Trish King CPDT-KA, CDBC

You guys have heard me say it before, but so much of what I have learned to help dogs with aggression issues has come from amazing icons in our community who have been so generous to share their knowledge and insight with the world. One such amazing trainer is none other than Trish King. Have you heard of the umbrella method to deal with off-leash dogs trying to harass or attack your on-leash dog? Yup, that credit goes to Trish. 

In this fantastic conversation, Trish and I chat about a variety of topics around helping dogs with aggression, as well as avoiding it in the first place through things like socialization...and when I say socialization, it may not be quite what you are thinking.

For additional resources on helping dogs with aggression, visit:
https://aggressivedog.com

If you want to take your knowledge and skills for helping dogs with aggression to the next level, check out the Aggression in Dogs Master Course and get a FREE preview here:
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/courses/aggression-in-dogs

Don't miss out on the third annual Aggression in Dogs Conference  9/30-10/2/22:
https://aggressivedog.com/conference/

Woof Cultr swag!
https://woofcultr.com/collections/the-aggression-in-dogs-conference

About Trish:

Trish has been a professional in the animal world for over 30 years.   As Director of the Behavior & Training Department at the Marin Humane Society, she built a department known throughout the United States for its quality.  Trish established the Canine Behavior Academy at MHS for new or interested trainers.   She currently teaches the Academy of Dog Behavior, and teaches workshops and seminars on behavior, canine management, temperament assessment, and handling difficult dogs, among other topics. In addition, she and her partner own Canine Behavior Associates, consulting with and helping dogs and their owners.

Her extensive knowledge of animal behavior, as well as her sense of humor, have made her a popular speaker at such venues as the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT), The Humane Society of the US (HSUS), American Humane Association AHA), and California Animal Care Conferences.  

Trish authored a critically acclaimed book for dog owners, Parenting Your Dog (TFH Publications).   She has written numerous articles about dog and cat behavior for local and national newspapers and magazines.  She also developed the “Canine Calming Cap, “marketed by the Thundershirt Company, to help dogs that are overly anxious or excitable.  

 https://www.canine-behavior-associates.com/about-1/about-trish/

Transcript

Michael Shikashio: 0:02

You guys have heard me say it before. But so much of what I've learned to help dogs with aggression issues has come from amazing icons in our community, who have been so generous to share their knowledge and insight with the world. One such amazing trainer is none other than Trish King. Have you heard of the umbrella method to deal with off leash dogs trying to harass or attack your on leash dog? Yep, that credit goes to Trish. In this fantastic conversation Trisha and I chat about a variety of topics around helping dogs with aggression, as well as avoiding it in the first place through things like socialization. And when I say socialization, it may not be quite what you're thinking. And if you are working with aggression cases, or plan on taking aggression cases as a trainer, or maybe you're even just struggling with your own dog. We have a variety of educational opportunities for you, including the upcoming aggression in dogs conference happening from September 30 Through October 2 2022. in Providence, Rhode Island with both in person and online options, you can learn more about the aggression in dogs master course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues by going to aggressive dog.com. And special thanks to John masala for editing the podcast this season, and bringing the production to the next level. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the by the end of the dog. I'm super excited for this week's conversation because I have a legend here Trish King, who has been a professional in the animal world for over 25 years. She currently teaches the Academy of dog behavior in the San Francisco Bay Area and teaches workshops and seminars on numerous canine problems. In addition, she and her partner own canine behavior associates consulting with and helping dogs and their owners. Over the years Trisha has been a popular speaker at dog behavior and shelter venues she's written the book parenting your dog, and someone I've definitely learned so much from over the years. So I'm super excited to have you here. Trish, welcome. Thank you. So let's jump into you know, anytime I have somebody with as much experience as you, I do like to pick your brain about things that you've seen evolve and change and develop over the years in the dog training industry in the dog training community. Right? I see a lot of younger trainers coming up. And sometimes I wish they could be at the bar at APDT conference 20 years ago, right? And see what that's like an experience that culture. And so there's a number of techniques, you've also developed over the air, we'll jump into those as well. But who are some of your biggest influences in the last 25 years of your training career?

Unknown: 2:38

Actually, it's more like 30 Now, I guess, but I was a charter member of the APDT. I was number 46. So you know, I was in on the beginning of it. And at the time that I started, compulsive training was the norm. And I've often said, and I still believe it that if I had to keep on training, the way I learned how to train, I wouldn't be training anymore, I wouldn't do it. Because it tends to be cruel, it tends to, you know, try to fix the mistake before they've learned to do the right thing. And that that, to me is just, it's silly. And it's not how I would raise a child, it's not how I would raise a dog. So I suppose that when you look back on it, one of the most influential people would be Ian Dunbar who actually put the APDT together. And then all the people who surrounded him at that time, I understand that you've got Jean Donaldson, as a guest. I found her to be an extremely influential person, and of course to Sternberg, for sure. Particularly because I was in the shelter business. And she was the shelter person. And so I learned a heck of a lot from her. It was it was wonderful. So other than that, you know, there's just a whole bunch of people who over the years, you know, I always say to my students, you pick and choose from the people that you learn from, you don't necessarily you don't want to be a clone of any of the trainers, but you pick each thing that you think will fit in with your personality and your methodology and you use that. So that's exactly what I did in the beginning. And oh, we really learned from the wild animal trainers and the you know, though we've really, really learned from them because sometimes there was some miscommunication, because they didn't quite understand that we took our animals home. So there was that that was a kind of an issue for us that more than it was for them. For instance with dolphins, you know, you just pick up your fish and leave if the dolphin isn't cooperating. But you can't quite do that with a dog. So but it was it was it was wonderful. It was hugely steep learning curves. I mean, so much though, that it, you just felt like your brain was exploding in the beginning there.

