#250 Seven Leadership Regrets And How To Avoid Them

We sit down with April Whitson, Global VP of HR for ABB and author of The Stay Challenge, to unpack seven leadership regrets and how intentional habits prevent them. From regrettable retention to culture drift, we share practical moves that raise standards, protect trust, and improve results.

• work–life integration replacing identity-through-work
• regrettable retention and the cost of keeping disengagement
• silent complicity and fear of conflict
• asking for and giving useful feedback
• missed growth through lack of stretch assignments
• intentional leadership over adding more tasks
• values as observable behaviors, not posters
• clarifying purpose and aligning with company values
• team-level culture shaped by daily leader habits
• emotional blind spots and practical EQ
• decision drift and timely hard calls
• burnout betrayal and modeling healthy limits
• culture drift and keeping hands on the wheel

Highly suggest you get her book, The Stay Challenge, and subscribe to her newsletter. Follow April on LinkedIn for updates on the Intent2Lead app launching by April 1.

Transcript

Welcome & Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Welcome to the Scott Townsend Show, brought to you by Pizoman Productions.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

All right, here we go. Hey, this is Scott Townsend. Thanks for listening, tuning in to the Scott Townsend Show. And today I'm joined by April Woodson, a personal friend of mine. She's a global VP of human resources. She works uh, let's see, she's a retention strategist speaker, uh, a great speaker, and she's an author. She has a book, The State Challenge, and a newsletter, Intent to Lead, and comes out how often does that come out?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

It is every two weeks.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Oh, okay. So, yeah, I'll uh leave the information in the show notes below if anybody is interested, and I'm sure you will be, especially if you listen to this episode. But um, so how you doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:51

I'm great. I'm great, Scott. How have you been? It's been a while since I've been on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

I know. Um, we we need to have you on like a touch point every year at least. Keep us informed of what's going on and HR, the workplace, uh, you know, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

So much change, so much change in the workplace. It's crazy. I'm approaching my 30th year in the HR space. I took a little bit of a break in and went into operations for a little bit, but most of my career in the HR space. And it is crazy to think back, you know, what times were like 30 years ago in the HR space. Um, not even just me, I mean, I've obviously matured, we'll call it that. Um, added a few gray hairs, but um, but just the the dynamics, very different.

The Big Shift: Work-Life Integration

SPEAKER_00 2:42

What's the problem what's probably one of the biggest changes in the last 30 years? Not all of them, but maybe one that stands out.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah, I would say the biggest challenge and change that I've seen is the uh the importance of work and life integration, I'll call it, and the importance of ensuring that work does not take over our lives compared to maybe what it was 30 years ago. Um, from a generational perspective. I know that I was a workaholic. A lot of people in my generation were a workaholic. We kind of defined ourselves by our job titles almost. And we defined ourselves by the company we worked for, and um yeah, and then yeah, it was our identity, right? It really was our identity, and that is something that I'm seeing shift quite a bit to where um yeah, the newer generations coming into the workplace do not necessarily have the same priority on their identity being tied to that. It's very important to them, but it's not that their identity is tied to it.

Framing The Seven Leadership Regrets

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Right. I would agree. Yeah. Um I saw on LinkedIn not too long ago, you made a post that triggered this need to hear more about it. And thanks for agreeing to be on the show and to discuss uh a topic that you've been writing about, talking about here lately, and that is uh seven regrets regrets that leadership leaders have. Um usually you'll you'll you'll hear see more writing and hear more about how to be a successful leader and what to do and what not to do. And so this kind of took a different angle at the problem, so to speak. And so I thought, oh, this this would be a great opportunity to have April come on and tell us all about this, you know, what are the regrets that leaders that you're seeing leaders have um out there?

