Unleashing the Joys and Challenges of Dog Rescue: Insights from Andrea Dinan and Carla Filies

Get ready to unearth the profound joys and challenges of the dog rescue journey with our special guests, Andrea Dinan and Carla Filies. Together, we unravel the complexities of helping a rescue pup adjust to a new home environment. We tap into a pandemic silver lining that catapulted the trend of dog adoption, providing rescues with a loving home, and address the behavioral issues that often come with these canine companions due to their unique histories.
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ABOUT ANDREA AND CARLA:

Andrea Dinan - CPDT-KA, FFCT, KAD, LFDM-T

Andrea’s specialties lie in helping dogs and their guardians navigate the canine-human relationship to assure success in training no matter the age of your dog nor the issue at hand.

Andrea’s main goal is to make training fun, effective and motivating for dogs and humans through evidence-based training methods.

Each dog is looked at as an individual; what works for one may not work for another. With Andrea’s experience and education, she has a variety of ways to achieve training goals focusing on setting up you and your dog for success, utilizing what motivates your dog and effective communication.

Andrea Dinan and City Dogs was the recipient of the following awards through the International Positive Dog Trainers Association:

Dog Training Excellence Award
Excellence in Boarding and Sitting Award

Andrea also received the Toronto Star’s Reader’s Choice Platinum Award in 2021 for Dog Training.

Andrea is also the Founder of EduCanine, an organization that provides in-person and online workshops and courses for dog parents and dog professionals on a variety of topics to help with common issues. Workshops and courses are taught by a collaboration of reputable and certified dog trainers. EduCanine was the recipient of the Education Award through www.ipdt.org in 2020.

Andrea is a true dog nerd and is constantly researching and studying behavior, motivations, techniques and best practices to help dogs live their best life with their guardians.

Andrea is also a Canine Good Neighbour Exam Evaluator through the Canadian Kennel Club and is a therapy dog team with her vizsla, Galaxy as well as Midtown Co-Ordinator for the Therapeutic Paws of Canada.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

If you own a rescue dog or have volunteered or fostered for rescues, or simply want to learn more about really useful strategies to help dogs adjust to their new homes, this episode is for you. Both Andrea Dynan and Carla Filet joined me for this insightful episode packed with helpful advice for our rescue friends. And if you are enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there are a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression in Dogs conference happening from September 29th through October 1st 2023 in Chicago, illinois, with both in-person and online options. You can also learn more about the Aggression in Dogs Master course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues.

Speaker 1: 0:57

Hi everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. I have not one, but two special guests with me this week. We're going to be jumping into the topic of rescue and all of the things we can do to help rescue dogs and their people. So I've got Andrea Dynan and Carla Filet with me this week and we're going to be jumping right in. So welcome to the show, guys.

Speaker 2: 1:19

Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 1: 1:21

Yes yes, I'm excited for this episode because I got started in rescue. So anybody that's known me for a while I always tell that story where I actually that's how I got my start in training and behavior is doing the typical fostering and then they start sending you more difficult fosters as they start to learn your own experienced foster home. So that kind of wet my appetite for behavior and then eventually aggression, because to help the dogs I realized that one of the best things you can do is really just help them with their behavior issues. That got them sometimes into rescue in the first place. So I'd love to hear more about how you guys got into it. How did the rescue plan come about and what got you into all this wonderful information you're putting out there?

Speaker 2: 2:03

That is one of the silver linings of COVID. So, because we were shut down and also because so many rescues were coming into the city and we're getting calls and emails trying to help these rescues adjust, carla and I had some time and we worked so well together that we thought, well, let's help these people and let's answer some of these common questions that we have and also support some of the rescue organizations that are reaching out for help.

Speaker 3: 2:32

Yeah, so Andrea got a message from a woman named Lorraine and Lorraine reached out to us it was right at the beginning of the pandemic and she wanted to know if she could put together kind of some really quick webinars, you know, about kind of like how to help people or like common problems and stuff. So we were able to kind of like reach out to some other trainers that we knew, ask them if they wanted to help and do kind of like these quick little videos and from there I think it just kind of like snowballed. Lorraine was really happy with it. We were getting really good responses, we were doing kind of like live webinars and had really nice audiences. We're getting great feedback.

Speaker 3: 3:17

Continue with the pandemic.

Speaker 3: 3:19

Everybody was getting rescue dogs and then restrictions loosened up a little bit and Andrea and I kept on getting the same phone calls, the same questions, and you know we talked to each other a lot during the week about our cases and we kind of noticed the similarity and the questions that we were getting and we were just doing the same thing over and over again and we felt like a little bit of burnout, honestly, because when you're doing the same thing over and over again multiple times a day.

Speaker 3: 3:50

It gets exhausting. You start to lose a little bit of not really lose your empathy, but a little bit of your patience, because you're just like you feel like you're just on record over and over again and then you start feeling bad going. Am I giving people the best of me if I'm just kind of feel like I'm on a loop and really that's how it came about. We're just like let's compile the most FAQ things like the frequently asked questions, and let's talk about the common problems that we're seeing as well, and that's really where it came up with. You know the idea.

Speaker 1: 4:25

That's awesome, as Andrea was mentioning. It's like the silver lining of the pandemic, right that you gave you that time to actually create all of this, and I echo all everything you're saying, because you do find yourself repeating the same things over and over. So why not create content that says, hey, I don't have to keep saying that, just check this out, and it's exactly what I'm going to say over an hour's time, and now I don't have to do it a million times in a row, right?

Speaker 3: 4:46

Yeah, so it's cost effective for people, because that was the other thing too. People are losing their jobs or worrying about their income. We were able to do things in a cost effective manner, so it was lots of value for your dollar. And then if they got to the end of the program and they were still having problems, that's when you know you needed to bring in a trainer, right?

Speaker 1: 5:06

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:07

Yeah, so it helps filter it.

