The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
The Middletown Podcast features interviews with leading thinkers and practitioners across the autistic and autism community. Conversations are autism-affirming and neurodiversity-informed with a focus on the lived experience and knowledge of our community. Episodes highlight issues impacting autistic people and we share ideas for family members and school staff who are providing support.
The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
Being Autistic with Niamh Garvey
It can be difficult for parents to know how to best support their child as they explore their autistic identity. In this podcast, we chat to autistic author Niamh Garvey about her new book focused on children as they learn what being autistic means for them.
For more information on Niamh’s book, “Being Autistic (And What That Actually Means)” visit: https://niamhgarvey.com/books-for-autistic-kids/
Welcome to the Middletown Podcast. I'm Kat Hughes, I'm a researcher at Middletown and I'm also autistic. In this episode I chat to Niamh Garvey. Niamh is an autistic author who writes books for both adults and children, and her most recent book is called being Autistic. It's a gorgeous book for children who are just starting to figure out what it means to them to be autistic. I want to chat to her about why she decided to write the book, some tips she might have for parents and children in her own journey as an autistic parent. Niamh is a lovely, warm character and I enjoyed our chat. I hope you do too. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. So the first thing I wanted to ask you was what made you want to write a book for children who are just kind of learning about their autistic identity.
Speaker 2:Thanks, kat, thanks so much for having me as well.
Speaker 2:So after my first book was published for adults, I had a lot of people ask me to recommend a book for children that explained autism, and because I have autistic children myself, I knew that it was really hard to find a book like this.
Speaker 2:A lot of the books that are out there treat autism like a deficit or a superpower, and I just really wanted to avoid both those ideas. So I was actually in the middle of writing another book at the time for adults and the idea came into my head to write a book for children myself, and I had to pause the adult book and just get stuck into the kids book. Um, so, yeah, and I decided then, really early on that I wanted to be really visual, because so many autistic kids are really visual thinkers. So, um, I asked my publishers could we illustrate it and could we get an autistic illustrator? Because I thought that could bring a whole other perspective as well, and it allowed me bring a lot of humor into the book, which made it a really really fun book to write, which was quite different to my books for adults. So it was actually a lovely experience.
Speaker 1:Great, yes, yeah, and it is. It's a beautiful book between the two of you. I think what you brought together is just absolutely gorgeous. I have it in front of me, thank you, and are there common concerns? Do you think that children have when they are just sort of learning about their autistic identity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there could be huge concerns. I think they're often afraid that this identification means that there's something wrong with them and sometimes they think, oh, they're going to change now that they have a label. This um identification means that there's something wrong with them, um, and sometimes they think, oh, they're going to change now that they have a label. Um. And a very common one I've seen has been that they're afraid of what other people will think if they know that they're autistic. So a lot of kids treat treated like this big, terrible secret and they tell their family don't tell anyone I'm autistic. Now I don't want anyone to know.
Speaker 2:And another one I've seen actually quite a lot since I've written the book is a lot of parents have contacted me telling me that their child has refused to accept their identification as autistic because they might have a sibling who has a very different presentation of autism. Or they know someone in school who's a very different presentation of autism so they can't relate to it. So that was really important to me with the book to show all different presentations and show that autism can be very different in different kids. So yeah, that I was. I was very aware of those concerns when writing the book and trying to kind of alleviate those concerns in different passages in the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, goodness, like, even for myself and like I was, it's a long time since I got my diagnosis. But I was very much an adult when I got my diagnosis. But I think I didn't have a full understanding of what it meant to be autistic and initially I wasn't comfortable and I was like, well, I don't know who I'm going to tell, I don't know how I'm going to tell people. So I think it's it can be natural to go on that sort of roller coaster, can't it?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I did the same thing and when I got diagnosed, I remember or identified however you prefer to use your language. I was really apprehensive about telling anyone at first and I got the advice to just give yourself time to process it and I took about six months of telling no one by our immediate family and I think it was a really good thing to do because I became really comfortable with it before I started. About six months of telling no one by our immediate family and I think it was a really good thing to do because I became really comfortable with it before I started telling people, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you had a chance to kind of think about what it actually meant for you, which I think is really important yeah. Do you have sort of ideas around how parents can support?
