{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":2.52,"endTime":5.73,"body":"One of the most atrocious"},{"startTime":2.52,"endTime":5.73,"body":"activities that I can think of"},{"startTime":5.91,"endTime":9.45,"body":"that humans have asked dogs to"},{"startTime":5.91,"endTime":9.45,"body":"take part in is illegal"},{"startTime":9.45,"endTime":13.8,"body":"dogfighting. My special guest"},{"startTime":9.45,"endTime":13.8,"body":"for this episode is Dr. Victoria"},{"startTime":13.8,"endTime":16.68,"body":"cussin, who is the Senior"},{"startTime":13.8,"endTime":16.68,"body":"Director of Applied Behavior"},{"startTime":16.68,"endTime":20.52,"body":"Research for the behavioral"},{"startTime":16.68,"endTime":20.52,"body":"sciences team at the ASPCA."},{"startTime":21.06,"endTime":24.54,"body":"Victoria has incredible insight"},{"startTime":21.06,"endTime":24.54,"body":"into the behavior and welfare of"},{"startTime":24.54,"endTime":29.1,"body":"fight bus dogs. And this episode"},{"startTime":24.54,"endTime":29.1,"body":"is packed with myth busting, and"},{"startTime":29.1,"endTime":32.97,"body":"a unique look at the behavior"},{"startTime":29.1,"endTime":32.97,"body":"and often resiliency of dogs"},{"startTime":33.09,"endTime":37.02,"body":"where the past humans and their"},{"startTime":33.09,"endTime":37.02,"body":"lives have failed them. And if"},{"startTime":37.02,"endTime":39.84,"body":"you are interested in hearing"},{"startTime":37.02,"endTime":39.84,"body":"more about applicable tangible"},{"startTime":39.87,"endTime":43.23,"body":"and immediate steps you can use"},{"startTime":39.87,"endTime":43.23,"body":"with your own dog, or in your"},{"startTime":43.23,"endTime":46.74,"body":"cases, I just launched a"},{"startTime":43.23,"endTime":46.74,"body":"subscription series called Help"},{"startTime":46.74,"endTime":49.89,"body":"for dogs with aggression, which"},{"startTime":46.74,"endTime":49.89,"body":"is an additional format to this"},{"startTime":49.89,"endTime":52.92,"body":"podcast where I walk you through"},{"startTime":49.89,"endTime":52.92,"body":"a variety of aggression issues,"},{"startTime":53.07,"endTime":56.34,"body":"and how to solve them. You'll"},{"startTime":53.07,"endTime":56.34,"body":"find a little subscribe button"},{"startTime":56.37,"endTime":59.73,"body":"on Apple podcast where the by"},{"startTime":56.37,"endTime":59.73,"body":"the end of the dog show is"},{"startTime":59.73,"endTime":63.45,"body":"listed. Your support of the show"},{"startTime":59.73,"endTime":63.45,"body":"is very much appreciated."},{"startTime":66.0,"endTime":69.39,"body":"Everyone welcome back to the"},{"startTime":66.0,"endTime":69.39,"body":"bitey end of the dog this week,"},{"startTime":69.42,"endTime":73.38,"body":"I've got Dr. Victoria cousin,"},{"startTime":69.42,"endTime":73.38,"body":"who is a certified applied"},{"startTime":73.44,"endTime":76.77,"body":"animal behaviorist and serves as"},{"startTime":73.44,"endTime":76.77,"body":"the Senior Director of Applied"},{"startTime":76.77,"endTime":81.33,"body":"Behavior Research for the ASPCA"},{"startTime":76.77,"endTime":81.33,"body":"behavioral sciences team. She"},{"startTime":81.33,"endTime":84.78,"body":"earned her PhD at the University"},{"startTime":81.33,"endTime":84.78,"body":"of California Davis, where she"},{"startTime":84.78,"endTime":88.02,"body":"studied individual differences"},{"startTime":84.78,"endTime":88.02,"body":"in resiliency to stress in"},{"startTime":88.02,"endTime":91.59,"body":"captive animals. She earned her"},{"startTime":88.02,"endTime":91.59,"body":"master's in applied animal"},{"startTime":91.59,"endTime":95.55,"body":"behavior and animal welfare from"},{"startTime":91.59,"endTime":95.55,"body":"the University of Edinburgh,"},{"startTime":95.55,"endTime":98.97,"body":"Scotland, where she completed"},{"startTime":95.55,"endTime":98.97,"body":"her thesis on environmental"},{"startTime":98.97,"endTime":102.39,"body":"enrichment for pet dogs. I'm"},{"startTime":98.97,"endTime":102.39,"body":"really excited to jump into this"},{"startTime":102.39,"endTime":104.61,"body":"episode, because we're going to"},{"startTime":102.39,"endTime":104.61,"body":"be talking about a number of"},{"startTime":104.61,"endTime":108.39,"body":"topics including pitbulls and"},{"startTime":104.61,"endTime":108.39,"body":"fight bus and cruelty cases and"},{"startTime":108.39,"endTime":112.14,"body":"all this wonderful work that"},{"startTime":108.39,"endTime":112.14,"body":"Victoria is doing for the ASPCA."},{"startTime":112.14,"endTime":113.67,"body":"So, welcome to the show."},{"startTime":113.88,"endTime":117.78,"body":"Thank you. I'm very excited to"},{"startTime":113.88,"endTime":117.78,"body":"have this conversation with you."},{"startTime":118.11,"endTime":120.87,"body":"Yeah, I'm excited to because I"},{"startTime":118.11,"endTime":120.87,"body":"know that we're going to be"},{"startTime":120.87,"endTime":124.65,"body":"talking about some potentially"},{"startTime":120.87,"endTime":124.65,"body":"controversial topics, and"},{"startTime":124.77,"endTime":129.21,"body":"certainly topics that can be"},{"startTime":124.77,"endTime":129.21,"body":"bring out heated discussions,"},{"startTime":129.21,"endTime":131.31,"body":"especially in the dog training"},{"startTime":129.21,"endTime":131.31,"body":"world and dog training"},{"startTime":131.31,"endTime":135.15,"body":"community. So tell me about your"},{"startTime":131.31,"endTime":135.15,"body":"work with ASPCA. First, I think"},{"startTime":135.15,"endTime":137.64,"body":"that'll give us a little better"},{"startTime":135.15,"endTime":137.64,"body":"understanding of what you're"},{"startTime":137.64,"endTime":139.2,"body":"seeing and what you're getting"},{"startTime":137.64,"endTime":139.2,"body":"into."},{"startTime":139.71,"endTime":143.88,"body":"Sure. So it's really hard to"},{"startTime":139.71,"endTime":143.88,"body":"summarize this simply because"},{"startTime":143.91,"endTime":147.21,"body":"the team that I'm on the"},{"startTime":143.91,"endTime":147.21,"body":"behavioral sciences team wears"},{"startTime":147.21,"endTime":152.1,"body":"kind of a few different hats. So"},{"startTime":147.21,"endTime":152.1,"body":"a large part of our team"},{"startTime":152.1,"endTime":156.84,"body":"provides internal behavior"},{"startTime":152.1,"endTime":156.84,"body":"liaison services to our various"},{"startTime":156.84,"endTime":160.71,"body":"facilities, around different"},{"startTime":156.84,"endTime":160.71,"body":"parts of the country have for"},{"startTime":160.71,"endTime":164.76,"body":"those behavior teams, right to"},{"startTime":160.71,"endTime":164.76,"body":"just assist them with"},{"startTime":165.0,"endTime":168.57,"body":"implementing and growing their"},{"startTime":165.0,"endTime":168.57,"body":"behavior programs. And then"},{"startTime":168.6,"endTime":173.31,"body":"there is the research component"},{"startTime":168.6,"endTime":173.31,"body":"of the behavioral sciences team,"},{"startTime":173.31,"endTime":177.96,"body":"which I head up with a small"},{"startTime":173.31,"endTime":177.96,"body":"mighty team of two. And we"},{"startTime":177.96,"endTime":183.51,"body":"engage in internally facing"},{"startTime":177.96,"endTime":183.51,"body":"research to come up with ways to"},{"startTime":183.6,"endTime":187.92,"body":"develop data driven behavior"},{"startTime":183.6,"endTime":187.92,"body":"interventions for animals in our"},{"startTime":187.92,"endTime":191.76,"body":"care. And then we also"},{"startTime":187.92,"endTime":191.76,"body":"collaborate with external, other"},{"startTime":191.76,"endTime":196.65,"body":"shelters. So partners to"},{"startTime":191.76,"endTime":196.65,"body":"validate those maybe same"},{"startTime":196.65,"endTime":198.69,"body":"behavior interventions or"},{"startTime":196.65,"endTime":198.69,"body":"different behavioral"},{"startTime":198.78,"endTime":202.65,"body":"interventions working with at"},{"startTime":198.78,"endTime":202.65,"body":"risk populations, mostly of"},{"startTime":202.65,"endTime":206.28,"body":"dogs, um, but we do have cat"},{"startTime":202.65,"endTime":206.28,"body":"work that we support as well."},{"startTime":206.82,"endTime":212.55,"body":"And trying to basically minimize"},{"startTime":206.82,"endTime":212.55,"body":"the euthanasia of adoptable"},{"startTime":212.58,"endTime":216.78,"body":"animals coming out of shelters."},{"startTime":212.58,"endTime":216.78,"body":"And then we also have the"},{"startTime":216.78,"endTime":220.44,"body":"cruelty facing part of our work,"},{"startTime":216.78,"endTime":220.44,"body":"which I think you and I will"},{"startTime":220.44,"endTime":225.69,"body":"talk a lot more about today. And"},{"startTime":220.44,"endTime":225.69,"body":"there we support work that our"},{"startTime":225.69,"endTime":231.12,"body":"national field response team"},{"startTime":225.69,"endTime":231.12,"body":"engages in. So both disaster but"},{"startTime":231.12,"endTime":235.53,"body":"also cruelty cases and a wide"},{"startTime":231.12,"endTime":235.53,"body":"variety, so hoarding puppy mill"},{"startTime":235.53,"endTime":240.18,"body":"cases, but also dogfighting"},{"startTime":235.53,"endTime":240.18,"body":"cases. And so the ASPCA has"},{"startTime":240.18,"endTime":244.68,"body":"teams that investigate and"},{"startTime":240.18,"endTime":244.68,"body":"gather evidence to support law"},{"startTime":244.68,"endTime":250.08,"body":"enforcement in their raids and"},{"startTime":244.68,"endTime":250.08,"body":"busts of some of these really"},{"startTime":250.11,"endTime":254.31,"body":"horrible conditions that animals"},{"startTime":250.11,"endTime":254.31,"body":"are experiencing. And then a"},{"startTime":254.31,"endTime":257.76,"body":"whole wide variety of teams of"},{"startTime":254.31,"endTime":257.76,"body":"which the behavioral sciences"},{"startTime":257.76,"endTime":262.71,"body":"team is part removes animals"},{"startTime":257.76,"endTime":262.71,"body":"from these situations, provides"},{"startTime":262.71,"endTime":266.16,"body":"veterinary exams, forensic"},{"startTime":262.71,"endTime":266.16,"body":"veterinary exams to document"},{"startTime":266.16,"endTime":271.32,"body":"physical cruelty, in certain"},{"startTime":266.16,"endTime":271.32,"body":"cases, provides temporary"},{"startTime":271.32,"endTime":276.03,"body":"shelter while these cases are"},{"startTime":271.32,"endTime":276.03,"body":"pending. Because unfortunately,"},{"startTime":276.03,"endTime":279.09,"body":"you know, these animals are"},{"startTime":276.03,"endTime":279.09,"body":"considered evidence then in"},{"startTime":279.09,"endTime":282.9,"body":"cruelty cases and and so you"},{"startTime":279.09,"endTime":282.9,"body":"have this situation where you"},{"startTime":282.9,"endTime":286.5,"body":"might have long term holds of"},{"startTime":282.9,"endTime":286.5,"body":"animals that you wouldn't"},{"startTime":286.53,"endTime":289.47,"body":"ideally want to have but for"},{"startTime":286.53,"endTime":289.47,"body":"legal reasons, you have to"},{"startTime":289.83,"endTime":294.21,"body":"supporting them physically and"},{"startTime":289.83,"endTime":294.21,"body":"psychologically while they are"},{"startTime":294.21,"endTime":298.17,"body":"being held with legal cases when"},{"startTime":294.21,"endTime":298.17,"body":"their way through the system."},{"startTime":298.71,"endTime":303.18,"body":"And as part of that work So, the"},{"startTime":298.71,"endTime":303.18,"body":"behavioral sciences team, I'll"},{"startTime":303.18,"endTime":308.73,"body":"just abbreviate that BST for"},{"startTime":303.18,"endTime":308.73,"body":"short going forward. So we help"},{"startTime":308.73,"endTime":312.45,"body":"with the removals provide humane"},{"startTime":308.73,"endTime":312.45,"body":"handling support during that"},{"startTime":312.45,"endTime":317.13,"body":"process. And then we also do"},{"startTime":312.45,"endTime":317.13,"body":"behavior, evaluations of the"},{"startTime":317.13,"endTime":322.5,"body":"dogs that are coming in to"},{"startTime":317.13,"endTime":322.5,"body":"assess their fear, aggression,"},{"startTime":322.8,"endTime":326.91,"body":"things of that nature, and"},{"startTime":322.8,"endTime":326.91,"body":"provide that to prosecutors to"},{"startTime":326.91,"endTime":331.8,"body":"also support their their cases."},{"startTime":326.91,"endTime":331.8,"body":"So that's kind of it in a"},{"startTime":331.8,"endTime":333.48,"body":"nutshell. Yeah."},{"startTime":335.25,"endTime":338.07,"body":"Quite a bit of work. And that's,"},{"startTime":335.25,"endTime":338.07,"body":"you know, I want to give a shout"},{"startTime":338.07,"endTime":342.18,"body":"out to the SPCA, what an amazing"},{"startTime":338.07,"endTime":342.18,"body":"work you all are doing. I know"},{"startTime":342.18,"endTime":346.41,"body":"you work with Dr. Pam Reed."},{"startTime":342.18,"endTime":346.41,"body":"Shout out to Pam as well. And it"},{"startTime":346.41,"endTime":350.31,"body":"just it's incredible. Because"},{"startTime":346.41,"endTime":350.31,"body":"what I love about ASPCA is and"},{"startTime":350.31,"endTime":353.46,"body":"the work you're doing is that"},{"startTime":350.31,"endTime":353.46,"body":"you are in the field. So you"},{"startTime":353.46,"endTime":356.31,"body":"have, you know, again, I always"},{"startTime":353.46,"endTime":356.31,"body":"give the story. Some of the best"},{"startTime":356.31,"endTime":360.21,"body":"handlers I've met on the planet"},{"startTime":356.31,"endTime":360.21,"body":"come from the SPCA. So you're"},{"startTime":360.21,"endTime":363.12,"body":"right in the field doing the"},{"startTime":360.21,"endTime":363.12,"body":"work. But you're also backed up"},{"startTime":363.12,"endTime":366.24,"body":"by the rigors of science, and"},{"startTime":363.12,"endTime":366.24,"body":"the background that you have and"},{"startTime":366.24,"endTime":369.45,"body":"all the research you're doing."},{"startTime":366.24,"endTime":369.45,"body":"So it's sort of like this best"},{"startTime":369.45,"endTime":372.57,"body":"of both worlds in terms of"},{"startTime":369.45,"endTime":372.57,"body":"helping the animals and so thank"},{"startTime":372.57,"endTime":375.36,"body":"you for all of the work you're"},{"startTime":372.57,"endTime":375.36,"body":"doing with your team and shout"},{"startTime":375.36,"endTime":378.42,"body":"out to the SPCA as well. And so"},{"startTime":375.36,"endTime":378.42,"body":"let's jump right into the"},{"startTime":378.42,"endTime":381.18,"body":"conversation here. As far as you"},{"startTime":378.42,"endTime":381.18,"body":"know, some of the work in the"},{"startTime":381.18,"endTime":385.11,"body":"fields you're doing because I"},{"startTime":381.18,"endTime":385.11,"body":"know one of the topics that I"},{"startTime":385.11,"endTime":388.89,"body":"get asked a lot about is"},{"startTime":385.11,"endTime":388.89,"body":"pitbulls and since we have"},{"startTime":388.89,"endTime":392.13,"body":"listeners from around the world."},{"startTime":388.89,"endTime":392.13,"body":"Let's first define what a"},{"startTime":392.13,"endTime":395.7,"body":"pitbull is. And you get that"},{"startTime":392.13,"endTime":395.7,"body":"question what is your elevator"},{"startTime":395.7,"endTime":397.32,"body":"pitch for this is a pitbull."},{"startTime":398.01,"endTime":401.91,"body":"I would say that a pitbull is a"},{"startTime":398.01,"endTime":401.91,"body":"category. It's a label that gets"},{"startTime":401.91,"endTime":407.52,"body":"applied to a variety of bullied"},{"startTime":401.91,"endTime":407.52,"body":"type breeds. So a pitbull itself"},{"startTime":407.55,"endTime":410.61,"body":"is not a breed. But you have the"},{"startTime":407.55,"endTime":410.61,"body":"American pitbull terrier, which"},{"startTime":410.61,"endTime":414.57,"body":"is a breed the American"},{"startTime":410.61,"endTime":414.57,"body":"Staffordshire Terrier. And of"},{"startTime":414.57,"endTime":419.19,"body":"course, those breeds are derived"},{"startTime":414.57,"endTime":419.19,"body":"from other breeds that were"},{"startTime":419.19,"endTime":423.78,"body":"developed in England that were"},{"startTime":419.19,"endTime":423.78,"body":"used way back in the day in the"},{"startTime":423.81,"endTime":430.53,"body":"1800s. As butcher dogs, they"},{"startTime":423.81,"endTime":430.53,"body":"were used to hold bowls. And"},{"startTime":430.83,"endTime":435.45,"body":"then over time, they just"},{"startTime":430.83,"endTime":435.45,"body":"started pitting the dogs against"},{"startTime":435.45,"endTime":440.76,"body":"each other and fighting them. So"},{"startTime":435.45,"endTime":440.76,"body":"yeah, you will hear a lot people"},{"startTime":440.76,"endTime":445.26,"body":"saying a pitbull is not a breed."