A Million Downloads - Then Burnout Hit. With Dr Marisa Lee Naismith

Burnout can creep up quietly - until one day you realise you’ve got nothing left to give.

In this honest, wide-ranging conversation, Dr Gillyanne Kayes, Jeremy Fisher and guest Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (host of A Voice and Beyond) talk about burnout in the performing arts: how it happens, what it feels like, and what recovery really takes.

We explore:

The link between trauma, stress, and burnout

Boundaries and learning to say “I don’t have the capacity”

Why people-pleasing drives exhaustion

The real brain changes in burnout and how to reset

What it means to honour yourself as a creative

This episode includes insights from Stress Burnout Reset by Kerry Norton, reflections on somatic recovery, and practical tools for singers and teachers finding their way back to balance.

00:00 Intro and Phlegm Alert
02:10 When Burnout Creeps Up On You
03:23 Losing Everything and Working Harder
05:39 Adversity vs Trauma
07:53 Burnout in the Performing Arts
08:41 Self-Worth and People-Pleasing
11:11 Learning To Say No And Setting Boundaries
15:19 The 24-7 Access Problem
19:28 The Power Of Saying "I Don't Have The Capacity"
22:07 What Burnout Does To The Brain
25:25 Recovery Tools and Somatic Practices
33:45 Maria's Final Reflections - Honouring Yourself

Watch, reflect, and share your experience of burnout in the comments.


