When Singers Thrive. Michelle Robinson on Motivation, Teaching and Wellbeing in the Voice Studio

In this episode of This Is A Voice, Jeremy Fisher and Dr Gillyanne Kayes welcome back psychologist Michelle Robinson for a deeper conversation about the singer-teacher relationship, motivation, wellbeing, and what voice training can learn from sport psychology.

Michelle introduces Self-Determination Theory, breaking down the three psychological needs that help people flourish: autonomy, competence and relatedness. Michelle, Gillyanne and Jeremy explore how these ideas apply to singers, teachers, performance and the learning environment.

The episode also highlights:
*  why external validation never really lasts
* how teaching can support both artistry and wellbeing
* the difference between performing “correctly” and performing authentically
* what classical music training can learn from more person-centred approaches
* Michelle’s own distressing experience of music college, and how difficult teaching relationships can leave a lasting mark
* her research into singer-teacher relationships, including a new questionnaire designed to measure closeness, commitment and complementarity
* why musicians deserve the more holistic support that athletes often receive

This is an honest, thoughtful episode about voice, identity, teaching and the kind of support that helps artists thrive.

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Transcript

Jeremy and Gillyanne: This is a Voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. This is a voice. Hello and welcome to, this is A Voice, season 12, episode eight, a podcast where we get Vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes. And we are back with psychologist Michelle Robinson. We had such an amazing conversation last time and it was like, we really need to find out more about this.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Well, there's somewhere in particular I want us to start, if that's all right. 'cause I was listening to the last episode and you used the words self-determination theory, and we didn't pick up on it. I want to know more.

Michelle Robinson: Okay, so I will keep it simple. Thank you for having me back. So self-determination theory is a very established psychological theory by Deci and Ryan. And there has been huge amounts of research in sport in business and in education. And what it proposes is that people flourish when firstly three basic psychological needs are met. And they are autonomy, competence, and relatedness. And I was attracted to this um, theory because one thing that's talked about a lot in music education is about autonomy providing the student with the autonomy to go on to Keep training themselves kind of thing.

Michelle Robinson: And I felt that autonomy was not detailed enough and I think it often got mixed up with independence. So in any given context, a person will thrive if they feel like they have a sense of choice, autonomy, they feel capable, competence, and they feel connected to others relatedness. If those are supported, the research shows that leads to autonomous motivation, which is that innate motivation that you do it because you want to do it, you love it.

Michelle Robinson: You, you are motivated to do it. It doesn't mean that you don't find things hard and that you think, oh gosh, I can't be, that's good. Oh, I can't be bothered to do that today. But you know why you are doing it that it's helping you towards your goal. Rather than external validation, which relies on for example, the validation of others.

Michelle Robinson: And I don't know about you, but me as a singer, any external validation where I was told you are wonderful that, you know that was enough for about five minutes. 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yes. Because it was never enough, was It Yeah,

Jeremy and Gillyanne: No.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: There was always more. Yeah. Let me ask you something, 'cause I think this is really interesting. How does this, these three elements of this self-determination theory relate to our notions of expertise in, let's say, musical performance? Because there's a whole load of literature out there on that. Is it what takes us to that place of expertise or, just any thoughts you'd like to share? I'm curious.

Michelle Robinson: Yeah. So basically if those psychological needs are met, and that leads then to the motivation. I think I'm correct in saying that creates a backdrop on which to work on those expertise, that development of what you are trying to achieve. So this is where, and I think it's really important to say that working on the relationship, working on needs is not about dumbing anything down.

Michelle Robinson: I hate that phrase, but, making anything nice and fluffy, that is not what it's about. It's about creating an environment in which you can work with that person in the best possible way for them to achieve. I mean, you know, You've got to remember, I'm bringing, I, I'm bringing this research over from elite sport, the, these p these people, these athletes and coaches, my God, they work hard and they work tough and all the rest of it.

Michelle Robinson: But if somebody has got their needs met and their relationship is high quality, there's a trust there that then means that they know how they can push their student, and what they need to do in order to get 'em to be the best they can be.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: So I'm gonna be devil's advocate, and this is good practice for you when you have your Viva.

Michelle Robinson: Absolutely.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: We could argue that musical performance is largely not competitive.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Non competitive. Yeah.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: So, what we're looking at with these elite sports coaches is by and large we do sport for pleasure but sports are competitive.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: So are there any areas from, those aspects of coaching and these theories that don't map across or need to be changed to map across?

