The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
The Middletown Podcast features interviews with leading thinkers and practitioners across the autistic and autism community. Conversations are autism-affirming and neurodiversity-informed with a focus on the lived experience and knowledge of our community. Episodes highlight issues impacting autistic people and we share ideas for family members and school staff who are providing support.
The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
Aimee Barrett-Theron – Rugby Referee and Professional Athlete
In this episode, we’re delighted to chat to professional athlete and Rugby Referee, Aimee Barrett-Theron. Aimee represented South Africa in the Rugby World Cup before becoming an International referee. We discuss the positives that being autistic brings to refereeing and how she shapes her sensory and communicative experience.
Welcome to the Middletown Podcast. I'm Kat Hughes, I'm a researcher at Middletown and I'm also autistic. In this episode I chat to Amy Barathron. Amy is an extraordinary athlete. She's represented South Africa in the Rugby World Cup. She's refereed at the Olympics. She also happens to be autistic. I know I've mentioned on the podcast before that one of my special interests is rugby, so I was so excited to have a chance to chat to Amy. I know this isn't a rugby podcast so I was very restrained in my rugby questions. We did have a really interesting chat about Amy's life, her drive and how being autistic has helped her to be such a brilliant referee. I her drive and how being autistic has helped her to be such a brilliant referee. I hope you enjoy our chat. Well, amy, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. The first question that I had for you is what do you love about rugby?
Speaker 2:The quick answer is everything. I'm hopelessly obsessed. I have always been very fortunate to have grown up in a rugby mad country as well, so that does help. But at the same time, I think it doesn't actually matter where I am, I just love the game. Like everything's different. Every game is different. You know, there's so many incredible players out there and it's yeah, I'm just very fortunate enough to share the field with them. But, yeah, the contact, the tries, the defense, the um, everything about it, and obviously going into the reffing side as well, like it's such a mental challenge and a physical challenge as well. It's just, um, I love that and it's not the the same thing week in, week out, although, uh, you know, I'd love the same routine. At the same time, a rugby forces you to not have that routine. Um, and it's actually an amazing part of it how did you get into refereeing?
Speaker 2:and so I played. I played for many years. I started playing touch rugby and then I was reffing touch rugby. I played a lot of sports and I found a lot of the sports that I was playing I was reffing or umpiring as well. Um played for the national team for quite a couple of years. Uh, played in a few world cups, and I was like this is amazing, living the dream. But to say women's rugby wasn't really comparable to the men's, it's not really. You couldn't make it a career at that time. And and I had the opportunity to do my master's um at my university, uh, and so I chose the. You know much of my most of my teachers back in high school, much to their delight, I chose my academics.
Speaker 2:Didn't last very long, though, because I retired from playing in 2013 and I started reffing in 2014. So there wasn't too much of a break, but, yeah, actually getting into this again. Like I said, I'm obsessed with rugby, so it was a way for me to still be a part of it, but to not have that. You know, the tackle component, the team training just a different challenge in the game, because I felt like I'd done everything and as much as it was on a relatively small scale. You know, back then I felt like I ticked a lot of boxes. I played in the sevens world cup, a 15s world cup, and I was like cool, this is, this is great, like, um, you know what's next, what's the next challenge? And that was refereeing, trying to understand this game.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, even more than I already did I thought I knew everything as a player, of course, um, but once I picked up the whistle, um, a completely different uh situation, um, and, and it was actually quite tough, like the first. You think, I know this game, I know rugby, and I started reffing a couple of games and I was like, oh, it's actually really tough and I don't know if this is for me. I was like no, no, I challenged myself to do this and I'm, and I'm it, and I'm going to see how far I can go.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, there I am really, yeah, amazing and how far you've gone and like all that you've achieved as a player and then in refereeing. It's really extraordinary and, I think, very inspiring for a lot of us to see. Was there anyone who was particularly supportive of you on your journey through all of that?