Speaker 1: 5:08

Let's talk about those problems you just mentioned. So we're seeing significantly more dogs coming from rescues or shelters versus being purchased, and I think the consumers, at least in the United States and Canada perhaps, are. We're seeing more and more movement towards let's adopt a dog rather than purchasing a dog, and I'm going to just state this I believe there's nothing wrong with purchasing a dog from an ethical breeder, but we do see a trend, though, towards adoption and rescue, and with that, though, of course, we see behavior issues, because some of those dogs I was just mentioning, they come from different backgrounds and different experiences, in which we see behavior issues accumulate over time, or that dogs individual experiences. So for you guys, let's just jump in. That's a broad question, but what are the most common issues you're seeing and kind of things that you would consider or have motivated you to create the rescue plan?

Speaker 2: 6:01

Yeah, first of all is just not giving the dogs enough time to really settle into their environment, whether it be the conner or the house itself. I think a lot of people they're really, really excited about their rescue and we put them into situations or environments that are overwhelming, which can cause the reactivity and the stranger danger and stress and anxiety I found definitely over the pandemic because people weren't coming over. Once people start to come over, during those little blips where you were allowed to socialize, having people come into your house was a huge problem for these dogs Like wow, there's more people than you. And, of course, living in the city, having dogs who are coming from Northern Canada even, and then coming to Toronto, that's a culture shock in itself for the dog all the noises, all the people, all the other dogs. So I think a lot of it is really adjustment and helping the dogs feel comfortable where they are and build confidence.

Speaker 3: 7:06

Yeah, I think, to piggyback on that too, for the most part who I've experienced in a rescue, everybody has such a big heart, right, the rescue groups, the people that are adopting, and I think it's innately in our nature to want to try to love things better and so again, it's that thing of I just want to do the very, very best for you, which I love.

Speaker 3: 7:28

No arguments from me on that. But it's like sometimes we just don't allow the dog, like Andrew was saying, to just to acclimate a little bit before we start getting overly familiar. One of the analogies I use with a lot of my clients is it's like a two-hands-y date, someone who's just a little bit too forward and wants to love you a little bit too hard. I'm like you got to kind of court, you got to kind of sit back and kind of get a feel for everything, and because we just are so excited and we're so, we just want to love everything and make everything okay. Yeah, sometimes we rush in a little bit too much. And, as Andrew said, living in the city thing we live in a very, very dense city, lots of condos, lots of 500 square foot boxes in the sky.

Speaker 3: 8:16

This is not typical of what a lot of these dogs are coming from, and then elevators and people and lobbies and noises and garbage trucks. It's overwhelming and I think we need to. I think patience is sometimes the biggest hurdle.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard that, but I love that. The 500 square foot boxes in the sky that's brilliant because it's so. When you think about it you're like, wow, that totally makes sense, because that's exactly what it is to a dog to us. It's a home, but or apartment but, it's just totally makes sense.

Speaker 1: 8:48

So I think there's, as you were speaking there, you guys were talking about, you know, some of the issues that can happen to a dog that is brought into a home. So I think we can also separate out, or we should probably, as we go along through the conversation of dogs that have preexisting issues. So they come in, maybe the owner's already aware or their adopter is already aware of aggression issues in the past or things we do that eventually bring that out or perhaps create it in some cases too. So so we'll kind of navigate those different aspects as we go along. But let's talk about that.

Speaker 1: 9:20

There's a lot of strategies and memes and different ways of expressing what we should do with a dog that comes to our home, like, so, a new dog, adopted dog or a rescue dog, you know. So we hear things like the three, three, three rule or some different aspects from the rescue world or the messaging right, and maybe we'll jump into that first. The three, three, three rule. So for people that may not be aware of what that is, can you kind of explain what that is and then what your thoughts around it are?

Speaker 2: 9:47

Yeah. So the three, three, three rule tends to be three days, three weeks, three months, and it gives people a timeframe of how long it'll take for the dog to start to acclimate into a new environment. So three days, you know they're starting to maybe come out of their shell a little bit. You might see a little bit more of their personality. Three weeks, you'll probably see a little bit more energy. They're a bit more bouncy. You're going to see more of their likes and dislikes. And three months, they should be feeling more at home, so a little bit more confident. But I'll let Carla explain why that can be deceiving and in some cases a little dangerous.

Speaker 3: 10:28

Yeah. So I have two rescues. One is a 17 year old kind of hound mix and then right before the pandemic started it was December I got my little Jack Russell cross puppy. If I was gonna use the 3-3-3 rule on her, her first three was like three minutes. Girl was fine, she came into my home like she owned it, she loved her brother, everything was great.

Speaker 3: 10:54

That's kind of the dream that everybody wants, but the reality is it's like that first three days it kind of sets you up for a bit of a false sense of timeline sometimes. And so again, if we kind of give very structured days, people are just kind of like oh, three days, okay, I'm taking her to the dog park now, right, oh, I'm gonna invite everybody over. And again it's that patience part that we were talking about earlier it sets people up almost for a false sense of what the dog is gonna be capable of, as opposed to actually being watchful and kind of going through kind of a list of check marks like, hey, how are we doing here If we introduce this kind of thing? Are you gonna be okay with that? If you give people a very structured kind of set of days and hours, people are gonna really follow that, as opposed to again checking in with the dog to see actually how the dog is feeling about things.

Speaker 2: 11:51

Yeah, because we love timelines, right? Yeah, I love a timeline.

Speaker 3: 11:56

But again if you keep it really strict, I don't think allows for a lot of breathing room for the dogs that aren't doing well, like so. Pippa, my youngest. She's from Mexico. She had to get here via flight and stuff like that. Flight for a young dog can be really distressing. We don't know where some of these rescues are coming from. We don't know how stressful their travel was. There's a lot of I don't knows, right. So then by the time they get to your house, I don't know where your stress level is. I don't know what your experience is, so I don't wanna say it's the worst rule. The 333 is not the worst rule in the world, but I think that you have to allow for a little bit of expansion in that and use it as a loose guideline.

Speaker 1: 12:37

Yes, I think that's the operative word. There's a loose guideline or flexibility in it.

