Are you ready to venture into the world of emotional safety with Andrew Hale as our trusty guide? Hold tight as we discuss the interconnectedness of physical safety and emotional safety, revealing the profound impact of our emotional experiences on our interactions and behaviors, for both humans and dogs. We look at how the illusion of physical safety does not necessarily equate to feeling emotionally secure, and how this distinction plays a critical role in training our canine companions and fostering trust in our relationships.
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ABOUT ANDREW:
Andrew Hale BSc, ISCP.Dip.Canine.Prac is a Certified Canine Behaviourist with Association of INTODogs. He is the behaviour consultant for Pet Remedy and the British Isles Grooming Association and is a Canine Arthritis Management Expert Advisor. He also works to support many dog rescue organisations around the UK. With a background in Human Psychology, Andrew is passionate about exploring the emotional experience that lies behind behaviour, both in dogs and the humans around them. Andrew has played a leading role in the UK Dog training and behaviour community, having been the chair of the Association of INTODogs, and the driving force behind the UK Dog Behaviour and Training Charter.
In 2020, Andrew started Dog Centred Care (https://www.facebook.com/groups/dogcc) which focusses on supporting a dog led, emotionally centred, approach to providing their best care and support. Within the Dog Centred Care Facebook group, he has been hosting on-line conversations with some of the world’s leading scientists, researchers, trauma experts, dog professionals and veterinarians who are working in this way. Andrew has also co-hosted the Beyond The Operant series of conversations with Kim Brophey and Kathy Connor (www.youtube.com/c/DogCentredCare/videos). These conversations are credited with helping transform the perceptions and language around dog training and behaviour.
Are you ready to venture into the world of emotional safety with Andrew Hale as our trusty guide? Hold tight as we discuss the interconnectedness of physical safety and emotional safety, revealing the profound impact of our emotional experiences on our interactions and behaviors, for both humans and dogs. We look at how the illusion of physical safety does not necessarily equate to feeling emotionally secure, and how this distinction plays a critical role in training our canine companions and fostering trust in our relationships.
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
The Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Expert Webinar Bundle --- LIMITED TIME SPECIAL OFFER
ABOUT ANDREW:
Andrew Hale BSc, ISCP.Dip.Canine.Prac is a Certified Canine Behaviourist with Association of INTODogs. He is the behaviour consultant for Pet Remedy and the British Isles Grooming Association and is a Canine Arthritis Management Expert Advisor. He also works to support many dog rescue organisations around the UK. With a background in Human Psychology, Andrew is passionate about exploring the emotional experience that lies behind behaviour, both in dogs and the humans around them. Andrew has played a leading role in the UK Dog training and behaviour community, having been the chair of the Association of INTODogs, and the driving force behind the UK Dog Behaviour and Training Charter.
In 2020, Andrew started Dog Centred Care (https://www.facebook.com/groups/dogcc) which focusses on supporting a dog led, emotionally centred, approach to providing their best care and support. Within the Dog Centred Care Facebook group, he has been hosting on-line conversations with some of the world’s leading scientists, researchers, trauma experts, dog professionals and veterinarians who are working in this way. Andrew has also co-hosted the Beyond The Operant series of conversations with Kim Brophey and Kathy Connor (www.youtube.com/c/DogCentredCare/videos). These conversations are credited with helping transform the perceptions and language around dog training and behaviour.
While I didn't plan for it, this season really is shining a nice light on the human side of the work we do. The wonderful Andrew Hale joins me for this episode and we chat about important topics in our community that include emotional safety for professionals and creating a safe space for our clients. Andrew is a certified canine behaviorist with the Association of IntuDogs. He's the behavior consultant for Pet Remedy and the British Isles Grooming Association and is a canine arthritis management expert advisor. He also works to support many dog rescue organizations around the UK. With a background in human psychology, andrew is passionate about exploring the emotional experience that lies behind behavior, both in dogs and the humans around them. Andrew has played a leading role in the UK dog training and behavior community, having been the chair of the Association of IntuDogs and the driving force behind the UK dog behavior and training charter. In 2020, andrew started Dog-Centered Care, which focuses on supporting a dog-led, emotionally centered approach to providing their best care and support. Within the Dog-Centered Care Facebook group, he has been hosting online conversations with some of the world's leading scientists, researchers, trauma experts, dog professionals and veterinarians who are working in this way. Andrew has co-hosted the Beyond the Operant series of conversations with Kim Brophy and Kathy Connor. These conversations are credited with helping transform the perceptions and language around dog training and behavior. And if you are enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom with a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression in Dogs conference happening from September 29th through October 1st 2023 in Chicago, illinois, with both in-person and online options. You can learn more about the Aggression in Dogs Master course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to help and work with dogs with aggression issues.
Speaker 1:Hey, everyone, welcome back to the bitey end of the dog. My very special guest this week is Andrew Hale. I've known Andrew for quite some time, but Andrew finally invited me to the Beyond the Operant I would call it a series right, because you've been doing it on Facebook Live and on YouTube as well, and I got to chat with Kim Brophy on some of these episodes. It's been just a wonderful message that you've been putting out there as well, and we're going to dive deeper into that aspect of things. But for whatever reason, this season has been focused on the human side of all of the aggression cases and just the human side of behavior in general. So I kind of love the theme that this season's been taking. So Andrew is an expert at talking about it, so I'm really excited. So welcome to the show, andrew.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's great to see you, mike, and thank you so much for having me along. And it's interesting, isn't it, how the human end of the lead can get forgotten sometimes on these things there's so many nervous systems at play, isn't there? You've got the dog. You've got the caregiver. You've got multiple caregivers. You've got the vet. Maybe you've got the trainer.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, especially in aggression cases. We talk about it all the time, that why it's so important to understand the human element in aggression cases, all of the emotions involved. But I think we should dive right in because we have so much to chat about on this episode and the topic of emotional safety, I'm so glad that this particular I don't even want to call it a buzz term, but it is kind of a new phrase to the dog training community but I would love to first let's define it. If you can just define what emotional safety is in your mind, so the listeners can kind of wrap their head around that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool. So what's connected to that is this notion of the emotional experience more widely. It's a lens that I talk about a lot, the lens that I look through when I talk about these things. And two things about the emotional experience. One is we all have one and secondly and this is the important bit, especially when we think in terms of emotional safety and the other things that we are trying to unpack is that they're unique to us as individuals. So people might say, for example, we don't know how dogs think and feel, so we need to not go there, we just need to think about what their behavior does. But the point is, Mike, I don't know how you think and feel, so should I ignore that and just make you do stuff? So I think it's really fascinating when we start thinking more about the individual lived experience and we're all unique in our kind of genetics, our experiences, our education, our trauma. Of course I know you're going to be talking about trauma during this season of the podcast. So, emotional safety we talk about physical safety a lot, especially in dog training, and that is important, and a lot of the work that you do, Mike, on that has been really invaluable to the wider community to keep ourselves physically safe. But one of the realities about safety is just because you are physically safe doesn't mean you necessarily feel safe, and that's when we start coming into the kind of realms of emotional safety and social safety.