Speaker 2:anyone who was particularly supportive of you on your journey through all of that. Yeah, I think I had a couple of people obviously you know family friends, things like that in your playing career. But along my playing career there was a couple of people that had said, mentioned maybe reffing for me. So it was, say, rasta Rasivangan. I remember he caught me in the Dubai Sevens and he said, oh, you know what about reffing? And Nwengile Jadizwene is on the panels at the moment and he was reffing me when I was playing for Martis back in Senebos and he was like, oh, you know, maybe what about reffing? And just a couple of people along the way who just whispered it. And so it's always kind of been there. And I think, growing up watching the game, I did always notice the referees. I really looked up to your Craig Gerber, your Mark Lawrence, your Topa Hennings like you know, strong South African referees, always calm and in control, and I, yeah, I just had a lot of respect for them and I just thought that's something I want to take on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just had a lot of respect for them and I just thought, uh, that's something I want to take on right. I wonder because, because I'm obviously very aware of referees when I watch matches as well and I wonder is it a particularly autistic thing to be aware of the person who's sort of in charge of the rules of the law?
Speaker 2:I think so because, like I speak to a lot of my friends and they're like you don't we don't know, just a referee but only since you've started becoming a referee or you've been a referee.
Speaker 2:Now we watch you, now we watch referees and wow, like you guys run so much. Wow, you, you're doing this, oh you're doing that, and it must be hard work and, um, yeah, I mean even in a relatively small scale. In my friendship group they've started to notice it, but for me that was like number one. I was like this guy oh, he's blowing that ball. What is that law in the law book? Okay, um, you know, but in this is it consistent to this decision?
Speaker 1:and you know, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there's something in that what do you feel has been sort of the the biggest moment so far in in your either your your player career or your refereeing career?
Speaker 2:I'm very fortunate to say there's been quite a few and for different reasons. So, like if I I look at the 2017 World Cup, that for me like coming back as a referee, having played in the 2010. I was like, wow, this is like a full circle moment and I'm still involved in the game. We're growing the game and it's amazing to be a part of and be on the field with these incredible players. Rio Olympics for me absolutely massive and just like a life achievement moment because you know you grow up and if you're sporty like you look up to the Olympics thinking you know that is the pinnacle of sport and you know to be able to have ref there was was still like I still have to remind myself like, oh my gosh, like I did actually ref at the at the olympic games. You know, like it's still still massive for me.
Speaker 2:But I think the biggest thing that sticks with me at the moment it makes me so excited for this year and the women's world cup is the um england france game uh, in 2023 in the women's six nations. And we're at twickenham and it was the biggest crowd we ever had. It was 58 000 people and I just just like running out to that stadium and I was like now this is women's rugby, you know, this is showing the world that the demand is there, the passion is there, people love the game. It's an incredible spectacle and it just made me so excited because I've been in the game for so long, when it has been so small, so under-supported, under-resourced. It's not professional yet, but oh, we're getting there, we've got these great ideas, but oh, we're putting our money where our mouth is. And that, for me, was a moment of like yes, yes, we are headed in that right direction, you know and it feels almost like it's sort of snowballing, doesn't it like?
Speaker 1:it feels like it's still growing very much massively, like exponentially.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean looking to say even this uh, this year, six nations, I I'm I'm pretty sure they're gonna bypass that number. And you know, looking at the Cup, I wouldn't be surprised if we sell out the World Cup or sell out Trichodon for the final. You know, 80, what's it? 82,000 people. But I would not be surprised. It's very exciting.
Speaker 1:If we were allowed to gamble.
Speaker 2:If we were allowed to gamble, I would bet that we would sell out the final with the Rugby World Cup.
