In this episode, we navigate through the difficult topic of behavioral euthanasia in aggression cases. Our expert guests Trish McMillan and Sue Alexander share their expertise in animal behavior, sheltering, and the incredible support group they co-founded, Losing Lulu. We also explore the caregiver burden, the impact it can have on a family, and how to deal with criticism from those who do not understand the situation.
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
The Aggression in Dogs Master Course
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
About Sue:
Sue has over 25 years experience training and handling dogs, both her own and those of her clients. Sue has been teaching dog obedience lessons since 1993. She has participated in a wide variety of dog sports including obedience, tracking, retrieving, Schutzhund, nose work, and agility with her own dogs and those of her clients. In the past year, Hawkeye has joined Sue as her most recent canine partner. Outside of the dog training world, Sue is an avid outdoorsman, participating in camping, hunting, fishing, and canoeing and she is also an enthusiastic equestrian athlete. Sue enjoys riding her gelding, Kahless, and learning the finer points of dressage.
Sue founded Dogs in the Park and she was a student at the University of Guelph, and she co-owns that with her husband John. Sue is particularly interested in the rehabilitation of aggressive dogs and the resolution of behavioural problems with dogs in family homes. In 2003, Sue passed the Certificate of Professional Dog Training and in the fall of 2004, she was accepted into the International Association of Animal Behaviour Consultants as a clinical member. More recently she passed the Certificate of Behaviour Consulting Canine, Knowledge Assessed.
Sue is a well respected speaker, both on line and in person and has delivered programming in Canada, the USA, the United Kingdom and Ireland. Sue has delivered webinars, seminars and lectures on Applied Behaviour Analysis, Resolving Behaviour Problems and Working with Clients.
https://www.dogsinthepark.ca/
About Trish:
Trish McMillan is an internationally-known speaker on the topics of animal behavior and sheltering. She holds a master of science degree in animal behavior, and is a certified professional dog trainer. Trish first walked into a shelter in the mid 90’s and has been hooked on shelter behavior ever since. She worked for the ASPCA for nearly eight years, first as director of animal behavior at their NYC shelter, and then with the field team, helping assess and rehabilitate dogs from cruelty cases, dogfighting and hoarding situations.
Trish owns McMillan Animal Behavior in North Carolina, where she lives in a tiny house on her farm, Pibble Hill. Trish currently shares her life with many animals of five species.
Trish’s professional work includes training and behavior modification work with dogs, cats, and horses. She speaks and consults nationally and internationally on animal sheltering issues, dog, cat, and horse behavior, dog aggression, and defensive handling. She also runs a popular online shelter dog behavior mentorship and other courses through the Shelter Behavior Hub, and is one of the founders of the behavioral euthanasia grief support group, “Losing Lulu.”
In this episode, we navigate through the difficult topic of behavioral euthanasia in aggression cases. Our expert guests Trish McMillan and Sue Alexander share their expertise in animal behavior, sheltering, and the incredible support group they co-founded, Losing Lulu. We also explore the caregiver burden, the impact it can have on a family, and how to deal with criticism from those who do not understand the situation.
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
The Aggression in Dogs Master Course
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
About Sue:
Sue has over 25 years experience training and handling dogs, both her own and those of her clients. Sue has been teaching dog obedience lessons since 1993. She has participated in a wide variety of dog sports including obedience, tracking, retrieving, Schutzhund, nose work, and agility with her own dogs and those of her clients. In the past year, Hawkeye has joined Sue as her most recent canine partner. Outside of the dog training world, Sue is an avid outdoorsman, participating in camping, hunting, fishing, and canoeing and she is also an enthusiastic equestrian athlete. Sue enjoys riding her gelding, Kahless, and learning the finer points of dressage.
Sue founded Dogs in the Park and she was a student at the University of Guelph, and she co-owns that with her husband John. Sue is particularly interested in the rehabilitation of aggressive dogs and the resolution of behavioural problems with dogs in family homes. In 2003, Sue passed the Certificate of Professional Dog Training and in the fall of 2004, she was accepted into the International Association of Animal Behaviour Consultants as a clinical member. More recently she passed the Certificate of Behaviour Consulting Canine, Knowledge Assessed.
Sue is a well respected speaker, both on line and in person and has delivered programming in Canada, the USA, the United Kingdom and Ireland. Sue has delivered webinars, seminars and lectures on Applied Behaviour Analysis, Resolving Behaviour Problems and Working with Clients.
https://www.dogsinthepark.ca/
About Trish:
Trish McMillan is an internationally-known speaker on the topics of animal behavior and sheltering. She holds a master of science degree in animal behavior, and is a certified professional dog trainer. Trish first walked into a shelter in the mid 90’s and has been hooked on shelter behavior ever since. She worked for the ASPCA for nearly eight years, first as director of animal behavior at their NYC shelter, and then with the field team, helping assess and rehabilitate dogs from cruelty cases, dogfighting and hoarding situations.
Trish owns McMillan Animal Behavior in North Carolina, where she lives in a tiny house on her farm, Pibble Hill. Trish currently shares her life with many animals of five species.
Trish’s professional work includes training and behavior modification work with dogs, cats, and horses. She speaks and consults nationally and internationally on animal sheltering issues, dog, cat, and horse behavior, dog aggression, and defensive handling. She also runs a popular online shelter dog behavior mentorship and other courses through the Shelter Behavior Hub, and is one of the founders of the behavioral euthanasia grief support group, “Losing Lulu.”
