Success Stories Ep 89 - "The Force Behind the Sales"

It's rock star day at the Success Stories Podcast!

Today, you will be lucky enough to hear all about Johanna Gottlieb, the powerhouse sales force, who lives in the windy city of Chicago. She has been a staple in the promotional products industry for a long time, and is a force multiplier for any organization she touches. 

On today's show, we'll learn about Joe's journey, her thoughts on education, selling and maybe even how to do things differently to stand out. So buckle up buttercup, it's time to learn how a sales legend thinks about sales!

Transcript

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Marshall Atkinson 
It's rock star day at the Success Stories Podcast. Today, you will be lucky enough to hear all about Johanna Gottlieb, the powerhouse sales force, who lives in the windy city of Chicago. She has been a staple in the promotional products industry for a long time and is a force multiplier for any organization she touches. On today's show, we'll learn about Joe's journey, her thoughts on education, selling, and maybe even how to do things differently to stand out. So buckle up, buttercup! It's time to learn how a sales legend thinks about sales. So Jo, welcome to the Success Stories podcast.

Johanna Gottlieb 
I really appreciate that intro. I could say a lot of similar things about you. I'm constantly talking about, well, the legend in print you are. So thank you very much.

Marshall Atkinson
Oh, man, I'm blushing over here.

Johanna Gottlieb 
You need to see our faces, everyone.

Marshall Atkinson
Well, thanks. And so I met you through Promo Kitchen, which is, if you don't know Promo Kitchen, you need to go to Promo Kitchen.org and look it up. It's awesome. And especially if you need help, there's lots of mentorship, education stuff, and fun. It's all about fun. If you're not having fun while you learn, what are you doing? Right? So I was happy to be part of the promo kitchen for five years. So much of Las Vegas hangs with you. So let's say good stuff, right? But that's not what we're here to talk about. We're here to talk about your career, your success, and all that. And I want to get started with, you know, just kind of your journey. Right. So you've been doing this for a long time. So walk us through how you chose the whole promo industry as a career and the evolution of your approach to selling. So just kind of give us some background here.

Johanna Gottlieb
So, like everyone else who has stumbled upon this thing, we've never met anyone who intentionally went into it. I have been in the industry for 18 years. 18 years ago, this month, I walked into a headhunters office in New York City. And she told me about this amazing little agency called Access Promotions. And she told me I was going to love the people that I work with. And as I describe this, what you're thinking about in New York City had hundreds of offices exactly as I'm describing. It's lots of papers in the dash shuffled around; she was talking a million miles a minute like I am right now. But what stood out to me was that she kept on saying, You're going to love the people you work with. And ironically, I walked in, and I met my now-husband's promotion. So she really was right; I was going to love the people I work with.

Marshall Atkinson
That's great.

Johanna Gottlieb
The minute I walked in for my first three interviews, I knew there was something special and magical there. And I still say there was something special and magical about it. I'm very grateful to have started there with Larry Cohen and Joan Blue Stone, and I really just started my career there. That was in 2006. And then we all know what happened in 2008. As I really started to get the wheels and the bells and whistles of this industry down, We started really thinking about prospecting in 2008. And the recession came. And not one person in this industry wasn't affected. But more importantly, not one person that we were selling to wasn't affected. And so at that point, when I knew that I really wanted to go down a road of prospecting, Larry and I teamed up and decided that we were going to go really hard, and really strategically during those very rough lean times, and knock on our clients doors and go to meetings because we knew when their marketing clauses opened back up, they would remember who was out there and remember us, and it worked. We took a lot of time when the phone wasn't ringing to make the phone ring, and it paid off. And that's really sort of how I started my passion and love for cold calling and prospecting. And so 2008 came and went and sort of built up a business to about a million or so. I decided in 2012 to leave New York City and open an office in Chicago. And then that's really when magic happened. I brought on a team from that team. They helped us grow from one to five million over the course of the next 10 years. And three months ago, we decided to leave all of that behind and walk away from the amazing team and amazing company to join  Genumark and even a more amazing company. And Genumark is B Corp certified and based out of Toronto with this strong canadian presence. And they simply needed someone in the US to hit the ground and really bring presence to them. And for me and minority women, sharing that B Corp story and talking about sustainability has been really a passion project for me. So I'm building my book of business from scratch, putting my money where my mouth is, and prospecting and doing the business development all over again. And every time I tell someone this, I laugh and think, What am I doing? Why did I leave all my business? But I am up for the challenge, trying to remind my young girls that you can do hard things. It's going to take a little bit of time and perseverance but...

