Breaking down barriers - gender, taste and authenticity in vocal performance with Guro von Germeten

What's changing in musical theatre, and what needs to change? And what is authenticity in performance anyway? In their 100th episode, Gillyanne and Jeremy chat with singer researcher Guro von Germeten on her research into gender, authenticity and musical theatre.
How does taste influence your vocal training? How is gender identity challenging musical theatre casting? 
Guro shares her passion on flexibility of vocal sounds, the role of recordings in musical theatre education, and the importance of providing a safe space for vocal experimentation
If you're passionate about musical theatre, join this podcast and discover how the industry is developing.
Perfect for singers, singing teachers and musical theatre enthusiasts wanting to innovate their craft

0:00 Authenticity versus believability
01:36 Students investigating musical taste
04:46 Taking time to explore in a masterclass
06:25 We're not aiming for perfect
08:42 Using recordings in musical theatre training
10:21 Analysing multiple singers in a role
12:02 Putting their recordings onto your voice
13:30 Singing is not just sound
15:53 Training, history and attractor states
19:14 What is authenticity for a singer?
22:12 Billie Eilish is a genre
23:32 Is authenticity just commitment?
28:12 Confidence, Clarity and Commitment
31:07 Who am I that listens?
32:48 Non-binary voice in musical theatre

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Find out more about Guro
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzMK7LpMRkYvfWTK1DynaKw
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/gurovongermeten/
Guro's full PhD Dissertation on The Omnivorous Voice can be found here: https://nmh.no/en/research/projects/guro-von-germeten-completed-phd


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Transcript

Gender, Taste and Authenticity in vocal performance with Guro von Germeten

This quest for authenticity has been turned into a quest for believability. We want to believe it when we step on that stage and I love what you said about committing because then it's really committing to the story, to the intention, to the style, to the present moment of who am I in this moment singing this song today, not yesterday or tomorrow, but exactly in this moment and authenticity or believability for that, for that matter is so much about confidence and clarity and commitment and all of these things as well, which is so damn hard and so scary a lot of times. So, I mean, it's, it's a process and, and I love it. I'm not saying that we're not going to use the word, word authenticity. But it's really interesting to dig into how people toss it or not toss it around.

This is A Voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.

Hello and welcome to This is a Voice, Season 9, Episode 10. A podcast where we get vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes. And we got so excited talking with Guro von Germeten last time that we've had to have her back. She's back! Hi Guro. Hi. So on to the next topic. You know, during The course of your PhD, you actually ran a project, an action research based project where you invited your students to investigate their taste, to taste different things, to discuss with each other.

 And I know that you use Complete Vocal Technique as a vehicle for what you described as code switching, which I think is quite nice. I like that too, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I thought that was such an interesting project. How do you feel, whose taste are we following when we're educating? Let's say we're educating in a higher education situation, musical theatre singers, either on a university course, or maybe somewhere like, Guildford School of Acting, which is much more, you know, professional elite.

Preparing elite professional performers. What is our job? Who's in charge? How can we create a critical thinking atmosphere that is positive and helps the student develop their own taste, their individuality, their strength as a performer? I think so much of what we already do, uh, in these courses are about exploring tastes.

I mean, because we, we equip our tastes with all the recordings, with the theory that you were mentioning, Jeremy, your music theory, you know, all this. Our skills and, and the equipment that we use, everything is part of, of, of influencing our tastes. But I think what has been maybe lacking or what I missed in my own training was this sort of meta discussion or this time to these processes to stop and actually have our teachers and now myself, for example, as a teacher to hold space for actually these processes to occur.

And I've been so privileged that the school, the musical theater school, uh, at Kristiania University College, where I did this project in my PhD and where I also did a quite similar project with regards to the gendered singing voice this winter for my new research project and That they set aside the second year in the bachelor, they have a full week where they sort of excuse all the students from the normal everyday activities like singing lessons or dancing classes or acting classes, and then they have to go into some sort of research project.