Speaker 2:um a not so young person, if they're sort of just learning about their identity and even if it's a sort of new information for the parent as well yeah, like, I think the most important thing to do is um touch base with other autistic people you know, and let both the parents and the child know that they're not alone, that there are other autistic people, um, especially autistic adults, you know, because you can. The child might not actually be aware of what it looks like to be an autistic adult. And I actually had a child come up to me at one of my, at my book launch and he said oh, you're the first autistic person. Other autistic person I've ever met, you know, and I thought, wow, like that was so important to him. I didn't know him. You know, they'd just seen it advertised and that meant so much to him. I didn't know him. He just, you know, they'd just seen it advertised and that meant so much to him to meet another autistic person and know that he's not alone in the world. And I said to him oh, you've met loads of autistic people you just don't know they were autistic, because people don't wear a badge going around saying I'm autistic. And I said loads of people are autistic, you just don't know. So it's about normal, normalizing it. I think that's the really the really um important first step.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I I'm a huge believer in books. I turn to books for everything. So finding books for your children, and that doesn't necessarily just mean non-fiction. There's a lot of fiction now for um, for all readers, and they have autistic characters in them. Um, elle McNichol is a writer I really would be a fan of, and Kate Foster as well for younger kids, and both of them write beautiful books with autistic main characters, and I think that's really important for children to just see themselves represented in books and in media. And, again, that's just normalising it, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that representation is so important. I actually just finished reading Something Like a Cold by Elle McNichol, which is a gorgeous romance, like a YA romance, and the lead character happens to be autistic and it's just so beautifully done. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And what I love about Elle's book are that the story isn't about being autistic. It's a story and the characters just happen to be autistic, and I think that that's really important, because kids don't want it to be shoved down their throat. They just want to know that autistic people exist and things happen them in their lives the same way it does for anyone, you know yeah, and they can just get on with their lives and being young people and the excitement around that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely exactly yeah. And you mentioned the idea of sort of superpowers and how you didn't want to sort of talk about autism in relation to superpowers, which I think a lot of things for newly identified autistic people does tend to focus on what. Why did you feel that way?
Speaker 2:yeah, I have a big problem with the idea of autism as a superpower, and I suppose I have two main reasons for that, like. Firstly, I just think that, like, my big ethos is trying to get people to see autism as just a normal thing. You know, it's a normal part of humanity and we don't need to be better or worse than anyone else. We're just equal. So so the idea of having a superpower or being a superhero, um, doesn't tie in with that. I'm not. I don't want to be trying to say, oh, we're actually better than all you neurotypical people. I think that's an unhealthy message, um.
Speaker 2:And the second thing is as well is that I think it could really alienate an autistic child who's reading a book about all these other kids who think their autism is a superpower, when the reader might not feel that at all. You know, and, yeah, they might have a really super strength in you know some really good skill, or they might have really super senses, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing to that child at that time in their life. So, having really super hearing, yeah, okay, it's. It might be cool if you're working in the music industry or something, but it could be the thing that causes that child the most challenges in their daily life. If they can't cope with loud noise, or or if a child has a really strong smell, okay, it could be a really super strength if you work in certain fields, like perfume or something like that, but it might mean that you actually can't go into your kitchen when someone's cooking.
Speaker 2:And it could of of presenting it like a superpower because, yeah, like I wanted any child to be able to pick up my book and and find themselves in it and be able to relate to it and not feel, oh, now I feel more alienated because I don't have any superpower and I don't think I'm going to change the world and I'm not a super genius at anything, you know. So I just wanted any child to be able to, to feel part of the book it's's so important, I think, and I absolutely agree on the superpower thing and just thinking for myself like when I was a youngster, like, yeah, I knew everything about dogs, literally everything there was to know about dogs.
Speaker 1:I knew which could be seen as an unusual superpower, but it certainly wasn't something that was appreciated by my classmates when I just constantly talked about dogs. You know, yeah, I agree it can.
