Autistic Strengths: A New Perspective on Inclusion with Noelle Foley- Coughlan

In our latest podcast episode, we chat toNoelle Foley Coughlan, a student who recently graduated from the MA in Autism Studies co-designed by Middletown Centre for Autism and Mary Immaculate College. Noelle focused her research on exploring the many strengths of autistic people of marginalised genders.  

To find out
more about our graduate courses visit: https://www.mic.ul.ie/faculty-of-education/programme/graduate-certificate-diploma-ma-autism-studies?index=0  

 As a Master's student dedicated to inclusivity and diversity, Noelle peels back the layers to expose the underreported strengths of autistic people from marginalized genders. Her groundbreaking research sheds light on the unique strengths of autistic women, girls, non-binary, transgender, and intersex individuals.

In this riveting conversation, we debunk the pervasive myth that autistic people lack empathy. Instead, we reveal the truth – autistic individuals are often compassionate, creative, detail-oriented, empathetic, and resilient. Noelle's invaluable findings challenge societal norms, encouraging us to bridge the gap between the autistic and non-autistic worlds. We delve into the heart of the matter, discussing the vital role of accurate representation and understanding.

The episode evolves to discuss how we can better support the autistic community. Revealing the power of self-care, embracing one's true self, and building a strong community, Noelle's advice is aimed at empowering young autistic people. We also discuss the need for organizations to recognize and capitalize on autistic strengths. As we wrap up, the focus shifts to the future – a future where autism research and education are more inclusive, representative, and focused on embracing the diverse strengths of all autistic individuals. Join us for this powerful conversation that champions diversity, resilience, and the strength in all of us.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:10

Welcome to the Middletown podcast. I'm Kate Hughes and we're searching up through Middletown, and I'm also Autistic. In this episode, I'm delighted to be chatting to one of our Master's students about her very innovative research. Noelle Foley-Cochlin conducted research looking at the strengths of autistic people of marginalized genders. It's a great topic because so much autism research is very negative and deaths are focused. Looking at strengths is a lovely approach. Equally, a lot of autism research is focused on experiences of cisgender boys and men, so looking at experiences of people from other genders is very important. Full disclosure I was lucky enough to be Noelle's supervisor on the project, so I was on the journey with her as she was developing her ideas. I'm delighted to give her space to share those ideas today. So thank you so much, noelle, for joining us on the podcast, and so I want to start by asking you to tell us a bit about your research.

Speaker 2: 1:00

So my research was entitled the Hidden Autistic Voice Exploring the Strengths of Autistic People of Marginalized Genders from Lived Experiences. So when I say marginalized genders, the research cohort included cisgender females, transgender people, non-binary people and intersex people. And the research question I wanted to investigate is how autistic people of marginalized genders perceive their strengths through their lived experiences. And the research gave rise to the forgotten autistic voice, because what we know is that insights from research has largely forgotten the autistic voice. So my research aims to create crucial learnings and insights for young autistic people and their families which we can chat about as we go through the podcast. But there was clear rationale for my research, given the enormous lack of research education, knowledge around autistic strengths in marginalized genders. And studies to date have largely focused on the experience of autistic males, giving further warrant for the exploration of autistic strengths in marginalized genders true lived experiences. And I suppose it's important from the outset to acknowledge that everyone has strengths and challenges, autistic or not, and to recognize that not all challenges are inherent to the person or necessarily an outcome of being autistic. So, as we've heard time and time again, there is a historical presumption that autism affects men and this has resulted in a male bias, resulting in a lack of research on autistic females and even less research on autism in other marginalized genders. So the majority of autistic research really focuses on neurological and biological causes of autism, focusing really exclusively on deficits, and for decades, autistic people have been defined by non autistic people. So you know, kat, it's amazing to think that we're in 2023, yet the field of strengths in autism research is still in its infancy stage. I mean, that's huge and I suppose, in summary, the research provides a strengths based and positive, affirming view of autism and it will take a retrospective view on the personal strengths of autistic people of marginalized genders, true lived experiences and true researching their strengths, based on their internal experiences of autism.

