The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
The Middletown Podcast features interviews with leading thinkers and practitioners across the autistic and autism community. Conversations are autism-affirming and neurodiversity-informed with a focus on the lived experience and knowledge of our community. Episodes highlight issues impacting autistic people and we share ideas for family members and school staff who are providing support.
The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
Understanding Autistic Play And Break Times with Jenny Gibson
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Break time can look like freedom from the outside, but for many autistic students it can feel like the most demanding part of the day: unstructured social rules, sensory overload, and nowhere obvious to recharge or recover. In this episode, we're joined by Jenny Gibson, a researcher at the University of Cambridge, to get specific about why play matters and what schools can do to make playtime and lunch time genuinely inclusive.
Welcome And Why Play Matters
SPEAKER_01Welcome to the Middle Hand Podcast. I'm Kat Hughes and we're a searcher at Middle Hand and I'm also autistic. In this episode, we're talking about play. I chatted Jenny Gibson, who's a brilliant researcher from the University of Cambridge. Jenny's been doing really innovative neurodiversity-informed work for a long while now. As part of her work on play, she's a great chapter in the book. It takes all kinds of minds, focused on break times. I wanted to find out more about this work and how we can support better break times for autistic students. I think break times can often be a forgotten part of the school day. So it was great to have a chance to pick Jenny's brain. I hope you enjoy our chat.
Play As Joy Rights And Recovery
SPEAKER_01Um, Jenny, it's so lovely to have you on the podcast and have a chance to chat with you. I wanted to start by asking a huge question. Um, why is play so important?
SPEAKER_00A brilliant question, thank you. Um, I think play is important because it's enjoyable, it's one of the good things in life. So I think it's part of what playing is part of what it means to live a good life, whatever age you are. And I think it's important from that perspective. It's also important um because it's um it's a human right, um, particularly when we're thinking about children in our conversation today. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child sets out the right to play and recuperation, rest and access to culture as part of um children's rights. So I think we um should honour play as a good thing and something to uphold that all of us should be able to enjoy. And then from the more psychological point of view, I think play is important from the perspective of um providing recuperation, providing rest and recovery in response to things that have been stressful in daily life, and in particular in childhood plays an opportunity to explore the things that have happened to us, um explore those emotions. So there's lots of um research around children um understanding and processing what's happened to them through playful context, and it's also been closely linked to social and emotional well-being as well. Um again, I think children and adults alike um play and play behaviors that don't have an immediate um purpose that's obvious to a kind of goal-directed sense, but you're just doing something because it's fun, those sorts of activities are really um related to building up friendships which support mental and emotional health. So that yeah, I think there are lots of reasons to be excited about play.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely.
Moving Beyond Deficit Views Of Play
SPEAKER_01And then obviously, our understanding of autism and autistic experience has changed dramatically over the last few years. How has that sort of or has that been reflected in how we understand autistic play?
SPEAKER_00So a lot of the um academic discourse um as well as the clinical discourse, so the things that people are saying about autistic play um going back quite a few years have been really deficit focused. So there's this idea of um a comparison where autistic children come off worst. Um, so uh, you know, saying um this is the neurotypical or the non-autistic norm, and autistic children are not quite meeting that standard. So there's been a lot of traditional emphasis on finding what's different and framing that difference in a kind of negative way. And more recently, um, that started to be challenged, which is the good thing, so that we're now thinking um about difference in a more qualitative way. So things that are different for one another might um be different in ways that are equally valid, and that kind of discussion of autistic play is more common now. So I can talk a bit more about that if that's helpful. Yeah, so um one of the things that it's been really interesting to see um coming out of um autistic activism and the neurodiversity movement has been that um emphasis on listening to autistic people and saying what they've uh seeing what they've got to say about their own uh lives and experiences. And when that's been applied to play, it's been very interesting because some of those things that have been sort of classically seen as um deficits, like the tendency to get really deeply focused on one particular topic and to nerd out about everything uh within a relatively narrow domain, or to enjoy doing the same thing over and over again, um, is seen as part of um an enjoyable um play state where you might be linked to the idea of flow where you're really getting into something and the time is passing and you're not noticing it, and seeing that as a beneficial thing, seeing that as something that does promote that rest and recovery and that joy in life, um, and perhaps helping to manage worries, anxiety, and emotional dysregulation as well. So rather than seeing those deep focus types of play as things that we should perhaps be encouraging to broaden out, we're now thinking actually these can be beneficial forms of play. And um that's been a key shift in thinking, I think.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, that's so interesting. And
Break Times As Regulation And Relief
SPEAKER_01then I know that your work has has focused on break times and sort of like lunch times and those moments to play, and which thinking back to to my childhood as an autistic adult were times, it just filled me with horror because, as you said, they weren't structured for for how I wanted to be in the world at all. So, how has our understanding of that sort of break time experience changed?