Speaker 2:It can be a strange way to frame it and not a helpful way to frame it at all definitely yeah, like it's lovely to point out the child's strengths and to focus on their strengths and to really embrace their strengths, especially around special interests and hyper focus and I think getting a really good respect for your child's special interest is probably the key to helping them thrive and it's such a motivator and it's also just such a calming technique and tool for the child and it also gives them such a sense of meaning in life. So I totally believe in emphasizing their strengths, but I don't think your strength has to be seen as an actual superpower that is above you know everybody else yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree, and it can be lonely as well. If you have a an interest in something and there's there's no one who joins you in that interest, it can be really lonely. So I think it's such a gift that the parents and people around autistic people can can give if they find interest in it too and join them in that it can make a huge difference absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that can tie back into what I said earlier about families linking up with other autistic families and other autistic adults, and I've often thought it would be so lovely to have like a mentorship program where children who have unusual interests can, you know, identify themselves and some autistic adults in the country somewhere else might have that same interest and they can connect over that.
Speaker 2:Because often parents have no interest in their child's special interest, and actually not necessarily just no interest, but like I, for example, one of my kids has gotten interested in coding. I have absolutely no capacity with that so I can't actually help her thrive with that. So being able to link her up with other people who do have an interest in that and can bring her on and just have a chat about it, I think that that would be a lovely idea. You know so and it does. I've seen that happen when I've brought my kids to meet other autistic people. If you have a big group of autistic people, you will find somewhere an else in there who has some interest in what you're interested, no matter how obscure it is definitely and then um, like you mentioned, when you were identified as autistic um that you took that sort of time to sort of let that information settle and see how you felt about it.
Speaker 1:Did you always feel positively about your autistic identity?
Speaker 2:yeah, I did. Now I was only diagnosed um three, four years ago, so I was an adult um and the reason I got diagnosed or identified was I was studying a diploma in autism in UCC because my daughter had been diagnosed and I wanted to understand it so I could support her better, because I realized I had a very outdated idea of what autism meant and I kind of couldn't relate her to what I thought autism meant. And while I was studying it I was seeing myself in all the lectures, you know, just in a different way to my daughter um. So, yeah, then that's how I got, how I figured out I was autistic and um got um assessed and I had it was. To me it was like the biggest celebration ever. You know. I just felt it was what a gift to give myself to now realize why I've struggled with certain things in my life and why I've often felt different. So, yeah, it was a huge celebration for me. It just put all my life into perspective and it just started to make sense of everything. And then what came from that was being able to figure out ways to support myself.
Speaker 2:You know, like I, I knew I had a lot of challenges. For example, I thought I was having recurrent anxiety attacks and I didn't know why, because I wasn't having anxious thoughts. But then I realized, oh no, they're autistic meltdowns and they're from overwhelm and sensory build-up and things like that. So then I knew, okay, now I have to completely change my approach and stop trying to do anxiety management for a meltdown, because they're two separate things. So it was, it was um, it really allowed me to build strategies to support myself. So, yeah, completely positive experience for me that's gorgeous.
Speaker 1:I love hearing that it can be. It's a really interesting time, I think, because when you realize that you're autistic, it's almost like okay, restart. You know, like relearn how you exist in the world, because you've been trying to force yourself into this little box that doesn't fit and then you go what shape am I?
Speaker 2:And I think it kind of led to kind of of I don't know is this the right way to say it, but, um, to forgive yourself, because you know I would have blamed myself and I suppose because other people act as though there's something wrong with you and act as though you're in the wrong when you don't understand the social thing, or if you say the wrong thing because you misinterpreted what someone else said, again then you blame yourself.
Speaker 2:So there can be a lot of blame and shame and I would have had a lot of shame, um, around me as a person, just in general and learning, I was autistic, then kind of lifted that completely and I went oh no, uh, I did nothing wrong, I just my brain just works differently. Um, and I that that it was like a did nothing wrong. I just my brain just works differently. And I that it was like a light bulb, it just disappeared. All that self-blame and shame just stopped. And that was such an important thing for me in writing the book for children, because so many children do end up feeling kind of ashamed or feeling so othered and I just really didn't want children growing up with that sense. You know, I wanted them to be kind to themselves, because I think that is so important for developing good mental health, especially when you're approaching the teenage years, you know.