Regrettable Retention Explained

Silent Complicity And Speaking Up

SPEAKER_02 5:04

You know, there's I mean there's a lot. Um there's seven that I've identified, of course, um, as noted in the in the um newsletter, kind of I I would say it's not the newsletter is not just for that, but this series that I'm in right now is the seven leadership regrets. Um, and and I'll tell you, it started because as you mentioned, I have a book. I wrote the book, The Stay Challenge, um, a manager's guide to um handling avoidable turnover as well as regrettable retention. And this idea of regrettable retention is something that comes up quite a bit. And that is probably the, I would say the number one regret that I see leaders have is, and they don't always call it that. It's not a term that we're used to hearing. But what I have found is that leaders really do keep people maybe longer than they should, or they're not truly leading them to get the most out of them. So then they become a bit of what I phrase as regrettable retention. And the cost of keeping maybe what we shouldn't be keeping, or keeping talent, but not inspiring them to do more or to be better is really expensive to the business. Um, it's it's sort of in the past, we've heard terms like quiet quitting, we've heard um about the this the silent notion of people who just kind of disengage. And and ultimately that is a result of leadership fails, if you will, um, if we're not setting the bar high enough, if we're not clearly articulating expectations, et cetera, um, then we end up keeping disengaged people, or we keep employees who are misaligned. They're maybe not in the right seat of the bus, right? So, and we don't pay attention enough to realize it and admit it and address it. And so this really becomes my number one, what I would say is my number one regret by leaders, because then when they realize that they've that it's time to make a change and and they really go back and think, okay, I've spent two or three or four years putting up with this. If you really think about what that cost you as a leader, it's really, really expensive. So yeah, so I feel like it is um it is really um a number one regret. Um that being said, when I was writing the book, I was really only focusing on that. And then since the book um released two years ago now, believe it or not, um, I have since continued to study a lot of these things around um what are the biggest problems that we're facing in the in the business that really truly are a reflection of leaders who need to just pay a little bit more attention and intent to lead is really the the the title of the newsletter is really because I truly believe that intentional leadership is the only way to lead. And that is the piece that I feel like we don't need to cost our employ our leaders more time. They don't have more time to give. But what we really need to do is take the time they're allowing or allotting to that leadership task. We need that task to be intentional, not reactive, um, not something that we just think we're supposed to do to check a box, but are we truly being intentional with our relationships, with our people, um, and not asking leaders to do more? They don't have more to give necessarily, but we might need to just course correct what we are spending our time on and make that time that we're spending way more intentional. And so I've been studying this for a while to the point where I came up with kind of this list of seven. I actually initially had um six, and then I came back around to another area that I figured out. So I decided when I would launch the series in the newsletter that I would go with the seven leadership regrets. Um, so the first one, of course, being regrettable retention, because I think it's powerful. Second one is silent complicity. This was um an article that I released um already. So part two came out uh some time ago. Um, but this is really a piece about leaders staying quiet too long. So what we really need is for the leaders to um speak up when they know something, whether it's behavioral things, toxicity in the workplace, um, different biases sometimes that that leaders might see, but they just really unfortunately become really complicit in their silence, which erodes the relationship with their April.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

It's so hard to have those conversations. That's why I think that's why people avoid it because it's it's a confrontation. I mean, it's not you know, not confrontational as in the you know, but it is a confrontation that you have with these people, and it's and and you know, you just want you just want everybody to go along, get along, and and you know god, it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

It's super hard, Scott. It's super hard. I say, um, when I was kind of defining out a couple of these things, the emotional driver for silent complicity for me has what I see most often is fear of conflict, which is kind of what you're saying. It's like I don't I don't really want to have that comp that conflict. I don't want to have this conversation. Um, another one is self-doubt. We do tend to see a lot of leaders who kind of doubt, am I just seeing this? Is this really not as serious as maybe I make this? Um, am I competent enough to have the conversation? Or if I'm too direct, am I gonna find myself in trouble? Like um, just those self-doubts, not sure how to do it, um, type of thing. And then there's always an element of organizational politics that come into play, also, where um, especially in some cultures, in some parts of the world where you know, really just that um thinking about things from a more authoritarian approach, and like the leader is who you know we follow. And if sometimes the leader's leader is maybe, you know, behaving in a way that creates some a toxic environment, we're not generally culturally going to challenge upward. So we do see some of that, or or just again, just organizational politics that can come into play. Uh, but it's super, super powerful, Scott, right? Like if you if I'm working for a leader who is not willing to have my back, if I if you will, is not willing to speak up when they see something that is wrong, then I have a really hard time working for that person. And unfortunately, I do see a fair amount of this, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