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Transcript

0:11

This is a Voice. A podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. This Is A Voice. Hello, and welcome to, This Is A Voice Season 12, episode three. The podcast where we get Vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes. And really we're gonna start with a phlegm alert. And both of both, don't make me laugh. Both of us. Gillyanne is just recovering from something. I'm just getting it now. So if you see lots of editing in this one, it's because we were coughing. He's at the tickly stage. I'm at the grungy stage, the productive, I'm sure you all relate. It's all productive stage. Who's the guest today? Gillyanne. It is my pal and colleague, Dr. Marisa Lee Naismith of A Voice and Beyond podcast. Yeah, We were just having a friend chat, actually, I was asking her about something and I said to her, I really appreciated your podcast about burnout, because it helped me to realize that we were experiencing it as well. And then suddenly we started sharing our experiences of burnout. And I said, hang on a minute let's get off messenger. Please can we record this? This stuff is gold. And Marisa very generously agreed to do that, and that's where the content of a lot of this episode comes from. I love those spontaneous moments where you go, oh, this is good. So we are going to drop in, we're gonna comment on some of the things that are in the video, and also we're going to be dropping in excerpts from a book that I'm reading at the moment called Stress Burnout Reset by Kerry Norton. And the Forward is by our own Dr. Ayan Panja. And Ayan was one of our guests last episode. And he's basically thinks the book is great and so do I. It's so packed with really good information and at the very end of the book is a four week process that you can follow to get yourself outta burnout. Let's go to the interview. We were just starting to talk about being on the edge of burnout, which something Jeremy and I experienced. I didn't realize, I've been living on the edge of burnout for ages. And you had something really special to share about that. Do you wanna talk about it? Sometimes with burnout, it's something that I believe creeps up on you. You can be on that rollercoaster, and you can be going around and around, and you don't actually know that you're on the rollercoaster. You don't know that you've set foot on it, until you, there comes a day where you feel like, I just wanna get off this thing. I've had enough. I'm tired. I'm mentally exhausted, I'm depleted. You start to find that you are arguing with people, you don't quite feel yourself, and you don't know how to describe what it is that you are going through, but you know that it something that's not right. And the problem with me is that I feel that I've spent a great deal of my life in that phase, and a lot of that comes from trauma. When you are like, I was a single parent for many years and I felt that I had to work really hard and I had to be the best mother, the best version of myself. I was on stage performing, giving to audiences, and if I didn't give everything that I had to give in every scenario, then I was letting myself down and something catastrophic would happen. There was always a fear that something would happen as a result of not giving everything that you have to give. Then when you have financial demise, something happens to you financially where perhaps you lose everything or whatever that looks like for people. And I know that for us, we did go through a stage where we lost everything some years ago. You feel that you have to work hard and that not you. Yeah, you feel like the only way you can control your life, your situation, your day to day, is by doing everything you can possibly do to keep moving forward. You feel that if you let go of the reins all of a sudden you're going to lose control and you're going to lose everything again. So you start to spiral. So accurate. I dunno if people recognize some of the things that Marisa's talking about. So accurate. A few things I want to pick up on. Burnout can creep up on you. You don't realize it's happening. Your behavior starts to change. Your view of the world starts to change, and you don't know why. I think what's key about what Marisa's had to say here, and I know there's something about this in the book. Mm-hmm. Which is, she's talked about there has been trauma in her life and how that trauma, it's like an environment that is ready to, to get you into a state of burnout. You don't know that it's there. You don't know how it's impacted on your thought processes and the way that you see life and the way that you deal with things. And I think that's a really significant element.\ I'm glad you picked that up because I just wanna talk about this. There's a difference between adversity and trauma. Adversity is what happens when life throws you a challenge. It's rejection, it's financial struggles, it's illness, it's loss, it's failure. We've all been there, we've all had it. It's stressful and it shakes things up, but usually the body finds its way back to the baseline. It's powerful and it's temporary. Trauma is different. Trauma happens when something overwhelms your ability to cope. It's really important. It's not about the event itself, it's about how your nervous system reacts to it, and that's absolutely fascinating. When the stress response gets stuck to the on position, your body keeps behaving as if the danger is still there, even if the danger isn't there anymore. You might see that as hyper arousal. The fight or flight state. Or hypo arousal the opposite. Frozen or shut down. Trauma lingers. It changes the way you see things, the way you remember, and the way your body regulates itself. So it's really interesting, the same situation that two people can go through. One will treat it as adversity and one will treat it as trauma. And that's mainly, as Marisa said, it's mainly about the history. It's about what's happened to you in the past that you bring with you to that understanding of adversity. And it's also what your body is wired for. Some people are more open to stress. And therefore their body reacts in a stronger way. So it's not just your experience, it's