The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
The Middletown Podcast features interviews with leading thinkers and practitioners across the autistic and autism community. Conversations are autism-affirming and neurodiversity-informed with a focus on the lived experience and knowledge of our community. Episodes highlight issues impacting autistic people and we share ideas for family members and school staff who are providing support.
The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
Creating a Neuro-affirming Classroom with Dr Kara Dymond
In the latest Middletown Podcast, we chat to autistic teacher, lecturer and author Dr Kara Dymond. Kara is passionate about creating truly inclusive classrooms and she shares her experience and her philosophy around teaching. We also discuss Kara’s new book “Creating a Neurodiversity-Affirming Classroom”.
You can find out more about Kara’s work here
Welcome to the Middletown Podcast. I'm Kat Hughes, and we're a researcher at Middleton, and I'm also autistic. In this episode, I chefed with Dr. Cara Diamond. Cara is a quadruple threat. She's an elementary teacher, a university lecturer, a researcher, and she's ADHD. She brings so many fascinating perspectives in one. And she's brought them all together in her new book, Creating a Neurodiversity Affirming Classroom. I was delighted to speak with her about her philosophy around teaching and how she creates a safe affirming environment for all learners. I hope you enjoy our chat. I wanted to start by asking you about the concept of normal and what historically that means in the context of education.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my goodness, I have a whole class on this. So where do I start on a podcast? What's the movie trailer version? Education is uh is really designed around this concept of normal. Certainly from the 20th century on. It's been about creating like a student as a standard product. And this idea of normalcy becomes the metric by which we all measure ourselves. So teachers measure students, students compare themselves. There's this culture of competition and ranking and sorting, and you know, all comparing us to this socially constructed norm. Um, and uh often it's related to the the workplace values that we think people should have. And it uh it's it's amazing how early on students come to understand how they compare to others, where they stand in the rankings. And it's not even always intentional practices, right? It's it's conveyed to us where we are based on the praise we receive, based on the criticism, reward systems, behavior charts, streaming practices, grades, uh exclusions, whether they're deliberate exclusions or you know, suspensions, things like that, or just being told that you need to calm yourself down and stand in the corner. I hope nobody does that, but these these practices exist, right? And all of this conveys messages. And it is damaging not just to those of us who are potentially outliers when we think about the concept of the bell curve, but it's damaging to everyone. I have not worked with a student, uh, whether it's my elementary students who are all autistic, or my graduate students who are adults, uh, all sorts of neurotypes there. But I have not worked with a student who has hasn't internalized messages about themselves from this um pervasive uh approach that we have to learners.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I I think all of us, like anyone who's been through the education system, can immediately identify those messages that they've taken away with them, can't they? Like I know I certainly can. Um and then I suppose on the back of that, I love when I've when I've heard you talk, and then in your book, you talk very much about the sort of foundation of a neuroinclusive classroom being that sort of safety and feeling welcome, which is gorgeous and so important. So, what difference do you think that that makes?