Speaker 1:I agree, definitely. Um, and then we mentioned your, your autism diagnosis. How did you feel when you got your diagnosis? Because it can be quite a roller coaster for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, and I, the first thing, a massive relief. Like I was just like, oh, thank you. Like there's a reason for like being different, for, for, yeah, uh, not in a negative way, but just just the small things that that I see are different to people, and the way I think and the way I navigate relationships with people, the way I experience certain things that, yeah, whether it be in a rugby capacity, whether it be in my personal life, I was like, oh, I get it now and I, the more I start I'm definitely still learning, but the more I understand it, the more I can plan ahead and and put in, say, mechanisms that just make things a lot smoother. Um, so it was really, uh, really good in that way. Then I probably hit it like, like the, maybe where the rest of the world is also a big generalization but of uh, um, like, oh, oh, no, like, does that? Is it a negative thing? Is it a? Is it going to hold me back? Um, is it gonna? Are people going to judge me for it? Yeah, so I realized, like in the, in being public about it, in talking about it, I want to help educate people as much as I'm going on this journey, like I want to share it with people, to be like, no, no, it's not something that holds me back. It actually makes me a really good referee.
Speaker 2:So, and I'm pretty convinced I'm not the only one, you know, that has some of these traits in the world. So it's actually really beneficial and I think a lot of the things that would you know, that might throw off neurotypical people actually really, you know, puts me ahead of the pack in some ways. So, yeah, it's definitely, like you say, a roller coaster. It definitely has its negative moments and I think, even when I spoke publicly for the first time about it last year at the end of last year during the podcast amazing, because I mean, the girls were amazing, it was um, received really well, it's marketed really well, it was um, they did a really good job of it.
Speaker 2:But I I remember going home that night and be like, oh, like geez, like geez. What are the players going to think now, you know, because it'll be new for them Like, are they going to change their perception of me? Like we generally have a positive relationship? I'd like to think although I'm sure the referee is never anyone's favorite person, which is still like a tough thing for me to manage. But you know, does that change for any of the players? And I haven't seen anyone yet? We'll see them for the first time at Six Nations and we'll go from there. But I'd like to think that, especially the women's group, they're so open, they're so accepting. I don't think I'm going to have any issues at all, which is great, and I hope it encourages other people that, whether they're neurodivergent, whether anything's different to the norm, um, you know that they're just confident and comfortable to talk about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's such a gift to see someone sort of living as themselves, and I think that that makes a massive difference to people, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely yeah but yeah, I can definitely relate to that, that feeling of it being a roller coaster and sort of feeling in myself, oh, this makes sense, I'm happier with this knowledge. But then kind of going, okay, what does it mean for everyone else now? And having to sort of think about navigating that.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's, it's a tricky, it's almost the anxiety for me, anyway, was a bigger deal than people's actual reactions yeah, yeah, very much so, um, but it's, yeah, every day is different, everything is new and we just learn as we go and um, yeah, so far, so good yeah, that sort of made me wonder about you as sort of a younger person.
Speaker 1:You obviously weren't diagnosed when you were younger, but you were clearly very, very driven. So what were you? How would you describe yourself as a younger person?
Speaker 2:Yeah, driven definitely Definitely comes up at the top. I'd say it's always like determined driven. Some people like to say stubborn, but I kind of keep it on the positive side and I just always knew what I wanted in my head and, um, um, yeah, there's probably. You probably always do you feel like a bit of an outsider, because you've not an outsider, you just you. I didn't quite understand social situations and don't get me wrong, like I had friends and, um, you know, everything maybe seemed okay from the outset. I was maybe a bit more introverted than, and other people gave me a bit more on the shy side of things, um, and I just always, like I was always saying I was like I don't, I don't understand, I don't understand how you've, how that's worked in that friendship or that connection or how to communicate. How does it come so naturally to people? And it gives me like making notes of how to make a good conversation with people.
Speaker 2:You know, like on that side of it was quite tough, but I think a lot of that was internal and people didn't really know the struggles and then, because you don't really know, back then you just think, well, I'm just a socially awkward person and that and that's just what it is, and and, but. Then that plays into a bigger thing of. You know, I'm not as good or you know, am I. You know you constantly comparing because you constantly overthinking everything. So it was probably tough, quite tough, growing up in my own head, but if I look back now it's because of that. It made me even more driven to succeed. So you know, like I'm not even I'm not upset about any of that Maybe I wish I understood it a bit better. That's a bit about any of that. Maybe I wish I understood it a bit better. That was a bit more accepting of myself. But yeah, I think it pushes me into a different level of drive to represent on the world stage in a sport that I love.