actually also how your body's wired. I'm a little stress bunny, so is Gillyanne. So it's fun having stress in this household. We tend to get stressed by different things. Yes. So we perhaps we have complementary responses, which is why we've survived as a working and household couple. I think it's actually really interesting. Do you think that's true? I do think it's true. Mm-hmm. And because we don't get stressed by the same things, we're able to help each other out. And then that's another thing that we're gonna talk about later, is the whole support system and how you find your way through that. Let's go back to the interview. I think what happened with Jeremy and me in terms of business, well we had some significant problems early on in our business that mm-hmm. Really felt like attacks on us, and that they were sort of both personal and business wise and professional recognition implicated all of those things. Mm-hmm. And so then you are always working with that in the back of your mind. Absolutely. Then when, when you hit a, because we hit the post pandemic slump as so many people did. Mm-hmm. And we knew we needed to make some shifts and we worked incredibly hard to make those shifts. Because we didn't get the results that we wanted, that we needed, we were both so depleted at the end, and yes. You know, yes, it was. It's incredibly challenging. And do you know what? It's not fun when you're in your sixties. Let's face it. Hey, Gillyanne, we're both only 21 here. Come on, let's not talk age, because, because burnout can happen at any stage and what. I feel that you were alluding to then when you were talking about people stating or this feeling of people saying things about your work. That I feel is another reason for burnout, is when we don't value ourselves enough that we do not think that we are good enough just as we are. And I've been through that too. Where I feel that I have to prove to ev everybody that I can do better and I'm doing everything that is thrown at me. I'm saying yes to everything because how you value yourself, if you value yourself highly enough, you don't feel that you have to be doing everything that's, that comes along your way and seize every opportunity. And the other thing too is that if you're a people pleaser mm-hmm. As many of us are, especially us in the performing arts, that's our job is to please audiences. Yeah. Yeah. And that can carry through in other aspects of our lives where we feel that we can't say no. We have to say yes to everything. We don't wanna hurt people. We want to please people, and we will do whatever it takes to please others and put other people before ourselves. That is another reason for burnout. So it can be a traumatic event that puts you in that mindset where you feel that you have to seize every every opportunity, or there's another trauma waiting around the corner. It could be that you don't value yourself and your self-worth is the driver for you continuing to work and to prove yourself, and you are actually trying to prove yourself to other people rather than just and, and part of it is trying to prove your own self worth to yourself, and then being people pleaser. Yeah. And then, 'cause I think a big part of it is learning to say no, because a hundred percent I know that, in my personal career I could look back and say, oh, yeah, there's a pattern of people saying, oh, Gillyanne, will you do this? And I think, oh, they love me, they want me. Oh yes. Isn't it great? I have been asked to do this and then it's been an absolute headache or whatever. Mm-hmm. And also in terms of work life balance, because the way we live our lives now is so different from the way we lived our lives even 20 years ago. Mm-hmm. We have a much bigger onslaught of information and decision making that we have to do. So yeah, listening back to this and hear hearing Marisa just intervene and say, hang on a minute, it's not to do with age. Thank you for that reminder, Marisa, because um, I think at any point in our lives, we're always on a journey. It's not about, there is no special arrival point. There are ways in which we can grow at any point in our lives. And I think perhaps the only thing I would say is I am getting into my Autumn years is that you don't have you need a longer time for recovery if your capacity is challenged. And Marisa talks about capacity at a later stage. And I did want to acknowledge that because I think it's important. Also starting to think about, well, what? How do we learn to say no, particularly working in our profession? I want to pick up on the boundaries thing and learning to say no. In the book, there are quite a few. I think there's an, a whole chapter on boundaries, which is really interesting, and I wanted just to give you this piece of information. In 2020, Sharon Martin identified seven different boundaries. She said, boundaries keep us safe. Boundaries differentiate me from you. Boundaries help focus on what's most important to us. Boundaries improve relationships by creating clear expectations and responsibilities. I have to say that is so clear, and it also says how important boundaries are for yourself, where you go, I don't have to, there's a lovely phrase, which is slightly weird. I don't have to burn myself in order to save other people. Which is graphic, but true. Mm-hmm. That's you though, isn't it? It is very graphic. It, yeah. It's and the seven boundaries are physical, sexual, emotional, spiritual, material financial, time, and the non-negotiables, the deal breakers. Now in the book, they're listed slightly differently, but that comes from the original research. And I wanted just to talk briefly about the spiritual. Because it doesn't mean your religion. Ooh, I didn't know we were going there. No, really interesting. I actually read this morning. It means that you, it's about your sense of purpose. It's about your sense of place. Mm-hmm. And if you have a sense of purpose and a sense of place and it aligns with you, then you are very comfortable with who you are and what you do and why you are there and how it's going to manifest. And you, it doesn't matter what your religion is. You can be atheist, you can be agnostic, you can be, uh, Roman Catholic. You can be Christian, you can