SPEAKER_00:Well, and it, you know, this isn't just my opinion, it's also the neuroscience of education shows we learn when we feel safe. When we do not feel safe, when we have activation in our systems, memory doesn't work. Uh, we're not able to deeply learn and make connections. Relational safety is the foundation. Uh, it's it's so vital that learners feel connected. First of all, we learn better from people we like, but also um, especially when I think about early years of education too, that power of co-regulation, of learning how to manage your emotions and cope when things feel hard. And um, if you have a teacher who can model that, like progress is what we're looking for, not perfection. And mistakes, this is actually from Zoretta Hammond, whose work I admire deeply. Zoretta Hammond says um feedback and mistakes, errors, they're information, not confirmation of low ability. You want a teacher who can help to convey this and nip that tendency we all have towards perfectionism, uh so that we can actually learn and enjoy learning and take away so much of the layers of anxiety that get in the way. Um, so relational safety is where we can create the space for learners of any age again to explore, to try something in a different way, to do something creative and not worry about the grades, to really connect what they know and connect to us and then also our presence, our role as as the adults in helping them to connect with one another and the broader community. Like, you know, it all starts with relationship and it all usually starts with the teacher-student relationship.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. In and creating them. And would you have any kind of tips around how you build that sense of safety in the classroom?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, absolutely. And again, so the coolest thing being like teaching at different levels, teaching in higher education, teaching elementary school, I actually do the same things at both levels. Like that has been one of the biggest learnings for me is just how transferable it all is and how vital it is at every age. So with students in the classroom and my online graduate students, because right now I teach online, no matter what, as they enter the physical or virtual space, I'm saying hi, unless my class has started and they're late. Like, but I'm I'm saying, oh hi, Kat. How are you? A little bit of interchange. I'm checking in, you know, if I notice someone, you know, seems tired or lower, lower mood or has expressed something about being stressed, um, because we do emotions check-ins in both settings as well. Like if someone has shared something, I'm going, you know, I'll send them a message later for the adults or with the students. I I conference every week with my students. They all come once a week. So I make time with my autistic elementary students to sit and chat and find out what's going on for them, anything they want to share, what's what's feeling good and confident at school and what's feeling harder and um how I can help. And I do that in my virtual space as well, where we have a self-reflection and I respond to them with audio notes all the time so they can hear my voice. And yeah, just showing that sense of care and um really thinking about how I want my students, uh, learners in general, to engage with the world. I really want to model that, um, like what is possible, because I feel like so many people think that education is about conformity and and compliance, and well, they just have to learn how to do these things and get through and push through, but that isn't how I see education at all. I see this sort of transformative potential of education and and challenging how we've always taught or how we've been taught allows me to show another way, show what else is possible. And then potentially that will become the new norms that are transmitted and uh you know actualized by students as they go into other spaces, again, whether they're children or adults, uh, knowing what it feels like to be in a space that strives to be as accessible as possible, like all of that I hope is is doing what I want it to do and helping them to know what to advocate for and know what it feels like and know the difference.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And yeah, like just thinking, I mean, obviously I was in school 1,000 years ago. But that that sense of being seen as an individual by a teacher made such a difference. And those are the teachers that I I felt comfortable to to learn in, even in their classes. Whereas the teachers who had that very rigid, you know, this is how people learn, this is how the day is supposed to go, it was just fear for the whole class, you know, of waiting for when I got something wrong because I knew that I inevitably would. So yeah, the the sense of safety, I think, is just it's so, so important, absolutely. Um and then what are some expectations in the traditional neuronormative classrooms that can be very difficult for neurodivergent students?
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Uh again, have a whole course on this and talk a lot about all of the ways that we tend to privilege certain ways of communicating and processing. So one of the expectations of course is the fastest hand raiser. Now, sometimes we are the fastest hand raiser and we raise our hand all the time. Like I used to be one of those students when I was quite young where I was always surprised if I wasn't picked. Because I'm like, don't they see that I'm here waving my hand? Like, I can answer this question and we can move on. But when when teachers only pick the fastest hand raiser, it does communicate to everyone else that there's no point in trying to think about the answer. Um, so that's that's one of the things I I like to talk about a lot is how do we build in space and create create a norm in the classroom where we can allow time and allow for more nuanced processing and for people to grapple with ideas and you know, so we're not picking the same learners who just happen to be speedy processors. We we often equate speed with intellect, and that is not true in the slightest. And I uh again, both with elementary students and graduate students, I do like a little mini mini review on um, I look at the work of Barbara Oakley and she talks about how there are race car brains and hiker brains. And, you know, there are certain advantages for the race car brains because they, you know, they they are answering the question before it you've even finished asking it as the adult. And uh what is sort of the disadvantage of that is they might not take in additional information and adjust their thinking as flexibly, whereas someone who processes in a more nuanced way, like that hiker brain, they're they're seeing the rabbits, they're hearing the birds, they're taking in more information and coming to different ways of thinking about it. And you know, being aware as teachers that we have learners who process at different speeds, and one is not better than the other. They both have advantages. Um, and same with same with other skills, right? Like there isn't just one ideal way to communicate what you know. So I always approach assessment as it should be a celebration and a way of of benefiting them and in finding a way where they can show what they know um and they can enjoy it, they can communicate uh in the way that works best for them. So even doing things like having learners test out different modalities. Um, I have my graduate students, I challenge them all to do a reflection with voice notes at least once, uh if if they're more drawn to always typing. Like I want them to experiment and know that there's no consequence for misspeaking or it really is about finding what works for you and seeing if you express or organize your ideas differently depending on um how you're going about it. Um so yeah, I forget the question. I get to gabbing and then that's really gorgeous though.
SPEAKER_01:And I think it's so so valuable for everyone to do that. That's one of those things, because I I went through buckets of occupational therapy when I was in university, and I didn't realize that I wasn't in any way working with my senses and working with how I communicate. So giving people those roots to try and experiment with that is so valuable.
SPEAKER_00:That's imagine if we did that with children, right? Like their ability to advocate for themselves would would occur so much earlier because like without fail in my graduate courses, so I teach a tool every class that is an accessibility tool. So the first one I do is I encourage them to test out a text reader. So like their next reading, listen to it, see if you process differently. And again, without fail, every time I run the course, I have graduate students, adults, who are saying, Oh my goodness, I used to struggle so much with readings. And this was the key. This was what unlocked this for me. And it makes me sad because we should have done this earlier. They shouldn't get to adulthood without having, you know, access to things or or or learning other options to connect to themselves as a learner.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. That's so valuable. And I know at this point every listener is going to be wondering about the course that you're talking about. Is it is it purely Canada-based?
SPEAKER_00:Can other people Yes, I I teach at the University of Toronto at the Ontario Institute for Studies and Education. And I uh I teach a course in two different departments there, and it's the same course, just rebranded slightly, depending on the uh the department. And I had the pleasure of being able to develop like the course that I wanted to teach, the course that I felt like addressed the things that are missing in teacher education uh and education more broadly. So it's been such a delight. Like I'm very spoiled, like I never want to teach anything else, you know. But I'll have to, I'm sure, at some point in my in my journey.
SPEAKER_01:But well, I know as I say, people will be wanting to take your course, but you have a gorgeous book that people can't be creating creating a neurodiversity affirming class. You might have it in my hands right here. And it is really, really beautiful. Um, what did you want when when you were putting that together? Was it sort of similar to how you were putting your course together? Did you want to very much?
SPEAKER_00:These were sort of parallel processes because I I had this vision of what I wanted to accomplish um in both, and it was very much shaped by I guess all of the hats that I wear, right? So part of my job is working with children, another part of my that job is supporting their classroom teachers. So I get a sense of what teachers are are are wondering and what their classroom concerns are. And then in my evenings and summers, I teach teacher candidates, people who are training to be teachers. So I was also getting this sense of what are their apprehensions? What are they worrying about? And then how can I write the book that is the book I think that will help them to have the answers that they need? And, you know, not to say it answers everything, but I think it lends itself to um a mindset shift where you're not alone in solving problems. It's not all on you. And it's it's more about how do we how do we harness um our students as collaborators in their own learning? And how do we create access points preemptively before someone says, hey, I need this thing. How do we anticipate and embrace like the fact that learner variability and being prepared to meet the diverse learners in your class? Uh, like when we do that, it is increasing possibility for everyone.
SPEAKER_01:That's it. Yeah, that's it exactly. And I think what's really lovely about the book as well, because I think it, I mean, and you as a teacher, you know this. Like so much is asked of teachers in so many capacities. It's it's like in my day, it was like you learned your text and that was that. But now there's so much, so many other types of support that teachers are providing their students. And I think it can also then on top of that be really intimidating to sort of think, well, how do I support neurodivergent students on top of that? And I think it's a really safe book, if that makes sense. It's it's a re it it shows it it sort of welcomes people in in a really beautiful way and and sort of shows them that they don't need to be worried and they don't need to be scared about approaching um the idea of supporting neurodivergent students, which is really, really lovely.
SPEAKER_00:And I, you know, and that's a message that I I also felt was important um because you can go to workshops and professional development and just hear all these wonderful ideas and then be completely overwhelmed at where to start. And I I like to remind everyone teaching is additive. We are always adding to what we do well. We're always sort of revising as we go, and we don't have to do it all at once. Like I am, you know, in my 15th year as a classroom teacher, I do not teach at all the way that I did at the beginning, you know, and it like growth over time and showing myself grace over time, um, and just trying one or two new ideas at a time is is where you can see the changes. And then once once you've sort of automatized and like worked something into your practice so that it feels really natural and second nature, then you challenge yourself to take on something else.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And is that, I suppose, is that the the piece of advice that you give to a teacher who's sort of wanting to broaden out um how they teach and create a really inclusive classroom?
SPEAKER_00:That would be one of them. But I think the most important thing is seeing students as your best resource. Um, so often we we, you know, we have so much to do, and it's difficult to do it all, and you know, our hearts are in the right place and we want to help everyone. And so often we're racking our brains, staying up at night going, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do about the student? Or we're talking to our colleague, or and we forget to talk to the student and find out from their perspective what's going on. And that has been the biggest shift for me, has been moving to a um, I I use Ross Green's collaborative and proactive solution approach. And so again, I conference every week when I see my students with them and we talk about how things are going, what their goals are that they set for themselves, and you know, how can I help you with that? What's easy about it, what's feeling hard, what do you think would help? And by not jumping in to offer what I think is a good solution, unless they ask me, unless they say, Do you have any ideas? By having them think about and um come up with suggestions, I've realized like so often what I think is the problem is not actually the problem. So they identify the barriers better than I can. Um, but then the solutions are so much more meaningful and more likely to work when it comes from them. Um and I have learned so, so, so much as a teacher and just as a human being from seeing what some of the barriers are that I never would have thought about. And uh, you know, getting getting great ideas from these collaborative sessions with students where we identify a couple of things to try, whether it's you know, me as a teacher or me communicating to their teacher or parents something to try or things that they are going to try on their end. Often it's a combination of both, and seeing the fruits of that, you know, and revising as we need.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's really lovely. And it's it's it's giving them so much agency as well, which I think is so rare in young people's lives.
SPEAKER_00:And all the skills that you actually like everything we think that we want to do for learners, I this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately, is like all of the things we actually want when we think about long-term goals for learners. This kind of approach does. It gives them a chance to develop communication skills, metacognition, where they're thinking about and evaluating their own performance. It's uh them learning how to problem solve, how to ask for help when they need it, how to take action, agency, things like that. It gives them the chance to do those things. But often in education, we are micromanaging to a degree that the things that we say we want, we're not enabling. We're not creating the space for those skills to develop.
SPEAKER_01:And I saw on LinkedIn that you posted about an afternoon that you had with your student. Tell us a bit about that.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. So this is uh an example of sometimes good teaching is following students with what they're interested in, what they're asking. Like sometimes I get completely sidetracked and we get sidetracked together, and they remind me like you're off topic, you know. But this was an afternoon where I just I was blown away um by my students. Um, so it started as planned, and I I always start my afternoon with like a song of the day, and I have them think about what are some messages we can take from this song. And this particular song featured um in in sort of the video portion, someone doing sign language, American Sign Language, um, the words of the song. And so afterwards there were questions about that. Is that sign language? And one of my students said, wouldn't it be easier for them if they learned to read lips? And so I was like, well, this is a good teachable moment. All right, I'm ready for this. Um, and I said, Well, I want you to think about what it would feel like if you suddenly were in another country where you were not fluent in the language, and how much more difficult that would be and tiring it would be to try and get your message across. And then, you know, they sort of made some connections to that. And then I said, Now there is a there's a university um in the United States where they teach all the classes in sign language, and there is a sense of deaf culture, and there's pride in language, and everyone there is able to speak the same language. How would it feel to be in in that sort of space? And then one of them made the connection, oh, it's sort of like being here where it's easy for all of us to communicate. And exactly. Um, I said, you know, many, many people who are deaf don't wish to be like everyone else. You know, they have a language, they have a language they're proud of. And, you know, someone else said, Well, what about people who are blind and deaf? And another student said, Oh, like Helen Keller. And so then we shifted topics to Helen Keller. And I said, you know, when Helen Keller was a child, so you know, people believed that children with disabilities could not learn, that they were unteachable. And, you know, what did we learn from Helen Keller's story? Yes, part of it is like her parents had resources and things like that. But no, she was able to show that those misconceptions were not true. And then students started to share their connections to this and say, people told my parents, doctors told my parents when I was diagnosed as a little child that, you know, I who knows exactly, but something really negative, right? About their future trajectory. And my mom was really sad. And then they put me in programs to help me. And so then we were able to talk about that. And I taught them about the medical model, and I taught them about the social model of disability. And they were making all of these connections and saying things like, you know, a couple of them said, you know, pardon my language, miss, but and they would swear and say, you know, people are so whatever the swear word was, you know, they make so many assumptions. One student went off and made a visual where he said, This is the hierarchy that I think people see us. Um, like the lens they see us, we're either tech geniuses or we're, what did he say? It was something like, or we are, or we can't speak and we have intellectual disabilities. And I went, okay, well, we also have to be careful because all of us, we have to remember that every person has worth. And there, you know, non-speakers have worth. And many non-speakers do not have an intellectual disability, but even if they do, we have to treat everybody. And we we have a responsibility when we're advocating to include everyone. And, you know, and then we were able to talk about what we would want to change in the world. And I talked about how we're part of a broader community of advocates, you know, we can advocate as the disabled community for access for everyone. You know, we're not alone. And it ended up being such a beautiful sort of shift through all of the feelings that they were feeling. They talked about how they hated the representation on South Park and you know, how they felt other people felt about autism and disabilities to this place where we were able to talk about how do we, how do we help people along when we have the energy to do so? Because of course it's not always um our responsibility too, but um as part of a collective, we are stronger together and we are, you know, it was just I I couldn't believe that I was able to do that level of um, you know, disability justice with like 11-year-olds, 12-year-olds, and take things that again I use in my university classrooms, simplifying the concepts, of course, but like, you know, I never underestimate students. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I take from that. Yeah, absolutely. And oh, imagine like the sense of connection that they have to community, the sense of connection they have to history as a result of that. And then the empowerment and the feeling that, you know, they can create some change themselves if, as you say, if they have the energy to and they have the community to do that around them at the time. That is so powerful. What a lesson to have.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, for all of us. And, you know, it's something I work really hard with them to understand that we're all interdependent and like, you know, you're not just advocating for yourself, though that can be where it starts. And it's important to advocate for yourself, but you also have the ability to help other people, you know. I feel like we want to move them to a place where that there is that sense of empowerment, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, actually you that's just sort of sparked something in me because I think a lot of the time when we talk about advocacy, it's about almost sort of supporting young people to say, I struggle with this. And that's where that conversation ends. So that idea of thinking about community and thinking about helping other people and advocacy being all of those things is so, so important. That's that's a lightful moment for me right there. I'm so glad.
SPEAKER_00:See, we learn all the time from students, eh? Absolutely.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And how have your students reacted knowing that you're autistic? Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So this is a uh, you know, it's it's been interesting because the ones that I I was teaching when I um was first diagnosed, um, I a couple of the groups I had taught for two to four years. Um, and some of the students were like, oh, we already thought you were. Like it was they were just completely like, yeah, we already knew that. Um, which was funny. Uh but then it it has been really wonderful to see with each new group um being able to share that often the only things that they've heard about autism are negative things. Um, they they may not know any adults um or even other children potentially until they come to my program where everybody's autistic, including me. Uh, you know, so they they have already started to internalize some of those negative messages, like, you know, the sense of difference from norm that we were talking about earlier. And I've had, I can think of so many students, uh, but one in particular, uh a little girl, and she didn't didn't speak very often. She was very, very soft spoken when she did speak. And I I gave a whole lesson on um. Uh, things about being autistic that I love. And I think it's really important that we lead with autistic joy. And we can get to talking about the hard parts later, but building, you know, countering the narratives that are are out there. And, you know, she came up to me afterwards and sort of just did I hear you correctly? Like she put her hand on my arm and she just said, Did you, did I hear you say that you're autistic? I have autism too. And she like stretched a little taller. And it's been like that with so many students. And it's it's been able to break down, um, I guess I don't know if it's a sense of hierarchy or or or something in the classroom shifts because they know that I understand. And um, and there is this like again, that sense of relational safety. And they often will come to me and talk about their experiences of stigma. And the this many of these are, you know, 10-year-olds, um, 11, 12, and they already have a sense of difference. And we can talk about those things and talk about um what needs to change and how people don't have the information and don't understand but what they hear or what they see on TV or what they hear in you know, the playground when children use autistic as an insult. Like we can talk about why other people don't have the understanding and what is the message we would like to convey. And you know, it's it's can feel really hard when we have to advocate. Um, but uh, you know, I try to build a sense of like we're stronger together, we're part of a community, and um part of part of advocacy is uh resting when you need to, and other knowing other people are doing the same work. And you know, I I children often confide in me things that I I don't think they're even telling families sometimes about how they have felt. And it so it, you know, knowing that I'm a part of them, recognizing some of the beautiful things and the strengths and um also the strategies, like the coping strategies. How do we how do we exist in um, you know, in situations where the expectations do not feel safe? And how do we like what are the things that we can do? And you don't have to adjust to neurotypical norms. It helps to know what they are, like selectively use them if you're able to, but you don't have to fundamentally change. You can still grow and challenge yourself. What are the areas where that's important to you? Like what are your goals? So um, yeah, it to me that that has been an important part of them trusting me and um being able to help them to grow in confidence in their identity, in their sense of community. And, you know, it's just I wish everyone had this, not just autistic people, but like, you know, to have a space where that I'm doing that early, I I really hope that it helps down the road too with some of the uh the mental health struggles our folk are prone to, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it must be really powerful for for parents and other teachers as well. I'd imagine that makes and the the sense of comfort as a parent, I'm sure, is massive.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I've definitely heard uh from a few parents that oh, as much as like this program is for the kids, it's it's helped us uh as well. It's for the parents too.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I really um and then what were you like as a young learner? Because I'm always fascinated by people who teach.
SPEAKER_00:Precocious. Uh I feel like I went through different phases. Like, you know, in early childhood, I was very bubbly and chatty and like in trouble for talking all the time, you know, that that kind of thing. And um, but certainly through middle school and leading up to middle school, a lot of like social issues, not feeling like I fit in, and then being bullied and switching schools a couple of times and just sort of realizing like that I wouldn't be able to win over peers. Uh, you know, I should just sort of focus on academics and get through and, you know, have my vivid imaginary worlds and my reading and my writing and these things that were not people because I couldn't trust that my peers had good intentions. And um, I really like I really learned to mask so well because I didn't want them to know how much like I didn't want them to know when I was scared or anxious or bothered or didn't understand something, right? So um yeah, no, I academically things were pretty good except for math and gym class. Those were those were very difficult for me, but otherwise, um, I think I had a lot because my parents have always been really wonderful at encouraging my creativity and nurturing that. And I I just I was able to bring that into school work or have I had the confidence to say to teachers sometimes, like, can I instead of doing this as an essay or instead of writing on this topic, could I do this instead? Could I create a little movie or write a play or whatever it was? And um, and you know, little did I like I didn't know about monotropism at the time, right? So, but that was what I was able to kind of tap into. So academically good, um, peer relationships dwindled and were not great. And certainly there were um times uh through grade six to grade eight where I was like deeply, deeply unhappy. Um but uh, you know, things things turned around luckily, and uh I rediscovered, you know, sort of my love for being at school and learning. And obviously I go to school every day now.
unknown:You know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh it's fascinating to me that so many of us, no matter where we are in the world, have such a similar trajectory of being the sort of the outgoing bubbly, you know, many opinions. And then having that and then that dip, yeah, where the the the masking kicks in and we kind of it takes a long time for us to find our way. But then as you say, we do eventually get to that point where we find our way and we find our tries and stuff.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, it's and like the more, you know, sort of having a bigger pool of peers can really help too. And uh, but yeah, no, and e even later in like in high school, I remember coming home and just being so exhausted and crashing. And now I know what that was. Yeah. And I still it still happens, you know. But uh I I need my time, I need my time in the in the dark, doing nothing, and like yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But but I now we can give ourselves the permission, you know.
SPEAKER_00:And we understand why we need it.
SPEAKER_01:That's it. Exactly. It makes such a difference, doesn't it? It really does. Um, and then is there advice if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself some advice? Is there any advice you give?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I think one of one of the things would just be reassurance that like things get better and you know, people not responding to you right now is not a reflection of you or your worth. Like you are lovable, that you know, like and besides that, I think like it would have been nice to learn a lot earlier what boundaries are. Um you know, I say this like even until a couple of years ago, like I didn't really know how to set boundaries or like what those could look like. And you know, I've been very conflict adverse my whole life. I'm you know, I'm uh so just I don't have to give as much of myself to people and um how to sort of navigate those those interpersonal things would have uh would have been a good lesson. Um, but you know, keep pursuing the interests, keep keep uh, you know, yeah, and and who to spend time with. Like you don't have to spend time with people if they don't make you feel good. It would have been nice to give myself that permission or to like let people know when you're struggling. You don't have to keep it all inside. Like people would want to help you with things, you don't have to feel alone with everything. So all of that would be like my uh my sort of learning how to thrive as an autistic person 101, but in childhood, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that that piece of sort of uh recognizing when you don't feel good around someone, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you don't just sit around and like hope that they like you. You can, you know, you want to like them too. Yeah. They yeah, they they have to earn your your affection as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's it. Yeah, it's an important lesson to learn. Um Well, uh speaking of important lessons, my very last question for you is um, what do you think is the most important lesson that you've learned from all of the autistic young folk that you've worked with?
SPEAKER_00:They have changed me fundamentally as like a human. Um, and one of the ways was just understanding the impact of behaviorism and getting rid of it to the best of my ability to do so. Like, you know, I think we we have to be really reflexive as whether it's as teachers, as parents, um, about what we are conveying that we don't necessarily even realize we're conveying in what we do. And one of the biggest shifts was getting rid of reward systems, which I thought for sure was going to fail. I I but I also had my convictions. I had read a lot of the literature, I'd listened to my students, and I I, you know, I began to really question the practices that I had been told are good teaching for autistic children. Um, because, you know, we we teach how we're taught to teach, right? We teach, you know, someone says this is the best thing to do. You you go, okay, this is best practice, and I'm gonna do it. And I started noticing that having um having lots of goal charts that are marked by all of the adults, like parents setting goals for their children at home and teachers setting goals for them to, you know, act like everybody else at school, and often very like arbitrary and you know, neuronormative types of goals, where it's like this, this is the hill we're dying on. Like, what? Um I started to think about the message that would send um to students that they're they have all of these goals other people aren't working on, and like what is wrong with me? What needs fixing about me? And I, you know, it I just found it so deeply unsettling when I really began to question the practice. And so again, in thinking about alternatives, it was like, all right, I am going to try to do things differently. And I I the the online learning period in 2020 was a huge part of this as well. Like I had already started to shift where it wasn't parents setting goals, but I still thought there were too many goals where the message is probably not the greatest. Um, and in the online period, I I A, I didn't want to have a reward system because it's like this is hard. Life is hard and there's a lot going on. And I don't want the message to be you're only deserving of uh, you know, time doing the the activity that brings you comfort if you have handed in all your homework and done all your chores. Like, no, you deserve that and you need that. You need that no matter whose expectations you have met or failed to meet, you know? And I didn't want this to be added pressure. And so I I just said, like, give me a goal that you want to work on, anything that you want. Um, what what's gonna help you right now? And then I was able to use my time with them, like my vert, it was switched to virtual, of course, was I got to coach them on whatever that was. And for some of them, it was like I had a student who wanted to learn how to cook. And so I remember being on the camera with him one time and he was making hassle back potatoes, which is like, oh my gosh, like I couldn't believe the skills that they developed. And and for some of them it was like I'm having trouble uh, you know, sitting and being on screen in in class and then being able to talk to them about, well, what do you think would help? Is it is it is it is the demand too rigid? Is the teacher demanding the camera be on? Is that what the barriers like we were able to then identify things which we could decide? Am I communicating this to the teacher or do you want to? Like, how are we gonna problem solve this? What, what, how can the teacher know that you're listening? What are some ways you can show participation if the camera's off? Because it's totally possible. How are we gonna solve this? Um, but I also thought there's no way they were gonna work on goals without a carrot. But I was completely wrong. I was completely wrong because the carrot was the fact they got to pick their own goals and it was something they wanted to work on. I didn't need to have things like, oh, you know what, you know, anyone who meets their goals, we're gonna do this fun thing. No, I can now do fun things for everybody, and it's not contingent on meeting my, you know, my particular expectations. It's just this is something we're doing because we enjoy spending time together and it's part of being a community. Um, so that was something I have continued, and I was able to ask the first group of students that had experienced sort of the the old way and the new way. And they said, I like being able to choose my own goals. I can pick things I'm ready to work on or that matter to me, because sometimes what adults suggest, I don't care about, or it's too hard and I'm not ready for it. And it's okay if adults give me ideas. Like if I can't think of something, I'm happy to have suggestions. Um and I haven't looked back, and it became an approach that I also use in my graduate courses, where I have them self-assess and set a set a weekly goal for themselves, what they want to work on, and they report how they're doing, and I can sort of coach them with that as needed. Um and just so much more growth has happened in both settings, but especially when thinking about my autistic learners, like because they can work through goals and change goals when they want and go, you know what? I actually think I need this one more. Like the metacognitive piece of being able to evaluate for themselves what um where they are and how they feel about that and what they need. I've like I have just seen so much more growth than working on a goal that you know is unimportant in the long run, um, is not aligned with what they want to work on. And we're not gonna move on from this goal because we're not making any progress on it, you know. Um, so that has taught me so much and also taught me about like as a teacher, even if you don't know what something can look like, if you think that pedagogically it is going to be better or it honors human dignity so much more, like try it. Even if it doesn't work, you can always come back to the drawing board, but sometimes it becomes that like transformative change that you're like you're not gonna look back from.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. Views expressed in these chats may not always be the view of Middletown Center. If you'd like to know more about Middletown, you can find us on X at Autism Center on Facebook and Instagram at Middletown Center for Autism. Go easy until next time.