The topic of behavioral euthanasia can often be controversial and stir many emotions in our community. Trish McMillan is back, along with our wonderful colleague, sue Alexander, to inform us why this is a topic that needs to be discussed more so that we can address the controversy as well as dispel many of the misconceptions. Trish and Sue also talk about their amazing support group Losing Lulu. For anyone that has gone through the journey of living with a dog where behavioral euthanasia was the ultimate outcome, trish is an internationally known speaker on the topics of animal behavior and sheltering. She holds a master of science degree in animal behavior and is a certified professional dog trainer. Trish worked for the ASPCA for nearly eight years, first as director of animal behavior at the New York City Shelter and then with the field team, helping assess and rehabilitate dogs from cruelty cases, dog fighting and hoarding situations. She speaks and consults nationally and internationally on animal sheltering issues, dog, cat and horse behavior, dog aggression and defensive handling. She also runs a popular online shelter dog behavior mentorship and other courses through the Shelter Behavior Hub and is one of the co-founders of that Losing Lulu Facebook support group. Sue Alexander has over 25 years of experience training and handling dogs, both her and those of her clients. Sue has been teaching dog obedience classes since 1993, she has participated in a wide variety of dog sports, including obedience, tracking, retrieving, schutz and nose work and agility, with her own dogs and those of her clients. She founded Dogs in the Park and she was a student at the University of Guelph and she cones that with her husband, john. She is particularly interested in the rehabilitation of aggressive dogs and the resolution of behavioral problems with dogs and family homes. Sue is a well respected speaker, both online and in person, and has delivered programming in Canada, the USA, the UK and Ireland. Sue has delivered webinars, seminars and lectures on applied behavior analysis, resolving behavioral problems and working with clients. And don't forget, you can support this podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there are a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression in Dogs conference happening from September 29th through October 1st 2023 in Chicago, illinois, with both in person and online options. You can also learn more about the Aggression in Dogs master course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. Hey guys, welcome to the bitey end of the dog.
Speaker 1:I'm here with two of my good friends, trish McMillan and Sue Alexander. I usually jump into people's bios at the beginning of the show, but I'm going to tell you a little bit of my personal experiences with both of these guys. I've known them for a while. Trish is my partner in crime on the workshop circuit. She's actually helped me get out onto the speaking stage and I give much of that credit to her on teaching me so much about behavior in general in the shelter world as well. Trish is a guru in working with the ASPCA. She's got the masters in animal behavior. She has McMillan animal behavior, which is in North Carolina and also is on Pibble Hill, which is this really cool place If you ever want to go visit this magical place with all kinds of different animals, or you can learn about horses, cats, dogs, chickens, goats and so many other critters. I'm really excited to have Trish here.
Speaker 1:Sue I've known back way back from the IW ABC days, sort of like a mentor in my early days of the old Yahoo groups. Sue was always very helpful in staring me in the right direction with some of my behavior misconceptions. I would say We have this running jokes who's sort of like the hardcore Trish, because you guys might not know It was broken foot or broken where did you break? You broke something.
Speaker 2:I broke my leg for all the ligaments of my foot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sue's hardcore. She's like, oh, let me just throw a little spit and mud in that. Two days later she's traveling around and walking around on this thing. Every time Sue's got something going on, it's two days later she's up and around and moving. It's definitely very hardcore behavior, but Sue's dog's in the park up in Canada and we're going to be talking about more about that as well. But we're going to drive into the conversation of something that really is sometimes difficult to talk about, something that needs to be talked about more though in our industry. I know the conversation's been ongoing for the last few years more readily, but it's definitely something that often is kind of a tough path for people to navigate, especially for trainers talking to clients. I do want to give a content warning in the beginning for anybody that might be considering behavioral euthanasia or maybe has had to experience this previously, that we will be talking about behavioral euthanasia throughout the episode.
Speaker 2:Can we add in the non-content warning of, even though we're going to talk about something really, really difficult, trisha and I are happy people and we have a lot of fun and we are playful. That's a really important part of how we approach behavioral euthanasia. So, yes, i want us to be really aware of this as a sensitive topic. But, mike, there's something else we've got to keep in mind, and that is the animals that we are talking about are really, really important to the people, the people that we work with. So it's really important that you understand that, although this is a sad topic and it's a difficult topic, there's also moments of enormous joy. The people who come to us that we help with their dogs and sometimes cats and giraffes and llamas and elephants and hippopotamia those animals are really important to people, and so when we're talking about this, we may have a moment where we get sad and I might cry. I've cried on camera more than twice about this and I'm used to it, trisha's used to it. You might cry, it's okay, i don't mind. It's okay too if we laugh. You know there's been some really funny things that have happened that are surrounding behavioral euthanasia, and what I want people to understand about behavioral euthanasia is that the range of emotions. That's cool, it's okay.
Speaker 2:So it's okay to laugh about the time that I had to take a dog for behavioral euthanasia. I loaded him up in the back of the car and we drove to the vet and on the way to the veterinarians he got into a box of motor oil and he bit into it. Then in my rear view mirror I see arcs of motor oil on the inside of my car. You know, although it was a really sad day when we lost Alex I mean it was tragic It was shortly after I got married. It was my husband's dog and it was a behavioral euthanasia We tried to attack one of my staff members.
Speaker 2:It was a horrible day in my life, and every time John and I talk about it, we also laugh about cleaning up all that motor oil. It was a whole case. It was 12 liters of motor oil, and so I think it's really important that we understand that when we're talking about behavioral euthanasia, let's let ourselves be emotional in all aspects. It's okay to laugh and it's okay to laugh and cry at the same time, and it's okay to say I love this animal and I hate him so much And he's hurt me so badly and he's so important to me and my family. That is actually normal and it's really really cool that we've got that opportunity to experience that range of emotion, And it's something Chris and I talk about a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a really important point and I'm glad you brought that up, because we often think of behavioral euthanasia as just the negative emotional aspects of it. But we need to, as you mentioned, bring in the positive side to sort of balance things out for ourselves as well and to survive through that. Shish was on I think it was on four years ago, three, four years ago on season one, where we were talking about behavioral euthanasia and the formation of the group Losing Lulu, the Facebook group, which has grown tremendously since then and evolved. So, trish, can you tell us a little bit how that came about and sort of what you've seen evolve over the years?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's been. Is it five years or four years we've been doing?
