The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
The Middletown Podcast features interviews with leading thinkers and practitioners across the autistic and autism community. Conversations are autism-affirming and neurodiversity-informed with a focus on the lived experience and knowledge of our community. Episodes highlight issues impacting autistic people and we share ideas for family members and school staff who are providing support.
The Middletown Centre for Autism Podcast
Inclusion and Belonging with Louise King
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode, we’re talking about belonging and inclusion. We chat to Louise King, Middletown staff member, who shares her experience supporting autistic children and young people in lots of different school settings. We talk about the importance of inclusion, where challenges might arise and how to address them. Louise shares really useful examples and practical ideas.
Welcome And Why Inclusion Matters
SPEAKER_01Welcome to the Middletown Podcast. I'm Kat Hughes, and I'm a researcher at Middletown, and I'm also autistic. In this episode, we're talking about belonging and inclusion. I chat to Louise King, a Middletown staff member who has so much experience supporting autistic children and young people in different school settings. We chat about the importance of inclusion and where challenges might arise and how to address them. Louise gives really useful examples and practical ideas. She has so much experience to share, and I loved our chat. I hope you enjoy it too.
Defining Inclusion As Belief
SPEAKER_01Louise, it's so lovely to chat to you for the podcast because I wanted to start with a very big question. So, how do you define inclusion?
SPEAKER_00Um, I think for me, inclusion is really a set of beliefs and values. It's something that you feel and it's something that comes really inherent about how you view in a school setting, I suppose, children and young people, but more extensively how we view other people and looking at a real strengths-based approach, um, obviously in schools to learning and a sense of belonging. Um, I worked with uh a head teacher who really instilled a belief in limitless beliefs in children and young people. It was in a primary school setting, and for me, that's what inclusion really means. It's about looking at children and young people in your in your school setting or in your wider setting, recognizing what they bring, making those accommodations and giving them those supports so they can feel really valued and actually be really successful in in the environments that you're in.
SPEAKER_01That's lovely. And limitless belief. That is such a gorgeous term of terms. I love that.
Why Secondary School Overwhelms
SPEAKER_01Um, and can you describe some challenges to inclusion that you've seen students experiencing?
SPEAKER_00I think some, you know, particularly um, I've been working in secondary schools quite recently, and I think one of the big challenges is that the children and young people are interacting with so many different adults throughout the day. Um, there's constant transitions, there's constant movement. Um, each of the environments that they're going into can be very different. Um, different teachers have different approaches, uh, there are different rules, uh, different expectations. Um, and when the children are not, and young people are not in the classrooms, they're moving around through canteens, through corridors, into social spaces that are often crowded and noisy. So I think that a lot of sort of the environmental factors and a lot of difference in secondary schools in particular can be really challenging. And I think because of that, children and young people often are not able to engage fully in learning because they're so can be so worried and so anxious and so overwhelmed by everything else that's happening in schools. So I think secondary schools in particular, um, that's a challenge. I think schools are a little bit limited by the resources that they have, and we don't need a big fancy all-singing, all dancing sensory space, but there are often a lot of children in very small environments. So trying to create um regulation spaces and trying to create um pockets of safety throughout schools, um, especially in very old buildings, can be very challenging, despite the best of intentions of teachers. Um, but certainly um I think in inconsistency can be very challenging for children and young people. And at times, uh, you know, a lack of flexibility. Uh schools are notorious for having uh timetables and bells and stops and starts and a lot of uh everyone moving at once. Um, and that does create a sort of an element of of inflexibility to the day, um, which also can then put put stress on our on our young people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that makes a huge amount of sense. And yeah, you you've kind of obviously it's a very long time since I was in school, but you've reminded me of that feeling of just being so hemmed in because from a sensory perspective it's so chaotic, and from a social perspective, it's challenging, and you have the timetable and the expectations, and you just like it, it's like there's so many weights on top of you. The idea of feeling part of a community within that was just beyond anything I could have imagined. So, yeah, that makes an awful lot of sense, definitely.
SPEAKER_00And I think we we then do expect the children to to ask for help and the young people, you know, we're saying, but we're here, we're available, but actually being able to in that moment articulate how you're feeling or what you need. Um, so again, a lot of teachers, a lot of educators um are very open to support, but it's that maybe disconnect between um what they expect from children, young people to be able to do in that moment and how they can articulate the their their feelings and and what they need, and and that that can be really, really challenging.
SPEAKER_01Definitely. And even knowing that what you feel is different to what the person next to you is feeling is really tricky as well. It's like knowing you're normal and then knowing everyone else's normal, for want of a better term, is is really hard to figure out, I think.
Building Ethos And Listening Deeply
SPEAKER_01And then I know you've collaborated wonderfully with with educators, and and how has that process worked for you in terms of sort of building an inclusive environment?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've been very fortunate in my career to work across many different school settings, both uh locally and internationally, um, and in a very variety of different roles, um, leading on inclusive practice and embedding inclusive practice, um, doing training with teams of educators, working with parents. Um, and more recently, I've been working with College of Firstja, which is an Irish medium in school in Belfast, which you know brought some of its own challenges because I'm actually not an Irish speaker. Um, but we've been able to get around that. Um, and really one of the things that we were able to do there was really just look at the the ethos of the school. And College of First have a fabulous um ethos, and they actually uh embody something called is fume, and it means I belong. And they use that as the central ethos for all of their thinking and their rationale around just children and students and their learning. And we wanted to kind of look beyond the work that was maybe happening within the special supervision classrooms and look more broader and more wider at the children's experiences throughout the day. Um, so obviously, there are lots of pockets of good practice happening in all schools around the country. So it's really thinking about um about that and looking at what what's going well, um, being able to get support and advice and uh recommendations um from other staff where things are going well and why they're going well. And I think really importantly, it's to listen to to the children and young people and what their lived experience is, what's happening in class A that's working really well, that's maybe missing in class B, or what's one educator able to do within the confines of their room that maybe another person um isn't yet aware of. So I think a lot about sort of being able to collaborate is about listening to multiple voices. Um, I think it has to be a real whole school initiative with everybody sort of committed and getting on board. I think at College of First Ja, the school leaders were very much um committed to doing that, and they were able to set aside the time, you know, for staff to engage in reflective practice. Um, and the day that we had in June was a whole day of uh whole staff, whole staff, um, all educators being able to have an evidence-informed session with middle time. And then there was an opportunity for the mainstream teachers to go into the specialist provision classrooms, to be able to talk to the staff, to be able to see the sensory room in action, to be able to connect with the therapy animals, to be able to see the resources, to see the strategies, and to have those really deep and meaningful conversations that are so often lost in schools. You know, you often have a quick chat at break time or a corridor conversation, um, but the school were able to really um highlight the importance of that professional collaboration and it gave a lens into the specialist provision classrooms that many teachers maybe wouldn't have had, and it created a sense of pride for the specialist provision educators to be able to share their experience. And I think that really because that happened after the evidence-informed, you know, in interactive session with with myself and with our middle-time work, I think it really encouraged educators to be reflective and to and to open their minds even further. And then at the end of the day, what we were able to do um, we had created, worked with um the head of teaching and learning and the Senko, and we'd created a sort of a bespoke environmental audit, uh, which they then went and were able to translate into Irish. And the educators had the opportunity then to go back into their own learning spaces and to really reflect on their days' learning. So looking at what we had done in the session in the morning, thinking about their interactions that they had and the observations that they made within the special supervision classrooms, and then to take that back into their own learning spaces and be really reflective was was really it was great. Um, and we really encouraged the educators to kind of think about, you know, what's one thing that you're gonna continue doing? What's one thing that's working really well in your room? And if it is, share it, share it within your department, share it within your teams. Um, what's one thing that you might start doing a little bit differently based on this new experience and new knowledge that you've had? And is there something maybe that you're gonna stop? Something that's maybe been embedded uh for a little while that's either not working um or could could be adapted or could be could be changed. So um it was sort of a whole a whole day um that the school had dedicated. Where it wasn't a tick box, it wasn't something that staff had to do in their own time. It was time was given and space was given for those really um deep reflections and the environmental audits were were collected, not to you know go back and sort of say to teachers, this is what you haven't done, but so school leaders could really see what some of the challenges were, um, what resources maybe needed, but also what was working well. And you know, I've seen the completed um environmental audits, and the amount of time and the depth of responses that educators put into that was phenomenal. And it's because the school afforded them the time to really do it and to do it properly. And there was a real commitment from the school to follow up in this term. So the session that we did was in June. We're now into the new academic year and the new academic term. So there was a real commitment from senior leaders that they would take on board what teachers were saying and they would listen and they would do their very best then to feedback and to be able to overcome some of the challenges that they were facing within their classrooms.
SPEAKER_01That's brilliant. That level of commitment is really important, isn't it? Um, and I love the idea that the part of your focus was on what is already working. Because I think that's so important. And I think it can feel like people are sort of at the bottom of a mountain sometimes, and they're like, oh, there's so much that we have to do, but it's there's also so much that's already happening that can be really positive.
Time Pressure And Low Cost Changes
SPEAKER_01And have you found that there are particular kind of fears or challenges that school staff have around the idea of building that inclusive environment?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I've worked, as I said, in many different schools for a long time, and the one thing that there's never enough of is time and money and being able to reflect on individual children and young people, um, you know, some secondary teachers are maybe teaching a hundred plus students a day. So I think sometimes teachers can get bogged down on the individual, and and you know, um, this student needs that and that student needs this. And how am I supposed to manage all of this? And it can feel really overwhelming, um, and especially whenever they are spinning so many other plates, you know, they're counsellors, they're doctors and nurses, and they're PAs, and they're sports coaches, and there's a lot going on in schools. And I do always say in Jess that it's very rarely you go to a staff meeting in school and someone tells you what you can stop doing. It's always what's what's what else and what's new and what's additional. Um, so I think you know, I I can see how how teachers may feel a little bit overwhelmed. Um, so many children, so many things to remember, not enough time and not enough resources. So we really focused in on sort of you know low-cost, no-cost initiatives, um, being able to for the school to be able to have give the educators that time to be in their spaces and just reflect, I think was was really, really important. Um, we really wanted to think about what we can do that's going to benefit everybody. So, really thinking about how do we create consistency, how do we create routines, how do we create predictability. It doesn't mean going and spending seven hours at the laminator every week and you know, with your velcro and things like that. So it was really that sort of um the message to teachers is that we know that there's a lot on. We know that you do fabulous work every day. These are some small steps that you can take that should not impact too much on your day-to-day experiences and the workload and the curriculum, but things that you can enhance and things that you can change that will have a massive impact positively on so many different learners. Um, so yeah, I think it's just being realistic as well that you know you can, it's very difficult to be all things to everybody all at once, but there are certain um, as I said, changes with your environment, changes with your thinking, just being able to stop in your approach before having a conversation um with children and young people that don't cost a thing. Um, and I think that message coming through was really important, and I think it was quite well received as well.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. And as you say, you've worked in lots of different education
Language That Shifts Practice
SPEAKER_01contexts. Are there sort of examples of inclusion really working well that have kind of stayed with you?
SPEAKER_00I think if I just come back to that sort of limitless beliefs in children and how that was just drip, drip, drip, drip, drip fed into um conversations and meetings and um interactions throughout the school, it became really embedded. So I really do believe in the importance of language, um, the importance of language when you are talking to children, but also talking about children and whether that's if they're in front of you or they're not in front of you. So conversations with other professionals, conversations with colleagues, conversations with parents. And I would extend that also to you know how we write about students, how we're writing um reports, if you know how we are presenting that, and and really thinking about how we can come from a strengths-based approach, how can we think about what that person, um, that child or that young person brings to the table. Um, and we in my previous school, we did a lot of work on just trying to introduce the term dysregulation. And there was no fanfare, there was no big presentation, this is what we're not going to do, this is what we are gonna do. Senior leaders and the learning support team just really began to start using the language differently. So if an educator was saying yes, you know, they were um aggressive or tantrum, we would respond then by saying, Oh, yeah, he that child was in distress or that child was dysregulated. And suddenly it just became part of what we did. Um, and that language became used throughout. It was language that we began using with each other, it's language that we began using with parents, and it's language that we began using with the children. So I I really do think that language is is really key. And if you're saying it, you start to believe it, you know, and when you believe it, then you you you stop and you think. And I think your actions and your responses as an educator really, really change. Um, so I think that and also just the consistency um, you know, around around school, looking at the small things of, you know, can I take my water bottle out in this lesson, but not in this lesson? You know, can I get up and fill my water bottle in the lesson? Am I allowed to use an eraser? Can I use TIPX? Some lessons, yes, some lessons no. Can I go to the toilet? Can I take my phone out? So it's really trying to look at sort of those sort of non-negotiables or those foundations within classrooms so that as the children move throughout the day, they're met with a really consistent approach from the adults. Um, and that when they go into classrooms, there's not a sense of like can I or can't I? Um for those really basic things. So I think that's you know, when you can introduce some really clear and consistent routines, and of course there's going to be flexibility within that, but it just decreases that anxiety, it increases predictability and safety. And from then, I think children can really focus on learning and and and be more successful in the school environment.
SPEAKER_01Lovely. And they're they're both very sort of gentle approaches, aren't they? Sort of not going, you know, you have to change this, you have to do the thing this way, you can't do that. It's about sort of modeling for people as much as anything, which is really lovely, I think.
