The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
The Middletown Podcast features interviews with leading thinkers and practitioners across the autistic and autism community. Conversations are autism-affirming and neurodiversity-informed with a focus on the lived experience and knowledge of our community. Episodes highlight issues impacting autistic people and we share ideas for family members and school staff who are providing support.
The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
Understanding Assistive Technology & AAC with CJay Smith
In the latest Middletown Podcast, we chat to CJay Smith, Assistive Technology and Communication Specialist with Neurodiversity Ireland. CJay brings their expertise and lived experience to share their knowledge on the benefits of technology and myths around its use. CJay also shares lots of advice for parents and educators who want to learn more about supporting communication.
You can find out more about CJay’s work here: https://linktr.ee/CJay_NeurodiversityIreland
CJay is speaking at the Your Voice Matters summit on September 27th: https://www.eventbrite.ie/e/your-voice-matters-tickets-1445316152519
Welcome to the Middletown Podcast. I'm Kat Hughes, I'm a researcher at Middletown and I'm also autistic. In this episode I chat to CJ Smith, assistive Technology and Communication Specialist at Neurodiversity Ireland. They have so much knowledge around the millions of ways that technology can be supportive and their background means that they're bringing lived experience and a mountain of passion to support people. I could have chatted to CJ all day. I hope you enjoy our conversation, cj. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I wanted to start by asking what exactly do we mean when we say assistive technology and AAC?
Speaker 2:So well, first, thank you for having me. It's awesome to be here. But so assistive technology, or AT, as I'll probably refer to along the way, is any tool or device that kind of helps someone to do something they might otherwise find difficult. That's probably the simplest way to put it. There's like a lot of examples, um, it can be anything from like a pencil grip to, um, maybe even a fidget uh as far as uh, eye gaze, which is where we use our eyes to um kind of control devices and communicate um. And then aac is the okay, I can never pronounce this one properly augmentative and alternative communication. So it's a type of AT, of assistive technology that supports communication, uh.
Speaker 2:So, for example, um, people might express themselves um vocally, but then maybe, um, like myself, you might need something to kind of help you when it comes to, like, the feelings kind of side of things and stuff like that. So a speech device could be really helpful, and then others use it full-time and it is their voice and it's something they use constantly. So, like, one of the apps that I'm really passionate about and would do a lot of work with is Toby Dynavox or TD Snap, and they have AAC that can do a lot of things. I think people are surprised by the amount it can do as well, you know, and it's just when someone's speech might be a bit limited or unreliable for them. As well it can meet their communication needs.
Speaker 1:And this is probably a really obvious, silly question, but what are the benefits of AAC and assistive technology?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, not a silly question at all. I actually think it's something I get asked a lot because for, especially for people who are speaking or minimally speaking, they're like and their parents in particular, I suppose, might be like oh no, I don't need that or something. It's only for people who are non-speaking, um, or with um speech impediments or or something um along the way. But actually the biggest benefit is independence, um and like it's whether it's expressing the joining a conversation or like accessing your learning, I guess, as well as another one for it as well. Like AT and AAC can kind of like level the playing field for everybody, so you can have a pre-programmed answer. If you knew what was coming like, say, for this interview with the questions that you kind of sent me in different bits too, I could have had answers ready on an AAC to press. And it means then I can still be involved.
Speaker 2:If my anxiety went over and sometimes I go to a point where my anxiety kind of takes over or just something can kind of happen you run out of spoons for the day and I become non-verbal or just non-speaking at that time.
Speaker 2:So it's not always so having a device or some sort of communication aid with me that can let other people know I'm okay, I'm just quite anxious at this time, or just anything along those lines.
Speaker 2:I suppose just means that I can still go to things socially and stuff. I don't have to be too nervous. And then, other than that as well, it means that, like, kids in a class aren't relying on just writing something down and asking someone else to speak for them. It means that they have independence to speak for themselves and it gives us autonomy as well to be able to say no, I don't like that or I do. Or can you give tiggles, like the kids in work could ask, or do you know? The best thing is, like I have kids who tell you a joke and you get to see their personality. So there's so many benefits of AAC and AT, but also probably some of the biggest ones that I see is, if you get the right tools, it can just help to reduce, uh, frustration and reduce that communication barrier in families and that makes such a difference and it boosts confidence as well, and once everyone's kind of included in that, you know yeah, that makes absolute sense.
Speaker 1:What was it that drew you to working in assistive technology?
Speaker 2:uh, so I'm neurodivergent as well myself, so I'm AU, dhd and partly sighted and dyslexic.
Speaker 2:It's probably easier to tell you what I don't have than what is going on and my dad always says I have more letters after my name than a doctor. So it's a, it's a funny one. So I found like I really really struggled in skill but because I was very verbal, like I was constantly speaking even now I realize a lot of that was out of anxiety. You know, I just keep talking rather, but I wasn't really making sense or explaining very much of what was going on for me and I was told I wasn't dyslexic the whole time growing up and what we figured out later in life was that it was actually because I memorized the whole started the dyslexia. Later in life was that it was actually because, um, I memorized the whole, started the dyslexia test because they'd given it to me so many times. But, uh, also with being um, uh, having ADHD as well, um, I like couldn't sit for the whole duration of the test, but I didn't. I didn't know that's a dyslexia test I took anyway, it was like three and a half hours. When I was older, eventually I got that one um, and then I, the ADHD was when I was like 17 or something. They, I was having a lot of trouble and skill, like maybe not getting my leave insert and they. But then everyone just saw it as an excuse.
Speaker 2:Do you know, when I was only diagnosed autistic, then in the last couple of years, like in my 20s, um, and I just think, like not being understood even though I talk loud, and like not being understood in, like how you think or how you break something down, it's kind of what brought me to it. So I used to take everything apart when I was younger and I'm not gonna lie, I couldn't put it back together yet because I hadn't quite got to that point but everything fascinated me, like to take it apart and figure out why things work that way. And then I'd say the biggest one is my younger sister had encephalitis when she was a baby. So someone kissed her with a coser and she got the brain damage from that, just for anyone who doesn't know what that is and so her brain swole and they said she'd never walk, talk, read or write, she wouldn't do anything, she'd just be like a vegetable is what they put the words as as horrible as that is.
Speaker 2:And now I was just like determined, and I was like no, not a chance, like she's going to do something. So I learned sign language to try and speak with her. I used to like make up like what I now know was assistive technology or communication devices, when I was little and I didn't know that I'd be like tap this hand for yes, this hand for no, and then like we'd be like blink and nod your head for this one and she was able to be mobile and stuff, um, but she was cracking. She's like my best friend, she's uh, she's brilliant. And now she walk, talks, runs, reads right, and I tell you now she can read and write better than I do because, uh, she was sitting there at the table when we were younger correcting my shopping. My dad would call out and I'd write down Carrot has two oars. There's so much for any of that and what the doctor said. Now, I fully believe in doctors and everything else as well, but I just think when it comes to the brain, they maybe don't know everything yet, you know, and they were very wrong when it came to her and I'm delighted by that and that's why I think I was like oh, how many other kids are they wrong about, you know, and myself as well, with just being you're bold and you're just being naughty and stuff like that too, and it just turned out I learned like extremely differently and I just needed to have someone who believed in that. So I kind of went down um that road because I have first-hand experience with it and I was testing things for myself. And then I'd see someone else struggling and be like, oh, I have an idea, you could try this. And I guess the real big push that went into the actual job side of it was I was working in a school. I was like it was meant to be on an A&A course that we went out to schools on placement and in one of the schools there was a system of technology and I'd never really heard of it or didn't know what it was, apart from what I was doing, and didn't know that was a thing um.
Speaker 2:And I helped a kid um who had cerebral palsy, in a wheelchair, and they said, oh, he doesn't talk, he doesn't, can't move. You know, he can only move his head and he can move one finger. And I was like, yeah, well, look at his eyes like he's dying to tell us something. Do you know what I mean? So I helped to set him up on an iPad on an arm and I taught eye gaze. But eye gaze was quite difficult for him because his head movements was like right, we got this, we'll figure something out. So we put jelly bean switches, they're called which is just a Bluetooth kind of switch and you tap in. I Velcroed it to his chair and Velcroed the other one too. I had one that connects to your finger. You can like roll it like a ball for that one bit of movement. And the kid just spoke and it was the most amazing thing ever, like you know. And his mom just cried and was like he's 15. And it's the first time I've heard like his voice, you know.
Speaker 2:And the first thing, like I love the script now, it's not me, but he didn't like the script because they thought every time he rolled his eyes like that he was calming down. But actually what he wrote on the screen was it was his like version of, you know, the teenager ugh kind of thing. He was trying to be like oh, not again, I don't want this. And then the second thing he asked for was apple juice, because he's given orange juice in his lunch every day of his life, you know. And it's something so simple that like it was doable.
Speaker 2:We just had to find the way that gave me such a passion for it and I was like, oh my god, how many other people um is this happening to, even like myself? But I was lucky that for me it manifested a bit differently. I was able to do other things, but I still wasn't able to communicate for myself and actually advocate for what I needed, because I didn't know, you know. So, being able to do that now, and I think that's it, I just want to make the journey like easier for others and like help create systems that are more affirming and not limiting, like that there is no child that is not helpable.
Speaker 2:Like help, yeah, that you can't help. There's no child that that's like um impossible for there's, there's a way to each kid. Even if it's just a simple yes and no, it still gives autonomy. And, yeah, let's get to that point where we don't give up on anybody and we don't assume like, just because when they were younger, this is how they communicated, actually, now they might be ready for a more advanced thing, and I'm willing to take the risk on that and try to help find that for families, you know.