And it could be very different. It could be rehearsing a totally new commissioned work. It could be going out exploring how they can use the musical theater skills into a business or with children, or, I mean, it could be very different things. But then you have sort of a period where the goal for the student is to explore that they are part of this profession's future.

And how, what is sort of the, uh, current topics that is going on in the business or that we need to discuss right now or have to. So we have this sort of playing time within the curriculum or within the bachelor's degree. And of course, then, then you have the chance to pause and sort of, you know, Dig into, like Nina Sun Einsheim call it, this, this pause to actually interrupt the way that we usually listen, or that we usually talk about things, and time to dwell in the complexity of things, and have the time to not just do a masterclass, but if something arises in that masterclass, we discuss it for three hours, or we say, can we explore it in an artistic way?

Can we get three others to say, sing the same phrase and, and see how they would do it? Can we spend time, which I love, can we spend time about listening to performances? Discerning performances, uh, learning to sing through other singers. Can we expand the master teacher, um, or a master apprentice model by inviting the best of the best from the business into our teaching in the form of recordings?

I, I love, you had a podcast where you said you were talking about having a singing lesson with Beyonce, uh, and, and it really speaks to me, this sort of thing. Like, who am I to expect that I could be the person that gives everything to my students? I can't. Absolutely. 

So, so it's a lot about, you know, writing these, uh, themes into it and, and hold space, not to be afraid.

To ask the students, is this what you want? Is this the sound you desire? You're giving people space for experimentation and also to even say that experimentation is allowed. You know, it's like we're not aiming for the perfect thing because the perfect thing changes every second. I think this is a very interesting model and in a way it doesn't surprise me because you know, Norway is known to absolutely lead the world in its education system and, and its thinking.

And I find it fascinating that this, um, possibility of investigation that might even change the profession itself is actually built into the framework of a bachelor degree. So that you don't feel as a teacher, because I think this is very hard for us actually if you're in a bachelor's situation or if you're doing an MA, an MA performance for instance, you've got to train the singer for the profession and there has to be an outcome and I'm just wondering, I don't know how much you've looked at, maybe had an opportunity to look at, um, uh, you know, the, the outcomes, supposed outcomes of training courses of the various curricula, but I bet a lot of them really need updating in terms of what you've just spoken about, which is this period of investigation and, and playfulness.

school where I, where I do a lot of my, like, lesson tutoring, they, they have, totally rewritten their whole curricula, the last couple of years. And, and also, in a way that has intertwined much more the acting and the singing and, and the dancing part, instead of teaching it like three separate brackets, but sort of digging into the speciality of, of musical theatre performers and, and from the first day, like, Okay, we are here experimenting together, both with movement, both with acting, both with singing.

 I mean, there is all these small steps that one can do, from just taking a step back in your teaching and I think you can do both because I also believe that we can't experiment. Well we can, but it's very hard to experiment without frames. So we can actually train and make the students aware of the expectations of the business at the same time.

And I think, again, as you know, that I wrote about recordings and the use of recordings in teaching in musical theatre in this PhD because I think there is a very large potential in listening to singing, learning to singing by the language of sounds. Our sheet music in musical theatre is not very well annotated.

We can't know how it is sung by only looking at sheet music. We get some clues from the piano, the way the groove is written, or the way the bass line goes. Of course we have all these clues. But we don't know until we have heard something. And also when it's a new work in progress, the composers have sort of an idea of a voice in head, how it's supposed to be sung.

I mean, Hamilton, uh, Lin Manuel Miranda was writing in the first casting call. We have this singer meeting this singer from Destiny's Child meeting this one or about this rapper. I mean, it's so specific, the style and the voice and the tone. these pieces are written for

. So we need sonic information to know how to sing.

And then of course you have this part of the recordings, like knowing where to go, navigating this omnivorousness, so to say, but then we also have extremely valuable information about how vocal sounds are produced. I mean, these recordings from people that sing these parts day and night and, you know, eight shows a week and everything.

