Imagine making your dog's veterinary visits a stress-free experience for both of you. Join us as we chat with Dr. Christine Calder, a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist who shares her expertise on low stress handling for animals. As the Chief Behavior Officer for Cattle Dog Publishing, Dr. Calder is passionate about educating veterinary students and helping pet owners create a positive and safe environment during veterinary procedures.
We discuss practical strategies for building trust with your furry friend, such as giving them time to acclimate to the clinic and using treats to assess their emotional state. Dr. Calder emphasizes the importance of understanding canine body language and movement, as well as the role of proper equipment and muzzle training. Together, we explore the benefits of collaborating with trainers to provide comprehensive care for animals with behavioral challenges.
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
The Aggression in Dogs Master Course
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
About Dr. Calder:
Dr. Calder has lived and practiced veterinary medicine in both New Jersey and Maine for many years. In addition to general practice, Dr. Calder spent time as part of the behavior service at San Francisco SPCA and in Community Practice as part of several veterinary school teaching hospitals. As a general practitioner, she always had an interest in animal behavior and in 2016, she finished a residency with the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists becoming a Diplomate with the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (DACVB) in 2017. In addition to her own behavior referral practice, Dr. Calder is the Chief Behavior Officer for CattleDog Publishing and a Vets at VIN Consultant.
www.caldervbs.com
Imagine making your dog's veterinary visits a stress-free experience for both of you. Join us as we chat with Dr. Christine Calder, a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist who shares her expertise on low stress handling for animals. As the Chief Behavior Officer for Cattle Dog Publishing, Dr. Calder is passionate about educating veterinary students and helping pet owners create a positive and safe environment during veterinary procedures.
We discuss practical strategies for building trust with your furry friend, such as giving them time to acclimate to the clinic and using treats to assess their emotional state. Dr. Calder emphasizes the importance of understanding canine body language and movement, as well as the role of proper equipment and muzzle training. Together, we explore the benefits of collaborating with trainers to provide comprehensive care for animals with behavioral challenges.
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
The Aggression in Dogs Master Course
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
About Dr. Calder:
Dr. Calder has lived and practiced veterinary medicine in both New Jersey and Maine for many years. In addition to general practice, Dr. Calder spent time as part of the behavior service at San Francisco SPCA and in Community Practice as part of several veterinary school teaching hospitals. As a general practitioner, she always had an interest in animal behavior and in 2016, she finished a residency with the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists becoming a Diplomate with the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (DACVB) in 2017. In addition to her own behavior referral practice, Dr. Calder is the Chief Behavior Officer for CattleDog Publishing and a Vets at VIN Consultant.
www.caldervbs.com
What can we do with dogs that struggle in a veterinary setting? Dr Christine Calder, a board-certified veterinary behaviorist, joins me for this episode and we jump into a bunch of useful strategies about helping dogs feel less stressed during veterinary procedures, as well as techniques for low stress handling and even what to do with dogs who can't even be touched. Dr Calder earned her DVM from the Mississippi State University. Christine has lived and practiced veterinary medicine in both New Jersey and Maine for many years. In addition to general practice, christine has worked at the San Francisco SPCA, auburn University's College of Veterinary Medicine and Louisiana State University's School of Veterinary Medicine. Most recently, she was an assistant clinical professor in community veterinary services and veterinary behavior at Mississippi State University's College of Veterinary Medicine. In addition to her own behavior referral practice, dr Calder is the chief behavior officer for cattle dog publishing and a vet at Vinn Consultant. She has a special interest in education and preparing veterinary students to be day one ready for practice. And if you are enjoying the buddy end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there are a variety of resources to help You learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming aggression in dogs conference happening from September 29 through October 1, 2023 in Chicago, illinois, with both in-person and online options. You can also learn more about the aggression in dogs master course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues.
Speaker 1:Hey everyone, welcome back to the buddy end of the dog. I have another special guest with me this week. I am so excited to have Dr Christine Calder here, who is a veterinary behaviorist. We love our veterinary behaviorist because I was just talking with Christine right before we started the record bond about how many hats they have to wear and how good they have to be at so many different things. I don't think we give them enough credit for all that they have to do between research and actually having a staff and running a business. Oh, by the way, there's patients to see, and so welcome to the show, christine. It's great to have you.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. Thank you, Michael, for having me.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I know that sort of how we met is through. you know, when I was looking for speakers for the aggression in dogs conference, i always loved to have veterinary behaviorist representatives. So we have two this year, which is wonderful. But your focus, as well as what you'll be talking about, is low stress handling in animals. So just for the audience, because not everybody knows what low stress handling is. So if you can kind of just define that for us, what does low stress handling mean?
Speaker 2:So low stress handling was developed by Dr Sophia Yin, who unfortunately passed away several years ago, and it's a way of handling animals in a more welfare friendly or behavior friendly way, so we try to minimize their distress. There's many different parts to low stress handling, so Dr Yin created these 10 general handling principles And so low stress handling encompasses all of those handling principles to really make sure that that animal is having the best experience that they can have in that very stressful environment.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it's something we definitely focus on with, especially in our aggression cases, because stress can sort of be that catalyst or that fuel behind the fire, so to speak. Correct, i'm going to definitely jump more into that topic, but I also love to hear a little bit more about your roles with, for instance, cat and dog publishing and some of the other hats. You again, many more hats that you're wearing.
Speaker 2:My many hats, yes, so let's jump into that first.
Speaker 1:Yes, cat and Dog Publishing. What do you do there and what's your role?
Speaker 2:there. So Cat and Dog Publishing is Sophia's company, and it was actually acquired by the Veterinary Information Network in 2020. Actually, sophia's mother chose the Veterinary Information Network to be kind of the house for all of her life's work So everything that she had done because she was a pioneer when it came to animal behavior and training and low stress handling and the Silver Certification Program. And so in 2020, i came on with Cat and Dog Publishing and I'm the Chief Behavior Officer. So basically, my role is content, and so one of the big projects that we're actually currently tackling right now is actually we're revising her low stress handling textbook, and so we have several veterinary behaviorists, veterinary technicians that specialize in behavior, that are part of a group, and we're all writing different chapters of the new edition of her book. That's our big project right now, and then we're also starting to tackle the courses as well the Silver Certification Course So much undone, and we need to do some revisions because things have changed over the past nine years.
