The SPACE Framework For Education with Aoife Munroe and Elaine McGoldrick

In the latest episode of the Middletown Podcast, we chat to Elaine McGoldrick and Aoife Munroe about how they have adapted the SPACE Framework for an education setting. The framework is a neuroaffirming guide for professionals that are supporting autistic people. They share practical tips founded in the framework to guide educators to better understand and support autistic experience. 

Transcript

Welcome And Why SPACE Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome to the Middletown Podcast. I'm Kat Hughes, I'm a researcher at Middletown, and I'm also Autistic. In this episode, we're talking about the Space Framework. It's a really simple, practical framework for professionals working with autistic people. It was originally designed by Dr. Mary Doherty for healthcare professionals and has recently been adapted for education. It's just to Eva Monroe and Elaine McGoldrick, two of the brilliant team who put it together, Middletown's Dr. Rachel Ferguson was another team member. We're very proud to say Elaine and Afa are so passionate about the framework, and I understand why. It's so usable, and from an autistic perspective, it really touches on all of the elements that you'd hope to see included to create a truly affirming environment for autistic students. But Elaine and Eva are educators, and Elaine's autistic herself. They both bring such important perspectives and buckets of enthusiasm. I could have talked to them all day. I hope you enjoy our chat. Elaine

Defining SPACE And Its Domains

SPEAKER_01 1:02

and A, it's so lovely to have you on the podcast. And I suppose I want to start by asking you what exactly is the space framework?

SPEAKER_02 1:10

So I think really the space framework is a useful way of thinking about how we can better meet the needs of autistic students in our classrooms. And I'm very conscious that space framework is bigger than classrooms. But from our terms of where we're coming from, I suppose it is about classrooms and it's about meeting the needs of autistic students, but not only autistic students, maybe neurodivergent individuals as well, from a holistic perspective. And I suppose that's what I like the most about the space framework. It's flexible and like it was originally designed for the healthcare setting, as we know, and a project spearheaded by our co-author, Mary Daugherty. And I suppose the fact that it's an acronym is a really accessible way of thinking about the important aspects that we need to consider, that we need to think about how we're going to embed inclusive practices, think about the environments that are going to support our autistic students to thrive. So I suppose the nuts and bolts of the space framework then is about the acronym. So it's thinking about the sensory elements, predictability, acceptance, communication, and empathy. And then also considering, I suppose, the wider domains that are not included in the acronym. So our physical space, our processing space, and our emotional space. I suppose I like to think of them as signposts to direct our thinking. Elaine, I don't know if you have something else that the way you like to define it.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Well, I suppose kind of coming from it from an autistic point of view, uh, as an autistic academic, if you like, because very often the autistic voice has been missing from an awful lot of the narratives that a lot of our practices in school are actually based on. So for me, the beauty of the space framework is it brings us all onto the same page, quite literally, because it is that like literally can be just that one page in front of me, or look at we got a coffee mug for it. Yeah. So it's it can be as accessible as that. So for me, what it's doing is it's taking autistic experience, those key elements of autistic experience, and reminding us. So that if let's say we're in a staff meeting where we're trying to discuss a particular pupil or we're trying to maybe revisit some policies that we've we have up and running or whatever, that we can bring a problem that somebody might raise back to the framework. And with that, we can kind of dive a little bit deeper and figure out right, if this is a predictability problem, then we can kind of filter down through the questions. So that's the big thing for me that it's an opportunity for shared understanding and bringing us all onto literally that same page.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Lovely.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

But Eva's described the rest of it brilliantly.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

You both did brilliantly. Um and then you mentioned that it was sort of originally developed from sort of a healthcare setting.

Why Bring SPACE Into Schools

SPEAKER_01 3:53

And why did you think that it was important sort of to focus on education now?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Well, I suppose really we know that autistic young people, I suppose in research and in practice and our conversations with autistic young people, they've shared that their school experiences are complex and multifaceted, and a lot of the time are, I suppose, characterized by a lot of negative experiences, more so than positive experiences. Um and generally these experiences come down to what's saying inappropriate environments, a lack of knowledge and understanding from teachers in relation to autism and how best to meet their needs. And I suppose we have to recognise that our classrooms, they are really busy, they're really diverse. And for me, I suppose I was really passionate about the autistic space framework for inclusive education because I had been using it in my practice as a lecturer. Um, and I was signposting people to it and I was adapting it and I wanted to shine a spotlight on it. And when we got the chance, I suppose, to do something about it, I thought this was the perfect time to do it because it gives people, as Elaine said, it gives that one page, everyone can go back to that one page and have a look at it to think about it. It's not prescriptive, it is aligned to all those core, really important elements that we can better support our autistic students with. It's signposts to the concepts, to different papers, to links for further learning. Um yeah, I I like it because it's it's tidy, but it is so solid in the information that it presents. And as Elaine said, we throughout the whole framework and throughout the paper, we prioritise autistic voice in the examples that we were given, in how we spoke about the different domains and how we conceptualized them. And I think that's really important for teachers who perhaps could be very easily overwhelmed because there's so much to consider. And if you're not a specialist in the area and if you are in the mainstream class, as I said, really busy diverse classrooms, you need something that is accessible, but that gives you a synopsis that you can then delve into further. I suppose I like I always say to people, take one domain at a time and think about it. And it gives you a starting point. We're not trying to conquer the world in one day. Um, but I think the framework breaks it down very nicely in terms of what we can think about for the school context.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Absolutely. Here, here. Um for me, I here we go, kind of the autistic side of it. Um very often, as we say, you know, we can talk about, oh, they're having difficulty with X or Y. And Eva knows a lot more about this because a lot of your doctoral work was done on autistic girls and how very often the masking isn't picked up by others, you know. So for me, this um the reason I wanted to kind of get involved in this and do it was to provide that kind of evidence base in terms of the academic literature, that what we're talking about is very solidly founded and peer-reviewed articles, et cetera, et cetera. So we're not plucking this stuff out of thin air. And it is very important because as an autistic person, very often we're we're not given voice, we're not believed, we're not listened to for all of those kind of epistemological reasons and what have you. So for me, this was very, very important to produce that body of knowledge, but not just on its own. It had to come with the support, it had to come with the practical elements. And Karina Byrne, who's one of the other um co-authors on this paper, you know, and is currently working in the school sector sector, sorry, you know, just bringing that kind of hands-on experience as well as all the other elements, because as you know, we'd rachel as well. So, like we, yeah, it that kind of cross-disciplinary approach as well, I think all of which kind of adds to how solid this foundation actually is.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, absolutely. And it's so rare, isn't it? Because I mean, you you will have something that is evidence-based, but is not necessarily practical and it's quite hard for people to use, and certainly doesn't include autistic voice. So to have all of those elements in one piece of work that is also really accessible for people and it's really just sort of one thing for people to remember, and then they can take it from there and use it themselves. I think it's it's it's lovely, it really is.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

