Leslie McDevitt MLA, CDBC, CPDT-KA

You might have heard the saying that "dog training is both an art and science." And I kind of agree with that statement because training plans, even when rigorously based in science, can often benefit from creative thinking.
I can’t think of any other trainer that thinks more creatively in the work she has done with dogs, especially the dogs who have issues on-leash. Leslie McDevitt's "Look at That" (L.A.T.) from her seminal work with the Control Unleashed series is just one example of the outside the box thinking that goes on in her brain, and in this episode we chat about an awesome variety of ideas where Leslie’s creativity shines through including things like LATTE, Cooperative Counter Conditioning, and Pattern Games, all used to help dogs with aggression.

For additional resources on helping dogs with aggression, visit:
https://aggressivedog.com

If you want to take your knowledge and skills for helping dogs with aggression to the next level, check out the Aggression in Dogs Master Course and get a FREE preview here:
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/courses/aggression-in-dogs

Don't miss out on the third annual Aggression in Dogs Conference  9/30-10/2/22:
https://aggressivedog.com/conference/

Woof Cultr swag!
https://woofcultr.com/collections/the-aggression-in-dogs-conference

About Leslie:

Leslie McDevitt, MLA, CDBC, CPDT-KA is the author of the internationally popular Control Unleashed series of books and DVDs. Her books have been translated into many languages, and she has helped people all over the world learn how to use her science-based methods to help companion, performance, and working dogs learn how to functional optimally without stress in very challenging environments.
For close to twenty years, Leslie's methods have empowered diverse populations of dogs--companion dogs, shelter dogs, competitive performance dogs, K9 SAR and detection dogs, therapy dogs, and more. If you have a dog that worries about stuff that happens—other dogs, people, noises, the unexpected–or you are a giant behavior nerd that is interested in counter conditioning with an operant base using  startbutton behaviors--Leslie has lots of tools for you. 
Leslie has taught all over the world, and is especially proud of her roles as Clicker Expo Speaker and consultant for the Penn Vet Working Dog Center. She is also very proud of her ever-growing number of CCUIS, Certified Control Unleashed Instructors. Leslie lives outside of Philadelphia with children, dogs, cats, a bunny and a pony. And a husband.

Friends of Control Unleashed FB Group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/298300721554

http://www.controlunleashed.net

Transcript

Michael Shikashio: 0:02

You might have heard that saying that dog training is both an art and a science. And I kind of agree with that statement because training plans, even when rigorously based in science can often benefit from creative thinking. I can't think of any other trainer that thinks more creatively in the work she has done with dogs, especially the dogs who have issues on leash, Leslie McDevitt look at that, from her seminal work with the control unleashed series is just one example of the outside of the box thinking that goes on in her brain. And in this episode, we chat about an awesome variety of ideas, where Leslie's creativity shines through, including things like latte, cooperative counter conditioning, and pattern games, all used to help dogs with aggression. And if you are working with aggression cases, or plan on taking aggression cases as a trainer, or maybe you're even struggling with your own dog, we have a variety of educational opportunities just for you, including the upcoming aggression in dogs conference happening from September 30 Through October 2 2022. in Providence, Rhode Island, with both in person and online options. You can also learn more about the aggression in dogs master course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues by going to aggressive dog.com. And special thanks to John masala for editing the podcast this season, and bringing the production to the next level. Welcome back to the by the end of the dog, I'm here with the one and only Leslie McDevitt who is the author of the internationally popular control unleashed series of books and DVDs. Her books have been translated into many languages, and people all over the world have learned how to use her science based and empowering methods to help companion performance and working dogs learn how to function optimally without stress and very challenging environments. If you have a dog that worries about stuff, other dogs, people noises, the unexpected. Leslie has many fun counterconditioning games just for you. Leslie is a popular conference speaker, and is especially proud to be a presenter at clicker Expo and a consultant for the Penn vet working dog Center. She also has runs an awesome Facebook group called Friends of control unleashed if you guys want to check that out as well. I'm super excited to get to this podcast because there's a lot of things we get to talk about. So welcome to the show, Leslie. Hello. It's great to have you here. You know, I was thinking this morning about when you were writing control unleashed, and you had the section on look at that. I thought to myself, I wonder what Lesley thought when she was writing that section about just how many dogs and people she's going to help with that little section of her book, and how it's going to balloon to this huge thing where everybody's using and then making different iterations of it and things and, and you're really in the top list of like most influential people for dogs and have issues out on walks really, when you think about it like that, look at that concept. It's been shared and used in and now it's worldwide. So how do you feel about that?

Unknown: 3:00

It's I mean, it's crazy. Because when I wrote the book, I didn't know that anybody. I mean, I had people that were reading my articles. And that's how the book started. And obviously my own students and everything using look at that and the other stuff, but I mean, I, I didn't know what was gonna happen for sure. Yeah.

Michael Shikashio: 3:21

And it's, you know, let's face it, you have this incredibly creative mind, especially when it comes to dog training and behavior. And you know, you have these awesome concepts. We're going to talk about all them throughout the episode, but it's the, you know, what in your mind said, Alright, I'm gonna actually teach my dog to look at things in the Vironment because the old way of doing things were like, we want the dog to ignore everything, or watch me or forget about everything else in the world and just focus on the handler or the owner, but what made it go let's do the opposite. Let's actually teach our dogs to look at those things in the environment.