},{"startTime":440.76,"endTime":445.26,"body":"And that is true. But it's a"},{"startTime":445.26,"endTime":449.55,"body":"label that is used in certainly"},{"startTime":445.26,"endTime":449.55,"body":"for the for the dog fighters"},{"startTime":449.55,"endTime":453.87,"body":"that use it in general, they use"},{"startTime":449.55,"endTime":453.87,"body":"several different breeds. But in"},{"startTime":453.87,"endTime":458.01,"body":"general, the American pitbull"},{"startTime":453.87,"endTime":458.01,"body":"terrier is a favorite of the dog"},{"startTime":458.01,"endTime":461.64,"body":"fighters. And you know, the"},{"startTime":458.01,"endTime":461.64,"body":"colloquial term that's applied"},{"startTime":461.64,"endTime":467.4,"body":"to the dogs is Pitbull. And"},{"startTime":461.64,"endTime":467.4,"body":"certainly with those dogs, there"},{"startTime":467.4,"endTime":471.78,"body":"are lineages that are associated"},{"startTime":467.4,"endTime":471.78,"body":"with them and underground"},{"startTime":471.87,"endTime":476.4,"body":"registries and that we can talk"},{"startTime":471.87,"endTime":476.4,"body":"about if you want, but they're"},{"startTime":476.43,"endTime":481.41,"body":"also suspect, right? So. So and"},{"startTime":476.43,"endTime":481.41,"body":"I'm coming at it from a very"},{"startTime":483.3,"endTime":487.5,"body":"from the lens of working on"},{"startTime":483.3,"endTime":487.5,"body":"cruelty cases a lot. So if I get"},{"startTime":487.5,"endTime":492.18,"body":"to dogfighting centric, feel"},{"startTime":487.5,"endTime":492.18,"body":"free to redirect me because of"},{"startTime":492.18,"endTime":495.81,"body":"course, the the label the"},{"startTime":492.18,"endTime":495.81,"body":"overarching umbrella term of"},{"startTime":495.81,"endTime":499.95,"body":"PIPA holds true regardless of,"},{"startTime":495.81,"endTime":499.95,"body":"you know, where the dogs are"},{"startTime":499.95,"endTime":500.61,"body":"coming from."},{"startTime":501.18,"endTime":503.97,"body":"They know I think there's gonna"},{"startTime":501.18,"endTime":503.97,"body":"be no shortage of questions"},{"startTime":503.97,"endTime":507.18,"body":"about this topic. So there's"},{"startTime":503.97,"endTime":507.18,"body":"definitely no need to redirect"},{"startTime":507.18,"endTime":511.02,"body":"at this point. But I think you"},{"startTime":507.18,"endTime":511.02,"body":"know, so now that we've defined"},{"startTime":511.02,"endTime":514.23,"body":"that term for the sake of our"},{"startTime":511.02,"endTime":514.23,"body":"conversation, you kind of were"},{"startTime":514.23,"endTime":518.34,"body":"talking about, you know, working"},{"startTime":514.23,"endTime":518.34,"body":"lines, or maybe, you know, in"},{"startTime":518.34,"endTime":521.31,"body":"the, in the fighting lines, can"},{"startTime":518.34,"endTime":521.31,"body":"you talk more about that? So"},{"startTime":521.31,"endTime":525.03,"body":"we're talking about genetics,"},{"startTime":521.31,"endTime":525.03,"body":"and you know, what the fighters"},{"startTime":525.03,"endTime":530.76,"body":"the dog fighters are selecting"},{"startTime":525.03,"endTime":530.76,"body":"for? So in that regard? You"},{"startTime":530.76,"endTime":533.1,"body":"know, you've heard the saying,"},{"startTime":530.76,"endTime":533.1,"body":"it's all on how you raise them."},{"startTime":533.1,"endTime":536.7,"body":"So let's dispel that myth."},{"startTime":533.1,"endTime":536.7,"body":"First. Talk more about genetics"},{"startTime":536.7,"endTime":537.87,"body":"and your experience there."},{"startTime":538.23,"endTime":545.58,"body":"Yeah. And so I think that, we"},{"startTime":538.23,"endTime":545.58,"body":"think in very binary terms, and"},{"startTime":545.58,"endTime":549.93,"body":"it's, it's really trite, right"},{"startTime":545.58,"endTime":549.93,"body":"to talk about and I don't even"},{"startTime":549.93,"endTime":552.03,"body":"want to say it, because every"},{"startTime":549.93,"endTime":552.03,"body":"time I hear it, it's like nails"},{"startTime":552.03,"endTime":555.93,"body":"on a chalkboard for me. nature"},{"startTime":552.03,"endTime":555.93,"body":"versus nurture, right. And we"},{"startTime":555.93,"endTime":560.22,"body":"all know that it's, that's a"},{"startTime":555.93,"endTime":560.22,"body":"false dichotomy. Its nature and"},{"startTime":560.22,"endTime":566.61,"body":"nurture. And so we, I think, I"},{"startTime":560.22,"endTime":566.61,"body":"think of it as a pendulum. I"},{"startTime":566.61,"endTime":571.8,"body":"think in the past folks talked"},{"startTime":566.61,"endTime":571.8,"body":"almost solely about genes in"},{"startTime":571.8,"endTime":577.32,"body":"genetics, and you know,"},{"startTime":571.8,"endTime":577.32,"body":"deterministic terms and a dog is"},{"startTime":577.35,"endTime":581.25,"body":"X, Y, or Z genetics, and so"},{"startTime":577.35,"endTime":581.25,"body":"they're going to be X, Y or Z,"},{"startTime":581.34,"endTime":585.72,"body":"behavioral phenotype as well as"},{"startTime":581.34,"endTime":585.72,"body":"physical phenotype. And then the"},{"startTime":585.72,"endTime":590.4,"body":"pendulum kind of swung the other"},{"startTime":585.72,"endTime":590.4,"body":"way, in terms of animals are"},{"startTime":590.4,"endTime":595.74,"body":"blank slates and we can provide"},{"startTime":590.4,"endTime":595.74,"body":"a particular environment we can"},{"startTime":595.74,"endTime":599.97,"body":"provide particular inputs and"},{"startTime":595.74,"endTime":599.97,"body":"learning experiences, and we can"},{"startTime":600.0,"endTime":604.41,"body":"and sort of mold animals to be"},{"startTime":600.0,"endTime":604.41,"body":"anything we want them to be. And"},{"startTime":604.44,"endTime":609.24,"body":"we sort of forgot about the"},{"startTime":604.44,"endTime":609.24,"body":"genetic part, right. And I think"},{"startTime":609.27,"endTime":613.5,"body":"that, certainly my perspective,"},{"startTime":609.27,"endTime":613.5,"body":"and I think the perspective of"},{"startTime":613.5,"endTime":617.76,"body":"most people that work in the"},{"startTime":613.5,"endTime":617.76,"body":"area is that we have both. So"},{"startTime":617.76,"endTime":620.79,"body":"you have a genetic background,"},{"startTime":617.76,"endTime":620.79,"body":"the way I describe it to people,"},{"startTime":620.79,"endTime":624.3,"body":"when I'm talking to like private"},{"startTime":620.79,"endTime":624.3,"body":"clients, for example, is like,"},{"startTime":624.3,"endTime":627.21,"body":"if you think of, and I'll"},{"startTime":624.3,"endTime":627.21,"body":"preface this with saying, I'm"},{"startTime":627.21,"endTime":629.85,"body":"really bad with metaphors, so"},{"startTime":627.21,"endTime":629.85,"body":"forgive me, it's probably going"},{"startTime":629.85,"endTime":635.25,"body":"to be a terrible for but if you"},{"startTime":629.85,"endTime":635.25,"body":"think about it, as a car, right,"},{"startTime":635.28,"endTime":638.91,"body":"and the genetics are sort of the"},{"startTime":635.28,"endTime":638.91,"body":"speedometer, and I didn't invent"},{"startTime":638.91,"endTime":642.36,"body":"this, I'm sure somebody else"},{"startTime":638.91,"endTime":642.36,"body":"invented this analogy. But"},{"startTime":642.36,"endTime":646.2,"body":"you're sort of working within"},{"startTime":642.36,"endTime":646.2,"body":"the confines, and you're never"},{"startTime":646.2,"endTime":650.16,"body":"you can shift the sort of"},{"startTime":646.2,"endTime":650.16,"body":"average speed or the needle,"},{"startTime":650.19,"endTime":653.73,"body":"right, when you're talking about"},{"startTime":650.19,"endTime":653.73,"body":"the sensitization and counter"},{"startTime":653.73,"endTime":657.09,"body":"conditioning and learning, you"},{"startTime":653.73,"endTime":657.09,"body":"know, associative learning"},{"startTime":657.09,"endTime":660.36,"body":"experiences. But you're not"},{"startTime":657.09,"endTime":660.36,"body":"going to turn a Pinto into a"},{"startTime":660.36,"endTime":664.11,"body":"Lamborghini, and vice versa,"},{"startTime":660.36,"endTime":664.11,"body":"like you have the sort of"},{"startTime":664.11,"endTime":667.71,"body":"mechanics that are underpinning"},{"startTime":664.11,"endTime":667.71,"body":"that you're working with. And"},{"startTime":667.71,"endTime":672.21,"body":"that's the way I think of the"},{"startTime":667.71,"endTime":672.21,"body":"sort of genetic background of"},{"startTime":672.24,"endTime":675.57,"body":"the dog that you're working"},{"startTime":672.24,"endTime":675.57,"body":"with. And then within that you"},{"startTime":675.57,"endTime":680.07,"body":"are aiming. When you're doing b"},{"startTime":675.57,"endTime":680.07,"body":"mod, you're aiming to change"},{"startTime":680.07,"endTime":682.65,"body":"things, but when you're raising"},{"startTime":680.07,"endTime":682.65,"body":"an animal, you're just aiming"},{"startTime":682.65,"endTime":685.74,"body":"to, like get them to a"},{"startTime":682.65,"endTime":685.74,"body":"particular place. Does that make"},{"startTime":685.74,"endTime":687.78,"body":"sense? Is that a terrible"},{"startTime":685.74,"endTime":687.78,"body":"metaphor?"},{"startTime":687.84,"endTime":690.96,"body":"Sorry, you were like, right in"},{"startTime":687.84,"endTime":690.96,"body":"my brain right there, because I"},{"startTime":690.96,"endTime":693.45,"body":"was thinking this would be a"},{"startTime":690.96,"endTime":693.45,"body":"good place for a car analogy."},{"startTime":694.26,"endTime":696.06,"body":"You know, if you're talking"},{"startTime":694.26,"endTime":696.06,"body":"about things like phenotype and"},{"startTime":696.06,"endTime":699.0,"body":"like, you know, so you get the"},{"startTime":696.06,"endTime":699.0,"body":"these these dogs, they they're"},{"startTime":699.03,"endTime":701.88,"body":"bred, and then you see certain"},{"startTime":699.03,"endTime":701.88,"body":"appearance, of course, but then"},{"startTime":701.88,"endTime":704.64,"body":"we're looking at the behavior"},{"startTime":701.88,"endTime":704.64,"body":"aspect that they're often trying"},{"startTime":704.64,"endTime":709.14,"body":"to select for. And it's not just"},{"startTime":704.64,"endTime":709.14,"body":"again, you might have that Pinto"},{"startTime":709.14,"endTime":711.69,"body":"you were just talking about, but"},{"startTime":709.14,"endTime":711.69,"body":"there's so many other variables"},{"startTime":711.69,"endTime":716.73,"body":"that can impact the performance"},{"startTime":711.69,"endTime":716.73,"body":"of that car. Right. And so, on"},{"startTime":716.73,"endTime":719.94,"body":"top of the genetics, we have to"},{"startTime":716.73,"endTime":719.94,"body":"talk about the experiences as"},{"startTime":719.94,"endTime":723.27,"body":"well, because I know we've we've"},{"startTime":719.94,"endTime":723.27,"body":"all met pitbulls that you know,"},{"startTime":723.27,"endTime":726.24,"body":"they're the lemons, right? So if"},{"startTime":723.27,"endTime":726.24,"body":"we're going to the car analogy,"},{"startTime":726.45,"endTime":729.33,"body":"they don't work out like they're"},{"startTime":726.45,"endTime":729.33,"body":"supposed to, or so maybe you go"},{"startTime":729.33,"endTime":731.79,"body":"out and you're like, you're"},{"startTime":729.33,"endTime":731.79,"body":"building these Lamborghinis. But"},{"startTime":731.79,"endTime":734.85,"body":"then you get one that can go 20"},{"startTime":731.79,"endTime":734.85,"body":"miles an hour, let's say that's"},{"startTime":734.85,"endTime":738.78,"body":"a lemon, it's not performing"},{"startTime":734.85,"endTime":738.78,"body":"like we're trying to build, or"},{"startTime":738.78,"endTime":742.86,"body":"like, what, what they're"},{"startTime":738.78,"endTime":742.86,"body":"selecting for? And so yeah, the"},{"startTime":742.86,"endTime":745.68,"body":"car analogy totally makes sense"},{"startTime":742.86,"endTime":745.68,"body":"for me. You know, I kind of want"},{"startTime":745.68,"endTime":748.26,"body":"to talk more about that to the"},{"startTime":745.68,"endTime":748.26,"body":"other influences, right? When"},{"startTime":748.26,"endTime":752.19,"body":"we're talking about behavior. So"},{"startTime":748.26,"endTime":752.19,"body":"we've got the genetics, what we"},{"startTime":752.19,"endTime":755.52,"body":"might be selecting for, but what"},{"startTime":752.19,"endTime":755.52,"body":"other influences to typically"},{"startTime":755.52,"endTime":759.54,"body":"see, in those kinds of cases,"},{"startTime":755.52,"endTime":759.54,"body":"that's going to impact behavior."},{"startTime":760.65,"endTime":764.67,"body":"Well, I mean, it's everything"},{"startTime":760.65,"endTime":764.67,"body":"right, so you have the"},{"startTime":765.0,"endTime":768.03,"body":"environmental conditions, so"},{"startTime":765.0,"endTime":768.03,"body":"that the conditions that are"},{"startTime":768.03,"endTime":771.72,"body":"housed in and, you know, this"},{"startTime":768.03,"endTime":771.72,"body":"does go back to the the raising"},{"startTime":771.72,"endTime":778.2,"body":"component, you have the learned"},{"startTime":771.72,"endTime":778.2,"body":"experiences, so the training"},{"startTime":778.41,"endTime":783.45,"body":"that is given to these dogs,"},{"startTime":778.41,"endTime":783.45,"body":"which is not some, the training"},{"startTime":783.45,"endTime":785.85,"body":"that we think of when we talk"},{"startTime":783.45,"endTime":785.85,"body":"about training, but you know,"},{"startTime":785.85,"endTime":790.56,"body":"the sort of training fights and"},{"startTime":785.85,"endTime":790.56,"body":"sort of teaching them that they"},{"startTime":790.56,"endTime":795.63,"body":"need to be aggressive in order"},{"startTime":790.56,"endTime":795.63,"body":"to survive, essentially, and"},{"startTime":795.63,"endTime":797.91,"body":"that's a little bit"},{"startTime":795.63,"endTime":797.91,"body":"anthropomorphic terms to put it"},{"startTime":797.91,"endTime":802.8,"body":"in. But there are mock fights"},{"startTime":797.91,"endTime":802.8,"body":"where they pit the dogs against"},{"startTime":802.83,"endTime":806.55,"body":"either, you know, a handicapped"},{"startTime":802.83,"endTime":806.55,"body":"dog that, you know, is"},{"startTime":806.82,"endTime":810.0,"body":"physically prevented from"},{"startTime":806.82,"endTime":810.0,"body":"injuring them to sort of build"},{"startTime":810.0,"endTime":816.03,"body":"confidence and then exposing"},{"startTime":810.0,"endTime":816.03,"body":"them to dogs, it will be"},{"startTime":816.03,"endTime":819.66,"body":"superior fighters to them to"},{"startTime":816.03,"endTime":819.66,"body":"instill sort of some"},{"startTime":819.66,"endTime":824.31,"body":"defensiveness and need to"},{"startTime":819.66,"endTime":824.31,"body":"aggress. So they're sort of the"},{"startTime":824.31,"endTime":828.57,"body":"whole package. There's also, in"},{"startTime":824.31,"endTime":828.57,"body":"addition to the things that"},{"startTime":828.57,"endTime":832.68,"body":"they're actively doing, they're"},{"startTime":828.57,"endTime":832.68,"body":"things that are just passively"},{"startTime":832.74,"endTime":835.71,"body":"being withheld from them in"},{"startTime":832.74,"endTime":835.71,"body":"terms of opportunities for"},{"startTime":835.71,"endTime":839.52,"body":"socialization and experiences"},{"startTime":835.71,"endTime":839.52,"body":"with the world. And we can"},{"startTime":839.64,"endTime":843.12,"body":"definitely come back to this,"},{"startTime":839.64,"endTime":843.12,"body":"because we see a high degree of"},{"startTime":843.12,"endTime":847.02,"body":"fear in a lot of these dogs as"},{"startTime":843.12,"endTime":847.02,"body":"well, in terms of just sort of"},{"startTime":847.02,"endTime":851.19,"body":"normal environmental situations"},{"startTime":847.02,"endTime":851.19,"body":"that they may not have been"},{"startTime":851.19,"endTime":854.46,"body":"exposed to that do lend"},{"startTime":851.19,"endTime":854.46,"body":"themselves to behavioral"},{"startTime":854.46,"endTime":859.11,"body":"rehabilitation. So yeah, there's"},{"startTime":854.46,"endTime":859.11,"body":"that whole, I think what we"},{"startTime":859.11,"endTime":861.9,"body":"would all think of when we when"},{"startTime":859.11,"endTime":861.9,"body":"we talk about, you know, how you"},{"startTime":861.9,"endTime":866.49,"body":"raise them. But then to circle"},{"startTime":861.9,"endTime":866.49,"body":"back to the genetics, even"},{"startTime":866.49,"endTime":870.18,"body":"within that you have individuals"},{"startTime":866.49,"endTime":870.18,"body":"that experience these really"},{"startTime":870.48,"endTime":876.27,"body":"limiting and inadequate"},{"startTime":870.48,"endTime":876.27,"body":"circumstances and are resilient,"},{"startTime":876.3,"endTime":880.89,"body":"right, and so they do come"},{"startTime":876.3,"endTime":880.89,"body":"through it without large"},{"startTime":880.89,"endTime":885.15,"body":"behavioral deficits, which"},{"startTime":880.89,"endTime":885.15,"body":"again, goes back to individual"},{"startTime":885.15,"endTime":889.77,"body":"differences and is probably"},{"startTime":885.15,"endTime":889.77,"body":"related to the genetic makeup of"},{"startTime":889.77,"endTime":895.11,"body":"that particular dog. I think,"},{"startTime":889.77,"endTime":895.11,"body":"certainly the way behavioral"},{"startTime":895.11,"endTime":899.49,"body":"genetics is portrayed in the"},{"startTime":895.11,"endTime":899.49,"body":"popular press, it's, you know,"},{"startTime":899.49,"endTime":903.78,"body":"we found The an aggression gene"},{"startTime":899.49,"endTime":903.78,"body":"or we found a fat gene or we,"},{"startTime":904.17,"endTime":908.37,"body":"you know, like we talk folks"},{"startTime":904.17,"endTime":908.37,"body":"like easy answers. And they also"},{"startTime":908.37,"endTime":912.6,"body":"like clickbait headlines. And so"},{"startTime":908.37,"endTime":912.6,"body":"we talk about things in very"},{"startTime":912.6,"endTime":917.19,"body":"simplistic terms. And I am not a"},{"startTime":912.6,"endTime":917.19,"body":"geneticist, so I'm not going to"},{"startTime":917.19,"endTime":922.26,"body":"pretend that I am. But I think"},{"startTime":917.19,"endTime":922.26,"body":"if you asked 10, behavioral"},{"startTime":922.26,"endTime":926.28,"body":"geneticists, they would all say"},{"startTime":922.26,"endTime":926.28,"body":"that it's very complicated,"},{"startTime":926.31,"endTime":929.79,"body":"you're dealing with what they"},{"startTime":926.31,"endTime":929.79,"body":"call, many genes have small"},{"startTime":929.79,"endTime":933.78,"body":"effects. So it's not like"},{"startTime":929.79,"endTime":933.78,"body":"there's a specific gene that"},{"startTime":933.78,"endTime":939.24,"body":"you're selecting on, which tends"},{"startTime":933.78,"endTime":939.24,"body":"to mean you have more"},{"startTime":939.24,"endTime":943.44,"body":"variability in the behavioral"},{"startTime":939.24,"endTime":943.44,"body":"phenotype of the offspring from"},{"startTime":943.44,"endTime":949.5,"body":"any given pairing, because it is"},{"startTime":943.44,"endTime":949.5,"body":"more complicated in terms of how"},{"startTime":949.5,"endTime":955.08,"body":"these things are transmitted."