Speaker 1:Usually absolutely, and so you got your diagnosis as an adult. So what was your school life like then?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my school life was kind of two separate things. One I loved school because I loved learning. I was really academic and I was really like, no matter what we were learning in school, I would get really obsessed with it. You know, and I was very lucky in that I was academically very strong and I also was able to switch interests really easily. You know, I know a lot of autistic kids would really struggle with that, you know, and they kind of will hyper focus on certain subjects and really struggle with others. But I actually had a really broad interest in all learning. So from that side I loved it and I also loved the routine that school provided. It was really structured, it was really routine. You knew when you were eating, you knew when you were doing whatever you were doing in school. So that was really grounding for me. But then on the other side of that, I really struggled socially and from the age of nine I was really really badly bullied. You know I had my clothes tugged, I was physically pushed, I chairs pulled out from when I was about to sit down. So, like I, I was very much excluded and I had a really, really tough time. Um, so I kind of hated that side of school and I and as a result I over focused them on the academic side because that felt safe to me and it felt predictable.
Speaker 2:But in secondary school then it kind of changed, because I learned how to mask and I learned how to mask well, and I just hid my autism and I hid my differences and I copied. I just studied what other people did and I remember I used to buy psychology books and psychology magazines to figure out what. You know, why do people act this way, how to say things? And I used to just do scripts. I used to walk to school and I used to practice what I'd say and oh, I put a huge amount of work into masking and I had no idea that that was not what everyone else did, but it was a survivor strategy, you know, and it did get me through school, it did make me friends, um, but yeah, it's, it's not natural and it's it's exhausting to do that. So I I probably hit burnout really. Then, when I was about 18 and finished school, the minute I left it I just completely crashed, you know and which I think is so, so common, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Oh, so common. Yeah, and I was actually really lucky I took a year out before I started university because I think had I gone straight to university, I could have burnt out in university. But actually I took a year out after school and I did a course in massage and alternative health and it was just for me to give myself a break from the severe kind of serious study and to just do something that felt more kind of nourishing to me. So that was a really good thing to be doing whilst having a burnout, because it was. You know, I was getting a massage twice a week from other students and doing yoga and, you know, focusing on health, uh, in a holistic, holistic way and mental health. So so, yeah, that was that was nice.
Speaker 1:You must have had a really good sense of what would work for you and what you needed though in in some way.
Speaker 2:I think subconsciously I did, but I wasn't very aware of it. Um, and as well, like I grew up in a very arty house, my dad was a writer, my mom was a theater director, so there was a lot of creativity and we were always encouraged to find creative outlets and to connect with nature. So whenever anyone was having a bad day, it was out into nature. Out into nature and um expression. And years later I heard someone on the radio saying a mantra uh, expression beats depression. And I just thought that is the mantra for my life. You know, and um, I think my parents they didn't say that, but they were definitely preaching that and acting, living with that, um, kind of ethos. So, just naturally, we had a very nature and arty life and that really supported me. So I was able to feel safe at home and feel calm. So even when school was hard, I could come home to feeling that I had areas of safety. If you know what I mean, you know that's wonderful.
Speaker 1:And what was it then that made you want to to start writing books?
Speaker 2:So I suppose because my dad was a writer, I grew up knowing that writing was a career and writing was just a normal part of life, and he used to. He died when I was nine but he used to give me all these little writing challenges. Now I realise he was just trying to get work done and like get rid of me for a few minutes. But at Now I realise he was just trying to get work done and get rid of me for a few minutes. But at the time I thought it was very oh, he's giving me attention. But he used to go and write a poem about a butterfly or go and write a story about a doll that comes alive or whatever. So it was very much encouraged and I loved English. It was probably my favourite subject in school. I absolutely loved it and I loved creative writing and I loved reading. I kind of gave up then in college but after my second child was born I was really struggling with postnatal depression and I realised I had no creative outlet at all in life at that time and I was nursing full time as well and finding that really challenging managing full-time, shift work and two small babies not knowing I was autistic. So I realized I had to do something pretty urgently to protect my mental health and I said, okay, what creativity can I do? And my mind just said, okay, try writing. So I began with creative writing and I did a few courses and I wrote novels for a hobby, you know and I just loved it. I really loved it.