Unknown: 3:52

One reason is just my my oppositional temperament. If you told me to do something, I'm gonna do the opposite thing, but figure out how to make that work better. So now that my kids have that same temperament at least I understand that Yeah, but you know, I did come from the place of like conditioning, a lot of eye contact around other stuff. But I was always aware of a kind of behavior chain emerging where when they see things they know to then turn back and look at you so you're turning something in the environment into a cue to pay attention to you and so it doesn't have to be like a fight like it's either you see this thing or you see me because stuff out in the world can remind you to turn and look at me, right and then I watched a, you know, TV, commercial movie, trainer thing, and they were talking about teaching the animal to visually find their a mark and look at it. And so that's different because they need duration of walking in a certain direction. I don't I don't want duration with look at that I just want the dog to kind of glance towards something and back to me. But it gave me that idea about, maybe there's a cue for that too, because the more kind of structure or framing you put around and experience, the less reactivity you get, you know, if you name something, name it and reframe it, I'd like to say that, because you're sort of normalizing it then. And then also, I heard Pam Reed, talk about the concept of putting, quote unquote, bad behavior on cue. That was just right up my alley. And so I thought, you know, I'm going to teach them to look at things on cue. For me, the thing is, I wish I hadn't named it Look at that, it's really like, I should have called it something like the Find It game or the reported game, because really, I don't actually care if they're looking or seeing it something, they're learning to use some kind of indicator behavior. And now this was before, like a nosework was a thing. But now people that do the nosework sport, understand the dogs can use a behavior to indicate they found a scent that you can't smell, right, whether it's like turning and looking at you, or whatever they're doing, look at that is similar in terms of, they're using some kind of behavior, some kind of orienting towards something, and then back to you. So they don't have to, like turn their head and stare at something, you know, oftentimes, they start flipping their ear back, like in the direction of the thing, you know, or just like a slight head tilt, or, you know, some really minor subtle, small thing. And that's their way of communicating with you, they know something's there, they know that they're going to get paid for reporting it to you, they don't really need to turn all the way around, if they're getting rewarded for more subtle behavior. So you get this very, these very sort of small indicating behaviors. And you can do it for sounds or smells, because they can just, you know, orient in some way with their eyes, ears, nose, not forward movement, just something with their head, and tell you the direction that some stimulus is coming from. So it really didn't have to be about looking. And I think people have taken it to like, if they're seeing something calmly or something like that, and it's really much more about having a conversation with you about what's out there. And the sensitization is happening, because it does, but I'm really more focused on sort of a rate relational operant training that they can use the environment to get paid to report something to you. That's another one, I like to say, now be a reporter, not a reactor. You know, so if another dog shows up on your walk, they can be like this just in, you know, and they can tell you, you know, so it's not really about watching the other things so much.

Michael Shikashio: 8:02

Yeah, it's, it's kind of hard to come up with a good acronym with reporting in it. Yeah, look at that as a as an easier acronym to remember. Right? When you are developing it, were you thinking about the classical conditioning aspect of it. So like, the whole Pavlov was on your shoulder saying, where there's elements of classical conditioning, classical counter conditioning that can kind of seep into our procedure there. Was that on your mind in the forefront? Are we just kind of concentrating on let's do that apparently,

Unknown: 8:32

that issue was always on my mind the way that Pavlov is always on your shoulder, whatever, like a, like an old wise parrot. It just happens. I don't spend a lot of time planning for it to happen because it's there, as long as I'm working with my operant counter conditioning stuff, which is what I like to do. So you know, sub threshold below a point where dog is going to have any feelings of concern or discomfort, that desensitization is going to happen as well.

Michael Shikashio: 8:59

And you've added in now, more letters to that acronym. So instead of La Tea, tea tea, I've seen that as well. So what is that? Yeah,

Unknown: 9:10

I'm, I'm not taking the blame for adding those letters. No, so I have a kind of new game, if you want to call it a procedure, we're calling it latte which was a joke, it stands for look at that then enrichment. So I wanted to do something that changed the feeding strategy for look at that, so that you could use it in more contexts. So with look at that, it creates a real like working type relationship where the dog is really focused on you. And you know, a high rate of reinforcement. I wondered if like, you were at a park or out in the world somewhere and something was happening, and you didn't and you wanted to the dog to just be able to stay there. AR and chill out. Whereas look at that would be, you're moving past something, you know, you're watching something, you know, I started out with a lot of sport dogs, you know, you're watching another dog do agility, you need to be able to turn and report it to me instead of bark at that dog, you know. And so it wasn't something where you're just relaxing as something's happening, the person doesn't need so much hand or focus. So what I did was change the feeding strategy. So rather than, like, the behavior chain, where they turn, orient towards something and turn it back to you eats, I started putting out all kinds of like enrichment toys. When I had the first virtual controlling leash conference, the looking at people sponsored us, and they sent me like 50 Looking mats. And so that's probably also part of why I created this because I suddenly had all this stuff. And so you know, what I do with lots I put out a loop, I like moving things in circles. So you know, big circle of looka mats. And that way, you know, you could play look at that they see something they turn back to you, instead of just a treat. It's a bunch of stuff, you know, that they can lick to smell explore. So they have more time in place. And so for something like, you know, I was at the park with my young Belgian Shepherd, and I was taking him to this area where he lives and they're having a bird watchers meeting there. And there was like 50 people, and I wanted to stay in that general area, I wanted him to not just keep reporting to me about the people or in the birdwatching place, but I wanted him to just actually like sniff grass and pee on things and do that. So I used this feeding strategy instead, because it gives them a longer time to not be like working mode actively engaged, right. And like another example is a student that had ponies on her property. And she didn't want the dog to bark. But she wanted the dog to be able to just be out there. And look at that is helpful for that too, because it's desensitizing them while they're seeing things, but they've worked really nicely to just put out a loop and the dog could work the way around, stay at each place for a period of time. And it's encouraging like those more like natural behaviors of like foraging exploring, which is good for the brain. So they're, they're getting that piece of it while they're getting used to things being there. So yeah,

Michael Shikashio: 12:31

it's a question I get a lot too. Yeah, it's about the benefits of feeding on the ground. Or they said people ask me, like do toss treats on the ground? Or do you do longer feeds or duration feeds or street scatters those kinds of things? And what are the benefits of it? And I think there's quite a bit of benefit for him, at least his stress reduction standpoint, as well as the enrichment standpoint, because, as you mentioned, gives the dog time to kind of just right, alright, I can take a break here, go sniff go, you know, for those treats, got it versus just that one and done kind of treat.

