The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
The Middletown Podcast features interviews with leading thinkers and practitioners across the autistic and autism community. Conversations are autism-affirming and neurodiversity-informed with a focus on the lived experience and knowledge of our community. Episodes highlight issues impacting autistic people and we share ideas for family members and school staff who are providing support.
The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
Maja Toudal – Energy Accounting
In our latest podcast, we speak to autistic psychologist and author, Maja Toudal. She has developed Energy Accounting, a system to help manage anxiety and support good mental health.
You can find out more about Maja’s book, click here
Maja is a keynote speaker at the upcoming Autism Europe Congress in Dublin this September. You can find out more, click here
Welcome to the Middletown Podcast. I'm Cat Hughes and we're a searcher at Middletown, and I'm also autistic. In this episode, I chat to Maya Tuchel, advocate, author and psychologist. Lots of you likely know Maya from Energy Accounting, the brilliant strategy that she developed to support autistic people to manage anxiety and understand themselves. We talk about how she initially developed Energy Accounting around her own needs and how it's since developed into a strategy being used all over the world and now she's co-written a book called Energy Accounting. In this episode, we do touch on some heavy topics around mental health, so check with yourself if that's something that you want to listen to today. I loved my conversation with Maya. She's so thoughtful and compassionate and also really practical in her approach to understanding and supporting autistic experience. I hope you enjoy our chat. Well, maya, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and I wanted to start by asking how do you describe energy accounting?
Speaker 2:Energy accounting to me is just a different way of thinking about stress levels. So it's for me it's like trying to make things that are actually very vague, very concrete. So for for me, it started out just being like, if, if I can structure a budget, why can't I, like control my energy levels, like, why, why can't I continuously assess them and and work with what I've got, the way that I can with my finances, and so um and so that's. That's actually. The essence of it really is just that um, so it's, it's getting getting concrete and getting structural and yeah and then so you mentioned kind of reflecting on your own experience, was that where the idea came from.
Speaker 1:It was sort of, yeah, realized it was something that you needed well, yeah it, my um.
Speaker 2:My beginning with all of this is is a bit wonky, um, I don't always remember very linearly, but um, basically I was. I was diagnosed, uh, with asperger's syndrome, um, because it's it's under the icd-10 diagnostic system. Um, I was diagnosed at 16, um, so that's a bit over 20 years ago, um, and then later on I was diagnosed also with an attention disorder and anxiety, depression stuff. I had been struggling throughout school with depression and anxiety and I know now that I was actually trying constantly to stave off chronic burnout, like that's what I was doing throughout school, chronic burnout, like that's what I was doing throughout school. And I stopped, like I, in Denmark we've got up until 10th grade and then you can do in Denmark we call it gymnasium, but it's actually like um high school plus type thing, like it's pre-university um, and I didn't do that because I was just done with school, I didn't want to do it, it was too hard, it was too much, and so I, um, I just kind of tried doing my own thing for a while, um, and I ended up actually, my, my mother applied for disability for me because she could see that I I wasn't doing well, and the municipality agreed. Like there's just no hope there, um, um, so I was, I was placed on disability and then, out of nowhere, my my psychologist, um, kirsten Callison.
Speaker 2:Um, our relationship kind of changed. Like she started out as my psychologist and then she was like, well, you don't actually need therapy, you just kind of need an adult around to kind of give you a little bit of guidance sometimes. And then she hired me as as a nanny for her daughter, so I would pick up her, her kid, from school and, you know, take her to ballet practice and whatnot, and then then I'd have dinner with, with the family, um, and then she started bringing me out to do presentations, um, for parents. And it was. It was after one of those presentations that she she was dropping me off at a train station and she said you should be a psychologist. And like my head went in several directions, like my mind was completely torn between, oh, my god, there's someone that believes that there's something I can contribute with, like she sees actual genuine qualities in me, and that that like sense of you know, wow, you know, um.
Speaker 2:But the second thing that happened in my mind was, oh shit, now I have to go back to school, and I'm sorry for swearing, but like it was, it was like there's no, there's no gentler way to really express that. Um, I was, I was so panicked about how am I going to? You know, because I I would have to go through, um, some version of that, uh, high school, pre-university thing, and then I would have to go through university in order to become a psychologist, and I just thought that's, that's impossible. Like Elementary school very nearly killed me, and so it's. It's actually there that I really started to think, well, how am I going to survive school?