Speaker 2: 3:37

And I suppose, on that note, you know, I just want to say a huge thank you to all the participants who took part in the research and who gave their time and their valuable insights. So I'm really really grateful to each and every person who took the time and the feedback that I've got from the research has been, you know, absolutely fantastic. You know some people would have reached out and thanked me for providing this particular experience that you know, maybe living in a world that isn't designed for autistic people. Sometimes it can be hard, maybe, to focus on your strengths. So I think what I did was I provided a platform to force people to think about their strengths and to think it in a very positive way. And also, you know other people have said, you know, thank me for taking the time and energy to do this research that it really gives them hope for their children's future that there's so many positive autistic voices. Now, you know, challenging that narrative.

Speaker 1: 4:33

Absolutely, and yeah, it's really extraordinary piece of work. I think and obviously I'm slightly biased, as I was usually surprising, but I genuinely think the approach and the interest in looking at that sort of strength based understanding of experiences is so, so important and has been so lacking. And again, I think the idea of giving people the space to stop and think about their own strengths and what they're bringing to the world is so important. So I think, on an individual level, it's had a lovely impact. What was it that made you interested in focusing on the experiences of autistic people with marginalized genders?

Speaker 2: 5:15

And that's a very good question, kath, and that's a question that I have been asked a lot, and I suppose to put some context to that question, research has shown that gender bias has had a detrimental effect on the health and well-being of women and girls autistic women and girls and at the start I was looking at focusing only on cisgender females, and then I came to the realization that I'm excluding a marginalized group within a marginalized group, along with the crucial insights and the learnings.

Speaker 2: 5:52

So then that meant that I opened up my research to people of genders that historically were excluded from research, and also research by Canfisher showed that many autistic people identify as non-binary, transgender or gender fluid. And again just to give some context, the people who undertook my research, 78% of them identified as cisgender females, 12.5% identified as non-binary and 3% identified as transgender. So their voices were crucial in my research and why their lived experiences. I mean, I think that's very simple that in autism research, the views of autistic people and their lived experiences has traditionally been insufficiently considered. So you know, that's why I wanted to look at their lived experiences.

Speaker 1: 6:47

And then, what was it that made you want to focus on strengths in particular?

Speaker 2: 6:52

I suppose the main reason was there was a clear rationale for this research, given the enormous lack of research, education, knowledge around autistic strengths. And you know, when I look back, I remember saying do I have enough here? There was so little research on strengths I was afraid that I may not even have enough for a literature review, because the literature again has largely been impairment-based. But I suppose that was my life-bald moment and that was the reason that my research needed to be conducted. That was the why so little is known about the strengths of autistic people in general true, their lived experiences and even less is known about the strengths of autistic people of marginalised genders, and research to date has largely excluded the autistic voice. However, this is beginning to change and again, I mean we're in 2023, going into 2024, and it's only beginning to change now and that alone speaks volumes on the historical research. So I suppose my research tapped into a huge gap. There was a huge gap in the research here and I think it has created real insights and learnings through people's lived experiences and as told by autistic people themselves and I know you're familiar with the research Palli, cano and Den Houting and the Conventional Medical Paradigm focuses on deficits and impairments, and they have said that often this has the unintended consequence of drawing away from the particular strengths of autistic people and focusing entirely on limitations, whether perceived or real.

Speaker 2: 8:35

So autism has been mainly presented as a set of difficulties and again, that's due to that deficit-focused narrative by non-autistic people. So these difficulties may not be intrinsic to autism, but perhaps to the social and the environmental barriers that create these difficulties. But look, there's growing evidence to suggest that there's certain abilities that also define autism. So you know. Getting back to the question, why did I focus on strengths? I wanted to change the narrative. I wanted to provide a strengths-based and positive affirming view of autism. This is the view that we see as a family, this is the view we see in autistic support groups, but sadly this isn't the view we see in society.

Speaker 1: 9:24

Obviously, your approach was quite layered, because you were looking at marginalized genders and you were looking at strengths. I know, then, that your approach to your methods had to be quite challenging as well, because you wanted to include all of that. Can you talk our listeners through the methods that you used?

