The Scott Townsend Show
Conversations, perspectives, and insight from some of the brightest minds, facilitated by everyone's friend, Scott Townsend
The Scott Townsend Show
#231 The Power of Influence: Decoding Effective Leadership w/Draven Hope & Ben Townsend
Leadership is about influence and aligning people to goals while serving them empathetically and helping them develop to reach their full potential.
• Leadership develops through experience, just like learning to walk—you fall down, get up, and improve as long as you're paying attention
• The ability to influence is the essence of leadership, which can be wielded ethically or unethically
• Emotional resonance is more compelling than facts alone when trying to lead and influence others
• One-on-one meetings are crucial in leadership to connect with team members and understand their needs
• Everyone has influence whether they realize it or not, making everyone effectively a leader in some capacity
• Leadership skills are largely transferable between different fields and industries
• Good leaders acknowledge their mistakes openly and create environments where innovation can flourish
• Self-reflection is valuable for leadership growth but can become counterproductive if excessive
• Finding mentors who exemplify great leadership can accelerate your development as a leader
• Assessing the ethics of an organization's leadership culture is essential when deciding where to invest your career
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Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show brought to you by Pizza man Productions. Liz, why don't you kick it off? And I've got Liz, hope, I've got Ben Townsend myself. Liz, tell us what's going on. What are we doing here?
Speaker 2:Alright, so basically I have to write this comprehensive leadership paper. It's having me interview somebody to ask a bunch of leadership questions about themselves, so then I can write the paper about it. All right, you guys ready.
Speaker 1:Yep, so Liz asked me she goes, can I? Interview you and I said yeah, and I said let's turn it into a podcast, and so so she gets her content, I get my content. Actually, you could probably share this link in your paper. Ooh, that'd be cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be really cool actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that he could, he, she could, listen or watch it also. Yeah, all right, liz, all right.
Speaker 2:You're going to be the moderator today Take it away. Okay, the first question is do you think leadership develops with experience?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna say yes, ben you can't elaborate it's gonna be a really short interview I'm gonna say yes, Does it develop with experience? Because you have several wins in life or leaderships involved, but you probably have more mistakes that you make and they're not really mistakes. You're trying things out and it's just like a kid learning how to walk. Does walking develop with experience?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, and at first you don't walk very well and then you get better and better and better. Same with leadership. Uh, you know, you start out and fall down, and start up, fall down, and the more you do it a little bit better you get, and you just keep, hopefully keep getting better and better. As long as you're paying attention to what it is you're supposed to be doing, what do you think, ben?
Speaker 3:uh, yeah, I think it. I think it does develop in time. Um, do you think leadership developed with experience? I think it does in time. I think the in my mind, you know, the question is the pace at which it develops and and the heights to which it can go.
Speaker 3:And for some people, you know, leadership is not something that they're comfortable with at all, like we all, we all can like, I think when we think of leadership, we're thinking about how, how to lead a team of people, and some people just aren't cut out for it is they're not comfortable with it, for whatever reason you know it could be. You know, maybe they're more introverted and they don't care to really leave introversion mode, even for a promotion. They don't have the self-confidence or they just don't want the messiness of dealing with people, because once you get beyond yourself you have to. Leadership is about aligning people to some sort of goal, and some people are comfortable with that sales job and doing that and some people aren't. And then some people are interested in being in leadership but they kind of hijack that role to kind of like live out their own personal agendas and kind of point back to themselves rather than developing a team that is good at executing the company's mission, if we're talking about a corporate setting, and so I think that that is kind of problematic and you can have people in leadership positions who wind up. They're effective leaders, but they're effective at maybe some tactics in that whole process that are what's the word I'm looking for they wind up not being good for really the organization or the people that they're leading.
Speaker 3:Um, so I, I think it, I think it does it develop over over time, but I think that the pace at which that happens for people is different, and to me, you know, maybe, maybe what we should do here is define terms, so uh, and, and. So I've got, I've got something in my head. But a question back to you, liz. What's got to is but I want to know what you think. How would you define leadership?
Speaker 2:You want me to go first? Yeah, to me. I think leadership is about being a servant to others, being empathetic towards you know, your colleagues and everything. I think it's not about taking advantage of authority. I think it's more about caring about the people that are working for you yep, what about you, scott?
Speaker 1:oh, I would agree, I would agree. And so, in caring for your people and, uh, showing empathy, uh, the the other piece, then, is what you mentioned earlier is aligning, then pointing them towards the goal and then, through them, your organization, your unit, your team accomplishes the goal, or at least gets closer to the goal. Yeah, so you know, the definition of leadership is taking a group, leading by example and crossing the finish line with everybody's best interest in mind. Maybe, I don't know, what do you think? What do you think? So to me.
Speaker 3:So I think those are all good things and I think it's all kind of dancing around the qualities of leadership, but to me, you know, leadership is you know in its simplest form is the ability to influence. That's what I was saying, that's what you were saying, that's what Liz was saying, and then we kind of got into the qualities of leadership, you know, and what what kind of like constitute. You know, a good leader versus a challenged leader? We don't have to be totally PC here a bad leader, bad leader.
Speaker 3:So so to me it is simply the ability to exert influence and in that process, there are different ways of doing that. There are probably ethical ways of doing that and there are probably unethical ways of doing that exerting leadership, and so this kind of gets into the quality and what kind of person do you really want to be? And and so I think, in those qualities gets to do you have a leadership style that is enduring and both accomplishes the goal of the enterprise and also respects and develops people along the way. Because, no matter, I mean, if you're, if you're in a position of leadership and you're making decisions about people who are, I'll just say, under you for lack of a better way to say that, just don't read too much into that that report to you. How about that?
Speaker 3:You know that is by far, in a company like you know, the company that you work for, or any other that is by far the biggest expense. It's not the light bill, that's not the technology spend, it's not the light bill, that's not the technology spend, it's the people spend. That is by far the biggest spend in a company. And so if you're not doing that well and you're not developing talent and if you're not treating people right, then you have all kinds of issues and problems that result.
