Bobbie Bhambree CDBC, CPDT-KA

This is an excellent episode with another awesome team member from Behavior Vets. For this episode of Fresh Bites on The Bitey End of the Dog, I have an enjoyable conversation with Bobbie Bhambree, the director of behavior services at Behavior Vets, about veterinarian and trainer collaborations. An often important and crucial aspect of working with dogs who have aggression issues is this team approach which includes the dog’s guardian, their veterinarian, and the behavior professional or trainer to ensure the best possible outcomes. Bobbie and I discuss a number of key strategies to build these team relationships, and I think you will get some nice takeaways from this episode. 


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About Bobbie:
Bobbie Bhambree (CDBC, CPDT-KA) is the Director of Behavior Services and a Certified Dog Behavior Consultant at Behavior Vets. She is also a faculty member of CATCH Canine Trainers Academy and Agility University. Bobbie started her career in 2003 as a pet behavior counselor with the ASPCA Animal Behavior Center. While there, she implemented behavior modification programs for dogs who had been surrendered by the public or seized by Humane Law Enforcement. In 2007, Bobbie joined the Humane Society of Westchester, spending the next nine years as their shelter trainer. She created and implemented training and enrichment programs for the dogs, counseled adopters, trained volunteers, participated in community outreach programs, and performed evaluations.

In 2016, Bobbie joined the North Shore Animal League America in Port Washington, NY as the Director of Pet Behavior. During her tenure there, she managed a team of canine and feline trainers who focused on developing behavior modification and enrichment programs for the animals in the shelter. She also deployed for the ASPCA Anti-Cruelty Behavior Team to work in the field, supporting the team with dog fighting busts, puppy mill cases, and hoarding cases. In addition to this work, she founded and directed her own company, DogCentric Dog Training, helping people whose pet dogs experienced a wide spectrum of canine behavior issues.

Transcript

Michael Shikashio: 0:02

This is an excellent episode with another awesome team member from behavior vets for this episode of fresh bytes. On the by the end of the dog, I have an enjoyable conversation with Bobby bhambri, the director of Behavior Services at behavior vets about veterinarian and trainer collaborations in often important and crucial aspect of working with dogs who have aggression issues is this team approach, which includes the dogs guardian, their veterinarian, and the behavior professional or trainer to ensure the best possible outcomes. Bobby and I discuss a number of key strategies to build these team relationships. And I think you'll get some nice takeaways from this episode. And if you are interested in hearing more about applicable and immediate steps you can use with your own dog, or in your cases, I just launched a subscription series called Help for dogs with aggression, which is an additional format to this podcast where I walk you through a variety of aggression issues, and how to solve them. You'll find a little subscribe button on Apple podcasts where the by the end of the dog is listed, your support of the show is very much appreciated. Everyone, I've got a real special guests this week, Bobby bhambri is joining me for this episode. Bobby is a friend of mine, we go way back. And we've kind of known about each other for a long time through all the dog training community circles. And certainly through the work that we share together in our focus on aggression and behavior. Bobby is a an expert in all those categories. And one of the things that we know about each other from is from behavior vets where Bobby is the director of Behavior Services. Behavior vets is some is a veterinary behavior practice I refer to quite often with my clients. And they have got an amazing team that Bob is going to I'm sure talk about more at least Christiansen is there among a number of other wonderful veterinarians and veterinary staff and trainers and training techs and all the fancy words that they use for for trading in their environment. And so I'm really excited to talk about that that's going to be our focus for this episode is the collaborations between veterinarians and trainers as well as veterinary behaviors. And a unique aspect that we haven't had on the show before is this big veterinary behavior practice where there's a huge team, multiple locations. And so Bobby's certainly sort of the integral part of that spiderweb, I'll call it and where she's sort of the center of that spiderweb off in which she's directing a lot of the services. So she's got a very intimate look at what happens in event behavior, practice. So welcome, Bobby. It's great to have you here.

Unknown: 2:39

I'm so happy to be here. Super excited. Thank you. Yeah, so

Michael Shikashio: 2:44

So let's jump in. Let's talk about behavior vets, and how you got started there, and kind of what your role is just to give everybody a quick idea of what that looks like.