I do. I actually I just think it's phenomenal in terms of, as you said there, Elaine, the multidisciplinary aspect of it. Like there was like all of us who were involved brought something different to the paper, but we managed to tie it together, as you said, with autistic voice, with evidence base, with practical strategies, in a really, I think, accessible way in terms of how the paper is presented in its own right. And the joy is that it's of open access. Um, and I always flag it to teachers that you know, this is something, it is research, it's evidence, and you can access it in your schools. You don't have to have a be a part of a program or have an institution. And I suppose that was my priority when we were talking about journals and where we were going to get this published. My priority really was that this was going to go somewhere where it was open access, that we could distribute it, that we can link it to schools, that we can say, here, take a look at this. And I think as well, and you mentioned there, Elaine, is the table, the supplementary materials that we created for it. I you think about teaching and you think about our classrooms, and you think about how busy, and I suppose all the different things that a teacher is trying to do in any one given day. And we recognize that there's a lot involved in making environments that allow anyone to thrive. But having the framework and the table and the supplementary materials, I think is a way that we can have a useful something to check back to to signposts, to have, you know, this is here. I can just go back and have a look at this. And I think it does, it neatly ties a lot of the core aspects that we want to get across together very, very well.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Yeah, absolutely. And then I suppose to listeners will want to get into the weeds of this.

Sensory Needs Beyond The Sensory Box

SPEAKER_01 9:51

So if if you're having to let's get into the weeds of that acronym of space. Um, so starting with the sensory environment, what are some sort of ideas that people might use to improve the environment for students?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

In terms of the sensory, I suppose the first thing is that a sensory experience is something that's very much embodied. So anything that's embodied in an autistic body, we also have the problem of interception, which is how we understand what's going on in our body. So, from a student's point of view, it may be very difficult for them to explain or even demonstrate or say or you know, pin it down to what actually is happening. So that's the very first thing that we need to be aware of: that this is something that's very complex. It's cumulative in terms, so what will work one day may not work the next. That doesn't mean that it wasn't working the first day or that we throw it all out. We have to understand that complexity and all of the different nuances that are involved. So we're not just looking at each of the senses as we know them along with the proprioceptive and intercept and vestibular, all of that. We're also talking about sensory-seeking behaviors, sensory avoiding, whether that person is hyper-vigilant in that moment or hypo-vigilant. So it becomes a very, very complex piece. And in terms of that's I'm not saying that by means of trying to confuse anybody, but just from the point of view of saying that look, what we can only do at any given time is our best, but we can give our best when we're listening, you know, to that autistic voice, where we're allowing for the fact that our experience might be different from the person who's in front of us because of that cumulative factor that that comes into play. So listening, I suppose, really insofar as you can, being open to the fact that okay, it may work today and it may not work tomorrow. Have I I'm not sure that I've covered everything there, Eva. I just suddenly realized I've probably gone way off the point. So do you want to come back in with some?

SPEAKER_02 11:47

No, and I just I think you you hit the nail on the head there, Elaine. I suppose I was thinking about how I would answer this when you were preparing just thinking about it, and the autistic voice, as it we as you very well captured there, is what we need to drill into the most, um, and recognizing that it is embodied, so it's going to be the individual experience that's going to guide whatever we do. Um, but I suppose also maybe coming from a really practical, you know, teacher-classroom perspective, thinking about mitigating. So thinking about, you know, what can we do from the outset? Um, I suppose to do the best we can with what we can do and what's within our control straight away. And I would always say to things like to our teachers, you know, think about the environment. Okay. Yes, of course, we need to have the autistic voice feeding into this because, as I always say to them as well, you may not notice some of the sensory stimuli that an autistic person will notice in the classroom environment, but it's a good starting point. So there's we know there's so many sensory audit tools out there, and I would I always say to people, you know, think about doing one, but think about doing it with the autistic child as well, where possible to have them input into that um sensory audit or that environmental audit. And they're just a starting point. As Elaine very well captured there, it is about going back to the individual and their unique embodied experience of sensory um experiences. But from that, then starting to develop, you know, the environmental audit, starting to develop a sensory plan, a sensory preferences, um, exploring what the individual likes and what they dislike and what causes them stress and what gives them, I suppose, sensory joy, maybe, and incorporating all of those things into that conversation, that bigger piece. As we said, it's not something that we can do in one day. It is about building up a greater understanding of the autistic individual and their sensory plan, their sensory needs, their sensory preferences. And I suppose thinking about that in terms of what are the small things you can do in your classroom straight away, in terms of providing breaks from sensory input if an individual is overwhelmed, providing uh sensory input in the form of different sensory tools and allowing access and free access to those when needed, but also thinking about that sensory piece in terms of policy. And I know Elaine, you mentioned policy at the very start, but thinking about uniform policies, thinking about is that policy inclusive? Does it, you know, does it include accommodations? Does it suggest an alternative if the if the individual experiences sensory discomfort with the uniform? So it feeds into that much much bigger piece. Yes, it is. There's so many different facets to it, I suppose, is what we really want to emphasize. But all time building is small things one at a time, and then hopefully building that comprehensive piece.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

