Hey friends. Thanks for joining me for this episode of fresh bytes where we chat with rising stars in our community, and hear new ideas and concepts to working with aggression in dogs. I have the pleasure of having a great conversation with pine Irwin, in this episode about determining outcomes in aggression cases, and realistic expectations formed through using objective measures. Because let's face it, there's a lot of emotion swirling around with all the humans involved in an aggression case, including the dogs, guardians, trainers, veterinarians, rescue or shelter teams and everyone else that might be involved in the case. So decisions can often be difficult to make and filled with subjectivity. I think you'll get some nice takeaways from this episode with pine. And if you are working with aggression cases or plan on taking aggression cases as a trainer, or maybe even struggling with your own dog, we have a variety of educational opportunities for you, including the upcoming aggression in dogs conference happening from September 30 Through October 2 2022 in Providence, Rhode Island with both in person and online options. You can also learn more about the aggression in dogs master course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues by going to aggressive dog.com. Hey guys, I've got a real special guest this week, where we're gonna unpack the notion that you can save all dogs regardless of their behavior. So let me tell you a little bit about pine Irwin, who is a certified dog trainer and behavior specialists based in Idaho. He comes from a long line of animal lovers with a grandfather who was a veterinarian, and having been raised on a horse farm. Pine took an early interest in working with animals through horses and then the family German Shepherd. After he found a book on making dog agility equipment in the public library. He became interested in behavior when 14 years ago he adopted an Aussie with serious aggression issues that led him to understanding behavior, drive and motivators in a way he had never thought of before. He has since engaged in experimenting with applying force free training techniques to feral Mustangs, amorous ducks bent on engaging in aggressive displays of romance with human caretakers, and the more than occasional semi feral dog caught in a live trap after being dumped in wilderness locations. Pine specializes in dealing with aggression, and the weird stuff that pops up in working with animals. Pine is the head of the behavior department and dog and of a rescue organization that deals with abandoned and neglected animals in southern Idaho. He works as a consultant with the HS us local rescue organizations and colleagues who are foolish enough to give 100 fettered access to his Facebook and cell phone. So welcome, pine, I'm really excited to be getting into this conversation with you.
Unknown:So my, I'm really excited to be here. This is this is pretty awesome. For me, from my perspective, I think we all kind of, you know, look to you, in particular Mike as as a sort of bastion of aggression, behavior stuff. So it's really exciting to be here.
Michael Shikashio:I really, really appreciate that. And I think one of the things that we can share in this conversation is we're both coming from the perspective or lens of training and behavior consulting, but we also have backgrounds in rescue and the weird cases, I was just mentioning. So there's a lot I'm sure we can talk about. But let's get into that, that that initial notion, you know, all dogs can be saved, save the mall. There's no kill movement as well. And all of those notions in this sort of black and white decision making process that's crept into our into how we look at dogs and how we might work with dogs and make decisions on the ultimate outcome. And especially in aggression cases, I'm sure you're seeing the same thing is that it is not black and white, there's so many variables to consider when we are looking at the outcome or decisions that can be made for a dog and their future. So perhaps we can jump right into the prognosis and aggression cases and the variables we might look at. So what are your thoughts there and the types of components or variables, you might look at an aggression case?
Unknown:First and foremost, I kind of look at the dog's living environment. I look at what is available in terms of management strategies when you're dealing with the dog with aggression issues that is like paramount, right? It's the management of the behavior while we're attempting to implement some kind of plan to help curb that behavior or change that behavior and that emotion that's driving it. So that's like my first first thing is if I'm dealing with a dog who's got serious aggression issues towards small children, and he lives in a house with 10 children under the age of 10, or something like that, that's going to change how I feel about his prognosis versus a dog with small children issue aggressive issues in a house where there might be a small kid once in a while a grandkid visiting you know there's there's a big difference in between those two manage ment strategies, beyond management and things in their living environment. I look at the dogs you know, the are the guardians I guess is how I would like to say it. I tried to say it now, is this idea of are these the kind of people who have the mental bandwidth and the resources to put forth all the effort that is going to be required to fix, quote, unquote, this individual case? Or are these the kinds of people who are looking for a quick answer, they want me to do something now solve the problem, and not you know, and not have to worry about it down the road, you know, and those are two different types of Guardians. And the prognosis for the dogs in those environments is going to be radically different. If they're not the type to put forth the effort, then you're wasting your money, having me come in, because nothing I tell you is going to fix the problem overnight. It just doesn't work that way.