Michael Shikashio: 5:09

Yeah. So you know, what's interesting to me is just how influential one person or even one group or one aspect of the industry can be sometimes. So when you're talking about just how much influence, you know, II and or gene have had on our industry quite a bit when you think about it, and the same thing with, you know, marine mammal training, and how that's taking quite a hold and influence much of how our training techniques and that we pass on to other generations of trainers, you know, when you think about clicker training, for instance, if you know, Karen Pryor, and that whole movement of working with other species hadn't come into dog training, imagine kind of where we'd be at now. So those are the things you think about, you know, and you just imagine in your brain, where would the dog training community be without some of these other influences are certainly some of the positive influences, right?

Unknown: 5:58

I don't know where we'd be, you know, each type of training has its limitations, but each of them also has, they're really important. Just just what you can do with them. I remember when I first heard about clicker training, I'm like, Oh, my God, this is training. And although I don't use it very much now, except for to train tricks. It still was a wonderful concept, and was highly useful in our field.

Michael Shikashio: 6:26

Yeah, also think about the additional sciences, right? So we had quite a bit of interest in applied behavior analysis and operant conditioning and Pavlovian conditioning, that that's been around for, obviously, for a long time in other arenas, but in the dog training community kind of started to seep in maybe 20 years ago, 10 years ago, more strongly. But some of the other sciences got forgotten about. So I think when those started to seep into the fold, would you say the same thing, so maybe things like a theology, or biology were not as heavily focused on?

Unknown: 6:59

Oh, I think in the very beginning, we were all about operant conditioning and classical conditioning. And then ethology. And that suddenly became very important. And, you know, before then, before, 2530 years ago, no one studied dogs. Biologists never studied dogs ecologist didn't study dogs, they were considered a domesticated species, and therefore not very interesting. And turns out there are domesticated species, and very interesting. And so it was, it was wonderful learning about ecology. And I think probably, if I think about what I do, I use the ethology almost more than almost anything else now, who is this dog? What does this dog need to be able to succeed? And how can I help him get to that point, I might use the tools that come with classical conditioning or operant conditioning, but I I want to actually discuss with the dog what they need. And that's more ethology based. There's just so much stuff that trainers have nowadays that they can use, that we didn't have, in the very beginning, it was all kind of just little bits and pieces, and then all of a sudden, oh my god, it came together. And it was wonderful. And I can't believe that this is fantastic. This is learning about body language. If you're not telling the dog what to do, and making them do it, learning, you know, what they are actually saying to you learning what they're talking about. That's to me, that's really, really, really fascinating.

Michael Shikashio: 8:38

What are your thoughts on how fast some of this influence can happen now with the with social media being around were, as, again, 20 years ago? Again, when you think about 25 years ago, you're saying, you know, we're just getting into learning about and really dogs in the way we are now? Sure, they've been studied for a long time, but not in the way in the last, you know, quarter of a century. So we're still kind of a baby industry compared to other you know, professions and things that have been around for hundreds of years or over 100 years. But now with social media, you see things enter the community ideas or concepts, and they sometimes spread like wildfire, because it's kind of the new shiny thing. What are your thoughts on that? Or do you see that being a problem with some of the younger trainers?

Unknown: 9:22

I do? I actually do. Because I think that it's very easy to get up on a bandwagon, about a certain technique or a certain kind of principle, and then forgetting everything else that you ever learned. I think that things become fashionable. And I think just in the day and age of social media, there is so much judgment that I hate to condemn someone for using a tool for instance, that perhaps might be the best tool under the circumstances. And the tool is not the person send the person and the techniques into who they are. That's more important. So I do think that we have a tendency to rush to judgment. And also we don't understand our clients, as well as we think we understand our clients. I remember back a long time ago, I was participating in a seminar. And one of the participants was very upset about a study that had just been done that showed that people chose their dog training schools based on proximity, not on philosophy. And she was livid. She didn't believe the study, because she said, How could this be? Well, these are our customers, and they're doing what they think is most effective, and they don't want to travel too far. And that's what happens. But it was very hard for her to accept. But I think it's really easy to just rush to judgment. And I think that that's not necessarily the best idea. It behooves us, shall we say, to actually be thoughtful about our response to other people's techniques, or their philosophies or anything?

Michael Shikashio: 11:11

True words of wisdom there, because I think a lot of what's missing is critical thought, right? Thinking about thinking these things through instead of just visceral kind of knee jerk responses to seeing a certain tool mentioned, or a picture of a dog with a certain tool on or somebody talking about a certain technique, it's often people are very quick to jump on criticizing it without asking further questions or engaging in a dialogue or conversation. Right.

Unknown: 11:38

Yeah, it I mean, it goes throughout social media on absolutely everything. So we shouldn't be surprised that it's in our world as well.

Michael Shikashio: 11:45

Yes, yes. And along those lines, you know, you certainly have developed a number of techniques. And many of I've learned from over the years watching your webinars and your material. One of them is the abandonment training technique. Some trainers use it, some strangers know about it, and some challenges have never heard of it. So especially some of the newer trainers. And so there's a lot of misconceptions, or sometimes people just take it as our abandonment, they just take the one word and decide what it is without even asking you what it is, or learning more about it. So why don't you give us sort of the Reader's Digest version of what it is. And then we can talk more about some of the techniques and the aspects of it.