You know, I uh oftentimes will ask for feedback. Good feedback is great, feels good, sounds good, you know, but you don't learn too much from it. You learn more about uh constructive criticism. Dang, it is hard to get people to give you there's gotta be something I'm not doing right, you know? I mean, there's gotta be something I can work on. Oh, everything's great, everything's fine to worry about. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that. But I know that there's gotta be something, and when I leave the room, you're gonna be thinking, you know, I wish you know this one little area. So I I I I uh And I think a lot of people are like that. They want to know you know, be treated with respect, but also I do want to improve, I do want to be a better employer, employee. And so what have you got for me? You know, but if you're gonna be a jerk about it and stuff, then yeah, I don't want to do that. But if you're if you're kind and if you have my best intentions in mind, and and you want to create a good working environment, sure. I mean, who wouldn't want to know what I'm I don't want to screw it up for you or anybody else if I'm doing something wrong or not quite right. So yeah, but unfortunately, people don't say these things, and so we just keep doing things not quite right, you know? Yes, and it just makes it hard.

Why Real Feedback Is So Rare

SPEAKER_02 13:53

I have uh actually um a great segue into one of the if uh other regrets, because one of the regrets that I noted um is missed growth. And um this one is again this piece around when a leader stops investing in others, or maybe they never started, but the idea is really um this regret of holding back feedback, this regret of giving stretch assignments to people or coaching your employees, and then realizing that it's too late, that you've already lost that potential, right? Because you you waited too long and then they've already moved on, they've looked for something else, they've become completely disengaged. Um, and and and it's too late at that point. So um oftentimes what I see is just this um this busyness effect, right? Man leaders are are too busy or they think they're too busy, and then they have the regret later once that person is either checked out or has left that all it would have taken was for them to maybe give them a few stretch assignments or give them the feedback that they needed, right? Because sometimes, as you said, we want to most employees want to give their best. I've not really met someone who wakes up in the morning and goes into work and says, I'm gonna be the worst I can be today.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Yeah, how can I really screw this up?

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Exactly, exactly. Um, and so it's it's really um a missed opportunity for our leaders if they are not investing in the growth of others. Um it it it it's yeah, one of the regrets for sure um that uh that I see people leaving the company um because of.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

It's like filling your car with gas. I hate stopping at the gas station, you know, and I'll usually find myself running it down to you know, and then I finally have to go get the gas, you know, or I'm gonna run out of gas. But after I get the gas, I'm always glad I did because now I can just go and not have to worry about stuff. And it's kind of like that. You you feel like you don't have the time or you really don't want to, you know what's important. I know I gotta have gas to to drive the car. Once you do it though, once you have the one-on-one or the the conversation, um it's it it's not as bad as you thought it was gonna be, probably. And it's gonna help you, and you can it's you're helping your employ employee, and then you're helping your company overall, and so it's all nice.

Missed Growth And Stretch Assignments

SPEAKER_02 16:27

It's so good, yes. I like to also consider it um similar to going to the gym. And a lot of leaders do prioritize their physical health. Uh, there's a a large number of leaders who understand the importance of being physically in good shape, um, even if it means just getting your walk-in, getting your 10,000 steps, whatever that that looks like for you. Um but you know, when you initially start that investment in your health and your well-being, you just dread it, right? Like you know your body's gonna hurt. You know that it's going to just be terrible. And then once you start getting into the rhythm, then you realize, okay, this isn't so bad. And I do have time for this, right? And so I think that's the other piece is once it becomes part of your natural rhythm, it doesn't, again, I am such a big believer in not adding more work to a leader's plate because no one has time for it, is the number one complaint that I hear is that I don't have time, I don't have time. And so it's really about taking the time that you are using for leadership tasks and just making sure they're more intentional. And investing in others is a very, very can be a very easy way to invest intentionally by just allowing people little things like delegating a meeting because you have two on the calendar at the same time, right? And giving someone the opportunity to be in a meeting on your behalf. What a great stretch opportunity for someone, right? Give empower them to just be your representative in a simple thing like that. That did not take any more of that leader's time. And so it's really um, it doesn't need to be more time, it just needs to be more intentional with the time that we are spending. So growth is a big one.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