Marshall Atkinson
Right. Well, if you're listening right now and need some stuff, she'll take your call.

Johanna Gottlieb 
Please call me.

Marshall Atkinson 
Yeah, why should it be Chicago? Why not? You know, LA, Denver, or whatever? Why Chicago?

Johanna Gottlieb
Yeah, my husband's from the suburbs of Illinois. So we were in Manhattan. He was discovering that he wanted to go back to business school. And we sort of said, If we're going to do it, let's do it now. And we got married here. And then kids, and all those things happen pretty quickly. So we decided to stay downtown Chicago and buy a house. And for me, obviously, I'm a big city girl. Chicago to New York is pretty comparable. So it seems like...

Marshall Atkinson
Right, sure. So you're building a book of business back. So a lot of people, I think, who might be listening who were just starting off, it's not back for them. It's the original; they're trying to, like, make their way. And one of the things that I tell people all the time is that this is a relationship business. And one of the things that you said a minute ago, about during that last recession in 2008, was that as you went and saw people, you were like, Hey, we're here; we're here for you. We know you're not doing anything right now. But you will, blah, blah, blah, right? This is a relationship business. And in fact, a lot of people try to skate through with it; I'm just going to do pay per click on Facebook, Instagram, or whatever. And they're just going for that little, tiny order instead of something that is going to require a little more effort. And I know that the big orders are all about relationships; nobody's going to spend lots of money with you because you posted on Facebook or Instagram. It's all about the relationship and then gendering that and actually going and meeting people and networking. And it's not the first, second, or third instance where you saw somebody, emailed them, followed up with a Zoom call, or whatever the 17th. And that's for the account. Right, that has proven true for you?

Johanna Gottlieb
Yeah, you just nailed it. I mean, anyone can call a prospect for business development. It is the consistency in showing up. It's the marshal saying no, not right now. I'm good. And me saying, I literally take that, as you can picture Jim Carrey in Dumb and Dumber when he says, So you're saying there is a chance? So for me when the marshal says no, not right now. We love our current vendor, who is really in my head; all I can say is that you're saying there's a chance? So I always think about a response being something fun, anything. And listen, I'm like, wow, I had his email, right? Marshall responded. And so I think it's just a touch point. It's a song and dance. You know, I'll call a stack a sample of something with your logo. So I'm going to dance.

Marshall Atkinson
Right. Do you use videos? I do that all the time, where I'll create a video and send it to somebody via email for them to watch. And it always gets opened. Do you do that?

Johanna Gottlieb
You know, it's interesting. You say that I'm comfortable on video. And I think it's a great medium. I haven't been using it as much. And I think I'm going to start. I don't know why I haven't dipped into that. I think it's something I need to start doing a little bit more.

Marshall Atkinson
Yeah, well, one of my tips and tricks is to take a post-it note and write, you know, three or four bullet points, whatever I want to say to the person, and I'll stick the post in it right underneath the camera lens. So during you know, you're sitting there, leaving basically it's a video voicemail, and you forget what point three is: it's right there in front of you know, and nobody knows that you're reading it because it's right under the lens and you look like, Oh, they're really smart. They remembered all of that? And that's crazy. And so it's kind of fun, right? So...

Johanna Gottlieb
Yeah, I remember in 2019, Jay Akansa I think I hope I pronounce his name right. He made comments about Pucon or Kominsky Camp Pittsburgh, so anyone listening attended that. He talked about that a lot in video messaging in 2019, and then the pandemic came right? And we were forced to use video. So it would be interesting to hear how many people are moving back to that model.

Marshall Atkinson
Yeah, well, I use a Soap box for a while and a Loom. Now I think I'm getting better results. It's easier for me on Loom because I'm already creating so many videos on that platform. A lot of YouTube stuff, right? So it's a good thing, right? And I like the fact that you can see if somebody opened it.