So they also come with, with a lot of really useful vocal technical information. And when I, if I don't know how to help a singer, Then I say, let's go to some recordings and see how they do it. What is the vowel? What is the volume? Is it a lot of volume or is it a lot of emotional intensity? Is it, you know, is it what kind of sound qualities are we listening to?

Are they really like belting it out or doing full metal, or is it actually more contained and held back, but the emotional output is so big that it makes it sound like a big sound for instance. Yes. Yes.

 So you have all these things and then you also then have the possibility to start these discussions with, okay, now we've listened to the recording from West End and we have listened to the recording from Broadway, or even we have listened to, I love the difference between Idina Menzel, Lindsay Mendez, Hannah Courneau you know, all these different Elphabas on Broadway where you think that they are all doing the same things, but when you really listen, you say, Oh, it's something happened with Elphaba after Dear Evan Hansen was a huge success. Suddenly it was much more quirky, vocal breaks, much more indie singing, even in Elphaba. That was sort of allowed into it, lower volumes, more contained, more indie singing than the full blown, um, happy vowels, open the windows belting that we heard in the, in the first shows.

 Then students also understand that they have a lot of space to maneuver. We open up for some sounds, but we also have the possibility to sort of like, okay, but what if I add this or break this? And then we can have the, we can have the discussion

. Going, going a stage further, which is You're listening to recordings, and I do this a lot.

We listen to a recording and we listen to three recordings of the same song with three different people. And the point is, that person is doing this, that person is, and I love the way you're analyzing sound, it's really good. And that person has a different voice to you. So you can do that, but it's not going to sound the same on your instrument.

And it shouldn't sound the same on your instrument because you have a different instrument. So let's make it work on your instrument. So we get the same effect, but it's not going to sound exactly the same. And I think that's important too. Yeah. It's one of the biggest things that certainly, you know, in our background, when we were working more regularly in musical theatre that, you know, people would come in, Oh, I've got to sound like this.

I'm doing an audition for, I don't know, Frozen, and I must, I've got to sing that iconic song in this way. And, you know, you're listening as a vocal guide and you're thinking, you're trying to produce the same sound output that you hear on the film. I bet it's not done like that live.

In fact, if you go on YouTube, you'll see that it isn't, and that's okay. You will not be able to produce that sound output from your individual voice. Once it's, you know, it's out there and it's being put through a sound system on the stage, things will change. But let's make it work for your voice and your performance.

 And it's almost like when we talk about people finding their voice, we're not just talking about the sound output, are we? We're talking about them as a person, them as a person inhabiting that character, in that piece of music, it's, this is why our voices are so important to us. You know that they're really about us and what it is that we have to say and share with the world.

And also I think it's, it's so important to understand that, or for me it's, has been important to understand that this Our own voice is not just one voice that would have this vast aesthetic potentiality within us. And I, my favorite that I also used on, on, on the PhD defense is this example of, of Jessie Mueller singing Loretta Lynn in a, in a country movie.

And then she's doing Carole King in the musical Beautiful. And then she's. She's starring in Carousel, like, besides Renee Fleming, and sounds like a, you know, trained classical soprano that has nothing else for the rest of her life, and then she's doing contemporary pop music in Waitress, and, and full blown Scatting, vocal effects, high volumes in one day, on a one clear night, one clear day, you'll see forever what the show is called.

On a clear day, yes. You'll see forever. And, and, and then it's, and I think this is also so important that even though we have, and we have really different sizes and attractor states in our voices, but our flexible parts are so much more than our fixed part. So the way we can use our instrument to make the, the, the sound color darker or lighter, or we can change all of these things, or we can make other parts of our vocal apparatus vibrate, not just the vocal cords and all of this stuff.