Unknown: 2:53

Absolutely. So Dr. Elise Christiansen and I met maybe 15 more years ago when I was like a baby behavior consultant. And I was seeing clients in New York City, and lower Westchester County and I was referring her quite a bit for and I was just learning about the benefit of having a veterinary behaviorist and I was always taught that it's similar to seeing a psychiatrist as a human versus seeing your general practitioner, if you need, you know, help in terms of medication if you're struggling with anxiety, or depression or what have you. So there's a real difference in understanding the nuances of medication and how it impacts behavior and mental health. And so that's how I was introduced to it. And during, I guess it was like the early like the mid 2000s or late 2000s, I started to meet other people in this circle of trainers in New York City that were referring to Dr. Christiansen and then she bummed us all out when she left New York City and moved to Colorado, we were super bummed because we had this great little network of people working closely together. And it really was kind of the inspiration that led to what behavior vet says today. Dr. Christiansen shared a very long time ago with a mutual colleague and this little group that she would love to see everyone working on in house in this collaborative way this like partner teamwork, manner, to support clients. And so it I believe our little dream team was what we called ourselves because we thought we were cool, would inspire her to do something more. And so she opened a practice in Colorado and then years later, and one of the residents who's still out in New York City, Dr. Andrea, too. She started her caseload started growing and growing and growing. And so she made a decision to leave GP and then focus just on veterinary behavior. And that was really, really exciting.

Michael Shikashio: 4:54

So let's talk more about the collaboration because you have again have that unique perspective of seeing of having all of those resources under under one roof. And an additional layer is that the team there? When I was talking to Elise, who's an amazing person, she was telling me about some of the additional practitioners. So not just behavior, but they have access, or I should say you have access to many other professionals that maybe not only focus on behavior, but other aspects. So movement issues and pain and those kinds of things and assessing for that, is that correct?

Unknown: 5:28

Yeah. And we're growing and we're growing. Yes, we work closely in the Colorado office, we work closely with someone who specializes in rehabilitation, physical therapy, and really looking at movement. And we have a plan in place to bring that into the forefront of how we do assessments, specifically consultations with the doctors. And we are also building a program to assess pain, which is part of that right looking at movement and how to assess that. And we're training our behavior consultants and across the board on how to recognize what could be pain related, based on the dogs movement based on the dog's behavior, and really taking that into consideration. Because there's a very, I don't know the percentage, but it's like, a ridiculously high percentage of cases, maybe 9080 90% is the number that is related to pain, when you're looking at behavior cases, the ones that come in to see a veterinary behaviorist.

Michael Shikashio: 6:24

And so along those lines, we, as trainers on the training side bait me don't have access to a large fan behavior practice, right, as sort of went to reach out to those professionals, and also how to collaborate with veterinarians. So bringing in that unique perspective that you have of working on our team and seeing those communications in that collaboration happen between professionals. What are some recommendations you have for the trainers that maybe live in Alabama or something or where where there's not a huge network of veterinarians or veterinary behaviors, and we need to create those collaborations?

Unknown: 7:01

Yeah, so I have a few things to say about that. First, I know that there's a number of veterinary practices like Dr. Chris pockle, that do telemedicine, so to speak or telehealth, I'm not sure what he calls it. So they do vet to vet consults, that's something that behavior vets will be doing in the near future as well. So we will be able to work with people around the country and their veterinarians. An example is we have a remote a virtual trainer, a remote trainer of working in South Carolina right now. So and she has a number of clients that need that support as well. So that's one thing is, the veterinary behavior practices that are out there are looking at ways to expand their services so that they can work with veterinarians in local communities around the country. If you are a trainer, and you're really looking to create that network, I read before I started working at behavior vets, I was a trainer, I had my own business, I did a lot of behavior work. I was lucky that a lot of my clients, they just talked about me to their veterinarians, and so their vet, and then my clients would ask for my business cards. And then because they saw results, and they wanted their, their or their vet asked for, Hey, who are you working with, I'm seeing improvements in your dog. So a lot of word of mouth, that was very helpful. But before I had that I had to hit the pavement and knock on doors and have conversations and you know, I gave a lot of my time away for free to help people understand that I'm a resource, I'm here to offer support and help and not take away from what they're their services and their client load. And I did a lot of lunch and learns I'd bring pizza, schedule an appointment, do a lunch and learn, share about my experience, talk about how I can be of service to that particular practice. So I did that as well and stayed in touch regularly. And it usually helps by maybe choosing like three or four veterinarians kind of local to you, maybe not, but they're competing with each other, but in different looks similar, you know, towns adjacent to where you might live, and then having a conversation with them and just keep letting them know that you're there to be of service to them.