Speaker 1:That's amazing and, my goodness, aren't you just the perfect person to be doing the work that you're doing? Like, families and educators must be just so delighted when they see you come on. That's incredible. I know that there are tons of different types of technology, so it's like low tech and high tech. Are there particular ones that you sort of very commonly see when you're working with autistic folk?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, I guess, like autistic and other neurotypes as well, because, like in our job in particular, I refer to Neurodiversity Ireland, so it's a children's charity, so we see all different types of kids and all different neurotypes and stuff like that in there too, but predominantly I think you would see mostly like autistic and things too. But it's interesting to kind of see the difference between the different tech as well. Like I mentioned, that child with cerebral palsy the tech could be very different. You know low, medium or high tech would all be extremely different than it would for the autistic child who is moving and can kind of have bodily autonomy and stuff like that you know. So yeah, it's split into three different kind of categories low tech, mid tech and high tech. So something.
Speaker 2:Low tech is as simple as a pencil grip and I work with OTs in our place who are amazing. I might see something and kind of say to the guys hey, I might just refer you on to the OTs, if that's okay too, because our jobs do cross over quite often, like in, I might spot something in assistive tech wise, but it should be a bit more specialised to the person, like you know as well. So like we'd want to check. So even with that arm I was talking about for the iPad for the other child, I would have checked with the seating guys. Then I kind of put a set to them. Hey, do you want to just check that this isn't going to affect his chair in any way? Do you know? So it's always really important to kind of have a back on that as well and get a second opinion on it, even if you're thinking, oh it's amazing he's talking, but let's not hinder any other progress in another area. Do you know? So, low tech wise, I would see a lot of like slanted boards for some of the kids who maybe, when they look down the visual kind of might not be great. So when the board is slanted, it makes such a difference in the classroom.
Speaker 2:All of a sudden, core boards which are basically a board that I make up, or like you can just download online and you got your core speech, your core words, which is like I want you, me, him, those kind of things. But then on the core words I design, I'll put in those like I want help, toilet, like the kind of keywords along the side, and then I'll also have about whatever activity we're doing. So if we're going somewhere, like one I've been designing a lot recently is Tato Park for this? Oh, sorry, ambro Park for the summer? Um, you know, because kids are going and I want them to be able to, even when they're having fun, know and stop and say, oh, I need the toilet. Because, let's be honest, it's like the parents like have a lot to remember anyway, with sun, cream and food and everything else like you might forget to ask, and when we're having so much fun I include myself in that and you're so into something you can kind of go oh, have I gone to the toilet? Have I eaten, like do I need to? Oh, and when you stop, it's like I need to the toilet. Have I eaten, like do I need to? Oh, and when you stop, it's like I need to go now.
Speaker 2:So my aim, around the low-tech ones, would be to kind of have little visual prompts and reminders. That means that, like it's on everybody and even if mom sees it on the board, we'll go. Ah, forgot to go to the toilet. You know as well like and different things to help the guys through, and it's not the same as a social story. They'd be different, because I get that question a lot too. But social stories are great as well, but I think they're very they can be a little bit like more rigid on like this is what's happening, this is what we're doing, whereas this is meant to be for the whole of their trip, or you know as well. So, like, both are in their own right, so they both be low tech.
Speaker 2:Um, choice cards are another one as well, but I'm very um wary about giving out like now, next, then or now next cards or choice cards, a point being my big one. If anyone takes anything away from it would be that I don't want to use it as a you do your work, then you can have your iPad. It's just not acceptable in my opinion at all, and I have a very strong opinion on that. But because our iPad is our voice, is our communication, it should be out all the time. Or, if it's not for voice, it's for regulation yeah, to be regulated and stuff like that as well. Like that's super important as well, and I should not have to work from a regulation till or from my fidget or whatever. It's meant to be something that helps me along the way. So this is something I battle quite often.
Speaker 2:Um, but also completely understand that parents feel this way, like there's no judgment in it whatsoever, because that's what they're being told by the world and by the media. No, screens are terrible. Like well, you know, um, and I just don't. I just feel extremely strongly about it if you can't tell um, but uh, it's just that. Like, I think it's just that we need to change the narrative on it. I do believe that there are certain kids that screen time can be very overwhelming for when they come off and it can cause a crash. But I think that's how we use the screen and how we use the tools.
Speaker 2:So on there I can have low tech tools which technically they'd be seen more as like medium tech tools. If they're on an iPad and stuff too, the low tech is the paper version but it all kind of flows into one. So sometimes the kids also, especially as you're coming into teenagers, they don't. They don't like the low tech because it feels a bit babyish or something to them. And you know and I get that as well and sometimes the low tech's great, for if you're out and about with 30 students, like you know, I mean, and three or four of them need um tech devices or need.
Speaker 2:It's heavy, carrying everything for the A&As and and you know everything as well like I would really really push it and advise it that it's, you know, because we are never going to make a core board or a low tech paper version as good as we are an AAC that's on a device because it has everything. Do you know what I mean? Whereas we can print off as many pages, but now that's getting just as bulky, do you know? And what if the thing we want to say isn't there? What if the child wants to use a new form of vocabulary that maybe they didn't know? The staff didn't know they knew what the meaning was, do you know? So this is where I kind of would not struggle, but I would definitely have. I would advise to use low, medium and a high tech like where possible. I would advise to have a bit of everything because, let's be honest, devices die. It's not ideal, but they do. It's good to have power banks and other bits, but that's all just more you're carrying. Do you know as well? So it's good to have low.
Speaker 2:So finding Charlie's voice, which, like, we're no way like affiliated with or anything, but I believe is one of the best charities ever like. It's just a very strong opinion on it too, because, um, the woman who started Evelyn is absolutely amazing, one of the kindest people you'd meet as well, which actually just helps so much more as well for what it is. So she set it up for her own son, charlie, about helping find ways for his voice, and so one of the low-tech things that she offers, um, are these amazing communication lanyards, which around the neck of the lanyard has um science and stuff that will be on the device and it's just lovely. And then on it she has um little squares. They're really light to carry. Everyone should have one because they're amazing, because on the back of it so on the front, it'll say a c, let's say or I want, or happy, or whatever, but on the back you flip it and it has a little QR code you can scan and it also has two or three gestalts.
Speaker 2:So gestalts are so important in our job. So for anyone who doesn't know what that is, it's like a chunk of language. So most they figured out most, if not all, um of our like different neurotypes, learning gestalts and we script and we kind of echo things and and it's just finding language that like suits us. So when we just say go, like I'm not going to lie, sometimes I will mimic and I'll go go if it's in a funny accent or something. But I don't put any meaning to the word. To me it's just the funny word because of how it was said, whereas if it's let's go and we're having our fun intonation, I'll go, let's go, and the kid might go too, and then we do the activity we prompt, but with her lovely lanyard and the cards that are on it.
Speaker 2:When we say let's go, if that's the language I'm using and if mommy and daddy at home are using the same language and in school we're using the same language, of course the child or whoever is going to put that to oh, let's go. Is we're on the move, let's go, we're on the way. So we're all using the same language and it's neuroaffirmative and it's given autonomy and it's still like you know, it just feels right and that's language that they then can mitigate. It's called so when they get to the next level, they change it up a bit as well um. So it might be um, and I know it's not a proper english sentence, so some teachers might kill me on this one, but it's like let's toilet, so, but we're taking the phrase and we're bringing it down, or let's go toilet and you might have it down, but some kids like to kind of shorten it up and stuff too.
Speaker 2:It's probably not the best example, but um, it, uh, it's just a way that means that communication is for everyone but we're all on the same page, which is the most like important thing about whether it's high or low tech, because I know the high tech devices and what they seem as high tech, like the screen readers or speech to text software or or custom voice banking is something we're offering now as well, just started. Or apps like TD Snap or like Prologo to go and great. It can seem terrifying if you're not somebody who uses it. I totally understand that and totally give respect to people on that it can. So this is why we should start small and if we're getting used to our words with that, then maybe on the device we model and we press go and we say let's go out loud. Then we're connecting all.
Speaker 2:Like everyone learns differently, right, and we're connecting all the different forms of how we learn visually, auditory, like our actions in our body we're moving, and then what we can repeat and stuff as well, and you'd be surprised what a kid will turn around and say back to you even if it's in like, in their mind the context made sense, you know, like, as if they don't want to work. I've had a child who doesn't want to work and she goes let's go back to me, which means like, I'm done, I'm out of here, like you know, like, and I love that. That's amazing, because I understand what she means when she says it. And that's the really important bit. Whether they're scripting, like Peppa or anybody you know, and you're figuring out what their phrase means, what their gestalt means, it might not mean let's go. It might just mean like, let's go to next activity, let's go, I'm finished here.
Speaker 1:I'm moving on.
Speaker 2:We're moving away now, you know, and it's amazing to see, and that's amazing to see, and that's where low, medium and high tech devices can come in and people think it's all. You know. It has to be the AAC. It doesn't. I really advise it because, like I said, it gives you multiple choice. It gives you so much more, but at the same time, I would never take away the low tech options, because they're amazing and now and next, they're not bad in themselves. It's just once we don't use them that way and we don't take away autonomy, you know. Or the choice boards, and the choice boards should be.