Speaker 3:You may have a person in that company who is an unethical leader that happens to accomplish a lot, but it will be more isolated to that individual and it won't be, you know, in the end, an enduring kind of leadership that results in alignment of people who are excited to be there. They're also growing their careers and being fantastic at what they do, and if you have a team that is operating at a very high level, you're going to have a successful organization, no matter what. If you have somebody who's kingdom building, if you have a narcissist in control, they're going to accomplish their goals but they'll run over people in the process and the end result for the company is underperformance. So that's a long answer to the short question. I think it's just basically the ability to influence that is leadership. I like that answer influence, that is leadership.
Speaker 3:I like that answer.
Speaker 1:All right, you're in control, liz.
Speaker 2:All right. Are there one or two experiences you look back on as having been especially valuable in helping develop your own leadership?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:All right, go for it.
Speaker 1:Whoa, I'm not your cat tipping over.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I keep having to kick him off the table. All right, let's hear about this experience then.
Speaker 1:Okay, especially valuable in helping develop your own leadership. So there is a story I always go back to, probably told us a hundred times, a hundred times. We were in a ropes for this one company I was working for. We did a ropes course this one weekend and I was a regional manager for Salesforce. And, long story short, everybody was doing really well, except for this. One lady was doing really well, except for this one lady and she was about your age, probably, maybe a little older, but not much. Um, and uh, she, she did well and everything else, except for the high element, and she was scared to death to do the high elements. And uh, the day wore on, everybody finished, everybody you know, did the, did the ropes course, except her.
Speaker 1:she didn't do that piece, the high elements, and she was a little upset and her team, my team, they were consoling her and everything's going to be all right. She was kind of ashamed and felt all that feeling for not doing what everybody else was able to do.
Speaker 1:you know, in front of everybody else. And so I I told her, I said, if you, you know, if you want to, we can. We can approach the high element and we can. We can go as high as you want to go. We can do five feet. We can go five feet and come back right back down. Just see how it goes, because I I was hoping that if I can get her up high enough, she'll eventually see it's not so bad, you know, so we did, went up into this, started off at this tree and went up, and then she'd freeze up and so we just sit there.
Speaker 1:I wasn't trying to, I really didn't really know really what I was doing. I just knew I need to take an easy hand, have an easy reign, have a light hand on this situation and just let her discover what she can do, but with me underneath, just you just encouraging along the way. It's really going to be up to her. I'm not going to carry her up there. I'm not going to carry her across the high elements.
Speaker 1:I mean, she's going to have to do it or not. And it took a long time. We got higher and higher froze froze, higher, higher froze froze, crying Don't look down, Don't look down. Inch by inch she made it across and went all the way to the end and there was a zip line at the very end where you hooked your carabiner or whatever, uh, to the zip line and and then you zip down to the bottom and there's where everybody's waiting, you know, and she zipped down and everybody congratulated her and she was so enthusiastic and happy and she was so excited and I was just wore out um I was not excited or into.
Speaker 1:I was happy for her. You know, um, and she went on to do really well in sales. Uh, she, she overcame a lot of, uh, personal doubt, self-doubt and fear and how to accomplish, how to overcome fear through that horrendous afternoon exercise and, uh, what that taught me. That whole experience taught me that, uh, if I would have told her you know it's, I'm the boss and you're going to do this I'm not, I'm not going to be ashamed in front of everybody else having you not be, having you be the only one that doesn't do this.
Speaker 1:you know that kind of guy or really is putting her first and being empathetic and and, uh, being there. It could have gone south at any point. She could have turned around and come back down and that was going to be okay, but she didn't ultimately make it, and that just showed me that sometimes in leadership it's not real quick and it's not real easy and it's painful, can be a little emotional, can be a lot emotional.
Speaker 1:You're trying to work through other people and so what's the best way to get the best out of them? And you can't do the job for them, you just encourage, be there, empathize with them, sympathize with them, the. But the end goal was to to reach the end of the zip line. You know that's the goal and we had to go through all this, all these obstacles, to get there and finally finally did so. That was had a good outcome.
Speaker 1:I mean, even if she would have gone up 10, 20 feet and then come back down, that was, that was more than what she had accomplished up to that point. So that would have been a win and, um, it might have helped that I was below her so she couldn't go back down. I'm not going anywhere, I'm gonna stand right here. You know she had no choice, but, uh, that's how that worked out and it was, it was. I've always remembered that and it just goes to show, um, that you know, if you listen and you're quiet and you encourage and support, be supportive, all the while keeping your eye on the target and just playing to their strengths, you know and you can. Eventually you'll probably get there, or if not, actually, you know, hit the target, you'll be real close. So that's progress over perfection, progress over perfection.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's my story ben, do you have one uh?
Speaker 3:I do and I agree with scott. That's a great story. Ben, do you have one? I do, and I agree with Scott, that's a great story, by the way. And I agree with Scott that you know pain is a powerful teacher. You know, and so I think probably you know learning. If there's some element of pain in your life, you know and this applies to leadership as well it can be a powerful teacher and so, to that extent, pain is a good thing, doesn't feel good at the time, and you know, there's, I heard there's, there's actually a condition where people can't experience, they don't experience pain.
Speaker 2:I don't know why that happens?
Speaker 3:physiologically, no, but the interesting thing is, you know, they don't feel pain and so they never learn not to touch a hot stove. Or if they go over, like I would. When I was a kid, we were having a barbecue and I walked over and there was these coals, you know, sitting on the barbecue pit and they were just gray and they didn't look hot to me, yeah, but I went over and I picked one of those coals up and let me tell you, it was hot and it burned and blistered my hand. We were at Uncle Jess's house in Tahlequah and that happened. Man, I dropped that coal and they were making ice cream also, and you know, I can't remember who it was saw what happened and they jammed my hand down that ice of that bucket. But you learn that way, you know. It's a valuable lesson Don't grab hot coals, you know, or don't touch a hot stove. And but people with this condition, when they can't feel pain, um, their, their statistics on longevity is like half the normal person, because they they it's not that they, they disrespect things that are not good for them, because they don't experience pain, they just pain is the teacher. And so if they don't have that, they tend to put themselves in situations because they have to remember, they have to be conscious of not doing certain things that I haven't learned through the process of pain. So, anyway, I think pain is a powerful teacher, which leads right into my story when, when I was um, I worked for a large corporation, you know, multi-billion dollar corporation.
