Director D.J. Caruso and Producer Simon Swart

Act One Podcast - Episode 25 - Interview with Director D.J. Caruso and Producer Simon Swart of the new film, REDEEMING LOVE.

Based on the bestselling novel by Francine Rivers, REDEEMING LOVE is a powerful story of relentless love and perseverance as a young couple’s relationship clashes with the harsh realities of the California Gold Rush of 1850. It is a life- changing story of the power of unconditional and all-consuming love. Coming to theaters January 21, 2022, REDEEMING LOVE shows there is no brokenness that love can’t heal.

D.J. Caruso came up through the directing ranks in television by helming shows such as THE SHIELD, HIGH INCIDENT and DARK ANGEL. He then went on to helm major box office hits including XXX: THE RETURN OF XANDER CAGE (2017), I AM NUMBER FOUR (2011), EAGLE EYE (2008), DISTURBIA (2007), and TAKING LIVES (2004).

Simon Swart is a producer known for REDEEMING LOVE (2022), I AM ALL GIRLS (2021) and I CAN ONLY IMAGINE (2018). His production company, Nthibah Pictures is a global media company driving the development of superior content for all audiences. With offices in both Johannesburg and Los Angeles, they are committed to producing movies with broad audience appeal that also speak to the serious social issues of today. Prior to launching his production company, Simon was an executive at Fox with over twenty years of experience in distribution, marketing and production. 

The Act One Podcast provides insight and inspiration on the business and craft of Hollywood from a Christian perspective.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

I think for your audience and for the writers and the directors, is like, how do we infuse our message into films that are not going to be labeled in a certain way? And I always say, people always say to me, Oh, well, what's your favorite faith-based movie that you've ever seen? And I'll say, Field of Dreams. And they'll look at me and go, That's not a faith-based movie. And I go, watch it again. A man hears a voice, he acts on a lee he acts on his faith of what he hears about this voice, and he does something incredible. And what happens is that metaphor for baseball is all we're trying to do is get home, right? We're all just trying to start at home place and get home. And so to me, that was an incredibly strong Christian movie, though no one in the mainstream might think that.

James Duke 0:44

This is the Act One podcast. I'm your host, James Duke. Thank you for listening. Please don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and leave us a good review. My guests today are the filmmakers behind the new film Redeeming Love, director DJ Caruso and producer Simon Eastwort. Based on the best-selling novel by Francine Rivers, Redeeming Love is a powerful story of relentless love and perseverance as a young couple's relationship clashes with the harsh realities of the California Gold Rush of 1850. It is a life-changing story of the power of unconditional and all-consuming love. And it's in theaters on Friday, January 21st. We hope you check it out. DJ Caruso came up through the directing ranks in television by helming shows such as The Shield, High Incident, and Dark Angel. He then went on to helm major box office hits, including Triple X, The Return of Xander Cage, Disturbia, Eagle Eye, I Am Number Four, and Taking Lies. Simon Stewart is a producer who has produced such films as I Am All Girls and I Can Only Imagine. And prior to starting his production company, Simon was an executive at Fox with over 20 years of experience in distribution, marketing, and producing. I had a great time talking to DJ and Simon about redeeming love and a bunch of other things. So I think you'll get a lot out of this conversation. Enjoy. Simon DJ, welcome to the Act One podcast. It's such a pleasure to have you guys with me today.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Thank you. Good to be here. Yeah, thank you. Good to be here. Nice to speak with you.

James Duke 2:20

So we're really looking forward to your new film. Both of you, um, you guys are the filmmaking team behind um this new film that's coming out called Redeeming Love. And um uh a lot of people uh have been talking about the excitement behind this uh film for a long time because this book has been uh a very um successful, very popular book over the years. So I'd love to just start right there, you guys. Um, and maybe Simon with you, I know you're one of the producers. Um how did this project first come to you? How did you land this? Because this this this book, um, it's kind of there's been different uh attempts to make it, correct? And and you guys finally were able to figure it out. Tell us a little bit how this project came to be.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Yeah, let me see if I can set DJ up as well as I could as well as I can. I actually was aware of this project through Cindy Bond. And Cindy and I partnered up on I Can Only Imagine Way Back When. We've known each other for a very long time. And we were talking about this movie six or seven years ago. And Cindy, Cindy had a has a great relationship with Francine. Actually, at Fox back in the day, we did uh a couple of Francine's books as well, uh, when I was a studio executive. And uh honestly, the challenge with this book is that it's it's fairly controversial. And uh getting the script right was very was pretty difficult. And I would say five or six years ago, I remember meeting with Cindy and some of uh Francine's team, and we couldn't quite get the script right. And you know, Cindy persevered and pushed on, and I went on to do other projects. Uh and Cindy and I obviously stayed in contact, and we reconnected uh uh we reconnected sort of a little bit later in the process on Redeeming Love. And when she told me that DJ was connected attached to direct, um honestly, for for us as producers and financiers, we poked up and we're like, wait a minute, DJ is an incredibly talented director um hit and he has major commercial hits. Um so I have to read this version of the script. And one of the things we discussed five or six years ago is getting the script right. Maybe Francine was the right person to write the script. Um, and as it turns out, Francine and DJ wrote this version of the script. And once we heard DJ was involved, and once we read the script, we were like, oh, this is this is a winner. This is true to the book. Uh, you know, it's very hard converting a book to a to a screenplay, to take a 400-page book and convert it to a 110-page script. Um, and I feel, you know, for us, we came back on and we came in with both feet once uh you know DJ had a creative, we once we found out what DJ's creative vision for the movie was, and we actually believed that uh we had someone who could really bring this bring this beloved book to the screen in a way that was worthy of the material.

James Duke 5:23

The uh for you, DJ, did were you first introduced to the book uh just as a as a as a novel, or did someone first approach you with uh directing it as a job?

SPEAKER_04 5:37

Well, I was a pro uh my it's a it's a funny story. My wife, um, who was working on a a young life's retreat where she was taking care of some of the the babies uh that these young girls had had and and uh up in northern California, and she went into the store and the bookstore, and one of the people that she was working with said, Oh, here's Redeeming Love. I'm sure you've read this book. And my wife said, Oh no, I have not, I've never read the book. So she got the book and she read it that night. I think she'd read it in about two days. And a couple weeks later, we were having our anniversary, uh, and we're kind of walking on the beach, and she said, I read the greatest book. And she started telling me all about it. And like my wife is, you know, she's a good reader, but she every single detail from fade in to fade out, she told me everything. And I was like, wow, this is really a very compelling story. It's very sounds very difficult and dark, and and it was. And she said, Please, would you just read it if there's any way, any way this can become a movie? I just think it's such a powerful, powerful book. And uh, it turns out that's sort of the history of Francine's book. I mean, people read it and pass it down and pass it on to other people and mothers and granddaughters, and it's just become that kind of book that's such a um, such a positive book that deals with it with some very dark subject matter. Um, and so that's how I was introduced to the book. And uh, and then I went and met Cindy, and then Simon and Cindy partnered up and kind of came together to finance the movie and working closely with Francine. She she had written the script, and and sometimes obviously it's her story and it's her baby, but as a a novelist and translating to the screen, sometimes uh I ended up going back in and putting a lot more stuff in from the book that Francine had left out, um, just probably over the course of sort of putting it through. And she's like, Oh wow, you put that back in, and this is great. And so then we kind of worked together once we we we got it to gel. And um, you know, there's some some some mate mine uh uh minor changes that might seem major, but it also helped it translate better into cinema. And I and um I think one of the proudest moments I had was after the first screening, Francine called me and said, Um, I could never have imagined that the movie could be this good. It's better than I ever thought it would be. And that to me was when you could do that and the author tells you that, that's that's then you know you at least you did well by at least one person. Yeah. And my wife still, and my wife still loves me too.

James Duke 7:52

So that's yeah, yeah, that would probably be the uh the more important no, but that actually is uh high praise. Can you talk a little bit about um you know, we have a lot of screenwriters that listen to this, aspiring screenwriters that listen to this podcast? Um, sounds like a a that's a different kind of process to co-write with the original author. Um what was that like? What were some of the unique challenges uh uh that you experienced uh in the writing of the script screenplay?

SPEAKER_04 8:24

Well, as you approach it, obviously there's there's a reverence towards the original material and having, you know, uh knowing that Francine had sort of done, she had done a draft or two or maybe three without me. And so when I came in and read it and met with Cindy the first time, I just said, Hey, I really like this. I feel like the screenplay is not servicing the vision of the book as well as it could be. And I know that sounds funny with Francine who had written it, but I think because you get studio notes or you get notes from this person, and Francine tries to get comment accommodate the notes, and so we kind of went back and stripped it back down. And the most difficult part, um, what Francine, by the way, was amazing to work with and very, very collaborative. But I think it was more about the restructuring. So I suggested a restructuring that would have the flashbacks kind of come instead of jamming all this story up in the front and then trying to take off from there. So it was really more about restructuring and a little bit more of a nonlinear approach that I think I brought in, and Francine embraced that. Um, but she was great. I mean, it, you know, um, you know, she would kind of circle and improve. Okay, this is great. I love this line. Oh, if she can say it this way, so I would send pages and she would kind of send little notes back. So it worked, it worked really, really well, better better than I could have ever imagined.

James Duke 9:37

So there were there were no significant, we're gonna cut this whole thing out. This this is terrible.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

No, no, there were there was there wasn't there weren't any of those moments, but like I said, in a really interesting way, when I when I had gone back and now I knew I was gonna work on it and reread the script the book again. I literally said, Oh, why would we leave this out? Why would we not? And a lot of it was putting a little emphasis back on her past and understanding what her mother had done and how her mother had made some mistakes, but tried as best she could to love her and what led her daughter to go down a really horrible road, even though her mother loved her so much. Um, that was really where I wanted to focus the opening of the movie so that you would understand um Angel or Sarah's plight.

James Duke 10:20

Simon, you were gonna say?

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Yeah, I think I think what DJ and Francine crafted creatively, I mean, converting from a book anytime is very difficult for a screenwriter because so much of a book happens in your imagination. There's a lot of dialogue, especially in something like Redeeming Love, where you have one of your lead characters having an ongoing conversation with God. You know, and uh cinematically, how do you show that without it going going elsewhere? And and the reality is as human beings, we all hear the voice of God differently. To some of us, it's Morgan Freeman, some people it's Charlton Heston. I mean, we all we all experience that in our in our spiritual journey very differently. So, you know, how do you deal with that? And I think uh I think uh DJ and Francine came up with some great ideas and cues where you knew Michael was talking to God. You do see him openly pray, but you don't really hear the voice of God the way you do in the book because it it pulls you out of the it pulls you out of the the the the narrative. Yeah, DJ, DJ, I know that was something you guys struggled with, right?