Speaker 1:losing. This will be season four, so yeah, well, you had started it, though, before that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think it's four years since we lost Lulu And the thing with these dogs, who are euthanized for behavior, is if they were 100% aggressive 100% of the time, it would be an easy decision. But they all have the great sides and they all they tend to be very smart dogs. They tend to have some really wonderful qualities, and Lulu was a dog that I brought from a shelter. I brought her home as a foster I occasionally foster dogs And she was just this sweet, happy, wiggly dog And she'd recently had a litter of puppies and she was looking pretty rough And I thought bring you home, get you spayed, get you cleaned up and you're going to be a beautiful dog. And when I got her home, it took a while. It took a number of months before it came out that she had some issues with other dogs And at first they were just mild issues and she was picky about her friends and she hadn't done any damage And she was still in the category of let's find her home with a maybe she doesn't want a dog roommate.
Speaker 3:But on one really terrible night New Year's Eve 2018, i believe she attacked my smaller dog, my little Puerto Rican street dog, in a way that was. She was out to kill her. She was not going to let go. Fortunately I had a trainer friend over. It took two of us and a break stick to get them split up And she did $800 worth of damage to my smaller dog in the couple of minutes that it took us And thank goodness we had the right tools to break up that fight And I called the rescue group I was working through.
Speaker 3:I said this is no longer a dog that meets our criteria for adoptability And they agreed to pay for behavioral euthanasia. So we had a lelly in one car and we had Lulu in another car and we took her in and had her euthanized And my friend who was with me was just like don't say anything about this on the internet, just lie to the other's friends, tell them she got adopted. Let the whole thing die down. And that is not my style. I'm a terrible liar. They would want pictures. I'm not going to be able to Photoshop Lulu into pictures. So I waited a few days before I told the story and I told it on my social media first and my friends understand.
Speaker 3:If Trish McMillan makes a behavioral euthanasia decision, there's probably good reason for it. But Theodore has 40,000 friends who just love pitbulls and Lulu was a pitbull-type dog And most of them were understanding but it was more sort of pet people or beginner rescue people who hadn't had to deal with a dog like Lulu before. And I got a lot of grief from that contingent and I was called a murderer. I was called worse things I'm not going to repeat them on your podcast And just got so much judgment for making this call And I mentioned it to Sue and Sue said you know we need a place to talk about this And I was like, yeah, and I need a pony and a unicorn And that's fine, but you don't say that to Sue Alexander. So take it, sue.
Speaker 2:Well, my favorite comment came from a it was probably a pet owner who was pretty passionate about pets And she said you didn't even consult a trainer. Love that comment Because you know exactly what trainer did. She figure was going to have more information than Trish. But you know, it reflects what we go through when we face a behavioral euthanasia, and that is that most people don't understand. And in fact I started losing Lulu after being on a thread where somebody said we should have a support group And somebody else said, well, that's a good idea. And somebody else said, well, that's a good idea, yeah, we should really have a support group. And it just kept. All these people kept piling on.
Speaker 2:And I'm sitting there looking at my computer and thinking to myself well, if we should, why don't we? And if we don't, what can I do about that? And, as with many good ideas, it started with how hard can that be? And so I started a Facebook group with the intent of it might be a couple of hundred people, like you know, maybe my good friends, you know, maybe Michael join and maybe Trish will join and maybe I'll be there. You know, we can all hang out and drink coffee and talk about. You know how hard this is. Well, within the first week we have 400 people And I remember having just an absolute panic moment of looking at this and going I don't know how I'm going to hope cope with this many people. Two weeks later we had 1000. And it's been growing ever since. We're almost at 24,000 now.
Speaker 2:And what I did? as you know, mike and Trish knows, i live with a traumatic brain injury, which means that sometimes my screen time is very limited And my screen time was really limited at that point. So I was able to do, you know, a little bit of screen time, but it very quickly became apparent that we needed to moderate this And we have the most incredible group of people who help us to moderate this. We've got one person who pretty much manages all the people who asked to come in And we have a whole bunch of other people who managed the post queue, because all the posts are moderated. And we have a motto.
Speaker 2:one of our volunteers made up a motto And it has changed my life. It has absolutely changed who I am. It's changed what I am, it changed how I practice And that is keep it kind. And my gosh, if all we did in our whole lives was kept things kind. Imagine what we could do. And the thing for me is I don't have to imagine it because every single day I get the information of keeping it kind matters. It matters a lot, and we have created the kindest, most thoughtful place that you can imagine. Yeah, it is strictly strictly, strictly moderated.
Speaker 3:If somebody comes in and they're like why didn't you try this? Bye-bye, you cannot be on losing Lulu if you're going to second guess it, because what is the person going to do? Dig up their dead dog, reanimate them, get a different trainer, try a different technique, it's too late. Even if you don't agree with every single decision that's been made, these animals are gone, and it's not just dogs. We have cats, horses, rabbits, snakes, all kinds of animals. They're all dearly loved, they're all missed. People are suffering And second guessing is not going to help anything. The kindest thing we can do is let them tell their story, be free of judgment. And it is a really unique place on the internet. It is on Facebook, it is not anywhere else at this point, but we do have a website.
Speaker 2:No, that's true, we have a website now, i didn't know that We have losinglulucom.