Michael Shikashio: 9:09

And you bring up some great points as far as it's kind of our duty as trainers, right to to create those networks, so that we can better serve our clients and the dogs in their care because it doesn't happen automatically. Right. And sometimes we don't have the resources. So we have to often create those resources. And one of the best ways you mentioned it is to have your clients your current clients or past clients tell their veterinarians about you. So just it's just if you feel like they're being successful, just you can mention it to them, you know, hey, don't forget to mention me to your vet or do you mind mentioning to your vet that for me has worked out really well over the years where it got actually overwhelming the number of referrals right that that all these veterinarians now want to refer to you and want to network with you and and collaborate with you which is a great thing, but it's I think that's one of the best ways Got it. And of course, as you've mentioned, just getting hitting the pavement and reaching out to the veterinarians, the old, old fashioned way, you know, lunch and learns and virtual Lunch and Learns now, and I think it's it is important to create that network. And so what do you tell trainers? Or you maybe you've had this conversation when there's a veterinarian or somebody in the area that's maybe giving contradictory advice to the same client you're working with? How do you navigate that?

Unknown: 10:27

Sticky mic? So sticky? Yeah, that's a difficult conversation. I really stick with and when I always give, unless I've heard it myself, I always want to give the veterinarian the benefit of the doubt. Like perhaps they don't know the full picture, or perhaps they don't. So I really try to help the client steer away from, oh, the vet said the wrong thing, or the vet doesn't know what you're he's taught he or she is talking about or they are talking about, right. So I actually this happened recently, with one of my clients, they just got some bad information. This was a difficult case, this was a dog that it didn't need to the dog didn't need behavior, euthanasia. But if the dog stayed in that home, it probably would have been the case of behavioral euthanasia down the line, they had two small children, the dog was being was aggressive towards the children, but not in a way that was predictable. Like there was many times that the dog was very lovely with the children. And then there were times, she'd like a 40 pound terrier mix. And there were times that in no way that they could predict there was nothing in the environment or nothing. That changed in terms of the children were doing, they could have been doing the same exact thing the day before, and the dog would be triggered. So there was something internal going on with the dog and she was on medication. And it really came down to do you want to keep this dog like perhaps this is not the right household for this dog, we ended up rehoming her she, she lives on a farm, we got so lucky. And we found that farm like that dream farm out in the country, and so but their veterinarian did say, you know, I think that you should consider behavioral euthanasia. And the way that it landed for the client was, oh, the vet doesn't even know my dog well enough, this was a different vet in the practice. And you know, they just said behavioral, they just said they should euthanize a dog. And they didn't even look at her. And they didn't even talk about increasing the meds. And, you know, they don't know my dog. And it became a very defensive situation. And what I said is I said, you know, unfortunately, behavioral euthanasia is an option. I know, that's not something you want to do. And considering the limitations of your household living in apartment with two very small children, perhaps the veterinarian thought that that would be the best option for your case, not knowing that we are exploring other things. And because we have those other options, such as rehoming. And it sounds like you've got a couple of potential people lined up that are providing the environment that your dog needs, let's focus on that. So it's like hearing their anger, hearing their upset, you know, not taking away from the veterinarian and what they are saying and redirecting them back to the positive and what we can focus on.