Speaker 1:And thank you for carrying on the legacy, helping to carry on the legacy of the great Dr Yin. We all miss her for sure. I had met her briefly years ago at an IW ABC conference and she's just such a delightful person. So, yes, we remember Dr Yin for sure. Okay, so the Veterinary Information Network, sort of, is the parent company then for catalog publishing. Yes, correct, and so your role is kind of the same with an that umbrella.
Speaker 2:In that umbrella I also am a consultant for the Veterinary Information Network And my other role there is I'm part of the educational team. So one of my passions is actually the education of veterinary students and veterinarians And so this gives me that opportunity to kind of reach more veterinarians, more veterinary students, through the Veterinary Information Network and help to spread that continuing education. And also, you know, I'm working towards hopefully building even some behavior courses that we can then utilize in the veterinary schools, because there are, you know, many, many veterinary schools that really do not have a clinical behavior service but they don't even have a required behavior course.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and I think it's something that as trainers, on the trainer side, we always ask for that, to see more of that, and so thank you again for another great initiative. It sounds like you are very busy and doing a lot of great things, so let's dive into. You know, dogs, cats, animals that have issues in the veterinary setting. I'm sure many of the listeners can resonate with this, with either their clients, dogs or animals, or cats or other critters, or their own. So what's the, what's probably the number one issue you see in that setting? So meaning, not behavior problems outside of that setting, but the experience of the animals in the veterinary settings.
Speaker 2:In the veterinary setting is going to be fear and anxiety and aggression. You know that's probably the number one. You know the majority of the patients are fearful. They don't want to go to the vet. It's very stressful for everyone involved But you know there are a good percentage that will use aggression And I know aggression has many different definitions and there's different, different levels of aggression. But when you cannot examine an animal safely or shouldn't examine an animal because they are so over threshold, you know it's very difficult to get the diagnostics you need. It's very difficult to really even get a diagnosis or a good physical exam to determine what may or may not be going on with that animal.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so there's a lot of conundrums to have to unpack because of that. So you know, for instance, you know we might have an animal that it's, you know, very obvious about pain or some other underlying medical issue outside of the veterinary setting, but they're masking it so well, or their fear or their behavior is masking it so much in that setting. So what do you do there? So how do you, let's say you have a dog that's completely shut down, it's just not. You want to see the gate, do you want to be able to examine the dog? But as you can get close to the dog, what do you do in those situations?
Speaker 2:So a lot of times I watch, i sit and I watch that animal as they walk around the room, as they interact with the client. This gives me a lot of good information, just watching and observing that animal. But also I will ask for video of just a normal day to day activities at home because you're right, in the veterinary setting they are so overthreshold that they're going to mask the pain or the discomfort. And we now know that so many behavior, issues or problems have a pain component to them. And so you know pain really is important And there are so many, so many patients.
Speaker 2:I had one just the other day where she it all started back in January when the client was turning over a chair on the deck and the dog jumped off the deck and she was lame And then she got better And then she was playing in the snow And then she was lame again And she went to the. You know she went to the veterinarian. She had some pain medication prescribed But she didn't get better. But she also didn't want to go outside anymore. She didn't even want to go out to eliminate. She was eliminating in the house, house-soiling in the house And she was afraid to go out. The door was their perception of it Went on and had a neurology consult and finally had an MRI and she has salision in her back.
Speaker 2:So when she jumped off the deck, that aggravated a disc in her back. When she was then playing in the snow, that aggravated a disc in her back And so that was causing her to be so fearful of them. When they were shoveling She was hiding in the corner and shaking. She didn't want to go out the back door, but the main reason was because she was in pain or discomfort And that was kind of that was contributing to her anxiety or her anxiety-based behaviors as well. So pain is such a big, big component to many of the cases that I see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, And we know what a question that's kind of a side question I get. A lot is about what percentage of aggression cases are pain-based, And I know that's difficult to put a and. I've seen numbers as high as 80% And I think it was Dr Daniel Mills study right.
Speaker 2:Yes. One of the studies out there, i think it was 77%, it's a real high percentage Yes, so what are your thoughts on that? Oh, yes, definitely, yeah, definitely I would say I would say I would say at least eight out of 10 have some kind of a pain component.
Speaker 1:Wow, especially in aggression cases.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. And it goes on diagnosed, you know, they come to me and then I send them back for the radiographs and you know, lo and behold, that's when we see it. So you know, and it can be so difficult, and a lot of these dogs you have to sedate in order to get you know, a good exam, or the pedic exam is very can be difficult. Sometimes A neurologic exam can be difficult, you know, because of their disposition or how they feel, or how they're expressing how they feel in that setting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you think about the tragedy involved when a dog is in pain and we're missing that diagnosis, and then you know people might resort to punishment or using something to suppress that behavior, and the dog is just simply screaming that, hey, i don't feel well here, i'm in pain. And when you put that hype and number on it, it really does, you know, put things in us and a unique perspective of, hey, let's really focus on the needs of these dogs and then address that. You know, the health issue first and most of our aggression cases, right, correct. So strategies for, let's say, we get the dog, you have the video, the dogs in your office and somewhat you're able to, you know, examine the dog somewhat. But what do you use? Let's talk about some like first line strategies to help the dogs. Is it, is it medication? Is it the techniques you use? Is it how you approach the dog? Like, walk me through some of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, initially, you know, i just I try to give the dog time to acclimate before I really interact with the dog. You know, when the client comes in, i try to be sitting. That gives the dog time to kind of get comfortable with us in the room And then we may toss some treats or leave treats around the room for the dog to find. you know, some dogs will eat it right away. Some dogs take a little bit of time, but that gives me time to assess their emotional state. You know, and I let the dog come to me. you know I don't directly go to the dog.
Speaker 2:I, you know, i give that dog time and as they're coming to me and we might start with treats across the room, you know, and then maybe a little bit closer and then eventually, you know, they may come up and be soliciting and I, you know, i have to watch the body language as well, but eventually you may be able to touch the dog or, as they're kind of turning around, you can, you can kind of feel down the back, you know, do a limited physical exam. you know, really, just depending on on the situation and depending on the dog, there's some patients that you just you're not going to get that physical exam, at least not on that first visit, you know. and then next time we may have to sedate them to get you know a better physical exam, and then we can work on more cooperative care type of techniques for that for that particular animal.