Michelle Robinson: Yeah I, that's the key difference, isn't it? With sport it's very easy to show what excellence is, by winning a competition, by getting a world record or whatever, it is far less easy to show what excellence is in music, mainly because a lot of it is subjective.

Michelle Robinson: you know? And I think that's possibly key because it's only, it is through somebody being truly comfortable and confident in their performance, in the way they deliver their singing that enables them, i'm making this up on the spot, but enables them to be the best they can be. I never said that a lot. Just thinking it through.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: If you think, Michelle, if you think about the idea that music is self-expression,

Michelle Robinson: Yes,

Jeremy and Gillyanne: then what they're doing is expressing themself Oh.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: To the best of their ability at that moment. Yeah. You talk about, Jeremy talks about maybe when he's working with someone on a performance, I want them to find their own best selves.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yep.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Through in the way that they deliver that performance. And you are really strong on that, aren't you? It's one of the reasons why music is so in a way, easy to do, and that's gonna sound really weird because there's always a version that will fit you.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: There's no one right version. No matter what the teachers at college say, there is no one right version.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: There are 58 right versions, and you could do any one of them. And in a way, the bigger goal I think for a, for an artist is to be an artist so that they are themselves as much as they can be. Or, or at the very least, they have a persona that is extremely polished and that they can live within for, for years.

Michelle Robinson: So if we break that down what's needed in order for them to do that? They have to be comfortable within themselves. They have to feel that they are in control of what they're doing.

Michelle Robinson: Autonomy. They have to feel that they have the ability to do it. They know what they've got to do to produ, you know, they know it on a technical level. But enough that they can leave that behind and start to communicate what it is that they feel about the song or about the story.

Michelle Robinson: And they need to feel that is going to be received well. That they're in a space that, that is gonna love, that people are going to love. And that, look as a person, not as a PhD researcher or anything like that. As a person, I believe that good performance, good musical performance is soul to soul connection.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yeah.

Michelle Robinson: I believe that if somebody, and this is where I struggle watching orchestras because what I really want, and I believe orchestras can do this, what, uh, uh, but why I love watching singers who do this. Somebody who is I know is singing from their soul and delivering everything they've got straight to mine, I just think is the most powerful thing in the world.

Michelle Robinson: And I feel like, certainly classical music, I think that's the trick they're missing. Because it's only if we feel that connection with whoever's performing as an audience member. And more than that, you've got me started now. More than that. It's, I'm hearing that person, not that voice. I'm hearing that 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yes, Yes. 

Michelle Robinson: Then I am moved and I could sit and listen to that as somebody with ADHD who struggles with sitting still, I could sit and listen to that for hours.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: I'm so interested by this, okay? Mm-hmm. Let me just break some of that down. What is so interesting is you are, okay, I'm gonna say what I think you are implying, and you can correct me on this. I think it's easier in contemporary commercial music to be that person, to be that soul who happens to have a voice. I think what can happen in classical music is that you become the vehicle for the music instead of for you.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: And there are some very rare classical singers who manage to do both. But I think one of the things that people love about classical music is the structure and the form, and not necessarily the singer.

Michelle Robinson: And that's for me personally, where it goes wrong and I'm turned off by it.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Well, we're gonna have some interesting kickback. We certainly are. Um, Yeah.

Michelle Robinson: I, because. And I feel like classical music has to move on like it always did. Like, like all music moves on. It is like, how do we reinterpret it now? And I'm not saying that we get, I'm not saying that the great things about classical music have to go as a result of that.

Michelle Robinson: I'm not saying about, we've gotta recompose all these kind of, the, the canon. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that we need to be less hung up on the music and the traditions we have and more person centered, the music needs to come second to the person. And that's what's great about kind of musical theater and, and pop is that, you know, oh, we can change the key the key, can't we?

Michelle Robinson: And sing it in a different key. And we can just change that riff there. 'cause it doesn't quite suit our voice. And, we, why can't we do that in classical music?

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yeah, absolutely. I want to say something here, which it's actually referring back to the first podcast mm-hmm. That we did this year. What did you say it was called? It's not Singer Interrupted. It's the recording that we never heard or something. Yes, The Recording Never Played. As I listened back to myself after 43 years and every time I've listened to it and I've listened to it a few times, both as a singing teacher 43 years later and as someone who was in the space, what I've heard is, I know what you wanted to say. I can hear what you wanted to say. I can hear how you wanted to express yourself. And in some ways, that's the thing that makes me saddest of all, because that was the bit that didn't get fulfilled for all sorts of reasons.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: And I think. I think we know when someone is doing that, whatever music that they're singing, we can hear it. I think we and

Michelle Robinson: Yeah,

Michelle Robinson: yeah.