Speaker 2: 9:42

Yeah, absolutely. I suppose, looking at the methods and at the start I was trying to figure out what methods would I use and it took a little bit of time to decide what I was going to use I decided to take a mixed method approach. Firstly, I aligned the research to a post-positivism paradigm, acknowledging my perspective within the research. I suppose this paradigm recognizes there are multiple ways of looking at the strengths of autistic people, of marginalized genders. I really wanted to inherit an in-depth knowledge of participants' experiences, their perceptions of how they view their strengths true that lived experience and true that internal experiences of autism With mixed methods. I suppose the reason why I chose mixed methods was to allow me to get as close to the truth as possible. Some people said I was mad using mixed methods and maybe I was putting myself under extra pressure, but for me it added value to the research and it generated a better understanding of the personal strengths of autistic people of marginalized genders. It supported me then to, I suppose, really understand the learnings, to enrich the learnings from the research.

Speaker 2: 11:02

In terms of the actual methods that I chose, the first one was a survey. This was very much based around both qualitative and quantitative data, mainly qualitative. It was important for me to do a survey to ensure that non-speaking autistic people could contribute to the research, but also it was important for me to ensure anonymity and confidentiality. Really, what the survey did was it allowed me to really focus on the themes that emerged from the research. Then that was supported by biographical analysis. The biographical analysis was absolutely fantastic, I must say I really embraced it. It really helped me to understand the personal strengths of autistic people of marginalized genders, to really feel their lived experiences and to uncover the trends, the insights, the learnings for young autistic people. All these books were written by autistic people of marginalized genders. I suppose what the biographical analysis did was it really helped me to form my research, form my survey questions, and it really helped me to, I suppose, maybe reveal issues that needed further research.

Speaker 1: 12:22

I know you took steps as well to make sure that your participants were as looked after and safe as possible, didn't you?

Speaker 2: 12:29

Yeah, absolutely. That was very, very important. I felt I had a duty of care to your participants. It was really important that the survey was piloted. It was piloted by autistic people. It was also piloted by the team at Tenney, which is the Transgender Equality Network Ireland, and they were fantastic, really, as me, I was learning about marginalized genders as well, and it was really important that that duty of care was there. Additionally, I would have provided a number of support groups and support information to participants when they finished the survey, just if they were maybe affected by any of the questions raised. That was really important for my point of view.

Speaker 1: 13:13

Yeah, it's so important, I think, in research in general, that we make sure that it's a comfortable place for people, because we're asking them to give us a lot.

Speaker 2: 13:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 13:24

And then to the meat of things. What did you find?

Speaker 2: 13:28

I suppose the thing is, where do I start? And that's the thing. There is a lot of findings, certainly. So at the start, I asked participants to identify what they believed were their top three personal strengths, and what came out was creativity, kindness and compassion, attention to detail, empathy and resilience. And I suppose, with empathy, that may be surprising to some people, because the non-autistic population would perhaps view autistic people as not having empathy, but actually autistic people do have empathy and it's just a lack of understanding between those two worlds.

Speaker 2: 14:07

And I suppose, adding context to that question, I then would have presented a list of strengths to participants, following that biographical analysis, and I would have asked them to rank their strengths in terms of their primary strengths and their secondary strengths. So the top five primary strengths was resilience, honest, a hyper-focus, a strong sense of justice, a love of animals. And then, in terms of the secondary strengths, the top five that were identified was independence, a unique sense of humor which we can all relate to. You know the unique sense of humor I listened to your podcast with Amanda McGinnis and you know she's very, very funny and she's a great sense of humor Honesty, a strong sense of justice, and then an ability to express emotion or can separate emotion from actions. So I suppose, looking at the strengths, resilience was definitely a core theme that emerged from the data and the rich data from the survey us was demonstrated how participants lived experiences have positively been impacted because of their resilience and equally resilience was very evidence from, you know, very evidence from the biographical analysis really showed the consistency between the primary data and the secondary data. I then went on to ask how strengths have positively impacted autistic people of marginalised genders, and you know it was absolutely fabulous to see participants quoting very positive affirming descriptors to portray how their strengths have positively impacted their lived experiences. So it was very evident from the primary data that participants strengths have supported them to excel in their career. So that definitely was a core theme in the survey and in biographical analysis and also, you know, a strong belief in their own ability. So definitely career success, career progression, was a huge one.