Johanna Gottlieb
Yeah, no.

Marshall Atkinson
Then what's even better is when they say they opened it, and you look at how many views it got. It got four views. Well, why did one email get four views? Is it because they're showing it off around the office? That's why.

Johanna Gottlieb
Definitely a great point.

Marshall Atkinson
So how has your approach to selling changed? I mean, so way back when in New York, right, you're just starting off, you're learning, and you probably made some mistakes, as opposed to what you're doing now. So comparing the two, what do you think you're doing better now than you were forever ago?

Johanna Gottlieb 
Well, I've been thinking about this a lot. I keep joking that I'm the new kid with 18 years of experience. So going into this role, I wanted to be really strategic about that. I don't want to act like I know it all. I'm trying to take what has worked in the past and shift to that, which means if consistency has worked in the past and self-promotions, what else can I add to that mix or take away? That's going to be even better? Because the world has changed in 18 years? Right?

Marshall Atkinson
Right.

Johanna Gottlieb
So I'm trying to think about that and implement it more. Your discussion right now on video is definitely one that I need to dip my toes into more. I think I'm better at laser focusing. I try not to throw a lot of my friends shit at the wall and see what sticks. I think if you can be very strategic about who you want to work with, then yes, you can be really creative and go to market and try to be consistent with the right people. I don't want to work with just anyone; I don't want to work with the biggest and best. I want to work with people who are aligned with our core values and the work that we're doing. So I think that, you know, not the desperation but more of being strategic with the right partners has been boring to me.


Marshall Atkinson
So this is all about your research and Legion, right? So you might meet somebody, look them up on LinkedIn, go to their website, find some facts about them, and look at their social media to see what they're into. You're doing all that before you're doing any outreach, right?

Johanna Gottlieb
1,000%, the world has changed in 18 years. I remember grinding in our Soho office, Googling things, and having people on Google Alerts trying to figure out as much as I could about the buyer. And now that information is literally handed to you through Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn—not only information about the marshals I'm going after—what is their company doing? Do they have any gift-back initiatives? What does the culture look like on Instagram? You go on a client's Instagram page right now, and I challenge any distributor listening to do this to their top 10 clients. You're going to see the shirts they wore for their company picnic, so perhaps you didn't win the order for the hats that they were using at their family outing. And so for me, Instagram is a feed of information about that company's culture—who's drinking the juice, who's wearing the merchandise—is it a local subtle? Is it loud and proud? It is bold. So I can go right into my conversation with Marshall about how I love that you did the inner sleeve deco on that hoodie; that's art that I really like where I love a good tone on tone. So that research is handed to you. You can learn a lot about culture information by checking out social media. And for many people listening, I think you're probably going to say something like, Well, I don't go on social; I don't use social. I check it to see when Marshall's birthday is and his work anniversary on LinkedIn. Then you're doing it wrong, and you're wasting your time. There's lots of information clients are bragging about in their press releases about the work they're doing. If you're not taking in that information, then you're doing it wrong.

Marshall Atkinson
To be more effective with your time, are you using a VA to pull all that stuff for you?

Johanna Gottlieb 
Right now, I'm wanting to be on the ground, doing grassroots bootstrapping myself. I love it. I also don't find it to be a huge time suck. Listen, we're all on our phones way too much if I'm gathering information about prospects and clients just through scrolling; that doesn't feel invaluable to me, so I'm doing that myself. I don't foresee that being something I pass on to someone; I really like doing it myself.

Marshall Atkinson 
So we met through the promo kitchen, which we talked about before, right? And again, that serves the industry about mentorship and education. So make sure you check them out. Gotta have a plug again.

Johanna Gottlieb
Yeah, definitely.

Marshall Atkinson 
And education has always been the cornerstone of my career, right? I have read a million books. My nose isn't a book every day at lunch; when I read it, I eat my sandwich or read a book. That's what I do. So consequently, I read a lot. But I also attend events. I go to trade shows and participate in things. I love going to clients and places and just asking a lot of dumb questions, right, and just seeing what happens. I take lots of notes. I think it's my responsibility to get better, right? I can't wait for somebody to handle it. For me. It's my responsibility to learn about something. I'm interested in how you learn. Can you share your tips on how you are getting stuff stuffed into your Noggin that you can use? Well, how do you do it? I usually just take printed materials and put them under my pillow, hoping for osmosis.