Michael Shikashio:So what about risk assessment, you also consider that in the overall outlook, bite history, size of dog, you know, what the dog has done, where the dog is biting all those variables
Unknown:I do. And I take a pretty detailed case history. And then I do a detail console, before I start any kind of training, there's like an hour, hour and a half period where I just sit down with the owners and like, we go over everything that I can possibly think of, you know, not all bite histories are created equal a dog who bits someone with a level one bite versus a level three bite, there's obviously a very different, you know, level of aggression in that behavior. But there's also variables within that I know a dog who has a level three bite, and she's the sweetest, most wonderful dog. Now, she's amazing, you would never know that that had happened in her past. But the situation that led up to that experience, basically primed the pump and steered her right towards it. Whereas I've met dogs with only Level One Bites, where I was just like, Oh, you're going to be a problem. You know, like, because they have never gone to that level of aggression, where they've broken skin and required medical intervention. But they're a lot more committed to that action of violence than the dog with the level three bite. So the variables are basically everything when you're working in aggression cases. And I always feel a little bit bad when people contact me, and they want to start training right away. And I'm like, yeah, no, we got to just sit and have a conversation first. Because I need to know walking in, if I'm walking into a situation where there's a good prognosis, or I'm walking into a situation where you know, it's very likely I'm going to get hurt. I like to know those things in advance. So I typically try to try to assess as many of the variables as I can, of course, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean I won't walk into a situation be completely blindsided, but I try not to.
Michael Shikashio:So you work with a lot of rescues, or certainly different organizations that are adopting out animals and making these decisions on what's safe and what's not. So what happens when you're running into this, you know, so you've got to let's maybe we'll use an example of a case, a dog that has a bite history level three bite history, so you know, puncture wounds, about half the length of the canine tooth, so not very serious damaging bites, but enough of concern. And just let's say it's a large, larger ish, dog, two year old or something like that, and, and you've got a rescue that's, that's working with this dog, and they reach out to you for assistance, maybe on behavioral change strategies and things like that. And they asked you, hey, pine, you know, what do you think about the outcome here? Or they have the mindset that oh, we're going to totally be able to adopt this dog out. So let's let's get this dog rehabbed or fixed big air quotes up there. And we want you to fix this dog and so that way we can adopt it out safely. So what are your What are your thoughts? Or how do you navigate that conversation?
Unknown:With the rescue I work with the most that I'm you know, kind of on staff and on board for I will straight up just tell the director what I think I'm pretty blunt with her, and I'll just be like, yeah, no, this is not going to happen. The reality of the situation is not good. When it's an organization I'm not as familiar with, I tried to be pretty honest, without being super mean about it, I guess. It's not my job. I never tell a client like I think you should euthanize this dog. I never recommend a client rehome a dog. I firmly entrenched in this philosophy of if you're in I'm in. So if you want to fight the good fight, I will fight it alongside of you. I don't care how long it takes. I don't care how difficult it is. I don't care how many times I have to go to a Michael Shikashio Dog aggression conference to try to learn more I don't care I'm in if you're in. Obviously, you know, that does require a little bit of monetary compensation for that. But you know, I won't ever recommend to a client like this is a no go situation. This is not going to work. I will just keep trying. With a rescue. I feel it's a little bit different because they're not the ones who are going to own the dog. Right. Ultimately, someone else is going to own the dog. So I would look at the dog with the level three bite history and I would look at the incident in which that happened. If it's been multiple incidents, I feel a little more strongly about trying to be like, probably, maybe not if it's A single incident, you know, I feel like reading up to that situation. So in the situation that I think of with that level three bite, it had involved children, and it involved children being kind of mean to the dog to start with. And so the recommendation is, is that this dog just does not go to a home with small children, period, no one under the age of 10, or 12, actually, I think is where we cut it off with her. You know, if there's anyone in and out of the house on a frequent and consistent basis is under the age of 12. It's just not a go situation for adoption, because it's not worth the risk, right? You know, and another rescue, I might not be as straightforward, but I