Speaker 1: 12:42

Because, I think it's helpful in this, like we should be aware that dogs need time to adjust, which is nice, but it also yeah, cause like my dog, izzy, she was more on the three second rule. She's like, and within three seconds I'm going to latch onto my lab. The other dog went home to the lab so like I'm gonna go grab that dog and bite and hold and shake and I'll let go as a 12 week old puppy in three seconds. So we went on like a three year plan with her.

Speaker 1: 13:09

And she ended up in the right home, fortunately, but yeah, that was my little Izzy who's still alive today, but yeah, so what other things that are you seeing that you think could be adjusted for that we should be aware of when we are talking about dogs that are coming from rescue?

Speaker 2: 13:25

Well, I think the hard part is we may not have a history or like a very you know all the dog might have lived here and sometimes don't even know what kind of dog it is. So if you want to work with the dog without knowing what their likes, what their fears are, that can be really tough. And also, you know genetically, what would they like to do? You know, are they a guardian dog? Are they a herding dog? Are they a hunting dog? To try and get them into activities that might help to decompress them a little bit.

Speaker 2: 13:57

I think that's tough for people because a lot of people think that all dogs will like the same thing. You know, here's a ball, go fetch it. And so many people say, well, I got the dog a ball and it doesn't know what to do with it, or toys or anything plastic, or because maybe the dog's never seen those before. So finding out what the dog likes and how we can help them through these, get some fun activities to help them have fun and realize their space is safe, can be difficult for people as well.

Speaker 1: 14:30

How about you, Kala? Do you think you want to add to that, or?

Speaker 3: 14:33

No, I think that's about it. I think teaching, you know, obviously, creating safe spaces, bonding exercises, creating confidence building activities. It's really funny, a lot of people we walk around with shoes on our feet all day long. We don't understand that we touch so many different surfaces.

Speaker 3: 14:53

A dog is like going through hardwood floors, carpeting, tiling, stairs, gravel, asphalt, and it's a simple thing. That's just an example, but these are things that that dog may never have experienced in their life and every time they take a step it's a new sensation. You know, it's like we talk about these things, kind of like I don't think you guys are considering all of the the different elements that are going into the new experience. So, yeah, again, it's just allowing the dog to kind of like acclimate to all things smells, touch, sound and getting that brain working through really nice enrichment activities. Andrea is really masterful at using kind of space like games that require a lot of space, like with flirt poles. I use a lot of trick training to kind of again connect through space, like safe space, but also through like positive interactions to kind of create that bond that doesn't include, you know, always playing tug or wrestling on the ground.

Speaker 1: 15:53

Yeah, I was gonna say it's like you have to put yourself in their shoes, but that would actually be the wrong kind of phrase for that right yeah they're not shoes, but you were talking about, like, different substrates and like. So for me, like I remember some of the rescue dogs, that a lot of them come from the South or Southern States and the US and some of those homes, there's no stairs, there's no. It's like there's maybe there's three or four stairs to get up to that single level but there's all single level homes.

Speaker 1: 16:16

Yeah, they don't know how to use the stairs sometimes something you don't think about, but I've had so many cases where I actually had to teach the dogs, you know, because my previous home was they had two floors, but to get down to the backyard is you had to go down the deck stairs and some of them were like what is that?

Speaker 2: 16:30

Why is it?

Speaker 1: 16:31

so scary.

Speaker 3: 16:31

You had to help them, like you know, to shape them, to use the stairs, just so those are the things that and sometimes you don't have the back of the stairs so it's completely see through and it's like what they're seeing is just like space that goes on for miles on, like a really thin little board, or even just collars and leashes themselves.

Speaker 2: 16:49

Some dogs never had one on, and so so, yeah, yeah, we're talking about different textures and putting on equipment and going downstairs and lobbies and elevators, and you know when you put yourself in the point of view of the dogs.

Speaker 2: 17:05

I just look at some of them and go, wow, how do you guys get over this? This is a lot. I lived in South Korea for a year and a half. I'll never forget the first week I was there. I didn't know anybody. I was there to teach English. I couldn't speak the language I lived in literally I think my apartment was the size of this room. I cried when I walked into it because I'm like I have to live in this, but that's what people lived in there. And then one day there's this noise. I woke up to a loud speaker and actually have in the first part of the rescue plan what it sounded like, and I thought we were going to war because, of course, you know, I'm near the border of North Korea.

Speaker 2: 17:45

So I woke up you know, I texted my principal and I said what is that noise? Is everything okay? Should I get out? And she goes. Oh no, sorry, I forgot to tell you it's just the fruit truck that goes around every morning announcing the deals. So but here I am, like hiding under the bed, you know, and of course it's normal to them. So they think to warn me, no, we're not going to war. So I can kind of identify with these dogs in a way of simple things like ordering a coffee Some warnings was really difficult, you know cup coffee mood milk.

Speaker 2: 18:25

How do I tell them and I'm sure the dogs you know, not able to communicate with us very well how they're feeling? And that's why we focus a lot on body language in the program, so that we can see through those subtle signs, you know the whale eyes, the tail, the opposite and freeze and help them through these things that we don't think are scary, but they do.

Speaker 1: 18:47

Yeah, that's such a, I think, a great story. Not that it's great that you were going through that tough time but it's a great sense of us relating you know, we can really understand and see it through your lens there of how a dog might experience that, especially coming, moving to a different environment. And we have to think about that. Where the dogs come from, their world could be completely different in that 500 square foot box in the sky versus, you know, having five million square feet of acreage to roam around on maybe in a previous environment.

Speaker 1: 19:19

All right, so I wanna. There's a lot of questions swirling around in my head, so forgive me for a moment as I wrap my head around that Cause I also did want to jump back to what you're talking about with the breeds and knowing the breed. So it kind of does formulate into all of this like taking a step back and looking at the individual dog's needs, and that's why the 333 rule is not gonna apply to every single dog. Each dog is unique and breed certainly matters and you know I love that that topic's getting back into the conversation as well. You know, through Kim Brophy's work and ethology and talking about, you know, meeting breed specific needs. But I think there's also that education component which I love seeing as well.