Speaker 2:It's brand new. Well, it's not brand new anymore. It's now about six months old. We did that because we wanted to make sure that we maintained control and copyright of our content, so we have what we call Hippo. App says And Trish, you're going to be very excited. I went to the mat today. I'm in New York City. I went to the mat. You told me, mike, that I could go off topic a little bit. Oh, you're just going to be so excited.
Speaker 2:So dangerous It is so dangerous, it's so, so dangerous, but it's so good I got something. It's name is William. I did not know that Lulu's partner was going to be called William. Where did William go? Okay, tell them about. Hippo. App says well, i find William.
Speaker 3:So one thing that Sue is really good at is creating communities and, you know, getting everybody pulling in the same direction. She has wrangled this group. We call them the horrors are group of people who moderate the list And we are all pulling in the same direction And we all agree on rules And we have meetings and we have coffee, and one of the wonderful things she's done to keep the culture of the group alive is to write these essays And she calls them Hippo essays. She picked in an animal that we are unlikely to see, on Lulu, and she talks about keeping it kind via the Hippo essays and why we have the culture we have, and they're brilliant, they're wonderful.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great Yeah.
Speaker 3:What is that made out of? That looks delicious.
Speaker 2:It is a magnet. I actually get Do hippos, two hippos there. So at the mat, i didn't know this. At the mat, their mascot is a hippo And the hippo's name is William And I needed a hippo magnet. And, mike, i will take a picture of this and send it to you. This should be the icon for this particular episode. I will, i'll take a picture and send it. I'm so excited about this. And, trish, i got a hippo postcard to send you and everything.
Speaker 2:Because, you know, i wanted to choose an animal that we could talk about in the abstract, so that we could talk about. You know, if we want to talk about training and I talk about dog training then the person who has lost their cat is going to say, well, that doesn't apply to me. But if I want to talk about training in the abstract and I want to say, you know, yeah, we may not have chosen the best training method for our Lulu and maybe that contributed, but it doesn't matter, because now that your Lulu is gone, you can take that lesson and you can move on. And so one of my hippo essays I talk about the importance of not naming names, because it's really hard on the internet If somebody you know goes online and says, oh, i worked with Sue Alexander and she told me I should kill my dog. That's going to hurt me professionally And in fact that's not what I would ever say to a client.
Speaker 2:So when I'm talking about behavioral euthanasia with a client, i will say I think we should talk about behavioral euthanasia. I do not say you must kill your dog, and so one of our rules is you can't name names. And we needed somebody to talk about this in the abstract. So I said, if you had a hippopotamus and you went to a very famous hippopotamus trainer and then your hippopotamus flipped over a tourist boat and ate the firefighters who came to rescue everybody, that's kind of a funny way of talking about it.
Speaker 2:And so we sort of ended up with the hippopotamus as our model. And I did not know that many people refer to pit bulls as house hippos And I had no idea, and so I just put this out there. And so we refer to my essays and I've got about I don't know a dozen of them that talk about various aspects of behavioral euthanasia. One of them is running around and saying I worked with Trish, i worked with Sue, i worked with Mike, i worked with whomever And then saying you know, and my dog died. That's not useful information when you're grieving.
Speaker 3:You get so much shame and blame from every other place that we try to get people to tell their stories, but without blaming the breeder, blaming the shelter, blaming the trainer, blaming them. A lot of them blame themselves And it's just. It's so painful Reading the cases on losing Lulu and if you are a dog trainer or a shelter person you are welcome to join. Just answer the screening questions appropriately and honestly. They are some of the most fascinating case studies you will ever see And so many of them are so similar. You know people get a puppy from wherever There's some early signs and social maturity hits. It often gets worse. They go through a process of different trainers, different meds, different veterinarians And we all end up in the same place. Like it's one of those romance novels. You know they all end the same way.
Speaker 3:Lulu's story is kind of all in the same way, but it's been really interesting that people have come from all over the world. The animals have come from all different places. They are all different breeds of dogs But the stories are so similar And a lot of the feelings are really similar And I talked on the last bitey end of the dog. I told my personal story. If you want to go back to that one. I'm not going to tell it again because I will start crying, but a lot of the feelings are really similar And I try to prepare people, whether you're in the shelter, whether it's a personal client who is going through a behavioral euthanasia.
Speaker 3:One thing is you're going to want to try everything, and the person that I co-owned my dog with made an actual list and put it on the fridge, and every time we got near the bottom of the list I'd be like okay, i guess we have to make the decision. He would find one more thing Like we haven't tried this medication or we haven't tried more exercise, or haven't tried the Midnight Walk Club, like there is always going to be one more thing to try. And I like Sue's line you don't have to try everything, you just have to try everything that is reasonable for you.
Speaker 1:Alright, we're going to take a short break and we'll be back to hear more from Trish and Sue. Hey friends, it's me again and I hope you are enjoying this episode. You may have figured out that something I deeply care about is helping dogs with aggression issues live less stressful, less confined, more enriched and overall happier lives with their guardians. Aggression is so often misunderstood and we can change that through education, like we receive from so many of the wonderful guests on this podcast. In addition to the podcast, i have two other opportunities for anyone looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, which include the Aggression and Dogs Master Course and the Aggression and Dogs Conference. If you want to learn more about the most comprehensive course on aggression taught anywhere in the world, head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the Dog Pros tab, and then the Master Course. The course gives you access to 23 modules on everything from assessment to safety, to medical issues, to the behavior change plans we use in a number of different cases, including lessons taught by Dr Chris Pockel, kim Brophy and Jessica Dolce. You'll also receive access to a private Facebook group with over a thousand of your fellow colleagues and dog pros, all working with aggression cases. After you finish the course, you'll also gain access to a private live group mentor session portal with me where we practice working through cases together. And if you need CEUs, we've got you covered. We're approved for just about every major training and behavior credential out there. This is truly the flagship course offered on aggression and dogs, and it's perfect for pet pros that want to set themselves apart and take their knowledge and expertise to the next level, or even for pet guardians who are seeking information to help their own dog.