Michelle Robinson: Can I tell you about and maybe this, it's important to put into context where my thoughts and feelings on this. 'cause they are very strong and it's what's driven me throughout my career and driven me to this. when I went to mu music college, tell me if I'm being indulgent.

Michelle Robinson: Okay. So having experienced a nurturing teacher before I went to music college I had an awful time when I got there, I went in on a reserve place. So we already felt like I was bottom of the pack. I had two teachers in my first year because one of them told me that I was not the voice he thought I was, I was meant to be a rich mezzo and it wasn't quite happening.

Michelle Robinson: So he handed me to a teacher who specialized in coloratura sopranos. I have quite a large voice. In my first year recital singing one of the examples was, Oh Had I Jubal's Lyre. I was told that I wasn't developing as expected and they were going to chuck me out. I was 19. It was only because my mum phoned up to the head of Vocal studies, absolutely outraged, I mean no idea about music at all, and was just like, absolutely outraged at the way I've been treated. So they let me stay.

Michelle Robinson: I was then given a teacher for two years who was appalling. She didn't understand how to teach the voice. I mimicked the sound. She models, modeled and I sounded like I'd swallowed a number of plums. And then she also spent most of the lessons telling me about her divorce. So on some level I knew it was bad, but I thought the issue was me.

Michelle Robinson: Then that teacher got the sack and I was given the wonderful Susan Roper and I experienced great teaching. She is a great teacher for of the voice, but that wasn't my experience as such. It was because she saw how damaged I was. She saw how insecure my musicianship was, and she just focused on building me up.

Michelle Robinson: The focus was to get through my final recital because I had absolutely no ambitions to be a performer after that experience. She got an accompanist involved, the wonderful John Wilson, and together the two of them, it was like they kept, were caring for a frightened bird.

Michelle Robinson: They got me singing and performing and I will never forget I was a wonderful singer, Liz Donovan.

Michelle Robinson: She was a year ahead of me and I sang in a performance class just before my recital, which I hadn't really done very much. And she came up to me and she said. You have such an incredible voice. I had no idea. And your performance was so moving. And I remember that comment because it was a moment where I just thought if I'd have had a different path, things could have been very different.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle Robinson: And I think that when I talk about relationship and I talk about understanding the needs, as you do, of the singer, it was that, I got a 2-1 for my degree unbelievably. 'Cause that's what needed to happen. That's what she got me through. Sadly I didn't sing for 10 years after that, but I will never forget, she got me through and she made me realize that I had a voice that I was worthy of having been at music college. 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yes. 

Michelle Robinson: But I've had to have a lot of therapy to, to get to that point.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yeah.

Michelle Robinson: But it, but that, that was so key and that is the power of a teacher.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yes. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. I do think it is relevant and I don't think you're being at all self-indulgent. Yeah. And it feels like, similar to me that this is why you've come on the journey that you are on and that you've taken that passion for sharing that started with the vocalization of sharing. You've taken it into uplifting what people do and facilitating other people, which I think is fantastic. I think it's also a beautiful example of your teacher recognizing the person.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: And, And seeing where you were and taking you from where you were, not what they expected you to be or what you they felt you ought to be. 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Or the voice they thought they'd taken on 'cause they thought they'd like to work with that voice, which is because that was going to be easy.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Or it's the kind of voice they liked working with.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: And oh dear, I found out you are not that kind of voice. Yeah, I mean that, you must have internalized that big time.

Michelle Robinson: Of course I did. Of course I did. And that's it. And it's that idea that I never want somebody to have to go through that, that drives me. And that also that idea about empowering the student to be able to speak of their needs and understand their needs. And, I'd love, I'd, I've done some work in education.

Michelle Robinson: I'd love to work with students generally to be able to understand their needs. Because I think it's, I think it's crucial that we do that with young people and well, all of us.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yes. Yes, I agree. Now, we could easily stop there, but I have one more thing that I'm curious about, which is, in our email exchanges you wrote to us about a measure that you've devised it, you know, as part of your PhD. It looks here like mu for music, STR dash Q,

Jeremy and Gillyanne: what is it? 