Marshall Atkinson
Yeah, that works.

Johanna Gottlieb
That was an old college prayer of mine that didn't work. So you know exactly what I just shared. I think podcasts and Instagram can be so much more valuable than people think. I also had this goal for such a long time of being better at tick-tock. Everyone thinks tick-tock is for people dancing and people doing crazy trends. And there's so much more to it. Your buyers are living on it. I know it's 30 to 35-year-olds who're going to look at a restaurant and want to see what the restaurant is about. They're not going to go to the website or read reviews on Yelp. They're going straight to tick tock to get a vibe and a look and feel for the restaurant. It's the same thing for merch. I think this industry has so much potential to do more on tick tock tick tock, which is great tips on parenting and selling working out. It's another platform. So I don't spend too much time a day on it. But I like learning and seeing things ticked up, as well as hopes of getting better at transition so I can do TikTok.

Marshall Atkinson
But no dancing?

Johanna Gottlieb
I'm not above a dance. But I think there's a valuable way for me to pitch.

Marshall Atkinson
Well, I'll tell you, who does a great job on Tiktok. It's Natasha Rawls, right? I don't know if you know her, but you know, she's been on this podcast, and when I discovered Tik Tok, it was like looking at what she's doing. She does a lot of, you know, the opening stuff, like, Hey, here's a box. And inside is this thing. And let me tell you why I like it above all else. And it's like a minute, and she does it from her kitchen or wherever—you know, she just happens to be standing. And it's just so genuine and authentic. One of the things that I'm a huge believer in is that the most human company wins. Right? So if we buy as humans, we buy based on emotion. Nobody buys them facts and figures; they buy them because, Oh, I really liked that, right? That's emotion. We buy with emotion. And so if you're a human and you're positioning yourself with sincerity and authenticity to another human, that usually resonates, it's warm, and it has all the feels, and I think people respond to that. And I think Tiktok is a great platform for that. I'm not really on Tiktok. That's one platform too many for me on some of the other ones. So, I totally agree with you. That's great.

Johanna Gottlieb
Yeah, I think a lot of people feel the way you do. They're just not there yet. I personally don't like Twitter. My husband only likes Twitter. So everyone has their own way to get information.

Marshall Atkinson
X.

Johanna Gottlieb
Sorry. I see. I really don't use it.

Marshall Atkinson
Yeah, because Elon Musk has to name everything X, you know, so whatever. And I think one thing we know about our customers is that they're in three spaces. Right? And I sometimes think three-dimensionally. So there's a physical location; there are blocks away, in your city, or whatever, right? There's also a digital space they're in, which could be their social media platform or their website, etc. And there's also a social aspect to it. So this is the trade association they belong to, or the union they're in, or maybe the trade show they attend, or the networking party, or the Chamber of Commerce, or whatever. So there's really three spaces where we're thinking about our customers. Sometimes people only think one-dimensionally, and all three can help you build a better sales strategy. Do you do anything with that when you're thinking about approaching clients, lead generation, or anything?