Speaker 1:And don't forget to join me for the fourth annual Aggression and Dogs Conference, which is happening online and in person from Chicago, illinois, september 29th through October 1st 2023. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you might have heard on the podcast, including Sue Sternberg, dr Tim Lewis, dr Christine Calder, sindoor Pangal, cyrus Strumming, sean Will, masa Nishimuta and many, many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and veterinary behavior cases to working with aggression in shelter environments and even intra-household dog-dog aggression. And I wanted to take a moment to thank one of our sponsors for the conference. As a family of world-class trainers, fense Dog Sports Academy provides expert and accessible instruction for competitive dog sports using the most progressive training methods and positive reinforcement techniques. Through their online platform, students are able to access professional dog training, no matter your location or pup skill level. Fdsa believes the bond between the dog and human is a proud and life-changing partnership, and they'll work with you to develop a respectful and kind relationship with your furry best friend. Check out FDSA at FENSEDogSportsAcademycom.
Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Trish McMillan and Sue Alexander to talk about the wonderful resources they've created around this difficult topic. I want to also jump into, though, and just take a moment to give kudos to you guys and to your team for creating such a safe space and the creative ways you're doing it too. Kindness, you guys know, is a word I use quite often in my messaging, and I can't imagine the monumental task of having to create a safe space for 24,000 people discussing probably one of the most difficult topics on the planet to discuss, so I just wanted to make sure that you are receiving the recognition that that deserves, because it is not an easy task. I mean, to run any kind of Facebook group on any topic is hard enough as it is.
Speaker 3:And it is our mod team. I give all the kudos to them there.
Speaker 2:It's the most amazing kind people on the planet And you know like it's so important to understand that being kind actually takes fairly firm hand. So you know, if somebody says, well, you should have they will get that moderated. That comment will be moderated out. Often we will have discussions on the moderation list about a post and it'll be a post that we kind of look at it and we say, okay, is this going to contribute to grief support? And often what we come to is that's not actually grief support, that's anger, and it's not misplaced anger.
Speaker 2:It's fine to be angry And it's fine to be angry in ways that are productive. Anger should help you to know what you need to change. And it's fine to say I'm really angry that this happened. I am really angry at my breeder because she knew that mom was aggressive. And or I'm really angry at the rescue because they knew the dog had severe separation anxiety. Or even I'm really angry at the advice that I got from my trainer. But what's not appropriate is to use Lulu for retribution, because we do need to process anger. I'm angry at lots of things And to be able to say you know, i am angry that I didn't get a job or I didn't get an opportunity, that's fine. But if I say, oh well, and that's all you know, i thought Trish was my best friend and it's all Trish's fault, that's just going to hurt Trish And that's not going to make our friendship better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm glad you're bringing up the emotions aspect because I kind of want to take a deeper dive into that And it seems to be the theme of the the seasons episodes actually. well, you'll hear some of the other guests I have on were diving much more into the human side of things. We talk about dogs, of course, but the human side is really an element that is a focus of the show this year. So I'd love to get your takeaways on. you know you had mentioned anger as one component. that can be an emotion that we experienced, but some of the other ones that often don't get talked about in, when somebody's gone through this decision or considering this decision and all of their emotions that they have to go through, so things like guilt and, you know, a sadness, grief, you know all of those things start to pile up. So what have you learned over the last few years? now that you've kind of got a huge data size, sample size of really seeing people's emotions, can you kind of give?
Speaker 2:us some of your takeaways there. Grief and relief.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is a weird kind of grief, like if you put your old animal down. It is mostly grief. His dog has been with me 16 years. He's been with me through all of these life changes And I have to say goodbye.
Speaker 3:There may be a little bit of relief that I don't have to get up in the middle of the night to let her out six times anymore. But with a behavioral euthanasia the grief can be so profound because the animals usually leaving us much before their time And you get your life back. You feel relieved that when Chinook left I thought I could have people over for dinner again. I could go for dog walks during daylight hours I could. I don't have to shut off all the lights on Halloween and turn off all the stereo and just pretend I'm not home so that he doesn't blow up over and over.
Speaker 3:And then there's the guilt at feeling relieved that your best friend is no longer with you. So it's such a and I think many of us with a behavioral euthanasia. The good days seem so much more good. I made the decision to euthanasia twice and the first time he had such a great day. He had his last walk, he had his last steak. There was no aggression. There was no and we chickened out. We called the vet right before the appointment and said we cannot do it. And I think when you have a good day, when you're living with an animal who has some very profoundly terrible moments, those good days feel so much better than the good day with my lovely friendly dogs I have now. They're all good days, they're all kind of the same, but when it's like this it's a whole different feeling.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the other thing about the grief and relief aspect of it is that when I look at the level to which some of the people, on losing Lulu, go in order to accommodate the needs of their profoundly, profoundly ill animals and I want to be very clear that I believe that we are not euthanizing healthy animals, We are euthanizing animals who are not healthy, because health includes behavior, And if you're not behaviorally healthy, if you're not able to live in a normal situation, even with support, then we are alleviating suffering when we euthanize. And so I think about one case that was on Lulu about a week ago, and it was a lady who was talking about how guilty she felt for euthanizing a dog that they had kept going for about five years. They raised it from puppyhood and at about the age of two, so social maturity right there. The dog began to become aggressive and it became progressively more aggressive As of last November. During the American Thanksgiving holiday she moved out of their family home into a trailer on their property with the dog so that the dog could keep breathing, But it meant that she left her children and her husband and her other dogs living in the house and she was living separate from them. It meant that her family was removed of having her there at Thanksgiving because the dog was not able to be left for long periods of time. The dog was self-injurious, I believe, as well as being dangerously aggressive For the Christmas holidays. Her family is very much a family that celebrates Christmas and they like to have guests over. Her family had Christmas without her because she needed to be in the trailer with the dog.