Unknown: 12:22

Well, actually, it is a technique that uses the dog's desire to be part of a social group, which is you, hopefully, it as the owner. So if we talk about reactive dogs, my preference is always to work with the dog before they go into arousal, because that is the time when they're still thinking, if they're in full arousal, they're not thinking, and so you've just lost a huge opportunity. But say you've missed it. And the dog is now just heading into that space. If at that point, you actually withdraw your presence. And the dog is aware of your presence, and they suddenly realize that they don't have the support that they need, they'll turn around and come to you. That's all it is. So it doesn't work for really independent dogs, because they don't care if you're there, but it works very well for dogs that do care. And, you know, the technique as I kept on working with it usually requires pretty much two trainers. So you have to have a staff and it requires some really good dogs like baton cat, you need to have some dogs that are pretty bomb proof. And that prevents us use a lot of times because you don't always have another trainer and another dog that can be helpful for you. But the the minor version of it I use all the time. And what that is, is when you're you know when you're teaching polite walking, and you start to walk and the dog is pulled ahead of you and you essentially pretend to drop the leash. I mean, in this case, you'd be using a long line. So you pretend to drop the leash, and then you call the dog back. And so they start to realize that their job is to watch you. And if they know that that's what they need to do that the you are the leader and they are the follower, then you're in a position now where you actually can make a decision about whether or not to avoid another dog, or whatever, and the dog will look to you for that leadership. So I don't really use the full blown abandonment anymore. I don't have the opportunity to most of the time I'm going to people's houses. I don't have another person with me. But I often use the form of the leash method because in fact I did yesterday. So where the dog suddenly goes, Oh, okay, I'm supposed to be here and I guess that that other dog down there It's not as big of a deal as I thought it was. And then they come back to you, and you reward them for coming back to you. So if you think of it in those terms, it starts to make a little bit more sense. And it doesn't feel like you're leaving the dog and, you know, abandoning him to meet or whatever he, I don't know. But so that's really what it is, it's just utilizing that wonderful bond that we have between dog and human. And going, okay, so you need to follow me you need to I'm, I've gotten more of a sense of judgment here than you do. And you need to do what I want. And, you know, we were talking before the session about Marion County, where there are tons of off leash dogs. And there are, there are lots and lots and lots of off leash dogs, it's a culture where that happens. And so something like this is very useful, perhaps more useful than it is in a place where there are dogs that are more on leash.

Michael Shikashio: 15:57

And so can it also work for humans, so dogs that have issues with humans, where

Unknown: 16:02

it can, I wouldn't say you would use it that much more, I would be more likely to really create a sense of there as a human being, that's a good thing, you know, because we can control people way better than we can control another dog, we can, they're not going to come directly at us and jump on our dog, right. So because of that, it's more likely that I'm going to use the Lesley MC debit kind of thing where Look at that. And just kind of say, people are good, people are cool, and you can get a treat for me, because it person is walking by Oh, and this might be an opportunity to talk about one of the things I really don't like, I really don't like having a stranger give your dog a treat. I think that it can work. But I think that it's setting your dog up for failure. And the reason I think that is because if you have a fearful dog, and so you're trying to make your dog less fearful by having people give your dog a treat, if the dog is still fearful when they take the treat, if they take it first of all, they're gonna reach to take it and you're gonna leave their back legs as far behind as they can. And if then the person is a normal person and they try to pet the dog, then you might actually incur a snap, which you don't want. The other thing that can happen is that dog started approaching every human being thinking they're going to give him a treat. So that's not a good idea.

Michael Shikashio: 17:38

Yeah. And I want to actually give you credit for teaching me that probably 15 years ago or so somewhere, I heard you say it. And I remember that to this day, it's like you have a treat is like a magnet that kind of draws them past that critical distance. And I remember you talking about critical distance as well. And where it's a problem because they see the treat that draws them in like a magnet because they want that little bit of hot dog and then they eat the hot dog. And then they look up and they're now they're passing a critical distance. And oh boy, what do I do now? The only way for me to get out of here is to bite you. Usually works, right? And analogy actually developed over the years from that is like, okay, it's just like, if you want to use a human analogy, little anthropomorphizing here, but I've got a bundle of $100 bills in one hand. So you know, Trish come get the hundreds for me, do you think you're gonna be like, Okay, sure. But then I've got a gun in my other hand, got you. So it's putting you in a tremendous state of conflict. And that's what we can do with dogs if we're hand feeding them. And that's an important distinction. I think we're talking about hand feeding versus tossing at a distance or a tree in retreat, cut.

Unknown: 18:42

Tossing is complete is completely different in one of my very favorite exercises right now. I kind of go through these things like I suppose other people do, where they go, I like this one right now. Is catch, teaching a dog to catch a treat. And definitely I will use other people for that. But first of all, you have to teach the dog that you know, I mouth coordination. And a lot of times people go oh, my dog can't do that. And I go yes, they can. They just haven't learned it yet. But it's it's a lovely exercise because it it promotes eye contact. Because when you say catch the dog looks up at your face. It promotes full focus, which is just fantastic. If you say watch the dog is like why would I watch you? You're not very interesting. But if you say catch, then all of a sudden you get this dog going, Oh, okay. There's something in it for me to watch you. And so I use that a lot.

