where you do it. And then cell phones, I'm militant about like you go over there and do it. Do not, in between takes, bring out your phone. Do not do that, especially like the clapper. You know, you'll have a day player clapper, and he's on his phone, and it's like you're right by the actors, like you're this is you're right there, and you're killing it. Anyway, I don't know if uh I would love to hear if I'm alone in this struggle, or if anybody else is like the kindness like backfires on you. I've had some hilarious like people that just would inappropriately throw out an idea and it's just comedy. Yeah, totally, yeah, like that.
James Duke:You know what you should do, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Or like a you know, a guy that's doing an amazing job, you know, is dolly grip, but then all of a sudden he's like, you know, it'd be funny, or you know, it'd be a good idea. I'm like, oh bro, this is not. I have given the false impression that I am looking for your ideas right now, which is and then you sound like a jerk, so you know that's a weird because I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna come back and do that. So the the answer is I tell the ad, I go, this will happen. And it's hilarious because then it happens, I go, you're right. Yeah, if you said that, that would happen. So I just sort of rely on a great AD to like keep it sharp and let it be known that um my nice guy thing, it does not mean that I do not have a very clear vision of exactly what we're doing today, and we can have fun and it can feel light, but it doesn't mean we don't know what's going on, you know what what's happening, or like, hey, anybody got some ideas? I don't know what we're gonna do here.
James Duke:So that sounds like the right process. I I I've often uh been in the past, I I have been told that um uh uh like quieter directors need louder, stronger ads, and then uh louder directors need quieter, softer ads. Like there's a there's a balance there when you you want that ad to um to kind of serve the opposite of you so that you can be unleashed, do what you do. And you don't you don't need to you don't need to be play the bad guy, or you don't need to be the one that's that's uh you know sending everyone away with all these different ideas. You have someone who's able because imagine if you have an AD who's equally like you, just putting putting off vibe of oh, we're all collaborating, we're all making, you know, like it could be.
SPEAKER_00:I thought I thought it'd be a good idea, like bring a friend that nobody knows, give them a job, and then fire them dramatically on the first day just to like scare everybody, and then I can just go on and be nice the rest of the time, just do a big dramatic, like have them cry and walk offset. I'm just like, oh man, let's let's stay focused.
James Duke:That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Cast a cast an actor just for the sole purpose, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Totally, yeah. Yeah, what's this on the call sheet?
James Duke:Fired guy fired the number two on the call. Yeah, exactly. That was amazing. The fact that you're not in the rat race, right? The fact that you're not living in LA, you're living in the rat race, uh, and you're able to kind of be out of it. Um, do you feel like it gives you better perspective as an artist? Like you feel like uh for whatever you might lose by not being able to go to In N Out, do you feel like in a I do miss that? I will say I miss that.
SPEAKER_00:And Mexican food.
James Duke:Those are the two things. Not great Mexican food here. But do you feel like, in spite of that, do you feel like these lived experiences and what you're actually living now, do you feel like it it actually um creates new colors on your palette as an artist that you can draw from? Um is that is that something that is a goal of yours, or is it just hey man, I'm living my living my life, just do it my no, it's definitely it's definitely a goal, but I want to combine both of your questions.