Speaker 2:Hey, you are feeling a bit stressed and overwhelmed. Here's a choice board of which visits you might like to use. Not that you can't have them all, it's just laying them out. Because sometimes when you verbally tell me something like you know, would you like the, the ones I have in my hand, is this the stretchy one? Would you like the magnetic balls or would you like the roller? And I'm like would I like that? And I need to repeat that, and I find that super difficult, whereas if I saw a visual of that, or the actual item as well, I'll be like, oh, my brain can take that and know without any language. Do you know as well like and without the need for? In my opinion, what would be like, say, pex, is like you hand it to the person and then they give it to you. There's no autonomy in that. You know, and it's very much like you bring it to me over here, but if you don't bring it to me, you don't get it. It's communication is a choice, but also it should be something that's like all the time and we're all communicating in our own way, and even if if it is something like I don't like you, like I don't like it, they should have the right to say that you know. So that's where the different kind of tech can come in, but especially like our low tech. Even we have pictures of all of us as staff up on the wall and some kids will take it down and you know you have to not be offended too easily in our job, you know, because they might be having a bad day as well and they're just going. I don't want you today, and that's fine, because they've found a way to communicate that and that is brilliant. Because I don't want to be in someone's space who doesn't really want me because I wouldn't like that, do you know as well. So it's kind of a good one. But we have voice recorder buttons as well, for which are great for, like at the toilet. If we're going out to toilet, you press it and it says toilet time. So again, we're using those gestalts, we're all using the same word and the kids love it.
Speaker 2:Some of them love recording their own like. Sometimes I put them in my bag when I'm going to do a talk somewhere and I'm on the bus and all of a sudden all I hear is chicken nugget, chicken nugget in it, because they've recorded that they want chicken nuggets at McDonald's. And I smile because I'm saying, wow, that's awesome, they figured it out themselves, but like to change my device. I'm saying, wow, that's awesome, they figured it out themselves, but like to change my device. I'm not even mad, I can just put it back to what it was and that's amazing. They're letting me know Now they might not get the chicken nuggets, but I let mom and dad know that that's what they were thinking about, you know, and that's something they liked, you know. Or if I hear their little voice, I'm going, oh, that's so-and-so, that's so lovely, they got to that point, you know, and so like that's another one. And like talk and photo albums so people can remember their trip and tell you about their trip is another way of doing it. So like there's so many, so sorry, I probably kind of went around the world there on that one as well. But just to say like there are so many different types and there's like it's all needed like something I use. That's really low tech. That is something I made.
Speaker 2:A note that I wanted to point out was like my t-shirts. So it's a podcast. You can't see my t-shirt today, but like I showed to you. So it says communication looks different for everyone and it's got an AAC on it, it's got a speech bubble and it's got a spell to communicate board and it's got sign language.
Speaker 2:And my reason in wearing that is that, like I usually do when I go to talks and stuff, and it's the idea to give you some more visual kind of like take this away. If you take anything away, people are like I love your t-shirt. I'm like, yeah, but take away what it says. Like you know, every voice matters. That's the current Charlie's Voice are doing in September, not to promo, but they're doing. In September they're doing a summit and I like I said I couldn't advise people more to go. They've got like speakers and stuff to have like quick, quick access to speakers and things and there's some amazing people but their team this year is Every Voice Matters and it's just so true, like no matter what way you use AT, like I use pins and badges as well, or I have little like non-tech ones, and then of course, I have my phone with pre-programmed things to say. If I get really like nervous and stuff too, I can press her.
Speaker 2:I was put. I was stopped by the guards once and it was terrifying because I went completely non-speaking and and you know, I was lucky one of the guards knew me because they knew my father, who has a business, and but they also were confused because he said I've heard you speak before like what are you doing? And there's just not enough knowledge of it or of the low-tech device, because I went to get that out of my pocket and they were like what are you doing? And I was like this shouldn't be the case. Do you know? And I think, along with our charity and finding charity's voice, we're all trying to make that more known, that and also that we don't grow out of it when we turn 18 you know like it still happens to us, but now we don't have our parents next to our side to say, oh, actually they're not speaking or they're quite anxious right now.
Speaker 2:And this is what happens. If you've got a good group of friends, amazing, they can be a form of at, do you know, like they're a form of your assistive technology. You know, I, one of my friends, wears a t-shirt when we're out sometimes if it's something high, high stress.
Speaker 2:Once there's a emotional support, human and you know, and it's so true I bought it for as a present. I was like when we go to concerts on, this is it and loves it and and even my hats. I communicate too, so with the kids. Like this is a pokemon, if you don't know, um, and people can't see, so it's a snorlax, which is just a really funny one. It's just a big lazy pokemon, but the kids love pokemon and when I've gone into schools and stuff and I'm wearing this or I'm wearing my pokemon t-shirt or something, it's a form of communication, right?
Speaker 2:It's a way to like explain to other people, like how we're all uh, feeling and stuff you know, um, or how how things are going for each of us, like you know, or what, what our interests are, without having to speak, like myself and yourself spoke about our dogs for the first bit, you know, and for me that's a really good way to feel calm and to use as a technology kind of till, even though the word can be confusing because it's not a piece of technology necessarily, but it is assistive in that sense so yeah, and we both have dog tattoos, so people immediately know.
Speaker 2:We don't have to say anything, people will immediately know, you know you're a dog person and they're like let's be friends. And I'm like, yes, that's my kind of person.
Speaker 1:Don't have small talk, you know absolutely, um, and you mentioned sort of the idea of that's sort of like the persistent idea that's everywhere of of sort of um, screen time being dangerous and and the persistent idea that's everywhere of sort of screen time being dangerous and being too much for a lot of people. Are there other kind of myths that you would love to see kind of busted around?
Speaker 2:assistive technology oh, don't even get me started. I thought I was long answering the last question. If that's the case, there's so many. Honestly, I had to think about this before and I was like, what are the key? Key?
Speaker 2:I think that screen time isn't dangerous for everyone, or like I want to give Jews the way it's due as well to parents and they understand their own child. Do you know? I can't, I cannot fault that, and that's really important to know. But I think what I would stress is that finding the right kind of screen time is can be such like so good for regulations and for me, like um really showing myself here, but like I have a couple of episodes of grazing at me that I just like re-watch. So you know, the um pick me, choose me. Like if you're into grazing, you'll know. If you know, you know kind of thing, um, that's my, uh, my go-to, and like um a slush puppy. Like they're my two regulations at the same time. Like they're they're my thing. If you see me watching girls, maybe don't approach because it's probably some regulation I need or something um, or like I use screens for I have certain music or actually, to be honest, like again opening up over here, but I have, like, um, people's voice notes saved who are really important to me and they are some encouraging ones. Some of them sent them to me when I was having a really hard time mentally, um, and I saved them and I have pictures in a certain album I look at. So if I'm out and about like that's a quick one I might not always have my iPad, but it is a screen, you know or videos in a saved playlist that I re-watch and re-watch, and I have a certain set music on Spotify. Some kids I know will do it with a YouTube video and they'll just keep really pulling it back to a certain point of it. And I do that with some of the greys.
Speaker 2:Or, to be honest, there's this toy from when I was younger and I just picked it up in a shop one day and it made my mom laugh when I repeated it and it was like sorry, no messages for you. I tell that story like all the time and the thing, but it was in a Winnie the Pooh voice. I'm determined to find this phone. It's a kid's toy phone. I found it on eBay. I'm determined to get it and because it just gives me such a happy memory. But I have to watch the screen at the minute to get that, because I listened to that same voice, because I recorded a YouTube video I found of it and a lot of the kids are doing that and sometimes we don't know why or we think they're just like messing, pressing the same button over and over. You know, that's my other bit.
Speaker 2:That I would say is that like, yes, screens are so important, but also when you see a child, what looks like they're messing on a device, they're probably stimming and actually it's so, so valid, because whether they're getting a bit of the sound out, like sometimes it's um, it can sound like there's a dj dropping a beat in our place, like do you know that way? Because they're stimming on, it's like what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, and like that's what I'm saying, but the kid loves it. So when we join in and you go home doing it as well, you know if we didn't give them that screen or we took it away, because we'd say, oh, you're messing, like that's the thing that hurts me, I think, the most button and I'm like, I know, but that's also, um, working memory, that's also them figuring out where that button is and reminding themselves you know, or they're stimming. And you'll find they're stimming with a certain word, like a lot of them, like mine, in it, because I forgot to put a space between the c and the j, and it says kajay, when you write, when you hit my name, or like we've some girls who work with us who have Irish speaking names and the way it says it is hilarious. So for those kids and it's a connection with you, do you know as well, like that connection point too, when they do that or they can let you know they're missing someone.
Speaker 2:So I think screen time one is a really big one and that people aren't messing when they're pressing a button a load of times. It's actually a form of stimming, a form of working memory and trying to like motor plan and that like actually you should take it as a compliment if it's your name or or they want to do it with you because they're enjoying that time with you. So that would be kind of my, my two biggest other ones I would kind of have. Um is that not only non-verbal people need AAC. That is super important.
Speaker 2:So for myself I use that example and I try to be more open about that for myself, because I was embarrassed about it for a really long time. And I think then, when I came to this job, I realized actually these parents are seeing someone who actually gets it from a firsthand experience. And yes, I'm 30, about to be 31, but it's actually okay that this happens, because the more you are not okay about it, it's like what they say, like it's okay not to be okay. But the way I would end that is, it's okay not to be okay, but it's not okay to not talk about it. That's the big thing.