Speaker 2:Um, now, I never thought I'd write non-fiction. That was a big surprise to me and it happened when I was studying the diploma in autism and a lecturer stopped a lecturer one day and said, niamh, you have to write a book of strategies for adults. And I was like, what book of strategies non-fiction? I? I was like what, a book of strategies Non-fiction? I've never thought of that. And I just gave it a go and that was it. And I just I loved it, you know, and I was like, oh, this is a nice way to tie in my really academic interests with the kind of creativity involved in writing and writing. The children's book, of all the books I've written now, has been the best for that, because I got to let my imagination run wild and I got to bring in a lot of humor and ridiculousness into my, into the images that I asked the illustrator to to to illustrate, you know. So yeah, it was such a fun experience.
Speaker 1:And were you thinking of your younger self when you were putting it together?
Speaker 2:Completely, and I never had expected that. Actually, I didn't go into it thinking I'm going to write a book about myself, but what I decided early on was to have three different characters and each character would have a very different presentation of autism. You know, like this one non-speaking child, this one really, really boisterous ADHDer. And then there's a really quiet girl who is completely and utterly me, you know, a total bookworm. And as I was writing her I was like remembering all the things I used to do. And then I just consciously went oh, she's me. So I'll just go back into my childhood and remember hiding in little nooks to read and hiding under tables at birthday parties.
Speaker 2:And it was really interesting to just reflect back in such a detailed way on my childhood through the lens of an of of autism and as an adult, and go. That's why I used to get into the hot press and hide after school, you know. So it was really interesting, yeah, and it was. I was really thinking of myself. And now I love, if I meet a child who's read the book and they're they're a real little quiet bookworm. I'm like, oh, I'm meeting me again. It's lovely, you know, it's really nice, gorgeous and, yeah, incredibly relatable, literally.
Speaker 1:In my house we had what was called the hiding table where I would go if the doorbell went off.
Speaker 2:I went to the hiding, yeah that was me, or behind the couch. I used to pull out the couch and just get in behind it and be squashed as much as I could, yeah and then is there advice like knowing everything you know about yourself now.
Speaker 2:Is there advice that you'd give to your younger self if you could yeah, I think I suppose the main thing is, if I'd known I was autistic, you know, I just think that would have changed things so much.
Speaker 2:And that's why I always say to parents tell your child they're autistic as early as possible. You know, there doesn't need to be this big sit down when they're 12, like just from the minute you know, just start using it in everyday life. I just wish I'd had that, um, because had I understood that, I would have understood that I didn't need to try and change myself. And I suppose that's the biggest advice I had to give myself is that it's okay to be different and it's okay to stand out and you know, just, you don't need to pretend that you're someone different, just to be like everyone else. So, yeah, I think that would be my biggest advice to give myself. Whether I'd have believed it or not it's another question, but I think had I understood I was autistic, then I would have believed it. But if I just came along to myself and said you don't need to be different, I'd have said, no, I, I, I am, I'm different, I don't know, I have to change, I don't have, I have to be the same as everyone else.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, and you mentioned then the advice that you give to parents in terms of, uh sort of talking about autistic identity as early as possible. Is there any other advice that you'd give to people who are supporting a young autistic person?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think the most important thing is just to try and instill as much self-acceptance as you can, and the best way to do that is by the parent accepting their child's autism. You know, I've seen a lot of parents trying to encourage their children to mask and to hide their autism, and I just I know where it comes from. You know it usually comes from a place of trying to protect your child, but actually I think it's better to give them the option, you know, and say to them look, you could, you could hide it or you could just be comfortable with it and try to embrace it. And I've done that with my own child and it's actually really helped. It's really helped her to go. Oh yeah, I have a choice I can mask if I want to, but there are consequences to masking, or I can just try to get comfortable, uh, with this. And you know she'll choose different things on different days and that's up to her um and as well, I think, just like I said earlier about really, um, indulging the special interests and allowing them to have periods of hyper focus and treating it as a really positive thing, whether um you agree or like it or not, as long as it's, you know, safe and morally okay. Just, you know, encourage them to really indulge in their special interests and use it as a daily calming, calming thing and to never, ever, withhold a special interest.