Speaker 2: 16:02

I also asked participants to rank the environments which had the most impact in promoting their strengths. So this was a very interesting one and the survey you know the findings showed overwhelmingly the home environment had the greatest impact in promoting strengths and I suppose what that shows, kat, is the importance of home. This then was followed by the physical environment. So you know, animals, nature, etc. And again, this is no surprise because we've seen, you know, as I said earlier, that the love of animals was ranked in the number, you know was ranked in the top five primary strengths. The third environment was the social environment and again I suppose you know that's friends, local communities, the board groups, and there wasn't a surprise there because there was a huge theme across the research of that sense of community. But I suppose what was surprising is the and you'll probably see a theme emerging here that the school environment, the further education and higher education environment and the work environment were the least impactful. So the work environment was actually ranked as having the least impact in promoting strengths, and it was very interesting to see that not one participant ranked the school environment as the number one choice, having the greatest impact in strengths, and I think what that shows us is it's a clear and definite statement, you know. Instead, the school environment was ranked at number four, and what it shows, kath, really is the importance of the home environment in promoting autistic strengths. So then I went on to ask participants to outline what supports they believed that could assist autistic people in embracing and developing their strengths, and they called for positive representation of autism using a strengths-based approach. And the findings also showed that representation can be achieved through improved teacher training, listening to the autistic community and the visibility of autistic role models and the positive language promotion. I mean, you know, every day we hear words like, you know, units, that you know really it's not a positive word, and we hear words that could be, I suppose, spoken about in a much more positive, affirming way. And that, I suppose, brought me onto my next question in terms of, well, you know, how do we educate society on the benefits of autism? And the evidence shows a real, strong prerequisite, again, to provide a better understanding of autism, and this can be provided through improved teacher training, again through awareness campaigns, you know, similar to the BBC documentaries, and education and training.

Speaker 2: 18:59

I then went on to ask people to document their experience of being autistic and this was very interesting. So participants described their experience of being autistic and the findings definitely yielded some interesting results, and I suppose what I noted here was a feeling of, you know, conflicted emotions arising from both positive and difficult experiences. In terms of the positive experiences, you know, there were fabulous words like unique, authentic, amazing adventure, liberating, fun, exciting, enlightening enrichment, passionate, courageous, rejuvenating, thrilling community. But then some participants reflected on the challenges of being autistic and I suppose we need to ask ourselves, you know, if there was a better and a more positive representation of autism in society, would their perspectives and insights maybe that be that little bit different? You know, some of the words would have been traumatic growing up unidentified as autistic, confusion, not understanding themselves, not understanding I suppose the world, the world has been designed for non-autistic people and you know, definitely traumatic was a word that was used and difficult, so there was very, very mixed feelings there. So that was very, very interesting.

Speaker 2: 20:34

Then I went on to ask about the impact of role models and promoting strengths and this was even more interesting and this has opened up, I think, a whole new world. So, intriguingly, 50% of participants believe this question was not applicable to them. Either they did not have any role model or they did not believe in role models, or they could not name any. I asked for the people who acknowledged that they had role models. I asked them who was their greatest role model autistic or non-autistic and the findings suggested that mothers were the greatest role model in promoting autistic strengths, and again, this is a really strong correlation between the earlier findings of the home environment being the number one environment promoting strengths. And then here we have mothers as a role model, and the reason why the mothers were the role model is because of the promotion of the strengths. I also asked participants if they were aware of any autistic role models and again, the findings yielded some very interesting results. Some people could name one or two. More people could name up to five. So again, not surprising here that Temple Grandin was named as the number one autistic role model. So there was no surprise there. In terms of other role models, amanda McGinnis was named and again, as I said, she had her on the show last week and she's a fantastic ambassador. She is a fantastic role model. Other people that were mentioned Adam Harris was mentioned, chloe Hayden, blind boy Darren McNulty, greta Thunberg, jude Morrow, Mary Doherty. So you know I could go on and I could name a few more, but it was very, very interesting. But there's definitely further research there in terms of what is a role model, the lack of visibility of autistic role models.