Speaker 2:And even for mental health and for like something you're struggling with, like speech or like whatever, or asking for help you know, ask them for help with your device and stuff like that too. So, like now, when I'm in meetings or if someone in the team has asked me to do something, I might say hey guys, would you mind just sending me a voice note, because I actually don't. Really there's too much information and it's the end of the day and I'm finding that really hard. It's not that I'm not capable and I have to remind myself of that. It's I'm not capable and I have to remind myself of that. It's not that I'm not capable. It's just that I struggle with this. But actually my team are like absolutely amazing, like it's the best job I've ever had and I know that sounds really like all your work for them, but actually it's the safest I've ever felt in a job and in something that you could actually be yourself. So it's given me real permission to do that and I think that's where I've learned these things. So there were always things I kind of thought but couldn't put into practice. You know for that as well, and I think that that's a really big one.
Speaker 2:If you see someone struggling in your work, as an adult or as a kid, offer them a different form of kind of communication or just let them know that it's okay if they don't understand. Do you know that way? It's not only for people who are non-verbal, but when we're struggling and a meltdown's on the rise, like you know, and you know it's kind of coming having a device or having a form of AT that can help you with that is absolutely amazing. And please, please, please, just don't tell them to use their words, because they are. They're just using them in a different way. You know that way and it's just a different form of speech, and then I think they'd be kind of my main ones.
Speaker 2:And the other one I hear a lot of I'd be passionate on it, but I haven't experienced it as much myself, but I've experienced it of people saying to me was that AAC will stop someone from learning or speaking. It is a lie. It is a lie. It is just so not true. It is ridiculous. Do you know? Like I could compare it to some things, but I don't want to be controversial about it, but like it, it's just so not true. Like it actually brings out so much more, like it goes off. My last point it brings out so much more communication and people.
Speaker 2:You know, like, um, I have some kids who would struggle with maybe their emotions and and kind of showing that and I I can't stand when someone handed me when I was younger. They're like what zone are you in? Where, where, where, whereabouts are you? I'm like, what's that even mean? Like I don't know. Like what color am I? I don't know, my favorite color is blue. Does that mean I'm sad, like you know, like I? Just I don't get it, but like what we do there, is that like? So for me, anyway, I've designed on theppa Pig feeling section in. So basically it scripts a little bit of Peppa from an episode that I would relate personally to.
Speaker 2:That is a moment of sadness, especially when you hear that George Pig cry. You know that is sad. Like you know, I'm not a fan of Peppa. I may talk about her a lot, but that's because all the kids love her and I've had to sit through episodes and figure out would I equate that emotion to this. And I've heard kids gestalt George is sad in a voice like this. So I know they're actually meaning themselves, you know. So it's um, it's a great way to kind of do it. And and that isn't her not speaking, you know, that is her speaking. That is an amazing way of her speaking and she's using the AAC to do that because she's gestalting from it. But she wasn't able to tell me. X is sad, you know, like herself. But I'm hoping one day, you know, we might get to that and if we're done with it's okay because she still has a way to communicate and show that.
Speaker 2:And then other kids who are, like myself, extremely verbal, don't stop talking. Actually it helps us slow our brains down and say just the key information. So, like you know, because you're not going to be sitting there like I am now, or like I'd be on a voice note, like chatting away, you know. But we have to specify what do I want to say, how do I put this down? And also, giving us the words in front of us can also help with that choice thing, because sometimes what I do a lot of the times I describe something.
Speaker 2:I'll say I don't understand what the name of that feeling was, but what I would describe it as is when I saw my sister on a bike for the first time without stabilizers and I was like, and I'll do a body action, like I'll be like and I was. It's like playing charades with me when I'm trying to explain something, you know, and I think that's the way it should be. Life's more interesting that way, you know. But at the same time it's hard if someone doesn't have the time or patience to spend with me to do it. I'll actually end up talking more at you because I'm trying my best to get the words right and I'm like I don't know if I used the right word and I'll panic, whereas if you take just two minutes to look at me and, let's be honest, anyone who's listening probably thought of a feeling there when I said I saw my sister on a bike and the stabilizers were off and I was insert word here.
Speaker 2:Some people might say proud, some people might say like excited, some people might say fearful, because it's your own, like your own journey is what makes you think of those words. So I kind of like that. It's like art you look at it and you don't know exactly what the person was meaning. Everyone spots something different. So when we use gestalts or we use our like hands or other ways to describe things, like a memory or something, it helps everyone get exactly where we're at, whereas my word for happy and your word for happy could be two different things. Like I might.
Speaker 2:I might not smile when I'm happy, but that's why them emojis confuse the life out of me when it says how are you feeling? For most autistic kids they give us those and they're like how are you feeling? Which face are you feeling? I'm like well, I ain't small, round and yellow, so I don't know. Like I don't know which one I relate to. You know, but if you gave me a bluey one and you show me bluey when they're happy, bluey with their sister or whatever, then that's great and it gives me options, but I'm not locked into it. You know, I can say that one. That's when bluey was with her sister and there was, she rode her bike for the first time. You know Like and then you get a feeling as to what I'm feeling too, and I would really stress that, especially when it's in like a therapeutic setting, to really try and have that because, like AAC will really help with that, but also not to be so fixed on the like.
Speaker 2:You know the levels of like. Where are we at before a meltdown Like it? Just we don't know. And some of us, especially when you're combined type, I don't know about what's about to happen. A lot of the time it just kind of gets there and I'm like I have no spoons and I just want to sit and cry for a minute and then I'm fine. But if you ask me what's wrong, I don't know. If you let me communicate how I need to, using the communication device or other forms of AT, then you know I'm going to give you more language, rather than because you're stressed, that I'm stressed, you just want me to use words. It's actually going to make it last longer and I'm also going to feel terrible because I am kind of going, I'm not like quote normal or like I don't know how to normally tell you this or I can't tell you which feeling that is. I don't know, no matter how much you try and train me on this face means happy. Do you know? It's really difficult.
Speaker 2:I go by what people hear, like what they sound, like, what they say and stuff. So I think the idea that AAC would stop or AT at all would stop anyone from talking is ludicrous to me, to be honest, like it's absolutely mental because, if anything, I think it helps me to understand the kids more, even if it is with the smiley faces, I still think with a device when they hear the word happy and if they repeat it. I've had kids click happy and they're clearly very much not happy. But I've had kids click happy and they're clearly very much not happy, but I've heard them. It says happy and then they might repeat it and go happy in a questionative tone and they'll kind of hold it and they know it's wrong too. So I say, are you sure, are you sure We'll say George is happy and they'll be like happy and they'll give me a facial expression that says no, do you know? But because they could hear the word rather than have to say happy while they're crying.
Speaker 2:You know, it's um, it's very different and sorry again, I'm so passionate on these ones that, like it's hard to stop when it comes to them as well. But it's just because it's something I see so often and it stresses me out when I see it, because I'm just like, oh my god, like there's, it's really simple, simple fix, but it kind of is too. There's a simple kind of fix if we just change our language and change how we are and stop trying to ask people to, you know, be like what zone are we in? And if this zone is bad, like no, let me feel my feelings, you know, and let me kind of go. And I think that was something I was never told, really, because it was just different growing in the 90s. It was just like, you know, your grand is well, like no, it's not even that long ago, but it's just nowadays we have the opportunity as well to realize that we don't all communicate that way and maybe we could draw our feelings or, you know, or like, right, I was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not really a non-themed. Well, I write like spoken word and stuff to try and explain how I'm feeling. But if it wasn't for the devices and stuff to help me figure that out, or the gestalts to help me figure out, oh what? Every time I'm sad I say ti, double gutter, ti, double gutter, and I'll repeat it to myself if I'm anxious. And it helps me because it's repetitive. I know what's coming, I know what's next. Or in my, in my episodes I'd watch, I know what's about to happen. So it just feels comforting in that sense.
Speaker 2:But if it wasn't for those, I wouldn't have the words to like more deeply, dig in and write that spoken word, you know, and kind of to be able to share that. Like I've not really shared it with anyone, bar like one or two people, but I mean like that or some of the drawings I do to try and explain something. You know there'd be similarities and stuff in them too. And I just think that's where it's important, because on the devices I put on a whiteboard in their AAC so they can draw pictures too and let me know how they're feeling. Or I draw an item or something and some of them might draw a blanket they love and that tells me, oh, they're pretty sad, like you know, they want their blanket and they just want to cuddle. But yeah, I'm going to stop myself because, honestly, I keep going.
Speaker 1:No, it's so fascinating and I think it is's that sort of double. It always comes back to double empathy, I think. Where it's? You know, we all need to recognize that the way we communicate is individual to us, but also, beyond that, the way we experience emotions potentially is individual to us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And that's so difficult, I think, as Irish people, like I'm just speaking as a whole here, but like I think that's so difficult, I think as Irish people, like I'm just speaking as a whole here, but like I think that's so difficult because we always get that you're grand Growing up. I got like listen, are you a couple? And you need to go to the hospital? Yeah, fine, get up and go to school, you know what.
Speaker 2:I mean, and I love my mom that to bits. It's not that at all. Crocodile tears you're told, something is like you know, and I'm like crocodiles. Do crocodiles even cry? Like what?