Speaker 1: 19:56

I know there's a lot of initiatives about hey, before you actually get that dog, maybe you should think about what breed and sometimes we don't know. Well, there's a lot of mixed breeds, of course, so shout out to the mixed breeds. But if we do know the breed, we should research. You know, am I getting this Central Asian Shepherd, knowing what I'm getting into, or should I opt for a different breed? So yeah, all right, so let's jump into along those lines. We already started talking about what we can do to help these dogs, cause I also wanna talk about what we can do to help the people more. But let's talk, let's focus on the dogs first. And you mentioned decompression, so let's, maybe we should start there, so kind of move through your steps as well in the rescue plan. But decompression, what is that and why is it helpful?

Speaker 3: 20:41

Good, andrew, what do you want? Well, we're so polite, we're so Canadian. So Decompression, it's really just getting comfortable, getting used to your space, understanding your space, understanding how things move, the expectation of how things move and how people move and what sounds are gonna be happening. You know I'm a big Frady cat. I couldn't imagine living my life through like a horror movie where things are like jumping out at me all the time and you know, and sometimes that's kind of these jump scares or kind of what dogs are are first experiencing, you know, the furnace turning on in the winter time. What is that? Where's the air coming from? What is that?

Speaker 3: 21:27

You know you have kids running around. Kids they don't make normal noises a lot of the times, right, like you know, I don't have kids but Andrea does and you know it's like every now and then in the background, I just hear, you know, her son peeling by, like making a noise, and I'm like amazing, that's a great noise and you know she's done great work. Her dog, you know, is so used to it, but it takes time to get used to those things. Cars what else is going on?

Speaker 3: 21:56

Garbage trucks, you know air brakes, all those things that dogs really have to understand. You know, those garbage trucks come around once a week, right, and they start to understanding the rhythm and the routine of things and they can start not you know, start just kind of relaxing. They might lift their head and go, oh, what's that? Oh, is it a Tuesday again? Oh, okay, and that's kind of where you want to get, where you're not having these jump-scarer moments and things just start to be routine sounds and routine movements that they can predict, because consistency is actually what's going to help these guys build trust and confidence.

Speaker 1: 22:33

Yes, yes, and so I think, if we're to look at what's happening there, we might argue that there's some desensitization, maybe some habituation to the environment as well.

Speaker 1: 22:42

So maybe, andrew, you can answer. My next question is like what do we do giving that time for the dog to decompress, so they're in our home for the first few days, or 10 days, or whatever it takes? Is there things we should be doing as the guardian or as their adoptive home? Or do we kind of take a step back and be like let's just let you chill out and get used to the environment? Or should we be more proactive or more involved? So what are your thoughts there?

Speaker 2: 23:08

As any trainer would say, it depends. We do have a nice little general outline in the first part of the rescue plan that can help people with decompression and we really focus on helping the dogs lower their cortisol levels through things like sniffing and licking, giving them space if they seem fearful. So a fearful dog who really isn't ready to come up to you or elicit any sort of touch or pets, then those would be the dogs that I would say yes, just hang back. And you know, like Carla said before, it's just like dating like I like you, I want you to like me, but I'll give you your space and let you come to me when you're ready. Then you might have dogs who are all over you and you know we might have to use that decompression to actually calm them down. Like you know, younger puppy dogs, adolescent dogs.

Speaker 2: 24:05

But what's nice about these decompression activities is it'll work in either way. So like snuffle mats, treasure hunts, creating a safe space where they know they can go and nobody will touch them or bother them, whether you have kids or, yes, coming over, I think creating, you know, not a strict routine but a basic routine of their day, like getting up, taking them out for their pee. If you're taking them out for a pee Some dogs we recommend that you don't that you have a pee pad set up. If you're in a condo, for example, giving them if they are playful, you know time to play and, like we're talking about games that encourage space, like flirt, poles or tricks or maybe playing ball, and then just doing some very simple training, you know a hand target if they're ready for that, a sit, their name, say their name through a treat, say their name through a treat, and that's about it.

Speaker 2: 25:04

And a lot of people ask well, how long will this decompression take? Because, again, we love timelines, we like to know how this is going to fit into our schedule and that, again it goes back to the dog, and we explained that in the first part as well. When your dog starts and you see their body relax, when you see them stretching a lot, when you see them coming up to you and eliciting attention, when they're not perking up at every sound in your dwelling, those are times when you can say, okay, I think we're ready to move to the next step.

Speaker 3: 25:41

Yeah, sleep is a really good indicator. Sleep, you know, are we getting some routine sleep, especially during the day, not just, you know, when the sun goes down? Do we have a sleep routine? Do we have a food routine? Right, is the dog doing its daily functions to actually fully relax, to eat safely, to sleep safely? Those are really good indicators to us, that you know. Okay, we're probably going to be ready to move on to some other things.

Speaker 1: 26:10

Yeah, yeah. And this gets me thinking about resiliency as well, and that you know any animal or human as far as being able to cope with stress. So resiliency is sort of being able to deal with those life stressors or those moments and it doesn't matter what dog it is, you know going to a new home and being shifted around without kind of knowing what's next. Because at least when we go to a new home we know that maybe we're just visiting somebody for dinner. We're not going to be there for the rest of our lives, but for dogs they don't know, right, and so at any time it's going to be stressful. I always remind people, my clients, that too is like any change in the environment is going to be stressful, and I kind of use myself as an example sometimes. You know, if you asked me 10 years ago, hey, mike, you know I'm going to get you to a workshop in New York or DC or something like that. So you got to fly out there and you got to.

Speaker 1: 26:56

I would have been a wreck, it would have taken me days. I would have been like all right, I got to get there three days before so I can acclimate, decompress, get used to the routine and that's just a couple hundred miles away from me. But so it took time. I mean it took a long time for me to get used to all right traveling, and we have to think about that. For dogs we don't even think about like a time zone change. Sometimes, like we, if I fly somewhere that's like four hours or 10 hour difference, it takes me days to catch up to my you know my circadian rhythm, to get sort of reset a little bit and decompress in that environment. But now, of course, because I built the resiliency over time you know it's like I've been shifted around to 50 different hundreds of different homes now too, but because I know what to expect. But I think that resiliency is important to understand because you know now I can, let's say, fly to Japan or something like that and be kind of know what to expect.