We have so many opportunities. And then of course, this is always coming back to the, my favorite word, uh, negotiation. These things are always in negotiation with the physiological, habitual, emotional, material side of our bodies and being. And, and that will always have to be negotiated

 I can't escape that I have done most of my training in this way doing classical scales. And even though I wish that I hadn't, because I wish I'd trained something totally different. It will be part of my sound. I can change it. But there is an attractive state making me going back to more of a falsetto setting, more of the rounded vowels, more of the darker sound color, uh, in my singing.

And I really have to work hard and, and we're not going into neuroscience, but build like new neural pathways and isolate it. And. And do something because we can't erase it. We just have to make new pathways that are stronger than our habitual one. And I mean, that's also the case with this omnivorous voices.

I don't expect everybody to do everything. That's not a goal in itself. But it happens to be sort of a demand in our business in the musical theatre business, so we have to choose to play with it or not play with it, but I mean, there is so much growth potential in acknowledging this as a potentiality of the voice, but there are so many reasons why a lot of people choose to do one thing and just do Country, for example, and just dig into that and have one setting that works perfectly and that they are really happy about. And that works for their audience as well. Yeah. No, I think I love the way you talked about the attractor states. Um, and it made me smile when you talked about the scales, because if I'm warming up. I will do pretty typical scales, a bit of staccato, and I might be working with a jazz singer, and, you know, maybe I'm modeling a sound, and I'll see their face, and I'll go, okay, I'm sounding a bit West End y, that's not what I'm expecting from you, you know, because we, we have these, these This, these sonic memories, you know, um, and the pathways that you've talked about.

And of course, there are well traveled pathways, the way we shape our resonance, and maybe our muscle, habitual muscle use has gone with that as well. You know, we shouldn't, we shouldn't feel bad about this. It's, it's part of who we are, it's part of our background, but again, having that awareness of where that aesthetic comes from so that we don't impose it on someone else. Well, two things. One is that, um, this is part of your history. And if you don't bring your history and yourself into a performance, then you are basically cheating the audience because we want to hear you. We want to hear your version. We want to hear your completeness. This is, I'm back on congruency again.

The second thing. is that that history of singing classical music has got you to this point. And therefore, that's why it's so valid because it got you singing. It got you into, I mean, you know, my piano playing got me to where I am now. And, and part of me still thinks of myself as a pianist, but. Mm hmm.

You know, I'm, I'm a person. I'm me. I'm a whole mix of a whole load of things. And that happens to be one aspect. It's a very strong aspect, but it's just one aspect of what I do. And I think if you, it brings you to this point in time and you can go anywhere from it. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And then playing a bit Devil's Advocate, if I may?

Yes, please do. Go on then. We'd be disappointed if you didn't. Well, the first thing you said, because this is also, I'm very occupied with this at the moment, where you said, like, we want to hear you and we want to hear all of you and we hear this congruence, as you call it, um, on stage

 And, and I think this is also like, um, A very interesting topic because it brings me to what I'm going to talk a bit about at the conference at the, later in, in London, and where I'm going to talk about singing and gender, but I'm also going to talk about authenticity.

Which is a buzzword within singing. Yes. And which also makes me every time somebody says, I want to hear you on stage, that is also a very dangerous territory. Yes. Because who am I to tell who are you and who am I to tell that what I feel real, what I think is believable, is believable for you.

And some of the greatest performances that I have seen, and I've talked to co workers, um, Uh, after doing a show, uh, you know, on a, and I was like today, wow, you blew my mind. And they were like, really today? I was like, my toe was aching and my, you know, I was, I was worried about catching the train, you know, all of these things happen. And especially as singing teachers, this authenticity word or your own voice or all of these terms that are really, really saying something that we believe that there is some sort of essence and some sort of fixedness in our students or something that is real and something that is fake and all of these things is a very dangerous territory to, to go into because we use all these words and I, and I believe especially like authenticity for me in this piece that I'm going to talk about or this part of my research that I'm going to talk about in, in London is just an example. Something that could be called something else.