You uh talked about uh not ref one of the points that you made uh was not uh read this here, not reflecting on your impact or uh uh leaders fail when they don't examine how their behavior affects people and outcomes. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, so again, if I think about um intentionality, I I'm a I really truly believe that in intention will lead to impact. It will impact your people and your business. And so when I when I am sharing a message around that impact, it's more just to say I am a business leader too. I I, as you, as you know, I mean, I sit at a division level in the company where I am expected to always be prioritizing to some degree our business objectives and our traditional KPIs, right? We need to hit a certain profitability margin. We still have to hit a certain revenue number, a certain orders number, we still have all these KPIs that we are expected. And as a leader, as an executive member of that management team, it is my responsibility to continue to drive those things. However, I truly, truly believe that all of those things will be impacted by how our employees are getting treated. So whether or not it's an order volume that we're looking for or a revenue target that we're trying to achieve, those things will absolutely be impacted by the intentionality of that leader on that employee, because that employee's satisfaction, their employee experience, how they are feeling every day when they start to work is going to have an impact on the outcome of their day, right? And so, as I said, no one's gonna wake up in the morning and say, I hope I do a really bad job today. However, everyone will wake up, come to work. And if a leader gives off a vibe or creates a culture that is not enjoyable to be in, then the engagement by the employee population and the culture is not gonna be healthy. And so you will have a negative impact on the business performance. So I just truly believe that if we will focus our efforts on one simple word, intentionality, we we definitely can make improvements to our impact, whether it's impacting the life of that employee or the impact on the business results and/or a combination of both.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Because there's such a ripple effect. When you show up and you're ugly to somebody, then that person turns a little sour, and then they bump into somebody and they're not, you know, just having they're giving off some bad vibes. It's this butterfly effect, you know, where it can just you just walk into a building, you're totally irritated, and by noon, everybody's totally irritated, you know. No one even knows why or how it started.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

It's really yeah, it sounds like it's really important to really look at yourself in the mirror and say, okay, here we go. Shake it off, you know. Because I do have a big impact here, and I don't underestimate that. And I don't want people to be I want people on their A game.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

That's right. That's right. And it's not it's not as hard as we make it out to be. It's it's just it's just being intentional.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Failing to clearly communicate purpose and values. Is that a failure to communicate values? What are values? Values are what we say we believe in, is that right? Um purpose. Communicate purpose and values. How do we how do we communicate values?