Speaker 3:I worked in HR in the data and analytics area and I was. I was promoted to a position where I applied for it as a director of the data and analytics team and you know I was going from lead analyst to director of this team. So now everybody was reporting to me and I was running the team. So I'd say there's some things in there I did well and I did right, and there's some other things that I did not so good and it wasn't because I didn't want to do them well, it's because, frankly, I was overwhelmed. It's very kind of high-end technical work that we did that required an array of skill sets. We were partnered up with an IT team of software engineers and this whole team software engineers and analysts and stuff. All these guys reported to me as we're building out this new reporting analytics capability at this big company.
Speaker 3:But if you look at my calendar, you would see a calendar that was full from the moment I got in to the moment I left that day.
Speaker 3:I mean full with no time between meetings. Meeting went from one to two, the next one went from two to three, the next one went from three to four. It was like that, and I was also double booked probably half the time, and so I was having to make decisions on which meetings I go to and which ones I don't, and there's no space between those meetings, as I mentioned, and so there was action items and takeaways that I barely even had time and I'm a note taker deluxe man, I take notes but there was action items and takeaways and things that I need to follow up on after meetings and stuff that there was no time between meetings, and so I was barely able to keep up with those kinds of things. So one of the things that felt, one of those meetings that I consistently put on the back burner or deprioritized with one-on-one meetings with people on my team they reported directly to me and I wasn't doing this. It was kind of an unintentional, kind of like error on my part.
Speaker 1:But when you're leading a team Keep going, I'll be right back.
Speaker 3:Okay, when you're leading a team, the people who report to you it's very important for them to feel like that they're connected in with their boss, that their boss understands them, understands where they're trying to go, and they need that face-to-face time because they need reassurance that everything's okay and they're looking for feedback, either direct, verbal or nonverbal feedback either direct, verbal or nonverbal. And there was one lady on my team who she probably had a shorter patience for my rejection of her one-on-one meetings and again I did feel like they were important, but, in truth, not as important as me going to these other meetings I had. And so I remember having a meeting with one of the vice presidents, and it was my one-on-one with my vice president, and this vice president told me well, this person on your team has talked to me and said you keep declining the one-on-one meeting and I kind of got reamed for it. And my vice president was right At the time. I'm like well, you don't understand. Look at my calendar. This is ridiculous. I cannot do all this stuff.
Speaker 3:That being the case, I think as a leader, to bring your people along and to tend to their needs as you intend, to get them aligned with the mission and accomplish great things for the company, you have to take care of your people.
Speaker 3:I was really committed to taking care of your people and I was really committed to taking care of my people. That's the thing as I look back. I really was, but I was a new, I was a newer director and and being in a state of being overwhelmed, I just kind of sacrificed that, that one-on-one time with many of the people who reported to me so that I could attend all these other meetings and stuff. And there's other ways I could have done that and I found other ways to do it later. But I'm kind of a. I follow John Maxwell five levels of leadership. If you've never read that before, it seems like you have recognition there. It was a huge influence to me. Also, jack Welch at GE in the mid eighties those are big influences to me on how leadership should work and so that really kind of forms. It resonates with me and it forms my opinion about what good leadership looks like.
Speaker 3:And my style of leadership is I was trying to convert from lead analyst, where I was mostly focused on myself and, yes, I had duties for other people on the team to provide them this, that and the other. Becoming that is my only job now really as a director to be attentive to my team's need and their growth, and basically I was neglecting that and, whether I intended to or not, that's what was happening.
Speaker 3:That's what was happening and it was a hard truth for me. It was super sobering and, man, it was painful. It was painful because you're wrestling your own, you know, reaction of self-defense, um, uh, making excuses for yourself. You got to get to that pretty quickly and I did. You know, I went through those, those kinds of things pretty quickly, um and uh, and corrected, corrected that behavior. So you know, that was a, that was a very painful lesson and he's a powerful teacher and that was a great lesson for me.
Speaker 3:And the person who complained to the VP did me a favor. Did me a favor because she honed my awareness of how important those one-on-one meetings are and kind of like having a no excuse, kind of like mentality. So it's up to me, you know I'm the leader, you know, so I have to lead this team effectively and ignoring these one-on-ones, you know, sometimes it's unavoidable and you have to reschedule and I think that's just a part of life. But when you do it consistently, something's not right. And what was not right there was the was the pace of my growth as a new leader and I should have found a way.
Speaker 3:And after that I did and so, and so we're that lady and I are great friends to this day, and so so that would be one experience I have. I have others, but I don't want to take up all the time here and we're at 1036. And so I want to make sure you get through all your questions. So that would be the one that I would point to, to say that that was one and there were several others, but that would be one would be one.
Speaker 1:Intentional one-on-ones are important, so important in all kinds of uh situations, whether you're dating, you're working, you're with friends, uh being very purposeful and actually setting aside time to listen. Um, you know, hey, you know. Uh, your boyfriend, hey, let's, I'm gonna sit here and uh tell me how your day went for the next 15 minutes, that's it. And then be quiet and let them talk or not talk. And at first it's kind of awkward.
Speaker 1:I I used to do this with Matthew. We'd set aside a meeting once a month and my son and I would say you know, this is your time and we'll talk about whatever you want to talk about Pokemon or Crash Bandicoots, whatever you know, whatever kids are into, mario Kart girls. But this is your time, this is a safe harbor, there's no judgment. You can say, literally, you can say anything in this. I'm gonna give you permission to say anything you want to say in this, next, in this setting, and it's going to be okay. But you know, outside of this we are, we have boundaries, rules, but you know. So ready, set, go. And then the first time we did that was very awkward. I didn't say anything, he didn't say anything.
Speaker 1:We're just looking at each other and I'm wanting to jump in, so bad you know oh no no, no, come on, just tell me what you're really thinking, you know, and take up all the time with me prodding him to. Anyway, it got better, it got easier. And then we went to go have man dinners we call them the man dinners where we would go to, uh, chicken, buffalo, wild wings, and just he and I, and have wild wing, have wings now, I don't want the regular wings, give me the wild ones the wild wings, please but anyway so that's.
Speaker 1:Uh, I think that that paid a lot of dividends because, uh, hey, they, they have somebody they can talk to and trust and there's no judgment. Um, doesn't mean it's that way all the time, you know. I mean but in this, yeah, the one-on-ones are really important and I don't do a very good job with those at work either.