Speaker 3: 27:45

No, it gets easier.

Speaker 1: 27:46

Yeah, yeah so yeah, but we have to kind of look at the dogs in the same way. So do you think, if somebody is like what do we look for guys? So like, all right, so how do we know when the dog is deep for us? So you talk, you mentioned like some of the behaviors, the stretching, the relax, but let's maybe dive deeper into that. Do you see, like particular behaviors or patterns or interactions with the person that you would say are okay, this dog is feeling pretty good here? I think we can start to go into some of the next steps we're going to talk about.

Speaker 3: 28:12

Yeah, play like initiating play and I say to a lot of my clients, like asses and elbows, when you see a lot of elbows going, down and butts in the air you know, that's when a dog is like really trying to draw you in to their game, and that's that's a great invitation. That's an invitation that makes me happy every day when I get it from my dogs.

Speaker 2: 28:35

And dogs who are super stressed probably won't feel like playing, like us, right.

Speaker 3: 28:40

No, play is not. That is not on the menu for dogs who are stressed. You know, obviously we want to look for nice relaxed features and happy ears and eyes and relaxed panting and bellies up. You know stuff like that. Those are. That's the happy dog scenario. For dogs that aren't quite there yet, you know, are they still kind of going away and like moving as you're moving. If you get up from the sofa to go into your kitchen and your dog is relaxing, do they get up and move in the opposite direction or try to get more space Right? Because they're again. They're just like. I'm not quite convinced. We're good sharing the same room, but if you move, are you coming towards me? What's happening here? Yeah, like that's a bit of a, like an orange flag maybe like just a kind of a.

Speaker 3: 29:32

They're not quite ready yet.

Speaker 2: 29:34

And you see that a lot with happens quite often who have men in the household. I find it's very common for the dogs to be more fearful of men, and I do use that as an indicator. You know, if the dog is still not safe in where they eat and sleep and are spending their life, chances are when you take them outside for a long walk or to a new environment, it's going to probably be worse. So just wait until. Wait until the dogs comfortable with all their people in the household.

Speaker 3: 30:06

Yeah, at the beginning of our program we actually use kind of a bullseye diagram. So in the bullseye, like the center of the bullseye, that's home, okay, and each ring out of that is further away from their safest spot, right? So if the dog is starting to give you, you know, butts and elbows in the home, now might be the next time to start seeing. Hey, how are we in the front yard, in the backyard and the lobby of the building, like, or in the hallway of the building that we're living in, like, let's change the environment, not drastically slightly, just the next ring out and let's see if that translates. Let's see how long it takes you to acclimate to that new space.

Speaker 3: 30:48

And, as you were saying, mike, you know traveling now is a lot easier for you, right? You might still have the butterflies. You might be a little bit nervous about going and excited nervous about going to a new space, but you find the rhythm a lot easier, right. And if you can kind of root that in into your safest space when you go to a new space, you might have the nervous butterflies, but you're going to start to kind of work your way through it a lot faster, right, you're going to have the support of your person with you, you're going to be able to look for key things how people move again, acclimate like really quickly and have better expectations faster.

Speaker 1: 31:24

So if you don't move too quickly, yeah, and you guys made a beautiful distinction too about because I was going to ask you know, how do you know when to actually try to elicit play right, because some dogs won't do it until you actually start to do it. And how do you know when to do that? Because that's a probably a big question you guys get to, but you answered it beautifully. Like the dog's going to approach you if you walk away and you'll see it, or the dog's going to move away. It's almost like a question of consent, like all right, you want to say consent testing is something that I really use a lot, especially when we're working with families.

Speaker 3: 31:54

You know I get on the floor a lot with my dogs every day but one of the things that I teach you know a lot, and especially people who are really handsy players. I'm kind of like, okay, we're going to pretend like this is soccer. No one's allowed to use their hands. Right, you're allowed to elicit and see if your dog wants to play with you. Get on the ground, drop down to your elbow butts in the air, kind of look a little bit over your shoulder and kind of see if the dog wants to approach you. If the dog is interested, you know you're saying, hey, do you want to play? If the dog walks away, no, not this time.

Speaker 1: 32:29

Yeah, yeah, you know and that's okay. Yes, so I'm glad we answered that question too, because I'm sure it's a big one for a lot of new adopters or foster parents as well.

Speaker 1: 32:38

So, all right, we're going to take a short break to hear words from our sponsors, but when we come back I'd love to dive more into how to help these dogs and sort of more of those rings of the bullsire talking about I love that. So we'll be right back. Hey friends, don't forget to join me for the fourth annual aggression and dogs conference, either in person or online from Chicago, illinois, happening from September 29th through October 1st 2023. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you've heard on the podcast, including Sue Sternberg, dr Tim Lewis, dr Christine Calder, sinthor Bangal, sarah Stremming, sean Will and Masa Nishimuta, and many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and veterinary behavior cases to working with aggression in shelter environments to intra household dog dog aggression. We'll also have special guest emcees, taylor Barconi and Geo Arcade, who are sure to bring their positive and uplifting vibe to the conference. And, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in person and online. I also want to take a moment to thank one of our wonderful sponsors this year Pets for Vets.

Speaker 1: 34:00

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Speaker 1: 35:25

That's PetsforVetscom, all right, we are back with Andrea and Carla. We've been talking about rescue and all things rescue dogs as well. So before we took the break we're talking about the bullsye and kind of I love that sort of picture in my mind of moving out towards the outer ring. So let's say we've gotten past the stage of decompression. The dog is elbows and butts with us and we're seeing more signs inside the home. So the dog's getting more comfortable in our environment, in our small little universe, our little 500 square foot box in the sky. And so what are next steps? I know that you guys start to go to outside environments. What do we look for there and what can, what can adopters sort of do to help their dog in those moments?