},{"startTime":949.5,"endTime":955.08,"body":"intergenerationally. So that's,"},{"startTime":955.11,"endTime":960.63,"body":"that's one component. And then"},{"startTime":955.11,"endTime":960.63,"body":"you, you mentioned working"},{"startTime":960.63,"endTime":967.62,"body":"lines, right. And that's how I"},{"startTime":960.63,"endTime":967.62,"body":"kind of conceptualize the fight"},{"startTime":967.62,"endTime":971.31,"body":"bred pitbulls as being"},{"startTime":967.62,"endTime":971.31,"body":"essentially a type of a working"},{"startTime":971.31,"endTime":975.54,"body":"line. But for folks that are"},{"startTime":971.31,"endTime":975.54,"body":"familiar with other breeds, the"},{"startTime":975.54,"endTime":980.82,"body":"differences between working line"},{"startTime":975.54,"endTime":980.82,"body":"and show line or field bred and"},{"startTime":981.12,"endTime":986.07,"body":"you know, just your standard"},{"startTime":981.12,"endTime":986.07,"body":"average companion, pet bred dog,"},{"startTime":986.22,"endTime":991.74,"body":"there's, within a given breed,"},{"startTime":986.22,"endTime":991.74,"body":"there's a wide variety of"},{"startTime":991.8,"endTime":995.4,"body":"different lines or types,"},{"startTime":991.8,"endTime":995.4,"body":"behavioral phenotypes that you"},{"startTime":995.4,"endTime":1000.11,"body":"can get through artificial"},{"startTime":995.4,"endTime":1000.11,"body":"selection, right. So through"},{"startTime":1000.11,"endTime":1006.02,"body":"imposing specific traits that"},{"startTime":1000.11,"endTime":1006.02,"body":"you want to maintain this sort"},{"startTime":1006.02,"endTime":1011.03,"body":"of debate around pitbulls really"},{"startTime":1006.02,"endTime":1011.03,"body":"ignores that fact, right? So"},{"startTime":1011.03,"endTime":1016.04,"body":"just because 200 years ago,"},{"startTime":1011.03,"endTime":1016.04,"body":"somebody bred for specific"},{"startTime":1016.04,"endTime":1020.0,"body":"traits, and a particular breed"},{"startTime":1016.04,"endTime":1020.0,"body":"does not mean that the dog you"},{"startTime":1020.0,"endTime":1025.19,"body":"meet on the street today has had"},{"startTime":1020.0,"endTime":1025.19,"body":"any selective pressure on it in"},{"startTime":1025.19,"endTime":1029.96,"body":"that vein, for, you know,"},{"startTime":1025.19,"endTime":1029.96,"body":"however, many generations are"},{"startTime":1029.96,"endTime":1034.52,"body":"between then and now. And that"},{"startTime":1029.96,"endTime":1034.52,"body":"has a massive impact on the"},{"startTime":1034.52,"endTime":1039.59,"body":"behavior, right? So just like if"},{"startTime":1034.52,"endTime":1039.59,"body":"you stopped selecting and for"},{"startTime":1039.62,"endTime":1045.62,"body":"hurting ability and a collie"},{"startTime":1039.62,"endTime":1045.62,"body":"line today, 200 years from now,"},{"startTime":1045.86,"endTime":1048.83,"body":"you're probably not going to"},{"startTime":1045.86,"endTime":1048.83,"body":"have a functional, you know,"},{"startTime":1048.98,"endTime":1052.73,"body":"herding dog. Right? So that"},{"startTime":1048.98,"endTime":1052.73,"body":"makes sense. And so it's, again,"},{"startTime":1052.73,"endTime":1056.57,"body":"this kind of simplification of a"},{"startTime":1052.73,"endTime":1056.57,"body":"nuanced discussion."},{"startTime":1057.26,"endTime":1060.83,"body":"Yeah, so kind of had me thinking"},{"startTime":1057.26,"endTime":1060.83,"body":"about going back to this, you"},{"startTime":1060.83,"endTime":1065.06,"body":"know, the lemons that don't work"},{"startTime":1060.83,"endTime":1065.06,"body":"out, right. And we think about"},{"startTime":1065.06,"endTime":1068.6,"body":"other other working tasks, you"},{"startTime":1065.06,"endTime":1068.6,"body":"know, so I'd like to Bruiser,"},{"startTime":1068.6,"endTime":1070.88,"body":"we're talking about German"},{"startTime":1068.6,"endTime":1070.88,"body":"Shepherds. But in your"},{"startTime":1070.88,"endTime":1073.94,"body":"experience, if you had an"},{"startTime":1070.88,"endTime":1073.94,"body":"estimate of the number of dogs"},{"startTime":1073.94,"endTime":1077.42,"body":"that actually don't do well in"},{"startTime":1073.94,"endTime":1077.42,"body":"that particular arena, so they"},{"startTime":1077.42,"endTime":1080.75,"body":"don't they don't actually do"},{"startTime":1077.42,"endTime":1080.75,"body":"well as fighting dogs. Do you"},{"startTime":1080.75,"endTime":1082.31,"body":"have any data on that?"},{"startTime":1082.64,"endTime":1089.69,"body":"I think it varies, Mike, I think"},{"startTime":1082.64,"endTime":1089.69,"body":"there are particular individuals"},{"startTime":1089.72,"endTime":1093.23,"body":"that are quote unquote, good"},{"startTime":1089.72,"endTime":1093.23,"body":"breeders for what they're"},{"startTime":1093.23,"endTime":1098.33,"body":"breeding for. And they might"},{"startTime":1093.23,"endTime":1098.33,"body":"have more sophisticated breeding"},{"startTime":1098.33,"endTime":1103.61,"body":"programs. And they might have a"},{"startTime":1098.33,"endTime":1103.61,"body":"much higher success rate. I know"},{"startTime":1103.61,"endTime":1108.44,"body":"that one of our bloodsports"},{"startTime":1103.61,"endTime":1108.44,"body":"investigators, Terry Mills, he"},{"startTime":1108.44,"endTime":1113.06,"body":"has a quote that says, you know,"},{"startTime":1108.44,"endTime":1113.06,"body":"you're lucky if you get one game"},{"startTime":1113.06,"endTime":1117.74,"body":"dog in a litter. And that might"},{"startTime":1113.06,"endTime":1117.74,"body":"be even for, quote, unquote,"},{"startTime":1117.74,"endTime":1122.99,"body":"good breeding operations. And I"},{"startTime":1117.74,"endTime":1122.99,"body":"think in just our anecdotal"},{"startTime":1123.02,"endTime":1127.37,"body":"experience, so we've not me"},{"startTime":1123.02,"endTime":1127.37,"body":"personally, as an organization"},{"startTime":1127.37,"endTime":1132.89,"body":"have done hundreds of cases and"},{"startTime":1127.37,"endTime":1132.89,"body":"have dealt with 1000s of dogs."},{"startTime":1132.89,"endTime":1139.55,"body":"And it might vary from a third"},{"startTime":1132.89,"endTime":1139.55,"body":"of the population to half the"},{"startTime":1139.55,"endTime":1144.47,"body":"population that are extremely"},{"startTime":1139.55,"endTime":1144.47,"body":"aggressive to conspecifics,"},{"startTime":1144.74,"endTime":1149.78,"body":"which, if you think about it, is"},{"startTime":1144.74,"endTime":1149.78,"body":"really low, right in terms of"},{"startTime":1149.78,"endTime":1157.43,"body":"your woman to win or ratio. But"},{"startTime":1149.78,"endTime":1157.43,"body":"if you look at even very"},{"startTime":1157.43,"endTime":1162.68,"body":"sophisticated and organized"},{"startTime":1157.43,"endTime":1162.68,"body":"breeding programs, so like the"},{"startTime":1162.68,"endTime":1166.91,"body":"military working dogs at"},{"startTime":1162.68,"endTime":1166.91,"body":"Lackland, Air Force Base, I"},{"startTime":1166.91,"endTime":1170.78,"body":"read, and this was just an"},{"startTime":1166.91,"endTime":1170.78,"body":"interview, but it was with one"},{"startTime":1170.78,"endTime":1174.47,"body":"of their military personnel who"},{"startTime":1170.78,"endTime":1174.47,"body":"said that their washout rate is"},{"startTime":1174.47,"endTime":1180.17,"body":"about 50%. Right. And so I think"},{"startTime":1174.47,"endTime":1180.17,"body":"that's super illustrative that"},{"startTime":1180.2,"endTime":1183.71,"body":"you really have to assess the"},{"startTime":1180.2,"endTime":1183.71,"body":"individual dog in front of you"},{"startTime":1183.71,"endTime":1188.33,"body":"because just knowing even that"},{"startTime":1183.71,"endTime":1188.33,"body":"they're from a specific line,"},{"startTime":1188.96,"endTime":1193.49,"body":"does not mean that they're going"},{"startTime":1188.96,"endTime":1193.49,"body":"to have that suite of behavioral"},{"startTime":1193.49,"endTime":1199.19,"body":"characteristics that you want,"},{"startTime":1193.49,"endTime":1199.19,"body":"be that for good or for ill"},{"startTime":1199.22,"endTime":1200.45,"body":"purposes. Right."},{"startTime":1201.38,"endTime":1204.41,"body":"So in other words, if we're"},{"startTime":1201.38,"endTime":1204.41,"body":"going back to our car analogy,"},{"startTime":1204.44,"endTime":1207.11,"body":"we could say that the production"},{"startTime":1204.44,"endTime":1207.11,"body":"line needs a lot of work."},{"startTime":1207.98,"endTime":1210.32,"body":"Because we're not gonna get"},{"startTime":1207.98,"endTime":1210.32,"body":"consistency."},{"startTime":1211.49,"endTime":1215.51,"body":"Right? Yeah, you're getting like"},{"startTime":1211.49,"endTime":1215.51,"body":"a Lamborghini and then a Pinto."},{"startTime":1215.51,"endTime":1218.72,"body":"And then I don't want to insult"},{"startTime":1215.51,"endTime":1218.72,"body":"any particular cars. I'm just"},{"startTime":1218.72,"endTime":1227.06,"body":"throwing word salad out there."},{"startTime":1218.72,"endTime":1227.06,"body":"Subaru. Yeah, very, very"},{"startTime":1227.06,"endTime":1232.91,"body":"inconsistent, but again, with"},{"startTime":1227.06,"endTime":1232.91,"body":"some variation in terms of how"},{"startTime":1233.12,"endTime":1237.8,"body":"good the breeders or the person"},{"startTime":1233.12,"endTime":1237.8,"body":"was in their breeding program."},{"startTime":1239.54,"endTime":1243.11,"body":"Are you seeing now that you're"},{"startTime":1239.54,"endTime":1243.11,"body":"you've been working these cases"},{"startTime":1243.11,"endTime":1246.8,"body":"for a long time? Are you seeing"},{"startTime":1243.11,"endTime":1246.8,"body":"a reduction in the number of"},{"startTime":1246.83,"endTime":1249.86,"body":"fight cases are you seeing an"},{"startTime":1246.83,"endTime":1249.86,"body":"increase are about the same?"},{"startTime":1250.97,"endTime":1257.27,"body":"So it's so hard to get good"},{"startTime":1250.97,"endTime":1257.27,"body":"numbers about, you know, like,"},{"startTime":1257.27,"endTime":1261.86,"body":"absolute numbers about the"},{"startTime":1257.27,"endTime":1261.86,"body":"situation? Because it is"},{"startTime":1261.86,"endTime":1267.2,"body":"illicit, it's underground. So"},{"startTime":1261.86,"endTime":1267.2,"body":"it's kind of hard to track. And"},{"startTime":1267.2,"endTime":1272.42,"body":"it's very complicated, because"},{"startTime":1267.2,"endTime":1272.42,"body":"while you know, prosecutors"},{"startTime":1272.45,"endTime":1276.47,"body":"would love to prosecute every"},{"startTime":1272.45,"endTime":1276.47,"body":"potential fighting case that"},{"startTime":1276.47,"endTime":1283.16,"body":"they could, I'm sure, it's hard"},{"startTime":1276.47,"endTime":1283.16,"body":"because you do have this one,"},{"startTime":1283.64,"endTime":1286.97,"body":"the component of the animals"},{"startTime":1283.64,"endTime":1286.97,"body":"being living evidence. And so"},{"startTime":1287.09,"endTime":1293.6,"body":"it's a massive undertaking to"},{"startTime":1287.09,"endTime":1293.6,"body":"care for, and how's the animals"},{"startTime":1293.63,"endTime":1296.9,"body":"after they conduct a raid?"},{"startTime":1293.63,"endTime":1296.9,"body":"Right? So then it's like, where"},{"startTime":1296.9,"endTime":1298.94,"body":"are we going to keep these"},{"startTime":1296.9,"endTime":1298.94,"body":"animals? How are we going to"},{"startTime":1298.94,"endTime":1304.28,"body":"care for them, until the court"},{"startTime":1298.94,"endTime":1304.28,"body":"decides if they're going to go"},{"startTime":1304.28,"endTime":1307.37,"body":"back to the owner, or if they're"},{"startTime":1304.28,"endTime":1307.37,"body":"going to be permanently"},{"startTime":1307.37,"endTime":1311.81,"body":"confiscated. And so there's a"},{"startTime":1307.37,"endTime":1311.81,"body":"lot of costs and complexity"},{"startTime":1311.81,"endTime":1315.29,"body":"associated with that, that not"},{"startTime":1311.81,"endTime":1315.29,"body":"all, you know, Prosecutor"},{"startTime":1315.29,"endTime":1320.21,"body":"offices would necessarily be"},{"startTime":1315.29,"endTime":1320.21,"body":"able to support which the A"},{"startTime":1320.57,"endTime":1324.38,"body":"tries to help with, you know, as"},{"startTime":1320.57,"endTime":1324.38,"body":"much as possible when we do"},{"startTime":1324.41,"endTime":1327.47,"body":"participate in cases in terms of"},{"startTime":1324.41,"endTime":1327.47,"body":"the housing and care for the"},{"startTime":1327.47,"endTime":1334.43,"body":"animals. But prior to that, you"},{"startTime":1327.47,"endTime":1334.43,"body":"have the investigation. And it"},{"startTime":1334.46,"endTime":1339.83,"body":"is similar to any kind of"},{"startTime":1334.46,"endTime":1339.83,"body":"undercover investigation, like a"},{"startTime":1339.86,"endTime":1343.19,"body":"narcotics ring or something,"},{"startTime":1339.86,"endTime":1343.19,"body":"it's very hard to infiltrate,"},{"startTime":1343.19,"endTime":1347.84,"body":"you have to get people"},{"startTime":1343.19,"endTime":1347.84,"body":"frequently undercover, to gather"},{"startTime":1347.87,"endTime":1353.27,"body":"enough evidence to actually get"},{"startTime":1347.87,"endTime":1353.27,"body":"warrants and execute a raid on"},{"startTime":1353.27,"endTime":1357.14,"body":"the law enforcement side of"},{"startTime":1353.27,"endTime":1357.14,"body":"things, which, so for all of"},{"startTime":1357.14,"endTime":1363.11,"body":"those reasons, I think it's"},{"startTime":1357.14,"endTime":1363.11,"body":"really challenging to know, what"},{"startTime":1363.11,"endTime":1367.31,"body":"I can say is that dog fighting"},{"startTime":1363.11,"endTime":1367.31,"body":"is illegal in all 50 states,"},{"startTime":1367.4,"endTime":1372.29,"body":"even attending of dog fight is"},{"startTime":1367.4,"endTime":1372.29,"body":"illegal in all 50 states. But"},{"startTime":1372.29,"endTime":1376.94,"body":"the estimates are that there's,"},{"startTime":1372.29,"endTime":1376.94,"body":"you know, 10s of 1000s of people"},{"startTime":1377.06,"endTime":1383.27,"body":"that are actually associated"},{"startTime":1377.06,"endTime":1383.27,"body":"with dogfighting at any time in"},{"startTime":1383.27,"endTime":1388.22,"body":"the United States. And it covers"},{"startTime":1383.27,"endTime":1388.22,"body":"a super wide demographic, and we"},{"startTime":1388.22,"endTime":1392.06,"body":"can, you know, I imagine maybe"},{"startTime":1388.22,"endTime":1392.06,"body":"we'll talk more about the sort"},{"startTime":1392.06,"endTime":1396.05,"body":"of this the housing and we think"},{"startTime":1392.06,"endTime":1396.05,"body":"of dogfighting as being this"},{"startTime":1396.05,"endTime":1398.96,"body":"sort of extensive, you know,"},{"startTime":1396.05,"endTime":1398.96,"body":"they're outdoors or on these"},{"startTime":1398.96,"endTime":1403.22,"body":"chain spaces. And but we've had"},{"startTime":1398.96,"endTime":1403.22,"body":"cases in Brooklyn, where you"},{"startTime":1403.22,"endTime":1408.14,"body":"have a whole, many, many dogs"},{"startTime":1403.22,"endTime":1408.14,"body":"stacked in terrible conditions"},{"startTime":1408.14,"endTime":1411.8,"body":"and crates in a basement in a"},{"startTime":1408.14,"endTime":1411.8,"body":"building in a city. So it really"},{"startTime":1411.8,"endTime":1415.67,"body":"is occurring and probably more"},{"startTime":1411.8,"endTime":1415.67,"body":"places than we like to think it"},{"startTime":1415.67,"endTime":1416.12,"body":"is."