Authenticity is this way, like, you have to be authentic. It's so important for performers to be authentic. And then we don't discuss what this term actually means. We have authenticity that is like, something is real and something is fake. And then we have stylistic authenticity, as you were talking about, Jeremy.

Like, okay, with early music, we had this like, Uh, phase where it was so important to find out how was the actual instruments and how were they really playing or how, and then we believe that we have some sort of source for authenticity in, in, in, in, with regards to, to style, like a stylistic authenticity.

And then we have this sort of idea that everybody has got a unique voice print. And we think that that's something that we are born with. But it was really nice. I was interviewing one of my informants of the Broadway voice teachers in this PhD and the way that they were talking about, uh, Billie Eilish, for example.

And it's like, it's so authentic. It's her style. And I mean, that's also like, you know, she's so stylistic in her singing. She's almost like a genre, Billie Eilish. And, and we were like, yeah, but she is the original. So she's the authentic one. And everybody else that sings, you know, we have all these ideas about what authentic is instead of seeing it as a, as a process of finding out where my voice potentially separates or can uniquely shine. But that's an influence of my history and my training and my wishes, my taste and everything. And then we also have this sort of inner authenticity that may be going on.

Do I actually show up to my own values? as you were talking about Jeremy. Is, is this in line or am I now trying to please somebody else? Does this feel right? Does this feel good? Is this the story I want to tell? Is this what is important to me? And then we have all this different you know, authenticities in play.

And do we actually know which one we are talking about when we ask our singers to be more authentic? I love that. I love that. Absolutely. I am, I am completely taking that on board and I'm also going. Yeah. There's some, okay, let's break down authenticity then. I wonder whether it's a, it's a form of commitment in some way, you're committing to something.

Now that could be committing to the style, it could be committing to the context, it could be committing to just being yourself and not giving a damn. Could be any of those things. I think, you know, some of the things we do, I love what you've said about authenticity because there's a real danger. Yeah.

There's a real danger as a trainer that you are then interpreting somebody's personality and their values and making a value judgment on it that is potentially quite dangerous. But I was thinking about some of the performance techniques that you and I developed, you know, like we have the front foot back foot, which is just a physical way of investigating, you know, Um, how things change for the singer when they literally move on to their front foot, you know, and what's, how does that inform what, what they're saying in the sound of their voice when they move on to the back or maybe they're in a, in a neutral.

Um, and also the answers on a postcard that we do. Mm hmm. where we asked the singer to sort of frame how they feel and think about the beginning of the song and their message and their interpretation of it in a phrase or a little picture, and they put it on the postcard. And we always say, you will know when that postcard is right for you.

It's not what I think is a good idea. It's what you think. And whenever they use a postcard that works for them. Something happens, it's like the hairs start to stand up, and that, that's the place that we need to take them to. Okay, there is something very specific about both of those exercises that you just said, which is, we give them a framework and then we let go.

Yes. And they explore within that framework and they find themselves what happens with that thing. We don't tell them what happens and we also don't give them wording. Yeah. So we're giving them a very specific task to do, but there is no. official outcome. And that's about doing something but not expecting something.

And, and that's going back to taste, that is also what I mean by this holding space for our students, that it's like we give some frames, we introduce them to stuff, we talk about things that we, we think they should listen to, that we, that makes us tick. And, and then we make all these frames, but it's about putting themselves and ourselves in a state where we are taken, where we let go, where something acts upon us and all of these things.

I totally have performances where I believe the performer and performances where I don't believe them, but I think it's very, uh, very important to be aware of that lies within me. Again, Like, who am I who listens to this voice in this matter? Was I available of listening?

 Was my heart or my body even opening for taking in somebody that is present in this moment? And all of these sort of things, it's, it's, it's a lot, and I write about this in the PhD as well, that, that when we are, for example, in musical theatre playing with all these different genres, You, you, you can't tell that we are looking for, for example, authenticity in a way that's saying that this is the way my voice was born or this is the way this type of singer, this innate style that lives within me.