Purpose, Values, And Visible Behavior

Team-Level Culture And Leader Impact

SPEAKER_02 22:52

I mean, the values are usually posted in a break room somewhere or yes, you know, yes, however, however, I will say that my view of values is absolutely the opposite, right? Like I don't really care what might be posted in a break room. Um I believe that values can maybe the word isn't always the same, but one should be able to sense the values of a company based on the behaviors that they're able to observe. And so um, if I think about our one of our values um maybe is care. And so that is behavior. You should be able to feel that and see that in action through different um avenues, right? Whether it's um you know checking in on your peers, your colleagues, as a manager, am I am I doing the the appropriate things to ensure I care about my people and they can feel that, right? So yes, it's a word. Yes, it is gonna be on a break room or in a back background of a team's, you know, a team's background. Um, but but it the real the real truth is in what you can observe when you're around the people inside of the company or inside of a team, right? And so um, and again, I I think um for us again, courage is another one. You know, I don't really care if courage, the word itself, is displayed in a break room. What I care about are do my leaders and my employees demonstrate courage through their actions? Can I see that in the behaviors? And so I think this is where for me, when leaders are really leading, then they have their own set of values, right? I mean, I have a certain set of values that are very, very important to me. And I want everyone who's around me to be able to pick those up without me having to walk around with a sign around my neck that says these are my values, right? And so companies need to have the same mentality. It's it's really about what do people feel when they're around employees inside of your company that are important. So when we think about that as a leader, that's what I want people to feel. Uh, one of my values is positivity. And I can tell you that people for sure, um, I know that, you know, I let I use the words assume positive intent all the time. I am a big believer in these very, these three simple words, assume positive intent. And people know me that way. People know that I am going to approach something, an issue, a topic, whatever it is, a discussion, an employee, a leader, whatever, with positive intent. That is a value for me, right? That is one of my core personal values. But yeah, I think so. For me, values is that values are the behaviors that you exhibit when without really trying, if that makes sense as a leader, right? Like I want people, I want leaders to know that how you are being seen should be a reflection of your personal values. And most of the time, you really want to know that your values align with whatever your company's values are. And so that's one of the things that I truly appreciate about ABB is that the four Cs, our four uh values at ABB align so well with me personally and my values that it makes it really nice to know that I'm coming in and I'm going, I'm working in an environment that really is embracing the same sort of values. And so when I think about employees for leaders, what leaders need to understand is that every employee that comes in to their team will have a few different values. I mean, you might have some similarities, you might have some overlaps, but in general, you're going to have um different values that as a leader, I need to be able to pick up on these things. I need to be able to ask my employees, hey, what what do you value most? What are what is really important to you? How do you want to be seen? What are some of the things that I should know about you? Because you want to do your very best to find a connection where hopefully at least one or two of their values aligns with your values because this offers an opportunity to really find connection and build the the relationships that need to be built. Now that is different from purpose, right? Which you were talking about. And to me, purpose is uh for the way I look at purpose, purpose is really about um what you what you want or what you can give. Um so it's kind of like um I heard I have I've worked with a coach once who said purpose is, uh I may get this a little bit wrong, but purpose is the best of what you have to help others. So it's like, what do I, what, what about me? What is my purpose in in my space, right? In the HR world? Like, what do I have to give to make someone else better or to make an organization better or whatever? Like, if this is my what is my purpose when it comes to that? For me, it's creating positive work experiences. That's that is my purpose. I believe 100% that I was put on this earth to create positive employee experiences. Um, because I believe 100% that we have more employees than we want to realize sometimes, who the safest place they have is work, or the most calm space they have is work, or where they have the most friends is at work, or people who care about them is at work. We spend a lot of time at work. And so if we know that a large number of our people, either the safest space they have or um the friendliest place that they have to go to is work, then why shouldn't we as leaders and as an HR organization be creating the most amazing employee experience for them while they're here, right? And I I just I firmly believe that. This goes way back to my origin story, which I won't get into now, but my origin story that really showed me at 14 years old what it was like to have my first job and experience an employee experience that was positive, that gave me hope that I needed at a time in my life when things were not good other places in my life. And so I truly think that if we can do that, that's my purpose. So when I talk with other HR uh members, for example, if I'm looking to bring someone into my team, you know, I need to make sure that their purpose aligns with my purpose. If I'm going to have a good, effective leadership style with my HR organization, then I want more HR people on my team who are also aligned with a purpose that will take us all in the same direction. And so, and I think, you know, a lot of people today, you can talk about things like sustainability. Um, this is, you know, a lot of people have a true need to be a part of that, right? To to really say that I'm a part of living in a more sustainable world, that that this is super important to me. We hear a lot of younger generation, uh, new employees coming in saying this is really, really important to me. So, how does your company look at sustainability, for example, because that is a that is a purpose I have, which is to save our planet, to make sure that this earth is there for more generations, right? And I want to work for a company who has the same aligned purpose. So that's my kind of the differentiator for me uh between purpose and and values. Values are a lot more around um the behaviors that you exhibit in a day in, day out, very natural way that show us who you really are. Um, I don't really need somebody to tell me that they're val, you know, that they value um family and that's really important to them, that's one of their values, but then they're workaholics and you never see them talk about their family or engage in any conversations around family activities, right? And you're like, is family really one of your values, or does that just sound good?

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Right. It's it's uh it's probably one of those things where if you have to say it, you're not doing it.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Yes, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Save us all the the crud.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

So we've talked about uh have we talked about ignoring culture at the team level?

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Yeah, yeah, we haven't we haven't talked about that.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

How did that how did that sit with you when you read it?

SPEAKER_00 31:56

You know, culture happens here here you go. Culture happens regardless of what you do.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

It's just gonna happen. And so you need to know that. If you're really positive and you're creating a positive culture, that's great. I think some people think that, well, I'm gonna do something different, or like I d I really don't care about this culture thing. Well, you know what? You you're still creating a culture. You're just creating a culture of I don't care, you know. And so you have to I a la I think a lot of people I hadn't really thought about this until I read that. Was uh you you create you're creating culture whether you realize it or not. So you might want to pay attention and think about the intentional uh and the culture that you want you want to help uh help create.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Um that's right.