Michael Shikashio: 19:39

Well, that's interesting. It's almost like building engagement, but also adding something that could be construed as a game to the dog. So it's like, oh, play element there. Interesting. Interesting. So just jumping back to the abandonment technique. There was one other clarification that a question I get a lot even from my students is what's happening from a contingency standpoint. So One of the the techniques or the setups that I remember is, for instance, you have another dog approaching with this, you know, skilled handler that knows what they're doing. And you've got that student dog, maybe with a handler, the owner that they do have a relationship and a bond with, they're holding one leash, but the dog is also safely tethered or attached to something else. So when the owner drops the leash, they can walk away and the dog is now left alone, but they physically can't get over to the other dog to attack the other dog or do anything wrong. And so the other dog poachers, the student dog you're working with may start to bark or display some undesirable behavior. And the student handler will say, oops, or, say, give some sort of cue, toss the leash on the dog's back and walk away. So the consequence, so to speak, is the dog loses access to the owner or contingent upon that behavior. So is that sound accurate to

Unknown: 20:53

Yeah, it is the only the only not accurate thing about it is that the reason I like the other trainer is because that trainer is holding a long line, which is dragging on the ground. And if the dog makes the decision to go back to the owner, he can. He's never left. There is a never you're never truly abandoning the dog is never left on his own. There was a trainer that I knew that did use something like this only they actually really truly abandoned the dog. And I don't ever do that. It this is always you can come to me, you I'm here. Yeah, you just have to make that choice. Very important

Michael Shikashio: 21:36

distinction. Yeah, yeah. When you if you start to see the behavior change, what operant contingency is in play, would you say it's negative punishment, because well,

Unknown: 21:47

this is the thing, people used to ask it all the time, there's some there's some positive punishment, because you're telling them that you don't like what they're doing, you actually do toss the leash, so it hits their back, if you're doing this at the highest level, as I said, I don't usually do that anymore. But if you were, then that would be the positive punishment. And then the negative punishment is you going away, and then the positive reinforcement is them coming to you. And you calling them and going Hug, hug, kiss kiss, I love you, and I missed you a whole bunch, right? So it does encompass a lot, if you're talking about operant conditioning, and one of the things that I see quite a bit is that people only really want to use one part of the quadrant, they would like to use positive reinforcement only, or maybe some negative reinforcement would timeout. So I suppose what you could do with an abandonment training theory is you could say that's a really quick timeout. So that's what it is. But it's it's it's dramatic. So that was one of the other things when I was using it more is if it didn't work, you dropped it. If it didn't work, after two tries, you dropped it completely, because there is no point in, in trying to work something that doesn't have the capacity to make a change very quickly. And something that is that dramatic, I think is it would be cruel and unusual to do that kind of thing. So yeah, again, I don't really use this anymore. This was something that I used a lot more when I was at the Marine Humane Society, because we had a lot of trainers there. And I had a lot of dogs there that I could work with it jump started the dogs on you know, you'd use it maybe two times and they'd go, oh, I guess I gotta change my, my thought processes here. And then you go to other things. It was never something that you used over and over and over again. And it's possible that when I did that presentation years ago, I didn't mention that, or I didn't. I didn't make as big a point of that, as I should have that that. You know, this is not something that you continue to do. It's something that you do a few times, and then you stop. And I do remember one guy wanting me to do it. He had a dachshund. And the Doxon Barton lunged at everybody. So retry said, I don't think this is going to work. You know, I think that we need to, we need to really start working on obedience, we really need to start working on your relationship, because your relationship is not what it should be. And toxins can be difficult because they are terriers. And he said, Oh, please, please, please, please, please do it. So we did it. And I had tried it once and meditated again. They said it's not gonna work. And he said, Please, I need to to. So what did it mean and he wanted to do is he wanted to abandon his dog. It did not work. It did not work.

Michael Shikashio: 24:48

Yeah, we could we could safely say the relationship probably wasn't there. So we need it to be for that to work. No, no. Well, I appreciate all the clarifications because I think it's like many other techniques. Secondary disgust out there. There's a lot of you know, misunderstanding unless it's explained by somebody the originator. Thankfully, I have you here to do that. And you know, and I think it's also an important distinction to say that it's not something we're going to start with or use all the time, as you mentioned, it's part of forming a robust toolbox for understanding additional techniques when some of our other strategies may not be working, because we need to be able to shift gears. And so I can see how it's a very specific scenario with specific handlers that you would need

Unknown: 25:29

to try to work well, yeah, I mean, yeah, when I'm working with a reactive dog, like the dog that I was working with yesterday, for instance, I think we started off with one technique went to another technique, and finally ended up with a third technique that is going to be more successful. So you know, you do have to have a toolbox, you can't just say, Well, I'm going to use bat or whatever, you can't do that. Because there are times when it's not going to work. And you have to be able to say, well, given this dog, this dog was a terrier, a Jack Russell, given this dog and this dog's predilections, and this dog's response to the environment, and this dogs response to its owner, and you know, all those things. Let's see if we can reach into the toolbox and come up with the thing that would be the most successful to use. I've been using the canine lifeline for the last year or so. And it is really nice for big dogs, we did try it on this little guy. I mean, he's, he's called a Decker, Jack Russell, or no Decker rat terrier, which I had never seen before. They're bigger rat terriers. And we tried it and it didn't work, there was just no way that it was going to work. So we had to come up with different things and different tools and all those things. So