But we are sort of always, uh, searching, you know, this quest for authenticity has been turned into a quest for believability. We want to believe it when we step on that stage and I love what you said about committing because then it's really committing to the story, to the intention, to the style, to the present moment of who am I in this moment singing this song today, not yesterday or tomorrow, but exactly in this moment and authenticity or believability for that, for that matter is so much about confidence and clarity and commitment and all of these things as well, which is so damn hard and so scary a lot of times. So, I mean, it's, it's a process and, and I love it. I'm not saying that we're not going to use the word, word authenticity. But it's really interesting to dig into how people toss it or not toss it around.

I love that little trinity of confidence, commitment and clarity. I love those. I want to fire something back at you because it was very clear what you said and I want to check if this is what you meant. When I translate what you say It's that when you recognize authenticity in someone else, it's actually your own authenticity that you're recognizing and not theirs.

Yeah. Yeah. It says something about if you believe them or not, and if you believe somebody or not has so much to do with you. Okay. It has a resonance. That's so interesting. It has a resonance within you. Within you. And that's your history and your background. Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. So the audience is always part of it.

Well, this is the point. Not just the singer. So this is, it's a, it's a, it's a reflection of the energy exchange that's happening. Yes. Yeah, and you are such a big part of it yourself. Yeah. So to put that on, and I think that's really stressful for our singers also as well, to put all of that on them like, now you're authentic or you're not, you're not, now you're singing in your own voice, now you are not, all these judgments that we sort of, uh, put on and instead of like, This is a process, but also again, like with our taste, being honest, like, wow, now something happened that made a reaction in my body.

When you say that phrase, poof, the goose bumps. I have very, very sensitive skin when I teach singing. So if I'm working on something technical with my students and then they sort of This is a metaphor, but go into the center where the balance between the support and the, the vibratory pattern and the position of the voice is sort of balanced.

So it feels free, they get like an output. Then the hair rises on my forearms. When we work with something emotional or expressional, uh, like expression or something that has to do with the intention of the piece. And for me, I suddenly believe them. I feel it on my overarms, then the hair rises there. And when those two things.

occur at the same time. I get the chest, I get it on my chest. Oh, you should do a PhD on that. I'm with you on that. And of course, for me, these are tools in my teaching. Yes. Of course, these are tools. , but to make them a truth for the singer Yeah. Of when they are, you know, it could be that it, when when it, it, I'm not saying that it happens often, but it could be that my hair rises on the technical part and the singer still feels that something is strange.

Yeah. That, that feeling has to ruin, you know, win over my arms. . Yeah. And the same thing with like, wow. Now I felt it in, in like my chest. And they are like, yeah, but that's not the story I want to tell. Then we have a discussion or then, then, then my opinion doesn't matter. And I think those things are very, again, back to Nina Sun Eidsheim, who am I who listens to this voice?

And knowing that the meaning that we extract or hear or, um, add to a voice. is our background. It's our associations. It is something that's very precious to me just now, which is, as a teacher, you need to be asking yourself, Who am I? Yes. If you want to be an effective teacher. a good teacher, a good guide.

Um, you have to ask yourself those questions. It's really important. And then you have space to be yourself as well. Yes. Because we can't be valueless in our teachings. Our student comes to us because they want to, I love this expression, they want to make sure that they don't look in the wrong direction in the sky when a comet

yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah. So, so, so they come to us because they believe that we have taste or awareness or, uh, um, presence to, to notice these changes and, and, you know, to be a guidance, it's always this, this thing. So we, I don't mean that we should be valueless, but to be able to know our values and, and not defend them or disguise them as something else, like, yeah, but this is the way it has to be done, or this is the tradition, or this is, this is fixed or, or anything

. And, and linking back to the gendered voice and the gender of, of these authenticities, because, I mean, there is so much interesting, uh, things about voice going on now, where we, when we no longer can regard gendered as binary. We have all these transitions going on when we have the concepts of the non binary.