be Mormon. It doesn't really matter because I think your sense of purpose and place is much bigger than that. And it's one of the things that we do roundabout month nine in the accreditation program is to help people find who they are, why they're there, what they can do, what their skills are, what their place is, and it's a very powerful exercise, a series of exercises that we do. And I think it's one of the most important things about burnout is that if you know who you are, why you are, why you are, and what you choose to do, you are less likely to be in burnout for a long time. So that spiritual just means your place in the world. Mm-hmm. And the non-negotiables, the deal breakers are, they sort of don't come in under any other category they are your bottom line. Okay. Back to the interview. So allowing yourself the time to switch off. is Super important. Mm-hmm. So if what you're doing with, you're continually, oh, I've been asked to do this, so I do that. What an opportunity. Great. They love me. Love me. Which of course happens all the time in our profession, doesn't it? It does. And then you get exhausted. But how do you switch off when people have access to you 24 7? I mean, when I was growing up, you had to ring the house phone. If someone wanted to contact you, one of your school friends, one of your friends, a family member wanted to contact you. They had to call the house phone. It wasn't, let's just send a quick text message. Let's just send an email at midnight. And that comes down to too, and I've just spoken about this recently in a podcast episode about setting boundaries. And learning. Learning that boundaries are not fences. They're not rigid and set in stone, but what they are is a way of teaching people how to treat us. They actually create healthier relationships. And the healthiest relationship that you are building in that scenario is the one with yourself where you value your time, your effort, your needs, so that you can then step out into the world and be a better human being with others, and you are teaching other people how to treat you, but I know too in the performing arts. We, we do tend to say yes and a part of that again, I mean, another reason for burnout is because it's such an unstable industry, we don't know. Mm-hmm. When, where the next job is going to come from if we are self-employed. So we feel that we have to say yes to everything. And I remember years ago when I first met my husband. I, and I was gigging exclusively. That was my bread and butter, and I was doing very well. Financially I was very, very successful. One stage, I was doing 11 gigs a week for, oh my Lord. I did that for three months. Yes, and never lost my voice. And sorry, as a CCM singer, I just wanted to throw that in, but. Quite right. I remember him saying to me, why do you say yes to everything? Yeah. And I said, because I don't know when one of those jobs is going to be canceled. Yes. I don't know what if I get sick and I can't do the job the week before. So we, because of the instability in our industry. We take everything, and I remember taking jobs that I didn't even know how to do. For example, I'll never forget the first time that I was asked to be a support act for an international artist and put together a half hour show. I'd never done that. Then the next job was going and singing in a piano bar for four hours. I didn't know, I'd never done that. Then the next one may have been go on tour with a rock band. I've never done that, but I said yes to everything. Mm-hmm. And then went and figured it out. And I did face the greatest burnout I did face during my performance career was as a result of touring with a rock band. And a lot of that came from the expectation of managers. And the management that I was working for. Yeah. Being driven where I had no control, but now I have learned to say no and, mm-hmm. I just said no. At my university, they asked me to mark an Honours student. I don't have the capacity for that right now, and I just said, I'm sorry I can't do this. I don't have the capacity. I do not have the time. I'm already overload and I'm not doing it. Thank you for the opportunity. I love this word, capacity. I love this word capacity. Marisa I think it's a really important word because it makes it clear that it's not you being unwilling. No it's not you being incapable, as in I'm not, I'm not the right standard or I'm not ready to do it. Or you'd better get someone else than be better than me. It's saying I do not have the capacity. Yes. And my, my theater of mind body is full. We can't let anybody else in. It's, yeah. Yes, it is full. And we get to a point, we have to look at our lives like a cup. Like a cup of water. Mm-hmm. If you don't empty out that cup and you keep filling it up, it's going to keep overflowing. And that is burnout in. We have to learn to let go of some of the stuff. Let's empty that, that cup out, that capacity cup out before we put more on top. Or we do end up in trouble and it's not fun. It can take a long time to get over something like that. It's not just the physical burnout, but it's the mental burnout. Altogether now, I do not have the capacity for that right now. Love that sentence. Also, by the way, I loved something that you said. Mm-hmm. Which was um, my theater of mind body is full, I can't let anyone else in. That's such a fantastic visual. I, oh, it's so different. It's very different from Marisa's, which is the cup. Yeah. And this is you've got people on the door. All the seats are taken. There's a queue outside, you can't let them in. Yeah, absolutely. Love that. Yeah, I was so pleased that you both were talking about boundaries.'cause obviously it's really important. And I think it's about, she's made the point that the most important boundaries are with yourself. Yep. And having that self-compassion that allows you to recognize that you don't have the capacity. But I mean, what a gorgeous phrase. Thank you so much for that. Marisa, my pal and colleague. Oh, no. She also said that it's not just physical, it's mental. And I do wanna bring some fairly dense information in from the book. And this is the, it's the first time that I've seen this described as clearly as it is. Now, this is quite dense and it's