Speaker 2:That was, that was the beginning of energy accounting, of energy accounting, and I, I was in such a bad place mentally, recovering from suicidal ideation, um, recovering from years and years and years of burnout, um, and I just thought, you know, okay, I'm going to have to find some way, because I knew that it was important. I knew right away when she said it that she was right. I was terrified of it, but she was right. And so it's like, okay, now I've got this mission in life, how am I going to do? It was terrified of it, but she was right. And so it's like, okay, now I've got this mission in life, how am I going to do it?
Speaker 2:Um, and so, yeah, that was kind of when I started thinking about, okay, well, how do I do stress management, um, and what's actually out there and what I found, or parents, um, and again, this is this is, you know, very nearly 20 years ago, so it's it's it's a long time ago, but, um, I just had that sense of like this wasn't created with with my way of thinking um in mind.
Speaker 2:It it's, it's coming from somewhere else, um, and and it's not that what was there was wrong, it's just that it didn't fit me. So I had to start creating my own versions of everything that I found, um, and bits and pieces made sense and lots of other things didn't, and I kind of just started mixing and matching knowledge and methods and strategies and being like, okay, well, how can I, how can I create a framework that works for me? Um, so, yeah, it took a long time, yeah, it took years, but then I then I had something, um, and then, as you know, I, I, I work with Tony Atwood, um, and I knew him then already and through Kirsten, through my, my psychologist, um, and he invited me to to come to australia to observe his work, um, and I went there for a month and I told him about energy accounting then and he was like this, this just makes sense. And he started using that clinically right away.
Speaker 1:You know with me, and since then we've been working on refining it and you know, yeah doesn't it show you the power of being seen and someone really taking the time to see you as the individual that you are?
Speaker 2:and both Kirsten and Tony seem to have done that, yeah, and that's helped you to sort of find your your path within all that yeah, I mean I, I definitely I can name maybe a handful of people in my life that, if I didn't have them, I know where my life would be right now, and it wouldn't have been a life that I wanted to live without those people.
Speaker 2:Because without having people around us who see us, who accept us, who talk into our strengths and respect our challenges at the same time, you know, we are in a very difficult world, and we're definitely in a world that doesn't fit a lot of neurodivergent people, and so we meet lots of challenges and we tend to end up in places with our mental health, that is is.
Speaker 2:You know, it's, it's struggling, it's there's. There's a reason, though those um challenges are much higher amongst neurodivergent people, um, and it's. It's not because we are weaker in some way, it's because we grow up being told we're wrong and that we don't belong, and that we need to fundamentally change who we are in order to be accepted and and so, without having those people who tell you that no, you're actually good the way you are, you are a wonderful human being, you have amazing qualities, you are loved, you belong, and who provide that sense of community, without those people we are very vulnerable and with those people we are well in a much better place. I mean, we're're human, we're human and humans are social beings. We are a pack animal.
Speaker 1:We need our pack absolutely and yeah, and I I very much relate to, to your whole journey of through not being able to cope with the school experience at all and sort of stepping away from education the moment I could, but then wanting to be a psychologist and going, oh no, how do I deal with this? So, yeah, it's a very relatable journey for me in particular, I think. For me in particular, I think. But, um, yeah, then trying to sort of figure out how you might fit yourself into a way of working, and you're given all of this information about what is good practice and you know, what should what most people do in terms of sort of getting through education and for me it certainly didn't fit at all and it was a matter of figuring out what worked for me. So, I love, you've developed something that so many people can potentially take from. And I suppose that that's my next question who do you think energy accounting can really work for?
Speaker 2:well, that's the thing I mean.
