The Intricate Dance of Dogs and Humans: A Conversation with Marco Adda

What if there was more to our canine companions than meets the eye? Join us for a captivating conversation with independent researcher and Anthrozology expert, Marco Adda, as we explore the complex relationship between humans and dogs, and unveil the fascinating world of free-ranging dogs across different cultures and geographic regions.

We'll discuss Marco's extensive research on the behavior of companion and free-roaming dogs in Bali, examining the effects of restricting these dogs' freedom and the implications this has on their well-being. Gain insights into the importance of understanding individual personalities and providing an environment that allows dogs to express themselves. We'll also delve into the complexities of dogs' interactions with humans in urban environments, and how a lack of understanding and proper communication can lead to unintended consequences.

Wrapping up, we'll touch on the often-misinterpreted concept of dominance in dogs and its role in their interactions with humans and their environment. Don't miss this enlightening episode with Marco Adda, as we uncover the rich culture of dogs and the intricate relationship we share with our four-legged friends.

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About Marco:

Independent researcher, founder and director of AEDC Anthrozoology Education Dogs Canines and PFAH Portugal Focus Animal Help. He leads in-person and online educational programs on dog behavior, free-ranging dogs and wolves. He has studied free-ranging dogs in various countries, conducted field research on Bali dogs, and introduced dogs to schools in Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia. He also studied sledge dogs in Quebec, Dingoes in Australia, and wolves in the UK. He supported the rescue of animals in disasters in Indonesia and Portugal. Member of the International Society for Anthrozoology, the Animal Behavior Society, and board member for the international Anthrozoology Symposium, Romania. Accredited Dognition evaluator.  
Besides, Marco is a somatic researcher with a relevant interest in drama, social science, anthropology, neuroscience, actor training and martial arts. As such, he directs INS Integral NeuroSoma, is an accredited trainer by the European Commission SALTO Program and is a member of the Theatre and Performance Research Association (TaPRA).

Info and socials:
- www.marcoadda.com
- AEDC Academy https://aedc.thinkific.com/
- FACEBOOK PERSONAL: https://www.facebook.com/marco.adda.7
- FACEBOOK PAGE: https://www.facebook.com/marcoaddaAEDC/
- Email: marcogerardoadda@gmail.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

We've heard from experts from many different lenses of science and I'm delighted to have an anthozoology perspective for this episode from the enlightening and somewhat enigmatic Marco Ada. Marco and I chat about the culture of dogs and people around the world and how much environment truly impacts behavior, especially aggression. He's fascinating to listen to and I'm sure you will enjoy this episode. Marco is an independent researcher and founder and director of anthozoology education, dogs, canines and Portugal Focus Animal Help. He leads in-person and online educational programs on dog behavior, free-ranging dogs and wolves. He studied free-ranging dogs in various countries, conducted field research on Bali dogs and introduced dogs to schools in Indonesia, thailand and Malaysia. He also studied sled dogs in Quebec, dingos in Australia and wolves in the UK and supported the rescue of animals and disasters in Indonesia and Portugal. He is a member of the International Society for Anthozoology, the Animal Behavior Society, and board member for the International Anthozoology Symposium in Romania. And if you are enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there are a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression and Dogs conference happening from September 29th through October 1st 2023 in Chicago, illinois, with both in-person and online options. You can learn more about the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues.

Speaker 1: 1:50

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. I have a very special guest this week, marco Ada, who is a wonderful person who's got so many different lenses that we're going to discuss on this show. So I'm excited to dive in here, but I always tell a little story about how I meet the guests on the show. I reached out to Marco last year about speaking at the Aggression and Dogs conference and he provided this lovely vignette of the work he's doing in the street dogs in Bali. And I kind of look at Marco as like he's like the guy from the Dosecki's commercials right, the most interesting person on the planet, right, because you've been all over the world, you've been like in Thailand and Bali and I'd love to hear more about that as well. But you know, i can just picture your adventures of just traveling around and just get into, hang with street dogs and look at the relationships between dogs and people in so many different ways, and I'm sure you have many, many different stories to tell us. So welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 2:46

Thank you very much, mike. It's wonderful to be here and move forward with our conversation. You know It's a great opportunity. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 2:54

Yes, thank you, thank you. So I want to dive into that topic of streeties or free roaming dogs, right, and some of the work you've done there. But you have a way of looking at behavior from a lot of different angles And one of those is Anthrosology. So for the listeners that may not be familiar with what Anthrosology is, can you kind of explain what that is in sort of a nutshell?

Speaker 2: 3:15

Absolutely. In short, Anthrosology is a multidisciplinary area of research integrating several disciplines, several sciences or several approaches like biology, etiology, animal behavior, ecology, psychology, philosophy, anthropology, of course, and others. Right? So it's like putting together many angles and evaluate, through all of the comparison and confrontation of those angles, the interaction of humans and other than human animals in different geographic regions, in different cultures and in different epochs, in different times. Right, Because Anthrosology also investigates the interaction of humans and other animals in the past and also try to foresee what is going to happen in the future. Right? So it's really a converging area of many disciplines And, of course, it's a privileged approach because it really allows you to have a broad view on whatever you're going to investigate. Right, And in the case of dogs, of course, it's interesting because, of course, it allows you to look at dogs in many different ways, right?

Speaker 1: 4:37

Do you find that it's, for instance, in the US, at least in the dog training community, we don't see as much ethology, for instance, but when I travel to other countries, ethologies is a very well-known area of study in the dog training communities. Do you find the same with Anthrosology, in the sense of you see it much more in other countries versus the United States?

Speaker 2: 4:59

Yeah, the main consideration is that, basically, both ethology and Anthrosology are very recent approaches on very recent science, right? So ethology is a little bit more dated It started mid-20th century, while Anthrosology was formulated toward the end of the 20th century, so it's just a few decades that those disciplines are around. Let's remember that Anthrosology integrates, also includes ethology, animal behavior animal behavior for the US and other places, ethology for other, in other countries. but they are the same ethology and animal behavior, right? So, as in many other scenarios, those disciplines get incorporated at different pace in different countries, in different contexts, in different cultures.

Speaker 2: 5:49

So that may be the case that in some places maybe there is a little bit more time is needed to integrate certain approaches and to become confident and have certain familiarity with certain terms and certain approaches than in others, right?

Speaker 2: 6:06

So I believe that that's quite natural, especially considering that both ethology and Anthrosology are so recent compared to biology, for example, or other disciplines, right? So that's the case, absolutely. to answer more completely to your question, having traveled a lot in many places around the globe, around the world, i also noted that. But I also want to say that sometimes you may happen to travel to a place where people have no clue of that word, of that frame, anthrosology for example but they have such an Anthrosological awareness so they may have developed a certain type of awareness that is really, it really matches with Anthrosology, even though they don't know that discipline exists right. So the fact that sometimes in certain cultures, in certain contexts, there is no awareness of a certain term, of a certain disciplines, may not necessarily mean that a certain awareness is not present in that place. So that makes the situation more complicated to evaluate.

Speaker 1: 7:15

Yes, definitely, and you mentioned you traveled quite a few different countries. What motivates you to do that, or what has brought you to traveling and studying the dogs so much?

Speaker 2: 7:27

Yeah, you know, it's like a rocket that was charging for decades. Right, at a certain point I wanted to study Kenai in general and when I was in Italy back in the years I am in Italy now, but when I was a bit younger and I was in Italy and I wanted to study Kenai from around the world and understand how about wolves and dingos and and zleed dogs and all of those things, right, and so for a few years that rocket was, you know, charging, and charging. At a certain point it just started and exploded. Right, and so I went for about 10 years traveling around the world and with the strong motivation of exploring Kenai and human cultures around those Kenai in different places of the world, and that was sort of the main mission for a while. And that also allowed me to, as I mentioned, to go to Southeast Asia to study the fringe in the dogs there, to Australia to study dingos. Several times I went there to Mexico studying the fringe in dogs in Mexico or Canada and Quebec, studying the zleed dog in Quebec, or the wolves in the UK, and so on and so forth.

Speaker 2: 8:44

Right, so I've been basically globetrotting for a while, even though I was based in Southeast Asia in that decade. During that decade, because most of the was the main path I was I mean the high road I was mostly giving attention to was the studying on the fringe in dogs in Indonesia, in Bali, indonesia. So that was my headquarter during that decade, but I was traveling also a lot to study other Kenai population and, importantly, because of that anthroozoological perspective we just mentioned, not just the Kenai in their ecology, behavior interaction, dog-dog interaction or wolf-wolf interaction, whatever that may have been, but the interaction of those Kenai with people surrounding them, being those people part of their family, being those people part of a shelter, being those people part of a zleed dog industry or organization and so on. Right, that is what is very interesting to me to see all of those different interactions in different cultures and with different people and Kenai.

Speaker 1: 9:52

That's amazing, and I have a selfish question then, because, absolutely, you're basically describing what I would love to do some days just travel. I love traveling now and doing exactly what you do just going in and looking at the relationships of the dogs and the people and the animals really, and the people, and exploring, because that's what I just love seeing, even if it's just from my own selfish interest, just to witness all of the culture of people and the animals. So was that, like around a business model, or did you get funded for that? Like, how did you support all of that endeavor?

Speaker 2: 10:27

Thank you very much for this question, which is crucial. That comes down to me being an independent researcher, meaning that I self support myself in all of that, meaning that I work and with what I gain I pay my own research right, because there is no specific university behind that is supporting or financing those operations, those researches. Of course that has some difficulties because of course I cannot rely to any income specifically, but by traveling and working I figure out how to keep doing it, at least before the pandemic. Now things have changed a little bit for everybody, right? The good news is that somehow I'm more free to decide and to explore what I want to explore, and sometimes that may be a privilege, sometimes maybe not necessarily a privilege, but at least it was a better match with my own inclination. Anyway, i didn't have anybody that so foolish to support 10 years on the road.

Speaker 2: 11:35

You know this independent researcher going around and doing some experiments basically, what an amazing experience that must have all been.

Speaker 1: 11:45

I mean, someday or maybe you do have a book written about just your experiences. I'm sure there's so many interesting stories you could tell from your experiences.

Speaker 2: 11:54

Thank you. That's encouraging, i believe. So There are interesting stories. There are many that I saving for when that time will be the good opportunity to share.

Speaker 2: 12:07

But yes, for sure, it's been very interesting to talk to people, to see the animals, to see the dogs and the canines. And talk to people, you can get into the nuances of the relationship with those animals. We know that when we talk to people, and with an empathetic approach and that provides space for people to express themselves, so you really get to some subtle details that are part of that relationship, that just with time and trust you can get there. But those details allow you to understand deeply the relationship of human and canines in that specific context, in that specific interaction, but also more broadly and more, let's say, universally, right, even though there is nothing that really applies universally. But it provides you with some insights, with some intuition. You have huh, wait, a moment because of this and this and this, you connect the dots and, pam, it clarifies important things that later will support you in your work as a K9 behavior consultant, for example, a dog trainer, you know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:19

So I'd love to just dive into a big question right away, then. Is so what has been your kind of biggest takeaway from all those travels and experiences and watching and observing the relationships of people with their dogs? If you had kind of one I know that's a tough question, right But if you had one kind of big message from that.

Speaker 2: 13:38

Yeah, you know I I've been working quite quite enough on domestication. I've been studying, somehow, domestication. Initially I had this interested initially, this interest in domestication. But after connecting with all those people and looking dogs and people in many contexts, in many situations, what I realized, what it seemed obvious to me, it was that domestication was clear. I mean myself and the perception I had of domestication it was something related to the past. You know, is that is something related to the past, right?

Speaker 2: 14:17

While actually I could see in all of those interaction the continuation of domestication, i could have a clear perception that all of those interactions were still determining, some out domestication and the process of humans and dogs walking next to each other and influencing each other and their parallel evolution, their mutual influence through millennia, through centuries and through decades. Up to now, and in the next few decades and probably 100 years and who knows for how long more, i could clearly have that feeling that wait a moment It's not just interacting with the dogs, not just okay, you have a dog in your home and it's a member of your family, that's a layer. And then you have dogs in the street, that's another layer. And then you have dogs in the shelter another layer. But all of those types of interaction in all of those different cultures, it appeared to me to be under that umbrella of domestication And it seemed to me that that's the game we are playing. You know, we are contributing to history every moment we are interacting with the dog And, according to what behavior we display and what type of approach we have with dogs, we are changing history in any moment. We are determining, we are describing, we are making history, we are contributing to the domestication process, which is not something like a line that cuts the past with the present. No, it's a continuous process, it's a continuum, it's an infinite game And we are contributing to that game.

Speaker 2: 15:59

And when that came clear to my mind, i studied more domestication and that became an important part of my educational, part of my process as an educator, as a tutor, as a dog behavior consultant. It's an important part of what I you know the time I spend with clients. It's it evolves a lot around that to help them understanding that what they do with their dogs, what they do with their friend companion dogs or dogs in the street, is not something just casual, and that it starts there and ends there. It has a consequence in the history of human dog evolution. That really came to my mind little by little and had a tremendous impact on my perception of dogs and humans and also my on my work and my professional service.

Speaker 2: 16:51

And I've seen with time that that has transformed importantly many people and changed importantly the relationship they have with their dogs, with their companion dogs and, in some cases, other animals, because they, if people, can make some shifts, some change, some mindset, some paradigms that can have a tremendous impact in their life and life of their companion animals.

Speaker 2: 17:18

So that's for sure, one of the course that unfolded through time, through experience, studying, through the stories told by people, through the behavior of the dogs and other canines, through traveling through some ups and downs, that also unfolds while you are on that path and sometimes you miss a train, you miss a flight, you need to stay for a few days in a city, stuck there. Maybe you have to wait for a visa to enter in a country, you need to wait for the embassy giving you back the passport with that print on it and then you need to fly back to some other places. There are many, many moments that it's not just everything is exciting. There are some moments of discouragement too, and those are crucial also. To sit there, wait and reflect upon those things and sometimes click something unfolds. So it's made also of that.

Speaker 1: 18:23

Yes, what a way to dive deep into this conversation right away. some really deep thoughts there, and I really appreciate you sharing your experiences, because it's just what an incredible opportunity to be able to do that and travel for so long and just focus so much on what you love. Someday you'll be able to sit down and pick your brain for hours about all the stories that you probably could tell.

Speaker 2: 18:50

But you're somehow doing right. You're also traveling a lot, quite a lot, and exploring the fringe in dogs too. You're passionate about them too.

Speaker 1: 18:58

Yes, but I don't think I share the same grit that you've experienced. So I fly in, i have somebody that takes care of me, i have a host, i fly out on time usually, so I don't think I could share the same type of experiences at this point, but someday that's always been my goal, to just continue to travel and just keep seeing the dogs and the culture. So it's kind of the perfect segue into what we're going to talk about. Next is the free roaming dogs, and you were talking just about how much our interactions, every interaction we have with these dogs, is so crucial to how much their behaviors influence the domestication, and so the study you did in Bali, for instance, looked at the behavior between companion dogs and free roaming dogs, so, and we saw the companion dogs displaying significant issues, or more likely to display certain behaviors, i should say, than the free roaming dogs. You do want to talk more about that? just give kind of the abstract, i guess. Addition Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 19:58

What we explored in Bali when I say we, i have to mention my wonderful colleagues at the University Health AIM Buddha Pest Department of Ethology, the family dog project led by Professor Adam Mikolosi What we explored, actually, after a couple of years of preliminary observation that I did in Bali just to mention that those studies take a long time and a lot of work But after those two years of preliminary observation it appeared that those dogs living as companion in families were more reactive and somehow we're starting to display some behavioral, what we may consider also in other places, behavioral issues like destruction, aggressive behaviors or excessive barking, separation, anxiety, you name it. I should make a premise. You know, in Bali Bali is in Indonesia, is an island in Indonesia And on the island of Bali there are the Bali dogs, which is an autochthon, endemic canine population, meaning that is a canine population that is there since thousands of years, and on this population, this canine population, there was a very minimal, if not at all, influence, interference, genetically, because, being Bali an island, it remained kind of isolated by many travels and changes happening throughout Southeast Asia and Indonesia, right. So basically, we have these endemic, very precious and very special canine population in Bali, made of mostly for ranging dogs. We also should say that those foraging dogs in many cases associate strongly with the household or with few people, so they may have a full foraging lifestyle, so they are completed on their own, or they may have a partial foraging lifestyle, so they may be on their own, but they may associate with the family, with the household, considering that the houses in Bali, the houses of local people, are open. The kitchen is in a place, the kitchen is a building, the sleeping room is another building, the terrace is another building, the ceremony temple is another building and all of those little buildings have a space in between where those people put the rise, makes works with the wood or make statues or offerings and so on. Right, so the dogs come and go to those places and people occasionally offer them some leftover and so on. Right, so there are some foraging dogs that occasionally associate with certain people at the point that locals they don't have, at least until at certain point, do not have the perception of ownership as we intend that in Euro American place, in Euro American countries or Australia, for example. But basically, as we were mentioning at the beginning, somehow those dogs belong to those family and to those human right and vice versa. Those human belongs to those dogs, right, right. So that's the premise, right.

Speaker 2: 23:14

What happened then? Until that point there was a balance right, dogs were living through, ranging or associating with some people, local people and so on. But in the last 50 years, let's say, a lot of experts moved to the Highland of Bali, right, and so this interesting situation happened. The experts moving there have seen in those Bali companion, autochthon, endemic population of dogs, like an original animal from a remote island of Indonesia, something secret of some sort, with actually a very interesting behavior, with a very interesting personality, in general very affectionated but also somehow faral, an integration of affectional behavior. And so there was a connection and ferrality, a very interesting combination. So many experts moving to Bali fall in love for those dogs and they wanted to adopt those dogs, right, those Bali dogs. So they start to bring those dogs in their homes.

Speaker 2: 24:23

And what happened, very rapidly, let's say, what I observed then in those two preliminary years of investigation, is that in a very short frame of time, like in also just two weeks, so one month, the behavior of those dogs, which the behavior was very kind of balanced, while they were on the street or on the beach of Bali, in the suburban areas, in the cities and so on, that behavior will start to get weird and they were starting to display some of those behavioral issues. And of course, i entered into the house of people, got their interviews, observed the dogs, took pictures of dogs that were on the street before and then got adopted, and so took pictures of those dogs later and observed the transformation that those dogs were going through. So the question arises what happens to those dogs that when they shift from the street to the house of people and they shift their life into the house of people, their lifestyle from a free, roaming, free ranging, totally free or partially free lifestyle, they are restrained and they become part of a family. What happened in their behavior? Why that happened? What are the components that transforms those components that transformed that dog from a sort of balanced dog to a dog that is now nervous, more reactive, more aggressive in some cases. What happens? What happens to those dogs?

Speaker 2: 25:54

And so we have explored those aspects and, long story short, we can speculate for sure that the restriction and a certain behaviors of humans may cause those transformations that eventually result in those behavioral traits, let's say, if not problems, but traits. So more prey drive, more reactivity toward other dogs, more reactivity toward strangers, people that who those dogs don't know, right, for example? right, basically, what happens in that two weeks or one month is, it's like a snapshot of what happened through the process of domestication in a few centuries. We took animals from their natural environment, we took into our homes, we start breeding I'm referring particularly to the last few centuries we start breeding the dogs And now we have, in the true 300 years, many dogs living as companion dogs, having a lot of behavioral traits that in some cases may be considered problematic, right, and so that what happened in a very short timeframe, also to the free ranging dogs, so that was very fascinating to observe, to collect information and, of course, collect surveys, make statistical analysis and then, of course, coming to a conclusion and then publishing the study, which, of course, can be found online And later we can provide some information and can be read by anybody online.

Speaker 2: 27:36

So sorry, i stretched it a little bit, but there are many details that are interesting and necessary to know to understand how relevant. What's the relevance of that discovery, of that study? right, because then it comes to our dogs living in our homes, in your American countries, because it's there that then, we need to make a reflection and understanding. Okay, then, what's going on in some households, in some houses with our dogs? Maybe there is something in that setting in their lifestyle, the fact that they are restricted, the fact that there are, in some cases, overfed or other elements that we can discuss later that maybe is making them feeling an epi somehow, even though in many cases, people living with those dogs may not be aware of that right, because they do things with wonderful intention, but sometimes that's not necessarily enough, right.

Speaker 1: 28:32

Yes, yes, and I want to dive deeper into that and what us humans do with the intent to do something good for the animals. For instance, the expats moving to Bali and perhaps many of them thinking they're rescuing you know I'm using air quotes if you can't see me right now These dogs that were on this. You know free roaming, but perhaps living a much more enriched and happy life doing that. So I'm going to take a short break here and when we come back I'd love to dive more into your thoughts on. You know again, what's impacting the behavior of dogs in more captive environments. So let's take a break and we'll be right back. Hey friends, it's me again and I hope you are enjoying this episode. You may have figured out that something I deeply care about is helping dogs with aggression issues live less stressful, less confined, more enriched and, overall, happier lives with their guardians. Aggression is so often misunderstood and we can change that through education, like we receive from so many of the wonderful guests on this podcast. In addition to the podcast, i have two other opportunities for anyone looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, which include the Aggression in Dogs Master course and the Aggression in Dogs conference. If you want to learn more about the most comprehensive course on aggression taught anywhere in the world, head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the Dog Pros tab, and then the Master course. The course gives you access to 23 modules on everything from assessment to safety, to medical issues, to the behavior change plans we use in a number of different cases, including lessons taught by Dr Chris Pockel, kim Brophy and Jessica Dolce. You'll also receive access to a private Facebook group with over a thousand of your fellow colleagues and dog pros all working with aggression cases. After you finish the course, you'll also gain access to a private live group mentor session portal with me where we practice working through cases together. And if you need CEUs, we've got you covered. We're approved for just about every major training and behavior credential out there. This is truly the flagship course offered on Aggression in Dogs, and it's perfect for pet pros that want to set themselves apart and take their knowledge and expertise to the next level, or even for pet guardians who are seeking information to help their own dog.

Speaker 1: 30:56

And don't forget to join me for the fourth annual Aggression in Dogs conference, which is happening online and in person from Chicago, illinois, september 29th through October 1st 2023. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you might have heard on the podcast, including Sue Sternberg, dr Tim Lewis, dr Christine Calder, sindoor Pangal, cyrus Stremming, sean Will, masa Nishimuta and many, many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and veterinary behavior cases to working with aggression in shelter environments and even intra-household dog-dog aggression. And I wanted to take a moment to thank one of our sponsors for the conference. As a family of world-class trainers, fensi Dog Sports Academy provides expert and accessible instruction for competitive dog sports using the most progressive training methods and positive reinforcement techniques. Through their online platform, students are able to access professional dog training, no matter your location or pup's skill level. Fdsa believes the bond between the dog and human is a proud and life-changing partnership, and they'll work with you to develop a respectful and kind relationship with your furry best friend. Check out FDSA at FENSIDogSportsAcademycom.

Speaker 1: 32:21

All right, i'm back with Marco Otto. We've been talking about free-roaming dogs and the work that Marco has done in Bali observing these dogs, and we're talking about dogs that we put more restrictions on in society. It's definitely been a theme of, for instance, last year's conference and some of the episodes in the podcast where we talk about free-roaming dogs Sindoor Pangal is also some of that is deeply into understanding the lives of dogs that are not in our homes or companion animals, and you were talking about captivity or just restrictions. So you know, captivity might be a kind of a loaded word but you know, being in our homes, being on leash is more, being confined more, and we clearly see this pattern and I've seen, of course, traveling. You know, the dogs that are sometimes on leash are doing the most barking and talking to other dogs than the dogs that are just free-roaming.

Speaker 1: 33:12

The free-roaming dogs are just like hey, what's your deal? You know, why do you have to bark so much? Just relax, it's just. But it's because I think it's the restrictions. So I'd love to dive deeper into that, because another question I have also is, you know, in our domestication process, in our breeding process, you know, should we be focusing more on, if we're going to breed dogs, focusing on that aspect of making them more adaptable to these more companion dog environments, versus the other things we've been focusing on for many years in our when we've been breeding dogs for tasks, you know so protecting property, protecting livestock, herding things, retrieving things should we be focusing maybe more on? let's say, if we are to resolve some of these issues, focus on let's let's breed dogs for being in more in confinement, in more companion dogs and more not having to do work all the time but just relax and chill out and get fed by their owners and, you know, relax with their owners. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 34:09

Yeah, that's probably happening anyway And it's. It may not be intentional, or for some breeds, or maybe for others, you know, for those dogs that are conceived to be, you know, more sociable and better for kids, or, indirectly, there may be already that trait that is somehow pushed through right. But to a larger extent I believe that that is happening anyway, because dogs are getting more and more used to I mean dogs in Europe and US and Australia and other places you know are getting more and more used to spend some time alone, for example at home, although that doesn't have to cross a certain line, otherwise it may become problematic. They're used to eat, you know, certain types of food And again, also there we should not exaggerate.

Speaker 2: 35:02

We may talk a little bit about that later, you know, because many dogs are overfed in the house of people, right. Many family dogs are overfed, right. So there are many other traits that probably are naturally emerging and that's okay. It's not that living confined in a house with people it's bad per se. It's just that we need to understand that environment. We need to understand the personality, the individual personality of that dog. We need to understand K9 in general and dogs in general have a broader view of what a dog is and what dogs need in general.

Speaker 2: 35:42

And then we need to put together all of those points, reflect being self-critical as a dog parent, dog guardian being self-critical, and see if I have some preconceived ideas of what a dog should do or what a dog should be or what may make my dog happy. So rediscuss certain points and see in every specific household what may be improved. Right, even though there are not necessarily specific behavioral issues or behavioral problems. Right, but there is always space for improvement. And yeah, actually, talking about Mark Beckhoff, you had him on the show and he wrote a fantastic book with Jessica Pierce.

Speaker 2: 36:25

Their last book, to get right, a Dog's World What would happen to our pet companion dogs if all of a sudden human disappear?

Speaker 2: 36:37

right, it's a book on biological, speculative biology actually, and after a longer reflection they come to the conclusion that they would probably cope very well, many of them, probably the smallest.

Speaker 2: 36:54

I mean, i don't want to say much so people can read the book, but just to say that dogs are very resilient, they're very smart, they can cope and deal with so many things we do not expect, right, so sometimes we need to learn a little bit more about them and step back a little bit and let them express themselves right, which is one of the main issues when it comes to dogs and human interaction in certain countries, because some people may have, out of their good intention, their best intention, do not necessarily let the dog express himself or herself or themselves.

Speaker 2: 37:35

And so that, combined with the restriction in a home, combined with the certain other elements the family relationship, because that's also another core point which we may want to discuss a moment later you know the dynamics within that family and other factors, a family made of dogs and humans and other factors that may make a dog nervous or unhappy and then, with time, that may turn into a behavior that is problematic, that is seen as problematic. Maybe it's not problematic per se, but it's seen as problematic, it's perceived as problematic and that makes clicks something that doesn't work, you know.

Speaker 1: 38:19

Yes, you know I'd love to dive deeper into that which you were just talking about. And let's use aggression for example. So we see maybe a higher likelihood of aggression in dogs that were gone from free roaming to being in somebody's home, and you've demonstrated that in your study. So the question is, what are your thoughts on why that might happen? So we kind of talked about confinement, we can talk about restriction of flight option, and it makes sense, if you have a higher population of more of a fearful temperament, that if we restrict flight options, like being on a leash or being behind a gate or a gated off area or something, we're more likely to see an aggressive response because we're restricting that flight option.

Speaker 1: 38:58

But what are some of the other factors? Some things that I wrap my head around are lack of socialization or lack of social exposure, especially in the young dogs, or maybe lack of enrichment that they would normally get, so their quality of life is impacted. So maybe more stress, or is it maybe more resources, because now they've got this wonderful place where they don't have to worry about getting things, or maybe depends, i guess, on the location, because sometimes they have more enriching resources out and about, or maybe it's the relationship with the family. Maybe there's a bond there and they want to protect that particular person. they've established the relationship. So I'd love to hear your thoughts. What do you think Because you've traveled and seen depends on the culture, and some dogs will display aggression for different reasons, like, for instance, in Mexico, the coppagers dump dogs studying the dogs that were competing over shade of all things versus the plentiful amount of food that you find in a dump. So what do you think in terms of that topic?

Speaker 2: 39:52

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 39:53

Well, i mean, there are all of those elements that you just mentioned and, for sure, for example, the leash topic is core, because we know that those dogs that are, at least to start with, are dogs that are likely living at home or probably dogs that are in shelters. But let's focus on those living at home with some people right, being part of a human family, right. So when those dogs go out and there is a leash involved, necessarily, because that's the way it works in most of the places, you need to go out with the leash. You're not allowed, at least in some areas, to have the dog off leash. Maybe if you got to a certain spot in a park then you can unleash them as a protected area, but basically in many cases you cannot, right, i've seen through time that that's one of the major factor that complicates things for dogs and humans. Right, because in that moment when the dogs, let's say, it's already restricted, maybe there is already a certain degree of stress because the dog has been at home for a while, maybe there is something. The relationships within that household, within that family, are not peaceful, maybe there is already some stress, whatever, it may be right. And then when they leave that place and they go out, all those steps from the gate, from the door of that house, to the park, let's say, right, a couple of blocks or three blocks or whatever distance may be right. All of that, it's an important moment of negotiation between the house setting and the external world. And that negotiation it often happened nervously because many people may not be aware of how relevant he is to our relevant heart. Those preliminary steps just out of the gate, you know, where the dogs start to feel all the sense and need to smell everywhere.

Speaker 2: 41:55

And then there is this person that, with all the best intention and I am very supportive of people, but we need to be self-critical too right, person with all the best intention. Somebody who also maybe had a, is tired, maybe had a wrong day at the office, whatever, maybe the situation you know, maybe do not allow the dog to smell around, do not allow the dog to pee or do whatever the dog wants on that specific corner, or that little bush on that flower or whatever. It may be right, maybe it's not allowed anyway, because we are in a urban area, for example. Right, there are anyway some restrictions and some limitations. Right, maybe there is another dog on the other side of the road and the person, because knows that this dog maybe may start barking, start to pull a leash And that's by pulling a leash he's signaling already to the dog that that dog on the other side of the road is somebody that is dangerous somehow, or somebody we need to be aware of, because he's signaling that through the pulling of the leash, instead then maybe being soft at the leash right And assure the dog that there is no reason to bark. By her body, by his body, by the behavior, by breathing calmly, by staying relaxed, by stopping and not getting agitated All of those are the strategies that supports a dog in understanding, for example, that the other dog on the other side of the street is not a threat. It comes from the behavior of the person. At least it makes a great contribution. I wouldn't say that it depends totally on it, but it may bring a great contribution to the understanding of the word that the dog in that specific moment has right. But all of those transitions and that negotiation, it's often very nervous And I can't say how countless hours I've been spending supporting people in doing some leash training which has nothing to do with having the dog on your side at a certain pace. But it has to do with communicating, through your body language and through the leash as a tool of communication, how the word is for you, so that the dog, by understanding how the word is for you, may place himself or herself in a better position to relate himself or herself to the world. Right, we had that power and it's not necessarily clear and easy to help for people to know that and to understand that, right? So this is one core aspect, right And for sure.

Speaker 2: 44:34

One of the consequences is aggression, for sure, maybe. Aggression, because dogs, when they're on the leash and they're maybe pulled, or they receive contrasting, contradictory information at the leash, right, maybe a pull and then a lease, and then a pull and then a lease, and a direction which is not clear, you know, of course they get nervous and they may get more reactive. So the other dog's bark, the other dog on the other side of the street park, these dog barks, and then the situation may easily escalate, right, in some cases. I'm not suggesting to do it, i'm not suggesting to do it, that's the premise. I'm not suggesting to do what I'm going to say. But in some cases, let the dog go, let just the dog with the whole leash go and the other person. Let the other dog with the whole leash go.

Speaker 2: 45:20

Those two dogs will run to each other, they will slow their pace down, they will look at each other, they will turn around each other and they will move away with no problem. In many cases that may happen. I've done that when the situation allowed that. I've done that with different clients. We do that in shelters.

Speaker 2: 45:43

We see that in food ranging dogs. They do like that. They do that in the natural environment. They look at each other from far. They run to each other and they slow down. They look at each other. They respect each other. Okay, you'll give a little bit of my scent. You take a little bit of mine, you know. Okay, i turn around. Okay, maybe it's better not having great arguments because at the end of the day, we both need to survive, we both need to be healthy And none of us has food assured and a sofa assured anywhere. So somehow it's better that we cope with it, unless there is a serious reason to get really aggressive towards the other dogs And then to get involved in a fight which in many cases, when that happened anyway, in many cases it's solved with a little, you know, a little scarf, you know, but nothing serious, certainly. No, nothing's so serious as we witness in dog parks for dogs living with people, for example.

Speaker 1: 46:53

Yes, yes, so just to clarify you know, culturally too, we see so much overt aggression in places like the US or maybe in the UK, where some of these dogs actually never learn how to navigate those conversations like you're describing. So it is actually very normal, you know, if you see a couple of street dogs or you know free roaming dogs, they just they do that charging up to each other, sometimes not all the time, sometimes it's a little slower dance, but it never results in this overt I'm going to kill you or really do major damage to the other dog or person, because it's just a very expensive choice in the natural world. But you know, why do you think that is? Why do you think we see so much overt aggression in the more developed places versus in places like Bali or Southeast Asia or, you know, latin America and some places where there's plenty of free roaming dogs? Because there is a lot of confusion in the life of those dogs.

Speaker 2: 47:51

Because they receive a lot of inputs that may be contradictory, as I mentioned before, from the people they live with in some cases, or people are I mean again, people do their best And sometimes the problem is not there, Maybe the environment that?

Speaker 2: 48:08

they have around is not conducive for them to express themselves. Maybe there is something that bothers them anyway, and anyway, in most of the cases, the possibility for them to express themselves naturally is limited anyway, right? So what's the percentage of time in the life of a dog living at home to express themselves in their true nature while they're at home or while they're outside? That's very limited. Now, the point is that dogs are very adaptable. They are very resilient, and that's the reason why they are next to us as a species, because they've been able to adapt themselves throughout the centuries, the millennia and the centuries. They're very adaptable, but that doesn't mean that they do not suffer somehow. They accumulate, as sensible animals. They accumulate certain stress or discomfort and at a certain time they will express it, as it would happen to us too. You cope with it, you cope with it, and at a certain point, you know I'm tired with that. You know what? Now I live and I don't come back for a few days, you know, because I'm tired of it. You know, for example, right, dogs cannot do that, of course. They go under a sofa and they stay for a few days silently under a sofa because there's something that bothers them. And also in that occasion, they're not really allowed to do that because they would have somebody going there and checking on them and asking and maybe calling for a vet, because the dog is behaving that way, right? So dogs have their natural feelings, their natural personality. They may have a rainy day, they may have a rainy day, they may have a sad day, they may have a sad period, they may be coping with something, they may have a mood shift, as we also have. Not to anthropomorphize dogs, right, but they're sensible animals, they're mammals And they're very close to us in many behaviors, right. That's why we study dogs to understand humans now in many respects, instead than studying primates as we were doing more before. Right, we are studying dogs to understand human cognition and vice versa, we apply human cognition to dogs to understand how do they reason, for example, right. And so we can do the same with emotions, we can do the same with feelings and so on, right.

Speaker 2: 50:49

So the natural behavior, which is one of the main of the core points of K9 Welfare 2, well-being, if you will is how dogs can express their natural behavior. Right, we need to ensure, for example, that everything is set well from a biological point of view, from a veterinarian point of view, the dog are healthy in that sense. That's the first layer. Then we need to make sure that the dog can express his own emotions, which sometimes means growling at somebody, and that's not a problem per se. Growling thanks to God that exists. Growling or God that's, or whoever at the universe, growling is fundamental in the communication of a dog, so they should be allowed to do that when that's justified by something happening around them, and that's not necessarily the case. And third level is how they can express their natural behavior in the home and outside the home.

Speaker 1: 51:52

So many.

Speaker 1: 51:53

I love just the way you look at dog behavior and dogs in general And that's why, again, i love the multidisciplinary approach and the multi-lenses that you're explaining things to.

Speaker 1: 52:03

It's beautiful And it's a perfect way to kind of shift to the next topic, which is dominance. Right, so it's kind of the dirty word in dog training in some dog training communities where people don't even want to talk about it. But I think it's an important topic to understand, not because we're going to use dominance techniques on dogs or in the name of dominating dogs, but I think it's important, especially if we're living in situations where we have groups of dogs. And so when we talk about free roaming dogs, there's often talk about loose packs or packs of dogs or there's different depending on who you talk to and which conversation you're in. There's a lot of discrepancies in this conversation about like, oh, do they form loose packs? Does dominance matter in these free roaming dogs? And I'd love to get your thoughts not only on just dogs but maybe we can focus on that, but just in your experience and in your travels and seeing groups of dogs explain, yeah, Yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 53:06

That's a very important topic to discuss. Yeah, dominance is a very misunderstood term And unfortunately is one of those that is leveraged by some trainers and some certain approaches to be aggressive and coercive toward dogs, right, which is something that for sure, we ban 100%. It's not needed. We need to move forward and away from that right. But, as you mentioned, to discuss about this topic more broadly, and I would like to mention an anecdote and experience I had And it was which is not related to dogs but it's pertinent, it relates It was back in the years when I was attending university and I was studied drama.

Speaker 2: 53:55

At that time, in that specific course, i was studied drama and I was studying Shakespeare and the characters in Shakespeare In particular. I guess it was King Lear and the measure for measure, those two pieces of Shakespeare And the specific topic we were addressing was the dominance of characters over others, because every character in the piece, as Shakespeare designed them, not just in those two pieces but in other writings of Shakespeare, there is a dominant relationship, a relation of dominance among all of the characters, meaning that the King is assertive towards certain people in the kingdom, certain characters, but is kind with his daughter. So he's assertive with certain supporters, the chivaliers or the warriors of the kingdom. So it tells them, in certain ways, certain things and that expresses a certain degree of dominance. That character expresses a certain degree of dominance towards those other characters. But then when that King, that character, turns towards the princess, he has a different approach. He's kind with the princess and he's a little bit reluctant with the Queen, because the Queen, it's still the Queen and may mess up everything around him. If the Queen wants for everything to collapse, it will make it happen. So that same character, the King, just to make an example and trying to recount from my memory, has certain degrees of dominance towards certain characters no dominance towards others and mixed dominance towards others, and again and again you name it.

Speaker 2: 55:48

So we need to clarify that dominance in that sense is a certain type of approach to others that doesn't necessarily mean to be violent, it doesn't necessarily mean to wanting to submit others and others submit to them. It's something that determines relationships. That's the premise. So there is dominance among dogs, something that's something that determines relationships, that designs and clarifies the roles and the positions that those dogs have within a certain group of dogs. Of course there are Right. So those are social animals And there is dominance in that connotation that I've just described among them as well as there is dominance among humans anyway, right? So that's it.

Speaker 2: 56:46

We should remember also that foraging dogs, for example, gather typically in small groups And although there may be some dominance in certain specific contexts, in certain specific behaviors, so they may display a certain assertiveness to some dogs and kindness to others and so forth, but mostly they find a balance. And when that balance is established, apart from certain moments when they need to clarify a few things and they have discussions, as we also have discussion within our families, right, but apart from that, they are well imbalanced. They are balanced. They gather in small groups two, three, four individuals, although in some cases, especially if they are a bit away from humans, so they are a bit wilder than they may gather in larger groups. That has some ecological and other reasons for why that happened, but in most of the cases foraging dogs are gathering in small groups. They may be assertive to each other for certain reasons, to establish a certain balance. They may be dominant in that way towards each other, in a way that is made of communication and not out of aggression per se, or wanting to control for some specific reason, as we interpret, as some trainers interpret in their terms, to justify their action towards animals and towards people, as people also interpreting in their way, to justify their aggressive action towards other people. Right. So we need to be very careful of that term because it went through many misinterpretations and also paved the way to the spread of the alpha term. I mean they mutually paved also the alpha term, paved the way to the spread of the dominant idea, of the idea of dominance. But also that alpha term is now debunked, even though many people are still leveraging it and they are mistakenly leveraging it.

Speaker 2: 58:49

They are wrong. Let me say it again, they are wrong. Alpha. There is no alpha. I mean there is no alpha in the way it has been conceived so far until now. Right. And also in wolves there is a family of wolves, mommy wolf, daddy wolf and the children wolves. And when children become adults they mostly take their way and they go to form their own family And until they are together they take care of each other. So sometimes they discuss and the daddy for some reasons, may be dominant in that way towards the kids because he needs to teach them to be aware to not go in that area because they are the hunters. To not go in that area because they are the farmers. To not go in that other areas because there is another group of wolves which is protecting his territory Right. So it's a communication tool, dominance, that supports the progress of a group in that way. In that way we can say yes, there is dominance among dogs as well as among humans, as well as among Shakespeare's characters.

Speaker 1: 1:00:02

And you wrapped it up so beautifully there at the end of that. Just that last couple sentences was perfect, so I could talk to you all day. Really, there's so many things we could go into Me too, but I do want to give you some time to talk about what you're doing, and where can people find you, all the beautiful work? What's the best place to go? Places to go.

Speaker 2: 1:00:21

Yeah, thank you so much. So the easiest way is go to marcoadcom My name and family name, marcoadcom, and that's my main website Anthrozology website And from there who is interested may find also links to the Academy Anthrozology Education Dogs K9 Academy, where there are some online programs that people take from everywhere in the world You can take everywhere in the world and there are other information that we find. They may find a link to the Bully Dogs study and there's a blog and they can learn more about my work. There is also a page for consultation if they need consultation, and I got involved in a very hard consultation recently about an aggressive, very aggressive dogs. If we had time I could talk about this, but probably we're running out of time, but maybe another time we talk specifically on aggression and we dive into that. But yes, marcoadcom, you will find also my email there or somewhere in the post of this podcast maybe, and you can contact me anytime. I'm happy to discuss those topics further. So I'm happy to hear about you anytime.

Speaker 1: 1:01:36

Excellent And, as usual, i'll be sure to link to all of those in the show notes. Marco, thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful. It's such a pleasure to chat with you and I hope to see you in the future.

Speaker 2: 1:01:48

Thank you so much, mike. It's a great pleasure. It was fantastic. I also feel that we have a lot more to share, so hopefully other opportunities will unfold Excellent.

Speaker 1: 1:01:59

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:02:00

Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:02:03

It was an absolute pleasure chatting with Marco and I hope to catch up with him soon on his travels. I think there's just so much we can learn from other cultures, each other and dogs around the world. And don't forget to head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression, from the aggression and dogs master course to webinars from world renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. We also have the help for dogs with aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog to dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening and stay well, my friends.