Speaker 2:There is a definition for emotional safety which is used quite widely. One thing that's really important to note here is I'm not a psychologist. I have a human psychology background and a human therapy background, so that was my job for 15 years before I came to animals. I do dogs now, but the kind of loose definition that she used within therapy circles for emotional safety is the feeling of trust and openness in a relationship. Feeling of trust and openness in a relationship that's one lens to look at. That's more of a specific definition.
Speaker 2:But we can think about emotional safety more widely, about we were saying off air. You know the jobs that we do, you and I and our colleagues listening who are working in dog training and behavior and veterinary and all the other component parts. On a daily basis we literally turn up to the suffering of others. You know the caregiver that's in crisis, the dog that's in crisis. That puts us in quite a can put us in quite a challenging position really for our own emotional well being. So that's a wider area of how we might look at emotional safety more generally, about how we protect our own self-esteem, how we learn about and have those boundaries that are there to protect those things that we kind of need to be able to do to do our job. But feeling of trust and openness in a relationship I think is a really cool thing to think about actually.
Speaker 1:I think it's a crucial thing to think about, right?
Speaker 1:Because, as trainers and consultants especially those of us that are working in behavior cases often that's the first thing, especially aggression cases, right?
Speaker 1:Or focusing on making sure that dog feels safe, or modifying the environment or managing the environment right, those typical phrases we hear to ensure that the dog feels safe and also to keep others safe. But you know from the, what the dog is experiencing is to ensure they feel safe. But we often forget about the people. Especially when it comes to being an effective consultant or making changes and parting information to a client, we need to make sure that they do have that trust and openness you were talking about. So let's dive into that a little bit further. And what are some of the most common things you see in your, in your work, or maybe just even talking to your colleagues and other trainers, especially when it comes to aggression cases, where people are kind of getting stuck, not being able to find that emotional safety, or maybe even what we can do as trainers and consultants to open up that door for safety for our clients to speak to us?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question and quite deep one really when we think about it, because ultimately, one thing I think is missing in some of the education for us as behavioral practitioners, dog trainers, is about counseling skills, because we are kind of count, we are there in a counseling way. We have a lot of things to learn about the experience of others. It's very easy to turn up and just think I know what's best here, we're going to do this, this and this. You know, I'm here to tell you what to do Without first being available to the emotional truths of the other parties, and I think that's a really important thing that we have to be mindful of. And this is how I practice myself.
Speaker 2:The first thing I want to do is to make sure that the caregivers, the owners, have an opportunity to share their emotional experience. First. I do my initial consults on Zoom for that very reason, even though I'm going to see the dog in person. I want them to have a safe space where they can just share things and for me to open, ask open-ended questions for that and to get my words right like would you feel comfortable in sharing, for example. So those are already saying to them I'm giving you the option because ultimately, like everything is an invitation. We have to remember that everything we do is an invitation. We can't make people do things in a certain way. We can't make them think in a certain way. It's an invitation. The first thing that anybody wants to do is to feel heard, so we've got to try and give that caregiver the chance to feel heard. Now Many will be experiencing shame and guilt as part of their initial process, and that stops the opportunity to share and to feel safe. Often, you know, if I say this, will he judge me. If I say this, what will he think about me? And I think, especially on the force-free side of the fence, that term is as good a term as anything. But we have to be careful, even in how we construct our history forms, even how we construct our promotional stuff that that person might now think I can't share, that I've used that tool or done that thing. It's just interesting and I want them to share anything. So we have to meet them where they are. This is really important. So I have my cake acronym, which is compassion, awareness, knowledge and empathy. I like that because it spells cake, right, mike, she's handy. Right, because we all love cake. So it's quite cool though, because I think I can meet somebody. I'm going to take cake. It's always cool to take cake.
Speaker 2:Being compassionate is not about condoning or about supporting. It's about being available, being aware, being really aware of their story and the reasons that they want to share, about why they've done things and the situation they find themselves in. The knowledge is important because, okay, we have knowledge to share, but that should come second to the knowledge that we seek from another. They have knowledge for us, and then the empathy is just really turning up to their situation. And then I have my T acronym, because that's Bret's, we do love T. Right, that is time.
Speaker 2:Encourage and acknowledge, and those are really important things when you're having that initial conversation, giving that person the time they need to share their story and encouraging them to do it, not stopping them when they use the word dominance oh no, we don't use that word anymore, actually and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah or kind of wincing because they've happened to use a certain tool. We can have all that stuff internally, but I want them to continue talking to me in the language that they have, because that's their vocabulary. So if I want them to feel that feeling of trust and openness in a relationship, they need to communicate in the way and the terms and the vocabulary that they have, and then the final bit is acknowledge. I need to acknowledge that I've heard them and then we can have a conversation which is more about trying to find out what lies behind a lot of this stuff. So I had a lady recently he was using words like dominance, discipline, consequence, and I just let her continue talking, can talk it, and then I asked these open questions so we could keep having a conversation and at the end of that conversation, what she was really trying to put across was that she wanted to keep her dog safe and for her, if her dog did as it was told and she was in charge and she was the boss, she could keep her dog safe. And that was great, because that's a point that we can build on together. If I'd have stopped her at all those other points, I would never have found out what it is that she really wanted to do with her dog. So that's just an important point.
Speaker 2:I think about really trying to help people navigate through what can be very difficult. And guess what, mike, we know people don't pick up the phone when they first have a bit of an issue. When we get called, it's right at the end of stuff. So people are in crisis quite often and navigating guilt and shame is important, because shame is very much about judgment and the fear of judgment, and the antidote to shame actually is being vulnerable.
Speaker 2:There's a big difference between being vulnerable and feeling vulnerable. Being vulnerable is about regaining control and power over things and being humble about them. Feeling vulnerable is the opposite, of course. And guilt is another one. When my clients say to me you know, I feel really guilty now I say to them don't feel guilty about feeling guilty, because guilt for me is just a sign of deep visceral learning. There is something about what I did that I feel very differently about now. So let's kind of celebrate that type of guilt. It makes you think, yeah, you've really learned something now that that was important to you. And the final bit of this is the ability for us to be vulnerable as the professional. This notion of professionality, mike, I think it can end up. Rather than have healthy boundaries, it just puts up barriers. You know this, I've got to be professional. What does that mean? Why can't you be emotional. Why can't you share and say you know, this is a situation that I've experienced? Or because that's how we truly connect? I think, mike.
Speaker 1:I 100% agree and I was just going to dive into some questions about that too.
Speaker 1:There's so many things to unpack here because we often hear that term or that saying you know we have a empathy is finite. So we have a limited amount of empathy we can give before we need to recharge our own sort of emotional bank account to being able to give the empathy, to be able to give compassion and have the sort of energy in bandwidth to acknowledge you know the things you were talking about and acknowledge and courage, listen to a client's concerns and their stories and helping them kind of navigate this conversation of shame and guilt that you're talking about. So what are some of your strategies there? You know and yes, we want to be authentic and genuine we might shed a tear with our clients. We might, you know, share the same emotions that we might mirror their emotions, even without even knowing it sometimes. But for the professionals listening are really anybody for life's lessons right how to to know when we're maybe getting to the end of our tanks or our tanks are getting empty, or how do we recharge them?
Speaker 2:and another big, broad question I know that's going to lead you down A big broad question, but I think we can look at some specifics that are important. One thing that's important is a few little universal truths, if you like, and then we can perhaps pick on them and build on them. So I need, first of all, it is important to be available to the emotional truth of another, even if that's the truth you don't agree with, but it's their truth, right. So it's important to try and be available to the emotional truth of another. By the way, it's also okay not to. There are certain things that we find triggering ourselves that I can't go there. I can still think, you know, I don't wish you bad, I don't wish you well, but I can't be available to that. So I throw that in. It's important. So we should try and be available to the emotional care and support needs of our clients, but we're not responsible for them. It's that first thing, to really bear that in mind, and one of the golden rules of working in human therapy is that you can't turn up to offer support to another unless you're in a well-regulated place yourself first. And I say well as because very few of us are like the Deli Lam. We're not in the perfect place of serenity. So it says well as because this is just another universal truth the more elevated you are, the less you can be available to the support needs of another. The more elevated you are, the less likely you are to really be able to listen and to hear. So that's an important thing. So we all have to think about the best ways that we can find to be as well-regulated as we can, and for me there's two very important component parts for that, first of all, is thinking about our own level of where we are with our own self-esteem and building healthy self-esteem and recognizing the difference between worth and value. So our worth, our self-worth, never changes. We are all enough all the time. The issue is our value of that worth is often under attack a lot, almost from the moment we go to school. So that's one side. I'll build on that in a second.
Speaker 2:So yeah, this, this thing about building a healthy self-esteem, I see emotional health no different to physical health. You have to work at it. And even with physical health, if you're somebody who is fit and healthy and goes running and has a healthy diet, it doesn't mean you still won't get coughs and colds, you won't sprain your ankle, you won't fall over and hurt your knee, you know. The point is, though, the more physically healthy you are, the less likely you are to have bugs and things like that, but you can still get them. It's the same with emotional health. I see a lot of stuff online that do this, and you won't feel this and it's like well, is that in itself healthy? We're all going to have our ups and downs. Emotional health is like that.
Speaker 2:So building healthy self-esteem takes work, and it is about a lot of the time unlearning, actually, and there's a great little thing about, if you see our lives as being our story, asking a very simple question, and that is who holds the pen? Who is holding the pen right now? Is it that teacher at school who told me I was no good? Is it that trauma I experienced? Is it that troll the other side of the world on social media, right?
Speaker 2:So healthy self-esteem is really about just disconnecting away from the things that you might do and the things you put out and your own self-worth, and and trying to keep and protect a healthy self-esteem. For every person that knows you, there is a different version of you, because perception is everything like. How you perceive another will dictate how you act. So when you think about that, then all those people who have really high expectations of you, how can you possibly fulfill those right on a daily basis? And equally, all those people who have a negative judgment of you. Even if you wanted to, how could you change yourself to try and fulfill what they would then accept you for? And it's nuts to think about that. And yet many of us can fall into that trap, especially when our self-esteem isn't very healthy.
Speaker 2:So healthy self-esteem is one thing, and then the other is of thinking about boundaries. People talk about personal boundaries and professional boundaries. I don't think the two are different. For me, boundaries are an invisible layer of self. That's how I see my boundaries. They help me filter what I let in and, importantly, they filter what I let out. Right now, if my self-esteem I like the term healthy self-esteem that's the important bit, they're healthy and healthy boundaries.
Speaker 2:If your self-esteem isn't great, and especially if you are compensating with that by trying to please others all the time, getting a validation from others all the time, then your boundaries start to get porous and compromised. Because there's another universal truth, mike, and it's a big one that everything you say yes to you, you are saying no to something else, period, right. And if that no is your husband, your wife, your kids yourself, then your boundaries aren't working properly. So understanding these things as professionals is important. The final thing is being really clear in our head what our professional offering is when we turn up.
Speaker 2:We are not there to take on the burden of others and, most importantly, we're not there to save right, and I think many of our colleagues who care deeply they are deeply empathetic and compassionate people we can burn out very easily because, as you said earlier, we can only give so much. So we have to make sure that our personal self-esteem is good and that we think. You know, I know what I'm here to do, I know through which lens I'm going to be looking at this situation that I work with, and that my boundaries are are working well, and this is where super vision helps, and we don't have enough of it in our industry. So my husband is an end-of-life nurse at a hospice tough job, right.
Speaker 2:Interestingly, though, mike, he says to me that he couldn't do our job, which is quite humbling, really, as it takes all sorts to do different stuff right, but he gets supervision regularly because he couldn't do his job without having supervision. That's one area that is lacking for us, especially us that work in a very empathetic and compassionate way. If you're working in a very task-oriented way, I think it's less of a thing, because you turn up, you know, do this task going. But if you're working in a care-oriented way, which is what we do, we need to have better pastoral care as a community, I think. But that's a bigger picture, I think.
Speaker 1:So much to go, so much. I feel like I'm in a therapy session right now for myself. I mean, this is so much wisdom in everything you're saying and there's so many questions I have and many things going through my mind about even my most recent experiences. But I would love to get your thoughts, because you mentioned not having the supervision. I completely agree.
Speaker 1:Most of us don't. We're working for ourselves, we don't have guidance, we don't have mentorship. In a lot of cases, especially for this area, we have mentors that help us with the dogs, but when it comes to understanding ourselves and the self-esteem component and knowing how to navigate conversations with clients, we often have very little resources for that. So, with lack of supervision, what barometers would you use to say, you know, when somebody's feeling like, oh, I don't know, I kind of want to see this climb, I don't want to today.
Speaker 1:Or you know, I just don't have the bandwidth to deal with anything on social media right now, or I don't feel like creating a social media post advertise my business, you know, and you have all these doubts coming through and but they don't know why. But, like I get this question a lot from my students too, it's like you just don't know why or what's causing that. And how do you self-evaluate or at least take those steps to know what to do next? Is it compassionate fatigue? Is it burnout? Is it just imposter syndrome? What is going on and what do you? How can you? Again another big question for you.
Speaker 2:So it's big questions to say I'm not. I'm not a therapist in that way. I can only talk just based on my human background and I am still a human. I have my human support background and and what I talk about now because I think, and the reason it's hitting home for you and maybe the people listening, is because when do we have these conversations? We have people talking quite an academic way about emotional health, and that is important, by the way, but where do we have real gritty on the shop floor discussions about it? Because it's hard to find those safe spaces, sadly.
Speaker 2:And so you said there about self-reflection. There's something that we term as um, as a period of reappraisal. We all have to at some point start with that, because most of us, many of the listeners now, are already on a bit of a runaway train of. I call it boom and bust, boom and bust, boom and bust, boom and bust. You know, burnout, get over it. Burnout, get over it. Compassionate fatigue, impossible. All these things are actually connected, even though they're individual things, and a lot of it comes back for not being in that regulated state and stuff takes over. And the reason we need that period of reappraisal is because, for every person that knows this is a different version of ourselves, but even our own interpretation of self has already been corrupted by so much stuff, unless you're really on it or you've had the advantage of talking therapies or, in my case, mike, the advantage of a huge breakdown. I talk about my breakdown a lot. I talk about my drug addiction a lot because I don't want to feel shame about them, so I will be vulnerable about them and share about them, because they're part of my story and that period of reappraisal was forced on me. And this is the key. We have two options we either wait for it to get forced on us when we have burnout, breakdown, whatever, and then hope that we learn something from that. Maybe, but if we don't know about some of the component parts we might not know, or we do it willingly and voluntarily, thinking you know, I need to buy. This is my period. Now I'm going to take stock. Who am I? What are my beliefs, what are my value systems, what is my core aspect?
Speaker 2:And one thing to bear in mind we have a very negative part of our brain that wants to kick in. I think I like to name that part of the brain, that part of the brain for me is called Bob. Bob. I spoke to Grisha recently on something as part of her school and she has her name for her Bob-ness, and the thing about that part of the brain is it is deeply defensive because it wants to protect us, right?
Speaker 2:And somebody says something that Bob's saying you see, they don't like you, nobody likes you, they're being horrible, all the kind of things. And Bob has been kind of brought up, if you like, through trauma, through all the things in the world. Other people have fed Bob that crappy teacher at school, you know whatever, that unhelpful parent that you could never please. Whatever it is the problem with Bob is Bob, or whatever you want to call Bob is likely to use destructive language and it's the first part of the brain that will kick in. And if you're in a low place with low self-esteem, bob's gonna take over the narrative. It's that kind of negative bias, if you like.
Speaker 2:A really cool saying is this feelings are not facts. Bob likes to get stuck in feelings and it can be destructive. We have to allow ourselves and this gets easier when you retrain your brain. You have to, like I said earlier, have to work at it and you need support with this. You need somebody. This is where supervision can help and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:But to allow yourself to think right, somebody said something horrible about me on online, by the way, it will hurt, mike, it just does. I had all sorts of crap said about me last year and so it's quite hateful and it hurt, doesn't matter how good your self-esteem is. It hurts and it's kind of designed to, because we have a huge part of our brain that deals with something called socially-evaluative threat, which is about the fear of social rejection. And this is important for our Clients, of course, when they have that barking, lunging dog on the lead, because it's hard for them, because part of their brain, part of the problem for them, isn't just their dog, it's the fear of judgment from others, right? So, bob, destructive language, and if we allow Bob to play out, that's what we will see.
Speaker 2:We have to allow ourselves the chance to Take a breath. We have the stop acronym, the S being stop, so I'm just about to dive on the keyboard. I'm gonna stop. The T is take time out. However you want to do that. Oh, oh is observe. How am I feeling right now? What is it that's going on? What is Bob saying to me We've got to be nice to Bob. He can't help it. He's just really vulnerable, right? So we're gonna listen to Bob with love and then please take perspective.
Speaker 2:And that's where we can flip that destructive narrative To something more descriptive. So, for example I use this example because it's good one my husband and I on holiday, I did surfing for the first time. Trouble is, my husband looks like a bloody model. So he's in his wet suit, looking like James Bond, just coming out the sea. I'm not exactly that and it was all a bit disastrous. So Bob was saying Everybody's looking at you. You look stupid in a wetsuit. You can't do this. You keep falling off. How embarrassing. And if I let Bob stay with that, it would stop me doing anything new again, mike, and we can fall into that thing. I'm no good at this. What's the point? And the next time some new challenge comes along, bob saying what's the point? You'll make a prayer yourself. So I had to allow myself to think okay, that's Bob, that's the destructive language that comes first.
Speaker 2:But if I think about it more from a descriptive point of view, first of all, who cares what people say on the beach? And they're probably not even looking at me. I've never done surfing before and clearly if I wanted to do it again, I'll have to improve my skill set. Well, that's descriptive. That is descriptive if somebody says something horrible about me. The descriptive thing is what you know, they don't know me, they can pull apart my work, they can not like what I say, but that has nothing to do with me as a human being. And Just because somebody says something about me doesn't make it true. That's descriptive and I think these things are important for us when we go through that period of repraise.
Speaker 2:Or there's a great little analogy, a little kind of whatever you might call it. I don't know what it is analogy, but, um, our sense of self, our self worth, we're all given, when we're born, this beautiful house that is ours to live in. That is self and it is beautiful. Mike. Everyone is different and it's beautiful and rich.
Speaker 2:But from an early age we start almost succumbing to the expectations and judgments of others. We go through a educational system where we're that comparative part of the brain is used against us because we're Expected to compare ourselves to the other people in our school, and schools all about attainment, not achievement. The unreadest expectations of our parents, the trauma that all these kind of things. And then we go into work, etc, etc. So we end up moving out of that house To try and find a place where we can please others, where we can fulfill those expectations and judgments.
Speaker 2:When we go through that period of reappraisal and we try and find self again, none of this is about reinventing ourselves. I see all that kind of stuff. It's about finding self. It's about returning home, mike, back to that beautiful house, but guess what? It's unkept, it's got broken windows, the paints flaking. So actually that period of reappraisal is just Making nice again what was already beautiful. And that's important? I think so. So there's a lot of stuff there. I know there's a lot of stuff there, but but I think we all have to think about this period of reappraisal because Imposter syndrome especially, it's hard and you will experience these things.
Speaker 2:Our industry Community is almost unique Breeding ground for imposter syndrome. We have multiple entry points, loads of different schools and educators saying we're the best and if you're not with us you're not good enough. Loads of different forms of accreditation's. We have people who want to make the industry very aggressively competitive. So unless you have a good, healthy self-esteem. With those boundaries, you're going to really struggle and that's why many people do. I think we have an emotional health crisis in our industry because amazingly compassionate and empathetic human beings are under attack left, right and center, and there's their core just isn't solid enough and that's where we need to focus more education, I think.
Speaker 1:So many things you're saying are resonating with me right now, and I'll write you a check for my therapy session after the show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a gift.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it. You know, at one realization I had while you're talking. There is just that Sometimes, when we are under attack, it's sometimes not that person speaking, it's their Bob that's talking to us, right oh?
Speaker 2:do you know? If you're Bob and my Bob get talking, we've got a problem. Yeah, if we were all in a physical room, like you know, our brain will read the room better and you think yeah, shall I say that? Shouldn't I say that? Well, mike looks a bit upset now Maybe I need to. When you're behind a keyboard, those filters on there.
Speaker 2:There's also another saying which is quite true, I think, that hurt people hurt people. There's another saying which I think is more positive, which is healed people help heal people, and I think these are important for us. There was a survey done here in the UK by the British Board of Psychotherapists I can't remember anyway, I think it was a British Board of Psychotherapists, something similar to that. But the point is, though, they did a survey, quite a big survey, of a lot of people, and they found that a third of the people who responded had some form of emotional health challenge. So that could be anything from depression to stress to more clinically diagnosed things. So that's one in three of the British population. I think we can extrapolate out maybe. So when you think about it, then for you and I, you have a much bigger platform than I do, but we're not just talking about 100 people. We're talking about thousands of people who don't know us, who have no emotional investment in us, who either put us on a pedestal that we can't possibly fulfill or already have decided that we're not any good or whatever else, or they don't like us. That's one side of it. And then, on top of that, potentially one in three aren't necessarily in a great place and a lot of what they put out is more of a manifestation of that.
Speaker 2:On the one side, we have to be aware of other people's difficulties, challenges and what they might perceive. Remember, perception is everything. Trauma, especially, shifts that perception. You can see ill when there isn't Some people. You can smile at them and they think you're laughing at them, and we have to be mindful of that. But also, that doesn't mean that we have to make ourselves available to be shut down all the time. We have to protect ourselves and actually I find the best way for me.
Speaker 2:There's only one question I ask, which is nice for this conversation actually is do I feel safe here or not? That stops me from diving in. If people just see my social media posts, I would challenge anybody to find me putting out a gnarky comment. It's not that I wouldn't like to Mike Bob wants to. Bob is dying to right. But I think, at the end of the day, do I feel safe for this person or not? And if the answer's no, then I will distance myself. I don't have to prove myself to others that I've never met around the world. I feel confident in my message that I put out as an educator. That will speak for itself. People will make their own judgments of that.
Speaker 2:Every time you hit send and I would say this to all our colleagues who are concerned about putting out a post or putting out an article there will always be three types of people. There will be those who get it and love it, and they're the ones that keep us going right. They're the ones who cheer us on. There will be those who, it doesn't matter what you put out, they will have a problem with it and they will pick it apart and everything I do and I think I would invite anybody to think about this know that that will happen. But there is that huge amount of people in the middle the silent majority, as I call them who might be influenced by what we do. We never truly know the ripple effect, but it does affect us and it can be hard and you do have to find coping mechanisms. I don't like the term developer thick skin as such, because that implies that it doesn't hurt, but it always does. I think those who say, well, I've just developed a thick skin, that's actually just a coping saying for them, because it still hurts. So, yeah, I think it's challenging.
Speaker 2:In social media more widely, I think, and because of how people's perception of things and their own experiences, I see people critique my writing, for example, and I think people do forget, mike, that we share that social media space with them. So when they say, oh, andrea, he's this, he says this, this is what I think, well, I'm gonna see that because it's in a public route that I'm gonna see. And then I think, well, I didn't actually say that and I'm not saying this, but that's their perception. And, to be honest, mike, that's their perception, which is theirs, and I think if we keep trying to change other people's perceptions about us, it's quite coercive. Actually, all we can do is think, actually, I don't care what you think about me, because you don't know me. The only two people I care about me is who I see in the mirror, in my husband ultimately, because I have to live with myself and I have to live with him. So everybody else on top of that. It's up to you, but my work is up for you to decide what you wanna do about it. I will put my opinion there and that's what it is, and that's it. And if people wanna have a constructive discussion, debate, great, I love that. But people do get affected.
Speaker 2:I had somebody recently who messaged me saying asked me to have a look at her article for her, which happens quite a lot actually. I said yeah, so I read it. I thought my God, this is amazing. Then she shared that it's five years since she last posted something Because of the trolling she got first time. It's an outrage.
Speaker 2:That's one of the reasons I created dog-centered care was to try and create a space where we could talk about things that is on the fringes more. The emotional experience, mike, is, by its very nature, subjective and relies upon anecdotal stuff as well as some of the objective science which is more and more there, and there wasn't a safe space for that kind of conversation, for people to be able to share stuff, and that's why I thought I think we need to try and create it, and you and I, we try and create safe spaces, but it's only an invitation. Everything's an invitation. Mike, I can create a safe space. There are some people who haven't found it safe and they've told me that, and some people have told me that in an open way, where I've had to be able to say okay, how do we make it safer? Other people have just said very statementy things and slammed the door in my face and I can't work. So we can't please everybody, mike, we just can't, and you'll go do lally, I think, if you try to.
Speaker 1:Yes, so many words of wisdom there and I wanna talk more about some of the strategies you use to again navigate all of the issues that arise. And I love how you break it down into the kind of the three types of people we might encounter, because I think that's such a helpful way of understanding what we are gonna encounter. We can't change everybody, and I wanna talk about resilience too, so we're gonna take a quick break, hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back to jump into some of those topics. ["the Fourth Annual Aggression and Dogs Conference"]. Hey friends, don't forget to join me for the fourth annual Aggression and Dogs Conference, either in person or online from Chicago Illinois, happening from September 29th through October 1st 2023. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you've heard on the podcast, including Sue Sternberg, dr Tim Lewis, dr Christine Calder, sinhore Bangal, sarah Stremming, sean Will and Masa Nishimuta, and many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and veterinary behavior cases to working with aggression in shelter environments to intra-household dog-dog aggression. We'll also have special guest MCs, taylor Barkoni and Gio Alcade, who are sure to bring their positive and uplifting vibe to the conference and, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in person and online. I also wanna take a moment to thank one of our wonderful sponsors this year Pets for Vets.
Speaker 1:Did you know that approximately one million shelter animals are euthanized in the US every year? At the same time, many of our country's veterans are experiencing post-traumatic stress disorder, traumatic brain injury, anxiety and or depression. Pets for Vets founder and executive director, clarissa Black, created a solution for these problems by rescuing and training animals for veterans. Pets for Vets has a unique program model that customizes each match to create what is called a super bond. Each animal is selected and trained specifically for each veteran, based on matching the personality and temperament profiles. Additionally, clarissa has developed an assessment protocol called ACE or ACE, that allows other animals, the choice and agency to participate in the Pets for Vets program, based on their response to multiple stimuli. Pets for Vets has a positive reinforcement mentality at its core for animals, veterans and trainers. In addition to helping veterans and rescue animals, Clarissa has created a generous opportunity for positive reinforcement trainers to join her organizations. Trainers are able to participate from anywhere in their US while receiving stipends, professional development opportunities and maintaining a flexible schedule. For more information, please visit PetsforVetscom. Petsforvetscom.
Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Andrew Hale and we've been talking about a lot of useful, helpful information in this episode, especially dealing with the or working with the human side of the equation. We're kind of talking about navigating the social media environment. A little bit before we took the break and you had mentioned how developing a thick skin probably is not what we wanna go for, because it is somewhat of a coping mechanism and the sense of. I think we can build resiliency for navigating these conversations because it's tough.
Speaker 1:As you mentioned, it doesn't matter how much you've dealt with conflict or criticisms in the past. It does hurt, regardless of who you are, and we can say, yeah, it doesn't bother me, it rolls off and sure, there's degrees. There's gonna be varying degrees of that, you know. I think the more you do this, the more the bigger platform you get the kind of, the more you get it's gonna be a higher frequency. I say, no matter what you say, right, you can say the sky is blue and then people are like well, you didn't care about the starving people in this country when you said that and you can't address everybody's needs or what they have in their minds at the time. So I do think, though, over time, because you do build resiliency to these things and would you say that's true in terms of a way, also a helpful way, of navigating, especially the social media field.
Speaker 2:I love that and I think that's a better term resilience. I think you become more resilient. There is always those things that break through. When you have healthier self-esteem, you have those boundaries and you build that resilience. And part of that resilience is kind of knowing what's coming and being aware and Definitely flipping where that validation.
Speaker 2:We all like to be seen, we all like to be heard, but if your esteem Needs the validation of others, that's problematic as in it seeks it because there's a principle of enough and more. Part of that kind of reappraisal is still about many a minute goes. It's finding out what, what enough is well, guess what, we are all enough and Seeing what that enough means, and more should be about growth. Okay, so this is my place, this is my place of safety, this is my foundation, this is my enough, and that should always include us as an individual self as well as the other things. What does more look like? The problem, with a lot of advice, I think that gets given to professionals who self-esteem isn't that you, but maybe that's strong is this notion of what success must look like, and Then, if you're always trying to find more, more likes, more money, more, whatever, it will never be enough. Yes, so resilience is really important, but I think there's three main times when, even if you're a bit more seasoned, if you like and we've been around a bit and a bit more resilient that you still might get those breakthroughs. One might be somebody who you perceive to be safe with.
Speaker 2:You know some anonymous troll the other side of the world that I've never met, I do genuinely not care much about. But if it's somebody that you know, somebody have a connection with, and then they say something that you feel is unfair or unkind, that can be really hard. It's upsetting. Secondly, when you're already feeling quite low, some of these things can just spike you a little bit more because Bob's a little bit more in gear and it's just another bit of evidence to Bob that people don't like you or that you shouldn't be doing the job or you're not good enough or whatever it's. And finally, the witch hunt, as I call it. I've had that, mike. It's not nice when people just get on a band roll and they just presume that it's all true and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's all the pitchforks and they're all coming out, and that's hard. It doesn't matter how resilient you are. Then it's tough if you get all three and I think you and I can both been there right where you have the kind of the mob with people in that you thought you would actually knew you and, as you think, well, I've only ever treated you with kindness and yet you're saying some of these things and You're feeling a bit low. It's a tough place to be and I think that's just you know. I'm looking at you now through this Screen.
Speaker 2:One of the things that keeps me going a little bit is when I put that laptop down, when I turn this computer off, when I turn that phone off, all that craps in there. Because this is my reality, right here, I, these dogs, here, my husband. It's good to ground ourselves Sometimes. We need that space. We have to find that space sometimes to think what is actually real, what actually matters. The point is it doesn't affect you. I've seen some advertising sometimes. So Some of the less scrupulous business coach types there's some really good ones and there's some not so good ones and the kind of life coach you types again, some really good ones and not so good this notion that somehow if you build up your platform you have more money that you'll not have the burnout, the imposter syndrome, I can think. I think when you have those things, you're more likely to have that stuff actually, because it because it's Expedential right. So be careful what you wish for, I think sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you have to maintain those things, you know you feel like you need to maintain those things.
Speaker 1:Unless you're living at the same lifestyle, you just have these things as a add-on. But yeah, it's, it's tough and everything you're saying again Completely resonates. You know because you see it and you see it all around you sometimes and in others experiences as well. So let's shift to dogs for a moment here, and my first question. You know, because we're talking about emotional safety. It's universal for all beings, right in terms of the need to survive in in a safe environment. So do dogs have a bob, and Should we consider that more?
Speaker 2:Wow, oh, my god, that's great question and I think you know everything I do from an educational point of view, all the things I do. I try and take a philosophical view on stuff because we have amazing colleagues Kimberofi, cathy Murphy, cathy Connode lots of people who are happy to go in and in and in on really specific academic stuff, which is important. It's good to step back sometimes and just ask some questions, right? But what's interesting for me, mike, is the more we ask these questions, the more actually science is offering some. Well, actually maybe, because guess what?
Speaker 2:Dogs have, as you know, remarkably similar aspects of their neurology to us. There are aspects that are human, of course, and kind of think they might have a doggy bob, because if you've got a dog who is looking at the environmental landscape around them and Seeing threats when there isn't any, that's kind of a bob like thing a Little bit, and this is why I love Laura's term of cognitive reappraisal. One thing about seeing threat when there isn't any we shouldn't be judgmental of that, because that's the point about experience. When I was involved in human therapy, I was working with the lady who had a fear of buttons right and a fear of buttons and, interestingly, she could only seek therapy once she divorced her husband, and the reason for that was for the 15 years or so that she was with her husband. Every time she tried to communicate this is that thing about feeling of trust and openness in a relationship he would just say don't be silly, you're being silly, look, you're embarrassing me now. Blah, blah, blah. Right, and this is important. So perception is everything and I think, whether it's the dog or the caregiver, there's a principle I wanted to introduce, which is the range of safety. The dog has a range of safety, not just physical safety, but emotional and social safety.
Speaker 2:I'm really big into the notion of social processing, and a lot of the Neurology is pointing towards social threat evaluation for dogs, and if you think about separating social processing from social engagement and learning from the dog what those are for them, you start to have a better picture of what we can do rather than just change their behavior. There's two things for me for the brain, one is that it wants to feel safe and especially to seek safe social connection. The problem with there is safe, because if it doesn't feel safe, it will flip to social protection. This brings us back around to social media stuff again, is it? The second is the notion of relief that I talk about a lot, because for me, if you feel physical pain or emotional pain, you will seek relief. So the question I always ask when I'm working with the dog is by doing what I'm doing, do I feel, based on my observation, this dog is likely to feel safer and is getting relief, or am I just getting them to do something else instead? Because we can risk doing the latter even with positive reinforcement.
Speaker 2:So with that lady. Then she had to divorce her husband for whatever reason before she felt you know, I need to sort this out and actually interesting here. This is an interesting thing about that story. She had a toy when she was young and when she came home from school she found her mother sewing a button into the toy. So the young brain denoted pain and that was probably connected to other aspects of her trauma, because these things manifest in all sorts of ways. So it's interesting.
Speaker 2:So it's very easy to kind of dismiss the Emotional and social safety needs of another through your own Kind of filter, if you like. So yeah, definitely for us working with aggression cases, I think, because With a dog who is using those kind of behaviors, you clearly have a dog who is struggling to feel safe and finding relief. This is why we look so much now into. For me, there is always either a physical pain or an emotional pain component, and both are equally valid and we have to think about them. But we have to think about the caregiver. So this thing about the range of safety the dog has one, the caregiver has one Caregivers and we have one, and if you imagine them as little circles and bring the circles in that bit in the middle when we meet, that is the range of safety within which we should be working.
Speaker 2:If we're not working in that way, it's gonna get messy potentially, because either we end up doing stuff that we feel uncomfortable with, the dog ends up doing stuff, but, just as importantly, the caregiver might, and there's a lot of things that the caregiver this is why I'm a great believer in Checking in every time. So when I meet that dog, what dogs turned up for me today? It's okay, me having a plan in my head, but also what caregivers turn for me and also making sure I'm asking all the time. This is what I think we need to be looking at the moment. Do you feel comfortable with this. What challenges are there?
Speaker 2:So there's a term in human therapy that we call contracting, which I utilize all the time, which is basically up front, having a really clear conversation once I've heard that emotional experience from the caregiver about what the challenges are for us.
Speaker 2:So we all know them and I think if we don't identify challenges up front, it gets harder to do the process. So I have to identify what I perceive the challenges are. They perceive theirs. I have to hear what they are expecting from me and I can then say, well, actually that's not what I do, because it's no point me assuming what their expectations are. I need to hear them. You know, assumptions are a big problem for us because we're assuming that stuff. So we have to invite them in and then all the way through that process to keep checking in and and ensuring that they're in a we're doing things that are comfortable for them. We could ask stuff of people that might seem quite simple but actually for them could be very challenging, and then when we go back and they haven't done it or they haven't done this, we then see it as a compliance issue. I hate that word, compliance, mike. I hate it because it's a coercive term for me.
Speaker 1:What we have potentially is a person who's not feeling safe to communicate issue potentially Again, so many good points to think about there, and what I was thinking about, too, is that it really is important to do that assessment, in a sense of is everybody feeling safe? Is the dog feeling safe? Is the client, is the caregiver feeling safe? Are you, as the consultant and trainer, feeling safe? And being able to perform the job we're being asked to do is so crucial.
Speaker 1:But it also resonated me that's really how we should be approaching our conversations online, because when we have, we see a lot of divisive discussions around many different things, of course, in all walks of life, but especially in the dog training community right now.
Speaker 1:But one thing that's not talked about is assessing.
Speaker 1:Is the person I'm having this conversation with feeling safe? Is there something that they may have experienced in the past, or are currently going through even past traumas, that can dictate how they're going to have that conversation, that Bob's going to come out or, in other ways that they're going to? That's kind of I don't want to say coloring their lens, but sort of influence the way they have their conversation with you, and especially when it comes to such deep emotional topics that we're so passionate about, like tools or how we approach training techniques or how we, or whatever it is, in our relationship with dogs. You can see that a comment or post is just not going to cover, even scratch the surface of assessing these important aspects, putting some critical thought behind it, understanding the person we're talking to. So you've uncovered just so many things we can talk about, but it's just yeah, I think it resonates in a just full circle between everything we're talking about animals, people, our work with clients, our work with conversations with our colleagues on social media.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think in my opinion this is only my opinion social media is almost impossible to navigate in that very mindful and connected way. So we just have to find those safe spaces. And a big thing is I get people's passion, I get it completely. And the reality is this you cannot force another to change how they perceive stuff. Our brain, especially as adults, has created a safe worldview based on our belief systems and value systems, and our brain is designed to protect that. Cognitive distortions, cognitive biases, right, and even just saying to somebody can I give you some advice that social and ability threat brains already putting up a barrier saying hang on, you know, I don't know what it was, so it's getting defensive. Whether we're having discussions about methodologies and training, around race, around gender, around sexuality, it doesn't matter what it is. You cannot shift another through shame. Now there's only two outcomes from shame. If you try and do that, or kind of pointy finger or attack, either the other will start to say and do things differently because they feel they have to but they don't feel it, or they will not turn up to that conversation again. I call it a process of supported awareness. So in other words, I try to support the awareness of the client, for example to the dog or to support people's awareness. My bag is about thinking about the emotional experience of the dog because I think when we think about things from that point of view, the discussions around methods and tools becomes more mute. So I call the operant merry-go-round the other stuff. And that's why everybody keeps fighting all the time, because they're just thinking how do we do task best? Because we're in a task-oriented lens. But those who start to feel differently will seek those things and we have to make sure those spaces are available. If we just keep challenging others, it's kind of soul destroying for all those involved.