would write my assessment. And basically, it would say like, these are the recommendations for the home that you're looking for. And if I truly feel very strongly that this dog is not adoptable, my list of recommendations for the home you're looking for is going to get super specific. Just as a means of like, no, really, all of these boxes need to be checked before you can even consider it. Is this really something you want to go forward with? Is this dog really malleable enough or to be placed into a modern home environment? If what you're looking for is some weird guy living in the middle of the woods in a shack? Who never has any company? You know, what are the odds that that guy is looking for this dog, you know, and doesn't have any other dogs or any other animals? Or anyone ever come and visit? You know? And is that someone you actually want to interact with? Because that might be interesting, too. So it's those kinds of environments. So I try really hard not to be the person who rolls up into the situation and says, Yeah, we shouldn't do this, this is a no go. With the rescue that I work with all the time, I will flat out just tell them like No, we should not we do not want to invite this into our our fold, but that I feel a personal responsibility as someone who's a part of that organization to kind of protect our volunteers and protect our adopters and protect our fosters, you know, from this environment. It's tough.
Michael Shikashio:Yeah, so it sounds like a lot, especially has to deal with the relationship. And to do with the relationship you have with that rescue or shelter and how much they trust your what you're saying to them. But you made an important distinction, as well as the difference between an owned dog so dog that's already been adopted or living with a family versus a dog that is in we'll call it the custody or the ownership of the rescue or shelter. It's a different kind of situation. And the variables when assessing prognosis are much different because of that risk. But the interesting thing for me is that the some rescues and shelters that I've worked with, are more apt to have less risk, or I should say they are more risk tolerant. In other words, they're more likely to say, Okay, this dog is not owned by anybody, let's find that home, to see if we can give this dog a chance. And it's, it's a struggle, right, because they're looking to find homes for the dogs, obviously, and also balance that need for safety and the risk part of it. And so it might be, in a sense, different in terms of the overall decision making process for the dogs future, because then they don't have to live with that animal. They've given it to somebody else to live with and make those decisions. So what are your thoughts there?
Unknown:I feel like I feel like for the most part, barring really unethical rescues that are out there, and there are some a few for the most part rescues aren't looking at somebody just passing the problem on as they're trying desperately to help animals. I think their hearts are usually in the right place. They just don't always think their brains are a part of that I don't, I feel like my job when I sign off on whether or not this dog is adoptable is to ensure that, you know, barring extreme circumstances dog is pretty safe, you know, as safe as a dog can be. I don't feel like it's okay to pass that buck. If I don't think that dog is safe. You know, it's one thing, we had a dog with us for like a year and a half who was extremely dog aggressive, and straight up homicidal with small animals. And I was just like, like, this is gonna be a tough one. But we found them a place eventually. And that was amazing. And he's doing well and he's thriving. I got him to a point where he no longer wanted to objectively, you know, commit crimes against animals when he was walking down the street. And that made it to the point where we just had to wait. But there are other dogs that come through where I'm just like, like, realistically the prognosis here is is not good. I think like I said, I think rescues are have their hearts in the right place. And our brains just aren't thinking about it. And it's a liability, right? If we if we adopt out a dog and he maimed someone, or kills another animal or something like that. Guess who they're going to blame? They're not going to go you know, well, the owner didn't follow the protocol that we put in place which was absolutely do not introduce them to any small children or small dogs or small animals. They're going to be like, Well, why did they Rescue, adopt out this aggressive quote unquote aggressive dog. And then the flip side of that is, of course on social media, you have all those cases where rescues do euthanize dogs for serious aggression behaviors. And everyone crucifies them well, why didn't you find this? Why didn't you do that? Why didn't you do this. And it's just not that easy to find someone, you know, a year and a half or a dog to basically sit in holding, we couldn't even place him in a foster home because of course, all of our fosters have other animals. He's sweet as can be with humans, which was a saving grace. But it was just like, the people who are qualified to deal with dogs with serious aggression issues, warehouses are full, I'm sure your house is full. It just doesn't exist.