Speaker 2:When she finally got to the point where she realized that this stopgap measure didn't meet the dog's needs and the dog attacked her and she could no longer care for the dog, she euthanized it and she says I don't feel like I did enough. I think one of the things that we have to realize about this is that when you live with an animal with a profound behavior problem for a very long time, normal isn't normal. I had a horse that I euthanized for a behavior problem. She was very dangerous to me And Trisha and I talked about behavioral euthanasia with kayak many, many, many times, like for years, And when it finally became apparent that I was not going to be able to resolve this and I decided to euthanize her, I was able to say I am going to give her the last couple of weeks and it's going to be wonderful for her And I will tell you what it made the grief relief cycle so much better even though it feels like it wouldn't because on her last day she had five pounds of carrots and a pound of gummy spearments and she had her friends and she got brushed and she got to eat grass and all the things that a horse loves to do.
Speaker 2:And when I look back on that, I don't have the memory of having had to move out of my house and miss great family events, because there are so many confusing, conflicting parts of grief there, because not only do you end up grieving the loss of the animal and the loss of the potential of the relationship, you also end up grieving things like that lady is going to have missed her children's Christmas in 2022. Forever That's gone and there is a grief to that as well, And I think that that's one of the more complex things that I've become aware of in the last couple of years is that we don't just grieve the animal. We grieve the years we didn't go on vacation and we grieve that we couldn't go to our nieces christening because we couldn't leave the dog alone, or we couldn't have people over to celebrate, you know, our spouse's graduation from university, or you know there's all these things that it's not just the loss of the dog's life that we grieve, It's everything that surrounds that.
Speaker 3:Well, the caregiver burden is huge. Mike and I had some conversations with Kelly Valentine at the Indiana seminar. She's written about the caregiver burden on living with profoundly behaviorally disturbed animals And it is not uncommon for somebody to be sleeping on the couch with the dog and the other person to be sleeping upstairs with the kids And it breaks up relationships. Like I said, my ex he became an ex over this dog. Part of it was I was okay with behavioral euthanasia before. He was Like there's no such thing as you both agreeing on it on the same time. So if there's more than one person involved in the animal's life, often one person comes to the decision first and that can cause so much friction.
Speaker 1:That's such a good point Yeah.
Speaker 2:When I'm counseling families about a dog with a serious behavior problem. One of the things that I like to talk to the clients about is that we have to come to an agreement that everybody is comfortable with when we're talking about living with an animal with a profound behavior problem, because I have actually had about 10 families where the adults have ended up in divorce because of the dog. And the one that I often think about the most is was two Huskies that I worked with And they were trying to eat each other literally eat each other And they had terrible damaging fights over and over again And the family kind of put up with this And when I say eat, i do mean consume. That was what they were after They had terrible damaging fights And then the family had a baby And mom decided I can't live with this with a baby, i'm perfectly content living with it when we don't have a child in the house, and that actually ended the relationship because dad said I'm not going to euthanize a dog that is in elderly And thank you.
Speaker 2:Ru Ru has opinions on that too, And it's something that I think is really important that we talk about with families is that you know what is the impact on your children, What is the impact on your spouse, What's the impact on the relationship that you have with the important people in your life. It's really important because we can't live solely vicariously for the dog.
Speaker 1:It's not appropriate and you're bringing up so many salient points, because what I'm thinking about as well is, you know, you sometimes see comments in the training community About this particular method Causing more behavioral euthanasias, or this particular tool or something like that, which, when you think about it's pretty ridiculous because we, what it's not factoring in is all of these things you're talking about, all of these factors that are so unique to each individual and to each dog, to each family That impacts that decision. It's not, you know, training matters, but it's just such it. When you take a step back, it's such a small piece of the entire puzzle of when it comes to having a dog with aggression issues right, and in that regard, people will face a lot of criticism from others, whether it's before or while they're trying to make the decision or After they've made the decision. So what are some coping strategies or strategies really to deal with those, those folks that are throwing hate at you? I'm sure you've seen some strategies talked about in the group, but also like what are your experiences there?
Speaker 3:I Am big on deleting and blocking what I did when I was getting hate on my dog's page. I'm not gonna leave those comments up. Calling me a murderer like that is Not relevant to what. What's going on here. That's not just hurting me, that's hurting everybody else who has gone through this as well. So I am a big fan of not giving any air to these arguments, and we certainly do that on Lulu too. Just if you are not here for support, you are not here.
Speaker 2:I Also like to think that it's important that we start fostering good ally behavior And we hear that tossed around a lot, but this is really really concrete in the training community. Up until very recently, saying I spoke about Behavioral euthanasia to my client has been very taboo and I've gotten a lot of grief about it. I know many, many years ago, at the first I double ABC conference, i was one of the speakers. I was talking about service dogs and I said at the end of it They were asking you know, what else should we have conversations about? I said we need to talk about be euthanasia and I got a lot of pushback From people at the conference that that wasn't our purview, that wasn't Appropriate, that we should never be talking about behavioral euthanasia and I thought, okay, but if I don't talk about it, what am I supposed to do with my client who has two Huskies who are giving damaging bites, who are injuring people, who are trying to pull them apart, and now there's a crawling baby in that house. What am I supposed to suggest to them? What am I supposed to talk to to them about? because that isn't something that is particularly safe And it's not something that I can recommend re-homing and so for a long time We were in limbo where people just didn't want to talk about it.