Practical Habits: Notes, Walks, Presence

SPEAKER_02 33:00

I mean there's there's no I mean it's a hundred percent agree with you that culture happens. Every organization, every team, I'm a big believer that individual teams have a cultural feel, right? I believe that each leader has the ability to influence what their team's culture is. How do they feel as a team? How do they behave as a team? What do you sense when you're a new employee coming into this team? That is a team's culture. If you are welcoming, if you are positive, if you work together to achieve your goals, um, this is a culture in which you could say we're collaborative, we care about each other, et cetera, right? If you have a leader that is very much like, you do your job, you do your job, you do, we we have our individual tasks, we will achieve our targets. Our most important thing is we're gonna talk about numbers every single day, we're gonna see how you're progressing against your numbers, then the culture will be such that your employees will come in, they will do their job every day, and they will know how they're tracking to their numbers. They may not, there may not be this sense of collaboration. If somebody's out sick for the day, how are we gonna manage that? Because we're very much structured in a way that says we each stay in our own little um space and do our own job, right? That is culture too, to your point. Like there will always be um a an environmental feel and a situation by which the teams are operating that you could define as your team's culture. So that being said, it's absolutely imperative that we have leaders who understand they have the biggest influence on the culture. 100%. If they are coming in with a my cup is half empty attitude every single day, and they're less collaborative, they don't give a feeling of care, they're not developing their team, right? These types of things, then the culture will erode. And um, I mean, the positive culture will erode if that's what they took, um, you know, took over, and a negative, a new type of culture will take place. I've seen this happen. Unfortunately, um what I've seen happen almost every single time I have been associated with like a factory or a location where you have a change in the senior most leadership. So if a general manager changes, I had a um many experiences of this in my day in aerospace, but also since being at ABB, where the a new general manager goes into a factory and um, you know, whatever the environment was like under the previous leader uh will shift based on the new leader's approach. So how that leader, a simple thing. I I remember a new leader coming in after uh a general manager in a factory that I was uh working in. He was very involved in production. Um, he would walk the production floor twice a day. He understood the challenges, he would, you know, high-five or talk very optimistically with employees in the factory, was very, very, very engaged in knowing the people, would even go out at 10 o'clock at night, talk with the night shift crew, just walk through, nothing planned, just shake hands. He would remember things like, hey, did your, you know, did did your daughter have her baby? You know, just things like that. Um, and that was the cult, the culture from his leading that way, he hired leaders who also were that way, or he would train up leaders that way because they would see him and they would kind of mimic and learn from his approach. And then that leader moved on to a different job. And the next leader coming in was someone who was not as comfortable in a manufacturing setting. The person was very intelligent, very competent leader, but not as comfortable in that setting and you know, interacting as much with what you could say is blue collar, I guess, if you really wanted to name it, but like was not as comfortable in that space. And you I watched the shift in the culture of go from one in which the employees felt very safe to bring up problems, to openly talk about something, to share their personal situations with the general manager or with any of their leaders, to really kind of shutting off and just becoming less open, less transparent, um, a little bit more focused on just the task at hand, because that was the only time they would really see leaders was when there was a review or we were talking about problems, there was a shortage, right? There was some major situation happening, and then leaders will come out and want to know the answers. This would be about the only time that they would see the senior leaders. And so the teams within that organization really started to, you know, kind of pull back, less transparent, uh, more reserved, and ultimately just not as optimistic, not as productive. I mean, I watched some major productivity declines happen over this period of time and then turnover. I mean, people much preferred to work in an in the environment where somebody demonstrated some care, you know. Um, and so yeah, I think individually a leader has way more impact on the culture than they uh probably realize when they first move into leadership. Now, some know that and they do really good at it, but I do think that this is one of the things that I I would say sometimes a leader doesn't always understand the true impact they can have because they they see um yeah, they're either promoted because they were technically competent and they were ready for the next level in the organization, and level meant taking on leadership tasks. Um, and so, but they don't realize what that means, right? Um, they don't necessarily realize that this this is all the soft stuff. This is not the technical stuff, this is the soft stuff.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Right. Reminds me of that phrase uh people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Yes, yes. I think there was one, I saw one here recently. I've seen it many times, but I saw it again recently that was like, you know, people will not remember um what you said, people not remember what you do, but they will remember how you made them feel.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02 39:57