Michael Shikashio:Yeah. And I do want to empathize with the rescues in the shelters that are out there in the world trying to do the best they can, because that's really what it is, nobody's getting into this because they want to do the opposite. They're getting into help the dogs, and it can be very difficult decisions. And one of the conundrums is when there's this sort of viewpoint of behavior, where we can turn it on and off, like a light switch, sort of like we're going to, I'm gonna say, hey, pine, I've got this dog, take the dog foster for three weeks and fix it almost like we're going to, it's like a dislocated joint. So we can just pop back into place, and life's gonna go on and on as normal in most cases, and unfortunately, that's the misunderstanding of behavior sometimes. And so as I think, as I was going along in the rescue world, and learning more about dogs, fostering dogs with aggression issues, that first had the same mindset, I said, Yeah, we can absolutely fix all these dogs. And, you know, I've watched a few episodes of the dog whisperer and apply some training strategies I learned on that show. And next thing, you know, the harsh reality comes slapping you in the face of like saying, Okay, this is not how behavior works. And so you were talking, before we jumped on this recording, you were talking about, you know, the healthy side of a dog or health when we're talking about just health in general, and how we don't often think about behavior as part of that health picture. So can you expand more on that?
Unknown:Yeah. It's a really, I think it's so cultural thing. And I think it transcends dogs, we do that with humans, too, we assume because the body is healthy, that this animal is healthy. And the reality is, is the mind is a part of the body and when the mind is not healthy. And it's devolved into developing maladaptive behaviors and things like that. It's we're not dealing with a healthy animal anymore. We don't necessarily I have PTSD is full disclosure, and ADHD, which is a potent combination. My brain, I'm the first person to make the joke that my brain is broken, and my brain is not is not optional. It's not like I have, I have very serious problems that I have to deal with on a consistent basis on a daily basis. I went to therapy for like 900 years, I should probably still be in therapy, like, let's be real, I think everybody should mostly, but my brain is not healthy. It has maladaptive coping mechanisms that I have had to work very hard at and still have to work very hard at to manage and recognize and address as they come up. Dogs are much the same way. Animals are much the same way when the mind is unhealthy. And we have at least in the modern end of dog training, really gotten comfortable saying like, Yeah, you should maybe see a vet behaviorist about that. Have you thought about meds. But I think a lot of dog training is still really far behind that. And a lot of clients are still really resistant to that. And I think that's probably reflective of how we treat people who take mental health medication. You know, they they're like, Well, I don't want my dog and to be a zombie. I don't want my dog to be this. And I'm like, Well, currently, your dog is an anxious mess. He was attempting to kill your neighbor every single day is a zombie that much worse than the current situation he's living in. And I think of it from the animals perspective, that that's not a healthy brain. And that's not a healthy mindset to constantly be anxious about everything, every noise that goes off, every movement outside the window, sets this dog into a tailspin of aggressive behavior that redirects on to other animals or other people or whatever. I'm like, that's not healthy. Like, yeah, that dog's body might be perfectly healthy. You know, he doesn't have any obvious underlying signs of medical issues, but he's not healthy. You know, his mind is not healthy and anybody who's existed in any sort of state of stress for a prolonged period of time can tell you that it's it's not a healthy way to live and it definitely has a physical impact at some point. I'm assuming it would with dogs do haven't read a study on it, but it's probably out there coming somewhere. Hopefully.
Michael Shikashio:So you're you have a very unique perspective and and a very understanding one because what you're going through or have you been through is going to give you a much senior to the dog's eyes is what I'm kind of Yeah, the words I'm looking for. So have you taken that aspect and use it in a way to commute indicate to clients with so they can better understand or do you have like a certain analogy you use with clients that if their dog is experiencing, you know, things that you're seeing as beyond just, you know, normal, aggressive response to a threatening stimulus, for instance?