Speaker 2:Anyone who enjoys working in a structural, concrete, visual way, anyone who prefers that over talky-talky, feely-feely. You know, and it's not that I'm saying that talking and feeling is bad, because that's still a part of it we really can't avoid those, those parts of stress management, because if we don't talk and we don't take the time to, to practice at paying attention to our signals from from our body, body, then then we end up in trouble. Um, but it's, it's taking that and making it concrete and making it structured and making it something that, um, something that is is slightly less vague. It's giving you that framework and and if, if you're someone who enjoys having a framework, regardless of whether you're autistic, adhd, I mean neurotypical anyone, it's not. I don't find that this is something that is exclusively for a specific neurotype or a specific set of challenges than you know if, if you're dealing with stress slash, burnout, anxiety, depression, if you're dealing with mental health challenges that maybe come and go in waves, this is probably a good thing to pick up that's definitely in.
Speaker 1:I know I heard you speak first a long time ago and instantly it was like, oh, I've taken that. It's really helpful. So for me, where I kind of started and I know it's something that that you kind of talked about sort of an an early stage of getting into the idea of energy accounting and is impacting on their energy levels and where they might need to sort of adapt things.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's very different um and in in lots of ways, um. And this is really where, um, where I find that often people benefit from having someone with them when they're working with energy accounting. It doesn't have to be a professional, but just it's beneficial, because sometimes we know, oh, this gives me a bad feeling, or this gives me a good feeling, or oh, when I do this, I get really tired afterwards. But what I find is that some people have hypersensitivity to their bodily signals and some have hyposensitivity, that is, quite lower sensitivity to their bodily signals of anxiety, of stress, etc. Um, and if, if you, if you can't tell what your body is telling you, then you're more likely to have, maybe, sudden outbursts that you don't know where they came from, or sudden shutdowns, and you're like, well, I don't know why that happens. That just happens sometimes. Well, no, it happens for a reason sometimes. Well, no, it happens for a reason. It's. It's not just something happens because we are I mean, human beings are very weird and very mysterious, but we're also not. I mean there's, there's a reason for everything. So, um, it's.
Speaker 2:If it's hard for you to to feel those signals, then a part of energy accounting is actually talking about? What are the bodily signals of xyz emotions, um? What are early signs of stress? What are later signs of stress, acutely and over longer periods of time? How do we notice them? And do we have maybe other people around us that can help us notice them?
Speaker 2:Because sometimes, um, sometimes, other people see what we can't, and this even goes for, you know, there are some people who can't feel themselves, but they're very good at telling how others feel and what other people are going through, you know, um, so it doesn't even have to be that, oh, if you can't feel the feel yourself, then you, then you, then you don't have any empathy, or then then you won't be able to to understand what other people are going through. No, no, no, um, because it can, it can really be boxes in our minds that, like you've learned not to feel yourself at some point and so you can't, but you can read others, um, and so, even if you have two autistic people who have poor interoception they may be, they may very well be able to tell what each other are going through and be able to say, oh, you're feeling stressed today, and the other one will be like I am, I feeling I don't, I didn't know that what you mean, and vice versa, um, so it's, it's really.
Speaker 2:It's really about finding finding those ways of um, of helping each other out and and recognizing that some things you may be very good at knowing yourself, some things you may need help with, and sometimes it doesn't make sense, what's what? And it doesn't have to, that's fine, it doesn't have to make sense, you know it's. It's. It's kind of that same example with like, why can you not tie your shoes? But you can do, you know, like quantum physics, like what, how do those two things work together? Well, they don't, and they don't have to, because they're two entirely different skill sets. And so it's the same thing with with this it's like and then the interesting is sometimes, sometimes some people that you would expect to perhaps not be very good at knowing what is impacting them, they're actually very good at it.
Speaker 2:If you ask them, the right way and especially I find it with children is that their parents will be like oh well, they might not really be very good at talking about this, and then we start talking about, well, what gives and costs energy, how much, and they'll be like, well, you may have to guide the conversation a little bit and be like, well, what, what about when this happens? How do you feel then? Or how do you respond? Or, um, what kind of happens when this happens? Like um, but then when you ask them to put a number on it, they're like, oh, I, I know exactly, and they'll just, they'll just know, and it's. It's actually often easier for the people who don't think too much about what their answers are. People who are extremely reflected tend to have, you know, a slower way of working with energy accounting, which is also perfectly fine and really a good way of working, because it means that everything that you write down is is going to be very well reflected. But those people that just blurt out an answer, it's like, okay, good, and usually their gut is right that's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so interesting because I am most definitely one of the people who over reflect. So I have for years had what I call my day book and I will sort of record everything that I'm doing in my day book, purely so that I can sort of have a document of what wrecked me in the day and what didn't, because I still don't necessarily instinctively know those things and I certainly don't feel them until I'm like way past threshold. But to have a document of it is really, really, really helpful. Yeah, but yeah, the people who instinctively know are so fascinating to me. I would love to have that magic for a day.