Unknown: 12:59

Right. Exactly with that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it depends, it depends on the context on what's going on around you, and what that dog needs. I think that there's room for both, like, have more tools have more feeding strategies, you know, it's kind of funny, but I actually have seen it the most with the duration feeding, like you said, I've seen the most difference. Using that with my horse, not with dogs, you know, that it just automatically activates that whole Oh, I'm grazing is a little bit different. It's interesting, you know, a lot of clicker trained horses, they get conditioned to do a head a head lower behavior, so that plus feeding on the ground, you know, it's like, I just see her calm, you know, kulturecity Well, I'd say for horses, like the other day, somebody was, you know, mowing, and they were like riding the thing, you know, next to her pan and all that that was a great, I have, I have a little video of it, too.

Michael Shikashio: 14:01

That's the power of video, too. I love that you capture so much on video to share with the rest of us. The question that was coming to mind was the adjustments you make based on and this is this podcast is being recorded right about the time that social media is exploding with that recent study. All the articles coming out about it will quote diving into that but do you make adjustments for when somebody's using look at that for certain characteristics or breed traits? So let's let's use an example. Like, you know, if you've got a dog, oftentimes we're using it for dogs that are, you know, nervous or fearful of the environment or having a tough time in the environment. But what if you're looking at some of the more breed specific entities like a maybe a Belgian Malinois, that's how dare you to protect their honor or livestock Guardian dog and we actually, we sometimes run a risk of shaping that behavior maybe in the wrong direction. And do you make adjustments or see that happen?

Unknown: 15:03

No, I haven't, because the behavior is not watching something, the behavior is turning away and showing you where it is. And so it's, it's framing, seeing something into a structure that that is helping the dog stay in this sort of operant, I'm working in eating cookies, state of mind, which is the opposite of, oh, I'm now in the part of my brain where i, where i use a strong eye or stalk, you know, or those those types of predatory behaviors, because it's a different part of the brain that we're accessing when we're doing counter conditioning work. So it's actually quite good for dogs that do that.

Michael Shikashio: 15:46

Let me dig a little deeper then. So let's say we have a dog without any fear issues or any you're not noticing any anxiety. So if we were to replace, you know, guarding the owner with a lab chasing down a tennis ball or retriever, or a pointer pointing at something, we can argue that there's no, that is a different part of the brain in play, right? So it's not fear based. Yeah. And at the dose kind of just doing what they're doing. So if we go back to that Belgian Malinois or livestock Guardian dog on their property, and we start marking for looking or, or reinforcing for looking and then looking back at the handler, do you see any risks in those cases? Or we're not

Unknown: 16:21

reinforcing for looking right, we're reinforced for indicating? Yes. So you can think of it as like a visual noise work, I found something and I turned around, and it's that part that's getting reinforced, if we were accidentally reinforcing for look egg, which in this context is related to like the motor pattern i with a capital E, slash stock, right? Just what I don't want, then you'd be getting more of that. So if you're playing look at that you're getting a dog that is looking at you and really not the other thing at all, or maybe to being an ear. That's the irony, right? They're not looking at that, if you're getting a dog that was moving into the those motor patterns, and really watching something, yeah, that I would call that first of all, quote, unquote, over threshold for playing this game, you know, if the dog isn't quickly turning back to you, and able to eat and able to offer operant behavior, they're quote, unquote, over the threshold for that game. So that means they need distance or cut down on the visual stimulus, like, for example, they're looking at a helper and the helpers moving around, it's too much, you know, they're not turning back quickly, they're starting to look, I talk about going from the Orient behavior, just notice to i with a capital H, which is a little bit more intensity a little different. And that's the start of like, a motor pattern we don't want, right? So as long as they're kind of glancing at things turning around eating, it's not an issue. If they're going from that space to that eye space, the eye stock space, then you need to change some conditions. Right? So again, if the helpers moving around, the first thing you could do is have the helper stop moving, and then see how much with the latency is there if the dog is turning back faster or not? If the dog is the dog eating right away, like because that's what you need, right? You know, you can change distance, you can do a number of things. If the dog is doing those things, then that is giving you information about you to play with these conditions and fix something something's not working.

Michael Shikashio: 18:28

So a good or having good observation skills, I should say is important part of it. But the nice thing about it, though, I also find is that it's hard to screw it up. Right? You look at that, and it's really it's it's one of the types of and I love the choice of words, using game instead of procedure, right behavior plans,

Unknown: 18:46

that comes from being an agility, former agility person, everything works

Michael Shikashio: 18:50

better, though, you know, game makes it much more, you know, you we move away from all the stuff I was just talking about where we actually were looking, we wanted to make sure that that dog is actually comfortable in their environment to do that game.

Unknown: 19:02

It's an observation game, like, just playing observation games, there's no pressure on us as trainers.

Michael Shikashio: 19:08

Alright, I can't think of a good acronym for that one, either. So. So the Speaking of games, let's jump into pattern games and how you came up with that. So real quick, what what is pattern games for those that may not have heard of it?