},{"startTime":1416.78,"endTime":1420.59,"body":"Yeah, so still sounds like quite"},{"startTime":1416.78,"endTime":1420.59,"body":"a widespread issue and problem."},{"startTime":1421.76,"endTime":1425.84,"body":"It's it's tragic in so many"},{"startTime":1421.76,"endTime":1425.84,"body":"ways, because the question I had"},{"startTime":1425.84,"endTime":1430.91,"body":"next is about the dogs that do"},{"startTime":1425.84,"endTime":1430.91,"body":"pass the assessments. So they"},{"startTime":1430.91,"endTime":1435.11,"body":"you the somebody deems them safe"},{"startTime":1430.91,"endTime":1435.11,"body":"for adoption, do you find"},{"startTime":1435.11,"endTime":1438.14,"body":"sometimes some of those dogs? So"},{"startTime":1435.11,"endTime":1438.14,"body":"we put behavior assessments on"},{"startTime":1438.14,"endTime":1441.02,"body":"dogs, and we often look at many"},{"startTime":1438.14,"endTime":1441.02,"body":"different aspects of assessing"},{"startTime":1441.02,"endTime":1444.17,"body":"for behavior, not just one"},{"startTime":1441.02,"endTime":1444.17,"body":"assessment, or, you know, we add"},{"startTime":1444.17,"endTime":1448.28,"body":"in a more robust way of"},{"startTime":1444.17,"endTime":1448.28,"body":"determining what this particular"},{"startTime":1448.28,"endTime":1450.71,"body":"dog might be like, whether it's"},{"startTime":1448.28,"endTime":1450.71,"body":"in a foster home or with the"},{"startTime":1450.89,"endTime":1454.55,"body":"people that are handling the"},{"startTime":1450.89,"endTime":1454.55,"body":"dog. Do you have cases where it"},{"startTime":1454.55,"endTime":1457.49,"body":"becomes an ethical concern or"},{"startTime":1454.55,"endTime":1457.49,"body":"questions of saying, how do you"},{"startTime":1457.49,"endTime":1461.24,"body":"really know? You know, if you"},{"startTime":1457.49,"endTime":1461.24,"body":"have that question, pointed at"},{"startTime":1461.24,"endTime":1461.48,"body":"you, what"},{"startTime":1461.66,"endTime":1465.2,"body":"do you really know in terms of"},{"startTime":1461.66,"endTime":1465.2,"body":"placement? Right, so"},{"startTime":1465.86,"endTime":1468.8,"body":"maybe three months down the"},{"startTime":1465.86,"endTime":1468.8,"body":"road, something happens and"},{"startTime":1468.8,"endTime":1470.96,"body":"somebody comes back to say,"},{"startTime":1468.8,"endTime":1470.96,"body":"well, you know, this dog"},{"startTime":1470.96,"endTime":1474.2,"body":"attacked another dog or, you"},{"startTime":1470.96,"endTime":1474.2,"body":"know, what do you do in those"},{"startTime":1474.2,"endTime":1474.86,"body":"cases?"},{"startTime":1475.88,"endTime":1482.96,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I think that we"},{"startTime":1475.88,"endTime":1482.96,"body":"always have concerns or put a"},{"startTime":1482.96,"endTime":1487.31,"body":"lot of sort of intention and"},{"startTime":1482.96,"endTime":1487.31,"body":"thought into all of the"},{"startTime":1487.31,"endTime":1491.51,"body":"placement decisions because we"},{"startTime":1487.31,"endTime":1491.51,"body":"do have an ethical duty to the"},{"startTime":1491.51,"endTime":1496.64,"body":"community to be placing animals"},{"startTime":1491.51,"endTime":1496.64,"body":"that are safe to place. I think"},{"startTime":1496.82,"endTime":1500.72,"body":"you touched on one of the"},{"startTime":1496.82,"endTime":1500.72,"body":"factors that helps so as to be"},{"startTime":1500.72,"endTime":1505.76,"body":"confident is the duration of"},{"startTime":1500.72,"endTime":1505.76,"body":"time with which we see the"},{"startTime":1505.76,"endTime":1510.68,"body":"animals, right. And so it's not"},{"startTime":1505.76,"endTime":1510.68,"body":"just that initial assessment,"},{"startTime":1510.71,"endTime":1515.87,"body":"it's observing them in a variety"},{"startTime":1510.71,"endTime":1515.87,"body":"of situations in the shelter"},{"startTime":1515.87,"endTime":1520.85,"body":"environment, in their kennel"},{"startTime":1515.87,"endTime":1520.85,"body":"during medical handling. In"},{"startTime":1520.85,"endTime":1524.48,"body":"playgroups for the dogs that are"},{"startTime":1520.85,"endTime":1524.48,"body":"safe, you know, to put into play"},{"startTime":1524.48,"endTime":1528.44,"body":"groups, that's a really"},{"startTime":1524.48,"endTime":1528.44,"body":"important form of sort of mental"},{"startTime":1528.62,"endTime":1533.87,"body":"stimulation and enrichment for"},{"startTime":1528.62,"endTime":1533.87,"body":"them. So we see them interacting"},{"startTime":1533.87,"endTime":1539.39,"body":"socially with other dogs. And"},{"startTime":1533.87,"endTime":1539.39,"body":"all through that process"},{"startTime":1539.42,"endTime":1543.56,"body":"observations are being made,"},{"startTime":1539.42,"endTime":1543.56,"body":"they're being documented, any"},{"startTime":1543.56,"endTime":1548.21,"body":"concerns are being flagged in"},{"startTime":1543.56,"endTime":1548.21,"body":"our system, and being followed"},{"startTime":1548.21,"endTime":1556.34,"body":"up on. So we also tend to not do"},{"startTime":1548.21,"endTime":1556.34,"body":"a lot of direct placements. So"},{"startTime":1556.37,"endTime":1560.39,"body":"we work with placement partners,"},{"startTime":1556.37,"endTime":1560.39,"body":"standard brick and mortar"},{"startTime":1560.39,"endTime":1564.62,"body":"shelters who are getting all of"},{"startTime":1560.39,"endTime":1564.62,"body":"the information that we have"},{"startTime":1564.62,"endTime":1567.47,"body":"about the animals, and then they"},{"startTime":1564.62,"endTime":1567.47,"body":"would be also collecting their"},{"startTime":1567.47,"endTime":1572.24,"body":"own information on the animals"},{"startTime":1567.47,"endTime":1572.24,"body":"prior to placing them. And we do"},{"startTime":1572.27,"endTime":1578.6,"body":"we do a follow up with the"},{"startTime":1572.27,"endTime":1578.6,"body":"adoptive owners on a recurring"},{"startTime":1578.75,"endTime":1583.07,"body":"basis. And so we do it, probably"},{"startTime":1578.75,"endTime":1583.07,"body":"gonna get the time points wrong"},{"startTime":1583.1,"endTime":1589.04,"body":"off the top of my head, but a"},{"startTime":1583.1,"endTime":1589.04,"body":"few weeks post placement a month"},{"startTime":1589.07,"endTime":1593.3,"body":"or six months, and then a year"},{"startTime":1589.07,"endTime":1593.3,"body":"post placement. So we do try and"},{"startTime":1593.3,"endTime":1598.64,"body":"do a sort of long term follow up"},{"startTime":1593.3,"endTime":1598.64,"body":"on these animals. And, you know,"},{"startTime":1598.64,"endTime":1603.05,"body":"like a lot of surveys, so the"},{"startTime":1598.64,"endTime":1603.05,"body":"response rate on those is fairly"},{"startTime":1603.11,"endTime":1610.16,"body":"low. And what does that mean? I"},{"startTime":1603.11,"endTime":1610.16,"body":"hope it means that the owners"},{"startTime":1610.16,"endTime":1612.23,"body":"are like, Oh, everything's"},{"startTime":1610.16,"endTime":1612.23,"body":"great. And I don't have time to"},{"startTime":1612.23,"endTime":1615.17,"body":"fill that out. Right. It's sort"},{"startTime":1612.23,"endTime":1615.17,"body":"of like the restaurant reviews"},{"startTime":1615.17,"endTime":1618.23,"body":"where you only hear from the"},{"startTime":1615.17,"endTime":1618.23,"body":"people who are hated the"},{"startTime":1618.29,"endTime":1624.71,"body":"lettuce, or whatever. But within"},{"startTime":1618.29,"endTime":1624.71,"body":"the the surveys that we get"},{"startTime":1624.71,"endTime":1631.58,"body":"back, I would say that we don't"},{"startTime":1624.71,"endTime":1631.58,"body":"have reports of dogs that have"},{"startTime":1631.97,"endTime":1638.66,"body":"done egregious things in the"},{"startTime":1631.97,"endTime":1638.66,"body":"community. So out of hundreds"},{"startTime":1638.69,"endTime":1642.41,"body":"and hundreds of surveys that"},{"startTime":1638.69,"endTime":1642.41,"body":"we've sent back, owners are"},{"startTime":1642.41,"endTime":1649.19,"body":"reporting that the dogs are not"},{"startTime":1642.41,"endTime":1649.19,"body":"always worry free in terms of"},{"startTime":1649.22,"endTime":1653.45,"body":"what dogs are, right. So we they"},{"startTime":1649.22,"endTime":1653.45,"body":"have dogs that are somewhat"},{"startTime":1653.45,"endTime":1657.26,"body":"leash reactive sometimes, and"},{"startTime":1653.45,"endTime":1657.26,"body":"they have dogs that might bark,"},{"startTime":1657.29,"endTime":1661.88,"body":"people coming onto the property,"},{"startTime":1657.29,"endTime":1661.88,"body":"but we're not getting reports of"},{"startTime":1662.0,"endTime":1666.8,"body":"serious injuries to humans or"},{"startTime":1662.0,"endTime":1666.8,"body":"other dogs."},{"startTime":1667.85,"endTime":1670.43,"body":"Yeah, that was gonna, I was"},{"startTime":1667.85,"endTime":1670.43,"body":"thinking as you're going through"},{"startTime":1670.43,"endTime":1673.46,"body":"that, it must be a tremendous"},{"startTime":1670.43,"endTime":1673.46,"body":"amount of pressure and a sense"},{"startTime":1673.46,"endTime":1677.12,"body":"from both sides, if you get what"},{"startTime":1673.46,"endTime":1677.12,"body":"I'm saying. So people that are"},{"startTime":1677.12,"endTime":1680.12,"body":"saying, you know, save them all,"},{"startTime":1677.12,"endTime":1680.12,"body":"you can totally adopt that every"},{"startTime":1680.12,"endTime":1682.85,"body":"single dog and then others that"},{"startTime":1680.12,"endTime":1682.85,"body":"might be saying you're not it's"},{"startTime":1682.85,"endTime":1686.48,"body":"very risky if you're adopting"},{"startTime":1682.85,"endTime":1686.48,"body":"all these dogs from a particular"},{"startTime":1686.48,"endTime":1689.06,"body":"type of case. And so it sounds"},{"startTime":1686.48,"endTime":1689.06,"body":"like you've come up with a"},{"startTime":1689.15,"endTime":1693.26,"body":"fairly robust system of making"},{"startTime":1689.15,"endTime":1693.26,"body":"sure you're crossing your T's"},{"startTime":1693.26,"endTime":1694.28,"body":"and dotting your eyes."},{"startTime":1694.73,"endTime":1702.17,"body":"Yeah, it's definitely been in"},{"startTime":1694.73,"endTime":1702.17,"body":"the middle, where I think it's"},{"startTime":1702.17,"endTime":1705.11,"body":"an indication that you're doing"},{"startTime":1702.17,"endTime":1705.11,"body":"things correctly when you're"},{"startTime":1705.11,"endTime":1711.83,"body":"making everybody annoyed, right?"},{"startTime":1705.11,"endTime":1711.83,"body":"So that you're probably being"},{"startTime":1712.01,"endTime":1719.3,"body":"conservative, but also really"},{"startTime":1712.01,"endTime":1719.3,"body":"committed to, to saving as many"},{"startTime":1719.33,"endTime":1723.2,"body":"dogs as possible that are safe"},{"startTime":1719.33,"endTime":1723.2,"body":"to place in the community,"},{"startTime":1723.23,"endTime":1727.91,"body":"right. And we would love that to"},{"startTime":1723.23,"endTime":1727.91,"body":"be all of them. But the reality"},{"startTime":1727.97,"endTime":1732.02,"body":"of what we see, that's not"},{"startTime":1727.97,"endTime":1732.02,"body":"always the case, the Michael"},{"startTime":1732.02,"endTime":1736.88,"body":"Vick case is really kind of the"},{"startTime":1732.02,"endTime":1736.88,"body":"turning point for placing dogs"},{"startTime":1736.88,"endTime":1741.98,"body":"from fighting cases. Because"},{"startTime":1736.88,"endTime":1741.98,"body":"prior to that, the standard was,"},{"startTime":1741.98,"endTime":1746.27,"body":"like you said, you know, these"},{"startTime":1741.98,"endTime":1746.27,"body":"dogs are from this background,"},{"startTime":1746.3,"endTime":1749.96,"body":"they're not safe to place. And"},{"startTime":1746.3,"endTime":1749.96,"body":"so we're going to euthanize all"},{"startTime":1749.96,"endTime":1755.9,"body":"of them, right. And so I think"},{"startTime":1749.96,"endTime":1755.9,"body":"we forget that we've come a very"},{"startTime":1755.9,"endTime":1760.22,"body":"long way in a relatively short"},{"startTime":1755.9,"endTime":1760.22,"body":"period of time, in terms of"},{"startTime":1760.22,"endTime":1765.98,"body":"shifting the balance from, you"},{"startTime":1760.22,"endTime":1765.98,"body":"know, euthanize, all of them to"},{"startTime":1766.04,"endTime":1772.13,"body":"place as many as possible in a"},{"startTime":1766.04,"endTime":1772.13,"body":"manner that is responsible and"},{"startTime":1772.13,"endTime":1776.12,"body":"ethical for the communities that"},{"startTime":1772.13,"endTime":1776.12,"body":"the dogs are going into. And,"},{"startTime":1776.15,"endTime":1781.67,"body":"you know, I think that we as dog"},{"startTime":1776.15,"endTime":1781.67,"body":"people, we'd get very tunnel"},{"startTime":1781.67,"endTime":1786.74,"body":"vision on the dog in front of"},{"startTime":1781.67,"endTime":1786.74,"body":"us, right and so the particular"},{"startTime":1786.74,"endTime":1790.16,"body":"individual animal in front of us"},{"startTime":1786.74,"endTime":1790.16,"body":"and like, of course, we want to"},{"startTime":1790.22,"endTime":1794.63,"body":"do everything we can for that"},{"startTime":1790.22,"endTime":1794.63,"body":"dog and stepping back and taking"},{"startTime":1794.63,"endTime":1798.08,"body":"the wider view that it's not"},{"startTime":1794.63,"endTime":1798.08,"body":"just this dog. It's all the"},{"startTime":1798.08,"endTime":1800.99,"body":"other dogs in the community that"},{"startTime":1798.08,"endTime":1800.99,"body":"this stuff Dog is going to"},{"startTime":1801.14,"endTime":1805.97,"body":"interact with, it's the family"},{"startTime":1801.14,"endTime":1805.97,"body":"that this dog is going to live"},{"startTime":1805.97,"endTime":1809.3,"body":"with, you know, and how their"},{"startTime":1805.97,"endTime":1809.3,"body":"life is going to be impacted."},{"startTime":1810.05,"endTime":1814.61,"body":"Those are super important things"},{"startTime":1810.05,"endTime":1814.61,"body":"to bear in mind, like the sort"},{"startTime":1814.61,"endTime":1820.85,"body":"of holistic view of welfare of"},{"startTime":1814.61,"endTime":1820.85,"body":"all individuals."},{"startTime":1821.18,"endTime":1824.15,"body":"Very important points you're"},{"startTime":1821.18,"endTime":1824.15,"body":"making there. And I want to pick"},{"startTime":1824.15,"endTime":1826.64,"body":"your brain more about"},{"startTime":1824.15,"endTime":1826.64,"body":"assessments as well as using"},{"startTime":1826.64,"endTime":1829.37,"body":"stuffed dogs. But first, we're"},{"startTime":1826.64,"endTime":1829.37,"body":"going to hear a word from our"},{"startTime":1829.37,"endTime":1835.64,"body":"sponsors, and we'll be right"},{"startTime":1829.37,"endTime":1835.64,"body":"back. Hey, friends, it's me"},{"startTime":1835.64,"endTime":1838.85,"body":"again. And I hope you are"},{"startTime":1835.64,"endTime":1838.85,"body":"enjoying this episode, you may"},{"startTime":1838.85,"endTime":1841.88,"body":"have figured out that something"},{"startTime":1838.85,"endTime":1841.88,"body":"I deeply care about is helping"},{"startTime":1841.88,"endTime":1845.75,"body":"dogs with aggression issues live"},{"startTime":1841.88,"endTime":1845.75,"body":"less stressful, less confined,"},{"startTime":1845.99,"endTime":1849.44,"body":"more enriched, and overall happy"},{"startTime":1845.99,"endTime":1849.44,"body":"lives with their guardians."},{"startTime":1849.74,"endTime":1852.65,"body":"Aggression is so often"},{"startTime":1849.74,"endTime":1852.65,"body":"misunderstood, and we can change"},{"startTime":1852.65,"endTime":1855.5,"body":"that through continued"},{"startTime":1852.65,"endTime":1855.5,"body":"education, like we received from"},{"startTime":1855.5,"endTime":1858.77,"body":"so many of the wonderful guests"},{"startTime":1855.5,"endTime":1858.77,"body":"on this podcast. In addition to"},{"startTime":1858.77,"endTime":1861.56,"body":"the podcast, I have two other"},{"startTime":1858.77,"endTime":1861.56,"body":"opportunities for anyone looking"},{"startTime":1861.56,"endTime":1864.32,"body":"to learn more about helping dogs"},{"startTime":1861.56,"endTime":1864.32,"body":"with aggression issues, which"},{"startTime":1864.32,"endTime":1866.87,"body":"include the aggression in dogs"},{"startTime":1864.32,"endTime":1866.87,"body":"master course, and the"},{"startTime":1866.87,"endTime":1869.93,"body":"aggression in dogs conference."