Speaker 2:I mean it's fun. It's fun to watch that happen sometimes. And also, I mean I don't want to pressure people into doing that kind of daily recording every day. That's not, that's just a lot of work, it's more so. You know, getting to know yourself and getting to know, okay, you know, my morning routine consists of all of these bits and pieces, but altogether it usually takes up this kind of amount of energy. Yeah, takes up this kind of amount of energy. Yeah, um, and the same thing for school and the same thing for, you know, all of the other things that that you usually do in a day or in a week. And then from that you have kind of a template of what your week looks like. And okay, well, then let's work with that. And if there are changes from what's usually happening, then we can record those. Then we can talk about what did that do, um, and and then also, of course, if the week doesn't work the way it is, then what do we need to change?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's, it's. It's so fascinating and so very helpful. I think, um, and you describe, uh, an energy bank, so can you explain what that is and then what might typically for people count as a withdrawal or a deposit into that energy bank?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, obviously people are very different, but so the energy bank is the concept that I usually start with, which is is the very kind of clean cut what gives you energy? What? What costs energy for you, um, and for for autistic people? One of the big ones on the costing energy side is socializing. Or it's anxiety, or it's unpredictability, it's plans changing, or it can just be changes from a location or a task to another one, like things like that tend to be on the higher cost for autistic people. And then, of course, if there's any um, any trauma or um, you know, additional um, health complications, things like that, like if you have, say, chronic pain, that's going to be on there, um, and then, on on the plus side, on what gives you energy, um, that is usually things like your um, your passions, you know your, your special interests or or whatever we want to call them, um, um, it's it's those things that that put you in in a state of flow.
Speaker 2:Very often it's it's those things where you forget your sense of time and and place, um, but those things can also be a bit tricky, because if you are forgetting time and place, then you also often forget about you know eating, drinking, you know, hygiene, lots of things like can go really wrong if you're spending too much time in that box, and then it's very often, you know, spending time with animals, which is is that's a fun one for me, because socializing it's like okay, if you're with humans that's difficult, but if you're with a dog or a cat or a bird or a turtle, then that gives you energy. Um, and I think it's just that, you know, socializing with humans is so complex and so fast-paced and there's all of these, um, hidden expectations that we're constantly trying to figure out, and so the mental load of being with humans is so much higher, whereas an animal is just gonna be direct. Yeah, an animal doesn't lie, doesn't conceal its emotions, doesn't? Um, I mean, I'm not gonna say that that a dog or a cat can't try to manipulate you, but it's usually pretty obvious, um, it's, it's refreshingly simple, yeah, um, and and that, um, I I think we enjoy the authenticity of animals and I think that's why it's usually on the plus side.
Speaker 2:Um, and then there can be things like, um, positive sensory sensitivities, like, because we're always talking about the negative ones, we're also we're always talking about the things that hurt or that, um, stress us out in some way, um, but we also have positive social sensory sensitivities. We have those things where, oh, I love that sound or that texture or that um fabric or that color or you know. There there are really things that, um, that if, if we take care of our sensory environment, that can actually add energy to our overall day. Yeah, so that's that's kind of the energy bank is, is figuring out what is on either of those columns, and sometimes it's difficult to place things, and that's perfectly fine, um, and and that's also where, like when I started energy accounting, I started with the energy bank concept and then from there, I think it was a couple of months or something, and I was like this isn't enough.