Unknown: 19:23

So I tend to see things in patterns, because I may be crazy, but um, it helps animals feel better to know that something is predictable that there's a structure or a set of rules or a script associated with certain contexts. So they go, Oh, the clown is arrived. Well, that means I'm going to do this and then that's going to happen and then that's gonna happen. So you know, a pattern is just kind of like several things that just keep repeating. So that's one aspect of it. And then you can start kind of Doing some environmental exposure to various things. But while the dog is already operating within a pattern framework, so they're like, oh my god, I just saw that clown. I'm not anti clown really. And now, and but now I'm back to doing these same repetitive three things. So rather than just walking down the street and seeing another dog and being surprised by that, if they're walking down the street, within one of these pattern games, okay, they're already sort of working within a framework where they can see something and go, Oh, well, but that's just part of my pattern. During this pattern, I see things and then I turn back and I eat and then this happens. And so it's the way I've given you a structure. And I have ones for one year moving ones for one year, not moving different things you can fit to your situation.

Michael Shikashio: 20:50

So what and Lesley MC debits brain made you think of, I'm going to teach patterns to dogs to really help them out, like what was Was there a moment where you're like, This is something I can really incorporate in lots of different activities or games, or that's going to help dogs out.

Unknown: 21:07

So I think it's about that idea of like a portable rule structure. So, you know, my mentor was at the behavior department at the University of Pennsylvania. Right. And she talked to Dr. Karen, overall, veterinary behaviorist, some of you know, and she talks a lot about the idea of a rule structure that dogs that are anxious, feel better, obviously, just like we do, when they know what to expect, her relaxation protocol has a lot to do with that, you know, I have a lifetime of, of therapy, meditation, different things for my anxiety, as well as working with anxious dogs, and that idea of a structure. So you see things but you're within a framework that is predictable and safe. I just immediately was like, oh, and so this idea of, of different patterns you can use for different contexts is a related to that, you know.

Michael Shikashio: 22:09

So what I've seen from the pattern games is oftentimes, and I've used it in my own with my own clients, and they love it. It's especially useful for when you're out on walks, and you're trying to get a dog by something in the standard I've seen is, you know, counting 23123, then Treat 123 Treat. And so is there any particular framework or rule for like, how many times you count or what words you use, or So walk us through that a little bit more.

Unknown: 22:36

So in terms of a pattern, what matters is that it is a pattern that both you and the animal because it's not just dogs, but the both you and the animal recognize that it's a pattern. And from that point on, you can make up your own thing with the one that you mentioned 123. So I just teach dogs that if they hear three, it means a treats coming. So they're kind of three suddenly has a meaning and a value. And no, it doesn't have to be three, just three sounds that happen in the same order. That's, you know, I'm saying it doesn't have to be, doesn't have to be counting, but whatever, right? And then I back chain it. So I say two, and then I say three, so they're learning and then one, two, so they're learning if they hear one and twos coming. And if they hear twos threes coming in, if they hear three, a trade is coming. Yeah, I use that one a lot for for movement, when you need to move from one point to another past something. One thing is this idea of a set of rules that you can plug the environment into that helps you feel like things are predictable. But this is my other big thing. The idea of dogs controlling the game, the idea of dogs using behavior to say, I'm ready to do the next wrap. Right? That's like my big thing right now. So with the 123 pattern I just mentioned, the dog is not controlling the next rap. It's pure, like you said, Pavlov is on your shoulder, you heard three, here's a treat. But then there's another version of that pattern, where instead of feeding from my hand, I'm going to put the treat on the ground. And the reason why is because that gives the dog an opportunity to look up at me like where's my next trait? And that's gonna make me start counting 123 again. And so in that way, if I'm doing like a counter conditioning and say, about walking towards something or walking past something, the dog now has the control to tell me if he wants me to to walk the next rep. That doesn't have to be three steps. I could say one and walk five steps. You know what I'm saying? I would start out with three steps. And once they get the idea, they're trusting that they're hearing three, you can walk across the whole room and 1123 REP. Okay. But in looking up, they have signed the contracts with me saying like, Yes, I know if I do that in this context, you're gonna move that way. And so that's part of it, too.

Michael Shikashio: 24:56

I have additional questions. So the Have you ever Seeing there's a limit to how many steps are pieces of that pattern? Can you count to like 100? For some dogs? Or is there? Have you seen a limitation to how long in that pattern?

Unknown: 25:10

Well, it's just three means the treat, see. And then you start over, there's no limit to how many steps you can end up taking in between counting.

Michael Shikashio: 25:20

Can you count? Well, let's, let's say start with 20. And here's a treat 20 years 20? Do you think some dogs will be able to pick up that entire pattern of starting from counting from one? If you

Unknown: 25:31

Yeah, I don't see why not. I mean, the thing about patterns is that like, they're in nature, like we survive by understanding and predicting them. It's there and animals learn them. I mean, if someone gave me 50 bucks every time they said 20, and I figured out that certain sounds come before that I'm going to notice,

Michael Shikashio: 25:53

do you see an issue with the duration between each component of the pattern. So if I say, if I'm going across the room, or going past, let's say, scary dog, and we're under threshold where to God, we've got enough distance, I'm like, right one, and then I pause for a long time to like, take 10 steps and pause and then two, right and find the third step happens at like, 30 meters in do you see a problem with that?

Unknown: 26:16

I don't, because if I'm gonna do that, the dog is like, really, the dog is there, I only actually do that when I'm teaching group classes. And dogs have practiced so much that it's just not a thing. And they're all passing each other. And they no three happens at some point. You know, if I'm teaching a lesson, I'm not going to take a million steps in between things. The other day I was, I've been working with a dog that my friends have been, they go to the Turks and Caicos, and they take some island dogs sometimes, and I've been working with one. The other day, I was always teasing him. I was just saying random stuff. And between counting to make sure I was still listening, I was like, one and then I was like, Supercalifragilistic, XBLA. And, you know, the owner was a little bit stressful, you know, the dog is barking and other dogs and this and that. But I can see him like kind of smiling because he's making up stupid words, you know? But yeah, if they're not listening and waiting for the next thing that makes sense, and is predictable, then they're over threshold, you have to fix what you're doing. It's that simple.