Michael Shikashio: 13:13

Yeah, that is definitely a difficult conversation to have, as trainers, when we're faced with that kind, especially that kind of case, right? Where the outcome is permanent. And depending on what somebody might be recommending. And so it can be very difficult for us as trainers, sometimes when we've got to be careful about not overstepping our boundaries, right. But also, when we feel something is very much, the way we're thinking about it is the right way to go about it, you know, in our mind, and it might be contradictory to another professional. And so I recommend to my students and trainers is that they practice that conversation ahead of time. Because if you're faced with it in real time, it's difficult to navigate, kind of think about the right response. So that like to roleplay or like actually have, you know, the students practice that whenever possible, or really most of the difficult conversations we can have, you know, in our, in our cases in our practices. And speaking of difficult cases, you know, I think it'd be cool for the listeners to hear a little bit of a day in the life of like a difficult aggression case, because this is the by the end of the dog podcast. So we've got to focus on aggression. But it's, I think it'd be interesting to hear what a case looks like when it goes through a big practice. One of the probably one of the largest behavior practices in the world, right. And of all of these resources, I would I would suspect it is actually not that other than maybe some of the universities but I suspect well let's we'll call it in the one of the biggest bet behavior practices and got a dog going through that and the client or dog and client going through that particular network with all of those resources what a case would look like can you take us to a certain case in your mind?

Unknown: 14:56

Yeah, so I can we are actually update thing or flow, so to speak, like the client experience flow so that we can support more clients and also get them to the right person as quickly as possible whether it be a doctor behavior consultant, but I can, I can talk about, I can talk about, okay, so an example I had an aggression client that I was shadowing one of my behavior consultants. So we're getting, we're getting a lot of bite, like serious bite cases, as of late, unfortunately, a lot of level threes. Of course, I'm definitely level fours. Unfortunately, I think everyone who follows this podcast might know what that is. So vegans bite level three and four, should I get into it

Michael Shikashio: 15:37

might touch on it a little bit, I think it'd be a good refresher.

Unknown: 15:40

Okay. So it's really about looking at how serious the bite is in terms of puncture in terms of the the frequency and the range that we are experiencing when were the bites that we're seeing a lot of as of late, are shallow punctures all the way up to, like almost a mauling of the hand, for example, I'm just thinking of one of my, one of my behavior consulting colleagues has, is dealing with two dogs that have sent their owners to the hospital a number of times for amalinks. So in these situations, our doctors are behaved or veterinary behaviorists are, are booked out, they are booked out by a couple of months at least. And because of that, we pair them with the behavior consultant first. And depending on where they are in the country, it might be locally with one of our behavior consultants in New York City, for example, or in the Denver region of Colorado. For safety reasons, for the most part, our initial consultation when there is aggression going on, especially if there's a bite, we do it virtually just to be safe. And then if it seems like the next session can, the behavior consultant can safely come into the home, they'll work with them, if they are local, if that's not the case, so continue working with them virtually until it's safe for them to come into the home. And then, and then some of our behavior consultants work with people that are outside of our travel zones or regions. So they're just remote the whole time. And the case that I'm thinking of the dog was guarding, had bitten multiple people in the household, and not the owner per se was and guarding food. Now he lived with two other roommates. There's a lot of people coming in and out of the apartment. The bites were shallow, punctures, skin scrapes, like tooth scrapes on their skin, always leaving marks, always leaving some kind of mark, sometimes bruising. So it was never, it was never inhibited to the point where it was just teeth on skin or just mild pressure. And what we were looking at when we looked at the space was the setup of the home just wasn't supporting the dog. And we did talk to them about creating a safety management program, we looked at what we can do for behavior modification, what we need to change so that the behavior consultant can safely come into their you know, like it's like a three bedroom with roommates, New York City apartment and set them up with a veterinary behaviorist appointment. And pretty much in many situations, if the client is accepting of medication to supportive medication, and the behavior consultant thinks it's the right thing to do in this case or particular case. And in the case that we were looking at it was our our team, our office will immediately contact them, get them on the calendar. And if things improve, and it looks like it's okay, we cancel that appointment, as we're getting close to that date. If it's not looking like it's improving enough, or the progress is slow, or it's not or nothing is working, and really we need the supportive medication, they have that appointment already lined up. And we have all this information that supports the veterinary behaviorist and in their consult, because the trainer has just worked with them for a couple of months prior to meeting with them. There are some situations where either the individual lives out of the region of our veterinary behaviorists or they need help right away. And they can't wait for the doctor to see one of our doctors. So will often ask them for to go to help to get help from their general practitioner veterinarian. And in many cases, you know, I'll say for example, well, I believe that your dog is biting because, you know, he's fearful of people coming into the home. So there's, you know, so I just want you to have that conversation with your vet and say, I'm working with the behavior consultant. We do have an appointment scheduled with our veterinary behaviorist. Unfortunately, it's not for two or three months. And my behavior consultant who works there is suggesting that we get something on you know, medication now to help my dog this. So we're not giving a diagnosis. We're giving a description of behavior as a behavior consultant. You know, this dog is behaving aggressively towards people coming in to your home, because it appears to me that he is fearful of people coming into the home. So I want you to have that conversation. Like he's anxious when people come into the home. This is what he's doing when they come into the home. So we're describing the behavior. So they're going in, and having that conversation with their vet. And they'll often say, Well, what should I tell them to take what medication? And I say? Well, I couldn't advise on the medication, because veterinarians are comfortable with what they know in terms of behavioral medications. And we have to consider your individual dog's bloodwork and, you know, nature and temperament and physical wellness. So your vet is going to take all that into consideration. And worst case scenario, it's not the right medication, but by the time you see our veterinary behaviorist, at least we will have tried something in the meantime. So they're going in with the conversation about like, this is how my dog is feeling when this happens, and this is what my dog is doing.

Michael Shikashio: 21:01

Do find that there's cases where it's really the wrong medication, or it's contraindicated, what's what the behavior is, so maybe a dis inhibiting type of medication. And then what do you do at that point, whereas you as a consultant realize, oh, this is not the right medication, or this is definitely not a medication you use for behavior? And the clients like, oh, yeah, we try this. And then he bid me seven more times or something like that. Yeah. So

Unknown: 21:26

it's really easy when it's in one of our behavior bets, right? Because they're our client is reaching out to them directly and saying, my dog is acting weird. It's been two days on this medication, right? So that's easy. But when it's a veterinarian, I tell them, I said, Okay, this medication might not be working for your dog, if you're seeing a change that is worse than what your dog was doing before, please let your veterinarian know right away. So they can help assess the situation. Yeah, and I always let them know, unfortunately, there has been a handful of times there have been a handful of times where the vets didn't either didn't inform the client or the client had so much information to process, if they didn't, it didn't register, that there are some times certain meds or a medication for a particular individual dog could make things worse, could exacerbate the problem could create a problem that wasn't there before behaviorally. And so I've always say that to clients before they go to visit their regular vet, to say, Hey, listen, you know, your vet is going to prescribe something. But if it doesn't, if things seem worse, within the first few days, please let your vet know right away.

Michael Shikashio: 22:37

And so that it sounds like you guys have a great system in place for a lot of different options. So they if they can't see the veterinary behaviors too, right away, you've got to send them to their general practitioner vet. And so it's similar to what we have, but you have the options, of course of now, you know, what's going to happen once that dog gets into the practice, and sees the veterinary behaviors, and you're working them with them in the meantime. So you have up a probably a robust history of information before they even get to see, you know, Doctor span or doctor to. And so that's, that's a really interesting, again, insight in that aspect. Can you think of a case in which you are super happy to be collaborating, and I know, I've worked with a bunch of times, and I can shout out to Dr. Spin, oh, she worked on a case with me. Just as the pandemic was hitting, I think this dog all over with all kinds of issues, you know, and it just was it worked out so well, because, you know, I wouldn't have been able to succeed in that case, without the the expertise of the behavior med side of things. So walk me through a case maybe that you've had where you're really happy, like, Alright, I'm part of this awesome team. And I'd love to see more of this. You know, I certainly would love to see more practices like behavior vets pop up all over the place. But I know that's not like you can get your veterinary behavior degree out of a gumball machine. So

Unknown: 23:56

it takes a little bit of time.