Michael Shikashio: 26:51

absolutely. And I again, I always, for my students, or anybody that's learning about training is to recommend learning, even if you're not going to use a technique is to learn about the nuances, the ins and outs and the proper way that it's used. Because you can apply many of the concepts from that particular technique to other applications. And something a big takeaway, just in the abandonment technique is recognizing when there is a relationship or not between the owner and the dog, of course, is going to be useful in many of the other aspects were working. I mean,

Unknown: 27:21

I just can't see you using it on a flock guard. There, you know, they're just gonna go, excuse me. Okay, I guess I'm on my own here. You know? Yeah. Are you so you have to be, I think, I think one of the really, I loved Kimbro for his interview, I could probably listen to her all day and all night. And when she was talking about greed, differences and differences, and what we've done over the years, that is so important for every trainer to know, and actually, for every owner to know, you need to know, not just what your dog is called, what kind of doodle is it? And you know, but what kind of instincts are deeply embedded in the dog because their instincts are, what they come loaded with. And everything else is patina is is stuff on the top. So I think that this is something that if you think that one technique is going to work for you, then you probably are not thinking much about what kind of dog this is. And you know, what was it that wonderful saying about first of the dog as an individual, then they're a dog, then they're the breed. But the breed is still pretty important, you know?

Michael Shikashio: 28:35

Absolutely, absolutely. I'm having a wonderful conversation with you. Trish, we're going to take a quick break from a here from a word from our sponsors, and we'll be right back. Hey, friends, it's me again. And I hope you are enjoying this episode, you may have figured out that something I deeply care about is helping dogs with aggression issues live less stressful, less confined, more enriched, and overall happy lives with their guardians. Aggression is so often misunderstood. And we can change that through continued education, like we received from so many of the wonderful guests on this podcast. In addition to the podcast, I have two other opportunities for anyone looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, which include the aggression in dogs master course, and the aggression in dogs conference. If you want to learn more about the most comprehensive course on aggression taught anywhere in the world, head on over to aggressive dog.com and click on the dog pros tab, and then the master course. The course gives you access to 23 modules on everything from assessment, to safety, to medical issues to the behavior change plans we often use in a number of different cases, including lessons taught by Dr. Chris pockle. Kim Brophy and Jessica Dolce. You also receive access to a private Facebook group with over 1000 of your fellow colleagues and dog pros all working with aggression cases. After you finish the course. You also gain access to private live group mentor sessions with me, where we practice working through a variety of cases together. And if you need to use we've got you covered. We are approved for just about every major training and behavior credential out there. This is truly the flagship course offered on aggression in dogs, and is perfect for pet pros that want to set themselves apart and take their knowledge and expertise to the next level, or even for pet owners who are seeking information to help their own dog. And don't forget to join me for the third annual aggression in dogs conference, either in person or online from Providence, Rhode Island on September 30 Through October 2 2022. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you might have heard on the podcast, including Suzanne Cole the air, Jen Shryock, Simone Mueller, Dr. Amber Batson Kim Brophy, Karissa miroir, Laura monocle. tirelli, Dr. Simone Gadbois, and many more, head on over to aggressive dog.com and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and leash reactivity to using positive reinforcement to work with predatory behavior. And if you like to show up your support of the podcast this year, we teamed up again with the folks over at Wolf culture for some catchy limited run conference merchandise. Wolf culture is known for their witty, nerdy and no nonsense apparel that was created in 2019. To spread more awareness towards the use of humane training methods, their apparel is here to help you start conversations, advocate for your animals and rep force retraining in a different way. So don't forget to get your conference gear, it leaves the site after 1231 2022. If you want 10% off your order, use the code bitey 10. At checkout, that's bi t y one zero. All right, I'm back with the legend Trish king. And we are talking about a lot of different things. Because when I have somebody with this much experience, I do like to pick their brain about a lot of different topics. So we were talking before the break about Marin County and the number of off leash dogs there. And I was just there presenting a couple months before this recording. And they were telling me about just how much of a problem it is where there's so many off leash dogs that, in fact, there's some of the pet owners that were there that they get blamed. And they get criticized for having an arm reach dog with problems, right? So they suck. How Why is your dog so bad? Why is your dog doing this? And they're following the rules, their dog is on leash, and they're just trying to deal with the environment, you should train your dogs. Yeah. Right, while they're off leash, dogs are not coming to them, when they're calling them. And so, you know, one of the techniques that I think you've also become known for is the scary eyes on their umbrella. And so that, you know, some one of the actual defensive handling techniques, again, I learned from you is you carry a purple and an umbrella with you. And this can be a very good tool to actually just ward off an off leash dog that will high level attack, but you certainly can work for many dogs to say, hey, you know, back off, get away from my dog and I think you get credit for painting scary eyes.

Unknown: 33:12

My daughter did that.

Michael Shikashio: 33:15

See how things follow you around?