Speaker 2:And I think now We're at a point now where you know, when you're at the conferences and you're talking to other Trainers, and a trainer says you know, hey, i've got this really really, really difficult case and I don't know what to do about it. And it's an Australian shepherd crossed with a Norwegian gutter hound. And you know, and you go well, what an interesting cross that might be. There is no such thing as a Norwegian gutter hound as far as I know. That's my mythical breed that I use when I I talk about sort of theoretical dogs. But somebody says I've got this, this dog on my caseload and you know, the dog got loose in a park and it Caused a damaging bite, and you know, and this and this and this and, and the dog keeps getting loose. And I want to talk about what our options are, but I don't have a lot of good options left.
Speaker 2:And one of the things that happens then is people say, oh well, let's talk about tools. It's obviously all about tools. And I say, no, it's talking, let's talk about quality of life. The first thing is is your, your clients dog has a really crappy quality of life and your clients have a crappy quality of life and let's be really clear that You know the best trainer in the world may not be able to resolve problem X, whatever problem X might be, and I have seen personally cases that involve behavioral euthanasia, with everything from aggression Through separation, anxiety through pica. I worked with a dog that was eating things that were just not food items and in the end was not redeemable. We couldn't solve that problem. I've seen dogs who were spinners, so you know compulsive disorders, and so we look at these things and we say you know, if it's not my job to talk to these people about the possibility of it and find out where they sit with it, then whose job is it?
Speaker 2:Well, if we refer to the veterinarian, the veterinarian gets 15 minutes at most twice a year to get to know that client. I See my clients when they're in active program, usually three times a week. So I'm seeing them in a group class, i'm seeing them in an online check-in and I usually see them at an off-leash dog walk and I will often see them a fourth time for a private lesson. I'm seeing them for an hour at a time. So I've got a lot stronger relationship Just by the fact that I see them for longer and I see them more.
Speaker 2:So, if you know, if I take it over to the veterinarian, the veterinarian now has to take a history. They hopefully are going to read all of my notes and They have to know the client, they have to know the dog. They have to do a lot of things. I can help a lot By having the conversation with the client and then writing the veterinarian a note that says I've seen this dog for X amount of time, we've done X number of things, we've tried this, we've tried that and the behavior problem is so deeply profound that we cannot resolve it and We would like to ask you to consider behavioral euthanasia with us.
Speaker 1:Yeah and that just makes things so much easier for everybody it's interesting just how much the The industry's got to be evolved, at least over in the last five years, because yeah, right.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's something that was avoided being talked about and it still kind of is, and a lot of people's minds is that it's. It's not a Successful resolution, right? So we're not getting success if we're not training the animal because we're animal trainers right, and air quotes there And if we are to face euthanasia, then that's a failure as and the eyes of, you know, a lot of people looking at these things. But what's not talked about is that the behavior of euthanasia can be the success. In that case, that can be the positive outcomes. And if we don't talk about it And if we don't educate ourselves on how to have these conversations and what criteria we would be bringing these conversations to the table right, then we're missing a significant piece of again navigating the conversations with humans, helping the humans really in these cases as well. So, yeah, I mean it's good to see that we're talking about it more, right? I?
Speaker 2:Have yet to have a dog, write me a check or give me their credit card. It has not happened yet. I'm not gonna say it won't, but it hasn't happened yet. We can't forget the welfare of the human think that's that's so important to consider.
Speaker 3:And Not every dog since this is the mighty end of the dog podcast will stick with dogs. Not every dog is a Fit for every household. I have lived with some profoundly dangerous dogs that I did not euthanize Because I live by myself. I am a dog trainer. I have been willing to Make my life smaller For for this reason, but I have gone to see very similar behavior problems in a family with three little kids where Making them go through a whole behavior program would not be kind or safe to those children. The decision like getting our clients to that decision Sooner when it is absolutely obvious that this is not a safe place for that animal. I think that is part of our job and I wish there was more training around Talking to people about the less savory options.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i mean think about the disservice to the community as well. If we're kind of giving false hopes to somebody that has a dog, that's truly dangerous to either their family or the community, and that's that's another aspect We don't talk about. We kind of get stuck on these Making a good impression to the rest of the training community. I'll take the most difficult cases, the most dangerous cases, and fix them like it's a something we could put on our fireplace mantle. But for me, the trainers that I'm gonna respect more, that they're able to help clients navigate all of those prognostic Factors in their case, right, that's, what impresses me is when somebody really shows a deep understanding of people's emotions And when they need to recognize that and maybe even read between the lines sometimes in their conversations. That is skilled to me and it's not always, again, saving them all right.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that brings up a really important thing. You know, you say saving them all, but I Have. I've talked to a lot of trainers, particularly trainers who are newer to the industry, who Have the idea that if you just know enough, if you just have enough experience, if you just use the Right tool, you are going to be able to avoid ever having to euthanize anything under any circumstances. I am here to tell you, i am very, very experienced, i am very well educated in this. I am a junkie for technical details. Okay, i have been doing this for 30 years and I think that we've got to avoid this hero Narrative that we have for ourselves. Well, i could fix that dog They should never have euthanized it because I could fix it. And I think, okay, you can fix one or two or three, but at a certain point you become a hoarder and you have 72, and then you have another problem entirely, and I think that this is something that we've got to be very, very aware of and we've got to keep our feet firmly on the ground.