Unknown:Yeah, they're usually the first one I default to is I'm like, when you have a really bad, stressful day, you come home and crack open a bottle of wine, what is your dog get to do? You know, and not usually sets a light bulb, like starts to turn the light on, where they're like, oh, you know, like, my dog doesn't have the option to pour himself a bottle of wine or a bottle, a glass of wine, to decompress and deal with his stress, right? Like, he's, he's doesn't have that option. And it was like, you know, you have, you have a stressful day at work, you get to go out with your friends and go to the bar and have a nice meal or whatever, to decompress, and vent. And, you know, and do all those things that we do as coping mechanisms for our stress, some people exercise, some people, you know, take up knitting, or whatever it is, but your dog, what does your dog get to do when they're overwhelmed by their emotions and their feelings and their circumstance. And it's interesting, because people are almost always willing to attribute dogs to having positive emotions, right? Oh, my dog loves me, my dog loves this, my dog is happy when we do this X, Y, and Z. But they're really reluctant to give them that same grace towards what we would consider negative emotions, like fear, dislike, you know, anger and those kinds of things. And we attribute those things to some sort of, like, personal grudge from the dog. And it's bizarre how that happens. Because it's not it's, you know, if if an animal can feel joy and happiness and love, then by extension, they can feel the opposite of those things, right? It's just like, that's how brains work. If you can get one you can get the other. And it's weird that we're not willing to attribute those things, we tend to take those things personally, right? Like, well, my dog's just being this, he's being dominant. He's being spiteful, he's being all these other, and he's just a jerk. He's just all these other things. And I'm like, your dog is dealing with some pretty intense emotions. We do it with children, you see it with kids do people like my kids acting out, he's just being a jerk? You know, the therapist walks in and goes, yeah, so your kid's got some, like pretty serious anxiety here. You know, and it's manifesting, or it has, or, you know, he or she has ADHD, and it's manifesting is like, anger and aggression and things like that, which is what happened with me as a kid. My ADHD was on undiagnosed. I wasn't properly treated, and I didn't get the proper therapies and things like that the training, quote, unquote, that I needed to help manage that. And so I had been labeled, you know, combative, and difficult. I wasn't either of those things, I was dealing with some stuff, and nobody was helped no adults were helping me. And so as owners and guardians, you're the adult in the situation. And you need to roll up into that situation and attribute that your dog's feelings are both a legitimate and be, you know, need help with their small children in that element, you know, they've got the cognitive capacity of the average two to three year old, you can't just roll up in there and tell them to stop feeling that way. Don't do that. It's embarrassing, it's difficult, it makes my life hard, you have to address that as the emotion that it is and treat it as the emotion that it is instead of just attributing it to whatever,
Michael Shikashio:you bring up so many great points there. And especially again, from your unique perspective and being able to see it through that lens. And so we're gonna take a quick break here and not grab a glass of wine or a full bottle, but we're going to take a short break, and we'll be back to talk more about the labels that you were just mentioning, and how quick we are to label dogs in some cases. So we'll be back in just a moment after a word from our sponsor. Hey, friends, it's me again, and I hope you are enjoying this episode, you may have figured out that something I deeply care about is helping dogs with aggression issues live less stressful, less confined, more enriched, and overall happy lives with their guardians. Aggression is so often misunderstood, and we can change that through continued education, like we received from so many of the wonderful guests on this podcast. In addition to the podcast, I have two other opportunities for anyone looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, which include the aggression in dogs master course, and the aggression in dogs conference. If you want to learn more about the most comprehensive course on aggression taught anywhere in the world, head on over to aggressive dog.com and click on the dog pros tab, and then the master course. The course gives you access to 23 modules on everything from assessment, to safety, to medical issues to the behavior change plans we often use in a number of different cases, including lessons taught by Dr. Chris pockle. Kim Brophy and Jessica Dolce. You also receive access to a private Facebook group with over 1000 of your fellow colleagues, and dog pros all working with aggression cases. After you finish the course. You also gain access Is to private live group mentor sessions with me, where we practice working through a variety of cases together. And if you need to use we've got you covered. We are approved for just about every major training and behavior credential out there. This is truly the flagship course offered on aggression in dogs, and is perfect for pet pros that want to set themselves apart and take their knowledge and expertise to the next level, or even for pet owners who are seeking information to help their own dog. And don't forget to join me for the third annual aggression in dogs conference, either in person or online from Providence, Rhode Island on September 30 Through October 2 2022. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you might have heard on the podcast, including Suzanne Cole the air, Jen Shryock, Simone Mueller, Dr. Amber Batson Kim Brophy, Karissa miroir, Laura monocle. tirelli, Dr. Simone Gadbois, and many more, head on over to aggressive dog.com and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and leash reactivity to using positive reinforcement to work with predatory behavior. And if you like to show up your support of the podcast this year, we teamed up again with the folks over at Wolf culture for some catchy limited run conference merchandise. Wolf culture is known for their witty, nerdy and no nonsense apparel that was created in 2019. To spread more awareness towards the use of humane training methods, their apparel is here to help you start conversations, advocate for your animals and rep force retraining in a different way. So don't forget to get your conference gear, it leaves the site after 1231 2022. If you want 10% off your order, use the code bitey 10. At checkout that's bi t y one zero. All right. Welcome back, everybody back here with pine Ervin. And now we're going to talk about some of the labels that we use with aggression and reactivity. And sometimes we're quick to jump to certain labels. And the point you were making just before we took a break is so salient. Because oftentimes, we can do that with people too, right? We're quick to label somebody into a certain category of behavior or, you know, giving them some sort of personality trait with just some blanket statement that could really have a profound impact in how we're working on the behavior changes strategy, or how we even might understand it. So, you know, aggressive is certainly a common label, we might be quick to give dogs. But you actually tend to try to avoid that when possible. Is that correct?
Unknown:Yeah, I don't like labeling dogs aggressive. I'm not saying there are no aggressive dogs out there, I have met maybe three, I've been doing this for about 10 years, and I've met three dogs, that I would be like, Yeah, he'd mess you up just for the heck of it. Just because it was Tuesday, and it might be fun. One of which was my Aussie actually. But for the most part, when dealing with dogs with aggressive behavior, I try to couch it as aggressive behavior, it is behavior that is serving some kind of function for the dog. Typically, that function is Get away from me, right 99% Of Aggression cases are dealing with a dog who really genuinely dislike something, either because it's a fear response, or it's just really uncomfortable and unpleasant and other ways for them. That that's where the aggression comes from. It comes from this function of behavior. So I don't like to label dogs aggressive. I label dogs with aggressive behavior, aggressive behavior towards x, whatever it is, I feel like words are important and how we frame things in both the way we speak. And the way we diagnose and the way we treat is really important in terms of keeping that perspective of empathy. Something I like to tell clients is that behavior is not personal. Your dog does not try to eat the mailman because he personally hates the mailman, or because he's trying to embarrass you or because he's trying to make your life difficult. He tries to eat the mailman because he's incredibly uncomfortable with the strange dude with large packages, rolling up to your front of your house and dropping stuff and then leaving. He just doesn't like that. He's very uncomfortable. He's very nervous about it. And so he's dealt with it by behaving very aggressively if the window or the door. From his perspective, it works, right, the guy never breaks in, he just leaves his stuff and runs away. So I don't like to label dogs or any animal as aggressive. I like to label behavior. I see aggressive behavior, I see fearful behavior I see over aroused behavior and things like that, you know, your dog is not evil. He's not mean he's not aggressive towards these things. By and large. Like I said, there are exceptions to the rule. But he is you know, experiencing a great deal of an overload of an emotional response that is triggering aggressive behavior. It's not personal. It doesn't have anything to do with you as a guardian. It's everything to do with them and their emotional response to whatever triggered it.