Speaker 2:It's not, you know it's, it's nice and simple to work with and I like that, but it doesn't cover the complexity of what my energy is actually doing. So it's a very good starting point and for starting to talk about, what are your bodily signals of a major stress factor in your day? You know, um, when you're hit with unpredictability, um, surprise happens, um, or you know a train is late or whatever. Like when you're hit with those things, how do you react? Right and and talking about it's great for that, but then when we have to start talking proactive stress management, we need to move a bit further yeah, yeah, it's and it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's a really joyful place for people to start as well. Potentially, isn't it because it is about discovering, as you say, it's the positives as much as it is very difficult. So it's about sort of exploring the things that really bring you joy and comfort, and what a lovely thing to be able to do, and to be able to do that with someone else, I think is really lovely too yeah, and I think it's actually important to have someone else with you for it, because people are very good.
Speaker 2:Our brains human brains have a negative bias. We're very good at noticing bad things and we're very good at remembering bad things, and it's a, it's a brilliant evolutionary mechanism to have because we need to remember. You know, don't eat that plant, it's gonna make you sick, you know. We need to remember that. So it makes sense that our brains and our nervous systems are wired that way. But the consequence of that is that it's harder for us to recognize the good, the positive, the, the yummy feelings, the I like this.
Speaker 2:Um, and so, especially if you're someone who's dealing with chronic burnout or you're dealing with extreme anxiety, or maybe you have a chronic depression, you know, which is very often where people start, when they begin with energy accounting, they're in a very bad place with their mental health. They're often not very good at naming, you know, what gives me energy, what makes me feel good, because they don't remember what it's like to feel good or they don't notice the things that make them feel good or don't make them feel bad. Um, and so having someone with you to actually have that conversation is really important because we sometimes need someone to prompt us to think about the good um and otherwise, what happens sometimes is that you have a very, very long list on the minus side, very short list on the plus side and we want to fill out, you know, that plus side.
Speaker 1:We want to make sure that there's plenty to work with and sometimes that's difficult if you're, if you're by yourself and especially if you're going through depression or you know other other like mental health challenges of course, and then would you have advice, because a lot of our listeners are either parents or teachers, and would you have advice for for either of those who want to kind of support, um, young people who are sort of starting out on that journey? I think what you said is to be there with them and help them explore. That is so helpful. Definitely anything else that that you think.
Speaker 2:I think I think it's often really important to show young people that this is not something that we're doing with them, um, that it's not like, oh, oh, you're autistic or you have this other challenge, whatever it is. It's not because of you that energy accounting is a smart thing to do. Energy accounting actually also works for me as an adult. It's not something where you do it because you are in a bad place. It's something you do because it's just something that works.
Speaker 2:So I very often will tell parents especially if they have a kid who's like, not wanting to talk about mental health stuff, I'm like well, start using it for yourself, but do it openly and obviously and have the kid you know witness that you're doing it. Don't, don't drag them into it, just just allow them to see that you're doing a new thing and that it's actually kind of like it's not I'm not trying to make energy accounting cool, but but just that it's something normal and something that works, that it's not othering them again, because there are so many things that other us all day, every day, our whole lives. So having that sense of of normalcy, of this is just a, this is just a thing, it's not yeah, yeah, and is it something that's been used in a classroom setting?
Speaker 1:because I think that that could be a really lovely way for teachers to use it and sort of a way for young people to learn about the differences across minds as well.
Speaker 2:I mean I don't know. I don't know that she's done it in the classroom setting, but I know that she's done it with students. A colleague of mine of mine, cara Diamond she's a Canadian autistic teacher and university lecturer and whatnot, and I know that she talks to her students about energy accounting. But I don't, I don't know, actually, if she does it individually or if she does it in the classroom setting, but I, I would agree that it would be helpful, because it's also one of the ways to get kids to, or young people. I mean, it doesn't even have to any age group, but like getting people to talk about as a group.
Speaker 2:What is mental health? What is stress? What is, um? What is a stress symptom? What's a well-being symptom? Um, what's? What's something that's hard for me but not for someone else? What's something that easy for me but not for someone else? Um, and there's lots of ways of doing that, but I think energy accounting is definitely one of them. Yeah and um, I, I think it's. I think it makes sense to address energy accounting in the classroom. Um, with learning styles as well. You know, if you're given an academic problem to solve in a specific way, it's going to take much more energy than if it's presented in a different way very interesting.
