A Voice Teacher's Dilemma: Rehab vs Overreach - with Mike Ruckles

What actually happens in a top-tier vocal coach's studio? What is "crack sob" and why is it so common in Broadway belting? What's the deal with voice rehab?
In this episode of This Is A Voice, Gillyanne and Jeremy are joined once again by Mike Ruckles - Broadway vocal coach and Singing Voice Specialist - to explore the fine line between SLPs (SLTs in the UK), ENTs and voice teachers in voice rehabilitation.
From navigating professional boundaries in vocal rehab to decoding the latest Journal of Voice research on "register instability", we're chatting about the world of high-level voice care.
Whether you're a singing teacher, voice professional, or just obsessed with vocal health and performance, this one's a must-watch.

00:00 Vocal health for singers on Broadway
02:12 Singing voice rehab when not an SLP/SLT
06:00 Jeremy’s word of caution on vocal rehab
08:45 The role of an SVS (singing voice specialist)
09:33 Gillyanne’s story of the singer’s diagnosis
12:12 Teaching MT role vs tour gig
15:19 Can we talk about key?
17:53 Researching the crack/sob
22:16 The process of research

🔗 Read the published study:
PubMed Abstract https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40087078/
Direct Access via Elsevier https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0892199725000918?dgcid=author

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Transcript

Speaker: 0:11

Gillyanne and Jeremy: This Is A Voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. This Is A Voice. Hello and welcome to, This Is A Voice, season 11, episode six, the podcast where we get Vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes, and he's back. We had such a good time with Mike Ruckles, so welcome back, Mike. Mike Ruckles: Thank you. Gillyanne and Jeremy: There's no such thing as a typical day or a typical week in the Mike Ruckles studio, but give us a typical day or a typical week. Yeah. Mike Ruckles: Sure. I tend to see my Vocal rehab people earlier in the day. I'm not an SLP, I wanna be clear about that. I work as a singing voice specialist in collaboration with SLPs and ENTs and Otolaryngologists some brilliant ones that I love here in the city about three or four different clinics. And so I try to put those people earlier in the day because I find that they require a different energy. I. They require more of me in an interesting way. There's so much more to delve into there. There's the psychological aspect, there's the physical aspect, there's the Vocal aspect. Most of them are performers, and so it's highly charged on many of these levels. And so I try to see them, not always, but usually earlier in the day when I'm fresh and, I have the most energy. And then the rest of the day is a, an eclectic mix of Broadway performers, some pop and rock artists. I really thrive. For me personally, what gets me jumping outta bed in the morning is the eclectic nature of who I can see. It's keeping keeping one foot in many different realms of the music industry so that I can, I feel like it helps me to be of more use, certainly to my music theater people, because music theater involves and encompasses all of these sounds, right. But it helps me also just to stay on my toes as an educator. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Yeah, I really like that. Can we circle back to the topic of singing voice rehab? You've mentioned you're not an SLP and that you work in tandem with various what we describe as voice clinics. How do you see your role? At what point do you pick up? Do you know, are you involved in referring on if perhaps you come across something and you think I don't think I wanna deal with this until, and then do you get referrals from the clinic? How does it work? Mike Ruckles: Generally works that a student is referred to me from a clinic where perhaps they have, not always, they have been diagnosed with an issue and maybe have gone through a course of speech therapy with one of the in-house SLPs. Maybe they haven't. Maybe the ENT just determined, I don't think this is a speech issue. I don't think this is something that an SLP is going to make great progress with. This is really stemming from more of a singing voice use issue and they refer on to an SVS to continue that journey. But it is always a collaborative effort. And I echo, Claire was talking about the importance of staying in your lane, whether you are not treading on the director's toes or you're not treading on the music director's toes. And I think it's incredibly important, especially in this collaborative environment, that I am not, well, certainly I am not qualified to diagnose. I do not wanna step on the SLPs toes. I don't want to to overstep my bounds. And so we're all working within our parameters and it has been one of the most satisfying collaborations. No matter which SLPs and ts that I've been working with, Laryngologists, it has been really lovely to see the way that they welcome in someone from technically outside the medical community and want to involve them in the rehabilitative process because they recognize the importance of that. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Do you know, I'm really happy to hear this because first of all, it's something I'm really passionate about because as you know, I've been quite public about the fact that I had a voice problem about six or seven years into my career as a promising singer, and I could not get the answers that I needed. And it's one of the reasons why I do what I do. I love the fact that you respect the boundaries. I'm also really happy to hear that, for example, you're not saying something that gets talked about a bit in the UK is that there is a little bit of ring fencing of the different disciplines. What do they call it? Gatekeeping or there's gatekeeping between the disciplines. I think this is a terrible mistake. And personally I've never experienced it. Anytime I've been in touch with a speech and language therapist, they've said, yep, make sure we have the client's permission. Let's talk. I've done this with them. Come into the clinic. And it's a wonderful learning curve in both directions because ultimately the person who's going to suffer, if there's any kind of gatekeeping on either side, is the client. And what we want is for that client to be singing sustainably again. Mike Ruckles: I quite agree. And I've only in my career, I think, encountered once an SLP that I reached out to who was, who seemed, not outrightly, but just seemed to, to put out that vibe of I'm not interested in collaborating. And I went, great. This is not somebody that I will seek to work with moving forward. But that was by far an exception to what I have found. I find that most SLPs, their primary goal is above ego, above all else, to help this person and anybody they can involve in that rehabilitative process who has a piece of the puzzle to insert, they're gonna invite you in. Gillyanne and Jeremy: I'm going to do a word of caution because I think it's necessary. The thing that really shines from the way that both of you and Gillyanne talk about this is a sense of respect. Is that you have respect for the medical team, you have respect for the speech language therapist, you have respect for the singers. And I think that is absolutely crucial that there is mutual respect. And I can see, I have seen examples where a singing teacher rides a rough shot over absolutely everybody else. Well, you see what Mike said was I don't diagnose. Yeah. And what we say to our teachers, I'm sorry I've interrupted you, but that's I'm picking up your thought, which is we don't diagnose and we don't treat not in the way that someone in the medical profession does. What we do is we begin to apply in practice, in the work environment. We learn how to generalize that behavior again, within the performing environment, I think there are re, I mean you talk about staying in your lane, there are really clear lanes and it's very clear when you realize what someone's job is, which lane they live in. So if you are a surgeon, you are going to live in Surgeon Lane and that's going to involve slicing and cutting and fixing and doing all sorts of things physiological. So I'm sure there's better. I'm not the wonderful way you've described that. I'm sure there's a better way of putting that, but we'll stay with it for the moment. If you're a speech therapist, then your goal, your job is to help people get back to a functional speaking voice. Change functional behavior. In however that works. The thing about a functional speaking voice goal is that it is exactly that. It's functional speaking voice in what, however, that works In whatever situation. What isn't included in that goal is singing, because singing is extended. It's extended in pitch, it's extended in timing. It's extended in rhythm. It's extended in all in tone, therefore, tone colour. There's all sorts of things that go with the switch from speaking to singing and speech Therapists are not trained to deal with singing voice. That's ultimately what it boils down to. Very few. You may find that there are some singers who have then qualified as speech therapists, speech pathologists. And that's fine. They're still not necessarily trained to deal with the rehabilitation of a singing voice. And I think this is really interesting is that the role of the singing teacher is to take everything that everyone has done so far and then start applying it to the singing voice in a way that still agrees with everything that's been done so far. You can't do it in an isolated way, and you can't take over any of the other jobs. End of rant. Mike Ruckles: Couldn't agree more, couldn't agree more. And that's a great way of putting it. I don't, I cannot think of a time when I have interacted, collaborated with an SLP, of course, always following our HIPAA rules, permission through the client always and through the patient. I can't think of a time that I have ever had a conflict of approach with an SLP. I may have felt, oh you're absolutely correct, and I have another piece of this puzzle that maybe you haven't thought of, or, wow, that's amazing. You've put a piece together. I haven't, right. We may, but I don't think there's ever been a moment where I said no, you're wrong. And I've got this right and I'm gonna fix this. I'm gonna take this off on my own and I'm, but we do see a lot of that. We do see voice teachers going, famously going, I will rehabilitate your voice. Well, that is not within your purview. It is not within your purview. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Absolutely. I've certainly been in a situation where maybe a singer has come back to me and said, it's still not working and I've had this and I've had this. And maybe, because we don't just get 30 minutes with them, we get an hour with them and maybe we work with them several times. Maybe we've worked with them previous to them having a voice problem. I have more than once said, look, I think you need to go back. I have noticed this and I'm wondering if we're going down the right path. It's called a little frisson. But fortunately in that case, I've had the speech therapist, whom I knew professionally from our professional organizations call me and say, oh, I noticed that, you sent this person for a second opinion. And I found myself defending myself until they said, turns out you were right. We looked at it again, and it was this, it was a very complex case. Now, I was able to be graceful when this person called me and say, listen, this is why I did it. If you'd rather, I contacted you first, please let me know. I'll do so in the future. But this client was worried and this client was stuck. So it wasn't ever a moment where I said, oh, I think the diagnosis is wrong. For me, it was about, I think we need to dig a bit deeper. I think there's something else going on here, and sometimes we can spot things that they don't spot and vice versa. So, Mike Ruckles: I'm always very suspicious when I see if this is how to put it, but I see a voice teacher operating as an island. There's no referral, there's no bringing in this person, that person. I can do it all myself and I can do it with the singer and we will get you. I'm constantly referring to mental health professionals, to ENTs, to SLPs, to I, I need my team. I need my team to chiropractors, to ortho osteopaths, massage therapists. Yeah. We need their team. And that's one of the biggest things I try to instill as well in young artists is you are a business and you need to. Even now when nothing might be wrong, begin to form, formulate what is your team? Who do you have around you? Do you have your laryngologist, do you have your voice teacher? Do you have your Vocal coach with whom you work on interpretation? Do you have your acting teacher? What who do you need? And that's gonna differ from person to person. Gillyanne and Jeremy: I think that's very nice. As you say it takes a village and you need a village. And particularly a high level, a performance artist needs a village as well in order to survive. I want to switch topics for the moment. Is there a difference, because you teach so many different types of people. Is there a difference between teaching somebody for a musical theater role and somebody for a tour gig? Mike Ruckles: There is. But I would like to say that. Diff the similarities far outweigh the differences. I think that the number one thing that comes to mind is that a music theater performer, our goal is to work on the arc of a character over an entire evening, right? Where every song is in service to the next moment for the character, to the next moment, to the next song. There is, there's a linking of all of that. Not to say that may not be true for somebody like Beyonce, who I don't work with, I should say. I wish. But but for Beyonce very well may be that she has formulated something of an arc over the evening. But for her and for most pop rock artists, the arc is within each song we have a two to three minute arc from song to song. And so, and sometimes as you said earlier, I think Jeremy, sometimes it's more of a vibe than it is a dramatic arc. Right. But nonetheless we're working on that arc. And so it's about whether we're looking at this big picture arc over an evening and or we're looking at individual arcs, but nonetheless, the issues of stamina, the issues of, the nice thing working with my rock pop artists, my jazz singers, cabaret artists, is that they, contrary to the music theater performers do have the luxury of creating their own set list. So the order of in which they put their songs right. We're not gonna put 10 power ballads back to back. Right. That, that's enormously valuable, where we may not have that luxury in music theater. Well, we don't, we certainly don't. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Absolutely. And I I love the whole building of a set. I talk about Lego bricks, that songs are Lego bricks and you just build a small piece of Lego TM and or a. I and then you start building bits together, and what you end up with is the whole arc of the gig tour. And the set isn't just for the vocalist. Yes, of course. It's for the audience. Yes. Yeah. But the advantage is if you're having a bit of a rough day, you didn't sleep well, swap your bricks around. You swap the bricks around. Yeah. Mike Ruckles: And know a lot of my discussion, I do think with my pop rock artists and cabaret is, well, they're, they have. Sometimes strange ideas about what the audience is there to experience. And sometimes there has to be a little bit of a recontextualizing of what is your audience valuing? Is they are they valuing their time with you, whatever offering you bring to them on a given evening? Or are they determined to hear specifically this song in specifically this key Gillyanne and Jeremy: That old chestnut. Mike Ruckles: How how so, so it's a lot of recontextualizing and just reminding them gently that the audience is there to have an experience that they've curated and they can curate it however they see fit. Gillyanne and Jeremy: That's a very good point. Can we talk about key? Mm-hmm. Because it's such an interesting thing, which is 90% of your audience will not know what key you are in. Mike Ruckles: Dare I say 90, 98. Gillyanne and Jeremy: yeah sure. You absolutely can. And I think it's really interesting that if, that the experience that they want on a gig tour, the experience that they want is more likely to be the experience that they had when they first heard the song, which has absolutely nothing to do with you. Mike Ruckles: that's right. Gillyanne and Jeremy: It's like, oh, I was on my honeymoon on this one, and therefore all the memories are about the honeymoon and the way that song made you feel. Which again, is not necessarily the way that you wrote the song or the impression that you wanted to give And so there's a certain element of, I just need to put this song in somewhere, because I know so many people love it. But given the Lego bricks that I've just built around this, I can't sing it in that key so Can we bring it down a tone, please? Mm-hmm. Mike Ruckles: Precisely, Gillyanne and Jeremy: Who cares? Mike Ruckles: precisely. No one. No one cares. Gillyanne and Jeremy: That's interesting. About the 98%. Yeah. And I'm sure you're right. Yeah. Until somebody videos it puts it online and going oh no, it's in a lower key. It's like, yeah. Whatever. And then, our job in the profession is to go. Yes. Isn't that interesting that it's different from the, the key on on the original album. Ooh. And why might this be? And that's so important for, young performers who hear their icons and then they try to reproduce that finished studio sound with their voices. This is another topic that we could discuss. We worked in the studios with singing at length. It's amazing what you can do. Mike Ruckles: In music theater, you'd be shocked at how often. I don't think you would be shocked. You two would not be shocked, but many people would be shocked to discover how often the cast album key is not being performed. Tonight. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Yep. Yep. Mike Ruckles: Famously, I think Sutton Foster. Rarely sang astonishing in little women in that original key that she recorded it, it was almost never in that key and good for her. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Yeah, because she didn't wanna do it eight shows a week, or six shows a week, ham, however many. It's a hard sing. Yeah. Yeah. Mike Ruckles: It's an epic marathon. Especially some of these songs like Meadowlark, Astonishing, they are, that are, six, seven minute songs. It's not only about that high E at the end, it's about the stamina to arrive there and the storytelling that happens along the way and what you would like to accomplish may be easier in D than in E. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Yeah. Mike Ruckles: yes, all of the above. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Oh, good thing to remember. Yes. Right. Yes. Let's get it. Indeed. Yes. So, Mike, is there anything that you want to talk about with us that we haven't done so far? Is there anything that, you feel really passionate to share? Mike Ruckles: Goodness, we've had such a wonderful, wide ranging conversation today. I feel like we've touched on so many things that have been on my mind lately. I can share with you a little bit about the research that we just concluded at NYU. I did a partnership with Dr. Aaron Johnson at NYU and we looked at a very interesting study. It was my first Vocal study, so it was very thrilling for me. My first paper that we just published and what we found we were, it began with a question as I think many good studies do. Dr. Johnson had said to me, if there's ever anything you observe in the Voice Studio that you think would make a really fascinating study, please bring it to me. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. And I said, there is an onset in music theater that I hear constantly. I. And I use myself and I use in my teaching to some effect. And sometimes in fact, it gets overused. But why is it overused? Why do people favor it? So, and the term that I've given it in the studio is crack sob. I. And it is or jokingly, we will sometimes refer to it as the Jeremy Jordan because he he's like a premier example of someone who would use that. And it's always in high range. We can hear it. We did not create it. We can find it in Verismo opera. We can find it in Cannio singing Vesti la Giubba we can, this did not, we did not create this, but I don't know that anyone's ever looked into the why of it. What is it accomplishing? Is it simply an affect? Is it simply a communicative device or is there a technical element to it as well? So we brought 10 Broadway females and 10 Broadway men into the clinic. And we recorded both with sound. We recorded EEG. And we looked at we wanted to see what's happening at the Vocal fold level when we are, that sound that we hear a lot of, and it's like what Dr. Johnson calls it, and I love this term, is a register instability, right? A, a purposeful register instability. Why do we do that? Well, my hypothesis going into it was several. I thought it was killing many birds with one stone. I thought that predominantly I noticed that it organized the body from the transversus up because if you put your hand on your low transversus you go ho, you sob, Gillyanne and Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. Mike Ruckles: entirely organized from the transversus and the maybe a little of the obliques. And so it was simplifying breath in a way. It was getting us down to, instead of the entire abdominal girdle firing, it seemed like it was simplifying things for people. But also you noticed that in the, what there is, there's an, there's a little bit of a error being jettisoned. So I think we're also dropping our subglottic pressure level a little bit. One of the things that I hadn't taken into advantage, which into consideration, which I think ended up being one of the most interesting factors, was that we really couldn't get a good reading on the Vocal folds. The readings were all over the place and we couldn't figure that out because, Dr. Johnson is a master with this. He's wonderful with this equipment. It wasn't user error. And we began to look at why are we not getting clean readings of this? Well, simply put, the larynx is really changing its height when we make that Gillyanne and Jeremy: Okay. Mike Ruckles: And so I think predominantly what we came away with. At first the values that we tested for came back null, and we we scratched our heads and went, oh, we didn't learn anything. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Oh, it's good result Mike Ruckles: We didn't. It is a good result. It's a very fascinating result. Right. And I thought, as a nobe to the world of voice study, I thought, well, we don't have a study, so we don't publish it. No. Studying and publishing even, here's what we did and we have yet to figure it out is part of the process. Of course. To incite and encourage more discussion on this topic and more research. But I think what we came away with in our understanding was that one of the primary things that's happening is a slight, I'm talking millimeters reduction in the height of the larynx. We're getting a bit of SOB into the quality Right. Why, and in doing so, I think we're improving a lot of the ease levels. What was across the board, very consistent. What? But I didn't share what we did in the clinic. What we did was we had them prepare a phrase of their own, and then we had them prepare that phrase from Santa Fe, from Newsies, both in a male key and a female key in a place that would end in a fairly belty part of the range. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Ruckles: So we had a control phrase and we had the phrase from Gillyanne and Jeremy: Mm-hmm. Mike Ruckles: and we had them mix up these phrases. We had it in a particularly chaotic order so that there was no reliability. And we had them sing each phrase with and without the crack sob effect on the high note. And we were monitoring for that. And what was very interesting was literally every performer who came in, and we should have taken perceptual studies as well, but we didn't think Gillyanne and Jeremy: just about to say perceptual. Yep. Mike Ruckles: Perceptual, we should have done it and we didn't do it. Maybe next time every single person went, oh, I almost can't do it without some thought of that crack stop. It almost, it feels like I'm yelling because what they were perceiving, I think in retrospect, what they were perceiving that lal height to be just a little bit overly high, a little close to the hyoid, and it felt uncomfortable for them without some sense of that. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Interesting. Mike Ruckles: So that was, that, that's something we've been looking at recently and that was my sort of first foray into voice research as such. And it all began with a simple question, which is why do we hear this this quality so Gillyanne and Jeremy: We hear it so much in musical theater. Can I just ask where is it being published or has it Mike Ruckles: the it has, and in fact I can send you the link to it immediately after this the journal of Voice. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Lovely. Very envious. By the way, I'm a great admirer of Aaron Johnson. I think he's done some really interesting research. Did Mike Ruckles: and couldn't be a better, couldn't be a better collaborator. And just so, he ended up being not just a collaborator, but an incredible mentor because he was dealing with someone who had not done a research study before. So Gillyanne and Jeremy: Did you slow the recordings down? Mike Ruckles: we did. We did. And we looked at them through a number of lenses and we found that there, just when we thought we began to see similarities, we thought, we began to see, oh, okay, we're starting to see this or that there would be enough variability to that. And I think you're just talking about the unique ineffable difference from one singer to another, even though they may seem to be making the same sound or producing the same quality. It is. It's a very intangible thing. But I do think I would love, if I had a chance to redo the study and really look through MRI at Laryngeal Height, that's what I would love to do, as well as to include a perceptual aspect to the study. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Is it not possible to send out the sound files post hoc for, you'd have to decide for evaluation according to for instance, I looked at comfort. Does the singer sound more uncomfortable or less uncomfortable? Or maybe it could be along the lines of more emotional, less emotional, Mike Ruckles: That's a great thought. Absolutely. To have a a group of. Voice teachers or voice professionals who can on a gut level respond to each sound and say, does this feel like it's improving? Does it feel like it's easier? Absolutely. What I notice in here, and it certainly, I want to reiterate for anyone listening that it is certainly something that I have heard overused. I have heard people use it as their only approach to ascending to a high Gillyanne and Jeremy: note. Yeah. Mike Ruckles: I think that's even for the uneducated listener. I think that becomes tiresome. Gillyanne and Jeremy: a mannerism Mike Ruckles: it becomes a mannerism. It becomes clockable. What I've loved exploring in the Voice Studio is that we can almost, however, use it as an initial crutch or training wheels to be then taken away. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Yep. Yeah, we to we totally get this. Yeah. So it then becomes a note approach. So you rebalance the Vocal comfort levels, for want of better word. Absolutely. Or comfort versus effort levels. Ooh, that's very exciting. Very. I'm definitely envious. Mike Ruckles: Perceptually. What I notice in the room, certainly, and I'm sure you've observed this as well, is with versus without one tends to be a wide wall of sound that gives very much the impression of very thick folds. And they might be doing it very well and with some level of sustainability. But nonetheless, it is a very wide wall of sound. Versus something about that crack sob compresses and narrows. And it feels like we take a little bit of the weight off as we drop that laryngeal height a bit while still our prime directive is still too cheer to call all the things that make up a good belt. So it balances all of the factors in a way. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Sounds like a pressure reset. Well, that's what Mike said early on. If there's a bit of an aspiration mm-hmm. Then we're releasing some of the subglottal pressure. Maybe that's a message also to the Vocal fold mass to adjust slightly. Interesting. And interesting that the EGG signal was messed up. Yeah. Mike Ruckles: It was very inconsistent and difficult to read that EGG signal. And I was con convinced that we were going to find a real thinning out of the vertical phase. But that was not really it did not come across that way. And partially because the EGG readings were changing just to the extent that it made the interpretation very difficult. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Fun. Can't wait to read it. It has been such a pleasure talking to you. Mike Ruckles: Oh, what a joy. Gillyanne and Jeremy: We could go on for hours. Mike Ruckles: Oh, we really could. Gillyanne and Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. But you probably need another coffee and you need to get ready for your working day. Yeah. So thank you so much for joining us. Mm-hmm. And we'll see you soon. Mike Ruckles: See you soon. Gillyanne and Jeremy: This Is A Voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.