Michael Shikashio:Yeah, again, going back to your childhood, you know, it's there's so many parallels and what you were just talking about through your own experiences and how you're able to, again, communicate that to owners, or to your clients in a certain way must be extremely helpful for conveying that points. Because as a child, we could be labeled something like that child's being stubborn or disobedient or willful, or spiteful. And all of these things that we might apply to dogs in the same way, but nobody's, you know, asking, what's the motivation for that? What's the underlying emotion? What's the function of that behavior? Why is that person or dog displaying this undesirable behavior that we're observing Cassandra is able to the person that observing it, or experiencing it? And, and nobody's asking that question a lot of times, so. And I really appreciate that you're sharing that that perspective in, you know, something that many of us may not experience or have the same unique outlook on so well, if
Unknown:it's the, if the dog is stubborn, if the dog is willful, if the child is stubborn, if the child is willful, and etc, it takes all responsibility away, for us to deal with it, right? It's their problem, they should just get over it and get beyond it and stop doing this. And, you know, best case scenario, we ignore them. And we ignore those needs and let them escalate. Worst case scenario, they start dealing with it in equally aggressive fashions that of course, escalate the scenario even faster. It just takes away a responsibility if we label the, the animal or the kid or whatever as their the problem, instead of their emotional response to a trigger is causing all of these problems, and we should deal with that emotional response. And that'll, by default, erase all these behaviors that we don't like, right, because they won't feel the need to escalate to those levels.
Michael Shikashio:So I want to switch gears here a little bit now, because you and I were chatting again before the show and talking about sort of the weird cases, you know, you and I both enjoy getting cases referred to us or that have like a real unique aspect or something that you don't normally see. Especially for me, I love the aggression cases in which it's this some strange behavior going on, you know, example is like generalized guarding it could be somebody just, you know, learning, leaning to reach down to grab something they just dropped and the dog thinks, oh, no, they're about to take a resource away from me. So it's generalized to basically anything that person does any movements towards the floor or anything like that. It's you know, it's going to trigger that aggressive response in the dog. So cases like that, can you think of something off the top of your mind that that you've experienced lately? Or maybe in the past? That's sort of in that weird, you know, air quotes?
Unknown:Well, I think he's, the duck was probably my most like, recent, like it was last year. And weirdest case, because it was, it was weird and delightful. I love weird. I think of it as a puzzle that I get to solve. I get to sit down and look at all the pieces and gather as many pieces and elements and variables as I can and then solve the puzzle, right? How do we get this to a situation that is livable? So the duck was a Muscovy duck, which is actually not a duck. It's a duck, adjacent species, so they're kind of like donkeys are two horses, I guess. She didn't know until I started researching Muscovy ducks. I got a call at like, eight o'clock in the morning from the rescue, they have a ton of ducks that had been abandoned. And so they've taken them in, you know, because they're not equipped to survive and quote, unquote, wild. And this duck was aggressively attacking one of the gals who works there. While she was out trying to tent all of these creatures, ducks, chickens, turkeys rabbits. There was a pig briefly. And so it was I was like, What do you mean attacking and he was literally running up behind her and biting her at the back of her knees, and like humping her leg, for lack of a better description. But he's not a small duck. He was quite large in terms of duck size. And the Muscovy actually has a point on their beak that allows them to grab things and hold on. And he was doing damage even through her clothes and through her like jeans and stuff. He was like actually putting bruises and breaking skin a little bit. So I got a call from the director and, and she was like, Can you fix a duck? And I was like, I don't know. Let's go find out. So I did some research really quick on things that ducks really liked and Muscovy ducks in particular. And I rolled up there and just went to work. It was early spring. So it was right around this time, and it was basically and a reaction to he was in love. He was in love with the girl at like madly in love with her and ducks as most people who have any sort of experience with them know that their romantic affections are quite aggressive. So it's a really nice way to put it. It's downright, it's physical assault, it's really not great. And so he was just like, he was really adamant that he was going to be like he was they were going to have babies is what he was adamant about, which obviously, is problematic. So we went to work. And we figured out that he wasn't, he was so overwhelmed by his hormones, that we couldn't really convince him to take any sort of reliable reward, except that he was a duck we'd been hand raised clearly. And he was super into human interaction, he'd imprinted on people and he was really into human interaction. So basically, we made it contingent, the