Speaker 1:And then you mentioned that, that you worked with tony atwood and now you've come together to write a gorgeous book. And where did that come from?
Speaker 2:Well, that was actually back in 2014 when I told him about energy accounting and he started using it clinically and I think, the next time I saw him. So he comes to Denmark quite often, usually once a year or once every other year. He comes to Denmark and I kind of hijacked him. He's always very busy, like his calendar is always completely booked. But I was like I you know, is there an evening that you're free to go out for dinner? And I took him out to dinner and I was like well, tony, I have a proposition for you. I think we should write a book together.
Speaker 2:And in the beginning it was like well, you're using it clinically and I'm using it for myself. So I have the personal experience because I was still a student at the time using it for myself. So I have the personal experience because I was still a student at the time. Um, you know, I, I do presentations and all that, but I wasn't working clinically. So I thought we could be writing the book in in the sense that I would be telling about energy accounting from a, a personal journey kind of perspective and he could be adding the professional side, um, so that was the initial idea, um, but then, of course, it ended up with us just like going back and forth all the time and we ended up having monthly zoom conversations for the last I don't know five years or something.
Speaker 2:Um, because we kept developing energy accounting further and we it kept being like, no, this needs to be in the book as well. And we've we've actually not written this, um, we should do that. And then like, oh, but what if we frame it this way instead? And all of a sudden, you know, with the clinical testing and, um, he brought Michelle Garnett, like he introduced her to energy accounting as well, and they've been using it at the Minds and Hearts Clinic as well. So we just kept getting all of this information from how people were responding to it, and so it ended up taking 10 years to write the book. Well, not entirely, actually, because we spent a year arguing with, I say argue, but like discussing with the publisher that we wanted it printed in color.
Speaker 2:Because there's color coding in energy accounting, and we were like we need color. And they were saying, no, it's, it's expensive to print in color. And we were like, oh, but we know it's expensive, but do it anyway. And that took a year, um, so that was um, but it took a really long time, uh, to end up with the finished, with the finished text. And even then, uh, the publisher was like, well, the book is too long, we can't, we can't print all of this. The book is gonna, it's gonna cost, you know, way too much. People aren't gonna buy it.
Speaker 2:And so they told us to cut 70 pages. Actually, they tried to get us to cut a little bit more than that. We ended up being able to shorten the rest of the book in other ways, but we ended up having to take out 70 pages of material, and so that's available as downloadable material instead, because we didn't want to just chuck it because, I mean, it's important, so it's, it's there, but it's not in the book, which is really weird. But yeah, it, just, it just, you know, exploded from being this you know, can we write this little book where you explain the professional side of it and I'll explain the personal to it? Being a?
Speaker 1:huge project. Yeah, and what were you hoping that readers would get from the book as you were going through the process of writing it?
Speaker 2:so I mean several things. The first thing I want people to get from the book is that I I want them to feel affirmed. I want to give people the sense that it's okay that your brain and your nervous system is the way it is. Um, I'm not saying that we, we have to. Um, like you, start energy accounting when you're in burnout, when you're very depressed and such, and your nervous system is beaten down, it's broken and and there's a reason it is that way and it's not your fault. It's not something you've done, it's not something that that you should have done better, or you should have been more resilient, or no, no, no, no. There's a reason. It is where it is right now and that's okay in the sense that it's not your fault. Here's what we can do to make you feel better, rather than here's a way to make you fit back into the box that society wants you to fit in. I don't want you in that box. I want you where life is good for you, because that's where your nervous system heals, that's where you find joy, that's where you find the life that works for you. That's where I want to get people to, and so I wanted people to be able to pick up a book that was written, um, you know, by an autistic professional, um, and, and a professional who has profound love and respect for autistic people, um, and and. To have that affirmation that I am the way I'm supposed to be, affirmation that I am the way I'm supposed to be and I deserve to have a life that works for me. That's the first thing I want people to get from the book. The other thing, the other thing that I want people to get from the book is that I want them to have a way to begin the process of energy accounting, even if they can't do it by themselves the whole way, even if they maybe need a professional for some of that process. I want them to have a somewhat affordable start. You know, I want people to have a book that they can pick up and read and go through and use as much as they can use it on their own and that will have saved them hundreds of dollars or euros or pounds.