Unknown: 33:18

Yeah, I think she did that when she was 12 I had an umbrella. Big scary eyes on it and and a bloody mouth. But it it is when you learn that large objects coming at something at at you at a human being or at a dog are always intimidating. So if you've got a dog running at you, and this works mostly for small dogs, okay, because with big dogs, it's very difficult to just imagination, just how to coordinate it. But with small dogs, you need to protect them. And if you've got a small dog that's got some leash reactivity or is very, very frightened of large dogs or whatever, you need to have a tool that is not going to hurt another dog, because you don't want them to want that to happen. But at the same time, we'll protect your dog. So with a small dog, what I teach, first of all, let's pick up which is just pick the dog, you know, you teach the dog to jump into your arms and then you kind of cover them with a big jacket. So that's one of the things that we use. Another thing is and this would be definitely something that I would do and I have you seen this, I grab a water treats because of course I always take treats when I go for walks with my dogs and they are all small at the moment. We are between big dogs. And I will take a lot of treats and throw it at the dog. And depending on the type of dog and their their level of commitment. They'll go oh wow. Oh, treats great, great, and that gives you time to do stuff. But I've had some elderly clients who have small dogs. And in our culture here where there is people with big dogs who do not train the dogs, but think that all dogs are friendly, I always tell them, you know, it takes two dogs to make friends, it takes one dog to make an enemy. So if you use an umbrella, and you usually get to kind of have a little fold up umbrellas, and you open it in the dog's face, as they're coming at you, they stop, because to them, it's a large object coming closer, they don't know it's an umbrella opening up. Now you do have to acclimate your own dogs to the umbrella. Because umbrellas can be pretty intimidating to dogs. But I've had some clients who used it and who found it to be very useful. Again, just one of those things in your toolbox.

Michael Shikashio: 35:49

And I give full credit to you for teaching me that I think it's important to give credit to people where you learned from so I've taught that to now 1000s of people all over the world so credit to you for helping you. I definitely definitely I have actually had a number of not only clients, but trainers tell me they have taught their clients that technique use that. They've also incorporated other objects, if they don't have an umbrella, I had one student or trainer reach out to me just thinking in the moment of something similar to that, what can I do and she was actually attacked by a pack of coyotes. And her dog, her small dog they were trying to get at her. So they were circling around her she remembered from the seminar, situational awareness think in the moment and she grabbed a huge stick with like branches on it. So it's sort of this big, scary object, same concept, something big and scary. Shoving towards anybody or any dog or coyote for that matter, is going to find that intimidating. And it often can work to just keep them at bay so you can make your escape. And so yeah, it's a definitely has been used. And thanks to you again, know, these ripples happen, right? And it's a wonderful,

Unknown: 37:00

you never know that that's what's going to happen. And then it does. Yeah, I mean, when you use the treats, it's really good to just throw the treats at the same time you say stop, and you put your hand out like a stop, like there being a stop sign or whatever. And that actually worked for me, when I had three dogs all coming towards my dogs, the dogs all stopped. And then they looked down and went, oh god, there's cheese here. And they started to eat the cheese, which was really good. And then the owner had time to catch up. It is really difficult. If you have a reactive dog. Most dogs aren't aggressive as we know. But if you have a reactive dog, and you have off leash dogs coming at you, it's very, very difficult. So we had one who was kind of genetically skewed, is probably the only way I can put it. We, you know, he was he loved our dogs, but he was not good with other dogs. And he, he really had trouble with impulse control. Anyway, what I would do, he was became very well trained, but you didn't like dogs in his face. And so what I would do is I'd actually hold up my leash and point to the leash and say My dog is a jerk. And that would stop people really fast. Because I was blaming my own dog, I was giving them a chance to control their dog without telling them what to do. Because you can't tell other people what to do. It doesn't work, they get mad at you. And it always gave us time, which is exactly what we needed. And then the other technique and case you're interested in my other technique is when dogs are coming towards you, and they're looking interested, they're not charging, you know, to they're just looking interested is to turn around and walk fairly rapidly in the other direction and the dogs will catch up with you. And that's fine because they're no longer doing either I now they're actually doing parallel walking. I've had several dogs that did that. I remember one in particular was a little Corgi who's like, Oh, are we all going for a walk? And there was Luke our troublesome dog going Yeah, I guess that's what we're doing. And there was no issue at all. Eventually the little Corgi dropped off went back to its owner, everything was fine.

Michael Shikashio: 39:31

You know, going back to the initial treat throwing strategy, that's something I also do and teach as well. I also same as you kind of tell the dogs you know, you can say in a loud voice or firm voice, you know, go home or stop or you know, go away. And that can work in itself sometimes. And so, I tend to also do the friendliest approaches first, like you just try the treats first. If you can see the doctor, you know, charging at you and you know a very aggressive way and then if they doesn't work and move on up the line to the umbrella. And I actually also have clients carry spray shield or if they if it's legal in their area, sometimes they can't get it in a certain countries, which is Citroen knows that right? I didn't Yeah, some countries, they don't even sell it. And so but I can get it through TSA most of the time, interestingly enough, so I have brought it to other countries and nobody's ever stopped me knocking on wood here, or even some countries or some locations, they use pepper spray, which can be a very effective deterrent. But obviously, it comes with the drawbacks of you could spray yourself your own dog, and it can be illegal to do that. And you might escalate the situation more. So it's a use at your own risk. But there are clients of mine that live in certain areas of the world where it's very dangerous for them to be walking around because of the number of dog attacks that happen to their dogs or other people in general. And in some places like Canada or bear spray is fine to be come into the picture because it gets not just other dogs, but other critters that so but of course, all those things. You know, that's my disclaimer for the show. Use at your own risk. Be careful, make sure

Unknown: 41:02

they are legal. And yeah, well. And the other thing is like with small dog, we have a lot of coyotes where we are. And there's something called coyote collars. I don't know if you're familiar with Yes, sir. Yes, they're, they're really good for small dogs. So yeah, I mean, sometimes you have to do that.