Speaker 2: 22:35

So I then went on to look at the learnings and the insights to support autistic people. And this was very, very interesting. And I asked people what was their greatest benefit of being autistic and I think you know we had to understand this first before we could, you know, support young autistic people. So there was 87 perceived benefits of being autistic or recorded, and overwhelmingly it was an understanding of self was the top benefit. I mean, isn't that amazing, you know? An understanding of self that was encompassed in a strong sense of community. Additional benefits was independent thinking, but definitely a strong shared sense of community was very, very evident and I think that was perceived as a real, substantial benefit of being autistic as well. That acceptance, that sense of belonging, you know, that was huge.

Speaker 2: 23:34

So then I went on to ask advice for young autistic people and it's as told by autistics. This was my favourite part of the research. I think this was just the amazing part of the research for me. I asked people to document three pieces of advice for young autistic people. The overwhelming piece of advice was to be yourself and celebrate you, to unashamedly be yourself. I think there's just so much weight in that. Just be yourself, celebrate you, you know, not change to fit in, embrace your difference, embrace your uniqueness. And the other thing was to find your tribe and to seek support. So again, that sense of community. So really participants, really documented community, make sure you find your tribe, you will be supported. Once you find your tribe, you will be supported. And the other part then was to take care of yourself, and I think that's very valid, that's very real and that's very important to look after yourself, to take care of yourself and to ask for support.

Speaker 1: 24:47

Wow, there is so much in there, so much. There are so many elements in that. I just it's just so beautifully positive but also balanced. You know, people are as people fit in themselves and they said to you they have a sense of themselves and they understand their strengths and their challenges, and I think that's it would be beautifully honest but so positive. And that idea of the overriding piece of advice is to be yourself is such an important takeaway, I think, for anyone who is less than who, either if they're autistic themselves or they're supporting an autistic person, it's that encouraging those individual strength and allowing someone just to be their brilliant self.

Speaker 2: 25:33

Absolutely, and just so so powerful.

Speaker 1: 25:36

Yeah, what do you hope that the impact of the findings might be?

Speaker 2: 25:39

I suppose there, you know there's. The findings could be spread across a number of areas, but for me, I think the main one is educating society and the strengths of autism. And the findings show the crucial need to listen to and to learn from autistic people, to respect their views and to respect their lived experiences, to create positive representation of autism. And I suppose by listening to the autistic community, you know this will help dispel the stereotypes created by society due to the lack of knowledge and the lack of understanding on autism and to promote a more accurate representation and understanding. You know of autism and this is crucial, kat, when it comes to policy development, be it on a national level or a local level, be it school policies, be it organizational policies or community policies, but the autistic voice, it's incredibly strong and it's incredibly strong in asking for a more inclusive society to support a positive representation of autism and reducing, you know, that misconception and that stigma, and I suppose you know looking at autistic people and to see more visibility of autistic people in terms of autistic educators, autistic professionals, autistic mentors, autistic doctors. You know we need this in our community. We need to see that visibility and you know autistic people by using their voice. They can highlight their accomplishments and their personal strengths with a view to changing society's perception of autism and to raise awareness of the strengths and the abilities of autistic people, of marginalized genders. And, of course, look, change is a slow process, but each small step is a step towards a positive, representative representation of autism and autistic people. And again, it's imperative that we change that narrative of how non-autistic people view autism and also it's imperative that non-autistic people listen to autistic people and you know their visibility, as I said, can influence and shape a more inclusive society that celebrates autism. Again, going back to that, you know the finding BU celebrate you. You know the key theme that emerged from the research the other area, cath, is career success. So you know the key to career success is the identification and the recognition of key strengths and the opportunity to develop these strengths. And developing strengths may lead to careers that are aligned with special interests, and I suppose it's important to acknowledge that career success for some autistic people may present a challenge and the findings here would imply that autism is not a restriction to career development and career success and that actually autism can present a unique set of strengths that could advance careers and contribute to the future world of work. So it's crucial that autistic people are afforded the same opportunity for professional development, academic success, career progression, career success to those available to the non-autistic population. And I think what we need to do to embrace inclusion and create a steady talent pipeline. Organizations should ensure that autistic people are involved in decision making and giving autistic people a platform to inform organizations, diversity, inclusion strategies, to inform training programs, policy frameworks. So there's a clear need here for a future discussion on how organizations can embrace autistic strengths and how autistic people fit into human resource planning. You know, that's really, really important because clearly the findings imply that autistic people of marginalized genders can grow, can develop and can thrive in their careers thanks to their strengths.