SPEAKER_00I think that's where you get buy-in as well. You know, when you're able to model it, when you're able to gently um change the the language, um, you bring people along along the journey with you. It's not like I've been told to do this. Um, so really you are getting that buy-in, and and that's I think where inclusion is most powerful when true people and educators, when parents, when professionals truly believe that this is what we should be doing and this is how we should be doing it, not because they've been told or it's because it's expected by senior leaders. It comes from a real inherent set of beliefs and values.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that makes a lot
Advice For Leaders And Staff
SPEAKER_01of sense. And then my very last question for you is what advice would you give to school staff who are sort of keen to create that environment of inclusion?
SPEAKER_00I think firstly, just to echo like you know, there is lots of pockets of good practice going on. So, you know, get out and about, be visible. Um, if you're a senior leader, go in, get into classrooms, interact with children, young people, interact with your staff and find out what's working well and why. And is that something that you can find ways to promote within your school environment with other members of staff? You know, shine a light on those people that are doing it really well, uh, if they're comfortable with it. If not, you can do it anonymously. But it's it's finding out, it's it's signposting other educators again in a really sort of low-demand, positive way. Oh, um, I hear that you know, little Johnny's having a bit of trouble in science. Actually, English is working really well. Go and chat to Mrs. Bloggs and see. Um, so it's really trying to highlight pockets of good practice within schools and signposting other educators there. I think it's listening to students um is really, really, really important. And it's about being curious, being curious about what their day looks like. I was really privileged to be involved in a student shadowing day, and I would say I it's the best professional learning that I've ever had because I shadowed a student. The student didn't know, the teachers in the room didn't know who I was there to shadow. Um, and it was very non-judgmental. It was just to give, at the time I was an assistant principal, it was to give us an insight into what the children are experiencing from the minute they walk in through the doors until they they leave their extracurricular activity at the end of the day. And we devoted a whole day, no phones, no meetings, no emails, and we just embraced and engaged with that student's day. And it told us so much more than anything else. Um, and it really highlighted the number of transitions that the children were going through. It highlighted how divergent some of the practice might have been and how much they were sort of having to change themselves every time that there was a transition. Um, but I think you know, if school leaders and other school staff that are interested can be afforded opportunities, even a have to, uh, to be able to just go in and shadow students, they would they would get a real, a really different experience and a different lens on trying to make decisions that support learning and support students in school. Um, and I just feel that, you know, the environmental adaptations as well, you know, again, it's it's the environmental audit, and Liddletown have got an environmental audit that we have on our um or our website, um, even just to look at that and to have a document that that just makes you think in a different way. You know, is the light in this room working best? Are there noises that are going on in the background that may not be, you know, uncomfortable for me, but maybe uncomfortable for somebody else when I'm thinking about my seating plan? Is there someone who I know needs to move a bit and will be better positioned at the back of the room where there might be a little bit more space or closer to the door where they can go out into the corridor, take a minute and come back in again? Often I think seating plans are designed around best learning and learning partners, and the the chatty ones aren't together. Um, but there's also other ways to think about seating plans that come from um a sensory um perspective and think about you know creating that sort of safe sensory space as well, because that will also contribute hugely to learning and to success in the classroom. Um, and yeah, I just think that um the consistency and predictability is key. Um and it's not about you know everyone, everyone doing the same thing in in every room. Teachers will have some autonomy and they will have different personalities, but if we can kind of get the basics, the basic structure, the basic movement around the school, those rules around the water bottles, the phones, the stationery embedded, I think that will reduce a lot of a lot of stress um for for children. Um and when I think about educators and I think about my own experiences and I think about my own journey and I think about what you know what advice I would give to myself is it's that sort of quote about when you do the best that you can until you know better. And then when you know better, you can do better, and you know, be gracious and and recognize that none of us have got all the answers. You know, we're constantly evolving, we're constantly learning, we're constantly trying new things, we're meeting new children all of the time, and we're adapting to how they present and what they need from us. Um, and as an educator, you're you're always learning, always learning. Um, and I think it's just recognizing that, like, yeah, do what you do, do it as best you can. And then when you get a little bit more information and you're able to be a bit more curious, that's when you can really improve, and that's when um outcomes for children, I think, will really improve as well.
Closing Thoughts And Where To Find Us
SPEAKER_01Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. This is a conversation-based interview designed to stimulate thinking and hopefully support the development of practice. It's not intended to be medical or psychological advice. Views expressed in these chats may not always be the view of Middletown Center. If you'd like to know more about Middletown, you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at Middletown Center for Autism. Go easy until next time.