Speaker 2:like so, even all these kind of sayings, I'm like what's going on? What do they mean? I have crocodile tears and, like you know, instead of using the right words with me and actually telling me what they meant, and then I get more frustrated and it looks like I am a child and I'm angry because I don't know how to express myself and I don't have the words or the means to express myself. Do you know and again it's nobody's fault. In particular, I think it's a societal norm that we need to kind of break a little bit too, like you know, and for me that includes using A, c and A T, but for everyone it might not be, but it'd be great if it was, because there's so much folk out there that we might not know ourselves to use, you know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Is there advice that you give for, say, any parents who aren't sort of comfortable and are a bit anxious around using technology?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think like I would have been like beforehand, I would have been like what do you mean? You don't know how to use it, like it's just my padlock, you know, and that's so rude of me, but like it was just that I didn't know. You know, because I was setting these up for these parents as well, like even before I started this job on the side, I was going oh, I'm sure I could figure that a bit complicated, like to me it seemed like it was all there and it wasn't. But actually what it is is for the child. It's not complicated at all. It's not complicated for them, it's actually for the parents. But the thing is we need what I call the 360 approach. We need it to be everywhere. We need to be at home, school, on the playground, like teachers having. So actually, if it's too hard for them, it's too hard for the child, because the child's never going to get access to it. You know and I think a lot of the time and I have no, please hear me before I say this I love the work SLTs do. There's nothing at all I would like say badly on that. I think if we can work together and with the OTs, amazing, but I think sometimes some can't speak for all, but sometimes some of the CD&T teams, or like the SLTs, are given an iPad and I've had some guys admit this as well to it, where they would be given the iPad and they give it to the family but they haven't been trained themselves in how to use the AACs and whatever. And that's no fault of their own, like you know. It's just there's a bit of a gap missing there, you know, in the system. Because they're trained in speech and language therapy Amazing, absolutely. Assist them because they're trained in speech and language therapy amazing, absolutely. And they're trained. Some of them now are trained in the AACs, which is phenomenal.
Speaker 2:But you know what? It might not be the AAC that child's working on. There's so many different types and they're very different and some let you move items on the screen and others don't want you to. They want you to everything to stay there. You know it's about motor planning and stuff. So, again, like I said's, absolutely, like. There's no hate on the SLTs for it. It's just that they're maybe not given training. And some parents are coming to me saying, you know, we were given this device. Isn't that amazing? A hundred percent. That's amazing. You finally got up the list and you got one, but the thing's been sitting in dust for three years because you don't know what to do with it.
Speaker 2:You is doing their job in the SOT sessions on like their speech and how they're pronouncing things and like you know everything else that way. So the real missing gap and when they go to OT they're getting their regulation and stuff, and that I've learned from our OTs is the best time to communicate and to have devices and stuff like that, because when we're regulated we communicate more. It's so true when I'm on a walk with someone or I don't have to look at them and I'm regular I'm playing with a fidget or someone walking straight, I will chat away to you, but about serious questions or anything too. But if I just have to sit with you, I would find that harder because I'm not as regulated. But if I have a fidget, you know it's okay, it's normal. So one of the big things I'd say is start small, get your team involved, because so like, if you can get your SLTs and get your OT involved in it, because during their OT session is prime time for them to be using the devices, yeah, and ask them for help, because a lot of the OTs again, not all of them have training but say, like our guys have asked me, like hey, um, I know how to obviously press the buttons, but can you show me, like, what way you would model it? And that's where some of the low tech stuff can really come in handy again, like that lovely lanyard I mentioned, because on the back, back it has what to model, it has our gestalt that we say like let's play.
Speaker 2:So maybe on the device I program in let's play instead of just the word play as a button. They're not really made for gestalt learners, but the thing is you can program and sometimes if you have the device starting off right and parent presses food and then they press food on the device right, the voice can sound a bit boring, right, they can say food and you don't even really want to mimic it, you know. Whereas when your parent says it for the Gestalt, language processing and how we learn, we learn through intonation as well it's all fun and it's kind of uplifting and stuff too, you know, because we want to follow the intonation. So if we just say food and then the device goes food and it's like the way that, you're kind of like, ok, do you know? Whereas we can program the device and with the parents voice or with someone else's that says let's eat or food now, or you know, and you can have that little bit of voice on it. So I think, get to know your device and get to know what your kid needs or likes. So some kids like it to be the, the pictures, the board maker pictures that come on the device, you know, like those, the egghead kind of ones or whatever is all that are drawn on it and they're amazing. And now they do so many things, like different skin colors and stuff too.
Speaker 2:And I'd say, really, get to know your device and and and go into the settings and play with it. You will not break it, okay, and if you do, you can like give me a call, blame me and tell me I broke it when I was playing with it. You need to help me and I'll help you. But I think that's the biggest thing, there's a lot of fear around the devices. So that would be my biggest kind of um thing idea I give to parents please try not to be too intimidated by it because if you are, the trial is going to be. You know and try and get your team involved, because and if they say they've no training in a brilliant, I'm glad that they told you because you're not waiting out for it and come find me or find another professional who does. And it's not saying you have to swap OT or swap SLT or whatever, but it's asking for that help because then maybe they can send you on a course with, say, safe Care Technologies, who make the TD Snap in Ireland to do Toby Donovan in Ireland. They've brilliant courses. They've brilliant online courses.
Speaker 2:I'd say just play with the device, look it up, ask questions. There's brilliant WhatsApp groups and Facebook groups as well. That are all these parents who are asking the questions that, let's be honest, they're not the only one thinking it. But maybe you don't want to come to someone like me or another I don't see myself like professional is the word but like, do you know what I mean? Like maybe you don't want to go to someone like that, you're nervous of it, but like I would just put it out there now and say please no question is ever stupid please ask me, and it's absolutely no problem. I'm more than happy to help, even if it's just a quick Instagram message. Uh, send me a voice note.
Speaker 2:As I've said, they're my, are my faves, you know, don't mind how long they are, uh, and Instagram. Instagram cut it off for five minutes, so you know it's fine. Um, so you know, feel free to send me something on there and and ask me, or like ask me the questions that you're afraid to ask someone else because I'm behind the screen. You know, you don't have to like, see me, and I think that's the big thing. I think a lot of the time, it's fear and feeling is incompetent the right word like feeling like we don't know what we're trying to do and you're not going to be an expert, it's not your field. So don't like, please, don't feel the pressure for it. But you know, ask other people.
Speaker 2:You never know if people in your class as well, maybe another parent, is on the same type of device. You know, and I can't give out that kind of information, but it's, it's good to ask or ask a teacher have they had training? And hey, did you know neurodiversity Ireland give have free training on their YouTube on how to do it? You know, did you know that TD Snap for schools will give you licenses so that you can put it on your whiteboard and make your classroom more inclusive. Like you know, knowledge is power, as they say, right? So the more we know, the better we can do.
Speaker 2:But also, don't overwhelm yourself to the point where you're scared of the device too, or that what I call device fatigue. There are people here to help you, you know as well, and I would really just want to emphasize that help you. You know as well and and I would really just want to emphasize that and again, just want to emphasize that like as well, these are amazing. There's no I like work with so many that are actually amazing. Some of them have had training in AAC, but some haven't, and it's just. It's just pointing out what's, what's there. You know, we have to just be honest and open about it. Some don't have training and, again, that's out of their capacity range, and that's fine because there are people around that can help. So it's just.
Speaker 1:Please don't be disheartened if that does happen that's perfect, and I think you make such a lovely point about parents because I think parents have to become experts in so many different things, so they're experts in autism and neurodivergence expert and everything's changing and everything changes constantly language and everything you know. That's it exactly so, so to to cut themselves some slack and not feel like they have to be experts in this too.
Speaker 2:I think absolutely and then, sorry, just one on that point, one I had written down that I really wrote down. I really want to see was that and think about it. Like you're introducing a new language, okay, it has to be something that's used constantly. Like I learned Irish in school, can I speak Irish now? Not a hope. Not a hope because I don't use it every day. I've let it go. You know I speak sign language but I'm not gonna lie. I'm fairly rusty and same with love and Makaton.
Speaker 2:I've done so many that actually some of the languages I even though there are three languages use your hands for it. I mix them together sometimes, like because I'm not perfect. That's how it goes, you know, and with the device you're gonna do that. Sometimes, too, you're gonna get it wrong or you might model in a different way, or you're going to be frustrated some days and you're like food now. You know like you're annoyed, like life is busy we get that and especially when it comes to set up and personalization stuff, there's people there for you, but it's basically. You wouldn't expect fluency overnight if you just started a class yesterday for Spanish, right, think about the same way.
Speaker 2:Please, like, don't give up on the child with it. It can take months and I know that seems daunting and a lot of people are in a place where they want a right now fix. I totally get that, totally understand it and totally understand the heartbreak behind it while you're waiting. And then they wonder should they change device? Should they whatever? This is why you need a team. Don't do it alone, because the team will help you to see, because they're not with the child every day but they can see other things. They'll say, oh well, in OT actually I've had times where parents come in they drop me in the device right in the OT sessions or in my sessions in the center and they'll say they have a device but they don't use it. And then they'll come back and I'll say so, they don't use it. Do they not Like at home? Or at home was amazing? They we celebrate the small wins and they went over and unlocked it. Unreal, unreal.
Speaker 2:Like you know, they went looking for it when they knew they weren't being understood.
Speaker 2:That is what we want, do you know, when mom and dad aren't there or our carers aren't there, to our safe people who can speak for us a lot of the time when they're there, sometimes we don't use the device right, because we're like they know what I mean, you know, and it's nothing bad on parents at all, it's just like you know, they know, you guys know them so well, which is so lovely.