Speaker 1:And I need to get better at it. Actually, I got graded down on this last survey that we did at work because my listening. I thought I was a better listener than what other people thought, so I need to get better at that. You always think you're better than you really are until you get someone else to say, well, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Check you on it. Yeah, all right. My next question is what made these experiences so valuable? But I feel like you guys did a good job at answering that, so I'm just going to skip it, okay, um, so the next one is have your own views of leadership changed over time?
Speaker 3:you want me to go first. By the way, I, you know, I I kind of looked over the Scott sent these questions before and so I looked over them yesterday but I didn't, um, so have your own views of leadership changed over time? Uh, in mind is, yes, 100%. I remember I remember early on, you know, way before I was leading teams, I remember people would talk about, you know, leadership is, and it was so cliche and it just kind of like bugged me, but it's, it's communication, communication, communication and and I thought that was kind of like bugged me, but it's communication, communication, communication, and I thought that was kind of a corny cliche. But you know, leadership is like I said earlier.
Speaker 3:I believe leadership is simply the ability to influence. That's what it is to me, because you go into a company and whatever company you have, and your company has a mission and your job as a leader is to fulfill that company mission. And here are the resources you have. You have this much budget for advertising or putting up displays in the indoor garden area and this minute, this much budget for the people spend in that area and all this kind of stuff, and so you have to take that spend that you're responsible for as a leader, and you have to return more value for that spin than the spin itself. So that means developing people. Of course you have your own career ambitions as well. You want to get promoted and blah, blah blah. But you have to return more value as a leader. The outputs have to exceed the inputs or you won't be in a leadership position for very long. There's other reasons you could be out of a leadership position, but that's one, and so I think you know in your ability to influence, I do believe that communication is that's how.
Speaker 3:That's how you create your ability to influence. It is about communication. It's about understanding and being able to relate the mission of the company to the job that Liz has as an indoor, patio person, garden person, and how her job relates specifically to accomplishing the big top level mission of the company she works for, and so being able to do that, whether in leadership or not, I think is very important, but for a leader, I think is paramount. And then I believe you have like a moral obligation to understand what your employees want out of their job and try to help them accomplish that. It's about the mission, but it's also about building people, because people is how you accomplish the mission, and so my views on leadership with regard to how important that communication is, is very important and along those lines.
Speaker 3:Just one other thing I'm a pretty analytic kind of guy, analytical kind of guy, and so, being that way, I think I think one of the ways that I've I've kind of changed is especially, you know, as you're relating to other people is to be less analytical and kind of fact-based in your approach and, uh, spend more time on the empathetic, the empathy side of things and dealing with people.
Speaker 3:Because I read a quote this isn't mine, but I read it and it was it was. It really struck me as yes, that's truth right there, and I can see the error of my ways. You know some of my, you know interactions as a leader, but it was a statement that said something like this emotional resonance is more compelling than fact. Emotional resonance is more important than fact. So you can be 100% right about some issue or what you're trying to accomplish with your team, but not have your team like follow because somebody else is making a different case or you haven't made the emotional case for it. You haven't made, you haven't connected with them emotionally to kind of like seal the deal on what you're doing, and so I think my my view of that has absolutely 100 percent changed over time, and I think you avoid, you ignore that that need for emotional resonance at your own peril as a leader, and so that would be my answer to this question.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, yeah, that's right, that's you know, you can have the facts. Facts don't sell. For example, you know, don't go in the water, water, don't go swimming in the water, because you might get. You know, there's a shark out there and if you just leave it at that, okay, you're gonna forget that in the next 10 minutes and then pretty soon someone throws a ball and it goes out in the water. You go out there splashing around, go get the ball and come back on the beach, you know, and now everyone's kind of splashing around in the water and totally forgot about the fact is. You know, fact is, somebody did see something earlier this morning.
Speaker 1:Or you can tell the story of Jaws and there's no way you're getting in the water today or tomorrow. You know, I mean, after Jaws came out, there was a huge. I mean nobody wanted to get in the water. You know, even in swimming pools Everybody was freaked out of the deep end because it's just so scary, huge. I mean nobody wanted to get in the water. You know, even in swimming pools everybody was freaked out at the deep end because it's just so scary. And so, yeah, telling a good story sells. The fact, the facts themselves don't sell.
Speaker 3:But yeah, and internal relationships, because let's say, let's say, in the indoor garden center, let's say that, let's say that your boss is number one. My, my biggest objective for you guys here on the team is is to so the most important thing for us is to sell barbecue pits. And let's say that that kim is number one in barbecue pit sales. And let's say that there's somebody else, um, but, but, but, kim, I don't make this personal. Person A sells barbecue pits like nobody else, but they don't spend any time developing a relationship with their boss. And then you have person B, who doesn't really enjoy selling barbecue pits.
Speaker 2:They're a vegetarian and they don't you know whatever. I'm just making this up.
Speaker 3:And they sell whatever patio furniture, whatever it is, but this person has a really good relationship with their boss. You can say that they're schmoozing or brown nosing or however you want, whatever it is, but this person has a really good relationship with their boss. You can say that they're schmoozing or brown nosing or however you want to say it, but they're spending a lot of time building a great relationship with their boss. And then the boss has to make a decision. Well, who gets the tickets to the whatever the Thunder Game in Oklahoma City this coming weekend? Who gets the tickets? And the boss awards them to the person they have a great relationship with, rather than the person who is executing the number one thing that leader has told the team to execute. So that's an example of what that to me, what that emotional resonance makes.
Speaker 1:When you get more than one person involved in an organization, you have politics yeah, but in that kind of uh isn't that kind of crappy if, if you're, if you're selling uh grills like nobody's business and yet, joe, blow over here who's yes, it's, crappy, yes, it's crappy boot liquor and they get the tickets to the thunder game. Yeah, uh, that Really really does.
Speaker 3:But I'm not saying whether that is right or wrong, I'm saying that's what it is and I'm saying that's human nature. And so, along with if you know that it's not about being a bootlicker, it's about look, if I execute my job perfectly here, but I don't spend any time developing a relationship with the people around me, then human nature is going to point out their frailty and I'm not going to get what I want and somebody else is going to get what they want because they're just a 100% bootlicker. So you can't ignore that side. Emotional residence.