},{"startTime":1866.87,"endTime":1869.93,"body":"If you want to learn more about"},{"startTime":1869.96,"endTime":1872.54,"body":"the most comprehensive course on"},{"startTime":1869.96,"endTime":1872.54,"body":"aggression taught anywhere in"},{"startTime":1872.54,"endTime":1876.11,"body":"the world, head on over to"},{"startTime":1872.54,"endTime":1876.11,"body":"aggressive dog.com and click on"},{"startTime":1876.11,"endTime":1880.07,"body":"the dog pros tab, and then the"},{"startTime":1876.11,"endTime":1880.07,"body":"master course, the course gives"},{"startTime":1880.07,"endTime":1883.58,"body":"you access to 23 modules on"},{"startTime":1880.07,"endTime":1883.58,"body":"everything from assessment, to"},{"startTime":1883.58,"endTime":1887.48,"body":"safety, to medical issues to the"},{"startTime":1883.58,"endTime":1887.48,"body":"behavior change plans we often"},{"startTime":1887.48,"endTime":1890.6,"body":"use in a number of different"},{"startTime":1887.48,"endTime":1890.6,"body":"cases, including lessons taught"},{"startTime":1890.6,"endTime":1895.01,"body":"by Dr. Chris pockle, Kim Brophy"},{"startTime":1890.6,"endTime":1895.01,"body":"and Jessica Dolce, you also"},{"startTime":1895.01,"endTime":1898.22,"body":"receive access to a private"},{"startTime":1895.01,"endTime":1898.22,"body":"Facebook group with over 1000 of"},{"startTime":1898.22,"endTime":1901.16,"body":"your fellow colleagues, and dog"},{"startTime":1898.22,"endTime":1901.16,"body":"pros all working with aggression"},{"startTime":1901.16,"endTime":1905.18,"body":"cases. After you finish the"},{"startTime":1901.16,"endTime":1905.18,"body":"course, you also gain access to"},{"startTime":1905.18,"endTime":1908.96,"body":"private live group mentor"},{"startTime":1905.18,"endTime":1908.96,"body":"sessions with me, where we"},{"startTime":1908.96,"endTime":1912.23,"body":"practice working through a"},{"startTime":1908.96,"endTime":1912.23,"body":"variety of cases together. And"},{"startTime":1912.23,"endTime":1915.17,"body":"if you need to use we've got you"},{"startTime":1912.23,"endTime":1915.17,"body":"covered. We are approved for"},{"startTime":1915.17,"endTime":1918.23,"body":"just about every major training"},{"startTime":1915.17,"endTime":1918.23,"body":"and behavior credential out"},{"startTime":1918.23,"endTime":1920.93,"body":"there. This is truly the"},{"startTime":1918.23,"endTime":1920.93,"body":"flagship course offered on"},{"startTime":1920.93,"endTime":1924.08,"body":"aggression in dogs, and it's"},{"startTime":1920.93,"endTime":1924.08,"body":"perfect for pet pros that want"},{"startTime":1924.08,"endTime":1927.05,"body":"to set themselves apart and take"},{"startTime":1924.08,"endTime":1927.05,"body":"their knowledge and expertise to"},{"startTime":1927.05,"endTime":1929.81,"body":"the next level are even for pet"},{"startTime":1927.05,"endTime":1929.81,"body":"owners who are seeking"},{"startTime":1929.81,"endTime":1933.08,"body":"information to help their own"},{"startTime":1929.81,"endTime":1933.08,"body":"dog. And don't forget to join me"},{"startTime":1933.08,"endTime":1936.38,"body":"for the third annual aggression"},{"startTime":1933.08,"endTime":1936.38,"body":"in dogs conference either in"},{"startTime":1936.38,"endTime":1939.2,"body":"person or online from"},{"startTime":1936.38,"endTime":1939.2,"body":"Providence, Rhode Island on"},{"startTime":1939.2,"endTime":1943.25,"body":"September 30 Through October"},{"startTime":1939.2,"endTime":1943.25,"body":"2 2022. This year's lineup"},{"startTime":1943.25,"endTime":1945.44,"body":"includes many of the amazing"},{"startTime":1943.25,"endTime":1945.44,"body":"guests you might have heard on"},{"startTime":1945.44,"endTime":1948.83,"body":"the podcast including Suzanne"},{"startTime":1945.44,"endTime":1948.83,"body":"cool the air, Jen Shryock,"},{"startTime":1948.86,"endTime":1953.6,"body":"Simone Mueller, Dr. Amber Batson"},{"startTime":1948.86,"endTime":1953.6,"body":"Kim Brophy, Karissa miroir,"},{"startTime":1953.9,"endTime":1957.44,"body":"Laura Monaco, tirelli, Dr."},{"startTime":1953.9,"endTime":1957.44,"body":"Simone Gadbois, and many more,"},{"startTime":1957.77,"endTime":1960.2,"body":"head on over to aggressive"},{"startTime":1957.77,"endTime":1960.2,"body":"dog.com and click on the"},{"startTime":1960.2,"endTime":1963.47,"body":"conference tab to learn more"},{"startTime":1960.2,"endTime":1963.47,"body":"about the exciting agenda on"},{"startTime":1963.47,"endTime":1966.5,"body":"everything from advanced"},{"startTime":1963.47,"endTime":1966.5,"body":"concepts and leash reactivity to"},{"startTime":1966.5,"endTime":1969.77,"body":"using positive reinforcement to"},{"startTime":1966.5,"endTime":1969.77,"body":"work with predatory behavior."},{"startTime":1970.19,"endTime":1972.83,"body":"And I want to take a moment to"},{"startTime":1970.19,"endTime":1972.83,"body":"thank one of our sponsors for"},{"startTime":1972.83,"endTime":1976.76,"body":"the conference. As a family of"},{"startTime":1972.83,"endTime":1976.76,"body":"world class trainers fenzi Dog"},{"startTime":1976.76,"endTime":1980.12,"body":"Sports Academy provides expert"},{"startTime":1976.76,"endTime":1980.12,"body":"and accessible instruction for"},{"startTime":1980.15,"endTime":1983.12,"body":"competitive dog sports using the"},{"startTime":1980.15,"endTime":1983.12,"body":"most progressive training"},{"startTime":1983.12,"endTime":1985.73,"body":"methods and positive"},{"startTime":1983.12,"endTime":1985.73,"body":"reinforcement techniques."},{"startTime":1985.97,"endTime":1988.64,"body":"Through their online platform."},{"startTime":1985.97,"endTime":1988.64,"body":"Students are able to access"},{"startTime":1988.64,"endTime":1991.88,"body":"Professional dog training No"},{"startTime":1988.64,"endTime":1991.88,"body":"matter your location, or pup"},{"startTime":1991.88,"endTime":1995.69,"body":"skill level. ftsa believes the"},{"startTime":1991.88,"endTime":1995.69,"body":"bond between dog and human is a"},{"startTime":1995.69,"endTime":1998.42,"body":"proud and life changing"},{"startTime":1995.69,"endTime":1998.42,"body":"partnership. And they'll work"},{"startTime":1998.42,"endTime":2001.72,"body":"with you to develop a respectful"},{"startTime":1998.42,"endTime":2001.72,"body":"and kind relationship with your"},{"startTime":2001.72,"endTime":2005.41,"body":"furry best friend. Check out"},{"startTime":2001.72,"endTime":2005.41,"body":"ftsa At fenzi Dog sports"},{"startTime":2005.44,"endTime":2013.72,"body":"academy.com. Alright guys, I'm"},{"startTime":2005.44,"endTime":2013.72,"body":"back with Dr. Victoria cousin."},{"startTime":2013.9,"endTime":2016.84,"body":"And we're talking about"},{"startTime":2013.9,"endTime":2016.84,"body":"assessments for some of these"},{"startTime":2016.84,"endTime":2021.76,"body":"dogs that we are seeing in these"},{"startTime":2016.84,"endTime":2021.76,"body":"cruelty cases and fight busts"},{"startTime":2022.06,"endTime":2026.02,"body":"and the use of stuffed dogs. Now"},{"startTime":2022.06,"endTime":2026.02,"body":"that's another somewhat"},{"startTime":2026.02,"endTime":2028.54,"body":"controversial topic. And I've"},{"startTime":2026.02,"endTime":2028.54,"body":"heard all kinds of differing"},{"startTime":2028.54,"endTime":2030.91,"body":"opinions like oh, you should"},{"startTime":2028.54,"endTime":2030.91,"body":"never use stuffed dogs. So they"},{"startTime":2030.91,"endTime":2033.64,"body":"know it's a stuffed dog versus"},{"startTime":2030.91,"endTime":2033.64,"body":"those are great for doing"},{"startTime":2033.64,"endTime":2037.39,"body":"assessments and decoy work. So I"},{"startTime":2033.64,"endTime":2037.39,"body":"know you talked about it a"},{"startTime":2037.39,"endTime":2039.4,"body":"little bit. You talked about it"},{"startTime":2037.39,"endTime":2039.4,"body":"the aggression in dogs"},{"startTime":2039.4,"endTime":2042.91,"body":"conference, but what are your"},{"startTime":2039.4,"endTime":2042.91,"body":"thoughts now? And any updates on"},{"startTime":2042.91,"endTime":2046.15,"body":"that and using stuffed dogs for"},{"startTime":2042.91,"endTime":2046.15,"body":"assessments in your work?"},{"startTime":2046.63,"endTime":2050.86,"body":"I have so many thoughts. How"},{"startTime":2046.63,"endTime":2050.86,"body":"many hours do we have?"},{"startTime":2052.63,"endTime":2056.98,"body":"We actually have a paper that we"},{"startTime":2052.63,"endTime":2056.98,"body":"have submitted to internal."},{"startTime":2056.98,"endTime":2059.8,"body":"We're currently revising that"},{"startTime":2056.98,"endTime":2059.8,"body":"based on some great reviewer"},{"startTime":2059.8,"endTime":2066.58,"body":"comments. So my background is"},{"startTime":2059.8,"endTime":2066.58,"body":"from the sort of ecological"},{"startTime":2066.7,"endTime":2071.53,"body":"training, right? And so to me,"},{"startTime":2066.7,"endTime":2071.53,"body":"the use of models just makes a"},{"startTime":2071.53,"endTime":2075.58,"body":"lot of sense. We know across a"},{"startTime":2071.53,"endTime":2075.58,"body":"really wide variety of species"},{"startTime":2075.58,"endTime":2080.89,"body":"that models even rudimentary"},{"startTime":2075.58,"endTime":2080.89,"body":"ones are really good at"},{"startTime":2080.89,"endTime":2085.93,"body":"eliciting social behavior and"},{"startTime":2080.89,"endTime":2085.93,"body":"animals. And so if we think back"},{"startTime":2085.93,"endTime":2090.22,"body":"to Tinbergen, right, and that"},{"startTime":2085.93,"endTime":2090.22,"body":"the hearing goals and the very"},{"startTime":2090.22,"endTime":2095.11,"body":"simplistic beak models, right,"},{"startTime":2090.22,"endTime":2095.11,"body":"so they did a whole sort of"},{"startTime":2095.11,"endTime":2098.74,"body":"titration of various different"},{"startTime":2095.11,"endTime":2098.74,"body":"types of models and how"},{"startTime":2098.74,"endTime":2101.47,"body":"realistic they needed to be"},{"startTime":2098.74,"endTime":2101.47,"body":"eaten didn't need to be soft,"},{"startTime":2101.47,"endTime":2104.41,"body":"and did it need to, you know,"},{"startTime":2101.47,"endTime":2104.41,"body":"have the head and did it need to"},{"startTime":2104.41,"endTime":2107.83,"body":"have all these other components"},{"startTime":2104.41,"endTime":2107.83,"body":"and then for that particular"},{"startTime":2107.92,"endTime":2112.81,"body":"behavior to be elicited, it"},{"startTime":2107.92,"endTime":2112.81,"body":"needed stripes and or red spot"},{"startTime":2112.81,"endTime":2115.54,"body":"or whatever it was in a"},{"startTime":2112.81,"endTime":2115.54,"body":"particular spot, right. And so"},{"startTime":2115.54,"endTime":2119.08,"body":"you can do it with like a tongue"},{"startTime":2115.54,"endTime":2119.08,"body":"depressor, practically. So,"},{"startTime":2119.5,"endTime":2124.51,"body":"models don't have to be"},{"startTime":2119.5,"endTime":2124.51,"body":"sophisticated. Obviously, that's"},{"startTime":2124.51,"endTime":2127.42,"body":"going to vary depending on the"},{"startTime":2124.51,"endTime":2127.42,"body":"type of behavior that you're"},{"startTime":2127.42,"endTime":2130.42,"body":"talking about. Right? So in that"},{"startTime":2127.42,"endTime":2130.42,"body":"particular instance, it was"},{"startTime":2130.42,"endTime":2135.61,"body":"begging behavior. It's a very"},{"startTime":2130.42,"endTime":2135.61,"body":"innate behavior, right? Where"},{"startTime":2135.73,"endTime":2140.29,"body":"high stakes, so less learning"},{"startTime":2135.73,"endTime":2140.29,"body":"involved in terms of figuring"},{"startTime":2140.29,"endTime":2144.28,"body":"out how to get food when you're"},{"startTime":2140.29,"endTime":2144.28,"body":"an altricial chick that is, you"},{"startTime":2144.28,"endTime":2149.47,"body":"know, trying to die all the time"},{"startTime":2144.28,"endTime":2149.47,"body":"and needs support from the"},{"startTime":2149.47,"endTime":2155.89,"body":"parent. Then if you track over"},{"startTime":2149.47,"endTime":2155.89,"body":"time models like now, Gail"},{"startTime":2155.89,"endTime":2160.18,"body":"Patra, Sally, who's a researcher"},{"startTime":2155.89,"endTime":2160.18,"body":"at UC Davis, has robotic prairie"},{"startTime":2160.18,"endTime":2166.0,"body":"chickens, I believe, no sage"},{"startTime":2160.18,"endTime":2166.0,"body":"grouse, excuse me that she puts"},{"startTime":2166.0,"endTime":2170.5,"body":"out into a lek, and that really"},{"startTime":2166.0,"endTime":2170.5,"body":"effectively elicits, you know,"},{"startTime":2170.5,"endTime":2178.48,"body":"courtship behavior, right, in in"},{"startTime":2170.5,"endTime":2178.48,"body":"a naturalistic environment. So I"},{"startTime":2179.2,"endTime":2183.04,"body":"will get into the more sort of,"},{"startTime":2179.2,"endTime":2183.04,"body":"I guess, nuanced aspects of the"},{"startTime":2183.04,"endTime":2187.21,"body":"use of models as pertains to"},{"startTime":2183.04,"endTime":2187.21,"body":"social behavior in dogs. But"},{"startTime":2187.21,"endTime":2192.88,"body":"just from a sort of foundational"},{"startTime":2187.21,"endTime":2192.88,"body":"animal behavior methodology"},{"startTime":2192.88,"endTime":2197.92,"body":"perspective, I think the use of"},{"startTime":2192.88,"endTime":2197.92,"body":"models is very well supported in"},{"startTime":2197.92,"endTime":2203.2,"body":"the literature over decades."},{"startTime":2197.92,"endTime":2203.2,"body":"Now, when we talk about models"},{"startTime":2203.29,"endTime":2209.8,"body":"in assessing dog behavior, it's"},{"startTime":2203.29,"endTime":2209.8,"body":"a mixed bag. Right? So it"},{"startTime":2209.8,"endTime":2216.37,"body":"definitely is more"},{"startTime":2209.8,"endTime":2216.37,"body":"controversial. But I think that"},{"startTime":2216.4,"endTime":2223.18,"body":"also pertains to, what are you"},{"startTime":2216.4,"endTime":2223.18,"body":"asking about how the behavior of"},{"startTime":2223.18,"endTime":2229.42,"body":"the model elicits? So in some of"},{"startTime":2223.18,"endTime":2229.42,"body":"the studies, where they found,"},{"startTime":2229.45,"endTime":2233.8,"body":"you know, they report there's a"},{"startTime":2229.45,"endTime":2233.8,"body":"poor correlation between the"},{"startTime":2233.8,"endTime":2237.04,"body":"behavior that was exhibited"},{"startTime":2233.8,"endTime":2237.04,"body":"toward the model dog and the"},{"startTime":2237.04,"endTime":2242.65,"body":"live dog, the model dog in those"},{"startTime":2237.04,"endTime":2242.65,"body":"studies still elicited social"},{"startTime":2242.65,"endTime":2247.63,"body":"behavior. It just maybe was not"},{"startTime":2242.65,"endTime":2247.63,"body":"consistent. So maybe the dog was"},{"startTime":2247.63,"endTime":2253.15,"body":"friendly to the live dog, but"},{"startTime":2247.63,"endTime":2253.15,"body":"they were aggressive to the"},{"startTime":2253.15,"endTime":2258.64,"body":"model dog or vice versa. Right."},{"startTime":2253.15,"endTime":2258.64,"body":"And so that's a slightly"},{"startTime":2258.67,"endTime":2262.57,"body":"different question. It's not"},{"startTime":2258.67,"endTime":2262.57,"body":"Kana model elicit social"},{"startTime":2262.57,"endTime":2267.43,"body":"behavior in dogs, it's will it"},{"startTime":2262.57,"endTime":2267.43,"body":"elicit the same social behavior"},{"startTime":2267.61,"endTime":2272.59,"body":"in dogs? Does that make sense?"},{"startTime":2267.61,"endTime":2272.59,"body":"Absolutely. But then, the way I"},{"startTime":2272.59,"endTime":2276.61,"body":"think about this, is that, why"},{"startTime":2272.59,"endTime":2276.61,"body":"would we expect the behavior to"},{"startTime":2276.61,"endTime":2281.44,"body":"be the same to the model, and to"},{"startTime":2276.61,"endTime":2281.44,"body":"the live dog, if it's just sort"},{"startTime":2281.44,"endTime":2285.25,"body":"of your average run of the mill"},{"startTime":2281.44,"endTime":2285.25,"body":"behavior, right? So it's"},{"startTime":2286.15,"endTime":2292.3,"body":"investigatory, or, you know,"},{"startTime":2286.15,"endTime":2292.3,"body":"greeting or, you know, whatever"},{"startTime":2292.36,"endTime":2298.0,"body":"that behavior is also, obviously"},{"startTime":2292.36,"endTime":2298.0,"body":"influenced by the behavior of"},{"startTime":2298.0,"endTime":2301.69,"body":"the con specific and I think"},{"startTime":2298.0,"endTime":2301.69,"body":"this is where people think that"},{"startTime":2301.69,"endTime":2306.94,"body":"models fall down, right, because"},{"startTime":2301.69,"endTime":2306.94,"body":"they don't move like a con"},{"startTime":2306.94,"endTime":2311.05,"body":"specific would, and they don't,"},{"startTime":2306.94,"endTime":2311.05,"body":"you know, smell like a con"},{"startTime":2311.05,"endTime":2315.19,"body":"specific word. And they don't"},{"startTime":2311.05,"endTime":2315.19,"body":"sound like a live con specific"},{"startTime":2315.19,"endTime":2320.44,"body":"word. And those are all"},{"startTime":2315.19,"endTime":2320.44,"body":"obviously true and good points."