Speaker 2:You know that that could, that could be so damaging, because they really need it to calm their nervous system on a daily basis, if at all possible, and as well, I think, just to avoid treating autism like a medical problem, you know, and if you are doing therapies, don't talk about them like they're a treatment, don't talk about them as if they're something that will eradicate a challenging autistic trait, because there are no autistic traits that need to be eradicated, but there are ones that need to be supported.
Speaker 2:And um, yeah, I've seen that really in my own life, especially with my kids that, um, if you go to a therapist and you realize, oh, I don't think they're very neuroaffirmative, or they're saying things like first you have to make eye contact and then you've to talk to me, you know, just don't allow that I have left the clinic because the speech therapist was insisting on eye contact and just to go with your gut, and if you know that this person is not neuroaffirmative, then leave and find someone else, because a therapy should be there to support your child, to get comfortable with themselves, not to try and get rid of things or to make them do things that push them out of their, their comfort zone. Um, due to being autistic, you know yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:I think we talk an awful lot about people being pushed out of their comfort zones, and that's pretty much where autistic people live all of the time. So, yeah, it's about finding your comfort zone as much as anything, isn't it, and trying to be it is and supported.
Speaker 2:And obviously it's about finding your comfort zone as much as anything, isn't it, and trying to be supportive and obviously sometimes it's important to push yourself out of your comfort zone in certain things if you want to, but I'm really talking about your nervous system comfort zone and not pushing a child out of their nerve, like if you're. If you're pushing them to do something that is really bringing up their stress hormones and bringing up their anxiety, do something that is really bringing up their stress hormones and bringing up their anxiety, then that's not a safe place for them to be in, because the more often they're in that space, the more it becomes their norm and they they forget what it feels like to actually feel calm, and it's really important they have that calmness in their life that's definitely yeah.
Speaker 1:And then my very last question for you is what's next, because you're a busy bee, I know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot next actually. So I have two books out next year. The first one I'm editing, so I'm not writing it, and that will be out with New Island Books, who are an Irish publisher, and that's really exciting for me because they're a mainstream literary kind of publisher. So this is a big chain, you know. It's really different to my other books are with Jessica Kingsley, who are kind of focused on mental health and they have a huge focus on autism, um, so it's really nice to have a book with kind of a mainstream publisher and it's a beautiful book. It's. It's 24 essays by Irish autistic adults and it just gives you so much uh, perspectives and um stories and anecdotes of all these different Irish adults and, like, the age range is from 18 to 71, so it spans a huge age range and you just see how different autism has presented or can be or for for all different people. So it's actually a really it's. It's such an exciting book for me. I can't wait for that one to come out, um. And then I've also one that I'm writing and it is um, it's kind of like a handbook on autistic communication and socializing. So it's research heavy, it's information heavy and it's strategy heavy and that's with Jessica Kingsley um, so that's next year.
Speaker 2:And then I am um looking at doing a follow-on book to being autistic for children and making it about um strategies that kids can use in their own life and just breaking strategies down into simple terms that um just to give them little tools and and tips that will help them navigate their own life as an autistic child. So it's not always the parent having to implement it, because I think it's really important to teach children from as early as possible that they can take a bit of control over their self-soothing and control over what helps them, especially because so many children have autistic children have alexithymia, which means they don't recognize their feelings and emotions. So by giving them strategies and tips, it can help them to start practicing with them and start recognizing. Oh yeah, when I did that I didn't hit meltdown. Therefore I was actually going to be overwhelmed but I didn't get overwhelmed because I did this little too.
Speaker 2:So even if they don't recognize what they're feeling, it can be really helpful that they start to learn these tips and strategies, and I think from as early as possible, and I've been doing it with my, my youngest child since she was about, like, since she was born, basically, um, even as a two-year-old she was able to say I feel overwhelmed, like it would have been one of the first things she learned how to say, even when she couldn't say other things, you know, and I just think it's um, it's so important to give kids that, that power and control over themselves. So that's that's, that's what's next very busy and very exciting.
Speaker 1:I'm very excited about all of those. They seem brilliant. Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. The views expressed in these chats may not always be the view of middletown center. If you'd like to know more about middletown, you can find us on x at autism center and facebook and instagram at middletown center for autism. Go easy until next time.