Speaker 2:On therapy, you know you might still have expenses in doing some of the therapy or doing some of the work with a support person, or you know there might still be expenses, but just this book will have saved you a lot of that. And so you know I, I, I would want, honestly, um in in my heart, I would want for this to be free, but I also need to live so it. You know, um, I, I just I want people to have that head start in their work. Um, because sometimes you approach a professional and it's like they have to start by even getting to know you a little bit, and yada, yada, yada, and then you have to go through a thousand different ways of working and then you find something that works for you. But if you can pick up a book and be like, well, this way of working works for me, and you can be like, hey, um therapist or caretaker, care worker, um support person, whatever, this works for me, can we do this, read this, help me do this? Um, and then I'm I'm looking at actually making a certification, um, like a, a coach certification for energy accounting for professionals, um, and I I know that that's not going to be relevant to everyone, but I I feel that a lot of professionals want to know that they've had training and using a method, want to know that they've had training and using a method and they want to have that step of approval to say that this, this is actually something I can do.
Speaker 2:I've I've shown that I can do this um, so I want to to be able to provide that. But also I want to be able to provide professionals with that extra layer of of introduction to energy accounting, because I mean, there was a limit to what we could fit in the book and there's just so much theory to know. There's so much um, there's so much that you only really get to know by working with examples, and so I'm I'm working on on putting that together so that eventually that will be available. I'm hoping to make it available as an online course, at least in part um, but I, yeah, I'm working on that.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, and that's what I love about energy accounting as an approach, because it's you've got the self-acceptance and the sort of understanding yourself as an individual and what works for you, combined with something that's really really practical, combined with something that's then evidence-based. So it's a lovely mix. That, I think, is often. You often don't have those three across those sorts of supports, so I think to have the three of them is really really beautiful. Um, you have, obviously, and a lot of work and into sort of sharing what has worked for you and trying to get that to as many people as possible, and I would love to know what it is that has made you want to do that.
Speaker 2:I think I just, you know, as an autistic person, as a neurodivergent person, I'm all ADHD. As a neurodivergent person, I'm, I'm all DHD. And you know, as I, as I mentioned in the beginning I've suffered, you know, throughout my childhood and my youth. I had a really rough start and I constantly see other neurodivergent people and their parents and I see how much suffering is out there. I see how many people don't find that affirmation in society or that they somehow need to hold themselves up by their bootstraps, walk it off. You know that whole way of being. I feel constantly slapped in the face by the way we talk about mental health and the way we talk about differences, and I want to be able to alleviate as much suffering as I can and I know that, for me, having the people around me that I did, but also building this for myself, has given me hope for life and in some ways I would say that this has probably kept me alive. And I think my goal in life since I started doing presentations in the first place has been, you know, if I can help one autistic kid to have a slightly better life, if I can help one or one parent of an autistic child to understand them better, whether that parent is autistic themselves or not. If I can, if I can help one person, then then I've done good. You know, and I think that's my purpose in life is I'm someone who believes that we have to create our own purpose. You know, we have to decide and pursue a purpose in life and my, my gut tells me that. You know, I've been given a voice, for whatever reason. There are some really really good, well-known professionals that have decided to pull me along with them and give me a platform and form, and I have to use that to help people. I have to use that to to say the things that autistic people need people to hear, yeah, and I have to use that to tell autistic people, to tell my people, that we are all in this together and we deserve to be here, and no one should get to tell us that we don't belong or that we shouldn't be ourselves. No one should get to tell us that we don't belong or that we shouldn't be ourselves.
Speaker 2:And I think energy accounting, yes, is about stress management, but it's quality of life, it's well-being, and we only get to that well-being through acceptance and through affirmation and through taking that space that should have been ours, allowing ourselves to have that life that makes sense for us, allowing that structure that we need, with the flexibility that we need, allowing us to have the sensory environments that we need in order to do what we love to do.