Michelle Robinson: It's the MUSTR-Q which is mu it's mu the music student and teacher relationship questionnaire.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Ah! 

Michelle Robinson: So we're we don't use an awful lot of measures in music education. Certainly not one-to-one. And. I think they come with a huge health warning. I'll say that right from the get go.

Michelle Robinson: I think questionnaires and that come with a huge health warning and they are to be used as a guide and as a starting point for further discussion.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yes. Agreed. 

Michelle Robinson: I really want to say that,

Michelle Robinson: but the thing that also we are not great at is we are not great at researching and evidence-based practice because we haven't got the mechanisms by which to train teachers, 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Unregulated profession

Michelle Robinson: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Which is why in the pandemic I came to you, you know, because um, you were offering something that, that nobody else was. But yeah, so. I think we do need to be thinking about working in a more evidence-based way. And I, what I hope as a result of my research is that there's a knock on effect and there's more research and people get used to taking part in research.

Michelle Robinson: 'cause getting participants was really very hard.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Ah, so, so, so important. This massive community of what we call the independent voice teachers, not the people who've been researched within higher education, but all those, all of us other teachers out there doing our thing. Um, Listen, if you're a singing teacher out there, you have no idea how important it is for you to take part in research.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yeah. And this isn't about judgment. And I think, ' 'cause I, I do think, sorry, I know I'm interrupting your, your train of thought, but I do think this is one of the obstacles, because we're an unregulated profession we want to keep our status, we want to keep our students. So the idea of a vehicle being used, to see what we're doing and to find out more about it is, it's blooming frightening for lots of people.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: And I get it. I really get it.

Michelle Robinson: That's it. But it's trying to reframe it for them, isn't it? That this is about supporting you. This is about, I think a mu a singing teacher has an almost impossible job. They're wearing so many hats and I understand why they're not doing research. 'cause it's just another thing to do.

Michelle Robinson: But yeah, I think it is it's trying to get that message out that we need this, we really do to for, for their own protection.

Michelle Robinson: So let me tell you about the MUSTR-Q. So, this is adapted from the CART-Q, which is the coach athlete relationship questionnaire. And this has been used um, extensively in sport.

Michelle Robinson: And I spoke in the last episode about the three plus one Cs, and we talked about closeness, commitment, and complementarity as like how to conceptualize a relationship. Now this questionnaire measures those three factors. The idea being that a relationship might be really high in commitment and complementarity, but not so high in closeness.

Michelle Robinson: So then that informs you of that and you can think, okay, that's an area that me and my student need to work on. And hopefully by the end of my PhD you'll have ideas how to do that. So. What it is 22 item questionnaire. There's a student one, there's a teacher one. 11 of the questions ask about a di the direct perspective, and 11 of the questions ask about the meta perspective.

Michelle Robinson: So to give you an example, very simply, again, not rocket science, very simply the direct perspective is, I like my teacher, I like my student on a scale of one to seven. And then the meta perspective is, my teacher likes me or my student likes me. And then what you can do, there is a way of if a teacher answers that and a student answers that, you can compare the two to understand how accurate the co orientation, which is, how accurately do the student and teacher perceive each other. So yeah. So I've validated that. It does work. And I think it, it will potentially be a really useful starting point to then open out more detailed conversations.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Wow. That's, that is very powerful. I'm very excited. When are you gonna be published? Because I know the PhD, I'm guessing you are close

Michelle Robinson: So. 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: To the finishing line? Where are we?

Michelle Robinson: So I'm, gosh, I shouldn't say I was saying it out loud makes it real. So I am hoping to be finished kind of January 27. I'm hoping that's finished. I'm hoping to have all my data collected by the summer. I have the validation paper and a position paper, which I'm hoping to get out for review and subsequent publication very soon.

Michelle Robinson: So things are starting to happen.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: It's very exciting. And you have plans post PhD already, don't you? Tell us about that.

Michelle Robinson: So what has really, so there's a slightly, there's a another personal situation that has been really impactful. I have three children who all play rugby, and my middle son has been in a professional rugby union academy since the age of 15. What's absolutely fascinating to me is since since he started, he has had access to a nutritionist, a psychologist, strength and conditioning coaches physios, performance analysts.

Michelle Robinson: Okay. Now I know that sport has more funding.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Robinson: But it also has different priorities. So, I so seeing him go through all that and seeing him being treated as a holistic athlete really got me thinking about how this really should be happening in music. And, there's quite a lot of work going on at the minute.