},{"startTime":2320.92,"endTime":2326.83,"body":"And we know from the published"},{"startTime":2320.92,"endTime":2326.83,"body":"literature that the size and"},{"startTime":2326.83,"endTime":2334.12,"body":"shape and materials used to make"},{"startTime":2326.83,"endTime":2334.12,"body":"the model can have an impact on"},{"startTime":2334.39,"endTime":2340.15,"body":"how live dogs respond to it,"},{"startTime":2334.39,"endTime":2340.15,"body":"right. And so everything from a"},{"startTime":2340.15,"endTime":2344.11,"body":"little robotic model that you"},{"startTime":2340.15,"endTime":2344.11,"body":"know, was kind of plastic and"},{"startTime":2344.11,"endTime":2348.73,"body":"metal looking. But they covered"},{"startTime":2344.11,"endTime":2348.73,"body":"it and fake fur and looked at"},{"startTime":2348.73,"endTime":2352.72,"body":"how puppies versus adults"},{"startTime":2348.73,"endTime":2352.72,"body":"interacted with it. And two"},{"startTime":2352.72,"endTime":2357.4,"body":"different various makes or"},{"startTime":2352.72,"endTime":2357.4,"body":"models of plastic dogs. So those"},{"startTime":2357.4,"endTime":2362.05,"body":"factors are obviously important."},{"startTime":2357.4,"endTime":2362.05,"body":"And I would say that, yeah, we"},{"startTime":2362.05,"endTime":2367.03,"body":"definitely need more. We need"},{"startTime":2362.05,"endTime":2367.03,"body":"more research into the salient"},{"startTime":2367.03,"endTime":2370.33,"body":"features and characteristics of"},{"startTime":2367.03,"endTime":2370.33,"body":"you know, what makes a good"},{"startTime":2370.36,"endTime":2377.41,"body":"model. And it could be the case"},{"startTime":2370.36,"endTime":2377.41,"body":"that, you know, models aren't"},{"startTime":2377.41,"endTime":2382.0,"body":"going to tell us much about how"},{"startTime":2377.41,"endTime":2382.0,"body":"dogs are going to behave to live"},{"startTime":2382.0,"endTime":2385.66,"body":"dogs, for what I think of is"},{"startTime":2382.0,"endTime":2385.66,"body":"just sort of run of the mill"},{"startTime":2385.84,"endTime":2392.8,"body":"standard behavior. I will say"},{"startTime":2385.84,"endTime":2392.8,"body":"that in the hundreds of dogs"},{"startTime":2392.8,"endTime":2398.56,"body":"from fighting cases that we have"},{"startTime":2392.8,"endTime":2398.56,"body":"used a life size stuffed model"},{"startTime":2398.56,"endTime":2404.08,"body":"so it's more natural Stick, it"},{"startTime":2398.56,"endTime":2404.08,"body":"is a very good screening tool to"},{"startTime":2404.08,"endTime":2408.49,"body":"screen for extreme con specific"},{"startTime":2404.08,"endTime":2408.49,"body":"aggression. Now this to my mind"},{"startTime":2408.49,"endTime":2411.97,"body":"is not your run of the mill"},{"startTime":2408.49,"endTime":2411.97,"body":"behavior, I think it is. And"},{"startTime":2411.97,"endTime":2418.24,"body":"this is me speculating. But in"},{"startTime":2411.97,"endTime":2418.24,"body":"my opinion, my personal opinion,"},{"startTime":2418.75,"endTime":2423.88,"body":"I think that behavior shares"},{"startTime":2418.75,"endTime":2423.88,"body":"more characteristics with"},{"startTime":2423.88,"endTime":2429.13,"body":"something like the herring gold"},{"startTime":2423.88,"endTime":2429.13,"body":"pecking hit the bill, where it's"},{"startTime":2429.58,"endTime":2433.51,"body":"more, I don't, I don't want to"},{"startTime":2429.58,"endTime":2433.51,"body":"say stereotype because that's"},{"startTime":2433.51,"endTime":2439.45,"body":"going to go in be interpreted in"},{"startTime":2433.51,"endTime":2439.45,"body":"the wrong way. But it's, it's"},{"startTime":2439.45,"endTime":2443.5,"body":"more perhaps consistent. It has"},{"startTime":2439.45,"endTime":2443.5,"body":"a lower threshold for"},{"startTime":2443.53,"endTime":2452.8,"body":"elicitation. And it is using"},{"startTime":2443.53,"endTime":2452.8,"body":"less cognitive processing, of"},{"startTime":2453.16,"endTime":2458.5,"body":"integrating across modalities on"},{"startTime":2453.16,"endTime":2458.5,"body":"the part of the dog that's"},{"startTime":2458.5,"endTime":2463.27,"body":"exhibiting that behavior. And I"},{"startTime":2458.5,"endTime":2463.27,"body":"talked about this in the"},{"startTime":2463.27,"endTime":2465.01,"body":"aggression and dogs conference."},{"startTime":2466.48,"endTime":2472.27,"body":"I think that if we look at"},{"startTime":2466.48,"endTime":2472.27,"body":"animal models of human violence,"},{"startTime":2472.3,"endTime":2475.51,"body":"so like the the rodent"},{"startTime":2472.3,"endTime":2475.51,"body":"literature, where they have"},{"startTime":2475.51,"endTime":2481.48,"body":"these impulsive aggression,"},{"startTime":2475.51,"endTime":2481.48,"body":"subjects who develop extreme"},{"startTime":2481.6,"endTime":2489.04,"body":"aggression to conspecifics, that"},{"startTime":2481.6,"endTime":2489.04,"body":"is out of the realm of normalcy,"},{"startTime":2489.04,"endTime":2492.16,"body":"and that it's not dependent on"},{"startTime":2489.04,"endTime":2492.16,"body":"the behavior of the con"},{"startTime":2492.16,"endTime":2496.81,"body":"specific, so they will attack"},{"startTime":2492.16,"endTime":2496.81,"body":"and anesthetized on specific,"},{"startTime":2496.81,"endTime":2501.07,"body":"right, that is not moving, and"},{"startTime":2496.81,"endTime":2501.07,"body":"is not responding to them, they"},{"startTime":2501.07,"endTime":2504.37,"body":"will continue their attack"},{"startTime":2501.07,"endTime":2504.37,"body":"without any reference to what"},{"startTime":2504.37,"endTime":2507.31,"body":"that individual is doing."},{"startTime":2504.37,"endTime":2507.31,"body":"Typically, this is done with"},{"startTime":2507.31,"endTime":2510.91,"body":"males, because they're"},{"startTime":2507.31,"endTime":2510.91,"body":"territorial, these individuals"},{"startTime":2510.91,"endTime":2515.86,"body":"will attack females, which is"},{"startTime":2510.91,"endTime":2515.86,"body":"very unusual. So typically, you"},{"startTime":2515.86,"endTime":2521.8,"body":"don't see aggression for the"},{"startTime":2515.86,"endTime":2521.8,"body":"opposite sex, right. But in"},{"startTime":2521.8,"endTime":2525.07,"body":"these specific individuals, they"},{"startTime":2521.8,"endTime":2525.07,"body":"do they have very short"},{"startTime":2525.07,"endTime":2529.09,"body":"latencies, to start exhibiting"},{"startTime":2525.07,"endTime":2529.09,"body":"the aggression. And they have"},{"startTime":2529.09,"endTime":2534.58,"body":"very high severity of the attack"},{"startTime":2529.09,"endTime":2534.58,"body":"of the aggression, right. And to"},{"startTime":2534.58,"endTime":2537.79,"body":"my mind, there's a lot of"},{"startTime":2534.58,"endTime":2537.79,"body":"parallels between that. And what"},{"startTime":2537.79,"endTime":2541.93,"body":"we see with the fight bred dogs"},{"startTime":2537.79,"endTime":2541.93,"body":"with extreme con specific"},{"startTime":2541.93,"endTime":2546.82,"body":"aggression, where they don't"},{"startTime":2541.93,"endTime":2546.82,"body":"investigate the model, their"},{"startTime":2546.82,"endTime":2552.13,"body":"latency to attack is very short."},{"startTime":2546.82,"endTime":2552.13,"body":"And it does not seem to matter,"},{"startTime":2552.61,"endTime":2556.12,"body":"that the model is not moving"},{"startTime":2552.61,"endTime":2556.12,"body":"right during the attack, where"},{"startTime":2556.15,"endTime":2561.46,"body":"they might have to be broken off"},{"startTime":2556.15,"endTime":2561.46,"body":"the model, because they're just"},{"startTime":2561.46,"endTime":2569.11,"body":"gripping and versus individuals"},{"startTime":2561.46,"endTime":2569.11,"body":"that approach the model showing"},{"startTime":2569.14,"endTime":2574.78,"body":"social behaviors. So we see"},{"startTime":2569.14,"endTime":2574.78,"body":"active submission, you know,"},{"startTime":2574.78,"endTime":2578.17,"body":"with like wiggly waggly, you"},{"startTime":2574.78,"endTime":2578.17,"body":"know, loose back and tail"},{"startTime":2578.17,"endTime":2582.19,"body":"sniffing the muzzle sniffing the"},{"startTime":2578.17,"endTime":2582.19,"body":"in a genital region. And then"},{"startTime":2582.19,"endTime":2587.11,"body":"the dogs seem to be integrating"},{"startTime":2582.19,"endTime":2587.11,"body":"these other signals from"},{"startTime":2587.11,"endTime":2591.13,"body":"different modalities. So the"},{"startTime":2587.11,"endTime":2591.13,"body":"smell and the, again, this is"},{"startTime":2591.13,"endTime":2595.3,"body":"speculation on my part, but you"},{"startTime":2591.13,"endTime":2595.3,"body":"know, the olfactory and other"},{"startTime":2595.3,"endTime":2599.71,"body":"signals, and they're like, oh,"},{"startTime":2595.3,"endTime":2599.71,"body":"they come up, they're social,"},{"startTime":2600.13,"endTime":2604.39,"body":"they investigate, they sniff,"},{"startTime":2600.13,"endTime":2604.39,"body":"and then they lose interest. And"},{"startTime":2604.39,"endTime":2611.68,"body":"so it seems as though there are"},{"startTime":2604.39,"endTime":2611.68,"body":"two different types of social"},{"startTime":2611.68,"endTime":2617.38,"body":"behavior. They're like one is"},{"startTime":2611.68,"endTime":2617.38,"body":"very low bar for elicitation and"},{"startTime":2617.89,"endTime":2622.21,"body":"refractory to information from"},{"startTime":2617.89,"endTime":2622.21,"body":"the environment. And the other"},{"startTime":2622.21,"endTime":2626.5,"body":"is like what we think of as sort"},{"startTime":2622.21,"endTime":2626.5,"body":"of normal social behavior. And"},{"startTime":2626.5,"endTime":2631.87,"body":"that tracks well, with reports"},{"startTime":2626.5,"endTime":2631.87,"body":"in the literature from the use"},{"startTime":2631.87,"endTime":2635.92,"body":"of models in, like that study I"},{"startTime":2631.87,"endTime":2635.92,"body":"mentioned with the robotic dogs"},{"startTime":2635.92,"endTime":2639.46,"body":"where they would see"},{"startTime":2635.92,"endTime":2639.46,"body":"investigation and then kind of"},{"startTime":2639.46,"endTime":2643.03,"body":"loss of interest. Sorry, that"},{"startTime":2639.46,"endTime":2643.03,"body":"was a long winded answer."},{"startTime":2643.39,"endTime":2647.98,"body":"No, it's because it's great"},{"startTime":2643.39,"endTime":2647.98,"body":"because it really helps me kind"},{"startTime":2647.98,"endTime":2652.54,"body":"of unpack when in what you would"},{"startTime":2647.98,"endTime":2652.54,"body":"use the stuffed dogs for as well"},{"startTime":2652.54,"endTime":2656.11,"body":"as what kind of knowing what to"},{"startTime":2652.54,"endTime":2656.11,"body":"look for. So you mentioned sort"},{"startTime":2656.11,"endTime":2659.44,"body":"of the intensity or the"},{"startTime":2656.11,"endTime":2659.44,"body":"impulsivity of the behavior."},{"startTime":2659.92,"endTime":2662.8,"body":"I've seen this actually where"},{"startTime":2659.92,"endTime":2662.8,"body":"sometimes somebody will adopt a"},{"startTime":2662.8,"endTime":2665.29,"body":"dog and they have no idea what"},{"startTime":2662.8,"endTime":2665.29,"body":"the dog is like with other dogs."},{"startTime":2665.29,"endTime":2667.96,"body":"So they will say, you know, he's"},{"startTime":2665.29,"endTime":2667.96,"body":"barking, lunging at other dogs,"},{"startTime":2667.96,"endTime":2670.12,"body":"and I'll go through the history"},{"startTime":2667.96,"endTime":2670.12,"body":"of like, what what is your dog"},{"startTime":2670.12,"endTime":2672.7,"body":"do with other dogs or when it"},{"startTime":2670.12,"endTime":2672.7,"body":"meets other dogs and they'll be"},{"startTime":2672.7,"endTime":2676.45,"body":"like, I have no idea because we"},{"startTime":2672.7,"endTime":2676.45,"body":"just got the dog so you can"},{"startTime":2676.45,"endTime":2680.41,"body":"sometimes use a stuffed dog to"},{"startTime":2676.45,"endTime":2680.41,"body":"assess just to get that initial"},{"startTime":2680.41,"endTime":2684.19,"body":"information. And so there have"},{"startTime":2680.41,"endTime":2684.19,"body":"been cases where the dog will"},{"startTime":2684.25,"endTime":2688.54,"body":"just immediate soon as"},{"startTime":2684.25,"endTime":2688.54,"body":"immediately closing distance are"},{"startTime":2688.54,"endTime":2691.63,"body":"getting close to that stuffed"},{"startTime":2688.54,"endTime":2691.63,"body":"dog. It's a full on bites hold"},{"startTime":2691.63,"endTime":2696.04,"body":"shake pattern, very intense."},{"startTime":2691.63,"endTime":2696.04,"body":"Those are rare cases. I will"},{"startTime":2696.07,"endTime":2698.41,"body":"make sure I don't want to scare"},{"startTime":2696.07,"endTime":2698.41,"body":"anybody out of getting dogs and"},{"startTime":2698.41,"endTime":2703.45,"body":"using or adopting dogs. But then"},{"startTime":2698.41,"endTime":2703.45,"body":"the other cases are all kind of"},{"startTime":2703.45,"endTime":2706.57,"body":"goes up and investigates and"},{"startTime":2703.45,"endTime":2706.57,"body":"smelling the dog and you might"},{"startTime":2706.6,"endTime":2709.96,"body":"move the stuffed dog a little"},{"startTime":2706.6,"endTime":2709.96,"body":"bit. And there's a little bit of"},{"startTime":2709.96,"endTime":2713.26,"body":"fear based responses and maybe a"},{"startTime":2709.96,"endTime":2713.26,"body":"quick snap or something like"},{"startTime":2713.26,"endTime":2716.59,"body":"that towards that stuffed dog."},{"startTime":2713.26,"endTime":2716.59,"body":"And there's where I can see what"},{"startTime":2716.59,"endTime":2718.72,"body":"the arguments come in. We're"},{"startTime":2716.59,"endTime":2718.72,"body":"saying, well, we it's baby,"},{"startTime":2718.72,"endTime":2721.9,"body":"because it's a strange thing or"},{"startTime":2718.72,"endTime":2721.9,"body":"startling or novel to that"},{"startTime":2721.9,"endTime":2725.02,"body":"particular dog. However, the"},{"startTime":2721.9,"endTime":2725.02,"body":"cases you're talking about where"},{"startTime":2725.02,"endTime":2728.23,"body":"it's full on, I'm going to heat"},{"startTime":2725.02,"endTime":2728.23,"body":"seeking missile towards that"},{"startTime":2728.23,"endTime":2731.47,"body":"stuffed dog that can give us a"},{"startTime":2728.23,"endTime":2731.47,"body":"lot of information. And so in"},{"startTime":2731.47,"endTime":2733.6,"body":"that regard, if you see that"},{"startTime":2731.47,"endTime":2733.6,"body":"when you're doing your"},{"startTime":2733.6,"endTime":2737.47,"body":"assessments, let's say your team"},{"startTime":2733.6,"endTime":2737.47,"body":"is out there, do you use stuffed"},{"startTime":2737.47,"endTime":2741.4,"body":"dog as part of the overall"},{"startTime":2737.47,"endTime":2741.4,"body":"assessment or and you take that"},{"startTime":2741.4,"endTime":2743.86,"body":"information, if you see that"},{"startTime":2741.4,"endTime":2743.86,"body":"sort of intense behavior?"},{"startTime":2744.609,"endTime":2749.859,"body":"Yeah, so we do use the stuffed"},{"startTime":2744.609,"endTime":2749.859,"body":"dog as part of our behavior"},{"startTime":2749.859,"endTime":2753.189,"body":"assessment that we do three days"},{"startTime":2749.859,"endTime":2753.189,"body":"after intake to allow them to"},{"startTime":2753.189,"endTime":2757.149,"body":"settle into the shelter"},{"startTime":2753.189,"endTime":2757.149,"body":"environment, we follow that to"},{"startTime":2757.149,"endTime":2761.229,"body":"when they the animals first come"},{"startTime":2757.149,"endTime":2761.229,"body":"in, they're under a quarantine."},{"startTime":2761.259,"endTime":2765.189,"body":"So we can't have them"},{"startTime":2761.259,"endTime":2765.189,"body":"interacting with other live"},{"startTime":2765.189,"endTime":2768.279,"body":"conspecifics. Until that"},{"startTime":2765.189,"endTime":2768.279,"body":"Quarantine is lifted. That's"},{"startTime":2768.279,"endTime":2772.419,"body":"usually a few days after we do"},{"startTime":2768.279,"endTime":2772.419,"body":"most of the assessment. And then"},{"startTime":2772.449,"endTime":2778.929,"body":"for many dogs, we will do follow"},{"startTime":2772.449,"endTime":2778.929,"body":"up live dog testing, so Dog Dog"},{"startTime":2778.929,"endTime":2782.889,"body":"testing, and that's a"},{"startTime":2778.929,"endTime":2782.889,"body":"progression again of through a"},{"startTime":2782.889,"endTime":2788.919,"body":"barrier at a distance in close"},{"startTime":2782.889,"endTime":2788.919,"body":"proximity, all of that prior to"},{"startTime":2789.009,"endTime":2794.139,"body":"allowing the dogs into"},{"startTime":2789.009,"endTime":2794.139,"body":"playgroup, for example. And for"},{"startTime":2794.139,"endTime":2798.189,"body":"that, if there are still"},{"startTime":2794.139,"endTime":2798.189,"body":"questions they might do a"},{"startTime":2798.189,"endTime":2803.379,"body":"modified playgroup with"},{"startTime":2798.189,"endTime":2803.379,"body":"additional safety controls"},{"startTime":2803.559,"endTime":2809.379,"body":"draglines and, or even muscles"},{"startTime":2803.559,"endTime":2809.379,"body":"in certain cases. So it's really"},{"startTime":2810.039,"endTime":2814.239,"body":"giving the animals as many"},{"startTime":2810.039,"endTime":2814.239,"body":"opportunities as possible. In"},{"startTime":2814.239,"endTime":2818.169,"body":"the case of egregious"},{"startTime":2814.239,"endTime":2818.169,"body":"aggression, we don't do further"},{"startTime":2818.169,"endTime":2822.369,"body":"testing with wild dogs, I think"},{"startTime":2818.169,"endTime":2822.369,"body":"there's you know, the, you also"},{"startTime":2822.369,"endTime":2825.459,"body":"have to think, again, about this"},{"startTime":2822.369,"endTime":2825.459,"body":"holistic component of welfare."