Speaker 2:You know, I see so many really talented autistic artists, project managers. You know I work with everyone from from school children to ceos. You know, and what I find people the autistic people who have worked for them and who are able to succeed it's because they have that environment created, either through their own sheer stuff, or people are like well, no, actually, you are really good at what you do, so we're going to, we're going to conform to your needs, and I feel like that should be the bare minimum. Yep, I don't see why it should be so difficult. I really don't, and I just I want to. I want to be a voice in that choir of we need to change the culture around how we're allowed to be human.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That is gorgeous, and I think it's something that's so often when I talk to autistic folk who are doing things like you're doing and sort of putting themselves out there and sharing their own experience to then create a better world for the rest of us, and it's that thing is like imagine growing up as an autistic person now, not just a young person, and not having the battle scars that we have, you know, just being able to exist as your wonderful self, and wouldn't that be incredible?
Speaker 2:so, yeah, it's an amazing thing that you do I, I, you know, I've known, I think I know one person like that. I think I know one autistic person who's grown up without getting those battle scars. They got them later in life, but due to other circumstances, not to do with being autistic, in particular, at least. But yeah, that person goes through life in a completely different way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like it's remarkable and I want to give that to other people. You know I really do.
Speaker 1:Yeah definitely. And then my very last question for you, okay, is knowing everything that you know to have about yourself and about the world. If you could go back and give your younger self a piece of advice, what would that advice be?
Speaker 2:well, see, now I want to be able to, um, give some sort of really profound reply. Um, I think it's listen to your gut. Um, and and that's very vague, so my younger self probably wouldn't understand it Um, I think if I was going to get concrete, I would probably say something like you know, something like you know it's okay to be bad at things, it's okay to make mistakes, it's okay to fail at things. Keep doing it anyway, it's good, you'll get there. And then, honestly, the other thing is, I would probably tell my younger self don't be afraid to cut toxic people out of your life, don't be afraid to be alone if you don't put up with that behavior, you know.
Speaker 2:That's such an important one, my it is, it is, and I, oh my god, I don't know if this is saying something I shouldn't say, but I just see so many autistic people who allow themselves to be treated very poorly, and a part of that is that I think, um, I think, because we grow up with that narrative of you're not okay. You need to change yourself, you. You need to be something different in order to be accepted, in order to be, you know, be here. We've learned not to say no, we've learned not to set boundaries, and what happens is that people who are prone to take advantage of us are attracted to that, possibly for their own, uh, from their own trauma, um, you know, feel a need to, to put other people down in order to feel good about themselves. They're attracted to us, and I see it with friendships, I see it with relationships, um, but I just, I just see so many autistic people that when I get to know them, it's like, oh, this person in your life and that person in your life and that person in your life, they're actually pulling you down. They are telling you to stay down and to continue to be unwell because, well, if you, you wouldn't need them, would you? And the thing is we don't need them, and it's so important for us to see that. That, um, but then also to have the nuance. Of course and this is this is the tricky bit right is that we also need to recognize that in all relationships friendships and romantic relationships alike there are conflicts, and those are okay. So it's like, how do we recognize toxic people in our lives and how do we even navigate that whole thing? But, um, you know, we we need, as as human beings, we need to allow ourselves to set boundaries and to say it's not okay for you to treat me this way and by keeping you in my life, I'm actually making myself worse on a on a long-term basis.
Speaker 2:And I think one of the most important things for us, for all human beings, is to have a sense of community, and we can't have a sense of community with toxic people, because that's not. That doesn't give you a sense of community, that gives you a sense of needing a person or kind of a symbiotic relationship. But community feels calm. Community feels like home. Community feels like going into your room and closing the door and lighting a candle and reading a book. You know, um, community feels safe and good. There are conflicts in it. Of course there are conflicts in it, because people do conflicts, but but communities, a proper community, um, a self-chosen family, doesn't break when there are conflicts. It it actually gets stronger from it in a good way, in, in a way that feels good. They repair conflicts in in a healthy way usually, um and and yeah, no that that got a bit long, but I I feel like that's an important one, and not just for me as my younger self, but like for so many of us.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully, support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. The views expressed in these chats may not always be the view of Middletown Centre. If you'd like to know more about Middletown, you can find us on X at Autism Centre and Facebook and Instagram at Middletown Centre for Autism. Go easy until next time.