Speaker 1:That's an amazing response. I think Not everyone has that response.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good. Now, back then a 14, 15 year old, yeah, it was tougher, but you know that's um luckily come out the other side and unfortunately I know this there's other people that don't necessarily come out the other side or um, you know they get stuck in a darker place. So, um, I'm fortunate I've it's. It's turned out this way for me.
Speaker 1:Amazing. And then are there elements of being autistic that you think are particularly beneficial to refer in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely the really strong sense of justice you know, and people, yeah, I say they'll make jokes of it when I'm here because, like, if you do things, whether it's, yeah, I would say, driving, because we should always follow the rules when driving but you know, like the, the small things in life where, well, no one's watching, I could just do this. I'm like, no, no, but the rules say this and this is what I, this is what I need to do. So, um, uh, that's so like it's just helps me so much on the field because that's, I'm just going for fairness, I'm going for justice, like that is that is the most balanced mindset for the game, as opposed to, yeah, uh, I actually don't know what other people, other refs, think, because I can only think in justice and fairness and I'd like to think that they think the same as well, but it's maybe not as not such a strong feeling for me. Um, yeah, and just, uh, I think I think, yeah, following laws, strong sense of justice, being fair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think on the communication side, it's sometimes a pro, sometimes a con, like, sometimes I am just because I don't get emotional about things. I will just deliver it to you in, say, normal, everyday language. Like this is my tone, this is how I deal with you on the field, and I find players are really responsive to that as well. Um, as opposed to, things are getting intense. You get intense as well, and it and it, you know, and I've, yeah, uh, the passions rise on both sides. But I find if I, if I stay at my level, players will generally come down to my level as well.
Speaker 1:Um, because, and that, helps that there are some iconic clips of you communicating with players, so you're so clear and so calm and you kind of leave them with no choice but to go. Okay, that makes sense, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, and it's crazy to think of those moments because I definitely didn't think that it's.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful, yeah, and it's crazy to think of those moments because I definitely didn't think that it would be, you know, as big as it, as it turned out, but at the same time, I'm glad it's brings the human side to it. I'm glad it brings the, say, the Amy side to it of just me being my authentic self. And, yeah, it is a bit different and, um, yeah, but it is, it is me and that's that's me being me and it's it's just my, my work on in games that I I'm, I'm balancing the law and rugby terminology with being my authentic self, um, you know, being that human being but still being a messenger of the law to keep to keep the values in the game, to keep the laws across the, you know, keep it consistent. Um, but I enjoy, I enjoy being myself because I'm really enjoying myself on, you know, being on the field.
Speaker 1:So, um, I'm glad it comes across and I'm glad the the response was so positive absolutely yeah, and one thing that I find really fascinating is the sort of the sensory side of rugby, because I think people would assume that autistic folk would be quite uncomfortable with the setting of a rugby match, let alone being the person in the middle that everyone is running, and particularly, I think, south African rugby. There's so much going on and it's so grand and adored by people and there's cheerleaders and like a kid's zone and all sorts of things going on. How do you manage that sort of sensory experience?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think from the outside it, I don't know, it doesn't make logical sense because I'm just like, how do I not find that overwhelming? But when I'm there, it's my, I'm in my happy place and it's like you say, south Africans, we do do it probably. There's there's kids on water slides, like in the tri-area. There's, you know, the fireworks, there's the impi zulu that comes out, the warrior, um, you know, uh, we do that. There's a really big general um spectator, um support. There's numbers that come to the game. I mean my game now in the in december shark stormers. They were at capacity, you know, it's over 50 000 people uh, at a match.