Speaker 2:I think Some of us who are involved in education and look at the bigger picture, we have to peek at that little bigger picture sometimes. But we can't reside there, mike, because it's a dangerous place to be. And some of my colleagues who are very passionate I see them trying to reside there, trying to make a difference In a way that is more likely to create burnout and anger and frustration. And it's hard because I would never say to somebody don't be passionate, don't try and do stuff. But we do have to think about where the big shifts in society have come. So I think about me as a gay person right, growing up in the 70s and early 80s here in the UK not a great place. Now I've got a husband legally married. Most of those people around me accept us.
Speaker 2:It was not done through shaming, it was about positive representation. The same happens whether it's race, gender. I get why people do the kind of shouty. Shouty. I get it, I really do, and I'm not saying they shouldn't if that's what they feel they need to do. But ultimately you can't force change on somebody who's not prepared to shift Because they're likely to have those cognitive biases to argue against and especially fighting over methods and tools. Personally, I don't think that's the way, because that's that Operant Mary Garone. I think we just have to keep putting the argument out about the need for relief, the need for safety. All these things are important and especially caregivers. They really get it.
Speaker 2:I don't need to say to somebody I work with a gentleman who really blokey blokey, as I call it right. His dog used to bark and lunge a dog and he'd get the end of the lead and it'd smack the dog's bum with the end of the lead. He wasn't thrashing him to death, he was hitting him with the end of the lead Still not great, I know. By listening to his story, by using the right terminology my end to kind of shift. That lens into thinking about emotions and relief and all that kind of stuff he was able to say to me Mike, I realise now why I was hitting my dog it's because I was embarrassed and I was angry. That was a huge realisation for him. If I'd started that process by telling him off or saying, look, I'm not going to work with you if you're going to keep hitting that dog, I would have lost him.
Speaker 2:You can do it easier on an individual level. As I say, social media is hard to navigate, but all we have to do is think I'm just going to keep putting my stuff out. That's all I can do, that's all you can do. Try turning up to different things as best we can and have that change happen in an organic way. One thing that I really want to make clear to everybody, listening to my colleagues especially, is it feels a bit tumultuous online at the moment, but it's only a few voices. Ultimately, there is what I call the quiet majority. People are just doing their very best.
Speaker 2:We are not a community in crisis. I think there is some kind of, in my opinion, thrashing out the still going on that maybe we need that. I don't know. But we're not a community in crisis in that way. The crisis in our community is emotional health and this isn't helping, I don't think, with this kind of thing. But those divides will always be there and I think they're hard to navigate. People above our pay grade, mike will have to think about that down the line, who knows? But I know you've done your bit to try and think about these things and I think you're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Speaker 2:But yeah, ultimately we've got to put out what we are passionate about from our point of view and not have to say you must do this.
Speaker 2:Remember those three types of people.
Speaker 2:There are those who get it great, there are those who don't, but the big bulk in the middle who are actually a lot of professionals who are still weighing things up. When I put out my Phantom of the Operant article years ago, it was interesting. I had loads of criticism from the positive community, but I had the most nicest emails from the balance community who said to me this makes sense to me about I've been feeling a bit uncomfortable about some of this stuff, but all I'd had was pointy finger about how to do task differently. This makes sense to me because I think actually I didn't think about the terms of relief or what the animal might be going through. So we can make a difference. Let's focus on those people in the middle that we can influence. You're going to knock your head against a brick wall. You're just going to be have smashing heads. I think that's just my view. But I definitely don't want to say to those of our colleagues who are really passionate about stuff to lose that passion. We've just got to protect ourselves in the process.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it all rounds out kind of full circle for me and what you said earlier in the show about invitation, it's all about invitation and extending.
Speaker 2:Invitation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very, very well, everything's an invitation.
Speaker 2:Everything is an invitation and, as I say, we have to protect ourselves in the process and we have to make huge changes. Mike, we mustn't lose that. I look at my local area and see how many dogs are in harnesses, for example. That's a huge shift. And in here in the UK, all the main players the Kennel Club, rspca, dogs Trust they're all advocating in that way. We have a few crap TV shows. I know we have some people using social media. I know One thing to bear in mind as well is many of our clients that we work with.
Speaker 2:It's going to be hard to shift them because they, for whatever reason, often through their own trauma are stuck with their own belief system. I get emails from people saying well, how do I, if I go and turn up to somebody I'm trying to get them to see their dogs, emotional care and support needs, and they're pointing out all these barriers. There are ways that we can have technique-wise to keep inviting them to find out, but there are some people. Our job isn't to try and change them. It's remember, it's an invitation of supported awareness. Not everybody's ready for it and there could be all sorts of reasons for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, flat those seeds, great those ripples of change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What a way to wrap up the show. I've got to say I could talk to you for hours, but I do want to respect your time. I do want to give you time also to shout out. You know, where can people find out more about you and what are you up to next?
Speaker 2:So Dog Centre Care is the place.
Speaker 2:That's my group. It's got a bit nuts really. We're up to nearly 10,000 members. So just to show people want to find out. If you create that safe space, people will come I think that's the key and hear things. And there are no absolutes about kindness. That's what my mother used to say and I think even in the dog world there are no absolutes. You know, people need to take the threads that mean something to them and find those things and grow. We all grow. We're all at different stages in that group. So Dog Centre Care is the place.
Speaker 2:Interestingly, I'm launching soon I don't know when this is going out but a new little kind of initiative called Safe Space, which is about mentoring and supervision, but on a very one-to-one basis. I want to provide a space for well, obviously be a limited number of people to have that supervision, so every month that's their safe space to talk about what they want. And then also mentoring, but not mentoring necessarily on the practical side of dog training, but how to do these kind of consultations, how to think about protecting emotional safety. And that includes the caregivers, because there's a big band of people out there that I call expert carers. Some of them have got more knowledge than me, mike.
Speaker 2:It's amazing some of the people that reach out to me, I think, wow, they've done every course right. They just want to do the best for their dog. Where's their support? It's hard sometimes, so that's called Safe Space, to look out for that and just continuing to grow. I think the most important thing about self-compassion two component parts First is be humbled and second, give ourselves grace, and I think if we just try and stay with that, it helps to navigate stuff.
Speaker 1:Very, very well said, andrew. Thank you so, so much for coming on the show and just spreading all of your wisdom and insight. I highly agree. It's something that we need to talk about more in our industry, and so I'm really really happy that you're able to come on and talk about this, thanks, Mike, it's always great to talk to you Great. I hope to see you again in the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, likewise.
Speaker 1:I really enjoyed this chat with Andrew. It's like he was my own personal therapist, as he truly understands the human side of the work we do. I'm looking forward to hearing more from him in the future, and don't forget to head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression, From the Aggression in Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you are listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening in and stay well, my friends.