Speaker 2: 36:11

Yeah, outside is it can be tricky, but it can also go quite quickly again if you're watching the dog in front of you. I know everyone's super excited to go on a nice big hike or a big walk with their dog. Maybe take them to the dog park, if they're known to be dog friendly, but one step at a time. Because once you walk out that door, dogs whether they're rescues or not are bombarded by new smells and sights and sounds, and I find a lot of dogs really need to take anywhere from three to 10 seconds just to take it in. So that's usually how I like to start and then watch, watch your dog. If you call their name, are they able to look at you or are they just gone, especially squirrels. I don't know what it is about rescues from Texas and squirrels, but they just. They either love them way too much or are terrified of them. So you know, if they see a squirrel, are they lunging after it? Are you able to call them back? Is this something that you need to work on? And where do you go? When you go outside?

Speaker 2: 37:16

I like to take things slow, so for new rescues I'm like just take them around the block and see how they do and start doing that and do a regular routine walk so that the sights don't change as much, but of course the smells and the sounds will be changing every time they go. I find a lot of people who take their dogs, their rescue dogs, to a new place every walk. It's just some of them, not all of them. Some of them will start to shut down again because their quarters all goes up and they feel like they can't cope with all this newness. So I like things to be quite routine. You know the same path and once again you see kind of a little bit more of a trot in their step and you call their name and they can focus. They're not zoning out too much. Then you can start to expand it, maybe to two blocks or to the park nearby.

Speaker 3: 38:11

Yeah, I completely agree with Andrea. And you know, sometimes I even take it further, like I either slow it down even more and I work with, like, aside from rescues, I also work with a lot of puppies and young dogs and stuff like that. And I kind of do the same thing in that decompression, exposure kind of thing and say you're in that 500 square foot box in the sky. Sometimes, you know, if you have a balcony, sometimes one of the best things that you can do is allow your dog to sit on the balcony and actually be in a relaxed position with the dog. So you sit down, dogs looking out, kind of experiencing watching the city from again. Space is such an important thing for dogs and if a dog can observe something in a safe way, so you have a, you know, a balcony. It's just you and the dog and they're looking and they're seeing and they're smelling everything and they're hearing things and they're sensing.

Speaker 3: 39:04

Like we live in a four season country, right, this will be your first spring, your first summer, your first summer, your first autumn, your first winter, right? So again, every time you kind of go through these seasonal changes, I always say to people don't make assumptions that your dog is going to love the snow. My dogs hate the snow. So the first, you know, in the first snowfalls you want to experiencing that in a way that again is a very safely contained environment, to see how they respond to it and allow them again to experience it and hopefully find joy in it, because those, because those winters are long here. So, you know, hopefully we can get some rolling around in the snow, chasing snowballs, stuff like that.

Speaker 3: 39:45

And then sometimes again, if you're in like an apartment or condo complex, it's going out into the hallways, right, we have so many neighbors, so many smells and sounds, and you know all these kind of like fun house doors like what's behind door number one, what's behind door number two, other worlds, right, and never mind the elevator, that's, that's, that's a whole other, that's a whole other ring in itself. But if you live in a house.

Speaker 1: 40:08

It's a box that takes you to your box.

Speaker 3: 40:11

It is. It is a mad fun house. It really is doors open, closing like things popping up on the other side of the door. But if you live in a home again you can do this on your front porch. You can just on your front lawn sit with some food with your dog, watch the world go by in a very safe, like distance wise, and allow the dog to.

Speaker 3: 40:31

Again it might be on alert, like Andrew was saying, like it might be like oh my gosh, what's that? What's that? Ears up, eyes kind of looking around. Hopefully the dog will learn to just chill out and you'll see some yon's, maybe some shake offs, and then it might actually sit or lie down next to you and just enjoy kind of watching things go by. I do these exercises for maybe five to 15 minutes, depending on how the dog is, kind of expressing their stress levels and that's it. Then I go inside and we have a little celebration dance and maybe next time we make it to the sidewalk. You know like if you're dealing with a really nervous dog, sometimes you have to go that slow.

Speaker 2: 41:11

Yes, you know like like in those hallways are great.

Speaker 3: 41:15

You know a lot of treasure hunt. Okay, come back in. And then they love the hallway. Yeah, I leave little post it notes on the neighbor's doors just kind of like hey, so sorry you're gonna hear a lot of really happy me going, yes, yes, yes, as we're throwing food, and just to kind of let them know what time we're doing it so they don't think there's a mad woman just running up and down the hallway saying yes, yes, yes yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:40

Yeah, and you make. You brought up a really good point to there about feeling safe. So safety doesn't mean necessarily mean just keeping others safe from a dog that might bite. It means the dog. We must make sure the dog feels safe because you know again we're talking about some of these dogs are going to such new, strange environments because of just how the rescue system works. Sometimes we're getting dogs from different countries and different states and like, imagine moving to. This just got me thinking. Imagine like moving with your dog to like Australia and the dogs, he's their first kangaroo or something and they're like what? And all things on two feet that are on steroids and you know, they're probably like what is this weird looking animal?

Speaker 1: 42:18

And it's got to be very, very scary for them at first or just you know, it's just like us seeing some sort of green alien landing on our front lawn. It is totally new and we have to feel safe first before, and we've run the risk too, you know. So this is where behavior problems can start, is where we push it too fast, but God's just a kangaroo. But then that kangaroo does something like you know, startles them or does kangaroo things, and it starts the dog and we don't kind of advocate for the dog and making sure they feel safe. That's where the behavior problems can start.

Speaker 3: 42:48

So I love that you guys are talking about. Yeah, and it can be very impactful, like one event can be incredibly impactful and I don't want to fear monger and like, be like, oh, everything has to be so, kick gloves, but we do not know sometimes what is so impactful to these dogs.

Speaker 2: 43:07

That has, like, it's, an indelible mark on them so but the good thing is, you know, and I don't fear mongering, but what's nice is you just take a step back. Whoops pushed you too hard and you know I've been guilty of it with some dogs like, oh, I thought you could handle it. No, that was too much. We're going to move back a step. We're going to give you a couple of days just to. That was a little scary. Let's try that again and again. Going back to resilience, that's how you build it. Like, oh, that was too much. Today, let's give you a little vacation, staycation and let's try it again.