Speaker 2: 29:34

And I suppose the final one here and I mean I could talk all day, but you know I'm not more limited on time but the final one here is improved teacher education. That was the huge theme that came out of the research. So I would hope that teacher education can improve and it's evidence, evidence from very evident from the findings that there is a strong requirement for teacher training and improved teacher training around autism and it appears that teachers misunderstandings of autism may suppress autistic strengths and this findings show convincingly that each autistic person is unique and it's this uniqueness that needs to be embraced by educators when developing strengths. So teacher training, curricular development around autism should avoid generalizations and assumptions based on the limited knowledge or stereotypes of how autism presents. Now I know the Department of Education's publication Autism Good Practice Guidance for Schools emphasizes abilities. It emphasizes personal accomplishments, talents and preferences, rather than a deficit approach, which was previously adopted to support autistic children and young people, and this is fantastic to see. But again, this was only published last year.

Speaker 2: 30:51

So, as I said earlier, change is a very slow process.

Speaker 2: 30:54

What they do add in is, in order to implement a strengths based approach, it's crucial for education staff to have high aspirations for autistic students, including those students who have complex needs, and I know you know you, kath, and your colleagues at Middletown are absolutely fantastic in providing training to teachers, to professionals and indeed to parents, and all these supports are absolutely crucial to continue to improve teacher education around autism. So you know, as I said, kat, I could talk all day with regards to this and revisiting the research title. The study has allowed me to engage with the autistic community, to embrace and to appreciate their personal strengths and, in turn, empower me as a researcher to inform and educate society on the many things that autistic people of marginalized genders possess and their value to contribution to society. So if we can build a foundation where society understands autism and acknowledges the lived experiences of autistic people using the positive, affirming language and the positive representation that we spoke about well, then it will increase the recognition of autism and the strengths of autism in Ireland and globally.

Speaker 1: 32:11

And you spoke already about sort of how you want to sort of dig deeper into that role model piece that you find, because there's definitely a lot more there. Are there other areas that you'd love to sort of? Take the research if you could, or you'd love to see research heading in?

Speaker 2: 32:29

Yes, and I suppose you know that's a very good question. If I was to continue my studies, I would like to look at continuing that strengths-based approach, and I think the research has highlighted a number of areas that you know would warrant further investigation. One particular area that I possibly would like to look at is the future of work from an autistic perspective. So looking at work from that autism lens, so why was the work environment ranked as having the least impact in promoting strengths? Yet queer development is clearly an area that has benefited from the strengths of autistic people, of marginalized genders. So I think there is definitely a lot more research to be done there. The other one that is interesting is the interconnection between autism and resilience. You know is resilience developed, giving them many challenges faced by autistic people and their ability to adapt and to cope with these challenges. And you know, as I said earlier, some people had a very positive experience of being autistic and more people it wasn't as positive. So it does give me to ask the question well, why is resilience such an important skill for autistic people? And further investigation is required as to whether we want autistic people to build resilience or to live in a world where resilience is less necessary. So I think that would be very interesting.

Speaker 2: 33:55

The other areas that I can see further investigation is, as you said, the role models. I think that's definitely an area Looking at the impact of role models versus the impact of emulating certain behaviors or traits and maybe looking at, well, what is the meaning of role models, what are the assumptions of the meaning of role models and if these assumptions are true to the meaning of being autistic, or are they demonstrated of the autistic experience? And I think, finally, the other area that there could warrant further investigation, if there's any other researchers listening in, is teachers' perception, their stereotypes and their assumptions of autistic children's strengths. Was it promotal autistic strengths or could it possibly stifle autistic strengths? So I think they're probably the areas that definitely require further research. But in essence, there are so many, so many areas that you could focus on, but I think for me what I'm going to do now is take some time out to enjoy my newfound freedom. So, if there's anybody, a researcher's listening, I think definitely there's huge areas there.

Speaker 1: 35:13

Right and yeah, I think, as people can hear, there's an awful lot of work that's been done on this. So, yeah, I think you've more than earned a bit of a break. I think it's very reasonable, definitely and I suppose that that sort of leads me to my next question. Like you were so passionate about it and so involved in the subject and really wanted to make sure that you were properly representing people's experiences as much as you could and being kind to people and keeping them safe as much as you could, how did you find a balance as you were working through the project and how do you kind of look after yourself through the process?

Speaker 2: 35:51

And that's a very good question and I suppose for me I love learning, I have a huge I believe it's a huge value in lifelong learning and for me it brings a sense of accomplishments and a sense of purpose. And this research has really given me a sense of purpose. But sometimes it's hard to find that balance between your research and looking after yourself. So for me it was crucial to take breaks and to set myself milestones. And you know, kath, we're all human. There's some weekends I did absolutely nothing and that's okay, and that's absolutely fine. This was important to prevent burnout. So I married Pottie and Pottie will pull you back fairly lively and he will tell you well, you need to take a break, you need to take some time out. I have two little girls, age seven and nine, so you know they keep me busy. There's always activities, from gymnastics to rugby, gaa to piano, to horse riding the list is endless. So, as you can see, I'm kept busy and you know that's separate to my career. But a big part for me, I suppose, was the support of Dr Paulus Seth from MIC, and Paulus provided group counselling to us to discuss our research and the challenges we encountered when researching autism and the historical research which you know. Let's face it, it's deeply upsetting. And also, I think our group was unique. We all gelled so well together and we really looked out for one another and I think that support was crucial.

Speaker 2: 37:30

So I suppose, how do I look after myself? You know, that's the question. As a family, we love getting out into nature. It does good for the soul. We have two fabulous dogs, which I don't know if you can hear them barking in the background Jack is a colleague in Charles and Charlie is a Dalmatian, so there's always a need to walk them or, you know, have a little cuddle and separate to that. I have a fantastic family my mum and my dad, and I am one of five siblings. So you know, there's always something, there's always a birthday party or an event which definitely ensures that you have to take some time out. And I also like taking time to myself and I do try to prioritise this, and this could be something very simple, like sitting in a coffee shop, you know, watching the world go by, or just simply pressing pause. It's just that headspace for yourself and I think I prioritise that.

Speaker 1: 38:24

So important, isn't it? I think, yeah, and allowing ourselves permission to look after ourselves. I think this is incredibly important. In amongst all of the busyness and all of the chaos and all of the hard work, we have to take some time to ourselves. Definitely, yeah. And is there any advice that you'd give to other students who are just sort of starting out on their journey in autism research?

Speaker 2: 38:48

I would say to anyone thinking of research or, you know, starting out on their journey in this field is you know, please focus on strengths-based and positive affirming research and let's change the narrative around autism. For far too long, I think, research has focused on deficits and the challenges around autism and, quite frankly, research has excluded that lived experience. So I would say, focus on the autistic voice and I suppose I just want to say you know, just do it and know that you're making a meaningful impact in this field. Establish connections with you know, fellow students as I said, our group was fantastic Lecturers. The lecturers from Middleton Centre of Autism and Mary Macalach College were, you know, second to none, absolutely fantastic.

Speaker 2: 39:39

And, you know, talk to professionals in the field. That's really, really important. So listen to the professionals, listen to the autistic voice, don't be afraid to ask for support and, you know, recognise that autism is a spectrum and that individuals may have vastly different experiences. So be open to new ideas, even if they challenge prevailing theories or, you know, challenge perspectives. But the field of autism is really dynamic and it's about being receptive to that and using the strengths-based concepts, because this is what's going to lead to groundbreaking research which can then inform future practice and policy. So I suppose, in summary, what I would say is let your passion for understanding autism drive your research. That's what I did Stay curious. I'm a very curious person. Ask questions, ask more questions, keep asking questions and seek out new avenues you know for you to explore.

Speaker 1: 40:38

Amazing and I think it will be very clear to anyone listening how passionate you are about the topic and how thorough you are in your approach to the topic, which, as a supervisor, is an absolute delight.

Speaker 1: 40:50

It was a dream to work on the project and to be able to collaborate with you, so thank you so much, and thank you so much for sharing your experiences on the podcast. Thank you, kat. Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. If you want to know more about Middleton Out, you can find us on Twitter at Autism Center, or on Facebook or Instagram at Middleton Center for Autism.