The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
The Middletown Podcast features interviews with leading thinkers and practitioners across the autistic and autism community. Conversations are autism-affirming and neurodiversity-informed with a focus on the lived experience and knowledge of our community. Episodes highlight issues impacting autistic people and we share ideas for family members and school staff who are providing support.
The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
Autism-friendly Festivals & Events with Adam O’Brien
Festival season may be coming to an end for this year, but in the latest episode of the podcast we’re thinking about how festivals and events can be made more comfortable for autistic people. We’re joined by event inclusion expert, Adam O’Brien, who shares lived experience and expertise to help organisers create inclusive events.
Welcome to the Middletown Podcast. I'm Kat Hughes, I'm a researcher at Middletown and I'm also autistic. In this episode I chat to Adam O'Brien. Adam has been building a name for himself across Ireland as an inclusion specialist for events and music festivals across Ireland as an inclusion specialist for events and music festivals. Now, as a former music journalist who spent a lot of my time at gigs and festivals, I am delighted to see that Adam is leading the charge in making those spaces more comfortable. I should say Adam does talk about a bad experience that he had at one particular festival. He was happy to name and shame, but we've decided to bleep out the name and give them a chance to change. Adam is so passionate about his work and I really enjoyed our chat. I hope you do too, Adam, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. It's lovely to chat to you. I wanted to start by asking you what are some common challenges that you think autistic folk face at gigs and festivals and events and festivals and events, starting with the hard questions I see.
Speaker 2:So it's like basically that well-being autistic. My first problem would be that people just think that people who use accessibility should be in wheelchairs and that people forget about the hidden disabilities. I'll give you an example of that. Recently I was working in a festival and I was consult. I was brought in last minute to consult on the accessibility, so the day before I got on site and then I was talking to one of the heads running the festival and he said these exact words was that accessibility should only be for people in wheelchairs and who are pregnant, and not people with a bit of anxiety and autism. So that's kind of what you're dealing with like in the industry that's really shocking, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and even to be, not even to be atheism, but this person wasn't even old.
Speaker 1:Like was young enough, like probably 40s, yeah, so he's young enough wow, and I suppose the fact that you were brought in shows that they were thinking oh no, we do need to do more. But the fact that they weren't all on board with it and they hadn't thought of it sooner is unfortunate, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, because you're you're almost fighting fires when you're brought in that late and trying to solve problems yeah, yeah, of course, and I said I wanted to ask you then your best and your worst experiences. What is the best experience that you've had at a gig or a festival?
Speaker 2:Saying that coming straight out of that gig, I went in to do the Zach Byron gigs in Phoenix Park and that had a specialised neurodiverse area, neurodivergent area. So that was probably the best like, especially having dealt with such a bad festival, to deal with such a good festival that wanted to make a change.
Speaker 1:That's brilliant. That's great to hear. I think for me, I think probably the the best gig experience I ever had. I don't know if you've heard. There's a band called Liars. They were sort of around years ago. They don't do so much now, but the music that they make is very kind of. It almost feels like stemming. As an autistic person and when I went into the venue and looked around I was like, okay, I feel like there's a lot of autistic folk here. Yeah, you felt that I was with my people and then once they started playing, it was like the whole room was kind of collectively stimming to the music and it was the most gorgeous kind of unexpected, shared autistic experience that I've ever had.
Speaker 2:I've had that almost with I don't know if you've heard of. There's a new virgin festival that happens in Merion Square every year called Sensoria. It's only in the second year, but I was managing staff at that and just it. It was emotional to see kids and adults running around stemming trees freely and not being judged it's so powerful, isn't it, to be able?
Speaker 2:to just be ourselves, I think it's courage, and people don't realize how much small changes can make such a difference. Like you don't need money to, it's like even me going in and giving training before fast forward to security. Just don't use these words. Don't rush people. Give them a bit more time. Make such a difference. It's not a money. Oh, we need to put this in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely such a difference. It's not a money. Oh, we need to put this in. Yeah, absolutely, it's those little tweaks. And then, because we we know that the best experience, what was your, your worst experience at a gig or a festival, be that probably comes back to the whole.
Speaker 2:This is also a festival that I quoted last november. Take insult on the whole thing then obviously never went with me. Then last minute went with the oh can, are you free this weekend, two days before the festival. So that was probably the worst experience. The small bits in every festival. You're never going to be 110 perfect, but yeah, about trying to make a change.