It's also the same kind of uh message. Um, I'm not quoting that, but it's close.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

No, that's real close. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Yeah, it's uh it's so powerful though. I mean, just making someone feel like you remembered them, or I mean, doctors do this. I I always say leadership is not I mean you can do it as the same way doctors do, right? I just had a doctor's appointment today, actually. And you know, you go into the doctor's office, they aren't remembering me from a year ago when I did my wellness check, right? However, when I walked in, the the doctor knew about things that were happening in my life over the last year because she made notes in my chart, right? I mean, and and I always say to leaders, it can be as simple as just take better notes, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Just take notes in your one-on-ones, or you know, or if you come across, and this is what our the former GM that I was just referring to, this was something that he did really, really well, is that he would he would write down, he would always have a little uh note card or a little uh piece of paper in his pocket, and he would just write something down. He would have a conversation, and then when he walked away, he would write it down so that the next time writing it down for him was how he would remember. And so he would just write it down as a way to to lock it into his brain a little bit. Um, and then he would remember these things. And so it's it's really about again, intentionality. Like how are we showing up? How are we showing up with you know the people that are most important to us in our in our in our workplace?

SPEAKER_00 41:31

The doctor analogy is such a great one, and I've used that uh analogy uh of a doctor in business so many times, especially especially when you're giving them you're having, quote, the hard conversation. Okay. Um you go in and you have an appointment or you know, a meeting, and you and you go in, there's the doctor slash your your boss, and you sit down, and the boss is supposed to be kind of confrontational and you're nervous, and there's all this angst. Whereas when you go into the doctor's office and he's in his little white coat and stethoscope and he's got your folder, the doctor really doesn't get all worked up about your high blood pressure, you know? He just he's just reporting the facts. You know, and you so you go in. So how did how did the blood work come out? Well, um, you're a little high here, a little low here, and uh so here's what we need to do to fix that and bring your blood pressure down or or whatever. There's no the the doctor doesn't take it personally, you know?

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Yeah. I mean and also and also they know they know also that it's really up to you, which is also something that I say leaders need to understand that it is to deliver the message, but it's the employees' responsibility to change.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Right.

Hard Conversations: The Doctor Analogy

SPEAKER_02 43:07

So if I have high blood pressure or I have cholesterol problems, and my doctor says I'm gonna, you know, here's what I recommend, right? Your cholesterol is not good. You here's here's what I suggest you do. It's on me to either take my pills or to change my diet, right? I mean, or get better exercise, whatever. But it is on me, which is the same thing that I tell leaders like just understand it is your job to deliver the facts, it is your job to set the appropriate expectations, deliver the facts, and then it's on your employee to meet those expectations or exceed them, but you can't control that. You can give them all the information and you can create an environment that makes them want to show up every day. Yeah, that's it. The work has to be done by the employee, and if they're not going to do it, then we don't need regrettable retention. We need to make, we need to take the, you know, what seems to be uncomfortable decisions because it it unnecessary, uh excuse me, necessary changes. Um, a great book by Dr. Henry Cloud. And I recommend it to a lot of my leaders because we're so afraid sometimes to make those necessary changes in order to, whether it's in our personal lives or in our work lives. And for me, I believe if as a leader, I will always sleep at night knowing that I created the best environment I could create for that person to succeed, and I gave them clear expectations for them to know how to how how to operate. The rest is on them. And if they aren't able to do what I've asked them to do in this great environment I know that I have created, then it's not a good fit. And it's time to take that necessary, make the necessary ending at this in this case, or find a different seat for them on the bus, whatever it is. But but take a decision so that we don't end up in this regrettable retention spiral that we tend to stay in for a really long time.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Those hard questions or those hard conversations only get harder the longer you put it off. Yes. And then two years later, you're just it it's so bad, you know, and people have been damaged and uh reputations have been trashed, and and you're you know, all your KPIs, your metrics are just struggling.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Whereas two years ago, if you just would have dealt with that one person, you know. And and all the A and all or whatever it is, you know. But not to do anything, it just gets worse.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

It gets worse. And more difficult.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

And more difficult. Yeah. So have we covered all the seven? I think we have to do that.