Michael Shikashio: 41:20

Yeah, they have. I think it's coyote vests, right? They have it looks like makes the dog look like a small porcupine. And

Unknown: 41:26

there's those and then there's also the coyote collar, which is just a spike colored where the spikes go out about six inches. Oh, wow, that prevents the coyote, or big dog for that matter, from grabbing hold on the neck or head. It doesn't prevent the dog being grabbed by its back legs. But you know, it's, it can be dangerous for people to walk their own dogs. And I've had clients who have been traumatized themselves when their dogs were attacked, and now won't walk their dogs at all. We have something in our area where there's a service where people rent out backyards. Yes,

Michael Shikashio: 42:10

that's which is actually called sniffs spots they find in there. Yeah, they have locations all over the country. I don't know if it's in other countries yet. But what a brilliant idea for people that need spaces to go for enrichment for their dogs without necessarily having to always worry about other dogs. Run it up. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So let's shift gears a little bit. Another pervasive topic that we were talking about before the show is socialization. And again, both of us being in this industry for a while, we've seen different concepts of socialization come and go. And different recommendations for how much socialization should happen for puppies or dogs in general. And sometimes it's gotten a little bit maybe too much towards over socialization, if that's a word I guess we're looking for is where the dots are being overexposed to things which are actually becoming detrimental in some cases. So what are your thoughts on that? What are your feelings about the socialization that's happening nowadays? Well,

Unknown: 43:12

I think there are a couple of problems. The one of them is that because of a very real and absolutely reasonable, worried by veterinarians that dogs are going to get ill, they're told that they have to keep their dogs in at home until the dogs third DH LPP. That is to me, it's detrimental for the dog's well being the American Veterinary Association actually did come out with a position and papers saying, if the dog can be socialized appropriately without access or without being exposed to, you know, diseases that would be really good before that, so but that's one thing, and that that is, obviously you can have opinions about it, but there is a medical aspect to it that is undeniable. But I think what happens from our point of view is that people have been thinking that possibly they need to immerse their dog and socialization and that the dog needs to meet Brazilian people and a Brazilian dogs and all that kind of stuff. And in my opinion, what we need to be doing with our dogs is actually exposing them to the world and not immersing them. They need to be safe, they need know they're safe, and at the same time, they see everything that they need to see. So when we've raised puppies for the shelter, for a couple of shelters and several, several it's gonna say several loads of puppies are on several litters. And what we tend to do is take the puppies out at about five weeks in front packs, so that they can walk around shopping center dollars or places like that. So they say, really start taking in the world. And understanding that, you know, human beings come in all shapes and sizes and colors and everything else. And then I remember with one litter of puppies, they were, they're just three puppies in the litter. And we took them to a Starbucks and sat outside the Starbucks, and they got to meet bikers. So, these puppies, we're not afraid of anything, I can tell you that. But you know, but we don't ask people to pet them. We don't, they don't, they don't get intruded upon their space needs are being taken care of they're, you know, being honored. But they see everything. And the same thing with dogs, you can take them on a trail in a, in a front pack, if you need to do that, if they're pretty small, you know, so you take them places where they're not going to be exposed to a lot of dog poop or places that you know, there's not a lot of water. I remember when I learned that what you need to worry about is things that are wet, because that's how most viruses and bacteria are carried is through wet. So you've, if you're on a sidewalk, you're probably fine. Just avoid any dog poop that somebody has left there. And then just show them what's going on. But you're the primary caregiver, and they need to know that you're the primary caregiver. And you know, I've had clients who so misunderstand what socialization is that they take their four month old puppy to a dog park, which is not a good place for a four month old puppy, it's there, likely more than likely to get traumatized. And as we know, trauma, in the first several months, is something that is stored very nicely in the amygdala and doesn't go away. And I usually tell my clients, if you were in a fire, when you're five years old, you're not going to ever get over that fire. If you're in a fire when you're 35 years old, you go okay, well, the 34 relatively good years behind me, I can get over this. So anyway, that's, that's my main beef with it is that I think that sometimes people misunderstand to the extent that they think, Oh, well, the puppy has to learn, you know, like, they might have to learn to be disciplined by another dog, well, maybe, maybe not, you need to know that other dogs are gonna know that the other dog is going to do some, you know, a reasonable job in disciplining, and you can't leave it up to fate.

Michael Shikashio: 47:34

Yeah, so a lot about is advocating for the puppies needs. And not just sort of the old, pass the puppy around in a puppy class, to each person is not a good idea, because you're not advocating because some puppies might be okay with that. But some we may be terrified of being passed around and being taken in. It's sort of like a band of training, and it's in the wrong way, like leaving, like, Alright, now I'm gonna abandon you, and you're gonna go with all these other people you don't know,

Unknown: 48:00

right? And if you think about some of the way puppy classes are held, where they have the puppies, I mean, there are some really good puppy classes where they're, yeah, they're watching the puppies, and they make sure that the puppies are not uncomfortable, but there are others. You know, in some cases, people who run puppy classes are less experienced than people who work with behavior modification on on adult dogs, and they really should be more experienced, because they should know what puppies need and whatnot. But if you put a small puppy or a timid puppy in with a bully puppy, what is that baby going to learn? And it's things that you don't want the puppy to learn, for sure.