Speaker 2:So, but I do. I try to just give the dog time and let the dog get comfortable with the space. I also try to make the space as inviting as possible for the dog. We have a nice soft blanket on the floor, we've got a water bowl. We might have some toys in the room puzzle toys. You know we ask them to remove any kind of adversives that they may have on them. You know, if they've got a prong collar, a shock collar, i'll ask them to remove that because you can often see the dog will do a, you know, the shake off or they seem to relax more when those devices are, you know, are removed in in the room. And you know and I just kind of give the dog time to get comfortable with us There's some dogs that never do but there are many dogs that will start to relax and it really varies. You know it could take five minutes, sometimes it takes an hour before they're comfortable.
Speaker 1:How do you balance that time? So you know you have to see a lot of patients, you're on a schedule, so you know how do you? that's tough, that must be tough, not trying to rush things because you have another appointment the next hour but you also want to make sure you're. So talk me through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean we do a lot of re-checks and we have them come back. You know we don't plan on getting through everything on the on the first visit, and so you know that's one of the one of the strategies that we'll do. They also have to fill out a history form. So I have a lot of the, a lot of information beforehand. I've got a behavioral history that's about 10 pages long. That takes them about an hour, 45 minutes to an hour to complete. I've got a full medical history to evaluate. So I, you know I prep for it. So I've got. So I've got some pre-work. I have homework that I have to do before my appointments.
Speaker 2:But that also helps us to streamline as well. And then we might have to prioritize why they're there, you know, and, and you know it may be in one visit we we go through one, two, three and, and then the next visit we go through four, five and six. It really just depends, you know, on on the situation. But you know you also don't want to overwhelm either, because if you give them too much, if you get too much information, it can be very overwhelming. So we really want to make sure we're addressing the most important or concerning behaviors for that particular animal.
Speaker 1:Do you ever get pushed back from some clients to say well, you know, why aren't you doing it? Just do it, just do it, you know. and you're saying well, i first don't want to stress out your dog, but I also don't want to. I don't feel like getting bitten today. So like, how do you? do you have those conversations Like if somebody's really just like pushing, because it probably happens sometimes, right, Not a whole lot In general practice.
Speaker 2:Yes, in general practice you get pushed back. You know well, dr So-and-So just did this, you know. But in in the behavior practice I don't tend to get pushed back. What I do tend to get are the calls of well, you have to see my dog to know what they're doing You know that, that I do get a lot of, but no, I don't tend to get the pushback on, because we tell them, you know we want them to make sure that their pet is having a good relationship with us, because we want it.
Speaker 2:It's going to be a long relationship, you know things. It's a journey. I tell them it's a journey, you know So it's going to be a long relationship that we have and we want to make it as pleasant as possible for that, for that pet.
Speaker 1:Well that's. That's good to hear, because I'm I'm glad to see some. It sounds like there's more understanding in the entire pet world about having more patience and understanding of our dog's emotions and needs, right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So that's good to see And that's that's off to the entire community. So, whether it's the trainers, you know, conveying that information so that when they go see the vet behaviors they can understand that, or vice versa. So, and I do want to give a shout out to all the veterinarians out there, because it's the same, you know, in terms of the pressures that they experience. I think we forget that they are under all veterinarians and veterinary staff are under immense pressure, quite often from the patient load, especially now. I mean the number of patients and the expectations of some, some clients, not all clients, of course, there's plenty of wonderful pet owners out there, but it's just. It can happen And I and I unfortunately see that I can take its toll.
Speaker 1:So shout out, shout out to all the veterinarians listening and vet staff. Thank you for the work you do. Okay, so jumping back just to the, you have a dog comes up to you. What else do you do? Like, if so, your own body language or how you talk to the dog? can you walk us through some of the mechanics of this?
Speaker 2:So with body language, i try not to lean into the dog. You know I don't reach for the dog. Very rude, i try not to make prolonged eye contact, you know, very rude for the dog. Very polite in the human world We shake hands. We, you know, we look people in the eyes, but in the dog world that's very rude.
Speaker 2:So we, you know, i try to avoid that I'll I might call the dog into my space. Those are the things that I tend to do, but I also try to minimize my movements. So you know, i've, you know, especially, there are some dogs where it just takes shifting your pen or shifting in your seat, that sense sense to reset them, you know, and then you're back to square one again. So you do have to be mindful of that as well. You know I never lean down. You know, i think that's really important And I tend to toss treats away, you know, and when I'm doing that, i'm doing it for many reasons. One is well, i'm building a relationship, but two, i want to see them walk away And I'm also helping the dog learn that they can move away from me. You know, they've got that ability to avoid or escape which I think is is so important. They've got some control over that situation.
Speaker 1:Yes, you reminded me of something too is like when I was doing a lot of in-home consults. I walk out of there like really stiff. I'm like. Why am I so like stiff? It's because you, you become so aware of sitting. Still, they're not the little movements you know. Just a little hand shift. It's like reaching for your pen and could be disastrous. So you have to be very careful with some dogs.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that definitely resonates with me. So you know, in terms of safety, now for your own safety, I'm sure there's some dogs that I mean. We rely on our body language. You know experience, being able to read the dog's body language, their communication, That's going to keep you safe. 90% of the time There's that small subset there And they're not very communicative or they get conflicted. They're like OK, there's a, they were tossing me treats And then, even if you're careful about tossing the treats away, they still can get kind of sucked past their critical distance. So they're not like oh, I'm really close to this person, So what do I do? So how do you balance safety, or are there particular tools or things you use in the office?
Speaker 2:So sometimes we use X pens or gates you know is kind of divide the room.
Speaker 2:The current room I'm in now is pretty small. Also, i'll assess the behavior when they first come into and also during the appointment And if I feel like things are escalating, i'll ask the client to grab the leash. You know we do try to leave the leash on and let them drag that as another safety rule. Sometimes we have hooks at the wall to tether the dog. You know I don't currently have that, but that would be another safety measure that you could utilize as well. And sometimes they come in with a muzzle on. You know they're already been muzzle trained, they're comfortable with it, you know. And they come in wearing it And you know they can. They can get treats out of a snuffle mat. They can get treats off of the floor, you know, with a well fitted muzzle.