SPEAKER_04 11:27

Yeah, I just I just again uh coming from a um uh angel Sarah's story, Angel's story is really incredibly complex, and you can see the structure of the beginning and the middle of the end of where she goes. Michael, the character of Michael was a little bit more difficult in his simplicity, in that he he falls in love with this woman, he believes God wants him to him uh to be with her. And then it was really sort of how do we get how do we show the cracks in Michael and show the humanity in this character um without having conversations with God where God actually speaks back to him and answers. And like Simon said, it was really important to me that I would always say God speaks to everyone in in in completely different ways, and it's not necessarily the voice of Morgan Freeman or or who it is. So we did make those connections, and you'll see it cinematically, but it wasn't such a literal conversation with God, it was more about using the the power of the camera and cinema and the music and the attitude and the actor to understand that he he's speaking with God.

James Duke 12:29

Yeah, yeah. The the challenge, right, of making a a turning a novel into a cinematic experience is one thing, but turning uh a best-selling, incredibly popular and for many people deeply personal uh novel um also has its own challenges because, like you said, you have to find a way to visualize and make it this cinematic, this with driving action, take these 400 pages and summarize it into like a two-hour experience for people. But this other people, you know, people read this book and they they visualize how they think the characters look with these moments, these significant moments in the book. Um are uh did you you know, working with Francine? Um, was there ever a time when you guys considered uh um the audience's experience with the book and and were like, we want to make sure that we um there are specific moments in the film that are very, very almost you know, identical to what to the feedback we've received from um her passionate uh fans about the book. Where was did you take the fans uh into consideration in their experience when you were kind of crafting this?

SPEAKER_04 13:52

Um yeah, absolutely. You know, having read uh again, having read the book multiple times and then having seen the fan reactions and what people wrote and and having discussions with um, you know, it's it's a really it's really interesting that the book has been used as a way um in I don't know in healing in healing those that have been sex trafficked and in healing those that have had addictions and healing those that feel uh they're not, you know, their their self-esteem is low. So the book actually it's a it's this bizarrely, it's a novel, but it's this bizarrely applicable book that's used in groups for to help heal people. And so I was really, really compelled by that, thinking, wow, this is such a powerful piece of work. If if any of us in in all of our lives can can can leave a legacy like this, something this powerful, um, I have to treat this with the utmost respect, and which I did. And uh to answer your question, you know, as a filmmaker, you have to take what your vision is and and believe in it enough to know that you're presenting it in the in the way that you feel like anyone who read this book will understand that the reverence and the love uh that that they have for the book that the filmmaker had for the book as well. And I think that was the most important thing to come through. And and you know, I I I can tell you there is even when I was working on the screenplay with Francine, my wife would be like, Why is that scene not in the book? I wish that scene was in the screenplay. Why is it not in the book? You know, we had I'd explained to her all those different things, but yeah, we I definitely took that into account. Um and and and knowing that the source material was so strong and so powerful that you know it's one of those things where you kind of close your eyes and pray and just give it the reverence it needs to be and every decision and and everything you can do. And then it was really interesting to me because it's you know, I've done big action movies where I've had six, seven cameras, helicopters, and this was a single camera show, and we composed every single frame so carefully and meticulously um that it was just a different experience. And so I feel like we gave it, we gave it the love that the the people who read the book uh gave it as well when when they read it and after the you know, the when you close the book and realize how powerful it is, we gave it that same kind of love.

James Duke 16:02

So fans of the book like your wife and mine and others who have seen these moments over and over in their head can rest assured that they will they will uh those moments will be played out.

SPEAKER_04 16:13

Yeah, they they can. And and and again, you know, you don't I you know you go to the some we had a nice test screening in Dallas and in somewhere outside of Dallas in this beautiful suburb in this beautiful theater with 300 and something people, and every single person there who had read the book said the film exceeded their expectations. That's great. That was really that was a great book.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

It was very cool seeing it on that big screen with the audience. And I've always said, uh James, it's uh this is a movie made by fans of the book for fans of the book.

James Duke 16:44

That's great, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Um, and I I think uh I think DJ's calling is probably the highest calling. I've I've teased him a little bit, but uh it's kind of a love letter, uh love letter to his wife in a way. Sorry, DJ. I'm gonna make you blush a little bit. It's true.

James Duke 17:01

Um Simon, you you touched on this a little bit uh about the the the controversial nature of the the book and the story. So um for those who aren't aware, the book is uh an um kind of an allegorical take on the book of Hosea. And um but it's not set in present day, it's set um uh turn of century, turn of the century, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Yeah, set in the late late 1800s, mid to late 1800s.

James Duke 17:32

And and so um, but in Francine's novel, she doesn't hold back to the realness and the rawness of of the situation, the story that she's that she's telling. Um, which oftentimes, as you know, we can discuss here, oftentimes the what's often referred to as the Christian subculture or or whatever you want to call it, faith-based films, they don't always like to deal with those kind of subjects. And so um uh I wonder if you could touch on this a little bit, because obviously you've had a storied career as a film executive. You're now producing these fantastic films. Um your process and going, how do I I love this story, how do I tell it right? I wonder if you could kind of unpack that working with Cindy Bond on this. Um uh talk a little bit about that tightrope that you guys feel like you had to have to walk with this film.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Honestly, for me, this has been one of the challenges, one of the challenges and one of the appeals of this project, right? Is there there hasn't been there's no there's no comparative to to Redeeming Love in my mind. As I look back on all the movies I've worked on in my career, from the big blockbusters to the smaller indies, this is a movie that um it's just a sweeping, gorgeous love story, right? And the faith elements are there. We did not want to make it an overtly faith movie, but we're also not shying away from the faith that's in the movie. You know, you've got characters that behave a certain way because of what they believe, but at no point in time is the audience being preached to. It's a love story. And if you're if you're in the faith community, you'll understand the cues. You'll you'll see it and you know it. It's very, it's very clearly there. But if you're not in the faith community, it's just a very satisfying love story that will, you know, you'll you'll laugh, you'll cry, uh, you'll go on this journey with us. And at the end, you know, when the when the house lights come up, you know, life is good. Uh in a funny kind of way, all the controversy that's been around redeeming love is something that drew us in. And honestly, uh, not all kidding aside, I've I've said this to DJ so many times. If it wasn't for his creative vision and the way he articulated this journey we were going on, um it would have been a much tougher sell for us. Uh and there's a lot of crazy. Stories about how Antiba pictures became involved, came back into this again. Um, but it really hinged for us on DJ's creative vision. And it's funny, I mean, one of my first conversations with DJ on set was about the single camera. I don't know if you remember this, DJ. Uh and and we were seeing these beautiful shots being framed. Uh, it was just stunning. The imagery we were seeing right there, live in front of us, how meticulous he and uh Rohir Safra were about setting up every shot. Uh we we could we were seeing art being created in front of us, and and uh it was it was it was fantastic. It was a very meticulous process, and it was a commitment to make a beautiful movie. And it's not like I said, I I wouldn't describe this as a faith-based movie. This is a very broad, uh, broad appeal love story because I I think we have conceptions of faith-based movie, and it's much like defining someone as a Christian. It's a label that is not all inclusive, right? It it actually is a way more complex uh uh description than just uh it's this, right? And I think I think people will be blown away by the overwhelming quality, the strength of the performances of this movie. Uh and yeah, we are hoping we just blow away audiences' expectations. And uh, you know, it's a it's a character-driven, story-driven movie that is visually stunning.

James Duke 21:28

I love that. Uh, you know, I think that what you're what you're touching on, Simon, is something that is incredibly important for our audience to grasp, which is how to be a person of faith that tells stories that aren't necessarily um stories of faith, but they're but you as a person of faith are telling these stories. And so they're infused with who you are, they're infused with your worldview, whether whether um you're trying to tell the story of of uh of something like this or or you know some action comedy or some buddy comedy or or whatever. And um for you, Simon, because you've you've you've you've worn many hats over the years, I'm curious now as you're um uh producing these kind of films, what do you look for when you are looking to tell a great story? Um when you're looking when you're looking to make a film, uh what kind of stories, what kind of of uh uh dare I use the term IP uh or screenplays, but like what kind of stories draw you um that resonate with you that you're looking for to create?

SPEAKER_02 22:49

I I'm looking for stuff that I think is fresh and unique. Um for for uh you know, for at least what in Tiba, the way my my company and Tiba Pictures and my partner Wayne Fitzjohn uh looks at things is we're looking for fresh and unique, we're looking for quality, and we want to make sure it's got to be commercial. We've got to know we've got an audience. Where is that audience? Is there, you know, certainly again, I've harped on this so much, but your creative elements, but you know, the vision, the vision that your director is trying to drive is that's something that you're really excited about, right? Because this is a this is a multi-year journey. It's a labor of love in so many ways. Um, and you have to buy into that right off the bat, otherwise you don't want to go on that journey. Um, that's why I can't say it enough is the the underlying content is powerful, uh, and we had the right creative team in place that I believed could bring this, could execute it properly, right? The the budget, etc. And I couldn't agree with you more, by the way. Every movie to me, and I my 30-year career in this with studios and so on, every movie is a faith-based movie. Somehow or other, you're absolutely right, right? So it's like this is a label that's that actually is is meaningless because it it every creative I've ever come across, somehow or other their personal views are infused in those characters or in the things that occur, right? I mean, I can see how DJ thinks about the world when I look at his whole filmography um and everything that he's worked on. And uh so I agree with you on that. And it's like I encourage people to actually drop the change the nomenclature a little bit where it's you know, let's just accept that every every movie is pretty much a faith-based movie because those values are there.