reward was as the humans will interact with you, they will engage with you, if you can control yourself. If you're not controlling yourself, then you you don't get to have any, we will ignore you, there were some defensive handling stuff that we did, we put some extra thick ski pants on the gal that he was romantically involved with. I have a pair of like cowboy boots that I tend to wear anytime I'm dealing with an animal that likes to bite and use their teeth, because they're pretty hard to get through. So I can usually defend myself by sticking a toe in their mouth, if I need to. Hopefully, I never I rarely have to, but every once in a while I'm like, on the defensive about it. But so it was we just spent the whole we spent the whole morning doing that I was there until like three o'clock in the afternoon, I think working on it. And by the end of it, he was pretty well controlled. But what we also did is we called the vet, the local avian vet, and we asked about what we could do about like, is there a way to neuter a duck to remove that hormones because I was like, Look, we can fix it right now. But I think next spring, we're going to be right back here. You know, as soon as those hormones go, we're gonna be right back here. And so we worked on it. We talked to the vet turns out there's an implant you can get where you can basically you inject it into the dock and it it stops puberty, it's halted their hormones and you can do it for chickens to like roosters, that crow if you've got them in like an urban environment where the neighbors are complaining, apparently you can give it to them too. And they won't Crow was really cool thing to discover. So we had the vet special order it, we gave him the injection never had a problem this spring, I did not get a he was adopted. I did not get a call this spring that he had decided to, you know, amorously aggress on to his adopters, who he's very fond of. And he likes them. They constantly tell us that he's very doglike. You know, he comes when he's called and he's you know, and it was really interesting. It was a fascinating case because I was just I rolled up into it like, I guess we'll see what happens which is about how I approach most things. I would love to tell you that I'm this wonderful scientist who like keeps detailed records and does all this like you know, strictly scientific by the book stuff. But the reality is, is oftentimes when I get a call I just go yeah, let's see if we can. We'll try. That's an
Michael Shikashio:awesome story. And I think I just learned more about ducks than I've ever known in my entire life.
Unknown:It was great to learn like I have no use for this knowledge at this point but I know a lot about ducks now.
Michael Shikashio:The question is if they make a duck sized break stick for the button hold
Unknown:i don't know i was using a broom. I just used a broom to like peel him off of the GAO when he would when he would make a mistake. It was a lot of learning on the fly about like duck behavior to about like what he would do before he would escalate to full on like trying to jump on her but I did I learned a heck of a lot about ducks that I have no use for unless you've got a duck someone out there who's having a problem give me a call because it was fun.
Michael Shikashio:All right duck behavior consultants in your future. So pine, tell us what you're up to and where people can find you. I'm
Unknown:currently I am working like a dog No pun intended. Like most of us. I'm located in Idaho and based in Idaho I do work virtually which is a lot of fun. For me personally, I really enjoy the commute to my office versus in my back room of my house versus driving all over the place but I'll drive if I need to. I did put out a thing on my Facebook page the other day that let everybody know that for the cost of my travel expenses I will go anywhere and do anything not anything but I will work on any case I will give any presentation I will do anything if you just if you cover my travel expenses I like to travel a lot. You can find me online at or when dog training.com It's Irwin within I just like Steve Irwin, but we are not sadly related. At least as far as I know. Or you can find me on Facebook same or when dog training. It's my Facebook is is pretty active. It's really the best way to reach me probably don't call my phone I'm a millennial. We hate that. You can text it if you've got my number, but try not to call me unless it's really important. I'm on Instagram at hiker foond. And that's H i k e r h u n d, my Instagram is normally fairly active and it's a great way to reach me as well. Otherwise I am available virtually anywhere in the world if you want to reach out, not hard to find
Michael Shikashio:Awesome, well, careful what you wish for because I'm going to link to all that stuff in the show notes and people aren't going to be able to find you.
Unknown:So that'll be fun. Send me your weird stuff.
Michael Shikashio:Yes, duck cases going to Pine. There we go. Bye. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on the show. It was great talking to you and I hope to see you again in the future. Thank you. Thanks for joining me in this conversation with pine and all the amazing insight he shared. If you liked the show, please don't forget to subscribe, share and give a rating and hop on over to aggressive dog.com For more information about helping dogs with aggression. From the aggression in dogs master course to webinars from world renowned experts and even in annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs.
Unknown:Put some extra thick ski pants on the gallery he was romantically involved with