Speaker 1:So you know, and that's a safety measure- Yeah, and what is it with veterinary behaviorist offices being so small? So every time I go, every time I go and visit somebody, it's like because I've met a lot of you guys and you're all wonderful, but the common thing I see is small office.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. Well, yes, and I've been in several now, like over the years I've visited different behaviorists and veterinary schools, that type of thing. But you're correct, i mean, a lot of them are small. Right now we're working out of an old farmhouse and you know the rooms are compartmentalized. You know, i have a resident and we kind of rearranged her room, we moved her whole table over so that we had more space, because I'm like you know, we've got some dogs today. This was last Friday.
Speaker 2:And we've got some dogs today that we're going to have to be careful about. We need you know, we need some more space, and we can't we can't have something in between us and the dog that you know. the dog can't see us or know where we are at all times, so yeah, yeah, Because we always talk about distance.
Speaker 1:You know distance being your friend. Yes, 5x5 cubicles somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yes, for a cat it's a different story. Yes, for the dog yes, yes, yeah, Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of that, helping the dogs feel more comfortable, or cats even what are your strategies when it comes to medication? You know so there's all kinds of opinions about medication out there, so we'll leave that out of the off the table for now in terms of discussion about treating behavior issues. But when it comes to helping dogs feel more comfortable coming into the office, do you find some strategies work well for you there?
Speaker 2:So, yes, i mean, you know, clients will usually ask you know, and they'll say, hey, you know, when I go see the veterinarian we usually give medications. Should we do that? And it really just depends on the situation, and usually I tell them, you know, i'm not going to be doing anything that's invasive, i'm not going to be necessarily examining or touching, you know, and so medications may not be needed, but certainly, if the car rides stresses them over walking into the clinic, stresses them, you know, give them medication if they have it and they've been utilizing it. I had a dog last week that has Addison's disease And so, you know, stresses, and he also has fear at the vet, and these Addisonian crisis can be triggered by his fear response. So, you know, she gave him his trisodone before he came in.
Speaker 2:So that was one. That was one situation where I thought that was very important. So you know, there are so many different medications, but, you know, one of the things, though, that we do have to remember about medications is, a lot of times they're just, oftentimes to get the sedation in to these animals. They may not be or give us permission to do all of the things that we want to do, you know physical exams, blood draws, that kind of thing. It's oftentimes to get that IM injection into that animal, depending upon you know the level of severity for that patient.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned trisodone And I find that very common And my discussions I will mention. I am not a vet But so I don't speak about medications in any facet. But I think it's important for behavior consultants and trainers to be aware of what meds are out there and to know, when discussing with veterinarians and veterinarian behaviors about the meds, to be educated about what they are. But we certainly aren't going to make recommendations about meds, but any other meds in your lineup in terms of the trisodone Oh yes, trisodone most common Gabapentin.
Speaker 2:I actually utilize clonidine and silio. Sometimes I use silio. You know we've also have some studies on pregabalin in cats, But that's another option. But usually the most common that I see coming from the veterinarians is going to be trisodone and gabapentin.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at various dosages, but I'll oftentimes talk about clonidine or silio as alternatives.
Speaker 1:Talk about those two a little more. So clonidine and silio. I don't think they're as familiar to some people.
Speaker 2:No, silio was actually labeled for noisephobia But we have several studies on using it for veterinary visits. There's actually research on using it for veterinary visits And it's dexmeditomidine which is what they actually use as the injectable. If they're going to sedate the dog, most will use dexmeditomidine. Amongst other things, the nice thing about the silio is it can go onto the gums when they arrive, so it doesn't have to be given, you know, 90 minutes necessarily before the appointment, so it's a little bit faster acting. But it's usually in combination with other medications. Clonidine is very similar. It also is a alpha 2 agonist which is the same class as the silio or the dexmeditomidine. It is used oftentimes. My favorite use of it is actually fear of noises, but we use it for veterinary visits and other kind of like impulse control, like that kind of reactivity on leash and things like that. But I have found that it can be helpful in some cases for veterinary visits, but it has to be given ahead of time.
Speaker 1:Let me dig a little deeper now because for my own selfish interests. So the clonidine, so you mentioned it for impulsivity, in the sense of if we have a case of a dog that is kind of goes to high states of arousal or very intense behavior responses towards stimuli in the environment, so sudden contrast in the environment, for instance, do you see it used for those kind of case dogs that are very reactive, on leash, so to speak?
Speaker 2:Yes, Correct, yes.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:And then it doesn't last very long. So it actually works nicely for those kind of situations because it's not like they're going to be sedated for the rest of the day. It tends to be pretty short acting, but you have to know if you're going to go for a walk to give the medications. But it can be very helpful in combination with a behavioral management and treatment plan. Like none of these medications are standalone.
Speaker 1:And I think that's important as well, very important, very important thing to mention there for sure. Yes, because sometimes we see that unfortunately just relying on the meds, side effects that people should be aware of. So if you're talking to a patient or the client, can you walk us through some of the side effects of those meds, if there's anything you should be aware of or people should be aware of?
Speaker 2:Sedation is probably the biggest side effect that we tend to see. Of all of those medications You can have some GI side effects. That's especially even the trisodone, softer stool gabapentin. Sometimes you can also have some GI side effects, although that's a lot less common. Sedation is the most common. Those are really the main side effects that we see. I've had a very small number show an increase in aggression, but that's very, very rare And so I might talk about that only because I say if I tell you this it won't happen.
Speaker 1:I don't like that. Yes, that's very good.
Speaker 2:But that's pretty uncommon. I can name five, maybe on one hand, where that's happened, but usually there's something else going on that might trigger that. But the biggest is sedation is our side effects, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if we're using them for veterinary visits. Now, if we're using them for other things, then that might be troublesome, and so you may need to adjust what you use or make some different choices.
Speaker 1:And can you talk about some of the meds that we used to see more commonly but may still be used sometimes I still hear about some other classes of meds, so like ACE-promazine or some of the benzodiazepine class drugs, and what to watch for. And so we're not demonizing those drugs in our conversation here.
Speaker 2:No, we're not.