James Duke 24:35

It's a it's a marketing term, right? Like it's like a it's like a bunch of marketing people said we got to figure out a way to sell. And it's like I maybe the story I want to tell fits in that, but but probably not, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Yeah, I I think you've got to look at what you want your finished product to be, right? And in in the in the traditional faky faith space, now I'm using it as well, right? Uh, there's a lot of filmmakers that want to make two hours that want to make two-hour sermons, and that's what they're called to do to create. And God bless them, that that's a totally viable business model and a totally viable marketplace. Um, you know, and then others like us, we tend to be on the other end as we're looking to make broad commercial appeal uh content because I do feel like that's that's how you have an impact. It's like that that's where we're gonna have an impact, right? And it's not to say that the if that there's not any disrespect for the the other movies where there it is a two-hour sermon where you are being preached at, because you know, one of my favorite uh uh filmmakers always says, you know, I want to make movies that make Christians better Christians. And he and I are very good friends, and I love that. But that's his passion. Ours is to really go to the broad broad appeal commercial. That's been my whole background is those broad commercial movies, and that's really where I'm comfortable. And as I say, it's like uh uh just the challenges in something like Redeeming Love was something original and fresh. And our screening in Dallas, uh, the consensus from the audience, uh 300 people, was the comments in the first few minutes when the house lights came up is they just don't make movies like this anymore. There, there we haven't seen anything like this in theaters for years. And it's like I really feel like DJ has uh has has really thread the needle, and where it's like you've created something that's very contemporary, although it's set in the late 1800s, it's very contemporary and fresh, and there's a very strong message in there of of hope and of overcoming. And those those messages are universal.

James Duke 26:42

Yep. You uh DJ, you I love what you said. Thank you, Simon, for that. Um DJ, in the end, it's just got to be good, right? Like, like we're trying to make we're trying to make really good films that um the majority that that are gonna connect to the majority of people, mainstream audience. So to me, the the question is not whether or not it's it it portrays faith well. The question is is it good? Like if you're making a role, a rope a romance, is it romantic? Like, isn't that kind of a little bit where you're yeah, that's uh that's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:21

I mean, I think that's a great, you know, that's obvious an obvious uh in an astute uh analogy. It's just basically, you know, you I always find that no matter what I'm doing, it's usually the lead character or a character that speaks to me. And and whether, you know, I I try to see, you know, I try to see Christ in everyone and every one that I meet and everything that I see, and even films, or certain films, but you know, I always think that that that faith-based market, I understand the necessity and the beauty, and knowing that you can go see a film that you know is going to preach to you and and and inspire you. I think that's great. But I think what's happened over the time is that that label has become sort of for for other for films like, and I'm not even saying for redeeming love, but there's a faith-based element in this movie for sure, but it's not what makes you enjoy. There's there's a boy who sees a girl who falls in love with her. She's incredibly damaged and has been out in the desert and is lost and has no idea what she's doing, and barely has any hope until she meets him. And then the most important element of it is he basically allows her to decide what she needs to do. He wants to guide her and help and be there, but it's really her decision. And and I always say, people always say to me, 'Oh, well, what's your favorite faith-based movie that you've ever seen?' And I'll say, 'Field of dreams.' And they'll look at me and go, like, that's not a faith-based movie. And I go, watch it again, watch it again, right? A man hears a voice, right? He gacks on a lead, he acts on his faith of what he hears about this voice and he does something credible. And what happens is that metaphor for baseball is all we're trying to do is get home, right? We're all just trying to start at home place and get home. And so to me, that was an incredibly, incredibly strong Christian movie, though no, no one in the mainstream might think that. So I think for your audience and for the writers and the directors, is like, how do we, it's not tricking people, but how do we infuse our message into films that are not going to be labeled in a certain way? But the down, the the the troubling element for me is like if you're just a little bit okay. So Redeeming Love is a beautiful movie. It's about a young woman who is in prostitution. And so when she makes love for the very first time with her husband, it's a very beautiful, beautiful scene. Some may say, Well, why is that scene in the movie? Why do we have to promote? But because you were saying this is such a strong character moment for this. She's never felt love before, right? And so it's such a to me, it's the biggest moment in the movie. And so you have to understand that there might be certain audience people, oh, but but it's it's so essential and done so well and tastefully. We're a PG 13 movie that yeah, I think it's our responsibility as filmmakers is to infuse our our ourselves and our message and our Lord into these movies without it necessarily being labeled as of a certain movie. And then and then unfortunately, because of budgetary reasons or whatever, the quality of some of the what I'll call faith-based movies, the quality of the filmmaking isn't cinematic, right? It's not cinematic, right?

James Duke 30:26

Falls falls falls woefully short of what those of us who would who actually just want to go see a movie. Right, right. I'm I'm I'm always leery. And look, I have friends in this space, people who I love and adore, but I'm always a little bit leery about trying to sell a film based on loading up all the kids at the youth group in a van to take them down. Like I'm like, you know, there's something about I was talking to Andrew Irwin uh at one of my previous podcasts, and he was talking about um FOMO, you know, like fear of missing out. Like that's that's what we want. We we want people who uh who maybe aren't inclined to see our films to hear about someone talking about them and like, did you see that great film? Right. And then they say themselves, man, I want to go check it. I want to go check that film out. And they they are encountering maybe, maybe perhaps a different worldview um than that they have, but they're also encountering it in the context of a of a really good film, you know, a a good story well told is the kind of the phrase that we use at at Act One a lot. Um when so let's let's talk a little bit about the making of this film. So obviously, when you're making a um a romance, a period romance, um uh this is something that you had to think a lot about when it comes to casting. I'm sure that the idea of who are the who are who are my two leads, who who's the audience gonna fall in love with and believe that they're falling in love with each other. Can you talk a little bit about your casting process with this film?

SPEAKER_04 32:08

Uh yeah, sure. Um, it was uh it was uh a really uh uh eye-opening process. I had decided and convinced uh Simon and Cindy that that Angel Sarah should be completely an unknown girl, a girl that no one's ever seen before, never saw in a movie, never really understood, so that we can start with a blank slate and you don't have any baggage, there's nothing. You just meet this little girl and you've meet her from the beginning. So we kind of did a search and whew, read hundreds and hundreds of young girls. And then Abigail came in later, late in the process, Abigail Cowan, and she uh a friend of mine had mentioned meet her to me uh uh about a month before I met her. Said this girl's fantastic, you gotta see her. And she came in and she just it was like when I read Shia LaBeouf in in Disturbia. When he came in, I knew after the first scene, like I got him. I got this is so the guy, this is him. And and the same thing happened with Abigail. I knew that that she was gonna be Angel, she was gonna be Sarah. Um, and then that was uh that was great. And then building Tom Lewis off of her, it was really difficult because in the book, um, Michael is this perfect physical specimen and very, very perfect and unflawed, and like so everything about him, it was really difficult. So, what I wanted to do like Simon, so like Simon, just like Simon, you're not looking at Simon, but yeah, uh and so what I wanted to do was get make Michael a little bit younger, make him a contemporary of Angel, and so that our romance would have a little bit more of that first love feel, like falling in love for the first time and and all that. So uh Tom Lewis, I read him in London very, very late in the process. I was so enamored by his eyes, and um, he was just incredibly captivating. And so I felt really compelled that they would be good together. And so when we read Abigail and Tom together, it worked out. And so basically, we have two leads in their very first movie in lead roles that have never been in that they've never been in films before, basically.

James Duke 34:13

And and and Simon, when he says to you, you know, uh this this property, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bank it on two kind of quote unquote unknowns. Is that when you went into your prayer closet and began to pray? Or is it no?

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Actually, that is a funny thing. You talk about our approach to filmmaking, as we do tend to uh approach filmmaking and and our producing and financing by turning traditional models on their head. So, yes, was I nervous? I mean, I remember the the auditions on Michael and uh the conversations that happened afterwards. And with Francine, with Francine and DJ, they had a very clear idea of what they wanted. And we we we did talk to many, we went through a lot of the traditional names that you would think of, and you know, we we're going uh really amazing looking, well built, all that kind of stuff. But you know, Francine and DJ go, but would you believe that someone like that would would wait for the perfect girl? Would some would they would they be innocent enough and pure enough? Because sometimes you can be almost too handsome, too good looking, too sort of studly, uh and uh and you know, we're looking for that perfect guy who would have that innocence and have that freshness um and have that purity, if you will. Um where where the audience has to believe that this is a guy who's going to let her figure stuff out for herself and just just love her. And that was the challenge. And honestly, those are some of the most interesting casting discussions I've ever had. And when DJ found Michael, we were like, uh, when Tom Lewis has Michael, we were like, yeah, uh, we see it. Uh and he's classically trained, he's a very well-trained young actor. It's not like he's you know, we we found him in a mall somewhere. Um and and we we bought into that completely. And Tom Tom was a pleasure to work with. And I do think again, under DJ's direction, uh our entire cast were so generous with each other going through these hugely emotional scenes. Um, and and the range in this movie is so so extensive, and just seeing how they each upped each other's games in a scene, and you know, it was it was it was it was amazing. So, yeah, I would say the casting on this, like we we were getting I was in my prayer closet every day, they called it video village um on S. And when you're seeing these images being captured and coming in, and I could see DJ, like we'd we'd be talking and going, It's like, oh, it's like we should try this, try that. Now there's no audio, right? So DJ would then go, okay, let's take it again. And we could hear his audio most of the time. And he's going, How about you try this, try that? And we're like, Okay, we're in good hands, we're good. It's like this is great.

James Duke 37:09

DJ, uh tell us a little bit about your process with actors. Do you do a lot of well, like for instance? Well, actually, let's go back to that that casting. You did you so you did chemistry reads and like how many of those did you do, or did you did you put them in a room and it was just firecracker right away? Or what was that like? And then and then the other thing is um then like rehearsals. Do you do you rehearse a lot? Do you what's your process of uh of working with the actors even on set after you cast?