Michael Shikashio: 27:24

Either that, or they haven't really established the pattern. Right? So you're, you're kind of really looking for that. That attentive response. Better description.

Unknown: 27:33

Exactly. This was not this was not my intention. But a lot of people now are using the 123 game as part of their recall training. Because when you go, one, the dogs have been sniffing around or something they're like, is to coming next.

Michael Shikashio: 27:52

How does that make you feel that you know, so many of your concepts, they're often taken, borrowed, stolen? Credit. Frank and dined. And then adapted to different techniques, some really great ones, some really creative ones, and then sometimes some that you probably

Unknown: 28:12

may not have met.

Michael Shikashio: 28:14

And but it's sometimes you get credited, sometimes you don't like what does that make you think in your mind when you see like, maybe on another part of the world you traveled to? And and suddenly somebody's talking about your work and controlling these control nation? That is how you see it's completely different iteration of what you mentor,

Unknown: 28:29

right? And there's like, six translations of the original book that I can't read. All of you say, No, it's, it's weird. And I say often, this is not written in stone. Like, what's important here is there's a rule structure that you both have agreed to, or whatever. Now do now go and make your thing, right. So I want to encourage that being flexible, being creative, right? On the other hand, I don't want people to misunderstand it or misrepresent it. So I try to put things out there and be as clear as I can and, and all that stuff. So it's it's a mixed bag. So John, giant, unexpected and mixed bag. Yeah, and like the recall thing with 123. If that's working, that's fine. I mean, I do say like, you can use it as a test. Like, if you say one, and they're not looking up. Sometimes you say to when they do look up, sometimes they don't look up until you've said three, the contract. And that pattern is just when you say three feed, that's it. They don't have to be doing anything else. But if you're using it for a recall, and you want one to mean Come, something has to happen after you've said why you know what I mean? So, yeah, use it but you have to, you have to know what you're doing and make it to make it fair and to make it work.

Michael Shikashio: 29:56

Yeah, one really cool adaptation I've seen is with Dr. Linlin cows, when she's using it for care,

Unknown: 30:04

yes, she is. She's one of my mentees. And I love when I mentor people, and then I shove them out there and make them present on their stuff.

Michael Shikashio: 30:16

Yeah, she's doing a great job on social media to posting our work with that. So shout out to Linlin.

Unknown: 30:22

Yes. Also, another one of my mentees, both of them are certified to be controlling relation structures, Linlin and Amy, Gavin Glasgow was the other one. She started doing a lot of muscle training with 123, you know, and then three, and then the muzzle goes on. And then a treat. And then Linlin has done a tremendous amount of work on all the cooperative care stuff using putting cooperative care into the context of of a pattern. And so that's, that's super cool. I love that.

Michael Shikashio: 30:53

Yeah, it is. It's awesome to see, we're gonna take a short break, and we're gonna jump right back into some other concepts like cooperative counter conditioning. Take a break. We'll be right back. Hey, friends, it's me again. And I hope you are enjoying this episode, you may have figured out that something I deeply care about is helping dogs with aggression issues live less stressful, less confined, more enriched, and overall happy lives with their guardians. Aggression is so often misunderstood. And we can change that through continued education, like we received from so many of the wonderful guests on this podcast. In addition to the podcast, I have two other opportunities for anyone looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, which include the aggression in dogs master course, and the aggression in dogs conference. If you want to learn more about the most comprehensive course on aggression toward anywhere in the world, head on over to aggressive dog.com and click on the dog pros tab, and then the master course. The course gives you access to 23 modules on everything from assessment to safety to medical issues to the behavior change plans we often use in a number of different cases, including lessons taught by Dr. Chris pockle. Kim Brophy in Jessica Dolce. You'll also receive access to a private Facebook group with over 1000 of your fellow colleagues, and dog pros all working with aggression cases. After you finish the course you also gain access to private live group mentor sessions with me where we work through practicing many different cases together. If you need see us, we've got you covered. We're approved for just about every major training and behavior credential out there. This is truly the flagship course offered on aggression in dogs, and it's perfect for pet pros that want to set themselves apart and take their knowledge and expertise to the next level or even for pet owners who are seeking information to help your own dog. And don't forget to join me for the third annual aggression in dogs conference either in person or mine from Providence, Rhode Island on September 30 Through October 2 2022. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you might have heard on the podcast including Suzanne Cole the air, Jen Shryock, Simone Mueller, Dr. Ampere, Batson Kim Brophy, charisma voire, Lauren Monaco, tirelli, Dr. Simone Gadbois, and many more, head on over to aggressive dog.com and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and leash reactivity to using positive reinforcement to work with predatory behavior. And if you'd like to show off your support for the podcast this year, we teamed up again with the folks over at Wolf culture for some catchy limited run conference merchandise. Wolf culture is known for their witty, nerdy, endo nonsense apparel that was created in 2019. To spread more awareness towards the use of humane training methods. Their powerful is here to help you start conversations, advocate for your animals and rep force retraining in a different way. Don't forget to get your conference gear, it leaves the site after 1231 2022. If you want 10% off your order, use the code bitey 10, bi t y one zero at checkout. All right, we're back here with the one and only Leslie McDevitt. And we are going to jump into some more concepts or games that we've been calling them. And one that we Lesley and I were chatting about probably a couple of years back was this concept of cooperative counter conditioning. And it's really an awesome thing for especially for intra household Dog Dog aggression cases, dogs interesting over resources, certainly something I've used. And I've seen some of your work doing it. So let's talk more about that. First. Again, the quick definition of what it is and just in case anybody hasn't heard about it.