Johanna Gottlieb
Yeah, I think so. I'm used to talkinga lot about Instagram because it's probably my strongest platform. People think very differently about social issues than I do. And I think some people find it very personal, keeping it to themselves, which I completely understand. It's often photos of your family or something personal. Not everybody wants to allow the world into that space. And that's a personal choice. And I completely understand that many people in our industry, distributors and suppliers, have two accounts: a working account and a personal account. And honestly, it makes sense. I've thought about this a lot for myself because I'm active on Instagram and I have a handle called Promo Jo. It's an underscored Promo, Jo. It's a private account. And it's a lot of my kids and family and all of that. But there's also a lot of merchandise decoration, supplier partnerships, and a and a Promo Kitchen, and I decided a long time ago that I simply didn't have the time to manage two accounts, and two needed to be really authentic. So I honestly joke with clients that if you're going to follow me, you're either going to get 200 new products from the latest PPI show or my kids are having a meltdown. And there's no in between them in the best of ways that's authentic. But that's the way I do it. So I've let my clients and my prospects into my personal world when I say, Go to my page, look at my highlights of PPN Expo. And I'm sort of reaching them that way. I use Instagram a lot for that. And again, our audience is on that. So they love going to my harlots and looking at products. And that finds me literally DMing me while I'm on the show floor posting live, saying I need to know more about that hexa jacket. Tell me how you can customize it based on me right now. So my clients are those who are living in that space, and I am definitely reacting to that space. I also love speaking in public in general. So I've done Chamber of Commerce for Chicago type of events before networking, definitely in a weird COVID time. So a lot of that was virtual and in person towards the end of the pandemic, you know. As opposed to doing either, I think a lot of our clients are also just becoming a little bit more efficient. So, another good example of something like that is where I have a client that I'm trying to prospect with. I had a good relationship with her 10 years ago; she's at a new company, and she brought me into a meeting. And she said this really resonated with me: I need you to present to 15 buyers. Now, 10 years ago, what would have happened at that point? We would have started looking at flights and arranged for people from all around the country to meet in a boardroom for me to bring a suitcase of stuff to present. Well, instead, she said, I'm sending up a call for you to spotlight for 15 minutes on 15 buyers around the country. And it's going to be a Johanna spotlight, and you're going to talk to my marketing team that's all around the country. And you know, we did; we saved probably 10s of thousands of dollars in travel. I did a virtual presentation for her team and have already gotten some results. So I think we have to meet our clients where they want to speak; they want me to come to their office. Is that something that we're comfortable with that they think is a great use of travel and expense time? Or do they want me to do it virtually? So I'm kind of listening to where my clients are—are they listening to me virtually through social media or in person.

Marshall Atkinson
So as a follow-up to that, he drops it from the sample box so they can do all the touchy-feely stuff.

Johanna Gottlieb
No, I think we are constantly stuck in this 2010–2018 era of how things were done. It is a very touch-and-feel industry. We don't have to send stuff just to send stuff; we need to be really thoughtful about what we get in our clients hands. So honestly, my pitch yesterday to those 15 people wasn't even product-heavy. It was about supplier diversity and B Corp. sustainability. And that's what really got them to listen and take the call. And I follow that up with them talking about projects. I honestly wasn't going into that meeting to sell; I was talking about the genuine art capabilities and story. And then, after that, let's talk about projects. And those projects may require samples for you to touch and feel. But I'm not going to throw a lot of stuff at them and see what sticks stick. Let's be really thoughtful online. The way we approach.

Marshall Atkinson
I love it. I love it. All right. So shifting gears here. Nobody lasts long in this business if they don't have a sales engine built in for them. You're rebuilding it right, so can you share what one or two things that someone who's listening, you know, might deploy to get more success. What's the thing they have to really just start with?

Johanna Gottlieb
Okay, so anybody who wants to do prospecting or business development, I have a secret tip I'm going to share with all your listeners. So if you're listening, I want you to stop and grab your pen or pencil and your journal. Let's hopefully brand this and write it down. It's my number-one tip for success in business development. prospecting.  You ready Marshall? Already viral, everyone listens. The tip is to just do it. That's it.

Marshall Atkinson
Just do it.

Johanna Gottlieb
I joke that it's just do it, but do it, and then be consistent.

Marshall Atkinson
Not because I think a lot of salespeople get it in your head and you tell the story about how they're not going to, like you are not going to return the call, are not going to whatever, they're the wrong thing. And then we never do the work. Is that what you mean by that? You just have to get out of your own way and do it.

Johanna Gottlieb
Get out of your own way. K.I.S.S. Keep it simple, stupid. What I mean by that is don't overthink the email or the phone call; nobody wants a Mee Mee Mee Mee Mee, Mee Mee paragraph about what we do. Make it about them. Keep it really simple. And don't just do it. Follow up. Follow up again. Did you follow up? Follow up again. Because there is going to be some point where Marshall gets really pissed at his current vendor and then needs me, who has been following up, and I'll be the first person he remembers.

Marshall Atkinson
Yeah, so I learned the greatest 11-word follow-up sentence for an email ever. Do you want to know what that is? Since we're sharing?