SPEAKER_04 37:40

Uh well, first, first, first is yeah, we did we did chemistry readings. We did a few chemistry readings with some of the people here in Los Angeles that we thought might be potentials, and we read them with Abigail. Um and so we did probably four or five of those, and then we did one with Tom, uh, which stood out above all the rest, which was, you know, which was what I suspected, and it and it happened. So that that was great. So we did do those, and those are those are tough because uh, but they're also as a from a filmmaking point, they're educational because each actor brings something a little bit different and a little different interpretation, and then trying to kind of craft that into what you think it needs to be and how that works. So it's almost like being in director rehearsal as well, right? So you can try to shape and can and shape a scene a certain way or get an actor to do something uh away and see how that plays. So that was very good because it's educational. It's like being in the gym working out in your movie. Um, and then basically what I do, I love the rehearsal process not from a his uh and not that Hitchcock rehearsed, but not from uh a shot by shot, here's how I'm gonna shoot the movie. To me, that's the incredible bonding process where we get to trust each other, we get to talk about each other, we get to read a scene and not so much about how it's performed, but if there's a question, and it's almost like stage of play rehearsal for me, where we get to bond, we we learn a certain trust. And oh, yeah, we were realizing this scene has the same beat as that scene, and so is there a certain way. And I'm always trying to let the actor guide with questions that I can answer simply. I think early in my career, you can sort of get over analytical uh in in in with your cast and actors and start speaking, and then they look at you with these glazed eyes like, so you want me to be angry, right? Is that what you're saying? Uh right. And you go, Oh, yes, I want you to be angry. Sorry. Was that did that just take me 45 minutes to tell you why I want you to be angry? Um, and so every actor I've learned is different. And I've been blessed to work with a lot of a lot of award-winning actors from Pacino to McConaughey to Angelina Jolie. So, and to see how everyone works, everyone's different. Like Matthew McConaughey would just say, Boss, give me a verb. What do you want? I want you to just I want you to destroy him. I want you to destroy him, right? I want you to charm him. Like Matthew just loves acting verbs, right? He just wants verbs, and everyone's process is different. So, again, to go back, my rehearsal process is really more about bonding and trusting and understanding each other. So that when we get into these intimate moments on set, we've we've had some intimate moments together and we're we're a team. I want the actors to know that I have their back. And if we can build the foundation in the rehearsal period, then we're able to explore and expand what we can do when we're actually shooting it.

James Duke 40:17

Oh, talking to young, like aspiring directors, um what is it like to build a relationship with your actors? Um, do you want and and maybe it's maybe it's different every time, and that's okay if that's your answer. But yeah, um, do you do there does there need to be, do you have to be buddy, but do you have to be best friends with all of your leads? Do you like to have some sort of um some sort of distance, a professional distance? Like what um what is how do you relate to your actors and your projects?

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Well, it's I think you have to go on a project by project, cast by cast basis because there's a lot of times, particularly like even in a redeeming love situation, where I provided tons of research, like Abigail. Here's two girls that have been sex trafficked. One's in Arizona, one's here. Here's her phone number. I can let you know you're gonna call. Here's some articles I read on this, and and so and so you can see how engaged the actor or actress gets and how involved they want to be. And then you can see, okay, great. Some are like, Great, I got this. I'm taking care of it. Thank you for the information. I'm gonna prepare myself and do this thing. So every actor has a different way that they build their character. Um, when you I always like to say that like number one on the call sheet and the director are a team, like no matter how they work, or like, you know, when I'm doing Vin Diesel Triple X, Vin and I are partners, basically, right? Because it's sort of his vision, too, and my vision of what I want to make the movie. So, yeah, we're gonna hang out together, we're gonna do this, we're gonna cast together, we're gonna do all that. And then there's other times where, you know, Al Pacino and I, we had great relationships. We did our rehearsals, we did our things, but it's not like Al is gonna hang out with you after and and have a you know, have a glass of, you know, he's uh he's clean, but you know, and have a have a glass of juice. So every every relationship has to be different. I think being a father of five children and and understanding that and and watching, and you have to observe each actor's process and where they need you and where they don't need you. And there's you know, there's the there's a great story um I love to tell, and it's not on my set, but um my script supervisor was the script supervisor on Lincoln with Spielberg, and it was the first time he worked with Daniel Day-Lewis, and it's day one, scene one, six-page, you know, Daniel Day Lewis scene with Spielberg moving the camera with Yannis Kaminsky. One, and literally they did one take, and Spielberg looked to the script supervisor and says, like, I have nothing to say. Like, I think we're I we got it. Like, I have nothing to say. I have nothing, there's nothing I can say. And I think as a director, there's certain times you have to understand there's nothing you can say. Sometimes the actor just nails it. And then the most difficult, and sorry, this is a long-winded answer. The most difficult part of it is when as a filmmaker, you have a certain vision, and the actor is or actress is just not giving you right what you need. And so that's when you have to try to understand. And and the biggest mistake I made, and I I will share this with young filmmakers, I made it twice, so it's on me, is in one rehearsed a very, very emotional scene and in rehearsal, and both times it happened to be actresses. They were so amazing in the rehearsal that I had the crew was weeping in the rehearsal. And it happened twice. And when we shot the scene, we never even got close to being back there. You know, and so I've learned, like, okay, well, but stop, stop. I'll stop a rehearsal when I see that it's getting too deep, right? Okay, great. So we know you're gonna stand over there and stop. So you have to be careful because you love what you're doing so much, but you also have to mind the store. You have to be able to mine the store.

James Duke 43:43

Yeah, not everybody's merrile, they can't just turn off the exact work overnight, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:50

To to that question, James, it was fascinating watching just on Redeeming Love. Um, DJ witnessing you honestly work with Livy, a child. Uh Livby Birch plays Young Young Sarah, uh, and then and then watching him interact with Eric Dane as they try and bring Duke uh to life. And Duke was a pretty hard role to cast because it's a pretty he's a pretty nasty character. He is the devil. And you've got to find someone who can play that Duke role and wants to play that Duke role because he's he's not a good guy. Uh he's sort of a pedophile sex trafficker, gentleman character, but he's he's evil to the core. Uh, and watching them go through their play about how to bring Duke to life versus how he dealt with Livy versus how he was dealing with uh with Abigail on set, you know, watching DJ shift that way. It's like what he's talking about, he is truly adaptive to the actor and to the scene. I don't know, DJ, you can expound on that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 44:55

Yeah, no, that I think, yeah, that that comes with experience. I think that comes with experience. But you know, there's times and I think particularly in speaking with Duke, it was really important for us to understand that the the the devil presents himself in the most attractive and manipulative and interesting way, that it's not, you know, this mustache twirling evil person that he's coming from a place of where he can charm you, where he can convince you, where he can control you, but it's all all done in in that way. And Eric was really brilliant in in how to how to bring how to bring Duke to life and make him real. Um, yes, you're not you're not supposed to like him, or you're are you are you going to like him, but you can understand how he has the power over Angel that he does.

James Duke 45:41

Uh, I've often heard that um the director is the you know the BS detector on set. They're watching, they're in video village, and you know, you're watching that performance, and they're just you know, is it is it coming across as real, authentic, or is it just you know, BS? And you talked about, you know, sometimes the challenge is getting on the same page with your actors. I I remember, I think it was I can't remember if it was Matt Damon who told the story or if it was Coppola, but um, I think it was Damon who told the story of he there was a scene when they were shooting Rainmaker uh with co when he was shooting Rainmaker with Coppola. And I I think he just wasn't getting it. Like there was something like he just wasn't getting it. And they had done like multiple takes. And um, and Coppola uh just called for um just called for everyone to take a break and to walk away. And he looked at Matt and he could tell Matt was struggling um and was frustrated with himself and was kind of all in his head. And and Coppola just kind of looked at him. You know, this was a younger Matt Damon. He said, Hey, come walk with me. And they walked outside the set and they sat down on some on some steps. And I think Coppola offered him a cigar. I'm sure, and a glass of wine too. Yeah, and a glass of wine, yeah. His label. And um and and he said that they just talked, they didn't talk about the scene, they didn't talk about anything that had to do with the film whatsoever, their care, his character, nothing. They just talked as like two men, like you know, did you see the game last night, or you know, whatever. And they just kind of talked and they talked for about 10 or 15 minutes, and then he said Coppola just looked at him, and and he had by the time he had finished his cigar or something, he looked at him and he went, All right, let's go back and shoot this. And Matt Damon talks about how he walked back in, just completely uh able to to dial dial it in because he was able to finally kind of get out of his head. And Coppola wasn't, you know, he wasn't directing him, he was just treating him like a but but clearly this was one of those things that Coppola would use, right? Right. And so for you as a director, when you're seeing that an actor is struggling and having a hard time, um, what are some things that maybe you have found that has worked over the years to um really kind of help bring out the kind of the the performances that that you're looking for?

SPEAKER_04 48:06

Well, I think that that's a uh Coppola's uh Coppola's idea is is one that I think we take. Lots of times I'll just take the actor over and you can see whether he or she is really struggling and just kind of sit down and talk to him a little bit and just basically kind of remind me because I I that tends to happen when, and this has happened to me a few times, where someone has labeled this the most important scene in the movie for them, and like this is why I did the movie because this was the scene, right? And this was the scene, and um, I'll go back to one of my earlier set visits when I was like, I just had made my no, I hadn't made my first movie, I can't remember. And um, this is a trick I learned, and and I'll I'll get to why where I'm going with this is so I had read a script from a dear friend of mine, um, named Frank Derabont. He sent me The Green Mile, which was his follow-up to the Shaw Shank Redemption. And so I'm sitting in bed in Woodland Hills with my wife, and I'm reading the script, and tears just start pouring out of my eyes, like literally pouring out of my eyes. And it was when Coffee basically tells uh Tom Hanks' character, No, you can it's okay if I die, and this is why, because the world has become this, and I can't you know, and I just was bawling, and I kept saying, Wow, this scene, I got this is like this. And so I asked Frank, can I be on the set when you shoot this scene? And so I go on the set and it's Michael Clark Duncan, and he was a new actor, and you know, and and um I'm sitting there and I'm watching, and I kid you not, Tom Hanks' off-camera performance was so brilliant, a hundred times better than what he was doing on camera, because Tom Hanks also understood that this was the most important scene in the movie, and that Michael had to get there in a certain way. And I watched Tom working almost as a director to help Michael get there. And so, what my what I'm getting at is I've learned lots of times is if you have a good cast, change having the other actor change the rhythm or change something that they're doing, or being less angry, or while you're off camera, can you just be a little bit more um compassionate towards what he's saying? Even though that's not what your character is, it's gonna help this. And so I also learned that you can use your other cast members to help ease and and change that character. But what happens is you, I think Copel is and I would recommend that too. If someone's so in their head and they just can't get it, it doesn't mean like on take 45, they're gonna get it. Like I I don't I claim I I don't quite understand, I do with kids, but the Fincher, um, the Fincher way of 98 takes or or you know, you have do it again, do it again. Well, Kubrick again to strip all the acting out. I've never been able to get that high in takes to see that actually happen. Those guys are brilliant, they're amazing filmmakers, but I've never been afforded the luxury to get to take 67 or 60.

James Duke 50:51

Someone told me I'm going into my prayer room now. Especially if you're shooting film. Uh the the um yeah, someone told me that uh or I read this somewhere that Nicholson, like Nicholson would request uh like more and more takes. Like it was very common for him, he wanted 40 or 50 takes. And I was like, I never knew that I never knew actors would want that many. I understood why some directors, but yeah, that just seems like you're just at the once you get past, oh, I don't know, say 10, you know, you're just you just it's pretty much all gonna be the same, right?