SPEAKER_00:I want to answer both of them in that does it open up creatively? Absolutely, absolutely. Like I, you know, most of my friends here are Portuguese, they have totally different perspective. I'm trying to learn the language, I'm struggling, I'm failing, I I see the most beautiful things, I I dive into my deepest insecurities. Um, you know, Kierce and I are close, we don't have a faith community, and that's really hard. Um, so it's the in some ways the best of times, the worst of times. Hey, I should write that down. Best of times, worst of times. That's a good start. Um but here's the on continuing the honesty. I don't know how optimistic I am about it because I think I am in a golden era of that creativity and all of that. I don't know if anybody's looking for that, right? Like, I don't know what to do with that. Like, I feel like I'm on this island and I've got all this stuff going on and the the the struggles and the beauty and that, but I'm on an island literally and figuratively, and so the beauty of me not being in the rat race also is I I'm not in the game. Like I've you know, it for someone like me, you could say on one hand, like amazing for films. The other thing you could say is like not none of you know I missed it on Netflix, maybe, or you know, like I've seen one of them, I've seen like not a monster, you know, uh just amazing that I've made a career out of it and I've done it, but nobody's like uh oh no, he's on an island, let's get him back, you know, because I'm not in the rat race, and so that is the career side of it is challenging. So it's tough because what's the perfect balance? Like I've got your second question. I feel like I'm there's a lot of beauty happening. I I'm wrestling, I'm I'm writing, I'm I'm struggling, I'm I'm seeing beautiful things. I come home from surfing and I'm like, this is God is good, and you know, and I see these things. But then it's like yeah, yeah, but then what do I do with that? Like, what's my next, you know, if Catherine happens, that'd be great, but what if it doesn't? Yeah, right. And what if this doc doesn't go anywhere? Um, I'm not in a position, you know, there's not like the Azurian Film Commission that is like gonna, you know, give me a gig. And so it's pretty extreme. Like the answer to your like I'm I'm going, I'm swinging for the fences on it because I'm extremely out of the rat race. Like uh, you know, top top five people you know that are not in a rat race right now. Like I have, you know, I'm gonna walk out, you know, onto this. If you could see where I, you know, would walk out after this, you're like, you're not in the rat race. But the flip side is I'm not, you know, I'm not headed to set tomorrow either. So, you know, I'm shooting my own things and doing that. And I I miss you know, community, it really is community. That's the thing I I miss. And so my favorite thing, people go, what's your favorite thing? Writing, this, that, and I go, day on set. Oh my gosh, actors and that, everything from the you know, costume designer to that, the collaboration. I'm just like, oh, I love it, love it. And then even the editorial I've worked with. I mean, if you look at the editors, I've like where I am in my career and the editors I've worked with, there's a huge talk about like working with you know, Sandra Adair, who's done every one of Link Letters films, you know, and then does my film. I tell her she says I'm I'm her second favorite director. And um, so I've been really fortunate, but that relationship I love. Yeah, and so the flip side is like I'm on an island, and so how do I and the best version would be I just travel, you know. Being empty ness, I can just, you know, when a job comes, I travel, but we have not that pump has not been primed back back open. There's no there's no Disney, there's no commercial, and you know, this uh isn't a season where something other than that I write somebody's you know tracking down they're looking for a young up-and-comer, you know, they're not they're not searching for me on an island. So I don't know. I don't know how I mean it's gonna be it's gonna be really interesting. You know, we've all we haven't even been here six months. We've been in Portugal for a year, and the creative side, the soulful side, the the therapeutic side is high. Career, I'm hopeful because I believe getting back to the teaching, I believe that if you don't have that, you're just gonna make crap. Like if you're if you're in LA only seeing what everybody else is doing in that rat race, I think quickly, and I don't mean this in a judgmental way, but you're just gonna start churning out the same thing as everyone else. And you know, I'm optimistic, and what I want to believe is that the greatest stuff would come from somebody living on an island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Yeah, you know, I just am not there, I just don't know. I haven't done it yet. I wish I could say I have. You so I'm getting there, I'm in process.
