The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Ouch! That Explains the Bite - With Dr. Hagar Hauser
Dr. Hauser pulls back the curtain on one of the most overlooked factors in pet behavior problems—physical pain. This eye-opening conversation reveals how arthritis affects not just senior pets but surprisingly young animals too, with research showing 40% of dogs between 8 months and 4 years have joint issues that often go completely undiagnosed.
The discussion challenges common misconceptions about how animals display pain. That dog who still enthusiastically plays fetch? The adrenaline is temporarily masking their discomfort. The cat who no longer jumps to their favorite windowsill? They're making a subtle accommodation for painful joints. These insights explain those baffling moments when a pet seems to invite attention then suddenly snaps—revealing the complex relationship between pain anticipation and aggression.
Dr. Hauser shares practical diagnostic approaches from medication trials to environmental modifications that can dramatically improve quality of life. Her examples of dogs whose "stubborn" refusal to sit actually indicates hip pain, and cats whose litterbox issues stem from discomfort, showcase how behavior changes often represent an animal's attempt to communicate physical distress. Particularly valuable is her guidance on harness selection, petting consent tests, and creating low-stress home environments that respect an animal's physical limitations.
You'll gain a powerful new perspective on interpreting pet behavior, recognizing that what we often label as "problem behaviors" may actually be desperate attempts to avoid or express pain. Whether you're a trainer, veterinarian, or devoted pet parent, this conversation will transform how you approach behavioral challenges—looking first at potential physical causes before assuming psychological ones.
About Dr. Hauser:
https://metro-vet.com/staff-item/hagar-hauser-2/
- Canine Arthritis Management: https://caninearthritis.co.uk/
- Zoetis Canine OA: https://www.zoetisus.com/conditions/petcare/oa-pain/canine-oa-pain
- Zoetis Feline OA: https://www.zoetisus.com/conditions/petcare/oa-pain/feline-oa-pain
- International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management: https://www.ivapm.org/
- Zero Pain Philosophy (for veterinarians only currently): https://www.zeropainphilosophy.com/
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
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In this episode I sit down with veterinary behaviorist Dr Hauser to unpack the hidden links between pain, behavior and aggression in dogs and cats. We dig into why musculoskeletal pain is so often missed, especially in cats, how adrenaline can mask discomfort during play and why the anticipation of pain can spark seemingly out of theblue bites Along the way. We look at home-based rehab strategies, simple body language tests like petting, consent checks and the value of video documentation when you suspect a pet is hurting. We also tackle compulsive behaviors, the double-edge effect of certain medications and why true welfare hinges on collaboration among owners, trainers and veterinarians. Dr Hauser earned her BS in animal sciences at the University of Maryland and graduated cum laude from the University of Florida College of Veterinary Medicine, before completing a rotating internship at Friendship Hospital for Animals and a behavior residency at the University of Pennsylvania. Now a diplomat of the College of American Veterinary Behaviorists and Fear Free Elite certified, she treats complex cases ranging from interdog aggression to noise phobias, and she speaks at national conferences and publishes in peer-reviewed journals. Passionate about shelter, outreach, low stress handling and lifelong learning, dr Hauser credits her heart dog, ronnie, for inspiring her mission to ease the path for pets in pain and people who love them.
Speaker 1:And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head on over to AggressiveDogcom, because we've got something for everyone. For pet pros, there's the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available on aggression, packed with expert insights and CEUs For dog guardians. Check out Real Life Solutions, a practical course for everyday challenges like leash reactivity and dog-to-dog aggression. And if you want full access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access membership is just $29 a month. You'll also find info on the 2025 Aggression and Dogs Conference happening in Charlotte this September. That can all be found at aggressivedogcom.
Speaker 1:Check it out after the show. Check it out after the show. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week I have another veterinary behaviorist. We've had a few on the show and I always love chatting with them about all of the things we should be learning about the medical side and the meds and all the things that they can help us learn. So welcome to the show, dr Hagar Hauser.