Speaker 1:Yes, but there are certain talking points to be aware of, so walk us through those.
Speaker 2:Yes. So ACE-promazine I mean I've been a veterinarian a very long time and that was our go too many years ago, long before trasadone and all of these other newer medications that we've started using. And you know, ace-promazine sometimes we do use it. Even now We'll use it in combination with our anti-anxiety medications for some cases And it can be helpful in some of those cases. But it's not used as a standalone for behavior cases.
Speaker 2:You know some of the side effects you might see is sedation or they may just power through it and you see absolutely nothing. Sometimes they can become more noise sensitive. I can remember you know in practice, and you put down a hemostat on the table and the dog jumps. So you do have to be careful about that with ACE-promazine. And then the benzos, the benzodiazepine, so things like alprazlam and lorazepine. We still use those sometimes. But those are the ones that I do have concern. If you have any kind of fear, aggression, those are the ones that you could potentially have some disinhibition in terms of a bite. So I don't tend to use those.
Speaker 2:But there are some cases where I will, like the dog I talked about from the other day with the back pain that's actually, we put her on a benzodiazepine because she was so frightened and didn't want to go outside and it actually helped. But the benefit to it also is it's a muscle relaxer. So I think it also helped with her back and her back pain as well. But she actually started to play on a walk, which she hadn't done in a while, and I said, well, i don't think that's really the anxiety as much as it was helping her feel better. So there are cases where those medications may be still beneficial, but they're not typically my go-to, at least not as oral medications. As injectable, we will sometimes use them as part of the cocktail per se that we give them for the injectable medications.
Speaker 1:And just to touch base on disinhibition, do you mean the disinhibitory effect on behavior or on the level of bite, or both, both, really both.
Speaker 2:I've seen it both ways, You know.
Speaker 2:I've seen it both ways. They are very helpful medications to use in certain situations, but you just you have to kind of pick and choose those cases in which you use them and weigh your pros and your cons and do test dose. That's the other thing. I think that's really important too, especially if we're talking about veterinary visits or we're even talking about using them for other things When visitors are over or separation anxiety. Do your test dose at home to see what kind of a response you get, because that can help you determine if that may be the right medication or not and if they are going to have any side effects.
Speaker 1:And I have a follow-up question to that, because it's a question I actually receive. A lot is for those patients that you need to see before you can prescribe, but you want to give them something to test at home before. So how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:That is difficult. That is a very difficult thing because you really do need to have that client-patient relationship. So that can be something that can be very difficult when it comes to these cases. So you would hope this is what I would hope is that they would have a relationship with their veterinarian so that those medications could be prescribed, if needed, for the next visit.
Speaker 1:Got it, got it And then for your visits when they go up to the next tier. Got it. That makes sense, Correct?
Speaker 2:And that veterinarian will prescribe it for my visit and then we can adjust from there. What I think is so important is to have that open communication between me, as the behaviorist, and the veterinarian and having those conversations so that we're all because we're all on the same team and we're all there to work together.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and so I want to talk more about what the pet guardians out there can do to help their animals prepare for visits to the vet or the vet behaviorist. But I'm going to take a quick break and we'll be back more to talk about all of those things. Hey, friends, it's me again and I hope you are enjoying this episode. You may have figured out that something I deeply care about is helping dogs with aggression issues live less stressful, less confined, more enriched and overall, happier lives with their guardians. Aggression is so often misunderstood and we can change that through education, like we receive from so many of the wonderful guests on this podcast. In addition to the podcast, i have two other opportunities for anyone looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, which include the aggression and dogs master course and the aggression and dogs conference. If you want to learn more about the most comprehensive course on aggression taught anywhere in the world, head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the dog pros tab, and then the master course. The course gives you access to 23 modules on everything from assessment to safety, to medical issues, to the behavior change plans we use in a number of different cases, including lessons taught by Dr Chris Pockel, kim Brophy and Jessica Dolce. You'll also receive access to a private Facebook group with over a thousand of your fellow colleagues and dog pros all working with aggression cases. After you finish the course, you'll also gain access to a private live group mentor session portal with me where we practice working through cases together. And if you need CEUs, we've got you covered. We're approved for just about every major training and behavior credential out there. This is truly the flagship course offered on aggression and dogs, and it's perfect for pet pros that want to set themselves apart and take their knowledge and expertise to the next level, or even for pet guardians who are seeking information to help their own dog. And don't forget to join me for the fourth annual aggression and dogs conference, which is happening online and in person from Chicago, illinois, september 29th through October 1st 2023. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you might have heard on the podcast, including Sue Sternberg, dr Tim Lewis, dr Christine Calder, sindoor Pangal, cyrus Stremming, sean Will, masa Nishimuta and many, many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and veterinary behavior cases to working with aggression in shelter environments and even intra-household dog-dog aggression, and I wanted to take a moment to thank one of our sponsors for the conference As a family of world-class trainers.
Speaker 1:Fensi Dog Sports Academy provides expert and accessible instruction for competitive dog sports using the most progressive training methods and positive reinforcement techniques. Through their online platform, students are able to access professional dog training, no matter your location or pup skill level. Fdsa believes the bond between the dog and human is a proud and life-changing partnership, and they'll work with you to develop a respectful and kind relationship with your furry best friend. Check out FDSA at FENSIDogSportsAcademycom. All right, we're back here with Dr Christine Calder. We've been chatting about all things inside the veterinary office and veterinary behavior office, as well as how we can help our animals cope and do better at the vet and feel better and feel safer, right. So let's jump into some of those strategies. So you have some pet guardian listening in right now and you have to give them some tips about what can we do at home to prepare ourselves or prepare our animals better, whether it's dogs or cats, or maybe you want to separate those two into two different categories.
Speaker 2:Well, i think one of the things that's important if we want to talk about cats is carrier training. So carrier training actually can be very helpful because if we think about getting a cat into a carrier, how stressful that can be for everyone involved, and so if the cat is already comfortable going into the carrier, then it's a whole lot easier to get that cat into the carrier and get them to the veterinarian. I can't tell you how many times as a general practitioner you would have a client call and cancel because they couldn't catch the cat. So carrier training can be something that can be very helpful, i think, for dogs, making sure you have the right equipment, so like a front clip harness, not a retractable leash.