Speaker 2:So we do it properly and we love it and, um, I think there's certainly moments where it doesn't go well, um, in the way that. So we have um like earpieces that we wear with radio packs and it's quite like complicated. The vest that we wear and sometimes, like the vest drives me absolutely crazy, like if it's, if it's, if I go to a different country and it's not a nice, it's not a comfortable setup. If it's too tight, if there's too many country, and it's not a nice, it's not a comfortable setup. If it's too tight, if it's too many straps, if there's anything like you know, things like that, I'm just like this is not going to work. So I probably do have to manage myself in moments like that and I find other ways, like I've got my own base now and I, you know, tailor my own things and we try and make it work in the best way possible. But once you put it all down, you've got your TMO, your ARs talking to you, you've got the subcontroller, you've got the timekeeper, then you've got, obviously, managing all the players on the field, you've got the crowd. It should be completely overwhelming.
Speaker 2:And yeah, when I'm being myself, when I'm, when I'm being authentically aiming on the field, enjoying the game like it's, it's a wonderful place to be and it's just this like whirlwind of of chaos but at the same time, the best chaos that there is. And I but I know that if I'm uh saying maybe overly stressed, or if I've, say had a really busy week where I haven't been able to maybe follow my routines or or do certain things, sometimes I'm say operating on a slightly higher stress level, uh, then it can, it can get to me like it's. It's certainly not a perfect science, but I I've learned over the years that I know that that's my happy place. So, hey, let's run and enjoy it Like smile, because it is amazing and there's certainly I do in my general match routine, I force myself to stop and you'll see me sometimes if people watch me riffing like I'll play with my whistle. That's just me connecting to be like this is me, this is my whistle, I'm reffing this incredible game. I force myself to look up into the crowd and be like, oh my gosh, this is amazing and it's just. I just find that helpful to then reconnect to me, reconnect to the game, reconnect. Bring it back to me, amy reffing this game, not, uh, this clip.
Speaker 2:This coach said this. This spectator said this. This happened on social media. No, like none of that. Clear your mind. This is exactly where you want to be. So, um, yeah amazing.
Speaker 1:Wow, what a useful tool to be able to have that and to know that you can kind of bring yourself back with that.
Speaker 2:That's gorgeous something tactile something, because we all know it. But it's hard when you, if you're in that headspace or you're not in the right headspace, it's hard to just like flick the switch. So yeah, we've been working on a couple of things that are tactile, physical, um moments where I can just stop and reconnect in it and it works.
Speaker 1:Amazing. That's brilliant. Um, and with the, the work that I do with middletown, we've been working with the irfu um to develop sort of training and sort of support players in particular who are autistic, um, and some of the things that that we've been told have been sort of around, the sort of sensory changes that would be made or even sort of communication changes that that could be made to sort of make things a little bit more easy for players and make them a little bit more comfortable. Are there things that you'd like to see changed in relation to the the world of rugby?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, that's a good question. I probably think, like, for me, getting to a stadium, um, there's more from a, say, a reffing perspective, it's just or you could do it interplay as well, like team. What's the best change in etiquette that can help you connect or stay calm or stay in your zone? And I think's a personal experience I know that, uh, we're getting to say a test match and, um, we love all the guys, like all the subcontrollers and the um timekeepers, the people at the table, like they're all wonderful people and they everyone gets so excited for the test match, which is 100. I'm exactly the same. But then there's just a moment to like, say, building up to the game, say about 45 minutes out, where I'll just ask people to in this time. Is it possible that we can just kind of just be me and the assistant referees and I'll play my music on my speaker and we can just keep it simple in the changing, like just to have that pause moment, like, hey, amy, what works best for you in the changing room? And it'll be the same for the players as well, because the mindset that you run out of the tunnel in has a big impact on your game. So it's.
Speaker 2:You know, even from a playing perspective, do we need to give you an extra bit of space in the changing room where you can just have all your stuff set out? You know, we're not. I'm not asking to be a princess or not Like I've. I've made it this far with with everything that's been given to me and everything I've done. I can make anything work. But I'm just thinking. I know what it's like.