And, and in my research, it was interesting to see that this was the place where the students really wanted to break with sonic expectations of the moment, with due to gender. Why do I have to sing this way just because I have a penis? Sorry for my language, but no, no, fine. Make it, make it simple. Um, and, and also that this way of knowing that there is such things as non binary people makes also non binary voices and how does this affect how we teach all voices?

Yes. And with authenticity, I think it's an interesting term because we, for example, look at a lot of the tools that are being used in, for example, working with transgender singers or speakers, for example, female assigned at birth, uh, transitioning to male, all these things. Is that we, we have, for example, these apps where they use the word authenticity.

Like this app will help you find your authentic voice or this app will, you know, this, all of this, what is an authentic female voice, what is an authentic male, so called male voice and all of these things. And then when we look at it, we see actually what, for example, these apps are using is like, It's a white, middle upper class, able bodied, European white woman.

That is what we make, for example, define as a female sound. And say this is an authentic female sound that we use as our sound template to build female voices for those who want to feminize their voices, for example. So, all of these, again, the awareness of this short cutting that we were talking about in musical theatre as well.

I think these aspects, we see them out there in real lives as well. And, and for example, for me, where I work a lot with opening up the aesthetic possibility of voices. And not like, it's very strange to use terms as falsetto called like fake voice in a man compared in contrast to the chest, you know, and, and all of these things without discussing it.

Why, why is this building the chest voice or metal modes, as I would call it, uh, so important in the way we train male singers and not so important in the way we train female singers, for example. Uh, and all of these things that there are mixing ideas about what gender is. and what is voice and what would be then thrown into that mix.

Yeah, and also the way that traditionally in western lyric music we have organized the part writing, you know, the four parts, the bass, the tenor, the alto or the mezzo and the soprano, okay, um, you know, if you sing in falsetto maybe you can sing alto as a male, but the whole way we've organized our harmonies has been based around a binary structure.

Which is fascinating, really looking forward to this, this talk, um, Guro, and also knowing more about the research when it's further on. Yeah, thank you. And, and I think that's interesting because if we're linking it back to contemporary musical theatre again, I think that, If you see a score of Dear Evan Hansen or Hamilton, it doesn't say bass, soprano, alto anymore.

It says company. And it's so, linking back to taste and everything, it's so much interesting experimentation that is possible within that, that I also did with my students, is actually, how does it sound if we take like the binary groups and singing this way? How does it sound if we do two octaves, uh, in this chord or add, you know, more of this experimentation and then you get this like, Oh, there it is.

There is something that speaks to my taste, and this, all this experimenting with that individual, um, attractor state, if you might call it, the qualities, the, the, the wishes of the singers can actually trump this expectation, cultural expectations of what gender should sound like. And I find it extremely interesting to, to also see that Contemporary Musical Theatre is really opening up this space now.

And yeah, taste is changing and so it should. Yes, absolutely

. We are going to have to stop. This has been amazing. I know we would have to have you back at some point. Yes, yes. Yeah, I love talking to you guys and I must say it's such an honor to be here and, and doing a PhD, uh, is really like a time travel because when you start doing your PhD, you start by reading all these amazing people that have done work before you and, and Gillyanne, you were one of the first ones that I read and, and really influenced my research with your PhD. And then when you look four years later, it's amazing to be granted access into the room and actually share your own thoughts and ideas. And so many of the people that I read in my first years as a PhD student is now colleagues and people I discuss with and I just have to say to you two as well, thank you for welcoming me on the podcast and into this community with open arms and wanting to keep talking and, and exploring all these wonderful things about voice.

So you are so welcome and keep doing it. Community of inquiry. Yeah. Yes. So we, we, we're going to, we're going to invite you back. Yeah. We'll see you later. See you next time. Bye.

This is A Voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.