One important piece that I forgot about really is sometimes when we have an unexpected response to something which might have a basis in a sensory experience, that very often that's labelled as challenging behaviour. So it's just an opportunity to take that step back. And and this doesn't happen in the moment, obviously, but like when you're reflecting back on a situation afterwards to try and you know go back a few steps to see well, what was impacting and how how was the cumulative load on that particular student at that particular point in time? Because, you know, the one beautiful thing I think about autistics is we make a lot of sense if you take the time to sort of figure out exactly what it was that was going on. But too often there's just this presumption that, oh, but we did this, so why is the child still acting out? You know, but again, as you say, Ifa, it's little things one at a time, and just that awareness, shifting that awareness um to that broader experience, I think is so important.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I think as well, people get teachers get very overwhelmed with when you talk about sensory information and sound three processing, because I suppose it is an occupational therapy domain, like and our occupational therapists are our professionals in this area, but teachers are often left to think about sensory processing in the classroom context, and sometimes and oftentimes without a lot of support from occupational therapists who are the specialists in this area. And you'll often see teachers saying, Oh, well, we have you know fidget tools and we have a sensory box in the classroom. And I always reflect on that myself, and I'm thinking that's great in some ways, you're providing the opportunities and the access, but there seems there sometimes can be a disconnect that you know, just because we provide this, it means that we're catering for sensory needs. And that's not enough. It is a starting point, but it's not enough. And that's why we're we're I suppose guiding and encouraging teachers to go a little bit deeper with that. Um, and think about you know, it's not just about the sensory box, it's about the bigger environment, and how can we create an environment that is allowing individuals to thrive?

Predictability That Builds Real Safety

SPEAKER_01 16:28

And then the the next letter in the acronym is is P for predictability. So, how does that fit in?

SPEAKER_02 16:37

I suppose with predictability, uh the first thing that comes into my head is visual supports and preparing for unknowns and preparing for change and thinking about how we can embed predictability so that school isn't chaotic because we do know it is chaotic, it's filled with change and transition and competing things requiring our attention. So, how can we embed supports to make that a little bit more predictable? So we think about you know establishing timetables, um, having visual schedules, and they're things that are beneficial for everybody. And why not capitalise on that? Embed it from the start, embed it from the get-go. Think about, you know, can we provide information in advance of change or transitions? Can we maybe provide agreed alternatives to disruptions or changes that we can't avoid? So things like, you know, um, thinking about can we provide a student access to the library or um a base classroom instead of going to assembly? Um, maybe, you know, providing the chance to say, well, if you want to wear a uniform on no uniform day, that's absolutely fine too. Um I always think about the physical space as well, and I know we will talk about the physical space later, but can we make that predictable? You know, can we actually think about our spaces in our schools and do they signpost everyone to, you know, this is what happens here, and this is how this can be navigated? I think that physical space is sometimes forgotten about. Um, we do tend to focus on sensory spaces, but I think the physical space is as important. Things about our behavior. Are we being consistent? Are we being clear? Are we being predictable? Do students know what to expect from us? And I don't think that's really, really powerful. Sometimes we need, like you think in terms of human nature, we do, we sometimes can be very unpredictable. But if we're clear and consistent in our routines, in our classroom procedures, in our protocols, students are going to feel more at ease. They're going to feel calmer because they have a sense of what this person is about or how this person runs their classroom. I think we can't underestimate that.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Absolutely. And I think safety, it has to be the bottom line, any one of the letters of the acronym. It's and it's what makes that student feel safe, not what we consider safety to be. So as I was saying previously, I'd be like the broken record coming back to this point again and again. But we do need that, yes, absolute predictability. But we also need some flexibility with that, because there are days where yes, we can cope with it, and then there are other days where it's all just too much. We also have the situation where, like I was talking about, that big predictable person, you know, that sometimes we can have a situation where somebody comes in and they're not aware of your alternative plan if things go awry, and then that becomes a problem. So, you know, it again it's back to this whole business of viewing this as a whole school problem and a whole school approach that we will take to this and understanding that each individual child who may have that situation where they need that emergency sort of safe, predictable piece where everything else is crashed down around them, or the teacher's out missing, or there's suddenly, I know one of the instances where I was teaching, um, a yoga teacher came in to give them a class in the middle of a test, and that student went to pieces because we never stop a test, you know. So it's those kind of things that that that we can't necessarily predict on behalf of the student, but if we have that safety plan that they can access regardless, then we're doing them a good service in terms of safety.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, yeah, as you as you were talking there, it kind of I put myself back into that feeling of what it was like to be in school. And it was constant feeling of like, oh God, what now? You know, just the chaos and not knowing what was going to happen. And I know that was a thousand years ago that I was in school, and things have improved greatly since then, but still I'm sure that need for predictability and predictability that is sort of individual to the person is so, so important. It makes absolute sense.

Acceptance And Reducing Masking Pressure

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Um, and then the the next letter is A, so that's acceptance. So, so how does acceptance fit in?