},{"startTime":2825.879,"endTime":2834.789,"body":"So subjecting dog friendly dog"},{"startTime":2825.879,"endTime":2834.789,"body":"to AB, extremely aggressive"},{"startTime":2834.789,"endTime":2839.349,"body":"dogs, even if their muzzle you"},{"startTime":2834.789,"endTime":2839.349,"body":"know, what psychological or"},{"startTime":2839.349,"endTime":2843.969,"body":"behavioral damage are you doing"},{"startTime":2839.349,"endTime":2843.969,"body":"on your, your friendly helper"},{"startTime":2843.969,"endTime":2848.889,"body":"dog, right, because very often,"},{"startTime":2843.969,"endTime":2848.889,"body":"you might not have a whole bunch"},{"startTime":2848.889,"endTime":2852.309,"body":"of helper dogs available, right."},{"startTime":2848.889,"endTime":2852.309,"body":"So you might be calling on one"},{"startTime":2852.309,"endTime":2856.629,"body":"or two individuals to do a lot"},{"startTime":2852.309,"endTime":2856.629,"body":"of the dog dog testing. And then"},{"startTime":2856.659,"endTime":2862.209,"body":"also just a safety issue. And so"},{"startTime":2856.659,"endTime":2862.209,"body":"the paper that I mentioned, that"},{"startTime":2862.299,"endTime":2869.289,"body":"is currently submitted that"},{"startTime":2862.299,"endTime":2869.289,"body":"specific case, which involved"},{"startTime":2869.289,"endTime":2874.689,"body":"almost 300 dogs, they did do"},{"startTime":2869.289,"endTime":2874.689,"body":"live dog testing with all of the"},{"startTime":2874.689,"endTime":2878.799,"body":"dogs and regardless of the"},{"startTime":2874.689,"endTime":2878.799,"body":"behavior toward the model dog,"},{"startTime":2878.799,"endTime":2882.339,"body":"because that the whole point was"},{"startTime":2878.799,"endTime":2882.339,"body":"to validate the use of the model"},{"startTime":2882.339,"endTime":2888.099,"body":"dog. And we found very high"},{"startTime":2882.339,"endTime":2888.099,"body":"correlation between those dogs."},{"startTime":2888.099,"endTime":2893.259,"body":"So there was good if they were"},{"startTime":2888.099,"endTime":2893.259,"body":"aggressive to the model, the"},{"startTime":2893.259,"endTime":2896.619,"body":"vast majority of those dogs were"},{"startTime":2893.259,"endTime":2896.619,"body":"also aggressive to the live"},{"startTime":2896.619,"endTime":2903.399,"body":"conspecifics and later testing."},{"startTime":2896.619,"endTime":2903.399,"body":"So it's a balance for sure. And"},{"startTime":2903.399,"endTime":2908.619,"body":"I'm sure people have differing"},{"startTime":2903.399,"endTime":2908.619,"body":"opinions about where their risk"},{"startTime":2908.619,"endTime":2913.329,"body":"assessment or tolerance would"},{"startTime":2908.619,"endTime":2913.329,"body":"lie in either direction. But I"},{"startTime":2913.329,"endTime":2918.219,"body":"would say that we do a very, I"},{"startTime":2913.329,"endTime":2918.219,"body":"think, good job at balancing it."},{"startTime":2918.279,"endTime":2921.819,"body":"And is it perfect? No, nothing"},{"startTime":2918.279,"endTime":2921.819,"body":"is perfect."},{"startTime":2921.85,"endTime":2925.69,"body":"Right. Right. And I, I think"},{"startTime":2921.85,"endTime":2925.69,"body":"further along those lines, you"},{"startTime":2925.69,"endTime":2930.31,"body":"know, with the recent updates"},{"startTime":2925.69,"endTime":2930.31,"body":"that have been made to how we"},{"startTime":2930.31,"endTime":2935.23,"body":"assess animals and how we assess"},{"startTime":2930.31,"endTime":2935.23,"body":"dogs in not only the sheltering"},{"startTime":2935.23,"endTime":2937.6,"body":"world, but just you know, as"},{"startTime":2935.23,"endTime":2937.6,"body":"trainers, certainly"},{"startTime":2937.72,"endTime":2940.36,"body":"extrapolating some of the"},{"startTime":2937.72,"endTime":2940.36,"body":"information we are seeing from"},{"startTime":2940.36,"endTime":2945.01,"body":"some of the assessments and not"},{"startTime":2940.36,"endTime":2945.01,"body":"just to take only one look, or"},{"startTime":2945.01,"endTime":2948.31,"body":"one aspect is to form a much"},{"startTime":2945.01,"endTime":2948.31,"body":"more robust picture about an"},{"startTime":2948.31,"endTime":2951.25,"body":"animal's behavior through"},{"startTime":2948.31,"endTime":2951.25,"body":"history, taking through that"},{"startTime":2951.25,"endTime":2955.24,"body":"assessment through his stuffed"},{"startTime":2951.25,"endTime":2955.24,"body":"dog through foster and shelter"},{"startTime":2955.24,"endTime":2959.05,"body":"handler observations, all that"},{"startTime":2955.24,"endTime":2959.05,"body":"will will give us a much better"},{"startTime":2959.05,"endTime":2962.56,"body":"picture of the dog before we"},{"startTime":2959.05,"endTime":2962.56,"body":"make final decisions, right."},{"startTime":2963.61,"endTime":2968.5,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I would say in the"},{"startTime":2963.61,"endTime":2968.5,"body":"vast majority of applications,"},{"startTime":2968.98,"endTime":2972.91,"body":"if you're using a stuffed dog at"},{"startTime":2968.98,"endTime":2972.91,"body":"all, that's going to be a small"},{"startTime":2972.91,"endTime":2977.5,"body":"kernel of information, as you"},{"startTime":2972.91,"endTime":2977.5,"body":"said, in a larger picture that's"},{"startTime":2977.5,"endTime":2980.11,"body":"coming from multiple different"},{"startTime":2977.5,"endTime":2980.11,"body":"sources."},{"startTime":2981.01,"endTime":2983.62,"body":"Yeah, I think that's one of the"},{"startTime":2981.01,"endTime":2983.62,"body":"misconceptions too, right. Is"},{"startTime":2983.62,"endTime":2985.66,"body":"that Oh, are we just going to"},{"startTime":2983.62,"endTime":2985.66,"body":"test a stuffed dog? And that's"},{"startTime":2985.66,"endTime":2987.79,"body":"it? No, it's the one thing that"},{"startTime":2985.66,"endTime":2987.79,"body":"we're going to do to decide a"},{"startTime":2987.79,"endTime":2991.48,"body":"dog's fate. And that's not true"},{"startTime":2987.79,"endTime":2991.48,"body":"in the vast majority of cases."},{"startTime":2991.84,"endTime":2997.9,"body":"For sure. Yeah. And so, as a"},{"startTime":2991.84,"endTime":2997.9,"body":"scientist, I have so many like,"},{"startTime":2998.26,"endTime":3000.0,"body":"these would be really"},{"startTime":2998.26,"endTime":3000.0,"body":"interesting questions to ask."},{"startTime":3000.0,"endTime":3005.76,"body":"us. But then we also, obviously"},{"startTime":3000.0,"endTime":3005.76,"body":"are all limited in terms of"},{"startTime":3005.82,"endTime":3009.48,"body":"resources. And also everyone's"},{"startTime":3005.82,"endTime":3009.48,"body":"trying to ask the most important"},{"startTime":3009.48,"endTime":3012.96,"body":"questions that are going to"},{"startTime":3009.48,"endTime":3012.96,"body":"benefit the animals the most."},{"startTime":3013.41,"endTime":3019.83,"body":"But I will just say that I think"},{"startTime":3013.41,"endTime":3019.83,"body":"there is, in my view, an overly"},{"startTime":3019.83,"endTime":3024.03,"body":"certain stance that people have,"},{"startTime":3019.83,"endTime":3024.03,"body":"in terms of this question has"},{"startTime":3024.03,"endTime":3027.6,"body":"been asked and answered about"},{"startTime":3024.03,"endTime":3027.6,"body":"the use of model dogs and them"},{"startTime":3027.6,"endTime":3032.43,"body":"not being useful for your"},{"startTime":3027.6,"endTime":3032.43,"body":"average shelter dog. Right. And"},{"startTime":3032.43,"endTime":3037.11,"body":"I think that, as a scientist, I"},{"startTime":3032.43,"endTime":3037.11,"body":"would push back on that a bit"},{"startTime":3037.11,"endTime":3042.93,"body":"and say that we have certainly,"},{"startTime":3037.11,"endTime":3042.93,"body":"we have papers that indicate"},{"startTime":3042.93,"endTime":3045.78,"body":"that may be the case. And I'm"},{"startTime":3042.93,"endTime":3045.78,"body":"not saying it's not the case."},{"startTime":3046.38,"endTime":3050.61,"body":"But it's really hard when you're"},{"startTime":3046.38,"endTime":3050.61,"body":"talking about small, small"},{"startTime":3050.61,"endTime":3053.73,"body":"sample sizes that are"},{"startTime":3050.61,"endTime":3053.73,"body":"heterogeneous. So you have"},{"startTime":3053.73,"endTime":3058.17,"body":"different ages, different sexes,"},{"startTime":3053.73,"endTime":3058.17,"body":"different backgrounds, right,"},{"startTime":3058.17,"endTime":3062.19,"body":"that makes it hard to it's going"},{"startTime":3058.17,"endTime":3062.19,"body":"to introduce variability. And"},{"startTime":3062.19,"endTime":3066.27,"body":"anytime you have variability and"},{"startTime":3062.19,"endTime":3066.27,"body":"a small sample size, it makes it"},{"startTime":3066.3,"endTime":3069.96,"body":"a lot harder to have really firm"},{"startTime":3066.3,"endTime":3069.96,"body":"conclusions that you can"},{"startTime":3069.96,"endTime":3074.91,"body":"extrapolate to all the dogs"},{"startTime":3069.96,"endTime":3074.91,"body":"right everywhere. And I think,"},{"startTime":3075.39,"endTime":3079.02,"body":"and again, I'm coming at it from"},{"startTime":3075.39,"endTime":3079.02,"body":"thinking about aggression,"},{"startTime":3079.02,"endTime":3081.54,"body":"because that's just where my"},{"startTime":3079.02,"endTime":3081.54,"body":"brain lives most of the time."},{"startTime":3081.78,"endTime":3084.72,"body":"But in a lot of their studies,"},{"startTime":3081.78,"endTime":3084.72,"body":"you had really low levels of"},{"startTime":3084.72,"endTime":3088.56,"body":"aggression, right. And so, to my"},{"startTime":3084.72,"endTime":3088.56,"body":"mind, it's still an open"},{"startTime":3088.56,"endTime":3093.66,"body":"question it would be, I think,"},{"startTime":3088.56,"endTime":3093.66,"body":"it's fantastic for a group to"},{"startTime":3093.66,"endTime":3099.48,"body":"take average pet dogs that are"},{"startTime":3093.66,"endTime":3099.48,"body":"known to be extremely common,"},{"startTime":3099.48,"endTime":3103.35,"body":"specifically aggressive, and"},{"startTime":3099.48,"endTime":3103.35,"body":"test them like a large sample"},{"startTime":3103.35,"endTime":3108.48,"body":"size, with a model dog to see if"},{"startTime":3103.35,"endTime":3108.48,"body":"you get a similar correlation to"},{"startTime":3108.48,"endTime":3112.11,"body":"what we're seeing with the fight"},{"startTime":3108.48,"endTime":3112.11,"body":"redpolls. And it would also just"},{"startTime":3112.11,"endTime":3115.47,"body":"be really nice to look for, in"},{"startTime":3112.11,"endTime":3115.47,"body":"terms of the other standard"},{"startTime":3115.47,"endTime":3120.42,"body":"normal social behavior, larger"},{"startTime":3115.47,"endTime":3120.42,"body":"sample sizes that are more"},{"startTime":3120.51,"endTime":3124.86,"body":"homogeneous, which again, it's"},{"startTime":3120.51,"endTime":3124.86,"body":"really hard to do and shelter"},{"startTime":3124.86,"endTime":3128.25,"body":"research, I'm not saying that it"},{"startTime":3124.86,"endTime":3128.25,"body":"ever will be done, I would love"},{"startTime":3128.25,"endTime":3132.93,"body":"to see it be done. And so, to my"},{"startTime":3128.25,"endTime":3132.93,"body":"mind, I think the jury is still"},{"startTime":3132.93,"endTime":3139.05,"body":"out in terms of, can we use"},{"startTime":3132.93,"endTime":3139.05,"body":"model dogs as a screening tool."},{"startTime":3139.11,"endTime":3144.24,"body":"And this again, these are two"},{"startTime":3139.11,"endTime":3144.24,"body":"different things you are have a"},{"startTime":3144.24,"endTime":3147.78,"body":"tool that you're using to screen"},{"startTime":3144.24,"endTime":3147.78,"body":"for specific behaviors, I think"},{"startTime":3147.78,"endTime":3150.81,"body":"of it as a smoke detector, the"},{"startTime":3147.78,"endTime":3150.81,"body":"smoke detector will tell you if"},{"startTime":3150.81,"endTime":3153.54,"body":"there's smoke in your house, it"},{"startTime":3150.81,"endTime":3153.54,"body":"won't tell you if your house"},{"startTime":3153.54,"endTime":3157.05,"body":"will have a fire in 10 years or"},{"startTime":3153.54,"endTime":3157.05,"body":"five years. It's not"},{"startTime":3157.05,"endTime":3162.99,"body":"prognosticating the future. And"},{"startTime":3157.05,"endTime":3162.99,"body":"so again, it's are we using"},{"startTime":3163.02,"endTime":3166.83,"body":"model dogs to screen for"},{"startTime":3163.02,"endTime":3166.83,"body":"specific behaviors? Or are we"},{"startTime":3166.83,"endTime":3170.34,"body":"using model dogs to predict"},{"startTime":3166.83,"endTime":3170.34,"body":"what's going to happen in the"},{"startTime":3170.34,"endTime":3173.82,"body":"home and five years, and those"},{"startTime":3170.34,"endTime":3173.82,"body":"are or a year from now or six"},{"startTime":3173.82,"endTime":3175.86,"body":"months from now? Right? In a"},{"startTime":3173.82,"endTime":3175.86,"body":"different environment with"},{"startTime":3175.86,"endTime":3179.1,"body":"different circumstances? Those"},{"startTime":3175.86,"endTime":3179.1,"body":"are very different things. And"},{"startTime":3179.1,"endTime":3182.22,"body":"so just because my smoke"},{"startTime":3179.1,"endTime":3182.22,"body":"detector doesn't tell me my"},{"startTime":3182.22,"endTime":3185.76,"body":"house is gonna burn down next"},{"startTime":3182.22,"endTime":3185.76,"body":"year, it doesn't mean that it's"},{"startTime":3185.76,"endTime":3188.76,"body":"faulty. Right, it will tell me"},{"startTime":3185.76,"endTime":3188.76,"body":"if there's smoke in my house"},{"startTime":3188.76,"endTime":3190.77,"body":"today. Does that make sense?"},{"startTime":3188.76,"endTime":3190.77,"body":"Such a"},{"startTime":3190.77,"endTime":3194.43,"body":"great analogy. I love that"},{"startTime":3190.77,"endTime":3194.43,"body":"analogy. So well done. And, you"},{"startTime":3194.43,"endTime":3197.67,"body":"know, I would love to shift"},{"startTime":3194.43,"endTime":3197.67,"body":"gears to because the work you"},{"startTime":3197.67,"endTime":3200.94,"body":"do, certainly as you have the"},{"startTime":3197.67,"endTime":3200.94,"body":"pressure from both sides, we're"},{"startTime":3200.94,"endTime":3204.78,"body":"talking about, you see kind of"},{"startTime":3200.94,"endTime":3204.78,"body":"the worst of human behavior"},{"startTime":3204.78,"endTime":3208.77,"body":"towards animals and your work."},{"startTime":3204.78,"endTime":3208.77,"body":"So there must be something in"},{"startTime":3208.77,"endTime":3211.83,"body":"the water at the ASPCA to"},{"startTime":3208.77,"endTime":3211.83,"body":"because everybody I've met is"},{"startTime":3211.83,"endTime":3216.57,"body":"just, they have this sense of"},{"startTime":3211.83,"endTime":3216.57,"body":"calm and sense of resiliency to"},{"startTime":3216.57,"endTime":3219.39,"body":"this and being able to handle"},{"startTime":3216.57,"endTime":3219.39,"body":"seeing the worst happened to"},{"startTime":3219.39,"endTime":3223.83,"body":"animals. And I'm sure the"},{"startTime":3219.39,"endTime":3223.83,"body":"pictures and that the cases and"},{"startTime":3223.83,"endTime":3227.4,"body":"the animals that you work with"},{"startTime":3223.83,"endTime":3227.4,"body":"are in some of the worst"},{"startTime":3227.43,"endTime":3231.69,"body":"horrific conditions and be able"},{"startTime":3227.43,"endTime":3231.69,"body":"to go back to work the next day."},{"startTime":3231.87,"endTime":3234.57,"body":"And so I'd love to know, I think"},{"startTime":3231.87,"endTime":3234.57,"body":"this will be very helpful for"},{"startTime":3234.57,"endTime":3238.2,"body":"the listeners, I do a lot of"},{"startTime":3234.57,"endTime":3238.2,"body":"work with aggression cases, or"},{"startTime":3238.23,"endTime":3242.49,"body":"rescue or sheltering. And what"},{"startTime":3238.23,"endTime":3242.49,"body":"keeps you going? What allows you"},{"startTime":3242.49,"endTime":3246.12,"body":"to continue to, you know, how do"},{"startTime":3242.49,"endTime":3246.12,"body":"you cope with those things?"