Speaker 2:We want to have a four to six foot leash, because it can be so hard sometimes when the client is standing at the front desk and the dog's coming around into the exam room or there's other dogs in there, having the client wait in the car and then text or call when they get in and then we can text or call back so that to let them know when it's free Watching the waiting room. So make sure everything is clear to get these dogs in and out. But also give them a small meal. But bring things from home that they really like, whether that's a favorite toy, whether that's something like a bed or a mat, something familiar that they like to lay on. That's soft. Bring that with you. Bring toys with you that they like. Bring food or special treats from home that they really like. That can be really helpful when we're working with these animals.
Speaker 2:And then, if you have animals that do have a history of aggression, making sure they're comfortable wearing a muzzle.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the most important things is really making sure there's such a stigma around muzzles, and there really shouldn't be.
Speaker 2:Every dog really should be comfortable wearing one, because any dog has the potential to bite. And I think that's really important is that if you do have a dog that's fearful or anxious, it's better to have the client have to put the muzzle on at home, or really it's the dog wants to put their own nose into the muzzle. So I think that's a really important to do at home is muzzle train these animals before they come in, because it can be very stressful And if you notice, a lot of times these dogs are actually biting at the muzzle, not at the person necessarily putting it on. So making sure that dog is comfortable with that at home And then also making sure they're comfortable with car rides. You know car rides are another because stress starts at home. Before they arrive They're already over threshold And so if we can keep that stress level to a minimum before they get there, that's going to make them be much more comfortable during the visit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know I 100% echo the muzzling and getting a dog used to wearing muzzle, because even the best of dogs, we don't know when they might, for instance, get injured or there's an emergency or some crisis where you have to create your dog and bring them to somewhere public in a scary environment, and so you just never know. You know the best most you know what we would air quotes well-behaved dog could potentially face a crisis And that could be very, very difficult for them. So we were talking about like getting the dogs used to the environment. So with COVID we used to see a lot more. You know, just go to the vet's office, you know have treats everywhere and then you don't do anything, you show up and then leave and you get like these nice fun visits, so that way that the office isn't always you know a place where you're going to get examined or anything else. So have you seen that kind of take a back step because of COVID and people weren't able to go into the offices or I do, yeah.
Speaker 2:So one of my biggest concerns is that a lot of veterinarians will take the dogs to the back And so the clients weren't able to be there, and I think that can be stressful for many dogs.
Speaker 2:Some dogs do better in that situation, but for many dogs there's some level of comfort having their person with them, and so I have seen some escalation of fear, anxiety, stress, distress at the veterinary hospital, and part of that, i think, is because of taking these dogs to the back, like even just going in and getting them from the car and taking them can be very stressful And you may get aggression, but you also may get that dog that kind of shuts down or goes into that freeze mode which can oftentimes be mistaken for compliant or obedient.
Speaker 2:But these dogs are often just as fearful And I think those are the ones that really get missed sometimes in the veterinary hospital And they don't really realize just how fearful or anxious that pet is, because they're not growling at them, they're not showing their teeth, they're not lunging, but they're just as fearful, they're just as anxious as the dog that is doing that And they really have nowhere to go. So I do think that with COVID I think that there was some significant reasons for an increase in aggression, And it may be because the owners couldn't come with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is that something you recommend? now, moving forward is if you can get in there, depending on the space, because obviously your office is going to be probably different than the general practitioner because you're more likely to see behaviors. You're going to have to probably be more careful about that. But what do you recommend there?
Speaker 2:So if we have some GPs listening in or people that are wanting to take their joke to the vet, Yes, so one of my I have a new resident and she's a general practitioner And one of the things that I think she's doing which is brilliant is she has their happy visit, but their visits with her staff or her team members and each team member is linked up with a particular dog And they have these happy visits with that team member where they're building a relationship between that particular team member and the dog And so she kind of stays on the periphery.
Speaker 2:I mean, she's there if she needs to be. But it's really about the dog building that relationship with one particular team member and the hospital itself and getting comfortable. And then they work on some cooperative care techniques And eventually what winds up happening is that technician can draw blood, can give certain vaccines or vaccinations, get ear swabs, that kind of thing, because the dog learns to get comfortable in that environment and with certain people, and I think that's a great way to build relationships between the dog and the clinic or the hospital that they're going to, so having designated team members to be working with these animals, That's brilliant, yeah, and it's such a perfect idea because that's all it is is at first, with dogs, they have to feel safe and be able to trust that person that they're going to be interacting with.
Speaker 1:It's so similar to. I had Sarah Iesalazar, who's an amazing shelter handler, and she was mentioning kind of the same thing. You make that relationship with the one person that's in the shelter environment And that really creates a lot of open doors as you go along in that environment because they learn. That kind of one person was pretty cool, so maybe that person doing the exact same thing as that previous person will also be pretty cool.
Speaker 2:We hope so Right, yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, so another thing that I want to kind of jump into is the availability of that behavior. So I think there's I think that last count I was talking to Dr Groom. there's over a hundred of you now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's about a hundred now.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're trying to crack that 100, that three digit mark for a long time, so I'm glad we're there.
Speaker 2:We're getting there, yes.
Speaker 1:Well, what that also means is that there's a very limited number of you, because there's also a number of behaviors that aren't practicing. They're in research right Or teaching type of role. So I guess, it's, i guess, just your thoughts on that. I know and I'm going to again reiterate that we have to consider just how much pressure and stress the veterinary community and veterinary behaviors are under, and I was with Dr Groom, for instance. I go there to visit and lecture to the students there, just a couple one hour lectures. I do my part.
Speaker 1:But the amount of work that they have to do research and teaching students and then creating curriculums and then seeing patients and then hosting somebody like me down there is just mind boggling. So it's not just seeing patients. You have to keep up with the research, You have to do research, You have to. It's just truly mind boggling how much you do that. So just your open thoughts on the demand for vet behaviors And sometimes people say there's a five, six month or longer wait list.
Speaker 2:So there is. Yeah, i mean it really depends on where you are in the country. You know certain parts of the country. You've got a plethora of veterinary behaviors And then there are other parts of the country where you just do not. The good news is is we do have a lot of residents that are moving up through the ranks. So, you know, hopefully that number will be increasing significantly over the next you know, five to 10 years as they work through or complete their, their residency.