SPEAKER_02 20:47

I suppose at the forefront of acceptance for me is about accepting your responsibility as the teacher, as the educator, as the professional, to make the changes, to make the adaptations, to embed the increased practices, to create safe spaces. Um, and there, I suppose there are a number of different ways that we can think about acceptance within the framework. I suppose firstly it's about creating an accepting school environment. Okay, so thinking about adopting a strength-based approach and a rights-based approach and fostering that community of acceptance. And that can be at a whole school level in terms of thinking about how can we um provide students across the school with information and knowledge about you know neurodiversity in general. What is it? How can we better understand each other in the school environment? Um, so developing that school community, I suppose, that accepts difference, that appreciates difference, that sees what everyone can bring to it. I suppose that peer acceptance piece is really important as well. And that's something I came up with in my own PhD research. So I think that really, first of all, is a really positive role to play in terms of acceptance. But by doing that, I suppose we can perhaps enable the individual, the autonomy, to be truly themselves and to accept themselves within that scheme. Environment. But we can expect that to happen if the environment hasn't been set up for it. And I suppose we do want to support every learner to accept themselves. But we need to think about how we can support that to happen. So, yes, the peer piece, but also thinking about helping the individual to understand themselves, understand what autism means for them, self-identity, self-expression. I suppose minimize that reliance on masking. And that's a really complex and big issue. And we could spend a whole other podcast talking about it. But by building in some, I suppose, aspects where we recognize that we need to support autistic individuals to feel comfortable in themselves within their school community. So it is about supporting empowerment, it's about supporting advocacy, it's about equipping students with the knowledge about autism, about themselves, about the school environment, and giving them the skill set to be able to advocate for themselves where possible, to have autonomy over their own experiences. So really, I think what it does come back down to, and a really long-winded way of thinking about this, is listening to the individuals and accepting and validating their decisions and their preferences within the broader school community that is accepting, that is neurodiversity aware, that is supportive and inclusive.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

And I suppose also the wider school community that autism isn't something that stops at 18, as we know. So it's very, very likely that you have autistic teachers, that you'll have autistic parents, autistic schools, staff of every description. But we need to be very, very careful, I think, too, in terms of um, you know, we can have the the checklists that we can tick the boxes on, but we have to constantly, I think, be aware ourselves of how um those those kind of uh unvoiced messages that get out there sometimes. I know Kat, you you probably have the same experience as myself, that we internalize so much. I mean, you know, as autistics, we're given this reputation, oh, we don't have any emotions and we're not interested in other people, and all of that rubbish, which is total misconception, because we're so sensitive to those, you know, the vibes that go out there of disapproval, or you know, yourself, and particularly coming into the teenage years and the hormones and the whole lot, and it gets just so messy. So we can't really kind of um, I suppose, overstate how important it is that we're checking ourselves, that we're checking not just the messages that we're given out in terms of lessons and you know, what's written in a school policy, but how we actually interact with each other and how we acknowledge and recognize each other and make space for each other. Um, but never kind of looking at it that, oh, there's a problem here, we have to fix the autistic individual. No, we have to work together to sort this one out because together we're stronger and better. And that neurodiversity piece has so much more to offer in terms of its strengths.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

I absolutely agree. I think a big part of being autistic in general, but particularly as an autistic teenager, you're so vigilant in terms of like any signal that you get from a person to see if you've misstepped or if there's something that you need to change, or you're like you're constantly checking yourself in relation to other people. So, yeah, to be able to bring some acceptance within that is so so important. Um and then the next letter, I'm so proud of myself that I feel like I have got this in the right order as a very decisive.

Communication As A Two-Way Process

SPEAKER_01 25:27

The next letter is C for communication. Um, how does that fit into the framework?

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Um, I suppose, like everything else, there's so many myths around communication, and a lot of those have been challenged in terms of academic focused research in the more recent times, um, Crompton as L and all of that. So basically, what we're talking about with a lot of the research that's coming out now is that yes, we're equally successful in terms of communication when we're communicating with the same neurotype. But when you mix the neurotypes, things kind of confuse a little. But traditionally, we've always looked at it that you know, it's the autistic person. Again, we're back to this autistic person has the problem. That's not the case. This is two-way, you know. So we're talking about two-way communication. So um, I suppose also we have to be really, really careful that we're not kind of associating uh abilities and needs with labels. So somebody who's verbal or non-verbal, it is just so, so important that we look at communication in terms of, you know, a very holistic thing. I know um Rebecca Wood has some great research where she went into a school and she found, you know, I think the title of the piece was the wrong kind of noise. So where you have students who are communicating very clearly, but because the way they're communicating doesn't line up with what's expected, it's missed and it's not considered. And like that is just so crucial that we accept communication as it's offered. So that might be a brunt, it might be, you know, a shrug of the shoulders, a look away, whatever it is, that it's not just the phrases that we're trying to teach them that communicate, that's not where communication lies. And we and it is so important for us to understand that because if we're focusing all the time on compliance, then what's happening here is that we're ignoring preferences, um, denying autonomy. And when you think in terms of safeguarding later on, or that's how we later on, safeguarding full stop, you know, if we're not allowing communication, if we're not allowing children to say no, if we're not allowing children to express negative emotion, then how do we how can they possibly safeguard themselves, you know, from a world in which they are very, very vulnerable?

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Just coming from a purely practical perspective as well, in terms of what teachers can do straight away, I'm always very conscious of that. I think thinking about, you know, reflecting on our own interactions and our own communication within the classroom context. So thinking about, you know, is your communication, you know, is it demanding too much of an individual? Thinking about using that clear, unambiguous communication. Be straight, you know, say it as it is, say less, show more. So that's what we we mentioned that in the paper. But thinking about, you know, supplementing your verbal communication with your other um modes of communication. So as Elaine said, you know, communication is gesture, it is visuals. So use all of that to supplement your verbal and your spoken language. Um, I suppose communicating with parents and guardians as well. And I suppose sometimes parents and guardians provide us with such fantastic insight where we know maybe we haven't built up a strong enough relationship with the autistic individual themselves to be able to fully understand what they are trying to communicate with us. And that's where we bring in, and not always, not that alone, but thinking about parents and guardians in general. They can provide us with that insight that maybe we don't have access to in the school context, or maybe the stuff going on in the home context that is different to the school context. And that's where that parent guardian communication piece comes in as well. Anything else, Elaine?