SPEAKER_04 51:24

Yeah, yeah. Because you don't, you know, uh, does uh I'm trying to think like have I have have I organically been surprised after take 12 or take 13? A few times, maybe, you know what I mean? A few times maybe, but it's just one of those things. So but yeah, so my answer would be like to definitely give the actor a break and and take the pressure off he or she and also see if you can adjust your off-camera actors to help achieve what they need to achieve and and and and ease that in. Because if sometimes if you have this preconceived notion of a scene, which is not always the best way to do it, is that the other actor's performance can throw you off because you're not ready for that, whether they're being that aggressive or they're being that complacent or they're not reacting to your anger the way that you think that they're going to react to your anger because they're they're in their character and their character is like, hey, and so you you don't understand. And I've had I've had actors sometimes wrongly so ask me to make this other actor perform a certain way so that they would it would help serve them better. And you have to say, like, you have to make sure I always tell every actor, we're all very giving, but you have to be a selfish character. Once you make your character decision, it's vital that you remain true to what that decision is and what your character wants out of the scene. However, he or she's gonna get it, you know what you want, and that's why you're here, and that's what this scene is about. So if another actor is trying to manipulate you out, and that didn't happen, none of this happened on Redeeming Love. If another actor is trying to manipulate out you out of your decision and change your character, you have to be strong. You can't let that happen.

James Duke 52:53

Let's talk a little bit about uh the dynamic between the relationship between the producer and the director, if we can. Um and I and let I actually want to maybe start here just um based on our previous what we were just talking about. When when you look at so DJ, you've obviously you've done the big budget blockbusters, and this is uh a smaller film on a smaller scale, um uh in comparison to maybe some of those other ones you've done. Um when you're looking at pages and you're going, I want to shoot, let's say it's a heavy dialogue scene. Um how do you determine how many days you want to shoot those pages versus you kind of going to your producers, uh like Simon, and then negotiating how many days do I get to shoot this movie, how many days do I get to shoot this scene? And Simon, you know, the your your from your perspective, um, how do you do your best to accommodate your director's wishes, but at the same time realizing, look, we can't shoot for 80 days, like we only have so many days budgeted to shoot. I'm just curious the relationship, the dynamic of how you guys go about you as the director looking at some of these maybe more intense scenes you want to spend more time on versus trying to accommodate uh maybe a smaller, uh smaller scale budget.

SPEAKER_04 54:14

Yeah, well, you you basically for me, I I get it. I I obviously you have the screenplay, you look at it, you see how it's broken down, you look at some of the scheduling, and you understand like, wow, this is I I also like to know, particularly up front, is where we are financially, just so that my you know, my expectations are like, okay, I'm not gonna get 55 days to shoot this movie. For this is an example where I had 30 days, right? And um, um, and so that's what we could do, and how to that's how we can make it work. So I like to make it fit into the box and then understand it, and then look within those 30 days and say, This is a heavily, heavily emotional day. This is a heavily emotional day. Now, fortunately, in this schedule, which was grueling, this was I don't think I've ever worked so hard in my life, just because I can't remember exactly, but there are over 270 scenes or something crazy like that in this movie. I can't so I mean, do you remember? I don't remember 270 or something, so it's so many scenes.

SPEAKER_02 55:13

Yeah. Well, yeah, DJ probably had a little bit of whiplash on this one because the story of how this movie was actually made is is pretty interesting. Is Cindy Bond was the early champion of it, and she got Pureflex on board, which it was just pretty brave of them to do it because of the controversial content. It was kind of outside of their brand. And then we came on, and there were some other producers that kind of came in and went out, kind of thing. It's just like it just there was a lot of stuff that happened behind the scenes that was going on in terms of how the picture was financed, etc. That's a whole nother podcast by itself. Um, but coming on board, uh seeing the schedule, see the way things were broken out. Um, yeah, our communication with DJ is honestly we we added days. We we we found our rhythm probably uh you know fairly quickly, I think. Uh we had a lot of you know, week one is always challenging because you don't know where your problems are until week one. Uh you try and anticipate as best you can, and we were definitely fixing problems. But uh in terms of the scheduling and the days, we we altered the schedule quite a few times due to weather and things like that. Uh, but also there were some scenes that DJ wanted to spend more time on, and we adjusted the shooting schedule as we were going. I don't know, DJ, you can talk more about that. But you know, once we got into it, yeah, honestly, for me, I was looking at our schedule, we were making our days, we were covering what we needed to. And what was interesting though was the single camera that DJ DJ mentioned because the meticulous, the just the planning that goes into that, where you you you've got your your your different all these scenes, and then you're you're you've got setups where you're shooting it from different angles, you know, you you're shooting it all multiple times, right? And DJ was so meticulous about that. And uh honestly, like we knew we were making our days, we were going long, we would have conversations about overtime, we would have conversations about uh shifting days and adding days and so on. And that I thought they were pretty organic, DJ.

SPEAKER_04 57:18

Uh yeah, they did, yeah. I think so. I I I think it was you know, you I had a great support from the producers because I had uh told Cindy early and then Simon came aboard. I just said, look, this is I'm not gonna be like, I'm just gonna be so in the zone because in order for me to make these days, and we did six day weeks as well. Um, and what I need to get from Abigail, like I'm just gonna be in there working, like from the day we from the moment we say action to the moment we rap. Like, I'm I'm not gonna be able to be hanging out and like you know, there's certain movies triple X. Great, we're gonna set this up, it's gonna take seven hours. Great, let's go sit down and have a cigar and talk. No, we didn't have any of that. It was just non-stop. And Abigail physically and emotionally was so spent, and that's exactly what her character needed to be. So the schedule was actually to our advantage. Like, there was, you know, she was bruised, she was beaten, she was exhausted, she was dehydrated, she was trying everything like to be as best she could, but it worked out so beautifully because it was an intense schedule. I mean, if this was a studio film, and I think when you see it, I'm one of the things I'm most proud of is like the filmmakers, friends of mine who've seen the movie, it looks like a 50, 60 million dollar movie. I'm not, I kid you not. It looks like you people are like, How did you do this? And well, part of how we did it was South Africa. We literally built our town. We built an amazing town. I looked around in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and looked in uh up in uh Canada and all these western towns were these movie perfect, straight western towns with perfect corners and perfect streets. And when we started to research the um Sierra Nevadas and those gold rush towns in the 1850s, those towns went up so fast, they were on hills, the roads weren't even. And so we literally built this town. It was the most beautiful town um in South Africa. We couldn't afford it to do it, it's do what we did that that's in the States, and it is it's a fantastic town. It was probably the most cinematic town, you know, that I've seen. And you know, I don't know if it's still there or not, Simon. You might know better than I, but it was uh still there. It's still there. Yeah, it was yep, it was great. And so that was a real luxury to have that and stuff. But going back to the schedule, there were the producers were great. We worked really well together. We'd have to, you know, make a role and say, look, we didn't get this today because the sun went down. So how do we how do we come back and get to these things? And so it was a real good collaborative effort. I've had I've had some of the opposite uh relationships, and it's not with everybody, but there's always someone in there who thinks they know better than than the filmmaker. And it's usually not your mom, it's usually someone with a production manager title or something like that.

James Duke 59:47

You said you did six uh six day weeks. How many days did you end up shooting, Simon?

SPEAKER_02 59:52

We we ended up at about 36 or 37, if I recall correctly. And bear in mind we've got the normal pressures. Of uh of shooting these intense, intense days, long days, uh, as DJ mentioned. And you know, we've also got a worldwide pandemic closing in on us, and we're watching news reports and stuff, and we're down in the bottom of the world pretty much, uh looking at it, uh, you know, and trying to adjust our schedule and just just going, let's let's go. So we had kind of we had some extraordinary pressure on us, I would say, um, through through all of that. But honestly, what DJ was talking about, I mean, people would come to come to us on set and go, it's like, DJ's demanding this, DJ's demanding that. And I'm like, and you know, we'd have we'd have those discussions. Our job was to shield DJ from all of that. That was what I understood from day one on the set was our job was to protect DJ in his creative bubble, uh, as it were. DJ probably didn't feel that way to you, but it's like we were basically saying, no, you don't take this to him. It's like we're making our days, you give him what he wants. And by the way, what we're getting is stunning. When he talks about the fact that this looks like it's a$60 million budget, you will see it in every single frame. And we were seeing it real time in front of us. And and I do think it's it's it's it's a producer's job is to protect their director um and get out of the way. I mean, honestly, because most of what DJ was doing, our job was to get out of the way and give them everything he needed.

James Duke 1:01:20

That's I love hearing that. When you guys are uh so you shot in South Africa, and uh Simon, is there a is there a really strong crew base to pull from there? Did you bring people from the US? Um, talk a little bit about setting uh the decision-making process that went into shooting in South Africa.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

Boy, um that's uh that's a great question. I just want to I'll I'll preface it a little bit with uh what an Antiba Pictures is actually based in South Africa and here. It's ironic that I'm a South African immigrant in the US and now uh working. It's important for us to actually kind of support the South African film industry. So we have a passion for that. But also my passion for it kind of came from my studio experience, frankly, where it's like I realize that if we go down to South Africa, we get great crew, we're getting great talent, and yeah, travel becomes a little bit more expensive uh for your cast and your your imports, if you will. So, you know, we we we tried to find the best people we could around the world and we bring them down there. Um, and it's just it's a great, it's a great place to shoot uh because the environments are so organic and natural, and the availability of English-speaking crews is stunning. And and really Antiba Pictures is is committed to building out that infrastructure. So it it's kind of uh it's a it's a triple payoff, if you will. Um, and uh and and we are we are deeply committed to to that industry. And I also think on a macro level, we think the continent of Africa has a lot of great stories and a lot to offer the global film community. And our long-term vision is to continue to showcase that, and it's going to be sort of one movie at a time.

James Duke 1:03:06

That's great. But the the irony is not lost that you're a South African immigrant to the US going back to South Africa to make your movies. That's great. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

Well, it is. When I was at 20th Century Fox, um, we did try and push production, uh a few productions down there, especially if they were sort of riskier and we knew we needed to make it on a budget. Uh, you know, there there were a lot of uh projects that we'd push down there, and there's so much production happening down there right now with Amazon, Netflix, and the studios. I mean, there's sort of sequences from many of the Disney movies are being shot down there as well.