SPEAKER_00I think uh well there's lots that I could say here. So I think that the understanding that um we need different things available for different people and different preferences and different needs has increased quite a lot. I think perhaps in practice, we haven't quite seen as much as a shift as we'd like to, but there's starting to be a discourse around break time being an important part of the school day, on a par with other kinds of learning and social opportunities in the day, and that it deserves just as much attention to getting it right as a maths lesson would. So for me, that shift um in the kind of importance and status of play and the attention that we should be paying to it for all children has um increased um in a really positive way. So we're thinking about that differently now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really interesting. And then so something that that kind of occurs to me is like it if if you don't have the structures in place in sort of class time in terms of allowing a child and a young person to regulate, presumably the the times outside class time, it's very hard for them to do anything other than try to regulate. Because I know that was my own experience in school. It was like break times were there for me to try and avoid everyone and like bolster myself up enough to be able to go back into class and sit still and learn in the way that was asked for me. So presumably there's a balance between the two where they really interact.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there is, and um, I'd love to see classrooms have more affordances for self-regulation um if possible, but where in the absence of that, playtime and break times really do become a break, and having that space and time out to do the things that help you to regulate the best and to support children and learning about themselves and that self-regulation process is really important as well. So for some children, having that complete withdrawal. Um, I think I identify with you in that. Like, let's go to the library, sit in the corner, I'll be fine with my book. Thank you very much. That works for some children, but for others, the chance to let off steam and run rounds as fast as possible. Um, playing in a chase game or get building something will be equally important. And a lot of um what we're trying to um communicate through our research and what we're finding from that is that we really hope that educators can tune into those individual needs and almost put a kind of menu of options for playtime and break time that um children can opt into and be supported to understand their own self-regulation needs and play preferences.
Choice Boundaries Sensory Friendly Spaces
SPEAKER_01I know you you focus on the sort of the idea of building autonomy and an agency for for young people around that break time. Are there things that educators can do to try and bolster that?
SPEAKER_00I think so. So I think offering choice is a really important part of that. And um I've I've been thinking about this a lot, and sometimes when we think about free play, and I think free play is very, very important, but there's a part, there's a role that adults have, I think, in setting up the structure for that free play. So play doesn't just mean chaos, there will be some boundaries, even if they're quite broad boundaries that need to be set up. So I feel that to promote children's agency and choice, um, it is on the adults who are curating that space to think about where are those choices happening, what's available, um, rather than trying to channel everyone in the same way or to just, you know, let everything happen and think that it's not really their responsibility. So it sounds um perhaps it sounds a bit counterintuitive to say that to promote agency and autonomy, we need the adults to be thinking about the boundaries and the qualities and properties of the space, but I think we we really do. I also think um because for neurodivergent children, um the sensory properties of a play environment are so important, having a really good understanding of the sensory environment, you know, sort of doing a sensory audit of break times could be a really interesting thing to do. So starting from how we signal there's going to be a break time, um, is it a noisy distressing loud bell or other kind of behavioural cues or other things that signal that it's time to transition into playtime? And then thinking about um the properties of the play spaces available. So, are you next to a busy road? Could some screening be put up to kind of um protect children from noise and um potentially pollution and all those sorts of things that are coming up? Um, how many children are in the space that wants and what impact does that have on noise? Is the differentiation in the space of are there quiet corners that people can retreat into? Um, what does that tactile environment look like and so on? So I I feel that um to make the most of playtime spaces and structure come to mind as quite important things, and then I am also on a campaign against organized fun. Um, I don't know, you know, that the idea that children should be kind of forced into structured activities at playtime is really bad news, I think. And while it's good that there might be some structured activities on offer, there needs to be choice to opt out of those as well. And there needs to be variation um so that children can get to try different things and find out what is right for them.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. And you mentioned kind of the like almost having sort of a menu of options. Are there things that would immediately occur to you to have on that menu, or is that is it so individual that it's almost kind of hard to bring up?