Speaker 1:Most definitely yeah, because, like I said, I'm a good amount older than you, I would say, and so my festival experience is from like a long long time ago, and I remember there was one festival I went to in London.
Speaker 2:So then you've lived a lot better experience then, because England is a complete difference to us. We're completely behind when it comes to accessibility.
Speaker 1:Do you think?
Speaker 1:Yeah, us, we're completely behind when it comes to accessibility, do you think? Yeah, well, that's interesting. Well, there was one in london that I went to now. It was a good few years ago, but from a sensory experience it was almost like everything that could go wrong did go wrong. It was a heat wave, so the tents were just like being in an oven when you went in and then the the toilet, I think about two hours in most of the toilet stuff working. None of the food was food that I was able to eat and it was like every sort of sensory thing went wrong. So by the end of the first day I was just like, oh, I want to go home.
Speaker 2:This is terrible yeah, yeah, now the uk seems to be from looking at their festivals. They have sensory areas, they have the areas in front of the viewing platform for people who can't stand in crowds. We don't even have that the viewing platform, areas below, which wouldn't even cost money, because it's just barriers really, which they have sitting there at the festival.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I suppose you're making that change, which is really brilliant, and how did you get started?
Speaker 2:So my whole events industry career started with I've organized two gigs in memory of my brother who I lost to suicide. So I was like I used to be big into sports but then I had three ankle surgeries so I was like what can? I was like what can I do? What can I do to remember Owen? So I was like I'll organize a gig. So I organized one gig in Weedlands. That went well. Then I organized another gig in the button factory. So it's just from that. I kind of got in and then I saw a job advertised for Patrick's Day. I I applied for the job, didn't get the job, but the woman saw I was autistic and gave me the opportunity and created a separate job for me Brilliant. Then ever since I've just been on events freelancing doing different roles.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, that's fantastic. And do you find that? Obviously you've had a sort of a negative experience recently, but do you find that in general, event organisers are kind of keen to make those adaptations?
Speaker 2:The Autistic Honesty is going to come out now and no, I really find it's a box-sicking exercise and it's just we want to take the box, we'll have you here, we won't listen to you at all, kind of. That's why it's like every year if I can make one small change with a festival, that's enough. You're not going to get everything you want done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that does make sense and I suppose there's so much that organisers are thinking of in relation to festivals and there's so many things like spinning. But, as you say, if they can do those, make those little tweaks that organisers are thinking of in relation to festivals, and there's so many plates spinning.
Speaker 2:But, as you say, if they can do those, make those little tweaks, the difference can make to so many people. Yeah, and you'd sell more tickets. That's it exactly. A lot of companies would have the idea oh, we don't have autistic people looking to buy tickets or sending us emails, it's because the area isn't there. And if the area was there, you'd see. Look at the Zach gigs in the Phoenix Park. There was 200 people in the Northern Virgin area. One of the nights there was 150. Another there was 100 the other night. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:And that's just. You're giving people a bar with no queues. You're giving a food stall with no queues. You're giving much with no queues. You're giving a food stall with no queues.
Speaker 1:You're giving much with no queues. You're giving a separate entrance, you're giving a quiet area, stuff like that, which is simple to do and doesn't cost a fortune. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I think people because there are so many stereotypes around what it is to be autistic I think people don't imagine that we want to be out and go into things. But I mean, can you find more passionate people? If we love a band or a particular type of music, we will be there. If we can be there, we'll tell you everything about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it. Yeah, absolutely it comes back to. You probably get this all the time in your life. Oh, you're not like my nephew who's autistic. The amount of times I've got that. That's stereotypical and I was just like it comes back to what's the quote once you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism.
Speaker 1:That's it exactly, yeah, absolutely. And then you mentioned some of the tweaks that were made around the gigs in the Phoenix Park. What are some things that you would love to see event organisers doing?