Necessary Endings And Accountability

SPEAKER_02 45:53

Not yet. Let's see. We talked about um, well, we have emotional blind spots. So that was one of the um regrets that I wrote about recently, which a little bit around um impact, thinking about impact and intention, um, goes a little bit there, but it's it's a little also about this undervalu undervaluing emotional intelligence. So I think it's really important for leaders to understand their own blind spots because if we um when we miss how we affect others, that really does cause a lot of um um challenges in the workplace. So that's one. And then um my upcoming um ones that I haven't written about yet, so you may not have had those, would be um decision drift. Um, so this one is really about um clarity. Um, if we think about um hesitating on hard decisions, so whether that's people, we just talked about, you know, some of that with regrettable retention, but um, but it's more around the hesitation to take hard decisions, even on strategy or direction. So, what does that look like? So having this um decision drift, um, I'll call it. And then we have um burnout betrayal. So this is really around um when we lead everyone but ourselves. So this is a different type of this this article will be coming out in a couple of weeks. Um, and it will be a lot more about the realization that how we are modeling being overworked instead of balancing this out. I talked about work and life integration rather than balance, because I'm not sure if it is. Um, but it we will pay the price either in health or family or empathy or something as a leader. And so we'll talk a little bit about that in that article. And then the last one is um the culture side. So culture drift, which I would say is more around the erosion of what you've already built, right? So the regret happens when we assume that the culture will sustain itself. So we've done a bunch of work, we have this good culture, and then we just back off, we drift back um because we think that we assume that that culture is gonna um sustain itself itself, and then we we fail to keep intentionally building it and taking care of it um like it's a a a baby, right? Um, so those are the those are the seven regrets.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

That's uh it's kind of like uh on your last one, you just said there's kind of like taking your hands off the steering wheel, yeah, and thinking expecting the car just to go where you want it to go.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Keep your hands on the wheel.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

For sure. Yes.

unknown 48:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

That was great. Uh good conversation and congratulations on the book and uh your newsletter. And uh yeah, if anybody uh wants more information on April Whitson, uh I'll put it down in the show notes for you to find her there. Highly suggest you get her book, The Stay Challenge, and uh subscribe to her newsletter. You can do that on LinkedIn. Um do you have a website? I don't know. I then I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

I am in the process actually, um currently of I mean, there is a website, thesaychallenge.com, uh, but I'm also in the process of creating a new app that will um be a bit of a benefit to leaders who also want to dig a little bit deeper into the stay challenge. So you'll you'll start to see some more on that. In Q1, I will start marketing um my launch campaign and then our uh I have a team that's helping me with some of this. And the plan is that we will launch that hopefully by April 1st. So um very excited about this app. It will be the app will be called Intent to Lead as well. Um the number two, so intent number two, and then lead. And um, yeah, so I'm excited about that. Uh it'll be coming soon. So yeah, if anyone wants to follow me on LinkedIn, I'm also um I will be starting a separate um Instagram page for intent to lead as well. And so um we'll be able to connect in the new year and it's gonna be exciting.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Yeah, uh, where's your do you have any speaking engagements coming up or any kind of I don't have anything booked right now?

Emotional Blind Spots And EQ

SPEAKER_02 50:21

I am taking a little bit of um time to reflect on the personal side and work on this app. My good uh my husband and I are going to be grandparents for the first time in January. Our son and daughter-in-law are expecting our first grandbaby in January. So I am uh focusing all of my attention for the next uh many weeks on family and just being in the spaces where I can be in Austin, Texas when that little baby is born and and really enjoy her. Um it's a baby girl. So that is my priority at the moment is family and an app.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Yeah. Well, congratulations on the grandkid, uh, grand granddaughter. We have two now, three and one, I think.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Oh they're a lot of fun. Cannot wait.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Well, thanks for joining us, and we'll have you back on again sometime here soon, sooner than later. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Uh we'll talk when the app is out, maybe. Yeah, let's do that.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yeah, let's talk about the app.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Well, for April Whitson, this is Scott Townsend. Thanks for tuning in, listening to the Scott Townsend Show. Have a great day. Everything's gonna be alright. And we'll talk to you later.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

The Scott Townsend Show is a Diet Soman production. For more episodes, visit the Scott Townsend Show YouTube channel, listen on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.