Michael Shikashio: 48:44

Other important aspects when you're talking to clients, so you have a lot of experience teaching clients what to do with dogs. And when it comes to this puppy socialization, I think it's some of those nuances come into play, right? So we can't just list the information of you know, expose your puppy to 100 Different people is, it's a recommendation, but it's a very blanket statement that can be easily misconstrued. So along those lines, what tips do you give to an owner or pet guardian to watch for so you can say, Okay, you're gonna take your puppy out for socialization. But here's the things you want to watch for how do you communicate that to somebody that may not be able to recognize subtleties and body language or may not recognize a particular scenario that may be overwhelming for their puppy?

Unknown: 49:29

It's very difficult because you you have to say things like, Okay, your puppy needs to want to go visit that person, before he visits that person. The puppy needs to be making some kind of overture of moving towards the person or the other puppy or whatever. And if the puppy is shrinking back, then don't do it. And you know, there are folks who think well, you know, I think the puppy needs to learn it's okay, but that's not the way to to teach them in just the same way as a timid child, you don't shove them in, you know of a T ball class and go, Okay, I'm leaving now. I mean, it just is not humane. And we're really trying to be humane to our dogs, I think it's really, really important that we do that. So, you know, I would rather under socialize in a way, I mean, I would still rather do a lot of exposure. But if the puppy continuously looks to me, that's really great. And if you, if you think about it, if you are developing a really strong relationship with your dog, where the dog is always turning to you, isn't that exactly what we want? You know, if you think about, like, for instance, Puppy classes, or, or dog parks, which I have truly problems with, you know, a dog park is like, I usually tell my clients, okay, we bred these dogs to bond with us to be part of our families. And we took them away from their own species at about seven, eight weeks of age. And then, you know, we said bond with people, and then we shove them back into an unknown park where there's a whole bunch of dogs who they don't understand. And we say, Okay, go for it have a good time. And some dogs do, and some dogs don't.

Michael Shikashio: 51:21

Yeah, I use that analogy all the time, too. It's like taking a two year old child to a biker bar. Right, nothing against bikers, we use bikers a couple of times, podcasts, not that it gets bikers in the biker community. But it's the image I'm using imageries. Like, it's like taking a two year old child to a biker bar and seeing what happens. There you go, see you later, I'll go on my cell phone on the coffee table and see what you do.

Unknown: 51:43

I usually say it's like taking them to a cocktail party where you don't know anybody never got nice drunk, right? So

Michael Shikashio: 51:51

you never know what kind of fights can break out. No people can get diseases, all kinds of stuff can happen stuff. So before we wrap up the show, I'd love to again, just to pick up your pick, pick your brain, I should say about your wisdom in the dog training community in terms of what you see if you had one big takeaway from all your years of experience in which you would want to give to the younger generation? What would it be? I know I'm putting you on the spot. But it's a big question. It's a big question. But you know, I know someone like you has so much information and knowledge from learning over these years and seeing so many things, I'm sure, change over the years and develop in some good ways in some bad ways. But getting into it, the most

Unknown: 52:37

important thing is to keep an open mind. Right? It's to actually think something needs to be proven bad, not that you accept everything you obviously don't. But to keep an open mind to start learning from everybody that you can I tell you, where I've learned an awful lot of my work with fearful dogs is by reading horse books. They're fascinating. And particularly because horses are prey species. So their primary emotion is fear. So they're going to use flight whenever they can. And so you get this extremely strong response. And it's part of our responses in our dogs. And it can teach you how to help the dog. And certainly how to understand your dog. You know, I always tell people, they can't speak English, you're you really need to learn. And they learn us better than we learn them all the time. So learn from your dogs, keep an open mind learn from your dogs. And don't think well I can't do this because nobody else does it. It's kind of like anything good. You go. What would be the reason why I shouldn't do it? What would be the reason why you shouldn't do it? What can my dog learn? What can I learn? That way you actually will be part of a next generation of people who make huge inroads on a behavior problem, because, by golly, we still have an awful lot of behavior problems. And a lot of them are caused by our society. We have unrealistic expectations of our animals. But they're here. And we're here. So we have to make it work somehow. I think one of the funny things that people do is they don't have to take my dog for a walk every day. No, you don't. You don't have to give your dog stimulation every day. You don't have to take your dog for a walk every day. If you live someplace where going for a walk is like you know you need to take a machine gun. Perhaps you should not go for

Michael Shikashio: 54:46

excellent advice all around. And Trish. I really appreciate everything you've done and learning from you as well. And I hope to continue passing on the knowledge that you've taught me to others so they can continue to pass it on as well. So Where can people find you? What are you up to these days? For projects? What would you like to show? Well,

Unknown: 55:05

let me see, I'm probably going to be doing a webinar for puppy works. And I actually around here, work with rescues and do seminars now in person seminars, exciting. And you can find me and my partner on canine behavior associates.com. Or if that's too complicated, you can just go to Trish king.net, and it'll send you there. And then I teach an academy it's not live at this point, again, because of the pandemic. So you've signed up for their seminar type classes. People really like them. They're usually I think, a jumping off point for a lot of people. So you can just get that by going to my website and signing up for them.

Michael Shikashio: 55:51

Fantastic. And I'll be sure to link to all that in the show notes. Trish, thank you again, I really appreciate you coming on and having a wonderful conversation with me. Okay, well,

Unknown: 56:01

thank you so much for asking. I really appreciate it.

Michael Shikashio: 56:05

Thanks for joining me in this conversation with the amazing Trish King. If you liked the show, please don't forget to subscribe, share and give a rating and hop on over to aggressive dog.com For more information about helping dogs with aggression. From the aggression in dogs master course two webinars from world renowned experts, and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs