Patricia McConnell Ph.D., CAAB Emeritus

Welcome to Season 4 of The Bitey End of the Dog. I’m really excited to be launching 17 episodes with so many incredible conversations centered around the topic of aggression, and all of the ways we can help dogs and their people.

Many of this season’s episodes focus on the human side of aggression cases, and while I didn’t actually plan for that, I am truly happy many of the conversations took a deep dive into understanding why the human element is such a crucial part of dog aggression.

In this episode, I have the distinct honor to chat with one of my all time heroes in dog training, Patricia McConnell. Her work was pivotal in helping me learn more about kinder, gentler methods to dog training, and her knowledge, kindness, and generosity will forever be etched into the betterment of humankind.

I also want to take a moment to provide an important content warning for this episode. This was one of the most emotional episodes for me to record, and Trisha and I go deep into some very sensitive subjects. We discuss Trisha’s book, The Education of Will, and the topics of trauma, abuse, and assault are focused on throughout the conversation. Listener discretion is advised.
I also want to note that while we focus much on the human side of trauma in our discussion, we also discuss how trauma impacts dogs, and it’s impact on aggression as well.

Learn more about Patricia on her wonderful website here.

Purchase The Education of Will here.

Please consider donating to the RCC here.

Learn more about help for dogs with aggression here. 

Transcript

Michael Shikashio: 0:02

Welcome to season four of the by the end of the dog, I'm really excited to be launching 17 episodes with so many incredible conversations centered around the topic of aggression, and all of the ways we can help dogs in their people. Many of this season's episodes focus on the human side of aggression cases. And while I didn't actually plan for that I'm truly happy many of the conversations took a deep dive into understanding why the human element is such a crucial part of dog aggression. In this episode, I have the distinct honor to chat with one of my all time heroes in dog training, Patricia McConnell, her work was pivotal in helping me learn more about gentler methods to dog training, and her knowledge, kindness and generosity will forever be etched into the betterment of humankind. I also want to take a moment to provide an important content warning for this episode. This was one of the most emotional episodes for me to record. And Trisha and I go deep into some very sensitive subjects. We discussed Trish his book, The Education of will, and the topics of trauma, abuse, and assault are focused on throughout the conversation. Listener discretion is advised. I also want to note that while we focus much on the human side of trauma in our discussion, we also discuss how trauma impacts dogs, and its impact on aggression as well. Everyone, welcome to the by the end of the dog, I have an incredibly special guests with me this week, one of my all time heroes, Dr. Patricia McConnell, who I have to tell some stories about I always tell stories about the guests before we start the show, but my personal story is, you know, I always talk about books or mentors in my life that have really impacted my journey and dog training. But Tricia is probably not aware that two times you've made seismic shifts in my life, Oh, yes. And so better be good. The first one, the first ones for you probably heard many times, you know, so the other end of the leash, not to be confused with the by the end of the dog, you know, so my good friend Trish Macmillan came up with a title the bite isn't it, she's so creative with titles. But because your book is so iconic, that some people will always refer to it as the by the end of the leash the other end of the leash. But your book actually was one of the most impactful books in my crossover journey. So the term crossover training, you're shifting from using traditional or balanced techniques or certain tools, I was turned on to your book by a good mentor of mine, the late Barbara brill, who really helped me my crossover journey, she introduced me to your book to don't shoot the dog to the culture clash, and so on and so forth. And I actually would have never heard of those books if it wasn't for her. So so people think, you know, when you're in the positive reinforcement industry, you kind of everybody like, of course we know those books. But when you're starting out you I had no idea I had no exposure. And so thanks to them, and thanks to you. And I was talking to good friend and colleague of yours yesterday, Karen London doctor, Dr. London also, with you know, the books that you have co authored also was very beneficial, you know, it looking back, I don't want to ages that's, you know, over almost two decades.

Unknown: 3:26

You don't have to say anything. Maybe you.

Michael Shikashio: 3:30

So it's it's amazing how time flies. But yes, that that was it's just been so impactful in my journey. But then recently, I listened to the education of will listen, because I listened to most of my books now by by audio. So on auto bill, the education of will, I didn't know what to expect when I was going in, I knew what that book was about. But I didn't realize again, just how much of a profound impact that would have on me. And it's because of and this is something I don't think I've ever talked about publicly some of my very close friends know, but you know, I was in a in a very abusive relationship when I was younger, and didn't realize some of the trauma that had experience then in how much it carried on through my life and the shame you talk about in your book, and then the eventual redemption. And I think just in the last couple of weeks because I just finished it maybe a week ago but had been kind of listening to for the last couple of months. Something just cascaded over me in this huge lift of and it just all started to make sense to me because what I had done what's which is we're gonna jump into the topic of trauma is really just actually blacked out a lot of those memories like I people will show me pictures or talk about certain times and that was in that time, my life and I cannot recall anything. I look at the picture. I'm like, where's that from? What is that from? So yeah, it's just so two times you've already you've impacted my life have been such a profound way. So so I can't thank you enough in. And welcome to the show.

Patricia McConnell: 5:05

Well, thank you and Oh, so much to say just about that introduction. I guess the first one is thank you is just thank you for honoring us with that story. Because I mean, how many of us are there, there's just such a massive universal population of people who have been truly traumatized. You know, no matter what the cause, no matter what it was, but and I look forward to talking about trauma and what it really is and isn't in the near future. But one, thank you for sharing that story. Because it's not always so easy thing about you forgetting. That's, I mean, I repressed a lot of what happened to me for decades. And it wasn't I didn't forget it. But I never thought about it ever. It's like it didn't exist. And one of my therapist said, when I was it was coming back. And I was having a really hard time I was actually semi suicidal. I basically called her and said, I don't I think I can't live with this. I think I'm probably just going to end it. And she said, You know, there's a reason that we were that we repress things, because they're so hard, you know, but if you have the resources to bring them back it like you said, it's like a house is taken off your shoulders, you know, so. So thank you for this, Michael. I'm just really, really grateful and good for you.

Michael Shikashio: 6:32

Hey, Michael. Yes, I know, I appreciate you. You know, I'm sure you've heard it before, just how much of an impact you've had on the entire dog training community. So thank you for all of your work and contributions. So speaking of contributions, I'd love to talk about you know, your studies and learning about trauma in dogs. For us, maybe we talked about the canine aspect. And yeah, we segue into to humans as well. So let's first define trauma because that even that term can have different meanings. So what is your sort of Elevator Pitch definition of

Unknown: 7:05

that? Yeah. So my preface to the elevator pitch is that I want to live in a world in which we're using words precisely because I think trauma, PTSD, you know, stress are being thrown around a lot in ways that I'm I don't think are helpful. So trauma, the way it's sort of biologically usually defined, is, it's about a lasting effect of some kind of difficult distressful events. So it's not about being scared momentarily. Trauma is about changes, that may be forever, that may just be long lasting, and usually can be ameliorated or often can be ameliorated. That is a response to something that was very distressful. You know, and we know stress is not always bad, right? Stress can be good, or boy, I'm getting a puppy. Stress can be really good, but it still can be hard to physiologically on the body. distress is negative stress, right. And chronic stress, as we all know, can be very, very hard on us physiologically, neurologically, I have you seen, Chris, I'm sure you have Christina Spaulding, his new book on, right. What does it stress? Stress in dogs, it's so if anybody hasn't seen it, it's just fantastic. And one of the things she talks about is the profound effect physiologically and the long lasting effects of stress. So trauma is usually associated with some kind of a discrete event, although it might be there might be several of them, right? Which then actually changes the brain and PTSD, for example, a lot of the brain is actually structurally changed that in the amygdala is sort of the center of fear and anger. That's highly simplistic, but that's all I could talk about neurology right now is highly simplistic, but that's enlarged and is hyperactive, the hippocampus which is really, really important part of the limbic system, very primal learning memory, it's it's decreased in size and function. The prefrontal cortex does change the way it communicates with the amygdala. So when an individual whether dog or human, and I, I'm sure a lot of the cognitive parts of it are different, but the basic physiology of it is not between any mammal, including us and dogs and horses and right, those long lasting effects have have or changes, big, big effects on animals responses, and as you know, as well as anybody in the world. Aggression is a common response to an overactive amygdala, right, and a damaged prefrontal cortex and a diminished hippocampus.

Michael Shikashio: 9:50

And that's what I want to kind of dive into next is that aggression aspect. So, you know, obviously, we focus on aggression in this podcast, but how do we know or how does it go? As we see that, you know, we hear that from our clients, sometimes I think he's been through some trauma or abuse or something. And how can we as practitioners, or even as some pet guardians, listening in know what, you know, sometimes we don't right, but how, what are some ways of telling that a dog has been through something traumatic?

Unknown: 10:18

Yeah, that's Oh, that's such a good question. And I agree with you, we, you know, we can't ever know, sometimes we just can't, you know, one of the ways I found was just taking a lot of time in the interview. So here's a classic case, and I'm sure you see this and all the trainers and behaviors out there see this all the time. There's a dog who has been relatively relaxed, pretty, you know, within the normal confines of normal dog behavior for years. And then gradually starts say becoming aggressive to other dogs say they're out on leash walk in the neighborhood, always has been fine seeing other dogs and growls when another dog comes around the corner. And then two days later, it's a growl bark. And then another dog runs up to it who used to be okay with and it's a growl, bark pounds, right, or lunch or something. And I'll never forget the first time this happened. I was, obviously a long time ago, when I was talking to his clients. They were telling me and we were like, 25 minutes into the interview. And they said, we you know, we go to the dog park, twice a week, and he loves it there. And he's always fine. And I said, is anything ever happened there? And they say, Well, you know, there was this big huge Labrador mix, who ran over and sort of rolled him over. And he was fine. He wasn't injured, it was okay. It was fine. And nothing happened. We took him back the next day, and he was fine. And then the next time he wasn't, he was a little nap fine. And the next time he was less fine. And so one of the things about trauma is that it very often, you don't see the results of it until later because the brain is actually making physical changes over time. It's actually trying to figure out what happened and changing in a way to deal with it. So I know with me, like, I had like no responses to some of the things that happened to me until time went on, you know, and I can still get triggered. So it might have been a couple of weeks ago, that set me back. And I was fine for a while and then all sudden I wasn't. And because I know, you know, I know myself. And I know the symptoms. I was like, Oh, my goodness, that happened five days ago. Right? So that's a very long answer to one very short aspect about how to figure it out. So one is to understand that an event and trauma, you don't always see the results of it right away. So the dog can be fine after the dog fight. Right. But not a week later. So that's part of it. I don't know, what do you think? Do you have that

Michael Shikashio: 12:47

experience? That's, you know, such an interesting thing to think about. Because if a change in behavior happens, we're often jumping to something else. Right. So medical, new medical issue, new pain issue, social maturity, development, adolescence, developmental periods, you know, and we, we often jumped into those, but we sometimes forget, and maybe it was that events that happened three days ago, three weeks ago, three months ago. Yeah. So interesting. And it's, and you're right, it is very difficult to know, you know, what's happening there, because the dogs can't tell us. Right? Yeah. Because that dog park experience from three

Unknown: 13:23

days ago, right. And the dog might not even know, you know, I mean, do dogs repress things? I don't know.

Michael Shikashio: 13:30

Right? Right. That's why this conversation is so fascinating, but also important, you know, to kind of think through these things.

Unknown: 13:37

So I think I mean, one of the things I've seen a little bit of and you know, this is true in any business, basically, any field, it's just hard to take that much time. It's just hard to take that much time. But I really, if you really want to understand, you know, is it pain? Is it? You know, is it some developmental issue? has its eyes changed? Because it's now seven months old? And he can't see very well, you know, was there an event? It just takes a tremendous amount of time. And I find that's one of the biggest challenges of working with clients. I mean, I don't do it anymore. But the entire time that I did, we're all the same. We want things fixed right away. Right? You know, and I don't know if it's worse now than it was before. It seemed to me over the 25 years or so that I was seeing clients, it seemed like people wanted more quick fixes, more sort of the end of that period. I don't know, do you find that challenging to sort of help people understand that?

Michael Shikashio: 14:37

Definitely. I mean, just in a case, even in cases where it you know, trauma or stress is, you know, overt stress is not significantly a factor. I mean, it's even difficult just in you know, air quotes, standard aggression cases, right. Yeah. Yeah. And so in that regard, I kind of want to also ask, you know, strategies to sort of end Besides the need for patience and understanding with our dogs, if you again, navigate those conversations on the human side, would that what would that look like for you? If you're trying to convince an armless? Guy, I just want to get this fixed or I think, yeah, so it must be Yeah, you know, just, you know, how they are, there's circuits wired wrong, or, you know, the typical things that people might say, well,

Unknown: 15:19

I don't have time and I don't have money, you know, I mean, life, right. You know, I mean, I'd so I just have so much compassion for people who are strapped for time, or energy or money, and they love their dogs so much yet, you know, and it's like, can I deal with this? So I guess for to me, I love to hear what you say. But the first thing I do is, I just feel so compassionate towards people who have come to us, you know, because they've come to us. Bless that, right. I mean, yay for them, you know, they're not shooting the dog. They're not, you know, doing what the grandfather said. They're not just, you know, throwing it away. They're trying, right. And so the first thing I do is I sympathize. I empathize. I sympathize, compassionate, I just, I like, I get it. I totally get it. If I had a magic wand. You know, we would figure this out today. We would solve it tomorrow. You know, we could we could deal with that. I don't know how to do that. There are some quick methods that some people use, that I'm not comfortable with. You know, I mean, as we all know, punishment, one of the aspects of punishment that that people who use it, argue makes it more effective is that it's quick, right? It's can be quick, and it's fast. And a lot of people want quick and fast. So I'll talk about the downside of that, you know, like you can stop your dog from growling by giving it a leash pop, but that doesn't change what's going on inside and you just lost your warning system. Right. So that's one thing I do. And then the other thing I do, and I think this is really important, I would always create some kind of progress some step. So one of the things I do, even though it had nothing to do with the issue, is I love to teach a stay. And I'm not even really asking them to use it that much. I want them to see how much control they can have of their dog without scaring it or touching it. But you can teach them to do it, and you send them out of your office feeling empowered. And because I think that's what they need people feel. Don't you think people feel desperate? And out of control and helpless? And if you give them a feeling of compassionate power? You know what

Michael Shikashio: 17:32

I mean? Absolutely, I think that's one of the most important tools any trainer or consultant can possess is empathy. It's, I think, probably trumps everything else is the most important thing when dealing with the clients when working with the clients, because really does start with the clients in our aggression cases because of emotions involved.

Unknown: 17:50

Right? Right. You earlier talked about shame. And that is so huge. And so important. And I think you know, you were saying empathy is so important. And I think a part of that empathy is helping people take the shame away. I mean, I've, we actually talked about this in meditation class about how a friend of mine colleague, and she was talking about how guilty she felt. She was so ashamed. This is the most responsible, careful person, she has been so careful, she's practically isolated herself for three years, right. And she was still felt guilty. And people who stalks her aggressive exceptions, of course, but in general, people feel so ashamed and so guilty. And I think taking that shame away, because shame is a really destructive emotion. It doesn't motivate you that doesn't do anything but make you want to curl up and shrink and hide and be defensive. Right. And so one of the things I tell people that one of the first thing I'd say is like, you didn't bite anybody, let's be clear here, you did not bite anybody. Right? And just talk about how, how, what are the things I learned from therapy actually is how easy it is to feel guilty about something that happened because feeling ashamed and guilty. gives you the sense that well if I just did something different. Well, if I hadn't done that, well, if I had done this, it wouldn't have happened. In other words, we're in control. Right? In other words, it's still all about us. We can control what's happening and if I had only done this or not done that, then it would be okay. And the fact is we are dandelions in the wind right? I mean, of course we have a lot of control over a lot of things but stuff happens. It just does. And we are you know we are little tiny specks in the universe. So trying to live that burden to me feels really important.

Michael Shikashio: 19:55

Yes, yes, it's a such an important point because that the self blame too is another characteristic I often see is, is it my fault? Or is it something I'm doing wrong? And one of the best things we can do is really help alleviate those concerns, because that can lead to the shame, you know, and the guilt. And if we can step in and say, Listen, we're all doing the best with the information we can write, we have rather, what the goal is, right? Because we can control everything, like you said,

Unknown: 20:24

What is CRISPR? Chels say that we're all doing the best we can with the skills we have in the circumstances we're in, right. And I've said that over and over and over to myself, as well as to other people, right?

Michael Shikashio: 20:37

Yes, yeah. Because there's so many why sayings as well. Yes, yes. So a little bit more on the trauma aspect is sure, again, helping the dogs, let's say we were confirming to ourselves that a dog has experienced trauma. And we've got that patience and understanding piece in place. What are your thoughts on, you know, the behavior change strategies that are out there now, with trauma in mind? So we, you know, we've talked plenty on the show about counter conditioning strategies, desensitization, enrichment, all of the typical things, but we talk a lot about the dogs that are have experienced trauma, or are expressing aggression or aggressive behavior as a result, in certain context, especially right, so what are some of your insights there?

Unknown: 21:18

Yeah, yeah, thanks. I love that question. It's a great question. Because, as somebody with PTSD, it's, here's the bottom line, safety, feeling in control, that it's the absolute bottom might what happens to many of us anyway, I wouldn't say everybody but happens to many of us. So we feel like you're talking about control, we don't have it, right. So this is sort of the other side of that is that when you know, when an individual is severely traumatized, what you end up with is a feeling of, you never know what's going to happen. The two things that were in a way hardest for me to get over physiologically not necessarily emotionally, but physiologically, or one having a man fall from five stories and land at my feet and die. And the other is actually not in the education of will, the editor asked me to take it out, she said it's too much people can't handle it. So I will just warn people, it was a trigger warning coming here, this is a very difficult moment of my life, you know, you might want to just edit it out. Or you might want to just turn away if you're listening. But I was in one of those fun houses, and I am using air quotes on purpose. Now, I was in one of those fun houses in a state fair with my girlfriend. And it was one of those pitch dark, you know, like you can't see your hand, it's absolute complete, pitch dark. And then, you know, scary which statute would come out, you know, and you'd sort of walking along in the pitch dark. And what I now understand to be three young men, leapt out, grabbed me, threw me down, pull my pants off, braked me, and then stole our purses and then ran away. And the reason those two things are so hard is that they were completely out of the blue. So the reason I'm telling you those stories is that when things happen out of the blue, they are almost always harder to deal with. And that if you look at people who have been in serious car accidents, for example, if they're hit from behind, and they didn't see it, they have a higher rate of getting PTSD. You know, about 30% of car accident victims get some version of PTSD, but it's the ones who didn't see it coming. So when you think of it that way, then you have this individual who never knows when Doom is gonna fall. And ironically, the response to that I had it and I think millions of individuals have it is to try and feel a sense of predictability. So getting back to dogs, that's what's so important, is a sense of safety and predictability. So for weeks and months, and maybe years afterwards, they need to know that they can predict what's going to happen around them, they need to know that you are protected, they need to know that they have some control over their life. So creating safe spaces where nobody bothers to really feel safe, having routines where they can predict things that happen. I think that's really important. Never putting them in a position where you're going too far too fast, never disfiguring. Oh, well, they'll be okay. And it sort of sounds like I'm talking about kid gloves, but in a way it is, you know. Yeah. So does that make sense?

Michael Shikashio: 24:32

Absolutely. And first of all, I truly am sorry for this. And I really appreciate you your vulnerability here and sharing that experience and you know, all the other things you've had to survive. So yeah, I mean, you talk about predictability. You talk about safety, and I was going to actually ask you that because then you actually answered my question for me is predictability so important and it resonates with me completely. No and experiences in my own life as well as with dogs. Yeah, you know, because I think advocacy too, is really the word when we're talking about our dogs, because we have to love that a lot of, you know, we're in control of their environment most of the time for them, at least as best we can. Yeah. And so you know, versus us as people, we sometimes have much more choice about what we do in our lives. But for our dogs, we really need to advocate and we have to, we were often kind of thinking on this macro level of, okay, let's just avoid the dog park, or let's avoid, you know, going into this particular super scary location. But it can often manifest in much more micro ways. And that's think about dogs, too. They're so quick to latch on to different associations in the environment, like, oh, that garbage can their to us is like garbage. can, you know, what's the big deal a garbage can, but that garbage can could have been there on the day that they experienced that traumatic event? Right. So those are the sort of micro details, we need to parse out for our dogs and advocate for them in those subtle ways, because most of us often are cognizant of the big details. Right,

Unknown: 26:01

right. Right. Yeah, no, I think that's so important. That whole issue of safety, predictability, and the other one that you touched on that I think is so important, is agency, you know, is autonomy is when can you safely give your dog more autonomy. And one of the things that I love about the dog training world right now, just oh, it makes me so happy. Because I you know, when I started, everything was at least jerk. I mean, that was it, right? And I just, oh, it just makes me so happy to see so many really smart, thoughtful people, understanding, you know, and just the whole universe starting to understand the minds and the lives of other animals. Now, it's just so heartening, but it also puts responsibility on us, right, you know, now that we know, right, it does a lot more about the emotional life of, for example, our dogs. And so one of the biggest challenges I see with a lot of companion dogs in the United States is a lack of autonomy, you know, is a lack of freedom. And you know, I'm really lucky I live in the country, we have land. I mean, my dogs are on leash to go to the vet and steal their times, I just want to go inside, right? So it's like skip, go Hurry up, which means go poop, please. That's his cue is Hurry up, because it's still on Wisconsin. So and I know, there are times he'd rather be outside longer, so he's still doesn't have the kind of agency or autonomy that a street dog, frankly, has, you know, or that we have, right. So I think creating situations and I see more and more of that happening, I know you're doing it are giving, you know, and you know, the bucket game, right, you know, giving dogs autonomy and agency where they can call the shots more and not in a not in a spoiled way. But just because they're sentient individuals who have a life. Right.

Michael Shikashio: 27:57

Absolutely. And I love that you're talking about this, because, you know, I we were talking before the show, I and I mentioned I had just gotten off with Dr. Marc Bekoff, recording his episode, which is probably going to be out a little later than if anybody's listening in to yours right now. But we were talking very similar lines of just this the need for agency and the lack of it, in cases we're seeing, and perhaps maybe that's why we're seeing an increase in aggression in some of these, these environments where we're so restrictive on the dog's movements in in their natural agency.

Unknown: 28:31

I mean, everybody who's been to Europe, right, right. You know, we were in downtown London, at one of the huge parks there, you know, and the dogs run leash down the sidewalk down, you know, by the busy roads. And as soon as they got in these fenced passive parks, of course, they were off leash, you know. And, you know, we walked from miles and miles and miles and Scotland wasn't, you know, no dogs, you know, we went to the seashore. And it was those were the National Forest kind of area. There was no, you're in a National Forest. You have to leash your dog. Right. So yeah, so I think our dogs really do suffer from a lack of that. I think I I think I might be a little baby. If I if my life felt so constrained.

Michael Shikashio: 29:17

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That that frustration and just lack of enrichment. And there's so many variables. Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna take a short break to hear a word from our sponsor, and we'll be back to talk more about emotions and a lot of other deep details into this conversation. So we'll see you back here in a few seconds. In lieu of the typical mid episode sponsored ad you usually hear in the by the end of the dog. Given the important focus of this conversation, I would like to ask you to consider donating to the RCC in Madison, Wisconsin, the RCC advocates for those harmed by sexual violence by centering survivors. ers, promoting societal change and committing to be an evolving force for social equity. Serving Dane County since 1973, the RCC formerly the rape crisis center is a nonprofit organization that provides services to survivors and their support people have all forms of sexual violence, including recent sexual assault, past sexual assault, incest, sexual harassment, and sexual exploitation. You can find a link to donate on their website, the rcc.org. That's the RCC dot o RG. And you can also find the link in the show notes for this episode. Thank you for your consideration and for listening to this episode. All right, I'm back with Dr. Patricia McConnell, we've been having a really, really great chat about how we can help dogs how we can understand people. So you know, I want to kind of keep diving into both of those details about you know, helping people helping animals. But one of the topics now to sort of relate it to well, very related to trauma is abuse with dogs or abuse with people too. So first I do again, we're gonna give another content warning, we might be discussing topics that may be triggering for some, so please be aware of that as you're listening to the show. But first, I'd like to start off by defining abuse, because that is another topic or our label that we need to have a clear definition to to have a clear conversation on. I think

Unknown: 31:34

you don't nobody's ever asked me that question. I find myself wanting to throw that back to you. It's a great question. And nobody's ever asked me that before. I want to ponder it for a minute. And I want to hear what you have to say. Because it's a really good question, because I think that's a little bit like stress and trauma, and then it can be thrown out with such a broad meeting that eventually become meaningless, right? Yeah. And

Michael Shikashio: 31:58

I'm the same way I don't think I've found a very standard definition, right? It's sort of like aggression, depending on who you ask, they're gonna see a lot of different definitions for it. Yeah. And I think for me, it really is dependent on the individual, their interpretation of what it is they're experiencing, and whether they find it abusive or not to themselves. So because some people, you know, might actually find something reinforcing that others might consider abusive in some situations.

Unknown: 32:27

That's, that's a really, really good point. I love that perspective. So basically, what you're saying is as defined by the receiver, sort of like reinforcement, sort of defined by the receiver, and I can think of so many examples of that just, I was at a training seminar, in which some of the methods it was sheepdog training seminar, some of the methods being used, I was uncomfortable with, and it was really clear that there's they were punishment oriented. No dog was ever hurt. However, I'm sure that some people consider it abusive, some people wouldn't. But what I can tell you is that the dogs responded with tremendous variation. It had little visible effect on some dogs. And there are other dogs who were clearly frightened. So I'm I really like your perspective is like what, you know, what impact is that having? You know?

Michael Shikashio: 33:16

Yeah, and so in that regard, I think it's very much the perception of the person, right? So that's also observing it so we perceive the learner or the the sentient being experiencing something. And based on what we're seeing their body language, let's use dogs, for example, their body language, their behavior, their physiological signs, the behavior after those moments, and we can kind of extrapolate what we think might be abusive, but the reason I'm going down this is I think it's important to to clarify what this is because in some of the conversations that are happening in the dog training community are some will look at something as abusive, and others are actually using those techniques or tools to employ their dog training and they don't think they're abusive, then they take a lot of offense to being called abusers. Right. So we can talk about different tools, but let's do something that's maybe less polarizing, maybe let's use a squirt bottle, right? So instead of going all the way down, yeah, either way, sure. Let's just, let's use a squirt bottle, for instance. So some dogs, right, maybe, you know, you spray them and they just completely melt like in we they're, you know, tell toxic scatter they everything. And then anytime they even see anybody holding anything, they're just, they're out of there. And then some dogs, you know, we might see like a Labrador Bell, yes. Where it makes it more open. Let me open my mouth, and you can scrub him in the mouth. Right. And so that's kind of exempt. I think it's, again, I'm leaving the other tools off the table for now. But I think hopefully this will serve as a good example for the talking point. But I think it's our perceptions and I also will dig into you know, what our experiences is that shape our perceptions. But so what are your thoughts there so far?

Unknown: 34:59

So I guess one of the things I find myself thinking is, and this relates to something we could talk about forever, which is the divisive pneus that seems to pervade the dog training community. I mean, I talked to, you know, people who are in it, I say, yeah, it's sort of like, you know, politics, right. There's just a lot of very strongly held feelings right now. Right. And so, I guess where I am, is, I try to avoid words like that. I just don't find them helpful. You know, somebody said, is something you do abusive? And like, you know, I think a good answer is to not answer that question, except to answer it in a different way. So, you know, I guess my own thought is, I think we need to be careful of those words that are so divisive, basically, and so emotionally laden, because if you have been abused, you know, that's a pretty emotionally laden word, right?

Michael Shikashio: 35:56

Yes, yes. And I think, you know, kind of the next direction, I want to ask you to go along those lines of what you were just saying is, you know, somebody that has experienced abuse, and let's say it's been something physical, and that they're witnessing something that reminds them of that that's being done to dogs, I can understand that I can empathize with that, you know, horse going through that myself, as well as seeing something physically happening to another person or being an animal, it evokes those emotions, right? I think it is a word we have to be careful with. And understanding that side of the equation as well. I don't know if I have a question. I think I'm just thinking out loud here. I mean, what do you what are your thoughts?

Unknown: 36:43

Yeah, well, you know, you reminded me, a friend of mine, talks about how she was. And I don't want to use the word abused. But she was basically something her father did something to her, that came out of the blue was relatively violence, absolutely terrified her and, and she talks about it in terms of dog training, and basically says, I have never forgotten that. I've never ever forgotten that. So she's using the concept of trust. And I think that's a place for us to go, is how much trust is your dog have in you? How much trust you want your dog to have it? You? You know, she said, once it's lost, you can never completely get it back. And I think there's some truth to that, you know, there's some writers about trauma, who talk about how once, once something sort of earth shaking happens. Like with me, once that guy fell literally from the sky and died at my feet. It's like, you can never take that away from your brain. Right? You can never not wonder unconsciously if something like that was gonna happen again. And so her her comment about dog training is if you really physically go after your dog, if you truly scare hurt or injure your dog, you're never going to take that back, you know, so don't do it. Once you lose that kind of trust, once you never trust the world is going to be completely safe once you never trust that particular person to be there for you. It's really hard to recover, you know?

Michael Shikashio: 38:21

Yeah, that's very, very true. It's a good argument of why we have to be so careful with any kind of punishers or verses, and especially when mixing those in with reinforcers. Right? Because it creates such unpredictability. Exactly, exactly. And potentially impacting that trust you were talking about. Exactly.

Unknown: 38:43

And you know, and now you're leading me down a different path related, but a really important one. And we're sort of going back to guild which are circling back around to guilt and shame. I don't know many people, I know there are some, you might be one of them, I don't know, who are perfect around their dogs all the time. There are times in my life. You know, I am I am generally a very patient person. I'm generally very nice person. But I have had moments when I was exhausted and tired and stressed. And I am recalling throwing a coffee cup across the room because my computer was scoring snow after my dog. I you know, I don't go after my dog. But I know that scared my dog's right. And now it's like, oh, she's a person who could do that. Right. And then of course, there's all the guilt and the shame. You know, and so and especially with people who have been traumatized, sometimes it's hard to regulate those kinds of emotions or you know, abuse and I saw so many clients against her going back to where we started, we felt so guilty and so ashamed, because they weren't perfect. And so I think on the one hand, we have this really interesting meditate Ativ kind of balance we have to create, which is, which is always being cognizant of how important it is to keep the trust of our dogs and to be compassionate and forgiving to ourselves. Because we're not perfect, you know. And that's a balance to hold all the time, right? To hold into think about and sort of live with and make peace with.

Michael Shikashio: 40:24

Yeah. Gosh, so many things going through my mind right now.

Unknown: 40:29

I mean, you know, I mean, have you ever? I mean, I'm putting you on the spot here, but But have you ever, like, yelled at the TV or, you know, done something? And then you went like, oh, shoo, you know?

Michael Shikashio: 40:40

Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, who has it? I mean,

Unknown: 40:46

I think there are people who don't, they're not very,

Michael Shikashio: 40:51

it's like, we know, every time I've heard you speak or read your stuff, you know, I just, you know, I think of you as one of the nicest people on the planet in my eyes, you know,

Unknown: 41:00

no, I, you know, that is that is a part of me, you know, and I, I want to be a truly kind, compassionate, generous person, and most of the time I am. But I'm not always, you know, I'm not. And that's one of the burdens. I mean, you know, you're going to have that more and more. Two is that people expect you to always be that person. And I am almost always that person. But I'm not always that person. And I think I always I was just writing actually, something else. Actually, I was writing my novel, and I was writing a section on somebody who got violent and said, Oh, that's just not me. You know, how people say, like, oh, that's, that's not me. It's like, yeah, it is. It's just not the part of you you like, right, you know, we all have many parts of us. And I do think forgiving ourselves is just just so important. And rather than judging, just being curious, it's like, oh, wow, why did I do that? You know, being just being curious is just, it's saved me from so much. I think it's the one of the most important sort of mental strategies that we can have is, you know, you start getting frustrated will be curious, well, what's going on? Why? Or what can I do about it? You know, what is Why do I have a border collie. Now skip, who's six years old? He has a habit he came with three years ago, I have never been able to completely change it. There are times I get frustrated with him. And it helps me profoundly to be like, Well, why now but not yesterday? You know? So curiosity is is our Savior, I think,

Michael Shikashio: 42:34

Spoken like a true ecologist as well. You know, a behavior observation is so crucial to understanding, you know, not just looking at that moment, you have to observe it over time. data sample right to stand those nuances. Yeah, yeah. So I'd love to kind of tie everything together. Now, we were talking about with helping dogs helping people, the trauma, the abuse, that some have experienced, you know, and you are talking about predictability, and that I can resonated with me, because it takes me back to my situation. Yeah, you know, so my story, which I really haven't talked to, I don't think I've ever mentioned it on any in any public forum. But it goes, so good for you. Yeah. So when I was much younger, I, you know, had a relationship, I ended up having my first son really young. So I started early, I was 23 at the time, but I was in this relationship. And I was with somebody that was very manipulative, but also would switch to being extremely, you know, just nice and sweet. And then suddenly, this manipulative, really awful abusive behavior would surface. And so in a way, I've learned a lot of resilience. I've developed a lot of resiliency for frustration, because it was so incredibly frustrating, because, you know, I had my son at the time. And his mother was abusive to him just long periods of neglect. locking him in a closet and just Oh, really awful things. Oh, sorry. Yeah, it just it was, you know, so many so many traumatic events, you know, she had created stories of me assaulting her and she was so good at manipulating people. She could have the police eating out of her hand, you know, so I was arrested twice, you know, falsely, and thankfully, she was having one of her bad days. And this is when we went to court, and that completely cleared everything because, you know, became obvious to the judge. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which then allowed me to get sole custody of my son and get him out of the abusive situation as well. But it really impacted me going forward because I needed that predictability in my relationships. I needed to move away from this unstable illness, and I didn't recognize it at the time. And I think it also has profoundly impacted how I interact with the mind Kids and the dogs that I work with, and making sure that they do feel safe and that they do feel that things can be predictable. But I had didn't realize it. So I really read your book or listened to your book and everything was like, makes total sense to me. Yeah. And there's still some things I think I need to unpack after listening to you book. But I think also, you know, I mean, when there's a missing connections there, just put it together. So thank you for, for writing your book.

Unknown: 45:30

Oh, my thank you. First of all, thank you for sharing that story. And for being brave, and being bravely vulnerable. One quick thing I want to say not about dogs. But your story, a family member of mine went through the same thing for actually 20 years, his wife was abusive. And finally, finally the cops came. And this time, it was exact same scenario. Finally, they were like, oh, oh, wait, it's not him. Right. It's not the guy this time. And I don't know how common it is. But it's obviously a lot more common than people think. So one, thank you for telling that story. Because I think it's so important for men to be given respect, and belief, but sin, what a gift, you know, this horrible thing that happened to you, and it breaks my heart to hear it, I can actually cry right now I won't, but I could easily breaks my heart. But what a gift in a way that you have taken that experience and used it to help so many dogs and so many people, you know, and the fact that that's impart even unconsciously sort of driving, what you do, it's just bitter, sweetly, beautiful, you know, it's sort of sadly beautiful. So you've turned this horrible thing that happened to you, and this wonderful, wonderful gift that you're giving to the world. So thank you.

Michael Shikashio: 46:51

Thank you. And, and thanks to all of the trainers also that are out there. Because I think I think a lot of us have gotten into the dog training community, because people have led us down in other parts of our life. And so a lot of us will figure out that eventually we pay, we do actually have to work with people in this field. But we sometimes like let me gravitate towards the animals, because they're not going to hurt me, they're not going to let me down. So anybody listening in resonating with some of the things Trish and I are talking about, thank you for, you know, all the work you're doing with animals to help animals and their people, right?

Unknown: 47:27

Yeah, yeah, no, we're all animals, right. And we're all in this together this bond that this magical, magical evolutionary story that we have with dogs, it's, it's, there's just nothing like it, you know. And so the magic goes on, you know, them teaching us just as teaching them and as sort of moving through time and space in this incredibly emotional, you know, strong, physical, mental, emotional experience that we're having with another species. It's just, there's just nothing like it on Earth. And aren't we lucky to be a part of it?

Michael Shikashio: 48:01

Yes, yes. I think that's a good way to wrap up the topic. But I do want to talk about what you've got coming out next, as well, because you're an unbelievable author, an avid writer. So what are you working on? Now? What can we expect from you next?

Unknown: 48:15

I am this morning, I was writing one of the last chapters of my first draft of a mystery novel. And of course, there are dogs. Of course, there are dogs, there's also trauma in it. Not shockingly, right. But it's really fun. I've never written fiction, I've never written a mystery. I had no idea what I was doing when I was starting. So I'm working on that it will be forever till it comes out. But I'm having great fun with it. Really, really fun with it. So what I am writing and putting on a little world is my blog, which is the other end of the leash, other end of the leash.com, you can just go to my website, Patricia mcconnell.com. And my blog is there. And I'm on Facebook, which is a really interesting community. Basically, they're sort of two separate villages. They're very different. The personalities are very different. But I'm enjoying them immensely. You know, really, I love talking to people all around the world. And so that's what's keeping me busy sort of writing that's going out into the world. So thanks for asking, just just Google my name, and you'll end up there.

Michael Shikashio: 49:24

Wonderful. And I'll be sure to link to all of that in the show notes as well for you guys. And definitely kudos to the other end of the leash blog. I you know, it's been around for for quite some time now. And it is just packed with unbelievable resources and information being nice bite sized chunks to you know, yeah, understandable ways.

Unknown: 49:42

And then there's podcasts like this, which are just a wonderful addition. So

Michael Shikashio: 49:48

I appreciate that. Yeah. So lots of different ways to learn and it's just, it's a great thing to see that community. So, Trisha, thank you so much for joining me. This has been incredible conversation chin and I hope to see you again in the future.

Unknown: 50:02

Me too. Thank you