Speaker 2:It's quite nice to have my space, is it? Is it reasonable to request that? Is it? You know, as a player, do you need a corner space that you can feel a little bit more blocked off? Yeah, yeah, uh, these smaller things. Um, how comfortable is the kit? Can we tailor your kit to not have a scratchy collar? Uh, you know, and these are like super, super small things, but in my world it makes a big difference where you know to say other people on the team, they'll be like oh, that's such a small thing, it's easy enough to fix, you know, and not asking for drastic changes, it's just small things and it's a everyone's different as well. So maybe some people need something different and you know, just ask, let's ask, and it can be not necessarily directed to the autistic people on the team. It can be to everyone and let's be considerate of everyone and see what the best game plan is for everyone to go out into the field. You know whatever we can can change. There's often very small changes that can make a big difference. That's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is almost always tiny little tweaks to things, if you don't even necessarily notice, but they can make such a difference to the individual. And, as you say, I think, that idea of everyone taking time to think about when they actually feel comfortable and what works for them and what doesn't, because everyone has a different sensory profile, you know, it's something that everyone needs to explore and figure out, I think, and it's so beneficial to everyone that, yeah, really, really interesting, yeah, um, and then is there advice that you'd give to adults who are working with younger autistic folk, or older autistic any autistic folk um, to just sort of support them, to support the people that they're they're working with, or yeah, I think, um, one of the things for me is, if I don't understand something, I'm going to keep asking questions and I and, and it's not uh, it's not to challenge authority, it's not uh, you know.
Speaker 2:So it's just that understanding of sometimes I, um, people, players, especially younger players, they might ask a question because they want to understand, as opposed to they're challenging. Why are you saying, do this at this time? I'm not like no, no, I, I want to do that. Why, if I can understand it, I'll do it for you every single day of the week. Um, so, just a, like a, an engaging or an open mindset to players who may have questions, or, at the same time, um, I know I was too shy to ask the question sometimes, so there could, there could be a moment that maybe we, you can explain the good term and people can start um. And then there's a moment where it's hey, emmy, um, do you have any questions about this? Hey, I, um, you know, can I explain this in a different way? Can I? You know how can I? Again, we're not asking for special treatment, but it's just a, just a, an extra thought um to.
Speaker 2:It's going to take 15 more seconds for me to demonstrate this as opposed to say it, because, uh say, auditory processing uh isn't as quick or it gets confusing, but if you show me, ah, snapped it and I'm, and I'm straight back into the grid. So it's just, uh, yeah, so I'm trying to uh give people options, um, and and keep an open mindset as to, uh, when people do engage, do, challenge, do, yeah. I'm sure there's many more examples. That's probably those are the personal things to me where sometimes, um, I know I rubbed coaches the wrong way because I just I was like I'm not doing this because I don't understand why this doesn't make sense, because the law says this, uh, oh, but you want me to do it because, yeah, okay, then I'll do it you know, yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And then is there advice that, if you could, you'd go back and give to little Amy um, advice, what don't change anything like stay driven, stay determined.
Speaker 2:Um, as much as, uh say, other people say, lose their motivation on the way, because you know life happens, studies happen, work happens. You know things like that. If you, if you want it as much as you want it now, just keep doing it and don't feel bad for that. Um, as I said, yeah, don't feel bad for, feel bad for having the dreams and then living the dream and doing everything you can possibly to achieve the dream. Yeah, and I'd also say, like, stop comparing yourself to others.
Speaker 2:I wish I and it's probably still a work on as an adult, but I'd often compare myself to friends and I'd be like, okay, this person is an incredible communicator, I will try and I'm not. And then you feel bad about it and it just like cycles. It's actually, they are a great communicator. What can I learn from this and can I make it into my own way, my own style, as opposed to overthinking? Well, I must be like them, uh, and then it's, and I tried to be like them and it's not natural, and you, you kind of get stuck. So you are, you like, you're a good human being and, yes, you do things differently, but, um, you can learn and grow and you don't have to be like anyone else, and and don't apologize for being amy, because amy's awesome thanks so much for listening to the podcast.
Speaker 1:This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. The views expressed in these chats may not always be the view of meddletown Centre. If you'd like to know more about Middletown, you can find us on X at Autism Centre and Facebook and Instagram at Middletown Centre for Autism. Go easy until next time.