Speaker 2:But it is, i mean, it is hard because there are not, there are not enough veterinary behaviors right now. You do have some veterinarians that have a special interest in behavior, but they're not veterinary behaviors. You know they haven't gone through the residency and gotten that. You know those credentials and that type of thing, but they've gone, done a lot of CE and you know a little higher level of knowledge than than some of the veterinarians. So you do have that option if you have someone in your area. But but it is hard And and we are trying to, as a college, expand the college and grow the college so that we can get more, you know really want to increase that availability.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Because there is such a need. you know behavior problems are just so prominent And and we know they're, you know they're life-threatening. So you know we want to try to help everybody that we can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and some vet behaviors, depending on which state they're located, are able to offer remote consults, vet-to-vet remote consults.
Speaker 2:Vet-to-vet remote consults definitely We're. no matter where you are, you're able to do that. So that's one of the things, too that I think is important too is talking to your veterinarian or veterinarians that may be listening, you know. reach out to your local veterinary behaviors or someone in your area or someone that you know that's a veterinary behavior, because they can do those vet-to-vet consults And, and especially if you have a client that may need to wait, you know this is an opportunity where maybe you can do some intervention and get things started until they can get in. Or maybe this is a case you can manage in your practice, but maybe you need a little help with behavior modification or you need a little help with medication choices. You know many of the veterinary behaviors are very happy to help and and want to talk to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know quite a few that I refer to are doing just that, and they've expanded their operations. I guess, so to speak, much, much so. Dr Falkle and behavior of rats in New York City, and so it's great to see that that that that's available And I know that the wait time's often a lot shorter for for remote consults right Vet-to-vet remote consults.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, they are, Yes, yes. And that's another thing too is so I actually work with a veterinary technician who is a care and prior academy trainer and a technician, and so we actually do even a triage appointment, so they may see her first and go through that triage and then set up that appointment with me, and so that can be helpful too And many of the veterinary behaviors have that option as well is that you can work with someone and get started on the behavior modification plan and then see the veterinary behaviorist when there's availability.
Speaker 1:And so for the trainers and behavior consultants listening in, what is their best avenue if they want to sort of follow along without taking up too much of your time in a case, So they refer a case to you, but they also want to kind of be part of that team and and helping the animal. What is your suggestions for trainers out there? kind of wondering like should I?
Speaker 1:I don't want to bother them, They're so busy, or I really want to be involved, So like I want to take five hours of their time. So what is what do you? what do you suggest there?
Speaker 2:I would so love if they would communicate and contact and have that open line of communication. You know, i invite them to come to my appointments. You know, if they are, if they want to be involved, i invite them to come to the appointment. You know, as long as the client is okay with that. I think that's a learning experience for everyone And really the biggest thing is just keep the lines of communication open And I'm always happy to help trainers and help them with the plan and talk about what's working, what might not be working. They just have to reach out. You know, i think sometimes they're they worry about that And I don't think they need to worry so much about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Yeah, I guess it's intimidating in some ways, too right To feel like oh. I don't want to say the wrong thing or you know what are they going to think of me. But I think it's just so important to create those connections, you know, and build those relationships, because it just helps. It helps everybody, helps you, helps the trainer, helps the dog, helps the client. So yeah, Exactly.
Speaker 2:We all have one goal in mind. you know we want to help.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:We want to make a difference and we want to improve the quality of life for that, for that animal and for the client, so for the pet and for the client. So I think that's, you know, that's important as well, and so that's why we're all, we're all on the same page. Yes, yes And I think working together is important.
Speaker 1:Yes, Well said. So, speaking of building bridges, sort of in connections with each other, is you know, sometimes in the training community, you, you know, we hear accusations or maybe that's the wrong word but myths about vet behaviors. You know, overprescribing, or it's always meds, and I think people forget that. Well, that's kind of what you guys do. But also, you know, how do you, how do you respond to those kind of you know thoughts about? you know it's just always going to be meds or they're giving medication to every single animal and which is not the truth, right? No?
Speaker 2:it's not the truth at all.
Speaker 1:Always considering the dog's needs, Correct. So how do you respond to that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know, for me especially, i will it's going to really depend on the situation. You know is evaluating does this animal need medications? and they don't all need medications. Some of them do and some are resistant to medications. Some want medications and that animal doesn't need medications, you know, and so we do.
Speaker 2:We do have a conversation about and I will outline why I think their pet may or may not need medications, and we'll go through the list. You know, and I think that's important as well. It's all about communication. The other thing too is is that you know I also have those clients that call and say, well, i want more meds, i want more meds. And I'll be like, what are you doing for behavior modification? Send me some videos. I want to see what your timing is, your techniques, what's your skill set, what have you actually been doing, and evaluate that before I will prescribe more medications or different medications. So I want to see what they're doing, not only on the behavior modification side and the management side, because that's just as important as the medications, and so that's a conversation we often have as well with the client, but also with the trainer, and that's where having that communication with the trainer is important too.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and I think we also have to remember you're often getting the referrals for some of the most difficult extreme cases out there, correct?
Speaker 2:So medications yes.
Speaker 1:And a lot of trainers we kind of serve as that filter. They're like whoa, this, you know, we kind of see something very severe or high level bite history or some behaviors that may seem odd to us. We're like some of us immediately start, oh, can I send that one to the vet behaviorist? and you know, like our hands of it. So again, it creates. I think it also creates a lot of you know.
Speaker 1:The thing that people don't think about too is that the amount of emotional resilience you must have to have, because you're also encountering that, because the case is often reached a point where it's very challenging and difficult for the client, So they're already experiencing a lot of emotions, or it's a very difficult case for that particular trainer and consultant to navigate certain conversations. And so they're now saying, okay, I've done what I can do as a trainer, consultant in this conversation. Yes, So not even with the dog sometimes that the dog is doing what they're doing, but you've got this difficult conversation, perhaps around behavioral euthanasia or you know other options, And then it's, you know, given to you on a plate. You know, here you go, Christine, take this case. And so how do you, where do you find your strength and your resiliency to continue moving forward when, maybe day after day, you're experiencing very emotional cases and the emotional cost and bandwidth that you must have to sort of resupply in yourself every day. What's your secret? I don't really have one.