James Duke 1:03:42

So and are you in are you in Cape Town or are you in Joburg? Where are you guys?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

Our our office is based in Johannesburg. Uh so far, most of the production we've done has been in Cape Town, but we have looked at uh, you know, we we we'll work all around the country. We're you know we we did a movie that was shot almost entirely in Johannesburg that was on Netflix, um, called I Am All Girls, that uh ironically dealt with uh trafficking as well. It was a lot harder of a movie though than uh Redeeming Love.

James Duke 1:04:13

Yeah. I uh uh South Africa is one of the few countries I've actually been to. So I know a little and I have some friends in in South Africa, so that's why I was asking. You'll get a kick out of this. I went to a Spring Box All-Black game and experienced that firsthand. Um that this was you know, this was 15 years ago, but it was that was one of the most intense. That was one of the most intense, that was one of the most intense sporting events I've ever been to in my life was the Spring Box All Black uh rugby game. That was intense.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:49

It's one of the greatest sporting rivalries, frankly. Every game is intense. Um but no, it I I would say being being in South Africa, uh honestly getting the the locations that DJ and the team and the the uh scouting team had put together for us were just stunning. I mean, we're literally working in paradise in so many ways. Um, you have these long, grueling days, but like you sort of look around you, and it's just you're in this stunning, stunning uh uh just environment. It's it was fantastic. We shot on some of the larger wine farms in South Africa, which which was great, where we built the farm and things like that.

James Duke 1:05:33

Uh um so DJ, I I know a lot of actors talk about they really find the character when they put that costume on. You know, they talk about like if when they put the costume on, that's when they really begin to find their their their um their character. For you, I mean, you've shot all different kinds of films, but shooting a period piece where you're building, they're building a town for you, and there's gotta be something a little bit extra magical about being on a period set, no?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:05

Yeah, no, that was my first period film too, believe it or not. Everything I've done, I've done a couple of scenes like old western scenes and jokes in some of the TV shows that I started out in. But no, this was the first period film, and it was interesting because there's so many um meticulous and and and um uh decisions that have to be made. And and it was like also, you know, you have to remember there's no airplanes, there's no electronic sounds, there's none of that stuff. So we put ourselves kind of in the middle of nowhere on purpose, which was a little difficult to get to some of our sets, but it actually made us feel like when we were in this little canyon, we're in this town of paradise, it felt like we were there, and um, yeah, so it is magical. And there was um one day where we had our most extras, and the street of paradise is was was full. And we did our our introduction shot of meeting Angel up in the brothel, and uh we kind of wet down the streets, and we had the I will say that the I like to call them background performers instead of extras. People like to call them extras. I don't know why, I just like to give them the respect of calling them background performers. And the background performers in South Africa, the faces I got to choose from and and the enthusiasm that they brought. And there was really probably it was one of the most magical days. We had this um technocrane kind of going through this crowd and pulling up through a window, and it's one of those old-fashioned tricks where the the window, the set closes and the window closes and the camera comes through. So it was really one of those magical cinematic moments. But seeing that and the period garb and seeing the town and showing that all off. There was times we go, like, yeah, this is why I do what I I'm glad I do what I do. It's beautiful.

James Duke 1:07:37

And and for you too, like you've made a lot of films that are uh not, you know, I'll just they're not like this film, right? Like you, you, you are you are like the film. I I love some of your like I'm a big thriller guy. So when I saw that you were directing this film, I got really excited because I'm like, oh, I love Eagle, I love all those movies. Um uh, you know, you're you've done a lot of action. You're you've done a lot of action films, a lot of thrillers. Um was um was there something about this? Uh I mean, aside obviously some of the kind of the things you talked about previously with your wife reading the book and things like that. But um, as a director, did you want to challenge yourself on some maybe some things a little differently? Did you want to push yourself? Um, you know, like I'm gonna how do I direct this thing without without a technocrane? You know, some of that yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:30

And again, but that was believe me, that technocrane was a luxury that day. And it was probably my only look mom I'm directing shot in the whole movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:36

It's it's still one of my favorite shots of the movie because our many guys.

James Duke 1:08:40

So it was worth it. It was worth it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:43

There's always got to be one look mom I'm directing shot, right? Um, but no, I think the challenge for me was to really as as you get as you get older and you progress and you start to think about what you've done and what you're doing and what you want to say, and given the opportunity to work on something that you know the book had such a such a far reach and affected so many lives and helped so many women, young women, overcome really horrible circumstances that they battle every day. That I felt I fell so in love with Angel as a character because of how flawed she was. And I loved all her cracks and I loved how her life was just, it just seemed like there was no hope. But in these cracks, like I just kept saying the light is going to shine through these cracks and she's gonna get out of this. Obviously, Michael Josea helps her, but it's really her understanding her beauty and self-worth. And and to me, this whole movie was always about, and I I, you know, I I always try to thematically just kind of tie it in. And it was just about like this is a love. If you really love somebody, you don't judge them, you don't change them, and you don't you don't ever force them to do anything, but you just show them how how special or how they special they are in God's eyes, and how everyone is special in God's eyes. And and to me, that was sort of something I just grabbed onto. And and yeah, I also think like I did a little movie, the million-dollar movie called Standing Up, which is about bullying, because I dealt with bullying a little bit when I was uh growing up, and I just had such a great time on that. We shot that movie in like 18 days, and I operated the camera and we shot it on film. It was I had such a great experience that I wanted to see if I can get back to the purity and and redeeming love kind of gave me the best the best of both worlds, where I can cinematically create this beautiful, this beautiful place, and and that showed such promise. But then when you kind of look at what was happening in the gold mining towns and how it looked great until you got deeper down and dug underneath and got into the dirt, and then ultimately you bring Angel back up in the light when she gets out to Michael's farm. I just felt like it was going to challenge me as a filmmaker because it was a much more mature, a much more mature approach to character. Um, and that was just you know what I'm hoping to do for hopefully the rest of my career.

James Duke 1:11:01

That's great. I'm I'm really looking forward to seeing the film. Uh the the um uh for Simon, uh, can we nerd out just a little bit for my audience who are um are producers and aspiring producers and and studio executives? Um the the putting the putting this whole package together because because so right off the bat, I hear um the leads have are you know they're not um they're not named, you know, um A-list celebrities. Um it's a period piece. Uh you're releasing in the age of COVID. Um like putting something like this together, um, you and all you and your your fellow producers, um what are some of the unique maybe the unique challenges that uh you had to overcome in putting this and film together and getting it out? And and and then why are you guys choosing now uh to to to release the film? Uh boy. Yeah. Um and you have and you have 30 seconds to answer the question. No, just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:09

Well, the unique challenges about it obviously was the content. We were we were really comfortable on the cost. It's a great ensemble, and we really felt like that these uh that our performers could bring this to life in a way that was really powerful. So we we're we're always looking at the commercial, as I said. The value and the strength of the whole package was was pretty uh clear to see. Um, but you know, I think I think you've got to recognize that every production's different, right? You have different sets of stresses. As a producer, you've got to roll with it. Uh, and you you've got to do whatever needs to be done to again. I know it I know it sounds like a uh uh sounds a little trite, but you do whatever you do to support the creative vision. That's that's your job, but you're not responsible for executing it. That's what you trust the director to do. So you've got to be supporting that and be a sounding board and be a support for for him or her, right? That's the key thing. And and I would just say as a producer, you've got to be flexible and don't be afraid to say you don't know what you don't know, right? But but plan on every eventuality. So most movies take three to four years to come to life, and just remember that the marketplace can change fundamentally. Now, we we held the movie for probably for a year. We actually were trying to come out on Valentine's Day of last year, but there was this little pandemic. Um, you know, we had to stay uh flexible. We moved all of post-production to be remote. Um and DJ was literally working from home with the editor, you know, remotely connected. So you've got to be adaptive. Um, but I would say is you know, you always do what's right for the project. Uh as you reach all these crossroads and and uh and these hard decisions, you do what's right for the project. You know, I've I've had discussions on other projects uh and this one where it's like okay, you're thinking strategically about where your company is going to be in X many years. And the reality is that doesn't affect this, that shouldn't affect decisions you're making on this project. You do what's right for this project throughout. And we we released in uh uh we're releasing on January 21st because we think it's the right date. Uh we're you know three weeks before Valentine's Day. Uh there's a lot of reason, there's a lot of uh decision making that goes into that. Uh and also, you know, the pandemic was kind of over uh in the fall anyway. Uh and we we know that that all came back. Uh but you you stay flexible and you stay the course.

James Duke 1:14:42

And you guys are and you guys are uh in theaters. Um are you uh are you considering other options? Are you exclusively in theaters January 21st?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:54

So again, one of the one of the things that's different about us as even as producers is that we're also financiers. And what that does is that that makes your decision making much quicker and easier. But we're also very engaged and involved in the distribution. And I would tell most independent producers is have your distribution plan in place before you start shooting. At least know where you're gonna go. And uh look, the way the distribution marketplace has changed right now is that there's so many ways to monetize your your content. It can be overwhelming, but it's also incredibly liberating because you've got a lot of opportunities to to uh get your film in front of audiences, and each movie is different. So don't don't run the same play. Don't run the same playbook for every movie because then you'll just be a very frustrated uh executive uh or a frustrated creator. It's like every every project is different, it has its own different dynamic. Um, you know, we we as producing producers and financiers stay involved all the way through. We're overseeing the distribution. DJ will tell you we're having lots of difficult conversations about the marketing campaign because we're in we're in un, we find ourselves in uncharted water. I can say categorically that there hasn't been a movie like Redeeming Love released in the marketplace in the last few years, pre-and post-pandemic. Um, and I think we're fresh, you're original, and unique, and uh very proud of the movie that that we have. And uh I do believe that audiences are going to be delighted. But our strategy with it is uh we're gonna Universal Pictures is releasing it on a wide, wide theatrical basis, which is fantastic. And then uh, you know, we'll we'll go to premium video on demand a few weeks later, and then we'll be on you know, digital sell-through. We'll actually be on Blu-ray Disc 2 in retail uh you know later later in the year. So we've got a pretty traditional releasing, the elements of our releasing plan are fairly traditional, but the way that we're we're emphasizing them are a little bit different because of the time we find ourselves in.