Speaker 3:Again, this is human nature. And is it right? No, and as a kind of left-brainedined person, you're going to say, well, that's ridiculous, you know, I, I can't do that, I'm never going to do that. But okay, well, this is something I had to learn. You know, um, that that emotional resonance is is more powerful or more compelling than just the fact, is just human nature. And if you, if you ignore human nature, you can leave yourself kind of out of what you want and where you want to go, just by not recognizing that fact, there's nothing wrong and it's just smart to build a good relationship with your boss and the people around, and so I would say. That's one thing that I would not neglect, as I know, as I, as I execute the mission. It's not a moral issue, or you know the issue where you're sacrificing, you know your, your belief system. It's just one of recognizing human nature, and you can have it either work for you or against you. Which one do you want?
Speaker 2:Hey guys, ready for the next question?
Speaker 3:Yes. All right, wait a minute.
Speaker 1:Wait a minute, okay. I think, my views have changed over time. Don't leave me out. Oh okay, no, I, I, I, I, I. I used to want to be the leader and, uh, I always thought that was the, that was the goal and it's really shouldn't be, really, um, I I've since learned.
Speaker 1:I've seen people who want to be the leader, and those are usually the people you don't want to be under. So my view has changed there, that I wanted to be the leader. Now I don't want to be the leader, but I do want to do a good job and I want to employ good social skills and influence. And if that translates into leadership, a leadership position, it probably will. But I'm not no longer chasing the leadership position. I'm done.
Speaker 3:I also read another book, just real quick. Sorry, liz.
Speaker 3:No, you're fine that I was talking about. This was kind of like about. It's about leadership, but they said that leadership positions attract narcissists like flies to honey. It is highly attractive for somebody and Scott was just referring to this who just wants to be in a position of leadership because they're trying to pursue their own narcissistic ends. But that's not to say that everybody who is in a leadership position is a narcissist or has overbearing narcissistic tendencies, because somebody if you're a John Maxwell fan and you are 100% charged up about leading a team of people, because your goal is to Leading a team of people, because your goal is to create as many great leaders as you possibly can, you're helping people get the most out of their careers and their jobs and what you're really trying to do is create a team of people who are capable of being great leaders in other parts of the organization and, as a result, you become, as a leader, this incredible pipeline of talent where people leave your team and they go on to be the manager of the paint department, the lumber department this guy over here is the lumber sales guy whatever they become leaders and then they go out having under your tutelage and they have their own teams at that point, and then they replicate what they learned under you, and so in that way you multiply that kind of philosophy and presence throughout the company and your company over time becomes high performing.
Speaker 3:So there's that kind of leader too, and I think, for people who are charged up about that kind of leadership, I think you can't have enough of them, and so I think that that kind of person would be the kind of person who who has you know, leadership is something they want to do, um, and that's a good thing, because you can't get enough those kind of people and just so you know, ben uh liz draven.
Speaker 1:I call her draven, that's her middle name. It's a great name, so it's to me it's draven. Draven is a. You're the captain right of the volleyball team, or not?
Speaker 2:I was whenever I was playing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay now I just coach coach volleyball, okay, so yeah, she's in a. She's definitely in a leadership position as a coach. So yeah, there's all kinds of ways to apply what we're talking about as a coach? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, you can apply. Apply all of the. You can make all the mistakes, or you can make make all the wins, you know right. As a coach.
Speaker 2:It's a hard job.
Speaker 3:Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I've coached you.
Speaker 2:All right. Do you think leadership in your arena is much different from, or involves different pressures than, leadership in other areas? I think it's supposed to be area, not arena.
Speaker 3:I think, I think I think leadership skill true leadership skill is completely fungible. You can, you can take somebody with great leadership skill and they're in the home improvement business and you can take that same person and you can drop them down in a manufacturing setting. Or you can drop them down in some other industry, whatever it is, textile, whatever If they have great leadership skills, they can take that and apply that anywhere they go. The only thing that really changes is what the company's mission is. So it would be about learning that the company's mission and going over there and using your leadership skill to align people to that mission.
Speaker 3:The harder of those two things are the actual leadership skills and they're fungible. So you can take them and you can put them anywhere, as long as you don't have you're not in an organization that kind of has corrupt leadership, and if you are in an organization like that, you can't stay there. You might want to go ahead and get promoted there, but you have to have an exit plan or something like that to go and put your skills to work in an organization that doesn't have this commoditized view of the people that work there. They're just commodities or just widgets in this whole process and we're just, we're just using them. You know, if you're, if you're in that kind of organization, then you really need to plan your exit, because you can't win If you're somebody who is 100% devoted to the John Maxwell style of leadership and and ethical dealing with other people.
Speaker 3:Just a brick in the wall. Yeah, so I think it's. I think it's I Just a brick in the wall? Yeah, so I think it's. I mean I would be open to somebody says no, it's not exactly as fungible as you say. Then I would love to have that conversation with somebody and listen to the case they make.
Speaker 3:But that's my opinion on it and you see it all the time that's executive development. They'll take somebody, like at the company I work for and they were in the finance part of the organization, they advanced to a, you know, a vice president. Then they'll send that, they'll take them from the finance department and they'll move them to, like, the head of HR Well, that's completely different and then they'll move them from HR and then they'll they'll move them over to, you know, the bank and do banking services, which is different than finance, you know, and what they're doing is this is recognition that leadership skill is fungible. What they're really trying to do is get them experience running all facets of the business so that, because they have their eye on promoting this person to a much bigger role than being the vice president of a company within this conglomerate. What do you think, scott?
Speaker 1:I think that's right. Yeah, do you think I think leadership is universal Leadership? That's right. Yeah, do you think I? I think leadership is universal leadership? Uh, qualities are universal and uh, if you can, you can lead a team doing whatever. That's probably probably. You're probably going to be able to do the same thing, uh, elsewhere, as long as you know how to. Uh.
Speaker 1:I was going to say motivate people. That's's one big problem People, uh people have in businesses. They think they got to motivate the people, but I don't ever try to motivate somebody. If they're not already motivated, then they shouldn't be on your team. Uh, but you can inspire them and influence them and teach them. And if you're a good teacher, you're a good listener and you're a good learner, you understand the human dynamic. You can probably do that in a lot of different fields. Maybe not everything, but I mean pretty much. Don't underestimate the need for education in a particular field and think just because you're a proven leader doesn't mean you need to learn something about a new position you're taking on. But overall, that being said, I would agree Leadership skills are universal.