},{"startTime":3246.18,"endTime":3247.14,"body":"Yeah. So"},{"startTime":3247.44,"endTime":3251.4,"body":"yeah, it's a it's really great"},{"startTime":3247.44,"endTime":3251.4,"body":"question. And I think it"},{"startTime":3251.4,"endTime":3256.2,"body":"probably varies for different"},{"startTime":3251.4,"endTime":3256.2,"body":"individuals at the organization"},{"startTime":3256.2,"endTime":3263.07,"body":"in terms of coping mechanism and"},{"startTime":3256.2,"endTime":3263.07,"body":"what works for them. And I guess"},{"startTime":3263.07,"endTime":3266.61,"body":"I would bring it back to this"},{"startTime":3263.07,"endTime":3266.61,"body":"holistic view, which I think is"},{"startTime":3266.61,"endTime":3272.67,"body":"super important. So you have an"},{"startTime":3266.61,"endTime":3272.67,"body":"organization that is full of"},{"startTime":3272.67,"endTime":3278.49,"body":"like super talented people in"},{"startTime":3272.67,"endTime":3278.49,"body":"many different professions that"},{"startTime":3278.52,"endTime":3281.73,"body":"could be off somewhere making"},{"startTime":3278.52,"endTime":3281.73,"body":"more money, you know, like"},{"startTime":3281.73,"endTime":3286.92,"body":"lawyers and bets and like,"},{"startTime":3281.73,"endTime":3286.92,"body":"behaviors and all the things and"},{"startTime":3286.92,"endTime":3294.21,"body":"they've chosen to kind of all"},{"startTime":3286.92,"endTime":3294.21,"body":"work together for a common goal"},{"startTime":3294.21,"endTime":3298.71,"body":"of helping animals and, you"},{"startTime":3294.21,"endTime":3298.71,"body":"know, I know that nonprofits get"},{"startTime":3298.71,"endTime":3303.18,"body":"flack for various reasons. And"},{"startTime":3298.71,"endTime":3303.18,"body":"again, nobody's perfect, and no"},{"startTime":3303.18,"endTime":3306.33,"body":"organization is perfect. But I"},{"startTime":3303.18,"endTime":3306.33,"body":"think that he does a really good"},{"startTime":3306.33,"endTime":3312.12,"body":"job of investing in people that"},{"startTime":3306.33,"endTime":3312.12,"body":"are very qualified and good at"},{"startTime":3312.12,"endTime":3318.78,"body":"what they do. And like, that is,"},{"startTime":3312.12,"endTime":3318.78,"body":"I think, just inspirational to"},{"startTime":3318.78,"endTime":3322.32,"body":"watch, like, you kind of get"},{"startTime":3318.78,"endTime":3322.32,"body":"inspired by your coworkers"},{"startTime":3322.32,"endTime":3325.92,"body":"because you see what they're"},{"startTime":3322.32,"endTime":3325.92,"body":"doing. And you're like, oh,"},{"startTime":3326.19,"endTime":3329.64,"body":"yeah, you want to live up to"},{"startTime":3326.19,"endTime":3329.64,"body":"what they're doing. But you're"},{"startTime":3329.64,"endTime":3335.58,"body":"also honestly, like, you see the"},{"startTime":3329.64,"endTime":3335.58,"body":"best of humanity, right? So you"},{"startTime":3335.58,"endTime":3344.1,"body":"see, it's this balance of, you"},{"startTime":3335.58,"endTime":3344.1,"body":"see how badly one individual can"},{"startTime":3344.1,"endTime":3350.13,"body":"impact dozens or hundreds of"},{"startTime":3344.1,"endTime":3350.13,"body":"animals lives. And that's"},{"startTime":3350.16,"endTime":3355.92,"body":"heartbreaking. But then you see"},{"startTime":3350.16,"endTime":3355.92,"body":"hundreds of individuals pulling"},{"startTime":3355.92,"endTime":3361.29,"body":"together to help those animals."},{"startTime":3355.92,"endTime":3361.29,"body":"And it kind of reaffirms your"},{"startTime":3361.29,"endTime":3365.07,"body":"belief in humanity, like the,"},{"startTime":3361.29,"endTime":3365.07,"body":"the good people outweigh the"},{"startTime":3365.07,"endTime":3370.35,"body":"bad. It's sucks that the bad"},{"startTime":3365.07,"endTime":3370.35,"body":"people can have such an outsized"},{"startTime":3370.35,"endTime":3377.22,"body":"influence with what they do. But"},{"startTime":3370.35,"endTime":3377.22,"body":"I really believe in humanity, I"},{"startTime":3377.22,"endTime":3379.71,"body":"think there are definitely more"},{"startTime":3377.22,"endTime":3379.71,"body":"good people than bad in the"},{"startTime":3379.71,"endTime":3385.53,"body":"world. And then, I mean, there"},{"startTime":3379.71,"endTime":3385.53,"body":"are definitely days where you go"},{"startTime":3385.53,"endTime":3390.36,"body":"back to your hotel room, you"},{"startTime":3385.53,"endTime":3390.36,"body":"just cry, or you call your dog"},{"startTime":3390.36,"endTime":3396.48,"body":"sitter, and you're like, hug my"},{"startTime":3390.36,"endTime":3396.48,"body":"dog for me. Because it's, it's"},{"startTime":3396.48,"endTime":3400.95,"body":"hard, right? It's super hard."},{"startTime":3396.48,"endTime":3400.95,"body":"But the animals themselves and"},{"startTime":3400.95,"endTime":3407.94,"body":"too, right, so a recent case,"},{"startTime":3400.95,"endTime":3407.94,"body":"we're doing a removal. And we"},{"startTime":3407.94,"endTime":3412.2,"body":"had, some of the dogs were in"},{"startTime":3407.94,"endTime":3412.2,"body":"Shoreline crates, so they were"},{"startTime":3412.2,"endTime":3416.31,"body":"living in very small, you know,"},{"startTime":3412.2,"endTime":3416.31,"body":"areas and they weren't getting"},{"startTime":3416.31,"endTime":3422.37,"body":"out clearly. And we had a dog"},{"startTime":3416.31,"endTime":3422.37,"body":"whose nails were grown around"},{"startTime":3422.37,"endTime":3427.32,"body":"and embedded back into their"},{"startTime":3422.37,"endTime":3427.32,"body":"pads, right. And any of the dogs"},{"startTime":3427.32,"endTime":3432.9,"body":"in these circumstances, like you"},{"startTime":3427.32,"endTime":3432.9,"body":"would fully understand if they"},{"startTime":3432.9,"endTime":3436.56,"body":"were defensively aggressive, or"},{"startTime":3432.9,"endTime":3436.56,"body":"even offensively aggressive to"},{"startTime":3436.56,"endTime":3440.64,"body":"people, right? You know, you get"},{"startTime":3436.56,"endTime":3440.64,"body":"this dog that is physically"},{"startTime":3440.88,"endTime":3446.85,"body":"damaged, and is jumping up to"},{"startTime":3440.88,"endTime":3446.85,"body":"give you kisses, right? Like, I"},{"startTime":3446.85,"endTime":3451.2,"body":"think you can't really look at"},{"startTime":3446.85,"endTime":3451.2,"body":"the resiliency of animals and"},{"startTime":3451.62,"endTime":3457.44,"body":"allow yourself to be bummed out"},{"startTime":3451.62,"endTime":3457.44,"body":"more than they are because they"},{"startTime":3457.44,"endTime":3461.43,"body":"experienced the situation for"},{"startTime":3457.44,"endTime":3461.43,"body":"their whole life. I came in and"},{"startTime":3461.43,"endTime":3466.5,"body":"experience that for a day, if"},{"startTime":3461.43,"endTime":3466.5,"body":"you can be super happy about the"},{"startTime":3466.5,"endTime":3470.82,"body":"good things that happen in life."},{"startTime":3466.5,"endTime":3470.82,"body":"Like, we can't be too bad. It's"},{"startTime":3470.82,"endTime":3475.53,"body":"a little woowoo for for my days,"},{"startTime":3470.82,"endTime":3475.53,"body":"but I'm actually a huge softy on"},{"startTime":3475.53,"endTime":3480.21,"body":"the inside. But yeah, the and"},{"startTime":3475.53,"endTime":3480.21,"body":"this is something that I've been"},{"startTime":3480.48,"endTime":3485.19,"body":"interested in, you know, since"},{"startTime":3480.48,"endTime":3485.19,"body":"grad school was this, this"},{"startTime":3485.19,"endTime":3489.57,"body":"capacity for resiliency that we"},{"startTime":3485.19,"endTime":3489.57,"body":"see in animals and humans, I"},{"startTime":3489.57,"endTime":3494.28,"body":"just, I'm very humbled by it on"},{"startTime":3489.57,"endTime":3494.28,"body":"a daily basis. So that"},{"startTime":3494.28,"endTime":3497.16,"body":"definitely, I think keeps you"},{"startTime":3494.28,"endTime":3497.16,"body":"going. Yeah,"},{"startTime":3497.19,"endTime":3502.95,"body":"you, you share some very, very"},{"startTime":3497.19,"endTime":3502.95,"body":"important insights and keeping"},{"startTime":3502.98,"endTime":3506.91,"body":"surrounding yourself with others"},{"startTime":3502.98,"endTime":3506.91,"body":"that can support you and that"},{"startTime":3506.91,"endTime":3511.17,"body":"share the same goals and"},{"startTime":3506.91,"endTime":3511.17,"body":"direction in helping animals. So"},{"startTime":3511.32,"endTime":3514.59,"body":"and I want to, again, shout out"},{"startTime":3511.32,"endTime":3514.59,"body":"to the SPCA, and everybody that"},{"startTime":3514.59,"endTime":3518.61,"body":"I've met, and especially in the"},{"startTime":3514.59,"endTime":3518.61,"body":"sheltering world, I find that"},{"startTime":3518.61,"endTime":3523.05,"body":"when I see that teamwork, and"},{"startTime":3518.61,"endTime":3523.05,"body":"support to the mutual regard for"},{"startTime":3523.05,"endTime":3526.17,"body":"the work that you're all doing,"},{"startTime":3523.05,"endTime":3526.17,"body":"that there's just a different"},{"startTime":3526.17,"endTime":3530.61,"body":"atmosphere, a different attitude"},{"startTime":3526.17,"endTime":3530.61,"body":"in which it's very inspiring to"},{"startTime":3530.61,"endTime":3534.18,"body":"see. So thank you. And thank you"},{"startTime":3530.61,"endTime":3534.18,"body":"to everybody listening in that"},{"startTime":3534.18,"endTime":3537.72,"body":"is in the sheltering world for"},{"startTime":3534.18,"endTime":3537.72,"body":"all the work you're doing. So,"},{"startTime":3538.5,"endTime":3542.37,"body":"Victoria, thank you so much. And"},{"startTime":3538.5,"endTime":3542.37,"body":"if people want to learn more"},{"startTime":3542.37,"endTime":3545.01,"body":"about what you're up to, and"},{"startTime":3542.37,"endTime":3545.01,"body":"some of the projects you're"},{"startTime":3545.01,"endTime":3547.29,"body":"working on, where can they find"},{"startTime":3545.01,"endTime":3547.29,"body":"out about that?"},{"startTime":3548.22,"endTime":3552.9,"body":"Oh, that's a great question."},{"startTime":3548.22,"endTime":3552.9,"body":"Well, they can certainly email"},{"startTime":3552.9,"endTime":3556.53,"body":"me, I don't know if that's an"},{"startTime":3552.9,"endTime":3556.53,"body":"option to put that in your show"},{"startTime":3556.53,"endTime":3559.29,"body":"notes somewhere in the show"},{"startTime":3556.53,"endTime":3559.29,"body":"notes, you can definitely email"},{"startTime":3559.29,"endTime":3564.63,"body":"me. One of the things that I'm"},{"startTime":3559.29,"endTime":3564.63,"body":"working on right now, which I'm"},{"startTime":3564.63,"endTime":3567.69,"body":"super excited about, because I'm"},{"startTime":3564.63,"endTime":3567.69,"body":"a nerd. But I like to think"},{"startTime":3567.72,"endTime":3573.6,"body":"about capacity building, Applied"},{"startTime":3567.72,"endTime":3573.6,"body":"Behavior Research as well. So"},{"startTime":3573.6,"endTime":3577.26,"body":"that we can all in the shelter"},{"startTime":3573.6,"endTime":3577.26,"body":"world make better sort of data"},{"startTime":3577.26,"endTime":3581.13,"body":"driven decisions about"},{"startTime":3577.26,"endTime":3581.13,"body":"interventions in the shelter or"},{"startTime":3581.13,"endTime":3587.13,"body":"documenting cruelty so that we"},{"startTime":3581.13,"endTime":3587.13,"body":"can prosecute successfully. And"},{"startTime":3587.13,"endTime":3592.35,"body":"so to that end, we have released"},{"startTime":3587.13,"endTime":3592.35,"body":"last year and now again this"},{"startTime":3592.35,"endTime":3597.78,"body":"year, a couple of seed grants,"},{"startTime":3592.35,"endTime":3597.78,"body":"so requests for proposals and"},{"startTime":3597.96,"endTime":3602.01,"body":"these are geared to people that"},{"startTime":3597.96,"endTime":3602.01,"body":"are older doing some type of"},{"startTime":3602.01,"endTime":3605.16,"body":"research or could form a"},{"startTime":3602.01,"endTime":3605.16,"body":"partnership with like a local"},{"startTime":3605.34,"endTime":3609.24,"body":"university or researchers that"},{"startTime":3605.34,"endTime":3609.24,"body":"that have that background, but"},{"startTime":3609.24,"endTime":3614.55,"body":"it provides money for shelter"},{"startTime":3609.24,"endTime":3614.55,"body":"based research, as regards"},{"startTime":3614.55,"endTime":3618.66,"body":"behavior and maintaining the"},{"startTime":3614.55,"endTime":3618.66,"body":"psychological well being,"},{"startTime":3619.02,"endTime":3622.53,"body":"especially these sort of at risk"},{"startTime":3619.02,"endTime":3622.53,"body":"populations that we see in the"},{"startTime":3622.53,"endTime":3627.75,"body":"shelters, behaviorally, so high"},{"startTime":3622.53,"endTime":3627.75,"body":"arousal is obviously a hot topic"},{"startTime":3627.75,"endTime":3631.62,"body":"in the shelter these days and"},{"startTime":3627.75,"endTime":3631.62,"body":"other things of that nature. So"},{"startTime":3631.62,"endTime":3638.19,"body":"those would be on the ASPCA pro"},{"startTime":3631.62,"endTime":3638.19,"body":"grant opportunity page. And it"},{"startTime":3638.19,"endTime":3642.75,"body":"would have not just those ones,"},{"startTime":3638.19,"endTime":3642.75,"body":"but the A supports a wide"},{"startTime":3642.75,"endTime":3646.56,"body":"variety of different"},{"startTime":3642.75,"endTime":3646.56,"body":"initiatives. So if you're"},{"startTime":3646.56,"endTime":3650.37,"body":"looking for funding, that's a"},{"startTime":3646.56,"endTime":3650.37,"body":"great place to go to look. And"},{"startTime":3650.37,"endTime":3654.81,"body":"I'm hoping to spread the word"},{"startTime":3650.37,"endTime":3654.81,"body":"about that more. My hope is that"},{"startTime":3654.81,"endTime":3658.86,"body":"this is something we'll be able"},{"startTime":3654.81,"endTime":3658.86,"body":"to do year after year and really"},{"startTime":3658.86,"endTime":3663.03,"body":"see the benefits because we do"},{"startTime":3658.86,"endTime":3663.03,"body":"know that there are so many"},{"startTime":3663.06,"endTime":3667.41,"body":"really dedicated and bright"},{"startTime":3663.06,"endTime":3667.41,"body":"people out there. So we're not"},{"startTime":3667.44,"endTime":3671.13,"body":"saying that we're going to have"},{"startTime":3667.44,"endTime":3671.13,"body":"the best ideas, you know, it"},{"startTime":3671.13,"endTime":3675.66,"body":"could come from somebody else."},{"startTime":3671.13,"endTime":3675.66,"body":"So really supporting folks to be"},{"startTime":3675.66,"endTime":3681.3,"body":"able to, to do that I think is"},{"startTime":3675.66,"endTime":3681.3,"body":"important. So yeah, and ASPCA"},{"startTime":3681.3,"endTime":3684.6,"body":"pro in general. They have a"},{"startTime":3681.3,"endTime":3684.6,"body":"newsletter I know that they send"},{"startTime":3684.6,"endTime":3689.13,"body":"out. It has information about"},{"startTime":3684.6,"endTime":3689.13,"body":"webinars, which would include"},{"startTime":3689.37,"endTime":3692.94,"body":"webinars on behavior. Obviously,"},{"startTime":3689.37,"endTime":3692.94,"body":"it's shelter behavior based for"},{"startTime":3692.94,"endTime":3696.81,"body":"the most part. But But yeah,"},{"startTime":3692.94,"endTime":3696.81,"body":"those would probably be the two"},{"startTime":3696.81,"endTime":3698.4,"body":"places folks could go."},{"startTime":3699.029,"endTime":3701.279,"body":"Excellent. I'll be sure to link"},{"startTime":3699.029,"endTime":3701.279,"body":"to all that important"},{"startTime":3701.279,"endTime":3704.609,"body":"information in the show notes."},{"startTime":3701.279,"endTime":3704.609,"body":"Victoria. Thanks again. I really"},{"startTime":3704.609,"endTime":3706.679,"body":"appreciate having this"},{"startTime":3704.609,"endTime":3706.679,"body":"conversation with you. And I"},{"startTime":3706.679,"endTime":3708.449,"body":"hope you can come on again in"},{"startTime":3706.679,"endTime":3708.449,"body":"the future."},{"startTime":3708.48,"endTime":3712.14,"body":"Thank you. Mike is super fun."},{"startTime":3708.48,"endTime":3712.14,"body":"Yeah, great talking with you."},{"startTime":3713.94,"endTime":3716.76,"body":"I learned so much chatting with"},{"startTime":3713.94,"endTime":3716.76,"body":"Victoria in this episode, and I"},{"startTime":3716.76,"endTime":3720.09,"body":"hope to hear more from her in"},{"startTime":3716.76,"endTime":3720.09,"body":"the future. I'd also love to"},{"startTime":3720.09,"endTime":3722.43,"body":"hear what you would like for"},{"startTime":3720.09,"endTime":3722.43,"body":"additional topics in future"},{"startTime":3722.43,"endTime":3726.18,"body":"episodes of both the bitey end"},{"startTime":3722.43,"endTime":3726.18,"body":"of the dog and the help for dogs"},{"startTime":3726.18,"endTime":3729.42,"body":"with aggression subscription"},{"startTime":3726.18,"endTime":3729.42,"body":"series. You can reach out by"},{"startTime":3729.42,"endTime":3734.22,"body":"emailing podcast at aggressive"},{"startTime":3729.42,"endTime":3734.22,"body":"dog.com That's podcast at"},{"startTime":3734.22,"endTime":3737.79,"body":"aggressive dog.com I would love"},{"startTime":3734.22,"endTime":3737.79,"body":"to hear from you. And I thank"},{"startTime":3737.79,"endTime":3740.52,"body":"you for tuning into the show to"},{"startTime":3737.79,"endTime":3740.52,"body":"stay well my friends"}]}