Speaker 2:So I loved the no queuing, so like because that's a huge the amount of times I'd walk down to. So I live in Kilmacord. I'd walk down to Dun Dun to get a coffee and then I'd see there's a big queue in the shopping center so I wouldn't get a coffee. I'd be like, oh, I can't stand here, even if I have my headphones on, et cetera. So I loved the no queuing or the less queuing, because you're never going to get that 100% right. I loved the fact that they had a separate area to stand, because I can't go to a gig now unless I'm seated. I can't stand in crowds. Well, I can go to gigs because I'm working there and I have all access. I can walk away from the area where other people can't. So just quiet areas. And then I loved the way that for those gigs, aitken gave everyone a sensory bag. So I had a fidget, I had earplugs, I had a blanket, stuff like that, I had a poncho as well, stuff like yeah.
Speaker 1:That's really good. I know you've been really passionate about talking about employment and the dreadful statistics around autistic people and employment and how many autistic folk aren't able to access workplaces. Are there some things that you think employers can do to make workplaces more accessible?
Speaker 2:so I think and from my experiences I've had a lot of so I did a job for a year. I was made. I've only really done one full-time job in my life. I did it for a year. I was really used as a box ticking exercise. I found that.
Speaker 2:So I was working for an events company in Dublin. I started working with them, I was doing stuff, blah, blah, blah, but they want me, they would just use me as a box sticking exercise and then they'd say oh, this is Adam, he's in charge of our accessibility, which actually wasn't my job. They'd introduce me as this is Adam, he's in charge of accessibility. I then say we were doing an event which was a charity gig and they you got free tickets to the charity gig. So you applied for the tickets, but the venue we were using wasn't wheelchair accessible. I pointed this out before the event when I saw we were having this gig, we were using this venue, and one of the senior staff and the company came back to me. It was like oh, I know this, I have 20 years experience in the events industry. So that comes back to more of the people who really use autistic people as a box sticking. Oh, we are inclusive. Oh, are we really inclusive though? Yeah, yeah, right, we can go from.
Speaker 2:Is the interview process really inclusive? That's the starting am I to? If I say I'm autistic, am I at a disadvantage with the company? Let's be honest the amount of jobs I continue to apply for that I don't get because I am autistic and I know I shouldn't be comparing myself to others, but I look at LinkedIn, et cetera. Who did get the job and I know that I have more qualifications, but it's because I'm so honest about being autistic. But it's also the fact do you want to work for a company that's just going to hire you Because you're hiding stuff as well?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you want to feel comfortable and feel like you can be yourself, don't you? Yeah, and I think so many autistic folk do what you started doing, which is that sort of freelance idea, and so you're trying to figure out your route as a freelancer, which is hard, I think, because there's so many like it's scary because you don't.
Speaker 2:I don't know where my next paycheck is and I don't know when I'm going to be paid. Yeah, it's even going back to accessibility. So I've talked at music conferences but I've had to be the one to get to fight with the organizers to get a panel on accessibility. But once I've done that, the actual talks have not been accessible. So I did one year, so, downstairs, the only talk that was accessible was the accessible talk. The whole talks for the rest of the week weren't accessible. The following year I did it again. My talk was upstairs, it wasn't on accessibility, but I was there as the accessible person and the talk wasn't accessible at all.
Speaker 1:Oh goodness, yeah, we have a ways to go, don't we there, as the accessible person and the talk wasn't accessible at all oh goodness, it's, yeah, it's. We have a ways to go, don't we? And it is it's people like yourself who are doing the work on the ground and who are in venues and talking to event organizers are the people who are going to make all the difference. Um, because you, you understand what's happening, and I think event organizers. They might have been in the business for a long time, but they haven't been thinking about accessibility for most of that time. So I think so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's frustrating because disabled people, as you know, just didn't appear from nowhere.
Speaker 1:That's it, Absolutely. Yeah, it's frustrating, but I'm delighted that you're there doing it. But it must be quite difficult at times. It must be very frustrating for you. And then my very last question for you is if you could go back and give your younger self some advice, what advice would you give?
Speaker 2:So it probably comes back to one of my favorite quotes, which is about worrying less. So the quote is you'll worry less about what people think about you when you realize how seldom they do.
Speaker 1:That is lovely, absolutely, because I think, yeah, we all spend an awful lot of time thinking that we're the main characters in everyone's life don't we?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not. No one cares. Realistically I say that, yes, I still worry all the time that's the autistic way.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. The use expressed in these chats may not always be the view of meddletown center. If you'd like to know more about Middletown, you can find us on X at Autism Centre and Facebook and Instagram at Middletown Centre for Autism. Go easy until next time.