Michelle Robinson: Physios are really looking at injury related, injury related playing and how to do injury prevention and all the rest of it. And obviously we know there's a lot going on with Vocal health. So things are starting to happen.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yep. 

Michelle Robinson: But the thing that is, is, I really want to make an impact on is thinking about psychological skills training. I know there are so many performers that could have been if they could have dealt with the pressure.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yep.

Michelle Robinson: If they could have understood what they needed to work on mentally

Michelle Robinson: in order for them to be the performer they wanted to be. And I was one of those.

Michelle Robinson: And so, yeah, so I'm doing some pilot projects at the minute with some young musicians and looking at psychological skills training and how that might enhance their playing and their wellbeing.

Michelle Robinson: And I really hope to develop that into a business and, get that out there as, as widely as possible.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: I love that. I think that's a great outcome. Yeah, and I love that really your PhD is aligned to your early experiences as a musician and all that you went through then, and that now what you're doing is you are taking, you're taking it out and you're making it very practical, which is honestly what I think a PhD is really for.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: It shouldn't be just theoretical. I know there's value in the theoretical work, obviously, and in the experimental work, but I love that you've got this empirical approach and then it's, you're taking it into action.

Michelle Robinson: Yeah. And I also think, 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Inspiring.

Michelle Robinson: I, I don't wanna preempt what my research shows, but I also think there's something about the psychological skills training that if teachers have an understanding of that, that opens out a lot of conversations with their students to build that relationship.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: There's something very interesting that came up for me when you were talking about relatedness, and particularly in the studio. And it's like the things to allow a student to feel competent. And it was about relationality. And I'm going, how do you encourage that if it's just you and the teacher? So there's gotta be something that goes outside the lesson.

Michelle Robinson: Say that again. What

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Are you talking about feeling related to others specifically?

Michelle Robinson: So relatedness is more about a connection. It's so,

Jeremy and Gillyanne: you can have connection to things. Yes.

Michelle Robinson: yes,

Michelle Robinson: so, so rela and it's connection and valued. Am I valued? Do I, is what I'm bringing to this space wanted?

Jeremy and Gillyanne: yeah. Great. Yeah. Whereas relationality is to do with the dynamic of the relationship

Michelle Robinson: It's the re the relationship as a whole.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Got it. It's really nice. I like it. I know that what we do and what we've done with teachers is really along these lines, but I love that there's a solid framework here that we can refer to, so then people can develop the skills in a much more conscious way rather than, you know, relying on just their human skills.

Michelle Robinson: Yeah. It's this idea that it doesn't matter what your personality is, you can still develop a relationship. 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: You can still I I like that. That's really important.

Michelle Robinson: Yeah. Because as well, it's about, if you think about an introverted teacher, just thinking it out loud, it's so useful to talk these things over.

Michelle Robinson: I, but if you think about an introverted teacher, a student needs to kind of get used to that if they're coming from perhaps a more extroverted teacher. It's not that an introverted teacher is a, is wrong or, but it may be that they're just not as performative with that student.

Michelle Robinson: And as long as a student knows that it doesn't matter how that teacher shows their, shows their approval of what they're doing or whatever. But the student has to know them well enough to, to That's how it is. That's how it works. 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yeah. a as, as an introverted teacher. Mm-hmm. I can relate to that. Having had people go who are like, just getting impatient because they just wanna go back and go over the song again. And I'm just neatly unpicking things and analyzing because I'm looking for the thing that will make a difference. 

Michelle Robinson: That, that's, yeah, that's it. And it's, but it's how do you how do you op, how are you open about that with them 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: How you articulate it. 

Michelle Robinson: in a way that they then understand that it's, you are doing it for their own good. And isn't it interesting?

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Yeah. Yeah. It's just say the sentence came to me is, do you wanna fix it or do you just wanna sing? Yeah. Yeah. It has been so good talking to you. We have had an absolute ball.

Michelle Robinson: I've loved it.

Michelle Robinson: I 

Jeremy and Gillyanne: think it's watch this space, isn't it. Yeah. You have to keep us posted on progress.

Michelle Robinson: I will do. I And thank you for having me and giving me the opportunity to start putting these ideas out there.

Jeremy and Gillyanne: Oh, you're so welcome. We'll see you soon. Okay. Thank you. Bye. This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.