James Duke 1:17:00

Yeah, that's really and that's very smart. The the uh can you just explain just briefly? I mean, well, most of my audience knows this, but the value of those opening day numbers um in terms of how they're used then to place your film in the marketplace in the other in the other services like VOD and stuff. Like the um just simply put, like there people really want to see the X amount of dollars made because it kind of helps give it a bump into those other release uh strategies, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:32

Sure. I mean, very simply, despite all the disruption, right? And we we're reading about the disruption, you know, the the introduction of the streamers and the establishment and they're all major studios in their own rights and so on, right? The number one predictor of your of your the value of your movie still is the North American box office. It actually impacts all your downstream revenues to to digital, to television, to pay TV or subscription, or and even foreign, right? And every movie has a different financing plan. Again, going back to my point, is don't don't run each movie the same way because they behave very differently, internationally, domestically, etc. Right. So you've got to be you've got to be flexible. Uh uh, you've got to be incredibly flexible on on that side. But but there are, like I say, there are tons of opportunities there. I think I might have lost my way on the question again, too.

James Duke 1:18:25

But uh no, no, you you you you're you're answering it just in terms of like it it matters. The North American box office numbers basically it activates the other the other downstream stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:36

It it yeah, because most most studios have rate cards, right, that are keyed off of domestic box office. So you have output deals that are keyed off domestic box offices. And this is one of the biggest in challenges the industry is facing right now is that we've lost transparency, right? What I mean by that is that box office is reported. That's a scorecard that the whole world can see, right? The minute you go to Pivod and to your digital transactions, we lose visibility. You have no idea, you have no idea whether people are making money or not. I mean, Netflix is a great example. I mean, and they've got a brilliant business model, and they are this, this, this uh powerhouse in and of themselves. But can you tell me if they're making money on each movie? You can't. Right. And as a producer, as a filmmaker, uh, and even I would say DJ as a director, you're you're negotiating deals and figuring things out based on a potential back end that may never mean anything. And you know, I I really want to champion projects where I think the back end does mean something. So, you know, if you can get that golden ticket from one of the streamers where they'll pay you uh double your budget or something like that, that's amazing. Yeah. Um, but and uh uh if you don't, then you've got to try and work to make sure that back end is worth something.

unknown 1:19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:51

Because you want it, you want to make sure everybody gets a chance to make money and do it again.

James Duke 1:19:55

Yeah. I remember Darren Mormon, who I know you know, told me about, you know. Uh what releasing Blue Miracle on Netflix is the you know the basic challenge of you know, you can go onto IMDB and see what other films made. You can't go on to IMDB and see what Blue Miracle made. So you don't have was it successful? Was it not successful? Like you it's it's really hard to tell um uh like those those hard numbers, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:22

And one of the key things I always tell people is don't believe the headlines. Um, you know, you you get all these headlines. Um, I have a presentation that I've done through distribution but and you know, working at the studio, if I believed every headline I saw, uh, you know, it's almost impossible to plan a business based on that. You really got to look at the headlines and go, uh, who benefits from this? What's the agenda behind this point of view of the of the future, that kind of thing? And uh and and I I find like I'm a huge believer in the theatrical business model. I know everybody says everyone's gonna go and watch movies at home. And I I work very intensely in the home entertainment area and the marketing and distribution, but there is still no substitution for having a creative, someone like DJ, make and frame all these shots and images so you can see it on the big screen. It's an immersive experience that I don't feel that you can uh fully replicate at home. I think it's this it's a sad replica for that. That's not to say every movie has to be seen in the big screen, but I mean, uh DJ also will will agree. We saw Redeeming Love in this theater in Dallas. It was actually the first time I saw it on the truly big screen. It was the first time we saw it live with an audience. And it was a fundamentally different experience, even though we've seen the movie multiple times. In fact, you know, DJs edited every scene together, it was still a fundamentally different experience. Like you're seeing it for the first time in some ways. And you know, I'm a believer in the theatrical model, and I really think uh we should be, as an industry, everybody should be doing everything we can to support it. Because I think for artists and creatives, that's how they're gonna blow our mind and transport us into these worlds and introduce us to stories and characters that you know we have a special connection with them when they're on the big screen.

James Duke 1:22:16

Yeah. I uh the the I couldn't agree with you more. The truth is is that every and how do you know how do we know this? How we know this is that the home experience is trying, they're trying to turn the home experience into the theatrical experience. The screens at home are only getting bigger, you're only wanting because the truth is, is there's something um that makes this art form truly unique to be able to go and sit in a theater and watch it in a commun as a communal experience. DJ, do you um uh obviously you you you know you want your you want the audience to see the film. You you I'm sure you prefer they they watch it on the big screen for you yourself. Do you like watching it with um with an audience? Do you sneak in opening night and sit in the back and and uh and do you do that kind of stuff for your films?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:08

Um, I've I've not I've done that a a couple times. Um, it's it's interesting. Um it's it's an interesting process, but I do love seeing it up on the big screen again because the Redeeming Love process was we literally got out of South Africa 24 hours before they basically wouldn't let you go through Heathrow anymore. I can remember, like we barely got out, and so oh wow, then then we're saying, how are we gonna edit this? And so then we did this great thing, Evercast. And Simon had mentioned earlier. So I kind of worked at home on my little 4K monitors, and then we kind of got to the dub stage. We got to see it kind of big with just a couple of us on the dub stage, but it's still and so when Simon and I took it to Dallas and we saw it with 300 and something people and on this huge screen, um, it was just so gratifying and to see the reactions and just to feel the vibe, and like you said, that communal experience in the theater, you just can't replace that, you know. Now, I guess the best for all worlds as filmmakers is that you have that theatrical experience. My instinct is that the obviously, and not this is not news to anybody, that the windows are shrinking. So if you can get out there for three or four weeks and and maybe a little longer and make some noise and stay out there, that's great. And then hopefully you have the great streaming service as your follow-up because you want to get as many eyes and ears on your movie as you possibly can. Um, I don't know much about Pivot or you know that. I I would say that I have never bought a Pivod movie myself. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've never bought one, so I don't know. Um, so it's just like you know, we try to see everything we can out there. And um, being the academy member, I'll go to the academy and see screening. So it there's there's the magic of all that, but I understand the business. And you want to, you know, if you if you understand that, like your the film you mentioned on Netflix, um what what where do people draw the line of I want to go see that movie and I I'd rather wait and watch this on Pivot or or wait for it to come on, like you know, what what can you do? And I'm hoping that our movie, particularly Redeeming Love, since there hasn't been this sort of sweeping love story in a long time, that there's a desire for people to go and communally share that experience and having experienced it with an audience, it's quite rewarding. So um, yeah, I think, and boy, you go see a comedy or an action comedy, and you, you know, I I grew up in Connecticut and saw movies in Times Square where people were yelling back at the screen when Arnold Schwarzenegger was talking people out, and it's just like it was this great communal experience of cinema. Um, or just the you know, being there at the end of Private Ryan when the lights come up and nobody move and nobody moves, like the audience is just nobody grabbed their hat, nobody grabbed their popcorn, and everyone is just sitting in the chair, like and that experience is just so magical and beautiful that you know, hopefully, like Simon says, I I hope that I hope it stays the way where you can at least be out there and experience that and have the audience experience it. But you know, you look at numbers, and you you're obviously they're going to go see the tentpole uh superhero movies, and you know, Gucci scraped out 50 million dollars, which was really encouraging um in this market. So you go, well, hopefully there's enough uh enough niche out there for movies to still still still do that and to have that second life on on the streaming service.

James Duke 1:26:19

Yeah, I I saw uh case in point, it just just happened uh this year to for me was I saw Dune on HBO Max, and then I saw Dune in the movie theater, and it's a completely different film. Yeah, it's it is it's a I don't know, I don't know how else to say it other than it's it's a completely different film because the way in which it was shot, the story that it tells, um, sound places.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:48

The sound was the biggest. I saw it both in the theater, and then I saw it here in home. Like the sound was the to me the biggest difference. It was crazy how beautiful that mix was, right?

James Duke 1:26:55

Yeah, yes, that that sound was a was integral to that uh theatrical going experience. And when you remove it, you're it's like removing a character from a from a from a from a film. Like it it something is significantly the the the the experience is significantly reduced. Now, that obviously isn't every film, but right, but it's something that we should all take into consideration.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:17

Yeah, yeah. I I would love to see, yeah, he has my pie in the skies. I'd love to see a uh uh a classic movie resurgence like filling some of the extra inventory in theaters with I'd love to see Avatar again on the big screen uh in 3D, you know, I'd love to see Patton again on the big screen. I mean, how cool would it be to see Godfather again on the big screen?

James Duke 1:27:40

Amazing. I mean I I remember when I first came to LA, it was uh Columbia's 70th, 75th anniversary, and I was a 20-something year old going to the uh the Cinerama Dome, and they were they were running all these old films. And I saw Mr. Smith goes to Washington in the Cinerama Dome, and uh, I think years later they were doing something and they did Spartacus, and I got to see Kirk Douglas in the audience and watch Spartacus on the Cinerama Dome. Like, I completely agree with you. That that is a oh man, you get me all excited just thinking about it. I I agree with you. I you know, let me close with this, and I thank you guys for this conversation. This has been such a great conversation, and um, I admire both of you and and you guys do such great work. And I want to close with this. A lot of a lot of people listen to our podcast um are uh young, aspiring, emerging filmmakers. And so I'd love just from both of your approaches, um uh DJ, with you, uh, we'll start with you. Um what's your advice to that as emerging uh director, someone who's just trying to get started? Um, what what's some advice that you have for them? Of where where should they be focusing their energies? How do they develop their craft? How do they get to the point where where they can be um trusted with uh uh with a project like Redeeming Love someday? Um what's your advice to um those emerging directors?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:13

My advice would be uh, particularly in in the day and age that we're in now, especially with the access to cameras and the things that we can do, um, is to really tell stories, like short stories, shoot some, I mean, shoot and so many people I meet that are filmmakers, emergent filmmakers, and they have nothing to show me. You know, and I'm like, you have to go out there and practice and shoot, whether it's a music video, whether it's this, whether it's that. And then also I would say, acquire, you know, it for me and for a lot of people that I know that have been successful, even just as producers or directoralists, acquire that piece of material, have the rights to the story, have something that you're working on. You have to constantly be working on something. You can't, it's a kind of you know, this is a tough business. It's a really tough business where sometimes you come out and you sit down, you're like, Well, what am I gonna do today? Like, what am I gonna do today? Well, I'm gonna write today. No, I can't write today because however it is, but you have to be doing that stuff and watch as many movies as you can. But I would say acquire that piece of material. Um, what I've noticed lately with two or three people that have just started to get young filmmakers that have merged, they have a screenplay and they shoot sort of a proof of concept, spent like$10,000,$6,000 on the proof of concept, and the proof of concept has now got them jobs and gotten them ideas. So I think it's that's a very, very important element to have as well. Uh, and then you also have a proof of concept to a feature, a small feature film that you have that you can show that you can do it. Because you're right, the biggest, the biggest concern for anybody is trust. Everyone in this business wants to say no, you know. They want to have a reason, I should say they want to have a reason to say no. Don't give them that reason to say no. You know, have a good stuff, have good film that backs it up and and really have a project that's your that's your labor of love, that you really want to focus everything on. It might not pan out, but it's gonna pan out and get you something uh in the long run. So that would that would be my advice to the filmmakers today because it's a lot easier to get eyes and ears on these shorts, whether they're online contests or all these kind of things, but you have to shoot. I mean, I have a drone, I just take my drone out every once in a while just to heck and just shoot stuff and then try to cut it together just because it's like I'm trying to learn how to use this new tool. How how can I use this new tool? But always keep pushing yourself and and don't be satisfied because it's a real easy business to say, yeah, tomorrow, I'll do this tomorrow. You know, every day wake up and have a goal of something that's going to do to help you become a better filmmaker. That's great.