Michael Shikashio: 23:59

But tell me tell me about a case that resonate aggression case. Maybe that right? Yeah.

Unknown: 24:03

So speaking of Dr. Spanner, oh, you know, she and I collaborate on a case. His name is Timmy, and his mom is amazing. That's a young couple. His mom is amazing, because she's actually studying ABA for people and her plan. And she's at Hunter Hunter College, and she is getting her Master's to work with children. So a lot of the stuff that we talked about, she's like, Oh, that makes complete sense. I've just learned about this in school. It was really fun. But Timmy was he was my first one of my first clients started three and a half years ago and behavior bets over three year green half years ago behavior bets and he was adopted, rescued by this young couple rehomes from another home. They weren't necessarily treating him poorly. They just didn't know how to help him. And so they did things to make his aggression worse, and he was kind I find a lot. He was forced into situations a lot that he didn't feel comfortable including grooming situations. They were a bit old school and how they thought to train dogs so, and he's a sensitive soul this little guy, he's like a mini Aussie Shepherd mix like he looks like a mini Aussie but I believe his DNA embark test came back at like to Wawa and pouring out and like Pekinese, some crazy mix of breeds. And it was like, we were like, what he looks like a mini Aussie what happened. But he anyway, so he's, he came in with a lot of handling issues, you know, he didn't, the only person that could touch him was mama like and our first goal was dad needed to be able to touch him as well where he didn't put a leash on him and her boyfriend had been bitten multiple times by this dog. And when they got him they went to a trainer not knowing that was a bit more forceful, and really looking to control in order to teach. And that's how they did it. So they had a slip lead on him. And they were looking to control him and it made his aggression worse. And within two sessions, they said this is not the route we want to go. And they contacted behavior vets. And at the time, we had a lot more room in our schedule was I was the only behavior consultant the first one hired. And Dr. spinto had a wide open schedule. So they got in right away. And started I don't remember his medication treatment plan. It has definitely changed a lot over the last three and a half years, because he's changed circumstances of change. And part of that process of addressing aggression towards the other owner, the boyfriend who lived with her aggression towards unfamiliar people, including myself, he had never bitten me because he always had control and safety measures in place. They came to me to work with me initially, because we were using we were renting a location. So they were coming to me and then we did meet at an apartment their apartment for a while. We also had to deal with the fact that they lived in a brownstone with like three or three or four other people. So it was a very busy household between the friends and the different housemates all living in this large brownstone. So he was very stressed by constantly hearing people other than his two owners in the brownstone. They couldn't brush him or clip his nails or give them a bath for months. You know, so we did a lot of work between and so Dr. sparano and I were in constant communication about not just how the medication is affecting him, like week to week. But looking at, it was such a difficult case, like how to get him to a point where it was safe for the boyfriend to live with them, and how to work with that. And we over the course of three and a half years, we had improvements and then setbacks over and over and over again. You know, in 2020 pandemic, suddenly everybody's home. And that summer, any in New York City anyway, there was constantly like fireworks. And so he's also terrified at thunderstorms and fireworks. So Dr. Stanno regular conversations about medications to help with sound phobias. And it's not specifically all sounds, it was just those sounds that he had a really hard time with. And that summer was really hard thing we had to we had conversations about quality of life in terms of, you know, he can't live in one room. So how do we work this out the fact that you live with housemates? How can we can give him more enrichment give him better quality of life. where he is today, however, is over the course of the last two years old, the housemates have moved out this young couple, they have the whole brownstone to themselves. The dog is doing so well. We've had to change a lot of the rules of he used to sleep in bed with them. Now he can't because there's been one too many incidents where he bit his dad in the middle of the night or is it wouldn't let the dad in the room, things like that. And yeah, and the crazy thing about this is he adores his dad, he prefers his dad over mom. But we had these very specific this is what happened because his dad did most of the training, I think and mom had to do all the annoying stuff like clipping nails and brushing his coat. But over time, what evolved is this relationship where he just really wants to be with dad all the time. And we had these very specific circumstances where we just couldn't like all the Bema that was just not resolving and all the medication was just not resolving it. So we had to manage it in different ways by setting him up in ways that kept everybody safe and kept the relationships healthy.