quite, there's quite a lot of it, but bear with me 'cause this is about how burnout actually affects the brain. So here goes, I'm quoting from the book. Research has found that extended exposure to elevated cortisol levels or the stress hormone can lead to structural changes in the brain. Research conducted at Sweden's Karolinska Institutet, highlights how burnout can alter brain function and structure contributing to an ongoing self perpetuating vicious cycle of stress. It was found that individuals experiencing burnout struggle to regulate their negative emotions with reduced connectivity in brain regions associated with emotional processing, specifically the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex. The amygdala, a part of the brain involved in processing emotions like fear and stress exhibited heightened responses in burnout sufferers while weaker connections to the anterior cingulate cortex, an area responsible for managing emotional responses makes emotional regulation more challenging. So your brain has literally changed and isn't reacting in the way that it used to. I think that's very interesting. I was listening to a podcast recently. It was one of Dr. Chatterjee's and the expert on the brain there was talking about the human brain's negativity bias and that we need to learn how to manage that. And I don't know if this quote talks further about executive function. It does. That's also another area that gets impacted. Tell us. Further research found that chronic stress associated with burnout corresponds to structural changes in the brain. Individuals affected by burnout, showed thinning in the prefrontal cortex, the area linked to planning, decision making, and social behavior. At the same time, regions associated with stress, like the amygdala had increased in size. This thinning of the prefrontal cortex, which can accelerate effects often linked to aging, adversely impacts memory, attention, and emotional processing. So your executive decision-making suffers, your emotional processing dis uh, suffers and basically you are then triggered by things that you wouldn't normally be triggered by. You're going to be more responsive and reactive to stresses. Yes. So I wanted to say that. Oh, and the other thing is our brains are wired for survival, not fun. How annoying is that? Absolutely. So we have to have fun and play in our lives. Oh, and I wanted to say this as well, because our brains are wired for survival and not fun, it's important to know that all of these symptoms are you are not at fault. Mm-hmm. There's not a problem with you. You are not broken. You are actually working really well. The whole system is working well, saying, I'm sorry, there's too much stress here. You are nevertheless in control of it. And this is a big thing to say because you can change your responses and we're gonna go into how the sort of processes that you can use to change your responses in a moment. But for the moment, back to the interview. There are times where you're in that work mode and you aren't in flow, that you find that you get to that point where you know the words aren't coming together. That you are reading something and nothing is sinking in. And you, most of us have been programmed to push through that, those moments. And what I've learned is that is the time to get up, go for a walk or have a stretch. Go make yourself a cup of tea or a coffee, just mm-hmm. Get away from that project. Yeah. And then come back to it. And then you find you're so much better, you're so much more efficient, and you are talking about space, allowing yourself space. The word grace came to mind. I feel that. Yeah. We need to give ourselves space, but also we need to allow ourselves the grace. I love to do that. Yeah. Look I stopped my podcast last year. Mm-hmm. I put it on pause, we hit a million downloads and, you know, it was going great guns. We were top in so many cities and we were. At that point where we're in the top 5% of podcasts globally, and I just went, I can't, I cannot. I'm not finding the joy in this at the moment. I'm so burnt out that it's stressing me out and it's meant to be something that I love. It's, it's my loved, it's my child. It's my baby here. It's my passion. It was your passion project. And all of a sudden it became something else on my to-do list. And that's the moment that I went, this is not the time this is not working out for me right now. And I made the decision when it was at its peak to pull the pin on it. And I wasn't scared. A lot of people would've been scared. And would've thought, wow, what if we never get back to that again? What if we have this break and the audiences don't come back? And I was okay with it because I had learned that my health, my mental, my physical, my emotional health were way more than the downloads that were way more important. We are nodding along all the way through this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, can I just say that's an incredibly brave thing to do if you've already reached a million downloads? That's an incredibly brave thing to do, and also we completely understand the reason for it. Mm-hmm. Podcasting in particular is quite high energy. It's quite high commitment. And quite high responsibility. And to get that far is extraordinary. And it I love this phrasing. It became a to do thing. It got onto my chores list. And I think this is when you, that can be temporary where you go, Ooh, You have to do another podcast. It can be temporary, but once it starts to feel permanent, you really do need to rethink. What can we do if we're in this situation? The Stress Burnout Reset book has a whole section dedicated to the practical things, and there are a lot of things that we can do, which are obvious, and there are also some less obvious things. So what's called somatic practices to express the emotions trapped in your body. Could be uh, as she said, go for a walk. Go make a cup of tea. Body scan exercise where you scan down your body and you go, what's tense, what's not? Mm-hmm. Shaking. I love this one. I actually watched somebody do it a couple of days ago on, on TikTok it, they were talking about the whole shaking exercise where you just shake your body. Animals do it a lot. They