Speaker 2:But the thing is then they're kind of like I'm not gonna lie, I hate the word like lazy, but it feels like kind of lazy in the sense of like I don't need it, you know, whereas when it's in a moment they need, I don't want to create a moment where they're upset that they need it, but like in our centre, where they want something that maybe we haven't understood their speech yet, or like we're getting to know them or something, or haven't seen the signs that they can tell us. And we've had that and it's absolutely amazing. So be encouraged that maybe sometimes they might not use this train in front of you, but they're always listening and always understanding and one day, you know, they might just stop and do something that surprises you when they need it, which is the important time that we're training for.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I've been wondering about is is there a way to sort of make it fun to use aac and assistive technology?
Speaker 2:yeah. So one thing that I do that, um, it's not like, oh, I'm a diagrave, but like. It's like we do something a little bit differently at ndi, I think, and how we approach this is and we seem to have had really great results is that like when you get a device from like an SLT or your CDNT team and stuff like that? Again, no judgment on any of this, I just want to preference that in there as well, they're taught it in a way when they are taught how to use it. They're taught it in a way that's like the whole core board is there, right, and you open it. And personally I think it's extremely overwhelming. Like you open it and it's like the I want, who, where, what, when, and everything's on one page, right, and then you've got all these buttons down the side and I'm like man, I'd be nervous of that. No wonder the parents are, you know, and you can start off with smaller grids. You know that is one way to make it like more accessible not necessarily fun, but like accessible as well, and your person you're working with will know that and they'll decide what's best for you. But a lot of the time the fear is but will they have what they need to say because, like I was saying in other conversations, that's the great thing about AAC it's there. But in my opinion, bringing it down and making it a bit smaller doesn't take away what they can say. It's still there, it's just a couple of buttons away, do you know? But I find that, like, my ADHD is not going to want to do that, I'm just going to want to. I want to have what's there, you know. So one thing that I've been doing is that is so important. But I've been having a button where you can click to get into the say, core words of that. So all that board opens up. But when you close that button it's like, not as stressful to look at. You know, like, so I have their most favorite.
Speaker 2:So I have a thing called About Me on it, where I design basically a communication passport. That's fun, that's better, it's to know about the child, but also to not speak about the child in front of the child as adults, because it's not right. They're listening when you say like I find, oh, they have a lot of trouble with X, let's reword that a bit. They're really great at this, but they would struggle a little bit when it comes to transitions. So here's how we help them. But even that, I don't want to speak in front of a kid about that.
Speaker 2:So, on the device I have, like my name is like who I am, like, what school I go to, like what I like, what I don't like, and then like if I have pets, because, as we said, it was the first thing I'll talk about and I'll be like, oh, I love your dog and you know we have a picture of the dog and it's so cool to get to have that and see their little face light up, because it's like you're taking interest. So those youth rickers I was talking about before as well, um, they remembered that I played football every week and they'd be like well, did they score? Did you save everything? Like, how'd it go? I'm feeling that known was amazing. You know the same with a device. It should be personalized. Now it's hard work to personalize, but once it's done and you save it to your account, amazing. And you can do it little by little. It doesn't have to be anything kind of funny, like anything too big, sorry, but you can make it funny by doing things like silly songs or games. So one of the things and again you can use it for regulation then. So I have like a little baby boom and these songs that the kids love, so they're nursery rhymes.
Speaker 2:So I have it that you press the button and it plays the song. Now what's important is it doesn't play the video, it plays the song. So you can still get engagement out of it together and you can be like, oh, and you might do the actions to the song or whatever. Then I have other ones that when their device has wifi, it will open up the video to it on YouTube, because that's what's good for regulation. Right Is for it to help them to get regulated and stuff like that. But when you're in school, we don't want them sitting there on YouTube watching the videos. Right, but it keeps it on the app and when the YouTube video does open, if you were to let it have Wi-Fi, it only plays that one and then it closes. So it's a really good kind of way of having it and also like just of having our little things we say and our little things we say.
Speaker 2:So what I do is I record on the buttons. I might record like the narrator from Peppa Pig saying today George lost his dinosaur and he is feeling sad and then it goes wah, in George's voice, you know, and it's funny. But also the kids relate to it, because I have a couple of kids who when they're sad but not like sad crying, but they're like upset with the situation they go well, and george is like really high bitch cry, and it's super funny because you're like, oh okay, so having that there for them as access, because if someone else doesn't know george's crying is going, what is that child doing, do you know? They can press the device and they can kind of say it. And then the other thing I have is like topic pages which are like um, so peppa, of course, is in there and it's all her characters.
Speaker 2:So when we're modeling the device, we don't want to just model, I want blood. That's very PECS related, you know, and it's just very like communication is based on I want this and you want that. So we ask and that's it. It should be for joy as well, right, and to share joy. So on it I have some gestalt programmed in where you literally click it and it says shared joy, glp, shared joy, right, and you click and it gives you ideas of what phrases you can use, like this is so much fun, but it's recorded by someone's voice.
Speaker 2:So what I can do is part of my job is I can take the devices, I can remotely edit them for you if you give me, like, the access to it, and then I can add these things that I've already made. To save you doing it and I can put them on and to save you doing it and I can put them on, and there already are some online. They're on the like it's called the Pageset Central or like the online grid where people have made them and they put them up there for you to use for free. So if you are tech-minded and you're inclined that way, I think my next series of AAC type things on the webinars is going to be about how to access that and how to add it to your own device. If you don't want me to do it, but you are a tech and you want to try and there's a lot of free stuff kind of already there and like they've already put in and some people have gone to the effort of recording the voice recordings of like it's brilliant of the Gruffalo book.
Speaker 2:So story time is more inclusive and it says there is no such thing as a Gruffalo in the voice of the way you know, the one you see on TV, you know, and it's amazing and the kids love it or a scrambled, scrambled snake, I think it is. He says, or you know, the prickly and it goes through the bits, but it does it in chunks, which is how we learn. But also it means that while you're reading the story you can click on the appropriate chunk because it has the right picture to the book. You know, or I've been making storybooks where we press next and then you know the old 90s storybook I love these. They had the buttons on the side that had a picture that corresponded. So when you're reading the book, if you saw that little symbol, you pressed that button and when you pressed it it gave you like the most recent one, I've seen a kid I know has is a fairground and you press the button and it's the kids on the fairground the noise of that, and then you read the next bit of the story. So I've made our AACs so that they do exactly that.
Speaker 2:So when you're going on holidays and you have a child who absolutely loves to read, loves these books, yeah, it's going to be heavy to carry all them, right, you're going to have one bag of just fidgets and everything they need. Do you know for that? So if we can take off a bit of weight by having that on there, you know. Or like, I have animal sounds and you know there's funny sounds and stuff in it too. Or one kid loves car logos, knows them all, everyone, and so I've got the logo in and it's also helpful for us. If they're talking about something, we can go on their device and go, oh yeah, ok, they're really into this as well. Here's because I don't know Ben and Holly characters here they are, are you know, and I can say can you show me your favorite? And then there's also a little clip that says, like deep in the forest, though, you know, there's like, and it's her, it's the voice from the start of the song, so we can share joy in that too.
Speaker 2:And there's there's like so much kind of bits that we can build in. Or when we're playing Minecraft and Minecraft Mondays in mind, I have like all the brick types and I have all the different things. Right, it took, it took forever, but like we have it all in right and it's so worth it because now in Minecraft they can say to me I can't find this brick. And here's me looking on the other what's that brick look like? Rather than Google everything, I'm still present with them. Or they're like oh, you're so silly, cj, it's this one, and they point to it, you know, or, but they know what it looks like so they can press online now, you know, it's really fun.
Speaker 2:Still, for interactive scenes is a new thing that some of the devices have brought out where we can take a picture of something. So for some of the kids going to the airport I've been doing it where we take a picture of you know that special place they might go to to check in and then it brings them through the airport. So what it is is certain points of the picture are pressable. So you press it and it says this is the man who might take you to your thing. It'll be someone like him. You press the other part of the picture. This is where you'll wait, you know. But it's showing you.
Speaker 2:But it's not a social story necessarily. It's more interactive in that sense and we can do that for bits of the story, for a bit of a trip we went on. So like if they want to tell you, because most time you ask a kid, right, and it's so common now they're getting younger and younger saying what you doing school today, I don't know, and it's only yeah, I don't know. And then you go did you do sport? Yeah, what sport you do, I don't know. And you're like, right, okay, cool, that was a great story. But like, at least then you can have it where. If someone took pictures on their device, you know, when you get home you can ask.
Speaker 2:Or in our sensory center when I have all the staff that are working and so a parent can go in and say, hey, was CJ there today and press the button with me on it, you know. Or which toy and I have all the toys that we have in the sensory centre. I have all the small toy options. Now it's it's forever changing so I have to keep updating it but it shows, like for the choice board kind of thing. It's not just limited but it can also tell a parent.
Speaker 2:I went on the roller today, you know, and we can do kind of like really fun stuff with it and I'd say like that's the best thing is just putting in their like favorite interests and stuff we want to talk about.
Speaker 2:That means that they can kind of or have pictures of their siblings, like pictures of their family, because maybe they're going to see their cousins or something.
Speaker 2:And it's brilliant, because we don't want to just wait until work time to use the device, you know, because when we're more comfortable with it we will use it at time, and I have like the Jolly Phonics songs on it, so when you press it, so during class, they can have that as well, like.