Speaker 2:I don't really have one. I mean it's just, you know, i think it's hard sometimes because you do get emotionally involved as well. but I try to stay very objective And I really try to educate the client and really help them make the decisions as to what the next step is for that particular animal, based upon what we know and the information that we have and what they've done. And I've got a lot of clients who have done a lot for that animal and sometimes they just need to hear that it's okay. Sometimes they need to hear that there's something wrong with this animal, like on a true physiologic level. And that's the thing too when we talk about these cases too, that are more difficult cases. A lot of times there are a medical component to the behavior too, and so you know, and that's one of the strengths that I have is to be able to help with that medical side or that medical component. But that also goes true for behavior too. A lot of the behavior there are behavior cases where it's a true pathologic cause for that particular behavior, and so sometimes euthanasia is the most humane thing for that animal.
Speaker 2:And it is tough, it is a very tough conversation to have and it's very tough to do that on a day to day. I mean, it's very tough to have these conversations because you learn a lot about people and learn a lot about their life and how. You know a lot about their relationships and a lot about their relationship with their animal And sometimes it can be really frustrating. But it also can be really difficult to kind of distance yourself or, you know, really be able to not take all of their problems and make them your own. So you know, you do have to make sure you make time for yourself. You know we have to make sure that we continue to do things that we like to do as a veterinarian, as a person, you know I like to travel, i like to read. You know, and making sure that I'm taking time for myself as well and not always worrying about everybody else's problems Is that that's the best way that I can do it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you have and I've been having, for whatever reason, again this season I've been having the same conversation with a lot of our guests and there's a healthy dose of empathy, of course, that we all need to have to be able to do this work successfully, but there's also a healthy disconnect. Yes, here's an interesting thing and I keep mentioning it during the show, but there's something about, you know, the folks that I see working not just short term, but long term, working with aggression cases. So 10 years plus and still being able to do it day after day. There's just something in the water that there's something, and I was and I was I think I first talked to Trisha McConnell about this because she had been doing for decades in Karen London and a few others, trisha McMillan, and you see, like there's something. There's like this inner calmness, this inner zen to be able to handle, you know, dealing with those emotional conversations but also being able to deal with a dog snarling and snapping in our face in those moments that, you know, sometimes it happens.
Speaker 2:We can't take it personally. Yeah, yeah, i think that's a good way to put it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but there's something we need to bottle there. I think Yes, well, no, it's actually true.
Speaker 2:And I, to be honest with you, if you, when I started out as a new graduate, one of the reasons that I'm in behavior is because euthanasias were very difficult for me as a new graduate And so finding help and one of my first patients as a you know, a baby veterinarian per se, was a puppy that I saw, from you know, eight weeks old until I euthanized him at a year after he bit the owner. So, you know, part of the reason I'm in behavior is because I wanted to find help, because I didn't know all the answers then, and so, you know, i've spent a lifetime of looking for the answers, helping you know how can I help more patients and how can I reduce euthanasias If I, if you know, i know I'm not saying that I want to stop them, because there's definitely situations where that needs that's the best option, the most humane option. But, you know, are there other options that we can offer, because so many people may not know there are options. You know, i was in the shelter. I've done shelter work for years as well, and you know, in 2020, i was a director of behavior services and it amazed me how many behavior cases would come through the door and they've never sought help or even new help was available to them.
Speaker 2:So you know, i want to make sure that people know that help is is available and there are options that they have. you know, and there's no judgment when it comes to behavior. You know we don't. we're not judging them and we want to help them make the best choices for everybody involved. And I think if, as long as we're doing that, then I have some inner peace, you know as to what, to what I'm doing, because you know, i feel like you know, as long as, as long as I'm able to give those options, that's helping me feel better about what I see, because you're right, oh, another fear, aggressive dog?
Speaker 2:Oh no, yeah, yeah, but. But. But the other thing is, is I, you know, one of the things is I, since I wear so many hats, i do have the option of taking breaks, you know. So I, you know, i get to travel and things like that, so that gives me, you know, a little bit more time for me. Time, Yes, and and so yeah, so that's also helpful as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, some really good tips there, for sure. So I do want to take a moment to supply resources for the audience, whether it's resources you suggest or things that you're working on, or where they can find you as well. So, if you want to jump into those kind of two things, first maybe starting with your favorite resources that aren't yours, and then what you're working on Yes.
Speaker 2:So my one of my favorite resources is the decoding your dog book that was written by the American College of Veterinary Behaviorist. I think that's an excellent resource and and there's so much information packed into that book. They have one for cats as well. So for the cat lovers out there, decoding your cat relatively new, but I think that's a good resource as well. We are actually writing a lot of free information and they're directed for clients, so for the general public the veterinary partner articles and you can get them on veterinarypartnercom and they're completely free.
Speaker 2:A lot of veterinarians will send clients there. It's not just behavior. There's all different articles about medical conditions and things like that, and so it's a really good resource. And one of the things that I'm trying to do is is really target what I think is common in veterinary practice general practice questions that most pet owners have and veterinarians have about behavior, and making sure we're writing these articles so that they're available, because these are also in the resource library and on websites veterinary websites that have these libraries. So I think those are all good resources. There's also the cattle dog publishing. Cattledogpublishingcom has a lot of resources, has a lot of Sophia's older material is all on there And then the newer stuff that we've been writing and putting together for puppies. I really like ultimatepuppycom. I think that's a great free resource for clients as well. Those are some of the main resources that I will send people to.
Speaker 1:Excellent, and where can people find you other than the cattle dog publishing? So if you have your main site that you send people to, Caldervbscom C-A-L-D-E-R-V.
Speaker 2:As in veterinary B, as in behavior S, as in servicecom.
Speaker 1:Excellent, excellent And, as usual, i'll be sure to link all of that in the show notes for everybody. Christine, thank you so much for coming on the episode. I learned a lot. That's packed with great information, so I really appreciate you coming on And I look forward to seeing you at the Aggression in Dogs conference later this year as well.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:I learned a lot chatting with Dr Calder And I hope you had some nice takeaways as well. It's always such a pleasure having these enlightening conversations with our friends from the veterinary behavior community. And don't forget, head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression, from the Aggression in Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts, and even in an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of aggression cases, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks again for listening and stay well, my friends.