shake tension out and then they go off and apparently they're fine. Oh, it's what you and I call a shiver. Yes, you do a shiver. Yes. Yes. And you can do it consciously or it can just happen. Grounding imagery, acupressure, hypnosis, breath work. And I just want to go back to the acupressure thing because Gillyanne and I discovered something that works brilliantly for me, which is squeezing. It's almost like when I'm really stressed, I don't feel like I'm in my body. Mm-hmm. And she will come and squeeze my arm or squeeze my shoulders, and that act of being squeezed allows me to get back into my body and to calm down. Mm-hmm. We learned that from a kinesiologist, didn't we? Yep. Years and years ago. Apparently it kind of gets the proprioceptors working again. If I could, you know, for those who are watching squeeze, just squeeze, just squeeze. It's really effective. Yeah. And then, you know, you'll breathe out and, yeah. Yeah. I calm down. It's so comforting. Yeah, it's lovely. Laughter, weirdly, is a, a real release of tension. And laughter yoga we're going to give a mention to. One of our accredited trainers is a laughter yoga trainer. Yeah. Charlotte. And Charlotte Woodford, Smilemymusic. Yes. Build a playlist of funny films, TV series and radio shows. Collect things that make you smile or make your eyes soften, which is something very similar. And Franka on our polyvagal course calls them glimmers. So you search around, you have glimmers around you that really make you feel better. And I know this is sounding weird, but I have done it myself, practice laughing out loud. It will feel horribly forced to begin with, but it now means I can laugh on cue. Yeah, which is great. I've done it too. Same thing on a course that I did we had to have a week where we looked in the mirror and smiled and laughed if we could Oh, I felt such an idiot. Yeah. But you know what, when, over the last few months when we have been recovering from burnout and I've been feeling really bloody, for want of a better word, I've done it and I've thought, oh, okay. Right. I can get on with my day. It's a lovely reset. Yeah. Creative hobbies that are not your profession. So I'm sorry, but you can't sing around the house and make that count if that's your profession. It's very interesting. My life coach keeps saying to me, well, don't you play the piano for fun? And I'm going, no, it's my job. Creative hobbies like, anything that you can lose yourself in drawing, painting, woodwork, writing, photography, cooking, pottery, gardening. Big vote for gardening. Yeah, as soon as I go out in the garden and pull up some weeds, I feel completely different. For me reading a book if I, if it's something that I can get lost in, then it's, real life disappears and I'm on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise. Yeah. And I'm just living a completely different life. And it's like a complete reset. It's fascinating. Journaling. Now I have to be careful with this one because often I often use stream of consciousness techniques when I'm writing my blog posts. And it would be very easy for me to go back into the emotion that I'm describing and just stay there. But I know that journaling works for a lot of people, so we're gonna put that in. Yeah. And I like the point that you made to me about journaling, which is there needs to be a self-reflection process. Yeah. So that you're able to step back if you are rehashing an emotion. Yes. You can also, and this is an interesting one, you can put visual and auditory cues in your journaling. So you can add sketches, you can add collages, you can add sound files, you add playlists. There are all sorts of things that you can do, which expands your journaling and makes it richer. And I'm gonna say this, don't be surprised if it takes you a long time to recover. I think it happens with a serious illness of any kind, longer than it took you to get there. Yep. Yeah, you think you've got over it. Then you go out and throw yourself at the world, and then you find that you actually aren't recovered and you need to rest again. And so it's, it's a bit like hills and valleys. There's a recovery journey to go through and burnout is quite serious. You know, it may take you several months to find that you are back to where you were. Hmm. So we're gonna let Marisa have the last word. You have to learn how to relive your life again and find balance without feeling guilty, without feeling that you are letting other people down, most importantly yourself, and that the world's not going to cave in and you are not going to end up financially broke again. It is okay to honor yourself, and one of the things I do every single morning. I fill out a gratitude journal because I do try and live from a place of gratitude. And having that mindset allows you to appreciate the good in your life. And one of the things I write down as an intention every day is to honor myself. Yeah, honor myself. I may not do a great job of it every day, but I do the best I can every day to honor myself and to, and I say to myself, I am enough. I am worthy. I'm worthy effort. Always have been and always will be. Today I value myself and all that I am, and I'm willing and prepared to do whatever it takes to make that happen. And that is my commitment to myself on a daily basis. Love that. Wow. So a big thank you to you, Marisa, for all of that wisdom and personal insight that you shared with me that day. And we made the decision, it definitely got to be shared with the world. You could find Marisa A Voice and Beyond podcast on the usual platforms, and we'll put links to it in the Shownote, there is a, an entire episode devoted to burnout. I'm not sure what the date was, but do check through and I think you'll find it very enlightening. Should we say goodbye now? Should we say that our capacity is full for this moment? Yep. So if any of this has made sense to you, if it struck a chord with you, do let us know, because I think burnout is actually an epidemic at the moment. Yeah. So you know, if we can support you in any way, please let us know. If you just want to share your thoughts on that, let us know that too. We'll see you soon. Bye. Bye. This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. This Is A Voice.