Unknown: 34:41

Okay, well, counter conditioning just means you want to change with how the dog is feeling about a certain thing. Right? So you want to change their association with what happens when they experienced that thing. And cooperative meaning that you and the animal have signed a con trying to like certain things are gonna happen and they're okay with it, they can even direct it, they can do a certain behavior, like in the context of animal husbandry, let's say nail trimming, right? Cooperative nail trimming. Or you can use the word voluntary to mean the same thing, you know, the dogs, sticks his paw out. And that means you're allowed to clip a nail, and then you maybe put a tree on the ground. And each that sticks as Paul back out, you're allowed to clip the second nail. So, you know, which is is kind of a pattern, you know, things start to feel like a pattern, it's predictable, and the dog can direct it with some some kind of behavior that has been agreed on, it's going to start the next loop. So cooperative counter conditioning is just the dog gets to say, yes, let's do the next counter conditioning piece of this. So you know, in the context of like, 123, pattern game that we're talking about, the dog looks up at you that makes you do the next 123, that's gonna end in a treat, and then that gives the dog the chance to look up at you again. And if they don't, they're looking around, they're sniffing, they're doing something else, you're not gonna go in that direction, you can wait for them, you could turn around and walk in a different direction to see if they needed more distance, or whatever. But the contract was, if you look at me, after I put a treat on the ground, then I'm going to start counting. And I'm going to go in this direction, because it's thrash and we're facing. And if you don't, I'm not. And so that's what I mean, when I say cooperative counter conditioning is that it's easy to set the pattern games so that the dogs can direct it. And I like to use attention, as you know, a behavior, it doesn't have to be eye contact, but just kind of like looking up just being oriented towards you being relational with you. If the dogs not doing that, they're, they're not, they're not in the game. So I'm not going to continue the pattern. So that's what I mean, that's what I'm using it for. And I stole it from the husbandry people, the idea of cooperative care, right, because I love that stuff. But um, my focus is on like anxiety about like, social anxiety, not anxiety about getting your nails trimmed, or whatever. So I took it and said, How am I going to explain this to people that the dogs can be in control?

Michael Shikashio: 37:16

Yeah, exactly. So sort of also may be referred to as Start Button behavior, or basically the dog communicating I'm, as you mentioned, ready to go to the next step or ready for this next thing to happen in this world. And, you know, we were talking also about how we can use that for dogs that are competing for resources. So, you know, if we think about the sort of the history or the timeline of how we used to approach this, you know, way back in the day be like, alright, two dogs are fighting over bones or something like that. So that's going way back, or maybe, maybe not so much. cases, but the, you know, we, we would say, Okay, you guys just want to separate you guys while you're eating your bones, problem solved. And then we got to let's teach you guys to station aren't going just you know, you can be near each other, we're just gonna make sure you guys stay in your own places, then we maybe start to add an element of classical conditioning, classical conditioning, where you're chewing on your bone, the other dog enters his room and good stuff happens, you know. So Mark treats happen when you see dog B in the room, and then dog B leaves into the treat. Stop. So and then you came in with all right, I'm going to teach you to meaning dog a right Give me some stuff on behavior that says you want dog B to approach Yes, that's going to produce a reinforcer for, again, your brilliant mind. Always thinking outside the box. Like you come up with so much stuff, I don't think you even remember sometimes. We talk about we shoot a lot of ideas back and forth. But you, you you had we talked about this last year again, or maybe it was even before that, but so let's talk more about that. I pulled that voluntary sharing, voluntary sharing. Yeah, so I've messed up my acronyms, but there's no acronym for that. vs. Yeah. So, yeah, voluntary sharing where so let's talk more about that, where it's

Unknown: 39:08

like the dog dog, as a working dog tell you to give a resource to the helper dog. Because if you're in control, you feel better. And also, once that the helper dog has the resource, then the working dog will also get one. That's how he gets one, right by telling you to go ahead and give one to the other one. Yeah, so yeah, works great. Also, it's funny. Basically, I come up with things that are going to make me laugh, like telling me to give treats to another dog.

Michael Shikashio: 39:43

Or we pick about dogs actually sharing

Unknown: 39:46

Yes, it's very cute and or like a dog telling you to pet the cat that used to chase the cat. Now, you know, does a voluntary behavior tells you you can pet the cat you know just stuff like that and you're like what?

Michael Shikashio: 39:58

Alright, so some of the listeners are proud Are we thinking alright, so what does this look like when you do it or you start training this. So describe that let's use the cat as the example. And you've got a dog that formerly was jealous about the cat being pet, so would come over and maybe push their nose in or worse, and try to get you away from the cat when they see you petting the cat. So what do you do for that? What does the setup look like?