Speaker 2:Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:It's great to have you here and your focus. Actually, I should give the listeners a little background about how I met you, but we were at the Clinical Animal Behavior Conference, both speaking there, and I saw your talk about pain in dogs and cats and I just thought it was fantastic because one of the things we were just talking about before the show started is that the under-diagnosis of pain and behavior issues right. So let's first kind of talk about what are some of the common pain issues. You see, and we can talk about dogs and cats we got to give our cats some love on the show. So what are the most common things that are contributing to behavior issues in your practice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, things that are contributing to behavior issues in your practice. Yeah, so I would say that I see pain in my patients almost on a daily basis, if not multiple times a week, whether they come to me with a history of pain or I'm the one who's suspicious of it or diagnosing it. The three most common ones would be musculoskeletal pain, so most often arthritis, but also cruciate disease, hip dysplasia, patellar luxations, and this is even in young dogs. I have a few patients that were diagnosed with hip dysplasia before they turned one year old. The second most common cause of pain, I would say, is gastrointestinal disease. So you think about inflammatory bowel disease is a common one. I have some with EPI, or exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, and that is one that's a little bit of the chicken or the egg.
Speaker 2:When a dog is having especially diarrhea, is it stress-related? Is it the underlying disease? Is it both? Sometimes they have these chronic conditions that are well controlled by, let's say, a primary care doctor or an internist, but then when stressors happen, they still have vomiting diarrhea. So I see them and I'm treating the stress causing those flares.
Speaker 2:And the last most common one, I would say, is the dermatologic issues. So our patients with allergies, a lot of them. It also is a little bit of the chicken or the egg where, especially when you think about one of the displacement behaviors dogs and cats have is self-grooming, so they'll lick themselves because they're stressed, and then they're causing infections and more pruritus and then they have to treat the flare, but then they're also itchy because they have underlying allergies and it's this vicious cycle and I have patients where their behavior is really well controlled but then when they have an allergy flare, they have a regression in their behavior. So, very strongly connected and there's actually a paper that came out in 2022 that showed that pruritic or atopic dogs displayed more aggression towards multiple different triggers, and I see the same thing in my patients.
Speaker 2:Outside of those more medical reasons, I've also seen pain due to procedures being done by veterinarians that they have to do. So let's say, they're trying to do an examination of their ear, but they have an ear infection and it's very painful. That will cause aggression and then also some pain due to aversive tools that have been used before. So you know, when the pet parents try to touch around their head and they have a history of prong collar use, I've seen them develop an aversion and develop into aggression. But from the medical side of things, I'd say the musculoskeletal, gastrointestinal and dermatologic are the most common.
Speaker 1:Would you see the same in cats as well? Are they a whole different category? Because I'm the first one that will admit I don't know much about cats. I have a cat and we have a peaceful coexistence, but I don't know much about the medical side of cats. So tell us more about you know maybe some of the top issues with cats as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love cats I have two of my own as well and I feel like, from both a behavior standpoint but also just purely medical, they are also underdiagnosed. They're not seen enough by veterinarians and that's because it's very stressful to bring your cat to the vet and so to then bring them to a veterinary, behaviorist or a specialist is asking a lot of them. But when I do see cats, yes, I would say it's actually the same things. Musculoskeletal disease and I will say osteoarthritis is also very underdiagnosed in both dogs and cats. So in cats there's some pretty good research to show that cats over the age of six, at least 60% had arthritis in one joint, 50% in more than one joint, and then once they're over 14, it can be over 80% have arthritis. And then there were some that showed that even young cats up to 20% of them can have arthritis. The same is true for our dogs. I will say there was a paper that showed that dogs between eight months and four years of age, 40% had arthritis in at least one joint. And usually what happens is that arthritis is not diagnosed till they're older because we're not looking for it in our younger patients. But osteoarthritis is not a disease of older pets. So that's my soapbox on arthritis. But for cats they absolutely can have it.
Speaker 2:They're very subtle on how they show that. So it's the cat who used to jump from the floor to the counter or the windowsill and now they have to jump to a chair before they go to the windowsill. So these really subtle changes. Or instead of just jumping right up, you can see them thinking through it and hesitating before they make that jump up. Or I had a client that said my cat used to spend all the time on the top of their cat tree or in the top of a closet. They don't do that anymore. So yeah, that's because it's uncomfortable for them to get up there. So very subtle. And then, of course, with litter box issues, which is a whole other story. But also, yeah, gi disease, allergies in cats as well. We can see that manifest as aggression with body handling.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I just want to back up to. You mentioned tools or activities that you commonly see. So backing up to dogs again, do you find certain activities? So we can get to tools in a second but certain activities you know, obviously dog sports we have to be mindful of. And do you find, with the dog guardian side of things, maybe somebody that's not doing dog sports all the time? But you see common issues depending on their environment or activities they're doing where it's like you know, for instance, like just vigorous fetch back and forth with no you know rhyme or reason to it. What's the some of the more common issues you see with activities that dog guardians should be mindful of?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the way that I diagnose pain and I'm starting to see signs that are unusual for the dog is usually more subtle. So I will say a lot of my clients say, well, my dog still plays fetch, my dog still runs in the backyard, so they can't be in pain. And I say, well, in those situations adrenaline is kicking in, it's masking their pain. So that's not really a fair way to assess it.
Speaker 2:I actually had a really interesting case of a one and a half year old dog who used to pretty incessantly ask to go outside and play. Over and over he was diagnosed with lumbosacral stenosis. They treated his pain and he stopped doing that and the theory was, was that dog asking to go out and get that? Basically adrenaline rush, endorphin release to mask his pain or make him feel better, and then he didn't need it anymore? It was really, really fascinating.
Speaker 2:So usually what I'm doing is I'm actually telling clients to look for subtle changes. So it's when they get up in the morning. Are they stretching a little bit longer? Are they a little stiff before they get back into their regular gait? When they're using the stairs or getting on and off of furniture, are they a little bit slower or more hesitant, similar to our cats On walks, are they slowing down, not wanting to walk as far? So it's usually things that people are seeing at home very subtly when they're relaxed and calm and not having that rush of adrenaline. Same thing when you think about a veterinary exam is the dog is usually stressed and we're trying to manipulate them and they're not reacting, not because they're not painful sometimes, but because they have the adrenaline masking it or because they're so stressed they don't want to react or show kind of any vulnerability that they freeze in that moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I just turned 50, so I can relate to mornings. I'm getting up very slowly, more slowly than I used to, and then, of course, when you get to the gym and you warm up, you feel much better. You feel looser, you're getting able to jump and do things that you wouldn't do first thing in the morning.
Speaker 2:So definitely can relate to that.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about some of the equipment people might use, like front clip harnesses or head halters and things like that. Have you seen much research on that aspect? So I was talking to Debbie Gross-Taraka, who's a rehab specialist in Connecticut really world-class. She took care of our dog when she had her ACL surgery and one of the things she saw was common issues with dogs coming on head halters, with the ones that sort of continue to pull and they're just pulling and their head is kind of off to the side as they're pulling. So have you seen those or some common issues or even some research on the different types of tools front clip harnesses, types of harnesses, those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm often talking with my clients about the type of tools that they're using when they come into the room. I'll ask them is this what you're usually using at home on a typical walk? And if I have a dog with a known history of any spinal disease, especially because it's putting a lot of pressure on the spine, I will talk about the use of something like head halters, even collars. Clipping a leash to a collar of any type, you're putting a lot of pressure on the neck, which is part of the spine, and that can cause more issues. The research on harnesses so far has been about the way that it sits on the chest. So a lot of front clip harnesses, the way that they used to be made was there was a strap across the chest and so what happens is that harness will sit on those shoulder joints and it affects movement.
Speaker 2:So I am a huge proponent of front clip harnesses, but I explained to clients that there's very specific ones that we recommend, which is I call them Y-shaped harnesses. So it's a strap kind of around the neck, one strap down the chest, so the dog has normal mobility with their shoulders but we still have the effect of being able to get control of the front half of the dog if they were to pull, and even with that there are some harnesses that will slide and the dog keeps moving forward. So it's really a well-fitted one and made to reduce the pulling. But that, I find, is the best, because then we're at least dispersing pressure throughout the dog's body instead of putting all the pressure around their face, around their neck, where we can cause a lot more injury.
Speaker 2:I had a dog who I tried a head halter with him and instead of lunging forward he would just throw his body towards the trigger. So I feel like it was even more harmful to him in that way. So, depending on every dog, there's different cases. I have some that the client only feels safe walking their pet with a head halter and the dog is desensitized to it. But I do really encourage the use of equipment that disperses pressure, just so we're not putting too much pressure on one point, on the dog.
Speaker 1:Do you want to give a shout out to any particular brands of harnesses?
Speaker 2:So I'd say the three most common ones I recommend to clients are the Blue 9 Balance Harness, the PetSafe 3-in-1 Harness, the Freedom Harness can fit well for some dogs, but some dogs I see it sitting on their shoulders, so that more so depends on their conformation. But they have the velvet on the bottom which for some of the shorter haired dogs that's been a benefit for them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those are the top three on my list too, so we're in agreement there so in a perfect world, I'm assuming the best option is a dog really well trained to loose leash, walk on a rear clip, harness in terms of structure and joints and mobility and things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, If you have a dog where you're not worried about pulling, you're not worrying about reactivity, a back clip harness is a great option. It's just I'm a little biased in that I don't see dogs that are calm on walks and aren't pulling and stressed by something.
Speaker 1:But yes, absolutely A well-fitting back clip.
Speaker 2:Harness is a great option too. Yeah, I'm in agreement with you there as well.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately we don't see as many dogs that are going to be okay on a rear clip harness, especially for the client side of things, the human side. They have a tough time already managing their dogs. So that's a you know what's going to work best for them for sure. Yes, so let's get into, you know. So we have a dog that's in pain, our cat that's in pain, and obviously the common triggers are somebody reaching out, trying to pet the animal or, as you mentioned, somebody reaching down towards a collar or anything like that. We see often pronounced or overt aggressive responses, because it's often if a dog or animal or human is in pain, I feel like it's more explosive response in some cases. May not always be, but what are some of the common triggers, you know, besides just reaching out and petting? So like walking by a dog bed, for instance, or calling a dog off of bed when they don't want to get off there, those kind of little more subtle cases.
Speaker 2:Yep, those are some good examples. So we always think it's going to be touching the dog themselves that triggers pain and that's why they react. But it's even the anticipation of pain in how we might interact with them that could trigger aggression. So exactly if they're resting and we walk by them or we're trying to get them off, they think it might hurt getting up. So I'm just going to go ahead and tell them I don't want to move. Sometimes it's putting equipment on the dog.
Speaker 2:I had a dog who unfortunately was diagnosed with lymphoma in his spine and anytime they try to put a harness on, he would snap at them because it was painful when they tried to do that, and it can go back to not even putting it on but picking it up and then they say, oh, I know what comes next. So then they'll react to even seeing their pet parent interact with something like that. I also find that child interactions tend to trigger it a little faster than adults, because children are unpredictable and they run and they yell and I have a toddler and I can totally relate that it's very alarming and startling. Absolutely. We can see that quicker escalation for a dog that might usually growl bare their teeth. Now they're going from laying down to lunging, snapping and biting and to me that is an indication to look for pain. If I have a dog who has no history of doing that before and suddenly they're lunging to bite, I wonder if there's something going on physically with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how about the cat side of things? Is it similar in terms of the triggers?
Speaker 2:With cats I would say a lot of it is body handling for them. I guess we don't have to do as much manipulation when it comes to them, unless you are the awesome pet parent who has harness trained their cat and has taken them out on walks and doing more exposure. And cats generally are good at separating themselves. So if they don't want to be bothered while they're resting, for example, they are good at kind of putting themselves in a place where it's easier not to do that. They like to go up high. So if they're not physically limited to do that, they can help separate themselves.
Speaker 2:Versus some of our dogs they don't want to be touched but they want to be near us and then it can be harder for them to regulate that decision of should I lay near my person and potentially it'll hurt, or do I go and completely separate myself and this is a generalization. I have dogs that do separate themselves and I'm always happy for them to do that if they're in pain. But I think that with cats they're better at moving themselves away and usually it's the human that's not picking up on it and interacting with the cat more than they might want to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So talk about that kind of dog you were mentioning, and this I've seen quite a few times over the years. Do you hear the comment? Oh, he wanted to be pet. He came over to me, sat on my lap and I was petting him and then after about 30 seconds that's when he turned around and snapped at me. I don't get it. Like he was, he wanted to be pet, right, and so we have to explain sort of the reasons for it. But what do you? Do you see that commonly and what is the typical response you give to clients with that?
Speaker 2:Yes, I see that a lot Part of it is body language. So a dog approaching is not a solicitation for being touched in and of itself. I see the same thing for sniffing A dog. Sniffing somebody is not asking them to pet them, it is a they're just trying to get some information about who they are. I want the nudge, the lean in, I want loose body language, so I think that's part of it.
Speaker 2:But also sometimes a dog really may want to be pet and they're coming and they're loose and they're wiggly, and then the person starts to pet them and then after a few seconds there's the snap bite and it's very confusing and I think the best way to describe these dogs is conflicted of I do want you to touch me, but also I'm scared that it might hurt or oh, that did hurt.
Speaker 2:You touched my ear and I have an ear infection and so sometimes they have trouble regulating that way. That's where, if I have a dog, definitely with a known history of biting in that situation or pain around their head, I do a lot of the petting consent test to say, pet them where they're most comfortable, usually under the chin or on the chest, for a few seconds, pause and see if they want more. If they do not, if they stop they look away, they walk away, we're done. But if they're nudging you again, then you can continue kind of that pet-pet pause with them. But always err on the side of caution. So if you know that that has been a trigger for them and it's not predictable to you, don't push it. Learn from previous interactions with them. But that can be hard when they look like they want to be touched.
Speaker 2:But, when you go to touch them, they actually say, never mind. That was a mistake.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's unfortunate because when we dig into it it's very clear why the dog or cat might respond like that. But you often hear those comments he's like Jekyll and Hyde or it just seems so off. It's strange. But I use the analogy sort of like a deep tissue massage or somebody scratching your back for you like you get an itch or you you have like a sore muscle, and the person starts doing it. You're like, oh yeah, that feels good. And then after, if they keep doing it and digging and digging or scratching, eventually you can like, ah, oh, no, stop that. And then you, if they're not listening, you know, because dogs are going to tell us with their body language and maybe somebody's missing that next thing, you know, they're like that's really painful. So I think a lot of clients grasp that analogy because they kind of think of it themselves.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. That's why I like the kind of the petting consent or the pet-pet. Pause and watch your dog's body language, make sure they're really enjoying it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you mentioned behavior and body language as ways of us, the humans, and our dog's life's, telling whether it's the trainer, the veterinarian, or the clients or the guardian. So what do you suggest? Let's say it's a trainer taking on the case, and what kind of data would be helpful for a veterinarian or veterinary behaviorist? So we suspect there's pain or something going on. But it's the subtleties, right? It's not talking about dogs that are limping or yelping, you know, because that's what people think.
Speaker 1:When dogs or cats are in pain, we think, oh, these overt signals, but it's really often very subtle and sometimes even a professional is going to miss it unless we're looking at behavior patterns, changes in behavior, certainly when aggression starts to surface, when it hasn't been there for years, or something like that. So for you or other veterinarians, what's going to be most helpful for the trainer or guardian to tell you when it comes to either body language, which most of the time the guardians aren't going to recognize, those subtle signals but or the behavior? What's best for us to you know, give you information to help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I appreciate so much whenever I have a trainer that notices something like that and they tell the client to tell the primary care vet or to tell me, because they also get to interact with that dog in such a different situation than I do. And usually if I have a dog, let's say, who has fear-related aggression towards unfamiliar people, they don't warm up to me within an appointment but the trainer who comes and brings the hot dogs every week gets to really see that dog in a more relaxed state. So one thing that's actually pretty subtle but easy to document is the dog's resisting performing certain cues. When you see that they will do other ones pretty easily. When you see that they will do other ones pretty easily For example, sit I have clients that say, oh, my dog won't sit, he's very stubborn, and it turns out that dog has hip dysplasia or cruciate disease and it's painful for them to do that and that dog usually starts offering other behaviors to say I don't want to do that, but I can do this. What about this Down? Pretty similarly, it might be uncomfortable for them. I also will sometimes notice even in my exam room I have some hardwood floor and then we have some matting and some dogs will take themselves off the hardwood floor and go to the matting to perform certain behaviors like sit, because they don't want to do it on a slippery hard surface. If a trainer is noticing like they won't do it on this hard surface but they'll do something on a soft surface, that could be a subtle indication. They also might see that when they're asking a dog to do certain behaviors, that requires them to move their body. We see some lip licking, some yawning, some more fidget or displacement behaviors that they're uncomfortable with it.
Speaker 2:But the other big thing is mobility. So, watching the dog go from a sit to a stand or a stand to a sit, to a lie down, what are they doing with their back legs? Are they sticking them straight out? Are they having a nice square sit? When they are walking them let's say they're doing training on walks does the dog seem to be stiff or, like we said, limping? Not as hard to see, but sometimes when you're the one walking your dog, you can't see what's going on with the back legs the way that somebody else might.