Speaker 2:I'll agree with that too. Okay, I have two questions left, so the next one is do you ever reflect after the fact about how effective your behavior was in a particular situation? Is this ever a source of new or different insights?
Speaker 1:I would say, yes, do I ever reflect? I reflect too much, way too much. As a matter of fact, uh, I would go into jordan's office and I would say you know, I said this in the meeting the other day and I'm not quite sure blah, blah, blah. Then, next week, after the meeting, I'm not sure how I came off on approaching that subject in that particular way blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:Then the third week.
Speaker 1:You know, I thought I was coming off a little too hard or I don't think I made my point and she goes, man. She finally said man, you really think a lot about what you say, and that's just let it go. You know, just say your thing. I don't know if nobody is taking it as seriously as you are, if they, if at all. They just heard you say something, and that's it. But you replay it over and over, and over and over in your mind, you, you know, and days later you're still talking about it. Basically, she was saying in a nice way just shut up.
Speaker 1:You know, just get over it don't beat yourself up, just move on my god, uh, self-reflection is good, but, um, I was taking it to the extreme and what? What I was? What I was proving to her was that I am not a confident person and uh, um, I was well it's situational because I wouldn't say about you you are not a confident person.
Speaker 3:I know you pretty good, pretty well, um, but but I do think it can be situational and and I agree with kind of like you know, everybody deals with fear and uh, and fear can be a very uh kind of controlling thing that happens. It could be very destructive force right there between your ears. You don't have to have anybody else involved in the conversation with yourself after something happened, and there's always ways we can say things better, do things better, that sort of thing. Fear is that thing that gets into your mind and it is absolutely doggedly persecuting you and you're doing it to yourself. And so I think, like an after action review for some kind of meeting that you had thinking back on how you said something was your prep right? I think those things are extremely valuable, but you have to turn them into learning and action so you can remove it from. You know, this kind of area of regret that's really built out of low self-confidence and fear, you know. And so, if you really so, I think those things are very important. You know as part of the learning process whether you did something great or did something not so great. You know it was, whether it was a good thing or a bad thing.
Speaker 3:I think there's things you can tell you, man, this thing works so well. I'm going to always start my presentation with X, y, z, you know. Or I'm always going to have a certain number of graphs in here, you know, because it was so compelling. Or, you know, when somebody said, you know it was kind of opposing my idea, I think I reacted a little too emotionally to it. If you need to go apologize to the person, then go do it, you know, and then learn. Okay, so I need to. I need to learn how to be a little more measured. Or maybe I'm too measured. You know when I'm doing stuff and I have to have more enthusiasm, you know, than my measured response. You know it can be all those different things and fine tuning is something I don't think you ever stopped doing, but I think it's really important to do those things to to evaluate your performance and take whatever action is necessary to shore it up in the way you think it needs to go and then move on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I reflect all the time, I reflect too much. Yeah, that can kind of work you into a corner right. Is this ever a source of new or different insights? Is this ever a source of new or different?
Speaker 2:I mean you know.
Speaker 1:Is this ever a source of new or different insights? Ever a source of new or different? I mean, you know behavior in a particular situation, my behavior. I've reacted negatively, I've had bad reactions to things and it didn't work out well.
Speaker 3:Good thing it's never happened to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah. Okay, you ready to move on to the last question?
Speaker 1:Yeah, just one thing, as ben was talking there a sec just a second ago. Uh, you mentioned the powerpoint presentation graphs and stuff like that. Earlier we were talking about the facts versus storytelling and unfortunately, uh, you know, there's that thing called death by powerpoint. Uh, people will throw up a graph of numbers or whatever and uh, and it's pretty, no one's ever going to remember that, like, uh, eight out of ten wildebeest never survive a lion attack. And there was the numbers you know. But you show me of on on powerpoint, you show me a video of a lion chasing down a wildebeest and just ripping the ground trying to get to that wildebeest and he climbs on top of that wildebeest and tears him off the back and sinks his teeth into the neck of the wildebeest and just making a, I mean just tearing it up. Man, you're gonna walk away. That's all you're gonna talk about all day. That might be all you talk about today about this conversation is this visualization I just threw your way shark, sharks and lions and wildebeests, and you know, uh, telling a good story yeah, it's sell the sizzle, not the steak, you know so
Speaker 1:do you want to talk about something? I had a guy, uh, I wanted his powerpoint presentation and he said it's not going to do you any good. I said why is that? And he said because my PowerPoint, my PowerPoints, just have pictures and I speak to the picture. You know it doesn't say two plus two equals four. It shows hang on a second, wait a minute. Hey, come here. Come here, hang on a second, wait a minute. Hey, come here.
Speaker 1:Courtney brought uh the kids over, um, anyway so speaking to the picture, yeah, and so when he goes through his presentation, you remember the picture of the big yellow bird and the. You know stuff like that. I'll, I'll, I'll be quiet now.
Speaker 3:Okay, can I tell a quick story? It's kind of along those lines One time. One time I had to give a presentation. We had these quarterly meetings where we would have like a thousand people, 600 to a thousand people, come to a giant conference center and my, my role, I would be one of a few few people, one of the few people who would have to speak to that entire audience. And I hate being last, I, you know, to present. I hate being last because my, you know, my, my anxiety kind of grows like during the presentation, um, and so I just really hate it. But I was sitting there and knowing that I had to speak, and I was like one of the last people that was going to speak. And, as time went on, everybody in the conference center you know they were, they were doing this, you know they were somebody was presenting you know they're doing this.
Speaker 3:you know nobody was paying attention and I'm like, well, how nervous should I be, you know, getting ready to get up here and speak in front of all these people when nobody really is paying attention at all? But is that really what I want? And so, and so I know I actually like I only have a few minutes here to make make a big impact and I want everybody to pay attention because I have some great information I need to relay to them and try to get them aligned so I'm about to tell you really great, yeah, it was too.
Speaker 3:And so, as I was on my way up to the lectern, um, I reached in my pocket and I grabbed my wallet. I had it. I'm going to pretend like this little, this is my AirPod case, my EarPod case. I'm going to pretend like it's a wallet. I just had it palmed in my hand. I went up there and I said good morning everybody, ben Townsend, here, I'm the product manager for XYZ. Hey, and before I get started and held up my wallet, I said did anybody lose their wallet? And man, all of a sudden everybody's head snapped around and they're looking and they start digging through their purses, you know, trying to find. I'm going. I'm just kidding, this is my wallet. I just want to make sure I have your attention and if you'll give me your attention for the next 10 minutes, I promise I'll be brief, concise and to the point, if you'll give me your attention for the next 10 minutes.
Speaker 1:That's good, that's good.
Speaker 3:I like that.
Speaker 1:But then you got to keep your word and keep it to 10 minutes. I heard one guy say he likes being the last person in a lineup because of what you just said and so you can do anything. They've watched all the PowerPoints. They've heard all the droning. Horrible speakers know people that can't do this very well and you get to go up there and you can do anything, man and they will love you for it, you know don't make me suffer through another right make it fun for you make it fun for them, just go crazy, you know.
Speaker 1:Just take a baseball and just knock it, you know just go run through the audience or or something. You know you can do anything and they'll love you for it, because, thank you for, you know, getting us out of here, uh, and helping us enjoy the last 10 minutes and, yeah, you still get your point across but you can, yeah, pretty much do whatever you want, yeah, and get away with it.
Speaker 3:Sorry, that may have been a little bit of a digression there. No, that was a good story.
Speaker 2:I liked it All right. The last question is is there any advice you would give people early in their careers about leadership?
Speaker 3:I'll speak last if you want me to. Yeah, I'll go first. We sold that point really well.
Speaker 1:I think I'll let you go last. It's the human condition you know. So, Draven, you're a coach, You're a sales associate at Lowe's at the indoor lawn and garden, you are an aspiring physical therapist and there's a lot to learn their anatomy and muscles and you know how it all we're engineering and how all that works.
Speaker 1:But more importantly, whether you're at lowe's or you have your own practice or you're working at a practice. You're practicing at a practice um relationships. You know it's all about the human condition. It's all about are you a good listener? Do you? Are you aware of the influence that you have, both good and bad? Influence is really important. Influence is microscopic and a lot of times you won't know the influence you have on someone. Sometimes you, you, sometimes you're blessed to have some insight as to the influence you had on someone, but for for the most part, you might not ever see that.
Speaker 1:Just know that you are, you are giving, you are, you are influencing people, and you know it's the way you dress, it's the way you carry yourself, it's the way you speak to people or not. It's the way you take care of yourself. It's the way you speak to people or not. It's the way you take care of yourself. It's the way you know self-love. You got to love yourself first. You know what I mean by that. You got to take care of yourself, and that might inspire other people who don't do such a good job at that to start trying to. And or maybe it's it's it's it's it's your attitude at work. You're always on time and you have a good at it, and I know you've been awarded stuff at lowe's because of your attitude, um, which is tremendous people see it and it rolls off onto other people.
Speaker 1:So, just you know, is there any advice? Yeah, just know that you are an influence and that swings both ways and unfortunately, somebody will see you do something wrong at the wrong time and you can't take that back. You might not even know that they saw you, you know, and that's just the way it is. So in a leadership position, speaking of leadership, ben said leadership is influence, and that's, that's right. And influence it can be very I was thinking about this the other day it can be very.
Speaker 1:I said microscopic. I said microscopic. What I mean is that it can be something that even you don't notice until after a while. You notice people either acting like you or let's say, for example, that you have a great attitude at work and you don't use bad language, okay, well, that kind of eventually, that kind of carries over to the people that you work with and all of a sudden they start dressing better and they start watching their mouth and, uh, they see, they, they, they like you and and they want to be like you and, and you know that. So you can't let that go to your head. But you just know that I'm supposed to be a good example. We're all supposed to be good examples of being a good husband, a good father, a good brother, a good friend, a good worker, and we all pretty much know what that's like and what those.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, there are some people who don't even have a father figure. There is none. So the guy who has no father figure has really no idea how to be a good father. That's unfortunate. That's not to say that you can't overcome that. You can. Don't use it as an excuse. But admittedly, it might be a little harder for him to know how to be a good father because he didn't have the influence. A good boss, a good friend Maybe somebody doesn't have any good friends. They don't have any good friends, only friends that are not really friends, people that just take advantage of them, advantage of them. So you know, that's, that's. I'll just be. Just be mindful of the of. People are watching you, watching me, watching ben, and they're going to emulate. They're going to do what we do, or not? Uh, so you know, on the one hand that's kind of cool. On the other hand, it's kind of scary, because you might be responsible for someone's bad decisions I don't know, those are just my thoughts.
Speaker 3:Take it away, sweet ben okay, like before I get started, anybody lose their wallet I lost my phone I'll try to be brief here.
Speaker 3:um, so you know, as, as I've said several times, the leadership is your ability to influence, and you influence people by your words and actions, and so your words and actions have to be consistent, and and sometimes the actions part is harder and sometimes it's easier, but I think the I think the area that people may struggle with the most is their ability to communicate, and so I think, I think, as a leader at somebody, the question was is there advice you give people early in their career? If you want to be in leadership, just make sure that your motivations are right. You know, is your motivation and your style one that's going to consume people in the process, or are you going to develop people in the process? Right, um, excuse me. So you know people who want to consume people in the process. They don't give a rip about leadership. You know they're going to go in and they're going to take what they can get, and they're going to make people's lives miserable in the process and it's the boss that everybody hates because they're so self-focused.
Speaker 3:Um, so, so I think you know leadership focused. So I think, leadership if you want to be in leadership, I would say, read a number of books on leadership and kind of understand what your own philosophy is and why. Make sure that it is consistent with your faith and your sense of fair play. You have to accomplish what the company is trying to do and you have to get people aligned to that. That's just the job of a leader, and sometimes it's a fun process and sometimes it's not so fun, but that's what you have to do as a leader.
Speaker 3:But you have to be, in my opinion, honest with the people that work for you and you have to do whatever you can to see if they get what they want you know out of their experience there. But if part of that you know as being a leader is so much of his communication, then if you're not good at communication, then develop that you know, learn into your ability as a leader. If you can't communicate, if you can't speak, well, you know, go to Toastmasters. You know, I've done Toastmasters, or maybe some other kind of organization, something else you need to shore up, but you need to invest in yourself as a leader somebody young in their leadership career. I think it's also really important to have a mentor somebody that you look up to and respect.
Speaker 3:You know that can kind of give you some guidance, um, and somebody who's who's the kind of leader that's looking to develop other people that turns their crank. You need that person in your life as a young leader and they can see the blind spots that you can't see right and they.
Speaker 3:They've been through the school of hard knocks. You know, I've been through the school of hard knocks. So if you find somebody, you know who, who will, will be willing to invest in you, somebody who is, uh, you know, operated at a high level, relatively high level in an organization been successful and has a track record of developing talent and accomplishing the company's mission and successful in those ways, then that's a person you need in your life.
Speaker 3:So you got to be great to find somebody like that. And then also I would say, you know, make it with the organization that you're in. You could always change organization. The good news is leadership skills are fungible, as I said earlier. But with whatever organization you're in, I think young aspiring leaders need to do an honest assessment of the quality of the upper leadership in their company, and there's going to be things that leaders do that you don't agree with or whatever. That doesn't necessarily mean they're bad leaders. They maybe they're bad leaders. Maybe maybe you know their their tree isn't producing good fruit, you know.
Speaker 3:So you have to make that assessment and if and if you really want to be a leader or just have any kind of success in a company where you're have a highlight on ethics and um you and treating people with dignity and respect, then if you're not an organization that engenders that, that creates the conditions for that to succeed, then you need to go find an organization that does, and it may be that you know what. What I really need to do here. I've already got time invested here in this company. I'd really like to kind of get to the next level and then, you know, work from there and work out and go to another company I've already done some work on. I have a friend that works over there and their leadership sounds amazing over there. I would develop your exit plan, because you cannot succeed as a person who has a high premium on ethical engagement and developing people. You can't succeed in an organization that does not value those things.
Speaker 2:So that's what value those things.
Speaker 3:So that's what I would say, that's the advice that I would give, just in a nutshell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, being a leader also we're talking about in your job. But as a friend, as a family member, your family member, your brother, your mom, your friends, people at church, people in your other organizations that you belong to yeah, you can be a leader. We're all leaders, probably. We're probably all leaders. I'll say another way we all have influence. Whether we exercise the right kind of influence or not, that's totally up to you. And it's a good thing that you're asking these questions, because it shows me that you're interested in it and you're taking classes in it and you're taking it seriously and you're asking all the right questions yeah, if you're the kind of person who's uh not making mistakes, um, you're either not trying hard enough or you're not recognizing the mistakes that you make so because you're going to make mistakes, so um yeah, and mine's not, um so
Speaker 3:so I would say that also, that it's okay to make mistakes, but a good leader and a person just who is good, a good learner, you know whether you're leading or you're a member on a team. If you're not making mistakes with something, then you're not trying hard enough. A member on a team if you're not making mistakes with something, then you're not trying hard enough. You're just going in and checking the box or you simply have a Pollyanna view on your life and you don't have any thing in you that can recognize fault or something that you can do better. So I would say it's either one of those two things, because none of those are perfect. So you're making mistakes, whether you realize it or not, and you can't be a sociopath and turn off your inner sense of I didn't do that right or I could have done that better.
Speaker 3:You have to have empathy for other people around you.
Speaker 1:I think people value leaders that are not so well if they make a mistake they own up to it. And so well if they make a mistake they own up to it. So many times you see people make a mistake and then they'll won't admit it or just keep moving or hope nobody notices. I sent an email to a guy and I CC'd everybody on the team when it was really just supposed to go to him and he got pissed off and you know't blame him, don't blame him. And so I I had to. I had to say, hey, I screwed up, I did, I did that, I didn't mean to do that, but nevertheless I did that. So I apologize, I own that.
Speaker 1:Uh, I screwed up, and I think people appreciate when somebody will come, come clean and just, you're just, we're all just humans, you know, and we're all just trying to make a go over here and we're going to screw up. And that's what happens is when you screw up and you don't acknowledge it or you hope no one will notice. Everybody notices. The higher up the pole you go more of your ass. They see you. So just cool it. Make mistakes and then be okay with apologizing for those mistakes and keep moving.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and as a leader, if you do that, if you're kind of self-effacing that way, you'll increase your team's threshold for innovation, making their own mistakes as they try to do better and better, and again you'll wind up with a high performing team people who aren't afraid to make mistakes.
Speaker 3:You know, make mistakes and learn. That's why you know when they, when they hire people, who, who's an executive. This guy's been over here, he's got 40 years of experience, you know, doing X, y, Z and we're we're going to move him over here. We're going to move him over here, we're so excited to have him. What they're really saying is, hey, we've hired a guy who's already made all the mistakes. That's what experience is. That's why they want those guys, because if they've made the mistake, they have made the mistakes and they were successful and therefore they have learned from those mistakes and we want that guy in our organization. That guy is going to tend to have the patience of his team's progress in that area that somebody had to have with him. You know, and, and you again, develop high performing teams, so it's good medicine.
Speaker 2:All right, well, that's all I have.
Speaker 1:That's all we want.
Speaker 2:Good job Liz.
Speaker 3:Good job, Good questions. Did you have any? Did you have anything in this, in this, uh, in this conversation, where you're like you have like a challenge for something you heard today or something that really stood out in terms of how it resonated with you?
Speaker 2:I mean, I wouldn't say that I would challenge anything, because I'm taking this as a learning experience, because I'm not an experienced leader at all. So I just like to listen into these conversations and just see what other people's point of views are and just learn from it. And honestly it's kind of like, since I'm young, like I, can you know take. It's kind of like what you learn from other people. I think it's like I don't know, like working in the paint department, everything that I learned there was from other people. So like there's habits that I do that I learned from somebody else. So that's what I kind of think about leadership as well.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks for asking. Thanks for asking the questions, wanting to include us in on your project.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's great. I'm honored to be here 1127.
Speaker 1:We're well past 11, 15, so I I hope that's okay with everybody oh I mean, that's fine, good here, all right. Well, yeah, liz is good till two, so we can keep going. If we want, let's all go make a sandwich and come back, but, uh, all right. Well for Liz Draven Hope and Ben Townsend. Sweet Ben, this is Scott Townsend. Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show. Thanks for being here. Have a great day, everything's going to be all right and we'll talk to you later.
Speaker 2:The Scott Townsend Show is a Dietz-O-Man production. For more episodes, visit the Scott Townsend Show YouTube channel, listen on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You, you, you, you, you you.