Unknown: 40:18

So, especially if you've already trained a behavior for like cooperative husbandry type work, a big one that people trained for that is a chin rest. So the animal puts their head down on something, whether it's your hand, I'll train it to a hand or a target object, because for voluntary sharing, you want the animal to cue you. And so if you're using your hand as a chin rest, and you take your hand away, because you're feeding them, and you put your hand back out, you're telling the dog, I've stuck my hand out, you can, you should put your chin on it. So you know, I don't want that I want something as a target to be out the whole time. So you know, the dog puts their chin on it. And what I'll do is feed the dog away from the target, so they have to go back there put their chin on. And again, it's like pressing a button to say, do it again. And so you know, I'll train duration of that, they'll learn to stay for a certain amount of seconds with their chin resting on something. I also really liked that behavior because their mouth is closed, that could be lying down while they're doing it's calm. They learn to wait. So they hear a click, and then put a trade out, right. And so that's how a lot of people would start with Cooperative husbandry, the dog puts their chin down, and maybe you pet them, and give them a tray. And then the padding, you're going to turn it into like some light brushing and whatever else, right. And if they move out of position, they break their chin rice before you were done and you stop. So So that's one way you could do voluntary sharing is you you teach a behavior like like a chin rest, it doesn't have to be. And then I teach them, I'll get two bowls out. Now, I don't even know that I had that idea back when I presented it for aggression in dogs. Like at the first conference, I talked about this. But now what I'm doing is I'm putting, I'm putting one bowl out. So the dog does their voluntary behavior, and I put a kibble in their bowl. And then after a bunch of reps of that I take a second bowl, there's no helper animal yet or anything. But I have a second bowl, the dog does the voluntary behavior. And I put a kibble in the second bowl, and then I put one in their bowl, since then the behavior is starting to say, put one in this other bowl, that's not mine. And then I know that mine's next. So now I've added that element in. And then from that point, you could add in a helper animal at whatever distance it is. And I might have them for example, not even taking the treat, but just sitting at a distance, and I'm still putting a treat in the other bowl, and then the working dog bowl, you know, and then maybe I'll put the bowl closer to the helper dog, you can have steps, it doesn't have to be you do this and I'm immediately going to feed this dog, it could be on a put a bowl of this dog is across the room, it depends on the dogs that you have in front of you. But yeah, ultimately it's the working dog is going to put their chin down or do some other behavior. And you're going to put treats and the other dogs thing, you know, if guarding bowls is its own thing that needs to be treated separately, you don't have to put it in a bowl, but it's just, I like to have these kinds of like visual, I'm going to put a treat here. And then I'm going to put one here that's predictable. And this one's going to be yours, you know what I mean? Could be a cardboard box, you know, something that there's no obvious problematic history with. So that's one way you could do this. That's not the only way. That's a way that you could do this with what's called a duration, duration, start button behavior, where the dog is doing something like resting their chin for sort of the whole rap. And it depends on what you want. So you could also do a quick behavior, like the dog makes eye contact with you. And that causes you to put a treat in the other bowl. So it can be something that happens quickly and it's over. Or it can be something that they're really kind of doing for duration. So it's it's kind of depends on your skill level, or if you're working with clients and their skill level, you know, all that.

Michael Shikashio: 44:27

So just to clarify the chin rest, you want them to remain on the chin rest as that cable goes into the second bowl.

Unknown: 44:34

So that's the thing, right? Like, you just have to know how you want things and be consistent. So you could have it as the dog puts their chin down and then they lifted up as you're feeding the other dog. To me the cleanest, purest. Best way to do it is to teach a duration behavior that's happening the whole time until you put a treat for them and they get it It gets, I mean, that's the cleanest thing. So I like to teach my dogs key, you know, it's a duration behavior. So while I'm doing this other thing, I like it, if they're doing it until they hear some cue, that means have this treat. But it doesn't have to be that you just have to be clean, it has to be the same every time. You know, it has to be consistent. It has to be predictable. That's all. And then if they move out of position before the next loop starts, I'm going to feed that to, because otherwise it's not like they're, they're able to say yes or no, if they're only getting fed for Yes, right. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to, I'm going to feed it as a reset trait. So I'm going to put the treat where I would put the treat to move them off the chin rest behavior, they're going to eat it, and then they can decide if they want to put it back or not. And if they do, they say, Okay, I'm gonna go again, I need to make sure that I've changed the conditions a little bit. If I think I know why they stopped doing it, you know?

Michael Shikashio: 46:06

So let me just recap the whole loop then. So if we were dealing with a cat, right, and our dog was jealous about the cat being pet, we want the dog to offer the chin rest, not us cueing it with our hands, right? So the dogs can come over chin rest, which says go pet the cat, right? We pet the cat and then we reduce the reinforcer for the dog. Yes. And let's say it's something not like in a football, let's say where we want to work towards those steps of petting the cat. That's a little trickier, right? Yeah, I wouldn't expect that. Do you make gradual approximations to be like, you can be like Hello Cat or like a cat. And then eventually with the full goal of petting, okay, you

Unknown: 46:45

can absolutely do with that. And, you know, for some dogs, petting them or attention to them can be the reinforcer. So it's like, you tell me to pet the cat. And then I'm going to say hi to you, you know, it can be that. And for others, it might be a treat, or whatever.

Michael Shikashio: 47:02

Do you see situations over resources that this wouldn't be appropriate. Like, if it's a certain type of resource, maybe if it's the owner, maybe it's something that is not as easy to control on the environment.

Unknown: 47:14

Um, I haven't personally seen it, but it's not like I've been going out, like, collecting data on everyone that's used this for everything. I have worked with a few dogs that guarded their owner, if the owner was sitting down, and the other dogs in the household came up to see them. And we've used it with that, that the dogs can learn to tell you to say hi to the other dogs, and then and then them. But you know, it's like each case is its own individual thing with its own conditions and what people are able to do so you know, never do anything that you're not, you don't feel totally 100% comfortable that you know how to set it

Michael Shikashio: 47:58

up, especially in aggression cases, right? Yeah. I'm picturing. I just had this kind of strange thought in my mind about two dogs if you taught the same thing. And let's say that the owner petting them, and they both come over and they just start like rapidfire chin resting. Say, all right, go pet the other dog. No, you bought the other dog.

Unknown: 48:18

It's like, third number that is? Yeah, I mean, it's true, my stuff can put you in wacky places like that. So you may, you may only want to have one dog, my dogs do do a little behaviors to say give it straight to the other dog. But it doesn't like affect our lives. Like my one Border Collie lowers her head slightly, because that's her behavior that she came up with. That makes me do things. But yeah, if it was like dangerous, then like, I can be maybe Messier in terms of my dogs can can offer behavior, and I can dole out things. And if you can't be, then you have to figure that out. And it may be that there's a specific target. And if it's not out, they don't have access to it for a specific thing. But you just have to figure that out. You know, the first time I worked with someone that whose dog didn't want the other dogs coming up when she was sitting down for attention. I had a whole set up with like a baby gate and like a red cone and if one dog went to the red cone, the other dog put his head down. You could touch that. I mean, you know you have to set up. I like to use visual stations, right? See. So you know, this dog is going to be here this dog is going to be doing that. And I like to have gates and whatever management management's fun it's like part of the soul. How you can be creative.