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Um, I'm thinking uh in terms of like that capacity to communicate, because that can fluctuate a lot for those of us who are here. We go again, but you know, that sense of when you're overwhelmed and suddenly you can't access words, um we become maybe semi-speaking or we lose the capacity to speak and express ourselves. And for people who are used to us, maybe being the chatterbox in the class or whatever, it seems ridiculous. It's so counterintuitive that suddenly you can't speak. So that would be one thing, I suppose. And that like communication also depends an awful lot on trust. So if you're with a trusted person, somebody who's going to give you the time to maybe formulate those sentences, that processing space that we'll we'll come to later on again. Um, like that is so hugely important. And uh I think things like you know, when when Eve was talking about parent communication, um, allowing for the fact that the parent may also be autistic, because that that's my own study area. Um, but like that we don't necessarily always do that. So sometimes we can end up in tricky situations because maybe the teacher is expecting a parent to be very supportive, but the parent can't see what's the problem with that because the parent is looking at it from this autistic perspective, where this is, if you like, this is our norm. It may not be your norm, but this is how we try it. So you, you know, it it becomes very complex. And I hope I'm not making this all sound like mission impossible because we're raising all of these complexities, but it is just to catch yourself maybe sometimes in the moment and double checking that okay, this double empathy piece. Am I viewing this from what I'm able to do, or am I actually looking at what's going on for the person sitting opposite me, whether that's the child, the classroom assistant, a fellow teacher, or a parent, you know, it goes for all of us.

unknown 30:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

That's yeah, and I think that's that's one of the things that I really love about the space framework in general. It's every element, it's a chance to sort of take a step back and look at how I'm reacting in this situation, what are my assumptions in this situation, and sort of to challenge those if

Empathy And Learning From Autistic Voices

SPEAKER_01 31:10

needs be. And I said that that brings us on to the the final element of space, so empathy. Um, so how does that fit in?

SPEAKER_02 31:18

I think Elaine, you need to lead into this because you were on a you were on a real flow there with double empathy. So bring us into empathy.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

I've probably covered an awful lot of it already, haven't I? Yeah, sorry. But so much of this, you know, it's interwoven and and and there's no escaping that. But the empathy piece is hugely important for all of us, I think, you know, um, because for so long we've misunderstood autism as not having any empathy. And I know for myself and lots of people in my generation, we wouldn't have even considered ourselves autistic because we knew we had empathy, you know, and it's ruled out so much. And even in terms of girls going for diagnosis to this day, there are still clinicians who misunderstand that point and think, oh, you can't be autistic because X, Y, and Z, you know. So yeah, it's a really, really important one for those of us who are autistic in the sense that it has been so misunderstood all along, if you like. So understanding what empathy is for you, what it is for your students. Um, and like Kat Kat was saying, that taking that opportunity to go back and look, and that that's again coming back to the frame or coming back to that being on the one page, which bit would help me understand that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Go on if that was fantastic. No, I think you you you captured that very well. I would always say to people as well, make sure and to I suppose to engage with the autistic perspective. And I think this is really an important point to raise here. Um, and it's not just about in this section of the space framework, it's it's throughout the space framework. But I would always say to people, you know, read autistic blogs, read research conducted with autistic people, have a conversation um with an autistic teacher, with an autistic friend, with someone who wants to speak about all of this with you, and capture that and and bottle it and learn from it. Um, because there's so much to be learned from engaging directly, coming and interacting and learning from the person who is experiencing this. Um I suppose you know, sometimes texts that we read or books that we read or trainings that we go to, they miss out on that and they fail to capture that. And I think that's one of the most valuable points that I could emphasize here is you know, to really understand that, engage with autistic perspectives.

unknown 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well said, and I I I'd add to that just in terms of you know, the blogs and the websites and all the rest that's out there, you know, for in terms of my kind of self-identification, it only started to happen when I started reading what other autistic people had written. And the extraordinary thing is it's my story, but in their words, you know, and it and and and that sense of tribe as well, Kat, isn't there when you do recognize that suddenly you're not the odd one out anymore. God, everybody you think that is, you know, it's phenomenal and it's really exciting because there's so much joy to being autistic, and that's not always included in you know, those kind of textbook presentations that are maybe deficit focused. You know, there's a lot of fun in being autistic, so just even uh making sure that that's a key message when we're talking about acceptance.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Yeah, most definitely that is correct.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

He says adding it in.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

Um, that's amazing. That's

Physical Processing And Emotional Space

SPEAKER_01 34:54

lovely. And so we've worked through the the acronym of space, but then yeah, I know you you look at space in sort of a broader context as well. So, how does that work?

unknown 35:04

If you don't mind explaining that.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Well, I suppose, and I alluded to this earlier, so I'll lead us off on this is the idea of physical space. Um, so thinking about the physical environment in which you're operating in. So think about the classroom, the broader skill environment, the home if it's the home. And I suppose a lot of our research says that appropriately structured physical environments can increase comfort levels, and as Elaine said earlier, that sense of felt safety. Okay, and that's really, really important. Um, and you know, we do have some research and we have some narratives from autistic people to show that you know having spaces and physical spaces organized in logical logical order, informed by their identified purpose, can create that felt safety, that sense of safety and create that more inclusive environment. So thinking about like your zones within the school, recognizing that different parts of school serve different purposes, you know, having simple organizational layouts that are not there to overwhelm, but are there to guide. Um, thinking about, you know, I always think about this in terms of post-primary classrooms and post-primary schools, how chaotic they are at lunchtime or moving between classes when the bell goes. And I always think this is something that can be so easily solved if we have easily legible and defined roots with maybe a system in place, would that not minimizing stress and overwhelm instantly if we actually think about and sometimes these are the forgotten elements, I suppose, because we we sometimes get so bogged down into our classrooms that we forget that the school is a wider physical space. Um, so thinking about that, thinking about visual clutter. And I'm not saying here have a completely blank canvas in our classrooms, but think think about the purpose of the visual stimuli or the environment and what purpose is it serving. If we reflect on that, we can, I suppose, design our environments to allow people to engage, to attend, to concentrate on the relevant and support that idea of you know, we can disregard the irrelevant, we can reduce the stimuli, and we can we can direct and we can support. So we we're minimizing those other stressors that can sometimes impede on, let's say, the academics, the social, all of those other things we need to consider when we're in school contexts. Think about, and it goes back to you know, going um moving through schools at break times, thinking about that physical space and that proximity to other people. You know, if we have those defined legible roots, maybe we can minimize that. Maybe we're not going to be bumping off as many people. Of course, there's an element that we can't always control and we can't solve all problems with systems and all of that, but we can acknowledge it and we can see, you know, what can we do to minimize? What can we do to support? Um, and then I suppose my last point on this one is about, you know, the idea of safe spaces or wreath byte spaces, um, you know, having somewhere to go, having somewhere to um reset, to regulate. And it's not just sensory rooms I'm talking about, because sometimes when we talk about schools and we talk about autism, people jump straight into sensory rooms. And sensory rooms are a whole other realm um where they need a lot of deep reflection as to what our sensory rooms look like in our schools. But thinking about in addition to sensory rooms, can we provide escape or rest rooms or zen zones or quiet spaces? Um and that might look different in every school. Um and I know in my research, the library came up as a place, specialist classrooms came up as a place. So acknowledging that these can be informal, but I think we always need to try and have a formal space because the informal spaces can sometimes be used for other purposes, they might have limited access. So I think we do really need to think about that physical space in the school, not just in the classroom, but in the broader school context as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Well said. Well said. I suppose the the piece I'd add to that is an escape route and how important the escape route is for the student. Because if you think of the fight and the flight, um, flight is very often something that will happen without necessarily it's not necessarily even a conscious decision. So if we have planned for that in advance, so if let's say the student is sitting close enough to an exit that they don't have to go past the teacher and the entire class if they need to leave, that there's an understanding that the student may need to leave without necessarily asking permission, and that it isn't something as a coming back to it again, that if you're in that traumatized sort of okay, now it's all about to go situation where you have to take yourself, where you have to remove yourself from the situation, that that's understood school-wide because otherwise we run into all sorts of problems. And maybe for you know, and I it comes up a lot like that the children will actually try and escape, maybe go to the bathroom and take an extended bathroom break. And in that time, they may well be able to regulate and may be capable of coming back, but they may not be. But there has to be an understanding that this is an essential coping mechanism for that student, and that has to be built into whole school understanding. You know, sometimes people can be a little bit wary of oh, but you're all going to do that, and they're, you know, we have to stop this comparison piece and we have to stop this idea that you know students are going to take advantage. We have to meet students' needs. Like we're all trying to prioritize mental health and well-being. And these are the sort of practices that set the ground for that.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah, absolutely. And you you reminded me of an event that I was at a couple of years ago that was sort of a mixed autistic, non-autistic event. And obviously, there was there was free seating, so we could sit wherever we wanted. It was quite a big space, and all of the autistic people were sat sort of clustered near exits. Exits. Because we we all knew that we might at some point need to leave, and we wanted to be able to leave in a sort of safe, easy way. And I think most of us didn't, but we knew that we had the option, and that was possibly why we didn't. So yeah. So I think if if autistic adults are able to create that environment for themselves, it makes sense that we should look at how autistic children and young people can create those environments and be allowed to live in those sorts of environments for themselves. Yeah, it makes a huge amount of sense. It's perfect. And then there's a second context that you you looked at the framework in, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 41:12

And Mary would always be really passionate about processing space and wait time. Okay. So, you know, recognizing that there are processing differences. Um, and autistic individuals have different ways of processing information to neurotypical individuals. So it does a lot of the time that we could talk about different aspects of this, but a lot of the time it boils down to that wait time piece, you know, wait time to process instructions, to respond to questions, to make decisions. And I suppose I would always say to people, you know, this is a huge big area, and monotropism is really at the core of it. So I would always say to people, go and read a little bit. Um, start to get a sense of it, because it's a huge area and it's it's a lot to take in when you're you're learning about monotropism, but it explains the different processing styles, experienced by autistic individuals, and it can give you that insight that I think you're not going to get anywhere else unless you read about monotropism. So I suppose that would be my recommendation and the processing space, because I'm not going to sum it up as eloquently as if you take the time to engage with it.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Totally. You know how yes, absolutely. Um, I think there's there's a lovely theory out there as well, the tendril theory, if you've ever come across it. So, this idea that as an autistic person, if first of all, we kind of need to build up to the interest in something. And that's us if you like sending out all these tendrils, and they go into all sorts of different places, and you know, and they completely embody us because particularly if we're in a flow state, nothing else is registering. You're just completely in the zone and in your element and loving every moment of it. And then if we need to sort of shift out from that into something else, if we're doing it naturally, um, you know, we kind of tend to want to finish, or we tend to need a finishing point that we can't, and then we start to pull those tendrils back in. And that can take time. So then we're comfortable, and then we can start thinking about what's next and moving on to the next, maybe activity or whatever. And that is so foreign to what happens in school. Bell rings were changing, you know, a teacher walks in, it changes every all these changes constantly. So those are literally like those tendrils being broken off, and it does it, it it really is kind of almost traumatic sometimes. It does feel like a wrench and terribly annoying. And it's the thing is that you, you know, you may not have the capacity to be polite about it all the time. So, you know, if you can understand that that's actually how our brains work, and that's actually how we do our best work as well, then it is really, really worth the time. Just giving those little indications that things are about to change, you know, um having kind of transition time plans for working from one thing into another. Um, what I used to do back in the day when I was. Resource teaching was at the end of my sessions, there was five minute iPad time. And that was sacrosanct, that was set in stone. And if there was ever an interruption and that was missed, there was an IOU written on the board. So the next time the child came in, they got it, you know, and it's that kind of consistency. But what that did for my students was it gave them that breathing space between finishing the work with me, leaving my room and going back into their classroom. Now I know that's not, you know, in terms of how practical that is in a very busy classroom, but there may be alternatives, very quick little tricks that you can come up with and think of in that situation, you know.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

And I think that raised a really valid point there. And something I when I reflect on, I'm in and out of school, it's a lot part of my job. And I just think about the timetables that we have, particularly, we'll say, in our junior side of primary into upper primary, and the amount of changes we're saying, you know, tension for short periods of time, so short tasks, short lessons, short games. But that ends up in lots and lots of transitions. Um, and I always think about what are the implications? Yes, we want to have activities and we want to have lessons that are not overly long, overly burdensome, but you also have to think about the transition. Have you thought about the transition in having all your 15-minute sessions? Or are you just expecting the child to go from 15 minutes into the next 15 minutes into the next 15 minutes? So think about that. Yes, we think about transitions, we think about moving from one class to another or going from classroom to lunchtime, but think about the transitions within your class timetable too. And think about have you actually thought about this and have you a mechanism in place to support this?

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah. And that's the processing space piece comes in there as well. Because by the time you know the autistic person has sort of figured out one, what is it that you want for me? I very often find myself, if somebody's speaking to me, I'll I'll say sorry. And before they have a chance to repeat, I'll have answered the question because there's that just delay in processing, you know, that goes on. Or my daughter talked once about being in a class and the teacher was talking, and it took her the bones of five minutes to realize that the teacher was speaking Irish, that it wasn't even English, that what was going on. So it is literally there is that gap of processing that goes on. And in terms of transitioning from one activity to the next, that also plays in. Because by the time you've told them what do they need to take out, what has to be on the desk, you know, allow for a little stop gap on that getting it all together and getting it out. And then you're suddenly on to the next thing. And I haven't actually finished this. And then that cumulative buildup of pressure and anxiety, and yeah, you can see why we need an escape route every once in a while.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

So then there's a third element. Um, so so do you want to talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 46:43

So, in terms of emotional space, again, we go back to the whole taking it back to the sensory and the interoceptive and understanding what's going on in our bodies. As neurodivergent autistic people, we're not always able to identify emotion in the same way that other people are. So, to be aware of Alexotymia, where we can't necessarily pin down what it is that we're feeling in any given. It feels off, but we don't quite know why. And for us to be able to say to you, well, oh, I feel X, Y, or Z, that it can't happen in that sort of neuronormative way that you would expect in a classroom. Um, so that would be the first thing that we process and express emotion very, very differently. So that may feel that may seem like that we're not responding in the way that you're expecting us to, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we're not responding. Again, we need to kind of that we're back again to this double empathy and checking kind of perspectives and all of that. Um, because Anifa kind of referred to this earlier on, because sometimes the individual has that difficulty in expressing emotion or showing emotion, whatever way you care to put it, it can be very important to listen. If a parent is coming in and describing a situation at home that's very, very stressful after school, that just because the student isn't demonstrating that in class doesn't mean it isn't valid. It's it, you know, and again, that's that whole masking piece. And as I said, we could be we could be here forever with that. But kind of I like certainly from my own experience as teacher, as parent, there's been this sense of that's ridiculous. They're fine at school. And that comes across so much in the literature that in terms of parenting. Um, but it's so so valid because you know, for very many of our students, it's so difficult to express or to even expect them to be in a situation where you in a position of power as a teacher that you're going to challenge this, you're going to have the wherewithal to be able to do this. And the chances are the children who are expressing it are the children who are seen as the ones with the challenging behavior and the ones that are causing all the problems and in terms of classroom management, if you like. So just to be very aware that um allowing for that external voice, the parent, and also, you know, parents have so much knowledge to bring to the equation, apart from anything else, because they're dealing with similar stresses and pressures at home, and they may have found ways that work for this individual that need, you know, could be incorporated in school. So, yeah, I suppose that would be. Do you want to add something to that? I've another couple of points here, but I couldn't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

Yeah, no, I suppose thinking about you, and you mentioned there about you know autistic individuals experiencing and expressing those emotions differently sometimes than what would be, I suppose, um expected in terms of a neurotypical or a neuronormative lens. I suppose what I just want to signpost, you know, for teachers to think about that and think about you know how they're responding to that in their classrooms. So thinking about the techniques that you use to support or soothe a neurotypical individual might not be the ones that are going to work very well for an autistic individual. And they might not be appropriate and they might indeed add to the overwhelm. So you have to be really important about thinking about this. Um, I suppose where you can start to think about this is about you know building those trusting relationships, developing those emotionally safe relationships. So getting to know the student, and that's what it all boils down to at the end of the day. So getting to know them, getting to know their interests, building in that one-to-one time where you can get to know them, providing safety, being patient, um, providing feedback and support, recognizing maybe that sometimes it's not about stepping in and providing the soothing words or um providing the touch comfort. Maybe it's about just sitting there and being beside. Maybe it's about allowing and facilitating access to somewhere where there is nobody just to reset and to regulate. It's about recognizing that your words might add to the overwhelm. So avoid that unnecessary ambush of words and um sensory input and just provide time and space. And sometimes it is as simple as that. It is about just sitting back and saying, I just need to take a moment and let this autistic person experience or available the supports that they need, not me imposing the supports that I want to give.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Yeah, well said. Well said. It comes back to that pause again, doesn't it? And it's not we're we're not talking about a situation where you know something's happened and we're just going to ignore it and we're never going to speak about it. It's a case of, okay, let's safety first in terms of and regulation and that and that child's sense of safety. And because in providing that we build the trust, you know, and then ultimately, once things have calmed down afterwards, you can have a very straightforward conversation about what did happen when all of the emotion is taken out of it, if you like. So we're not saying, you know, this is kind of carte blanche to let these kids do every, you know, whatever comes to mind. That's not what it is. And I think sometimes there's kind of almost um an unconscious kind of fear of that, I think, within teaching, that if we let one thing go, the whole thing is going to unravel. If we set dangerous precedents for one, then what do we do with everybody else? But, you know, we would we would plead, I suppose, that in doing that, that that is exactly what neuroaffirmative practice is about, about it, you know, accepting that, yeah, there are going to be challenges, but boy, there are going to be rewards as well, you know, and the rewards there for all of us. So it is about stepping out of the comfort zone. It's not an easy ask of anybody, but hopefully trying to sum it all up in terms of that space profile, or sorry, using space even as a profiling tool for individuals. And I know they're doing that in the Brothers of Charity and Cork. Um, you know, it because sometimes we're sort of very often accused of, oh, you're only speaking about, you know, people who have normal range of intelligence or, you know, have certain skills. No, this is also working, you know what I mean, at every level across the board in so many different settings. So give it a go.