Michael Shikashio: 29:40

So it sounds like are you kind of still seeing that case and still more like

Unknown: 29:45

maintenance now. So where we are now is we've had to create a plan where if they want to travel like they thought for the longest time, they would never be able to take a vacation together. But we've been working with instinct actually And he's doing really well they go out to New Jersey instinct boarding facility that really takes their time to understand training and behavior. And there's a lot of structure and what they provide. So I had a feeling that he would do well, in a place like that versus someone dog sitting at their house, you know, we tried with their parents, we tried with me, like none of that was going to happen. So we're at a place now where we've been, I've been coaching them through their experiences with instinct, and he just passed his first four hour like interview going to drop him off and come back and pick them off. And he was quite happy. And he has a couple of friends, their staff members, those are the cheese, ladies. So yeah, he gets very happy when he sees them. And so where we are because I've moved in there in Brooklyn. In the pandemic, we've worked together for the last two years, primarily, virtually, we've not seen each other in person in two years, but we were working together in person for about a year and a half before the pandemic. And Dr. span is a big part of these conversations. Now we're kind of in maintenance mode, and we're just looking at, what else can we do to improve upon their quality of life as well as their dog and just keep them steady? And I think the environmental changes, like having the house is totally theirs now has been a huge relief for the dog. So a lot of his behavior issues have decreased or just went away.

Michael Shikashio: 31:29

Yeah, yeah. So it speaks volumes about the environment. Yeah, and how much it impacts behavior. And it also speaks volumes about, again, that collaborative effort between veterinarians, you know, behavior, consultants, and places like instinct that are also trainers, but to boarding and can understand those issues. So it's really a great team effort that can make such an impact in a dog's life. So wrapping things up, if you had one takeaway, from your perspective, in this collaborative effort with veterinarians and other professionals, what would it be? Why would you want to kind of communicate seeing that you are again, part of one of the largest veterinary behavior practices in the world like you call it that? What would your takeaway be for this conversation?

Unknown: 32:08

I believe really strongly in collaboration and partnering and communication and connecting with people, I think I'm using those particular words that particular language because there's no way we could go out there in the world and do it ourselves. Right? Like, for the before this podcast, you have your sound guy, your pocket sound guy, like making sure everything is perfect. It's not just you're doing it by yourself setting this up. You know, I don't think we can do anything alone. And the more that we can work together and be open to sharing resources and sharing ideas and welcoming one another, the more that I think we can do good in the world.

Michael Shikashio: 32:49

Well said, well said, Bobby, thank you so much. Where can people find you or learn more about what you're up to these days,

Unknown: 32:56

you can visit us at www dot behavior. vets.com. Everything is there. A lot of we do a lot of free stuff, a lot of free presentations, webinars. We do a lot of events. We have a big event coming up this summer, on resilience. We're going to be doing a two day seminar with myself, Dr. Cathy Murphy and Dr. Elise Christiansen, on resilience in dogs. Very exciting.

Michael Shikashio: 33:22

Wonderful. I love both those presenters, as well as everything you're doing with them. So thank you so much. I will wrap things up here. Thank you so much, Bobby, I hope to see you again in the future. And I appreciate you coming on the

Unknown: 33:35

show. Thank you so much for having me.

Michael Shikashio: 33:38

It was so nice to hear about Bobby's role at behavior vets a she's in a unique position to see both the Veterinary and behavior team roles in action. And I hope to see continued growth in their wonderful team and continued collaborations between the vet and behavior communities. I'd also love to hear what you would like for additional topics in future episodes of both the mighty end of the dog and helper dogs with aggression subscription series. You can reach out by emailing podcast at aggressive dog.com That's podcast at aggressive dog.com I would love to hear from you. And I thank you for tuning into the show. Stay well my friends