Speaker 2:I have helped thousands of dogs and I've told people you know, this is a dog that we need to have a conversation about and had them go and see another trainer and come back to me and say, see, sue, see you were wrong. And I'm going to tell you what the answer is. When somebody comes back to you and says, see, you were wrong, we didn't need to euthanize this animal, the answer is I'm glad to be wrong, that's it. I don't need to discuss it with them, i don't need to tell them they're wrong. I just need to say I don't need to be a hero. I'm enough of a hero in my own life. Okay, i've got all these crazy things that I do. I can be a hero in other ways, and the way that I like being the hero the most is by being kind to somebody and helping somebody out. Heroism, in my opinion, comes on a much smaller level. Saving every single dog with every single behavior problem is a recipe for making sure that I can't do the rest of my life well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i just wanted to tag on to Sue's point that I went and got a master's degree in animal behavior, in large part to try to figure out what I could have done differently around my first behavioral euthanasia. And the only thing I would change if I had Shadduk again in 2023 instead of 1997 is I would euthanize him more promptly. Theodore has things to say about that. I would know now that a dog who is growling at me at three weeks of age like not in a playful way, has a profoundly abnormal brain And I think I still would have tried some things. but I think what experience has given me is the knowledge of what is not fixable. And it is okay if you are a young trainer and you are going through your first behavioral euthanasia with a client. We've all been there. If you train long enough, you will have this discussion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really important point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really want to encourage anybody who's new to the field to understand you're not going to resolve every case and turn them all into Larry the Labrador. That's not going to happen.
Speaker 1:It's okay, that's a national progression in our journey as trainers. We kind of move through that of like I want to take all the cases, i'm going to take aggression cases, i'm going to fix them all, and then you realize that that is an impossible type of goal. It's a good goal to have, but it's not possible. And as we get more experience we learn the nuances that only come with time and experience. Right, and so I would love to if you guys could point out some resources. So I know when the Facebook group first started it was actually there was not a lot out there on grief support and other support services that are out there that are kind of in this topic. So there's obviously lots of mental health professional and different avenues to go in that direction. But what have you guys discovered in the last few years for this particular topic, for resources?
Speaker 2:Well, we do keep a resource list on losinglulucom and we try and keep that up to date and keep those links live. So, rather than give you guys a bunch of links that you'll have to remember off a podcast, i'm going to encourage you to just go to wwwlosinglulucom and look under the resource pages there, because that's where you're going to find the most up to date links. There are a couple of things that are really important to understand. We don't actually have a lot of mental health links there because it's an international list And so periodically we'll get people who want to post, you know, some of the newer three digit codes for suicide prevention and mental health support and that kind of thing, and we don't usually put those up on losinglulu because those are very regional. We do have resources like where to find some certified trainers, because that's a more international thing.
Speaker 2:I have certainly referred many of my clients to your podcast, mike, because you've discussed a lot of issues in behavior. Those are really really valuable, and Trish and I are aware that these discussions are so tricky, and so one of the things that we do is we run a couple of different courses. So we've got an on demand webinar called Introduction to Behavioral Euthanasia for Families And that will be in the show notes so that you can find it. So if you are a pet owner who is dealing with a dog who is particularly difficult, that is actually a really good starting point because it talks about how do we look at the criteria. We also have a four week course.
Speaker 2:We're recording this in the winter right now, so we're on I'm not sure which week of that And Trish and I do that, and then we've got another one as well. So we've got Behavioral Euthanasia for shelter staff and volunteers And we've just put in place a pro version So you can buy five or 10 seats on the course, and we have discussion groups, guidelines and all kinds of things for shelter workers. So those are kind of the nutshell, but, trish, you might have a few others that you want to want to share.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll just mention that all of those are available on ShelterBehaviorHubcom And I also teach a 13 week behavior mentorship shelter dog behavior mentorship And one of the things that we talk about for a whole week because I think it's so important is setting the ability criteria for shelters, because just having a document that says what do we adopt out and what do we not adopt out, without some little face with little brown eyes looking at you at the time, Having an objective list is really, really important. It'll never cover everything, but it will help shelters make appropriate decisions with their more difficult animals. And such an important thing for us to do And I offer consults on that privately as well.
Speaker 1:Awesome And anything else you guys are working on.
Speaker 2:I've got a new in person mentorship that I'm offering at Dogs in the Park. We also have something at Dogs in the Park called the Dog Trainers Crucible, and the Dog Trainers Crucible is a online group. It's got a social media component and it has a monthly webinar, but it also has a monthly discussion group and it has guests. So I'm hoping Mike I've got to reach out to you I'm hoping you're going to come and be a guest on the crucible with me sometime, and it's 15 bucks a month, canadian, which is cheap because it's meant to help trainers who are new to the industry, and so often we'll get people talking about cases that they might be considering behavioral euthanasia on the crucible, and that's a new resource.
Speaker 1:And I'll be sure to link to that in the show notes. for sure, Trish? do you have anything else you wanted to add to that list?
Speaker 3:Yeah, i mean Shelter Behavior Hub. we have new stuff happening all the time McMillan Animal Behavior, which is trishmcmillancom. If you're a new trainer and you would help talking a client through a behavioral euthanasia both Sue and I do private consulting You can send your client to us. you can hop on the call as well and hear how we talk to them. But we encourage you to come and take the four week course with both of us called Talking to Clients about Behavioral Euthanasia, because I wasn't taught this in school. I did an apprenticeship. I did an in-person dog training school. I got a master's degree in animal behavior. Nobody taught me to talk to my clients about it And I put my foot in my mouth more times than I can count And I would love to help you not do that with your clients.
Speaker 2:Me too, because I also put my foot in my mouth way more often than I should have.
Speaker 1:Trish Sue, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate you guys. I definitely linked all the things you mentioned.
Speaker 3:Thanks so much for addressing this difficult subject.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, Thank you guys. I hope you enjoyed this informative conversation with Trish and Sue. They've been amazing friends and colleagues and I can't thank them enough for all of their contributions to the dog training and sheltering communities. Don't forget to head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression, from the Aggression in Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. I also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe on the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks again, and remember it's not about the destination, it's often all about the journey.