Speaker 2:Or, you know, during circle time. I have a board program that you click into circle time and it's like what they might want to say my news is or whatever, and a parent can type it in or you can record it. Or, you know, there's like so many ways to kind of make it more like fun, I guess, and not so like scary, but also that the child wants to use it. I find that when they want to use it first, like that, then they're willing to use it for the like normal, boring, everyday thing too. You know, I mean, they'll go to it because it's not something that's just seen for that, like some kids, because they've had it given to them and it's just like press the button. They're kind of like get that away from me, like you know.
Speaker 2:So when we start with another device, we have to start with actually a whole new software, because it has to look different yeah because they're just kind of like traumatized them and they're like no, no, thank you, like, and that's kind of it, you know, but you don't blame them because they're being, it's more forced communication, whereas communication should be natural and should be something they should be allowed to talk about their interests, like when I'm on my break with my coworkers, if I want to talk about John Deere, they'll tell me if they don't want to listen, but at least I can tell and I've programmed jokes into the device or like facts about the different things they love, like Lego or you know different things like that, and it's really, it's really fun then, because they can tell their friends the different facts and they might learn something new too, and then they're loving it, you know all the technology for mischief which I think is important, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I've got a new sorry, I have a new section on it of slang words, because I've got a lot of teenagers who want to say and I was talking about this at our summit um, one of the girls recorded it for me, because when you get a computer to say yeet, it just sounds like and it's boring, right, but the kids are all saying it now, so you're one recorder for me. When you press the button, it's her going yeet, in a big like, because that's what the kids say, right, like they'll all say this voice, or skibbity toilet, whereas when you get a computer to say it, they're like skibbity toilet, it sounds weird, it doesn't know how to say it. So when you get someone else doing it and then like I'll be perfectly honest like and some people might disagree with this but like I've programmed curse words onto some of them because that's what they've asked for and it's autonomy, right, and like if I'm allowed curse, then they should be allowed to now, obviously age appropriate and all, but, like you know, they should be allowed to tell you something's really effing annoyed them. You know what I mean. If their parent is allowing that, I'm going to put it on if they want, or if they're an 18 year old who has autonomy over their device, you know, why shouldn't they be allowed to say it? And that's a really controversial kind of one, I think, with some people. But I'm like you know, you have to have it there to let them know they can type it in. There's a letter board, do you know what I mean? So like might as well have it in there as well. And they're only the words they ask for. I don't be introducing any new words around.
Speaker 2:Well, like it's just something. That is that simple. It should be for everything, you know, and it should be that we allow them to talk about whatever they like. It's not limited to only I want or you know. Today I am happy, like you know, that's not real communication, like there's no joy in that too. My favorite is when they tell the jokes right, and you gotta wait for the punchline, and sometimes they get so excited they don't even want you to say nothing, so they press the punchline, you know, and joke there, and then I've left spaces where they can make their own jokes and they make no sense whatsoever because they've used the symbols to make the joke. You know and so. But to them they're laughing their head off and I'm like that's their little personality shining through, like that is amazing. You know as well, or to tell you facts and stuff like that, so it's brilliant.
Speaker 1:And then is are there some sort of apps or devices that you sort of recommend to anyone and everyone?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think, like the big one I've been talking about is TD Snap, which is is an AAC device, so it's the cheapest on the market, as far as I'm aware, in terms of like a full AAC device. There are some on Android and stuff that are free, and there are some, I think possibly on Apple too, that are also free as well, but they're maybe just like not as good or don't have as much capacity or you can't maybe edit them as much to personalize it and stuff. And with TD Snap snap, I am a big backer on them because of everything they can do. I think great is also another really good one, but great is um. I can be corrected if I'm wrong here, but at the time that this has gone out, I believe it's um 300 euro once off payment and, stare, it's a little bit more awkward to navigate if you don't have support. So if you're someone who's like I don't know down the country or whatever as well, or maybe you don't want to ask for the support or don't have the money to get the support from people or something as well, I find the TD Snap is very self-explanatory. There's a ton of videos on their website for free and there's videos that I've done as well on our YouTube channel and like there's really good parents groups for it and, like I said and stuff before that'll help you with navigating it if that's something you want. And it is free for one month and then it is 10 euro a month. After it used to be. It used to be six euro once off payment, but I'm actually glad they have a charge on it now as well because it um, it really kind of helps, uh, to have people using it properly and stuff too. So it's actually been.
Speaker 2:Antenna is like what, two coffees, like you know, in a month, like you know, that's out of, like you know, and I know it might be a lot to some people as well, which is totally fair if you have multiple kids with it and stuff too. But the great thing is, once you buy one, one license gets you two devices so you can have it on both for that 10 year old, and then I also put it on my laptop to do the editing. And now you won't have a voice on the laptop. I don't need it because I'm just editing remotely for people or I'm helping edit the device to the kids so a teacher could put that on their laptop, you know. And if a parent gave permission, or the CDN tier whoever is doing the device gave permission, and for you to access theirs remotely brilliant, you can be updating it and stuff. I know it's another work for teachers, but it's brilliant. And then also, I don't know about grid so I can't speak on that, but, um, td Snap do offer a TD Snap for Schools programme, which is where they will give you enough licences for your devices in the school. If you already have iPads and everything, amazing, everyone should be on it, everyone and one of them licences can be used to do the editing and the other part of that, because it's the two, for it's like the two, and the one can be used to put on your whiteboard. And how amazing is that then, for, like, if a child doesn't have a device, but also if you just leave it up during work time or during whatever, and you know someone goes up to use it, great, and you might only use it once or twice or use it during circle time, but isn't it great that everyone can be involved, you know? So that's my kind of side of it.
Speaker 2:Now, unfortunately, it's only was the bigger one and for a lot of the devices. Apple is the one you can get it on. I always say to parents I really advise just going down to like CEX or looking online for a secondhand one. You don't have to be expensive. You know it actually goes quite far back on the tablet that it'll run on. You know it has to be an iOS something. It runs pretty far back. And then on Android there are things like I believe Cough Drop is on Android, which is quite good, and there's some other ones, so I'll use some of those sometimes. Or Seaboard and a couple of ones. Now they're good at the time that I'm mentioning this to you. Things change, you know, and different things change. Or maybe they'll come up with a subscription or whatever, but for the majority of things you can use them for free. And then there's like brilliant, absolutely amazing tools built into your computer or your phone that most people don't even know are there, like the iphone and the um, chrome devices and any of your laptops and stuff like that. Windows and apple all have accessibility features. I advise everybody to go into them and have a little play around. Have a look.
Speaker 2:I find dark mode is the best thing for me because of my visual impairment. I really struggle with it. It helps me concentrate and stuff too, but also, um, it helps me on a sensory level. I don't feel so overwhelmed looking at my emails and stuff, do you know? And things, so little things like that. Or there's a focus button you can press on windows in particular, so none of the notifications keep popping up because I am so easily distracted. I'll just keep popping over and looking, um, or like putting whatsapp onto my computer. You can have it in a download or you can have it in your browser so I can save down the pictures and make it easier for myself. But they're all free and they're just something so simple that can really help. Or I can send a voice note to someone, but you don't have to be looking at my phone so I won't get distracted by the facebook notifications or something else as well. You know, with the focus mode on your computer is brilliant. I believe Apple has it too. I'm not 100% on where to look for it. You can message me and I can find out.
Speaker 2:But there's some really good things for like reading and literacy as well. I use the text-to-speech on my laptop constantly so I'll be in work and sometimes I forget my headphones, I forget to put them on and you'll just hear open windows this and it'll keep talking now along the way, but I find it super helpful. Or you can set it up where it's just when you highlight something, it reads only that um and it'll read. And there's really good browser tools as well. Like I think this is something we're going to be doing a series on as well is all these like free accessibility things. So like on your browser you can have um, a button that you press, and it'll read it to you. You don't have to have the whole computer set that way, and these are all free as well, and there's dark mode for your browser. Or if you're like me and you have 150 tabs open, you don't want to forget something, even though you never go back and look at them, but it makes your computer slower.
Speaker 2:There's a brilliant thing called OneTab, and when you download OneTab, you set it up. What it does is it takes all the tabs and puts them into this literal one tab, so it's a section of your computer has it and it has the date that you save them and then, if you want to rearrange them or name them something or lock it so you can't delete it all for free. And it's brilliant because it helps me to organize my brain and also like if at the end of the day, I'm just done, like I am done, but I don't want to be saving what I'm doing and I just press one tab and it closes it, and then the next day when I open my computer, I go what was I doing at the end of the day? Here's everything that was open and it's a brilliant one. And again, it's something people don't know and it's fantastic. I think you can get it on Mac and everything as well, and. But I find it super helpful and I think they have one on phone. I've not overly tested it, but let's be honest, on a phone everyone just opens a new little tab bit and you start again like it's not like a computer where they're all there and it's slow and everything, but it does mean that I'm more likely to go back and look at it and it has dates and stuff too, so it's really handy.
Speaker 2:And then there's um different like uh, literacy tools and there's like access for switchability and stylus pens and stuff. Like that's something that's really important. That's all built in already for free. They're all on all your devices. So if it's ever something anyone's interested in probably easier than me giving you a whole list here. You know it. Feel free to throw me a message and I can. I can do that. I'm hoping to get a series out on all that what's there and what's available.