Speaker 1: 43:41

Yes, a little bit slow. It's like re, re decompress. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:45

Yeah, sometimes you have to and you know it's like if you move from house to house again, you got to give your dog like you might be excited about the move. It might be your dream house. Your dog might be freaking the heck out because it's nothing but ceramic tiles on the floor. Now, yeah Right, like your dog's nails are too long and they're like you know they're all over the place. Like you just have to give it a moment and just do check ins. It doesn't take long. Yeah, doesn't take long.

Speaker 1: 44:12

Yes, yes, check ins are important. So, speaking of checking in, let's check in with the people side of this, the rescue world. We can probably take a couple of different paths with this conversation. But the adopters let's talk about supporting the adopters. They're even the fosters. Maybe they adopt a dog and suddenly they're starting to see behavior issues. We start to see, over time, more and more behaviors. They discover things that they weren't told about. So kind of a big, broad question for you guys. But what are your thoughts on that and supporting the adoptive families as we navigate these journeys with all of these rescue dogs?

Speaker 2: 44:47

Again, it depends, but big question.

Speaker 2: 44:51

Yeah, I've had situations where I've had to say to the family this is not the right dog for you because the dog is just not thriving, or you know the environment, it's taking too long. Maybe some family members just don't have the patience to go through the decompression. So whenever I work with clients, I make sure that their needs and their emotions are also taken in account with this dog. You know it hasn't happened often, but there's been a couple of times where the dog is just not getting along with one family member. That family member is getting upset and it's creating a whole stressful environment for everybody in the household and that's not what it should be.

Speaker 2: 45:35

You know, months into having your rescue or any dog Otherwise, when things are going well, I really want people to see the small things that their dog is getting used to. Let's not look at, you know, having those loose leash walks in the sunset with other dogs in the park while kids are playing. That's awesome, but we might just have to celebrate the fact that you are able to get the leash on the dog today. You know, good for you, you did it. Yes, the dog is happy with that, and I like to create, you know, little small steps for these people so that they can check it off and say, yes, we are making progress, yeah.

Speaker 3: 46:15

Yeah, I call those small goals, big picture kind of moments where it's like you kind of have to break things down and understand that we are moving the boulder forward a little bit. I'm a big advocate for fosters. I love my foster people, I think fosters are incredibly important and you know, I always worry that fosters are going to get burnout because, as you mentioned right at the top, the more you do it, the more challenging of a dog you get, because they're like oh, mike can handle it. Mike, he's taken in three, four, five already. He's good, he's got this.

Speaker 3: 46:50

Fosters are really hard to find and I really don't want to lose people within our foster community.

Speaker 3: 46:55

I'd be a horrible foster, I'd adopt everything I take in regardless of the problem.

Speaker 3: 47:01

So I can't do it, but I want to make sure that we're supporting those people. So again, you know, when I talk to my fosters who have dogs that are struggling with or are trying to work with, I always remind them and again it's that small goal, big picture thing and the big picture for them is an adoptable dog. So I don't want them going through full training routines, I want them to focus on having a wonderful adoptive dog that can understand routine and have like some calming things so we can start to see who this dog is and what the best family would be for this dog. So that's how I support my fosters and that is making sure that their goal setting is at an appropriate level. You don't have to do everything. Let's get five really good things down that we're going to be really good at, that we're going to work at with this dog. It doesn't have to be everything that dog will learn everything with his family but let's do five things that are amazing so that we don't stress out.

Speaker 1: 48:07

Yes.

Speaker 3: 48:08

Yeah, and you know, for my training clients, sometimes I go in there and, like Andrea said, it feels like you're in a therapy session because the family is really, really stressed out for whatever reason. They've underestimated, you know, or overestimated what they're getting into, and so it's like how best do I again maybe help them reset their goals, help them understand that maybe we're asking too much, Maybe we need to drop the bar a little bit? You know, take the foot off the gas, take the pressure off of them and really hear about what their frustrations are, what their struggles are, and again, have just as much empathy for that end of the leash as the four-legged thing at the end of the leash. You know, like flows both ways.

Speaker 1: 48:52

Yeah, and you guys have a great saying too. I saw it when we were kind of talking before the show about it's not really about the destination, it's more about the journey right that we're taking with these dogs. And so in that regard you know you had mentioned empathy Karla about, and I obviously support that notion and kind of underlies all of my work. So when we're talking about that, one of the issues that come up in the rescue world too is that just like dog training, it's not, there's no regulation. So anybody really can say, at least in most countries, can just say you know, hey, I have a rescue, I'm going to start taking care of rescue dogs, and so with that, of course, without any kind of oversight or rules and air quotes, here issues can arise, so people can do things that are maybe not ethical and sometimes illegal.

Speaker 1: 49:40

But there's many other great rescues but they're also sort of having to bear the brunt of that unscrupulous behavior. So another big broad question but what are your thoughts there on supporting the rescues out there that are really just surviving out there but they're really putting in the hard work, they're being ethical, they're going through the heartbreak, they're the ones doing the hard work out in the field or fostering dogs, or navigating the conversations with potential adopters and go through adoption contracts and you know, there's just so much to it that sometimes the public doesn't see. So what are your thoughts there?

Speaker 2: 50:18

Just let's, let's throw some, some shout outs to the, to the rescues that we love, yeah, and that's not so much anymore, but it was a huge topic a couple of years ago in this city and we were fortunate enough. Carla mentioned Lorraine earlier in the podcast from Speaking of Dogs, who is just just a leader in just a fantastic human. Yeah, the support that she provides the Fosters and Adopters and of course she everyone takes the rescue plan, because she thought that this was, you know, such a nice central way to get everyone learning it on the same page. And you're right, there's a lot of, you know, smaller rescues that do things with both ends of the leash in mind, so they're supporting the people. You know, if it's not working out, if the people are stressed, they are okay to say it's fine, we're going to help you. You know there's another dog coming. Let's try to switch this up so everybody feels more comfortable. Yeah, the vetting is great.