Michael Shikashio: 49:47

Yeah, and that's the fun of training the art of training right is setting the environment is

Unknown: 49:51

that is the art and that's also the scary part because I can tell you something on a podcast, but people can't see like with their Our individual dog, maybe I would say this and try that. And, you know, so it's like you have to take this and then you have to figure out how this is going to work for your situation. How are you going to set this up?

Michael Shikashio: 50:12

Yeah, totally, totally. So I want to pick your brain about what you have going on for something that's exciting you now some of these new concepts and maybe give us a sneak peek at something. I know you're brainstorming some new games, or maybe you have something that you're excited about that you're seeing happening in the dog training community, and putting you on the spot because I know we didn't talk about this at all.

Unknown: 50:40

I mean, frankly, right now I have ducklings. And I'm looking at ducklings, not the dog training community. No, I do like looking at, you know, working with other species and looking at what's happening with other things going on. And also like with kids, as far as the dog stuff, goes, I'm still just really focused on how to make counterconditioning as voluntary as possible and different in different ways we can set that up, the latte stuff is still pretty new, we've been using it at shelters, it's been excellent using it for some socialization that the dogs not sure about a new person, or, or whatever. And so we're having a person kind of shadow, the main handler, so the dog looks up, put treats at their station goes to the next one, you know. And then the other volunteer, the dog isn't sure about yet is just kind of walking around with them. And then at some point, they switch places. And so it's a way to let dogs that don't have any prior training or relationship, kind of start building a relationship, you know, an operant, one where they're starting to look at the person and getting more confident that they can communicate with the different volunteers. And that's going to make them go somewhere else and they get socialized. During it, you can add talking and touching into once you have the general pattern going,

Michael Shikashio: 52:00

Yeah, it's exciting to see just how much that concept or it's not a new concept, but just recognizing giving the dogs much more choice and agency in their environment, and to be able to make those choices operate. Because the old it's a complete shift from the old way of training shift, you know, instead of stopped doing this or do this or do that it's more like, I'm going to reinforce you for what I like, and I'm seeing it give you many more choices. So you're not feeling restricted in making those trades, obviously, done safely for our aggression cases,

Unknown: 52:28

obviously done safely. And you know what I'm gonna say the opposite side of that coin, which is that we can't be extreme about anything. Or at least I can't, okay, I don't recommend it. So you don't want to be like, everything is choice for all dogs all the time because some dogs don't. That's not what they're gonna do well, with. All right, it's if you have some, some underlying pathology, some neurochemical stuff, you know, anxiety disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, you can't be like, I'm gonna let you choose to engage in this behavior or not, because the dog might actually need medication before they can even make make a choice. If it's not, you know, so you can't assume all dogs are on that page. You know, there's some dogs that need behavioral medicine to be on that page. You know, there's some dogs that are having anxiety disorder and being like, now you have all the freedom, they don't want it. Because they need to be told, like, they need a script that is feel safe. And now in this situation, you're going to do this. And so really need to just keep going back to the case you have in front of you.

Michael Shikashio: 53:41

The really salient point and a very important one. Yeah, we don't want to, you know, this whole this whole choice part of thing is, it's important, but you make a very good point about not just letting all dogs just go at it. And just there you go, you know, operate on your input. That's

Unknown: 53:57

not what we're talking about. Yeah,

Michael Shikashio: 53:58

yeah. Yeah. So what are you up to next? And where can people find you?

Unknown: 54:04

So a lot of my time these days is with my mentorship group, I certify people to be well, they're already working trainers. So I'm not certifying them to be trainers. I'm certifying trainers to be controlling least trainers. Yeah, I mean, I'm working a lot with my mentorship group. Just have have a few firsts have my first guy in South Korea. He just finished and wow, just different, you know, different countries is pretty cool.

Michael Shikashio: 54:32

It's very like that. Yeah, it's very cool to see the ripples that you're

Unknown: 54:36

actually he's coming in New York for some other reason. And he's going to drive down visit me. Wow. So I'm, I'm really psyched about that.

Michael Shikashio: 54:44

That's amazing. That's amazing. And don't forget about the Friends of control and leash Facebook group. Yes,

Unknown: 54:50

that's for anybody. Hopefully, you guys have at least like one of the books or have watched the conference recordings which you can get on my pub Was yours which is clean run, or something so that you're not going in there, just totally cold. But even if you are, we're there I force the people in my mentorship program to show up and occasionally answer questions. You know, it's a community. So you know, we're there to discuss things. But it's, it's always helpful if you have heard some of the material first suit, because it's like 1000s of people in there and someone shows up and it's like what's, look at that or something, it'll get explains, but it's a lot easier if you have been exposed to it in some way. And then you can have more questions about your particular case or whatever.

Michael Shikashio: 55:39

Excellent. Excellent. Leslie, thank you so much. I appreciate your wisdom and insight as always, and I appreciate you coming on the show.

Unknown: 55:47

Thank you. It's always good to talk to you. My mind is going with this this that in that

Michael Shikashio: 55:58

I hope you enjoyed this amazing conversation with the always creative Lesley McDevitt. If you liked the show, please don't forget to subscribe, share and give a rating and hop on over to aggressive dog.com For more information about helping dogs with aggression. From the aggression in dogs master course to webinars from world renowned experts, and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. But what if you're looking at some of the more breed specific fantasies like a maybe a Belgian Malinois that's how dare you to Denton