What Teachers Can Do Tomorrow

SPEAKER_01 52:51

Um, so you both have lots of experience as educators. Um, so I'm wondering, um, are there elements of space that you think educators could sort of use immediately? Because I know people will be listening and wanting to sort of go, all right, right, tomorrow when I go into class, what can I take from this? So, are there sort of practical elements that people can immediately use?

SPEAKER_02 53:11

I would say it's filled with practical elements, but I would say your starting point should be determined by the children or the students that you're working with. So, what is the area that's going to have the most immediate impact for making that student's school experience more positive? Um, so I would say choose one. So, identify one as your starting point. Don't try and do the whole framework within a month. So choose one, implement something. Look at the list, the table that we have with suggestions. It doesn't have to be from that table. That's just the starting point to help you think about these domains in real concrete practical terms. So think about the domain, think about the student that you're supporting, think about what one thing I could do that might have a positive impact. Reflect on it. Has it worked? Think about it. It's not about trying to do it all at once, it's about making, I suppose, making the changes to practice takes time. Um and I would be very feel very strongly about the idea that if we're to embed things gradually, we're more likely to make sure that they're going to stick, that it's more effective, and that it's sustained practice. This is not just a one-stop plug it in, and that's that. This is about practice over time. It's about thinking about things from a whole school level, from a classroom level, from an individual level. Um, and it is about sustained practice. It's not a one-stop gap. Um, yeah, so I would say take your time, choose something that's going to have the most immediate impact um or influence for the learners in front of you and work from there.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

I I suppose just in terms of taking it more broadly, maybe um maybe sitting down with the student in terms of any one of those and having that if the student, if that's where, you know, where you're at, or maybe with the parent, whatever. But like that, this is a framework that can be used in so many different contexts and in so many different ways, but it's never finished. You know, inclusivity isn't ever going to be a job done. It has to involve that constant keeping our keeping each other on our toes, you know, watching our own language in terms of the conversations that we're having in the staff room, which is a huge factor in terms of teachers being able to disclose whether they're autistic or not. There are so many stereotypical ideas of autism out there. And I think just even to have the conversation, to be aware to start, but make the start. That would be, like Eva says, and what hopefully what we've done with the autistic space framework for inclusive education is that we've given you kind of a bit of a roadmap there, if you like, for where you can go and a reference point to come back to when you get stuck.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

And I suppose I just want to slightly build on that. You just raised something in my head there, Lane, when you were speaking. When we think about, you know, what was the purpose of it? Yes, it's to improve practice and to make changes, but that's not just at an individual level. Of course, individual teachers, we'd encourage you to, you know, to use it to engage with it, but bring it to the whole school community. Yes. Have those meetings, use it as an opportunity to maybe review policies which we spoke about previously. Use it as an opportunity to maybe start a community of practice in your school where you take one domain at a time and talk about it, and multiple people are embedding things in their practice. It can be used at any level, depending on because we're very conscious, I suppose, that schools are all at different stages on their journey to inclusive education. Um, and schools all have very different cultures. Um, so you know, maybe it is about you working individually, maybe it is about you working with a small group of teachers in your school, or maybe it is about your whole school community embedding and adopting the space framework. So I think, as I said, I think I mentioned earlier, it's not prescriptive, but it is to be used as a starting point.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Absolutely. And the importance of leadership in all of this as well, you know, can't be underestimated because you know, we need facilitators for change, and that needs to come from the top as well as from the bottom up, because very often within schools, you'll have individuals, and we see this in the research from parents, like that where problems arise within schools, it generally tends to be sort of like that there are individuals who are doing amazing jobs and there's outstanding practice out there, but that's not necessarily reflected in every classroom within that school. So it is a very, and that is much easier to achieve if you have the support of the leaders within that school, but not just support in the sense of, oh yeah, go on, you can do that, that can be your little project. We need them to buy into this. This has to be a lived, embodied experience for all of us.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

Beautiful.

Advice To Our Younger Teacher Selves

SPEAKER_01 57:45

Um, and then my very last question, anyway, um, is if you could go back and give yourself some advice as educators, um, what advice would you give?

SPEAKER_02 57:57

Lisa. I think for me it would be to prioritize building relationships, to recognize that regulation always needs to come before academics and that small changes can be very, very powerful.

unknown 58:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

Wow. Very kindly send us the questions in advance. And I'm still racking my brain as to how do I answer that one. I think it's difficult because I wasn't aware as an educator that I was autistic. It was literally in the final year of my teaching career that I identified and was confirmed as autistic. Yeah. So it's very difficult to say what would I have gone back and said. But looking back in it, there are definitely aspects of my gut instinct that were leading me in the right direction, shall we say? But that unfortunately for those of us who are autistic and don't know we're autistic, very often we're trying extra hard to do the things that are prescribed as being the right things to do, you know. So I suppose that would be my thing, really. That that connection, Pete, like Eva said, absolute priority. If you can connect, then we can learn. But you know, without it, how does it happen? You know, and that idea of saturating children in success would be kind of a motto that I brought with me through my career. So, really, if I could have kind of embraced that earlier on and felt uh empowered to do that at an earlier stage in my career, that would have been the big thing. But uh yeah, connection.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. The views expressed in these chats may not always be the view of Middletown Centre. If you'd like to know more about Middletown, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Middletown Centre for Autism. Go easy until next time.