Speaker 2: 51:17

I guess you know you really have to ask the rescues some questions. You know they ask you questions, but you have to ask, like, what happens if this isn't working out? Or what kind of support will you give me if I'm, you know, the next morning going? Ah, what did I do? I don't know what to do with this dog. Like, can I talk to somebody, or is there someone who can walk me through what to do? You know what kind of training, or is it all a lot of marketing? And then you sign up and pay your money and you get a dog, and then that's it which can happen.

Speaker 3: 51:50

Yeah, I'd like to think that people who get into rescue have some of the biggest, kindest hearts, right, they are all heart as they're moving through the world and they want to do good for these dogs, and I'm not saying that they don't. But you only know what you know. You only know what you gain through experience and through mistakes. So, yeah, people are going to fall and they're going to have mistakes and they're going to do the wrong thing, but they're going to learn and bounce back from it. So, again, I think, giving grace to newer, smaller rescues that maybe don't have all the resources, but they're trying and they're reaching out and reaching out to us, reaching out to other rescues to help. But, yeah, like Andrea said, interview your rescue just as much as they interview you. Ask the hard questions what are you going to do if, after a couple of weeks, this dog isn't working out? What happens if there's aggression with another animal in my house or they don't like children? We know how hard it is to properly vet a dog behaviorally. Right, it's almost impossible in a rescue situation. Right, we're going to have high stress all the way across the board. We're not seeing the truest colors of this dog and kind of what their full potential is. So, yeah, we're peeling back layers of this onion of a dog's behavior and sometimes we're going to hit kind of a not so rosy patch on that and do we have support to deal with that? Hopefully, that's kind of where Andrea and I can come in and help and deal with this Part of our rescue plan, is that?

Speaker 3: 53:27

So it's not just the recordings and the training outline that we do, but we also do free Q&As. All you got to do is sign up. We show up. You can send us your question in advance. Give it to us on the fly. We're going to help you with the challenging problems. Walk us through it. What are you dealing with? How can we help you? And we offer that to anybody who signs up with our program like free of charge, like you get our time for an hour and a half to ask your questions.

Speaker 1: 53:56

That's an amazing resource.

Speaker 2: 53:57

yes, and I think it's hard for the rescues because they see the dog usually before it comes to the home and they're sometimes in whether it's a kennel situation or a veterinary situation or outdoor holding space for dogs. And I do feel bad for some rescues because they give an idea of the dog's personality and they show videos and dogs like, yay, life is awesome. And then it comes here and it's had all that trauma from being put in a crate and a plane and put it on a truck and then it's winter and what the heck is this white stuff? And some people get upset with the rescue saying this isn't what you said. Well, there's been a lot of stuff that the dog has gone through before getting to you and we can't guesstimate the resilience of the dog.

Speaker 1: 54:46

Right, so the rescues are in a hard place.

Speaker 2: 54:49

I feel for them a lot.

Speaker 1: 54:52

Yeah, we have to remember we're not buying a used car. We know the wear on the tires and what else we change.

Speaker 3: 54:59

Look, no, I bought my fair share of used cars. Trust me, that doesn't always go very well either. But yeah, but it's true. It's like we can't just crack open the hood and look underneath and see what's there. This is a living, breathing entity that's had experiences, good or bad, and we don't know how they're going to do in those environments.

Speaker 1: 55:21

Yes, yes, so it's understanding for all. It's a great way to kind of wrap up this topic, but I do want to point people to where they can learn more about the rescue plan and anything else you guys are up to.

Speaker 2: 55:35

Oh well.

Speaker 2: 55:41

Oh so we, carl and I, obviously follow you, we follow Kim, we follow Laura, and we never get some speakers up here. So, and unfortunately I don't know if we can travel in the next little while. But we thought, well, why don't we ask Mike Kimbroughy and Laura Donaldson if they'll come to Toronto and speak to us about city dogs, which which does tie into rescues as well, and how dogs in general, whether they're rescues or not, are just really having a hard time with the density and the busyness of the city, and how we can help them. So, yes, we have the dogs in the city conference coming up September 22nd, 23rd, 24th, which is so exciting. Live, I actually see you in person.

Speaker 3: 56:29

I know we're so excited.

Speaker 1: 56:31

I'm so looking forward to it.

Speaker 3: 56:33

And then obviously, you can also go to educationorg. That is our website. Our rescue plan is available there. Andree and I are also working on a new program that we're going to be coming out with soon. That is specifically about condo dogs and kind of how to go through. Condo canine is going to be the next program that we come out with, which is going to be hot on the heels, and obviously it's going to highlight some of the things that we're going to be talking about in the conference and some of the things that we talked about today. You know, all those kind of fun house jump scare things that dogs have to deal with, and kind of best practices and how to get them through it. So, yeah, and Andrew and I are both also trainers, we're private trainers and you can reach out through us, through education, to get in contact with us as well, if anyone lives in the Toronto or GTA area that is looking for training, and Andrew also does classes, yes.

Speaker 2: 57:32

So yeah, lots of different classes. I like the fun, sporty classes and also deal with the crazy teenagers. We do a losing it on the leash, which is specifically for leash frustration, so we have a lot of adolescent dogs and that one as well. What?

Speaker 1: 57:48

do you mean? I can't say hi.

Speaker 2: 57:52

But we're all here.

Speaker 1: 57:56

Well, wonderful as usual, guys. I'm going to link to all that in the show notes, and so check those out on your favorite podcast player wherever you're listening in. They all those links will be in the show notes. Andrea and Carla, thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed talking to you guys and I hope to see you soon, but we'll definitely see each other later this year.

Speaker 3: 58:15

Absolutely Awesome. Thank you, thank you so? Much, mike. Yeah, we thoroughly enjoyed it and we were so excited when we got invited on. So thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 58:27

I'm so happy to have had this dynamic duo and Andrea and Carla on this episode. They're doing such amazing work for rescue dogs and beyond and I look forward to seeing their continued journey and all the wonderful information they're putting out there. And don't forget to head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression, from the aggression and dogs master course to webinars from world renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. We also have the help for dogs with aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog to dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening in and stay well. My friends, what in the all things on two feet that are on steroids?