Johanna Gottlieb
Sure. I'm going to write it down.

Marshall Atkinson
Yeah. Am I waiting on you? Or are you waiting on me?

Johanna Gottlieb
I love that. And that's it.

Marshall Atkinson 
That's all you say? Nothing else.

Johanna Gottlieb 
I like that I tend to tell people a lot. I'm ready when you are here and ready when you are. I also like to tell people often in any business type of phone call. I like to edit phone calls; what can I do for you? And it kind of throws people off guard, and I genuinely mean that. Can I help you with a mentee on your team? Or do you need help talking about Instagram? So it's such a simple phrase that it throws people off guard? What can I do to help you?

Marshall Atkinson
I say that 100 times a day. I said that to you already today.

Johanna Gottlieb 
I have a list of things you can help me with.

Marshall Atkinson
Actually, after this, I have something I want to talk to you about. All right. So let's wind it up. Right. And let's talk about the future crystal ball. Right? So things change all around us. Where do you see the market heading? What are you doing differently than maybe you were doing just a short time ago?

Johanna Gottlieb
Actually, change is all around us. And that's sort of what I'm doing and talking about when pitching to prospects. And what I mean by that is that our clients have moved around. Anyone following the promotional industry knows that a lot of big players in this industry have moved around. Your clients have marketing team has been reorganized; they have been trained in structure and CMOS; there has been hiring; there's been firing; there's been job change. So your clients are ready for change. So I've actually been leading that conversation, which has been new for me. And I'm getting a lot of head nods to that people are more receptive to a meeting and a new vendor because I think people are a little bit more open to change, especially coming off as weird post-pandemic time when, you know, we went through that stock mess. We went through so many hardships with our clients the last few years that I think there's been a lot of burnout from our clients that they are just looking and seeking new conversations with new partners. So I've been leading that conversation around change.

Marshall Atkinson 
I like that. And do you feel that people are really focused on sustainability more, because, you know, that's one of my things, right? Sustainability. And I think, five or six years ago, that really wasn't even a conversation because it always cost more—you know, 20–30% more usually. And then now I think more people are really interested in that, especially if we're looking at doing things more efficiently or effectively. For example, instead of making 1000 shirts, we can do an online store where each person can choose. And there's no leftover, for example. Right? So that's a sustainable way to sell. Do you feel that's more in your conversations?

Johanna Gottlieb
Yes. And I think it's become a buzzword like kale. So when I'm here, here's when I lead the conversation about sustainability, and before, I'll give you a clear example of something that recently happened. I was prospecting the client; my message on LinkedIn was K.I.S.S., keep it simple, stupid. And I lead with the big corporate sustainability. And she replied pretty quickly to me about the prospect, and she said, I have a current vendor. We just bought a lot with them, and we're really happy with them. However, I'm going to take a con meeting with you because you talked about sustainability and the court mission, and my current vendor doesn't do sustainable items. I literally sat back and laughed, thinking that, of course, her vendor makes sustainable items. They're not talking about it. And that's what the client wants to hear. I've gone through her website; I've seen the work; they're doing the give-back work; they're doing the volunteering. And so I honestly kind of felt bad for that incumbent distributor, thinking, Why aren't you leading with sustainability? It's all over our industry now. So I took the call with the client, and it went well. And she said, We'd like to start working with you on projects because of the B Corp story. And so that's a really good example of sustainability being very important to me.

Marshall Atkinson
I like it. I like it. All right. Well, hey, thank you so much for sharing your success stories with us today. What's the best way to contact you? If someone wants to learn more about who you are, maybe you can help them.

Johanna Gottlieb
Thank you. So if you're a stranger, we haven't met. Absolutely. The best way to contact me is through LinkedIn. I'm always on LinkedIn and very active; I will respond to you very quickly. Do not try to be Facebook or Instagram friendly. I'm always looking for messages, new partnerships, and people to meet. So LinkedIn is definitely the best way to get me, and it's Johanna Gottlieb @LinkedIn.

Marshall Atkinson 
Great, awesome. Well, thanks, Joe. I really appreciate you, and I can't wait to see how things are going to unfold this year for you. It's going to be very exciting.

Johanna Gottlieb
I also can't wait.