James Duke 1:31:27

Thank you. Yeah, directing is different, right? Like with writing, it's like go write another screenplay, continue to write, write, write. Acting, it's go do local theater. But directing, it's a it's a it's like I get this a lot. Well, what do I do? And my whole thing is go create, go go direct. Like you don't need money, you can use your iPhone, like get pull, but but directors direct, writers write, directors direct, and it and it that's the challenge, right? The challenge is is how do I um how do I know I'm getting better as a director if if uh if no if uh if it's just me and my friends out there kind of doing it, right? Right. And and and you're right, and you're and you're right.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:05

Go and also being part of a director is watch a film that you admire and turn down the sound and think about where the camera is or where the camera is. I had I had a mentor, John Badham, who was amazing because he was incredibly trustworthy. And he directed Saturday Night Fever, he directed Blue Thunder, he directed War Games, he had so many uh, but he was really trusting, and I was his kind of right-hand guy. And he would say to me, Okay, I want you to read the scene that we're gonna shoot tomorrow, every night on this movie. And if I were to drop dead tomorrow, I want you to be able to come in and shoot this. So I took that literally. I every night would look at the scene, look at the location that he shot, and I would read it and do that. And so I was fortunate enough one day he he shot um a scene with Jimmy Woods and Michael J. Fox. That's a movie called The Hard Way, and he shot the master, it was a beautiful scene shot outside a steady cam in New York City. And then he came up to the crew and he he already talked to Michael and Jimmy and said, Yeah, you know, I I have I've got to go to the Today show today because I'm I have this other movie with Mel Gibson coming out. So I'm on the Today Show. DJ's gonna finish this scene. He didn't tell me that till that day. So um I actually came out there and did my homework, and I it was the first time I got to direct with real people instead of shooting an insert of the phone. You know, he he let me work work my way up doing inserts. So finally I get out there and and I I froze because they all go, okay, boss, what are we doing? And then I was like, Oh my gosh, what this is like this is really happening. I can't believe it. Then I was like, Okay, it was a steady cam, it was a 35 millimeter master with the steady cam. It went over this. I said, Okay, let's put on a 75 millimeter, we're gonna shoot over Jimmy uh shoulder onto Michael J. Fox. And then and they went in, they got the camera, they got the lens, and like it was just sort of like wow, they really listened, they really paid attention. And so I got thrown into the fire. But my point of that for young filmmakers is really take that, you know. You know, if you're working on a set, if you're a PA, if you're an extra, if you're working on your friend's short, think about how you would shoot the scene. Um, because you're in the middle of it, why not? And you never know if you could be helpful or not, but at least you're going through the exercise of understanding how you can communicate and how you can shoot that scene.

James Duke 1:34:07

That's great. I love that. So I'm I'm gonna go back and watch all of his films now and see if I can see the shots that you you can, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:13

After you see the steady cam, if you look at the it's a it's a scene in uh it's it was shot in um Alphabet City when Alphabet City was not what it is now, this yupified beautiful place to live in New York.

James Duke 1:34:23

That's great. I love that. Um, yeah, what a great mentor, by the way. He made some great films. Oh, yeah. Um Simon, for you, there's a you know, what do you what kind of advice or encouragement can you give to people who are uh aspiring producers, aspiring studio executives. Um, and they're they're they're they're asking the question, you know, how do I do this? I have a passion to do this, but where do where do I start? Where do I begin? How do I how do I um develop my craft?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:55

Well, D DJ said it very well, which is it's essentially always be working, right? Always be working and looking. And it's not always a straight line, right? You don't automatically go from here to there. You often take detours and be patient with the process. And I think the key thing to me is always be teachable. You know, my my film school in a way was 30 years in the studios. Um, you know, but it's like I wasn't I wasn't producing, I was marketing, I was selling, I was uh I was you know in the finance department. I just had this incredible education where I've been a department head in finance, marketing, sales, and for an overall distribution operation. Um, and I that's been kind of a blessing, but that was my film school because I get to I get to meet some of these amazing filmmakers and and just sort of be rational and pragmatic. And like I say, just be all always be working and always be teachable. Like, you know, I'm pretty old these days. I'm I'm 57 and I'm learning every day. I'm learning, and I have no problem saying this is what I don't know, right? This is what I don't know. Show me this. Uh you know, you you look at this, just remember it's a business, right? So you've got you've got to know who your audience is, who you're making it for, how are you gonna make money. You've got to at least have a plan, even though it changes or the marketplace may change. And I think the biggest thing in this that I would tell anyone coming up, whether they're creative on the financial, is don't don't internalize rejection too much. Because it's not judgment. Half the time, as as I've gone through this business, right, rejection can come across as an incredibly negative thing, but you really have no idea what's going on on the other side of the table ever. And if you make it mean too much, it's simply that project is not or this position is not the right fit at this time. And it's gonna work out, don't worry. I mean, we're a startup, we're a young financing and production company with lots of experience. We've probably looked at over a hundred different projects. We've done due diligence on probably 15 and we're we've created five. Right? And it's not because there's other projects weren't great and they weren't awesome, they just weren't a good fit, or the timing wasn't right for us, or we just had a capacity issue. And you know, you're out there competing with everybody, but but by the way, there's not just one gateway, there's not just one one home, right? I mean, people that are familiar with the industry realize this, right? Like Lord of the Rings. How many times was that movie pitched before New Line said yes? You know, and now everyone goes, oh, well, it's this massive franchise. Yeah, but nobody could see it at the time. Um, you know, we're always humbled by what we know and what we don't know. But I would just say the biggest thing is don't take rejection as a negative. Like rejection's a positive. The more times you get rejected, the better, frankly. Uh, and because it's all information. You you keep changing, like, and it could just be nothing to do with you. Like, we we've had negotiations before that have fallen apart. We've taken deeply, I've internalized it only to find out that the company I was negotiating was imploding from the inside. Yeah, and and had the deal closed, we would have been screwed. Yep. I mean, it's like just stuff we're not aware of, so there's no point you taking that on board and trying to figure out you should be trying to figure out what what you need to adjust because that's part of the always-be learning and always be working part of it. But um, and you know, I'd say know your audience, just really be in touch with the audience as as uh as much as you can because really the the ultimate success of your project uh is how many people you've connected with, right? Your characters need to be relatable, you know. You want to see people need to be able to connect to in redeeming love, they've got they've got to be able to connect to to angels. Um, you know, you you've got to relate to the characters on the screen. I think when people see Redeeming Love, there are so many things that are are applicable to our human experience. And I'm saying that from a variety of people is that I don't think the audience will have a problem seeing themselves in this world. And and I know that you'll leave the theater feeling much better than when you came in.

James Duke 1:39:13

That's great. I love it. That's such good, such a good word. I uh uh rejection is information. I think so many people need to understand that. Like rejection is just it's you're collecting data, you're collecting information, and it's you can't um uh one of the things that I that we stress at at and also the other thing you were saying about work. I stress this all the time at Act One, which is work begets work, begets work, begets work. You're not too good to take that job because you prove yourself in that job. They like you and they recommend you or they hire you for something else, and you move on, you move on. And it's the relationships over time is where you where this work comes from.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:58

Those relationships. Over time are things that you're building with every job that you do.

James Duke 1:40:03

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:03

Right. That's building your brand.

James Duke 1:40:05

Well, I'm grateful for the relationship I'm forging with you two gentlemen. And uh, and I'm just so grateful for your time. And uh I'm we really want people to go out and see this film. Uh January 21st, Redeeming Love. And um, it's a date movie, so uh take your significant other um to watch a uh a wonderful film. And um Simon and DJ, so grateful to both of you uh for just giving me your time. We like to close our Act One podcast by uh me praying for our guests. Uh would you guys allow me to do that for you?

SPEAKER_03 1:40:41

Absolutely. Let's pray.

James Duke 1:40:45

Heavenly Father, just thank you uh so much for today. And uh God, I just want to thank you for uh both Simon and for DJ. Thank you for um just who they are and how they represent you and uh and their faith in this business, how they work hard to create uh compelling films and characters and stories that uh entertain and um uh contribute to the overall whole of of uh of our community, um uh taking risks as filmmakers, um, telling stories that challenge us, that don't just entertain us, um, but uh challenge us, help us to think, um even haunt us with uh with moments that um push us towards um being more like you and uh loving others and and um just being thoughtful humans. God, I I pray that this film, Redeeming Love, I pray that um people would watch it, they would see it, and they would enjoy it for what it is, which is a beautiful romance, a beautiful love story, a beautiful story uh uh of redemption and hope. Um and that um God, that uh through that um DJ and Simon would be able to create more films that are compelling and beautiful and that uplift the audience and tell great stories that um move hearts and minds. And uh God, just thank you for our conversation. Um, pray God for um just all those who are listening today, just a blessing upon them. And uh we just thank you for all these things. We pray this in Jesus' name and your promises we stand.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:25

Amen.

James Duke 1:42:26

Thank you for listening to the Act One podcast, celebrating over 20 years as the premier training program for Christians in Hollywood. Act One is a Christian community of entertainment industry professionals who train and equip storytellers to create works of truth, goodness, and beauty. The Act One program is a division of Master Media International. To financially support the mission of Act One or to learn more about our programs, visit us online at Act One Program.com. And to learn more about the work of Master Media, go to MasterMedia.com, it's a lot of people.