Speaker 2:And then sensory and regulation there's some brilliant apps that are free that I use in the center. I have on all our all of our ipads that are there, which are like um, if you just type in the word sensory on the apple store, some of them are on the android store and you don't pay for them. But then if you want certain unlocks in it, you might pay for those, but the majority are free. There's lovely auditory ones where you like drag your finger to draw and as you're drawing it plays like an audio. So then when you stop, it's great cause and effect. You know, which is something we love, because then when you stop it stops the audio. Um, but yeah, there's those. And then there's ones that are like fluid. So you just move your finger along and it dances kind of with your finger and it's real visual. It's lovely. There's other lovely sound ones and then there's actually fidgets built into the phone too, like on on some of the apps, so you can spin things.
Speaker 2:But some people rather have it in their hand. But if it's a last resort and it's all you have, you know it's amazing. So there's some. There's some really good different tools and on youtube I use a lot of the videos that are free for a really good breathing. So you follow the puffer fish and as he gets bigger you breathe in and out, you go down or just the box breathing. And I have things like I've stickers here on my laptop. There's a sticker for box breathing so you just hold your finger along it, drag it along, hold at the corner and down. So if I'm getting a little bit stressed during it, I can be doing it without even overly thinking about it too and have my fidgets and stuff.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of assistive technology. You can order stuff like that and other assistive like you know, pins or keychains on Teemu and Sheen and like you know other places that are half nothing if you're willing to wait until Christmas to get them. But like, do you know what I mean? It's fine. Like, um, you know it's good, it's getting better and there's a lot of stuff on there.
Speaker 2:I'd say just have a little look around, a lot of fidget tools and stuff as well to try out and things. And there's some things I would say don't go cheap on. Like, say, a sensory sock or something you wouldn't want to cheap on, that it'll rip. But for other things, like different tools you want to try if you're not kind of sure what way your child plays, or different things there's, there's a lot of free stuff out there that it shouldn't have to break the bank and don't always go for the things that say sensory on them because they end up costing a lot more.
Speaker 2:Like the voice buttons I use sounds terrible. But I send the parents the links to the ones that say the dog voice buttons because you know the internet sensation of the dog's pressing it and it says something and they're telling you they want to go for a walk and all. I just buy them because the kids are going to trail them about like so if they're, if they're good enough for a dog to be able to do that, I bring it into the centre and I just preference it with parents. I'm like you can pay 20 quid and get like eight of them, or you can pay 25 euro and get four that say the word sensory on them and say they're from the learning tools. Do you know like there's ways around some things? It shouldn't cost you a fortune to have accessible communication or regulative tools like and stuff you know.
Speaker 1:Is there technology?
Speaker 2:that you wish you'd had when you were a young person. Oh yeah, 100% Like. You know a lot of what there is now and what I've already talked about, to be honest, but, like I said, I didn't know. I was dyslexic, I didn't know about any of these things. So I had human versions of speech to text, you know Like, I would draw a picture and someone would help me vocalize that.
Speaker 2:And I had these amazing youth workers who, um, I really struggled when I was younger to like make friends and kind of get on people's standard, like autistic female story, you know like, and I would mimic people and stuff, but it wasn't really friends. And then I didn't trust a lot of adults, because all the adults in school just told me I was bold and you know, when I went to football I loved it, but you found it hard still to make the friends or to keep and not be on yourself. So I had some people there who were like super encouraging and for me they were the technology I kind of needed, because they would be like, hey, don't forget your gloves, like for football, you're a goalkeeper, you need your gloves, you know, and they would be my reminders that are on my phone. Now, you know, or they would be my checklist that I didn't understand at that age. I needed a checklist because I was like, I'm not stupid, I'm able to remember my gloves, and they meant the week, so I'd forget. And this other, my manager, would have a spare pair in her bag. You know, because that's what caring about someone is. You know that you had those, but I didn't know at the time.
Speaker 2:Now I'm like, say, 30, about to be 31 next week, and it's like I have all these things in place that I'd be lost without now. Do you know, like that, like I was, I've lost without my mag on now, did you put your drink in your bag, but did you actually put it in your bag, like, and I'm like, yeah, because I'd put it next to the bag and I'd leave. Or same with my lunch, as many days I've gone to work here and forgot my lunch and I'm like you know, and like, and it's just funny, like, but when you're younger you don't admit those kind of things. So, like, when I was younger, I definitely could have used some of those technologies, something as simple as like to-do lists, but no one thought to tell me because, you know, they didn't know themselves. Probably that that's what I needed. So something really simple like that.
Speaker 2:Or reminders on your phone. Sure, we didn't have phones like I wasn't allowed that phone until I was a bit older, and then the phone I did have, the brick, would not do a reminder or a calendar. So now, if I didn't have that calendar on my phone, I wouldn't know where I'm going from minute to minute. You know like it's. I have everything scheduled in it and I know some people probably think that's maybe too reliant on technology, but actually it's not, because it gives me the headspace to remember to eat and that sounds silly, but it is something as big as that. Or I have reminders on my phone to remind me to eat, because I would come home from football and I'd be like, oh, oh, I'm really sick mom, I don't feel like I've eaten today. Oh no, I forgot, like you know cause. It'd be so on the go, like.
Speaker 2:So when I was younger I definitely could have used some of those. Or like with finding reading really hard, I did actually take apart a computer that we had and tried to find and I found that actually inbuilt even all those years ago, inbuilt in it was technology that could help you read. So I would have that like kind of tried that and stuff. But now it's like way more amazing and like if someone sends me a long message or an email, I can pop my headphones in and it reads it to me. No, I really could have used a lot of that when I was younger. I think it would have gone a lot better in school, or even just being allowed to have an iPad or a laptop in school. I think would have me a laptop then and I actually was really annoyed because I realised how much better I could have done if I was just allowed to have this all the time. And I think that for me was like okay, when I go into, when I'm finished out of here, I need to do stuff like that. So technology is simple as that.
Speaker 2:And then I suppose, even just to explain myself and stuff, I wish there was like AAC type stuff and all when I was, when I was younger too, because all I got given, especially when I was more of a seen as an angry child, but I was just hyper and they would hand you them smiley faces. You know how are you feeling and I'm like I don't know and we would go to therapy for my everything you know, and they'd be like you know how are you feeling, because you're the siblings and you know mom and dad are busy with these others and and my siblings would answer away and it'd be fine. And then I'd be like I feel like, do you know when Tigger is like really happy, and I'd be like trying to explain it like you know, and I said, but some days I feel like Eeyore and I guess kind of like because someone said something mean to my sister and so like, but people didn't understand. So I guess what I'd wish now is that, like I had people like that understood.
Speaker 2:But then, thankfully, as I got a bit older, I had some amazing youth rickers, as I mentioned, and they used to sit with me and do my homework and be a live speech to text, you know, or text to speech, and they would read it to me and they would not treat you like you're stupid, you know, and they would say there's something up here. And they were the ones that eventually pushed me to go get tested for being dyslexic or um, that I wasn't bald, that they knew you were passionate about stuff, like you know. It was just that you found out to concentrate and stuff and I think like having those was absolutely amazing. I wouldn't change it for the world for a while because of the experience I had and that lovely homey feel I had and this one place I felt so safe in the whole world and but I think that kind of gave me the passion for a lot of this and realized that not everyone's going to have somebody like I had, do you know, like that important youth worker.
Speaker 2:You might not find that, or maybe you grow out of the system and you can't have that anymore, do you know? And like they can still be there for you as a person, but that tech can stand in place? Not at all. Please don't hear me saying I want to replace people with technology. That is not it at all. There are some days I possibly feel that way, but it's not a definite thing at all, because I know it's not doable. But having people who understand that like I did when I was younger and understand that at the time there was no other way to help me, you know, whereas now there is so much other tech and stuff that would be helpful, but I would hate to think that I would have missed that connection point too, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if that answers your question, but oh, absolutely definitely.
Speaker 2:And then is there, I guess, on the back of that completely, is there advice that you'd give to your younger self if you could yeah, I think the biggest thing I thought about this question when you sent it and like it's probably the one I found the hardest, to be honest, um, I think it's it's hard to be nice to yourself, right, like I don't know if that's just me, but I think it's not just me. Like I know everyone has those days and sometimes you're like, oh, I'm good at this. I would find it very difficult, I would have a very, very honest well, I would have a very bad um view of myself, I think. But I would never speak to myself the way I do, uh, to myself to other people. Do you know what I mean? Like I would never speak to anyone else like that. I would never say the hurtful things I say to myself the way I would say to other people. I'd never.
Speaker 2:So I think like the biggest thing I would and I do believe some of it was because of like being told it when you're younger, it's them voices you still hear, right, and you're bold, and you're not good at this. You're not really autistic or anything like that. You're too vocal to be autistic. Like you don't look autistic and all these kinds of things. And I think like if I could say anything to myself when I was younger, it'd be what those youth leaders all said to me and who those two or three really important people in my life said to me and just said like you're not broken, there's something going on. You know there's something else going on.
Speaker 2:Your brain just learns differently, differently, and I think like that would probably be the biggest one is that like, yeah, feeling broken and stuff like that. So it's like you're not broken, you're just wired differently and the way your brain works is so valid and actually one day you may not suit school, but actually one day you'll get to help. Well, like what feels like save other people and stuff too, from that. And well, like I feel is like in a mental health sense, like you know you're, you're worth staying around for you know your life is, your life is worth it. It's not, it's not pointless. You know like, just because school doesn't suit you, just because college took me X amount of years more than it should have, but actually, like when you put it into practice and all of those, those things aren't important. Actually it so kind you are to people, ms Delfino.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. The views expressed in these chats may not always be the view of Middletown. Centre. If you'd like to know more about Middletown, you can find us on X at Autism Centre and Facebook and Instagram at Middletown Centre for Autism Go.