SPEAKER_00I know I think there are some things that are typical for most schools. So I think the options can be sort of outdoor play, join in a structured space um game with rules like football. It might be outdoor play as an option with loose manipulatable parts. Um children can kind of do den building and things like that, and typically perhaps an indoor or a quieter space. So just having kind of three options, like less structured outdoor play, game with rules, outdoor play, um, and a quieter indoor space might be a really good place to start. That I think many, perhaps not all, but many schools might feel that they can offer at least that level of differentiation.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant.
Forest School Lessons For Autistic Wellbeing
SPEAKER_01And I know in in the the brilliant chapter that you written in the the It Takes All Kinds of Minds book, um you mentioned forest schools as sort of a really good example of how things can work for autistic students. So, what is it about forest schools that can be so healthy?
SPEAKER_00I think it's important to start off by saying that you know one size never fits all. So this is not going to be a solution for all autistic children. But we were really interested in forest school as um a context that many autistic children do tell us they feel comfortable and able to make choices and have fun. Because I think forest school pedagogy has that kind of built-in autonomy and agency right from the start. So it's quite different than typical classroom scenarios. There is much more freedom. Um, and in the practices, they often talk about rituals. So you might have a kind of gather around the campfire to start with kind of ritual and decide on the kind of activities and tasks for the morning, and then you might go off and do your thing and then come back to that same ritual. So that idea that patterns and rituals are built in alongside a great um degree of freedom is really interesting. I also think the environmental properties of being closer and more connected to nature for many autistic individuals is more soothing than being in a classroom with bright lights or being next to a noisy road with lots of traffic or kind of hard concrete. And while those um properties of nature can be soothing and restorative, um I think as a learning context, they're also taking away that background level of stress that you need to overcome the sensory difficulties before you can get stuck in and do some of that all-important um educate yourself and being creative and hands-on. So while it won't work for everybody, and we um in our other research, we've found some autistic people don't like that kind of sensory environment. I think it is worth thinking about um the things that are working for the ones that tell us it it's um a positive experience, and I think it is about that mixture of structure and lower sensory demands that makes it um really a lovely place to be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I I have um family over in Sweden and and some of the boys are in for our school. And as soon as I heard about it, I was like, oh, I want to do that. That sounds incredible. Like it sounds like an amazing way to to spend your time to be in nature and learn and have the freedom to explore. It's just gorgeous, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think it it's really great. And you know, if you can do it in Sweden, and I know um in in Scotland there's a a strong forest school movement there as well. So, you know, um I hope that the movement can spread.
SPEAKER_01Most definitely, absolutely.
What Educators Can Do Tomorrow
SPEAKER_01Um and then my very last question for you is if an educator is listening to this right now and they want to go, they're sort of thinking, like, I want to immediately make break times and play times more comfortable for my autistic students, is there something that they can immediately do?
SPEAKER_00I think the best thing you can do is talk to your autistic students about what's helpful for them. If your autistic students um, you know, can tell you what they enjoy or what they find difficult about play times, or if um you can use your observational skills to figure that out, perhaps if they're non-speaking, or it's more difficult to find a communication style that matches. Um you can talk, you can use your observation skills or you can talk to people who know the child well. Um, but I think observation is a really good place to start. And if you observe, oh you know what, I can see that child really enjoying something here, they're really deep in the moment. Um, see how you can provide more of that at the playtime. Equally, if you're seeing something that's a sign of distress, really try to see what you could do to make that change and be more flexible in your school's practices um to uh to help make an accommodation. And I think one of the things we talk about in the book is that careful observation because just go back to that example of sort of retreating to the library, you know, that's it's really great to retreat to the library if that's your thing. You want to be in the book corner and you need a bit of time out. But if you're retreating because you're experiencing bullying and exclusion, and actually you'd rather be outside playing skipping games and um chatting to other children, then the educator's role is quite different in those two scenarios. And I think we need to be curious about what's going on for our autistic students and not just make assumptions because we see someone doing um a particular activity that they necessarily are there because they want to, and that's an active choice. So, really interrogating what's going on when you do see it and why, and getting those different perspectives would be a real help, I think. Um, I also think there's a real role for school leadership in this area as well. So it's not just about individual practitioners making small changes, although that will help and it's always welcome, but having an ethos that having a high-quality play offer that's inclusive for all students is part of the responsibility of the adults in the school. I think starts with the leadership. So I um, you know, that bit of advice to a teacher, yes, work with your students to find out what's most comfortable, but also work with your senior leadership team to think about what is our overall strategy for playtime and how can we work together to make it more inclusive. Another change that I'd love to see um is more senior and experienced colleagues out on the playground alongside more junior and less experienced or qualified colleagues to signal that importance of play in the school day.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, brilliant. That's fantastic.
Blending Learning And Play For Autonomy
SPEAKER_01I know I said that was my last question, but I did think of one question. Um I just I would love to know where you would like things to go next in terms of research, in terms of support. Um is there is there something that you would love to see happen?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a good question because there's so much that I would love to see happen. I think I would like to see the boundaries between the classroom and the playtime breakdown. And I think um one of the things we've learned from our um some of our other studies of um autistic play is about this idea of um a kind of almost like a choreographed diving in and stepping back into different activities, different social scenarios, different play, um play states. And I think um a school setup that helps students to navigate that process of diving in and stepping back, taking time out when they need to, getting back into learning a particular thing, or um grouping with like-minded individuals who want to nerd out about a particular topic. I would love it if schools could be much more fluid to allow for that sort of transition in and out of what we traditionally consider learning, or what we traditionally consider play to have a more um integrated model. So, as for how we get there, I think um I'd like to see more research on the forest school context because I think that does um integrate these elements of learning and play and rest and recovery much more naturally. But I'd love to see can we learn from those principles and apply them in more traditional school contexts to support students to um have more autonomy and agency in both their learning and their play experiences.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that sounds gorgeous. Because yeah, even thinking back to my own school days, which obviously were a thousand years ago now, but it's I you just feel so restricted. That's it. And it's like from one restricted setting to another restricted setting, and and like sort of having to jump in. And that's you know, we know that transition is difficult at the best of times, but when you're feeling so hemmed in, um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, it's really interesting because in schools children don't tend to get a choice of their timetables and what happens when, and actually, in many professional roles in life, we do get those choices. Like we we do often schedule our own day, and while there are certain commitments that sadly we can't get out of all the time. Um, you know, I think in professional life there is quite a lot more autonomy than we tend to um give to school children. So it's quite interesting to think if there is a narrative around school being partly as a kind of like preparation for for work, whatever you think of that. I could probably talk at length and why I would think that's a bad idea, but I won't. But I think if you do accept that argument, the rigidity and constraints that we're putting on people in schools don't really match um much of what the workplace looks like. So I think there's some like really interesting contradictions in that. And one of the things I love about play is it is a little bit anorchic and it does help to challenge boundaries. So if we could get rid of um externally set timetables through play, that would be really fun.
Closing Notes And Where To Find Us
SPEAKER_01Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. Views expressed in these chats may not always be the view of Middletown Centre. If you'd like to know more about Middletown, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Middletown Centre for Autism. Go easy until next time.