James Duke:Yeah, and and you know this to be true, and it's just something that I think bears repeating. I've said it before, and and in that this uh it's important for the in this industry, is like there everyone wants to know, everyone's looking for the next thing, the new voice, right? And it's and that's always since the beginning of the business, they've all it's always been about finding the next person, next step, next step, like who's the new voice, right? Um, and in the mean, in the meanwhile, um you have uh someone like you who's been in the business, who is now living life at a different at a different clip. And it's you are uh like gaining all these experiences, you're developing yourself as a person in terms of just your mental health and and and and just everything going on with your life. And that that is that is feeding your soul and developing, you know, filling up that cup that now you have more stories to tell. And to your point, we don't know if they're interested, they you know, we don't know if they're interested in those new stories, but I but I will say this it sounds like you're coming from a place of real um of real peace. And it and it sounds like you're coming from a place of of wholeness, which is something that I think for a lot of us younger in the rat race that that are listen, maybe listening to this podcast, um, that is something that I think um it cannot be overstated. And that is as a person of faith working in this business, you cannot find your identity in your work. You cannot find your identity in this business. Your wholeness, your completeness, your peace cannot be in what you do, it has to come from your identity and your relationship and how you identify with Christ and those around you. Your thoughts?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I think that's the you nailed it. I mean, I I think that's it. You have to disconnect those things. And I'm reminded too, like the garbage in, garbage out, right? Just super, super simple. It happens in our lives, but it also happens artistically, right? Like if you're not feeding yourself with good, true, and beautiful things, uh, it's a lot to ask for you to create something good, true, and beautiful. So, you know, input input equals output. So I love that.
James Duke:I love that. That is a great place to I think to wrap up our conversation and uh Brandon, man, you I I love you, buddy. This has been a fantastic thing. I'm so uh I'm so just so so impressed with your heart and your story and just everything that uh you've done. And and uh I know uh so many people who just love you, and I and I know why. You just you have this you have this presence about you, and I and I think that the people on that island get to experience that right now. They get to come in.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm happy for you.
James Duke:Come visit. I would love to be come on out, come. I'm gonna look for I'm gonna look for for flights and we'll see.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, do it. Yeah, direct from Boston or from Newark. So come on, yeah.
James Duke:We'll do a we'll do a uh a follow-up podcast one-on-one, be like live from the island.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that'd be great. We're here, we're at the retreat. The source island retreats it happening. Here we are. Yeah, that'd be awesome.
James Duke:Hey man, this has been fantastic. I I I really appreciate you giving me your time. I always like to close our podcasts by praying for our guests. I wonder if you would allow me to do that now.
SPEAKER_00:Uh absolutely. I will take it, James. Thank you.
James Duke:Let's pray. Heavenly Father, thank you for today and thank you for Brandon. Thank you for just um just who he is and uh how you have uniquely created him to tell stories, um, uh tell stories that resonate with the human heart. Uh God, the the way you have crafted him to visualize um stories that um matter uh in in in in in ways that sometimes don't always um uh connect at first, but but the more we um um watch them and and and and uh ruminate over them, they they continue to seep in truths. And sometimes, God, that's that is one of the most difficult things for an And yet it just seems like Brandon is just it just comes naturally for him. So we thank you for thank you for that. Thank you for the way he sees life. And uh God, we just pray you would uh bless his time on the island. Bless him his relationship with his wife and his kids. Um God, uh, we pray that this would be a fruitful season for them as a couple, um, for his wife's um work as as well as for Brandon's. We pray that uh they would connect with people on the island and that not only would their soul be refreshed, but they would be a blessing and benefit to those around them. And and God, we do pray that um for this new project he's working on, for all um the other future endeavors he has, that we pray that as he develops these stories that you birth inside of him, we pray, God, that you would send the audience, that you would send the investors, that you would send the other people who um would also resonate with the stories that you're giving him, that that um that draw out so much in us. And and and we pray, God, that that uh he'd be able to uh continue to create works of truth, goodness, and beauty uh wherever he is uh in this world. And uh we just thank you for just this time. Just pray a blessing upon their entire family. And uh we love you, God. We pray this in Jesus' name and you promise to be standing. Amen. Thank you for listening to the Act One podcast, celebrating over 20 years as the premier training program for Christians in Hollywood. Act One is a Christian community of entertainment industry professionals who train and equip storytellers to create works of truth, goodness, and beauty. The Act One program is a division of Master Media International. To financially support the mission of Act One or to learn more about our programs, visit us online at Act OneProgram.com. And to learn more about the work of Master Media, go to Mastermedia.com.