Speaker 2:And getting videos. It's just priceless, like it's a free tool. Record as many videos from the side, from the back from the front, and then you can share these with the veterinarian, the primary care veterinarian, the veterinary behaviorist, and everybody can share these with the veterinarian, the primary care veterinarian, the veterinary behaviorist, and everybody can share that information. This is something that I tell clients to do is get some videos of your dog moving around at home and send them to me, because that is the easiest way for me to see those subtle changes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that takes a trained eye. You know it's because I got into the hustle thing with the human movements and you know, from again me getting older, we just wanted to get more mobile and was getting more aware of, you know, things that I could do to help myself be more mobile, but also things that could be damaging, and so I started to recognize it. Once you start seeing something, you can't unsee it. So I started watching people and the way they walk and you can see imbalances and issues and their postures off. So I know veterinary behaviors and folks working in dog sports medicine especially. They have the eye for watching just the video. The dog walking side to side on the screen and then also front to back directionally is really helpful. So, yeah, it's fascinating to see that. I think it's really cool when somebody can pick up on.
Speaker 1:I see a little subtle issue with the gate there or something. And was it you and I? I can't remember if you and I were talking about it. It was the for cats. There's some there's. They're using AI to help assess the movement of the cats and it's saying, and it's getting pretty good about saying, okay, this cat is walking and there's so much weight on this side, and I know they were looking at it for dogs as well. Was it you and I talking about that, or have you heard about that?
Speaker 2:I have heard about it, but I actually I have one of my cats I think has an abnormal gait, so I've started submitting his videos to the AI reader. So I've heard of it, but I'm not sure if they have any data yet on the results.
Speaker 1:It's exciting I've been actually talking a lot about that this season is AI and technology and how we're going to be able to use it, as in both behavior work and, of course, what you're doing with assessing for health issues. So we'll see. You know, we'll hold our breath patiently and be also a little bit worried at the same time, but I think it's going to be super helpful. I was talking to Sharag Patel about, like, the monitors for your heart rate variability and you know same thing. We could start looking at that for dogs and saying when they're having a stress day and all those things to help us understand their. You know how they slept, how they're doing, how you're feeling today, right, especially with this, this topic right, with pain, and you know, think about a dog that's been super stressed because they have been in pain all day. A lot of those biological markers will tell tough day. So today we should take it easy. Maybe you shouldn't take the dog to the dog park today, right? Those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:So let's slide into talking about treatments, right? So how can we help these dogs and cats? So, obviously you've got pain meds and things like that, but let's talk through that and then, what are common things and then we can talk about maybe the physical rehab side of things and then we can talk about what we can do at home as trainers and behavior consultants and guardians. So you want to start with the med side, like, what are common things? Maybe even talk us through the pain med trials for someone. We're just trying to see if it's, if the dog is in pain.
Speaker 1:we do the pain trial, so have at it.
Speaker 2:So for ruling out pain, sometimes all we have are pain medication trials. I will often recommend you know you could see an orthopedic surgeon, you could see a rehab specialist. For various reasons I do get resistance from clients, whether the dog has significant fear, regression in those situations, whether it's cost, whether they've gotten to the point where they say, if you can't fix this, I'm not ready, I'm not willing to do anything else. So the most cost effective and a quick way to rule out pain is a pain medication trial, and there's different ways you can go about it. So the way I like to think about it is you have your NSAIDs, your non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. So in dogs you might think about something like carprofin. In cats there's Onsior and these treat acute inflammation. So most of the time you think about it. If the dog kind of runs and they tweak something and they just need to reduce acute inflammation, that's when it comes out. But it can also be used in a pain med trial. The other kind of pain that I see more frequently is what I call chronic low-grade neuropathic pain. So it's kind of that low-grade simmering pain that there isn't an acute damage to the leg, to a joint, but it's more so like osteoarthritis, where you can feel it on a day-to-day, and that one is a lot more subtle and harder for pet parents to point at because it develops more gradually. So you can do an NSAID trial where they get it every single day. Sometimes we'll do it for a month to really give time for it to have its full effect and for the clients to have enough time to really observe whether it changes their dog's mobility or their behavior or both. I tell my clients to kind of look out for any changes, because sometimes they don't think that their mobility is any different but then after they're on the medication they say, oh, my dog's more playful. I didn't realize that that was something that they were struggling with and then for more of that neuropathic pain.
Speaker 2:So if I have a dog with we know or highly suspect osteoarthritis, I'm usually talking about something like gabapentin or pregabalin or amantadine, where we're trying to target that pathway and sometimes we'll do a combination of the two. I talk to the client. I say, listen, if you want to do both, if you want to kind of throw everything out there, we can. If you want to be a little more scientific about it, to say I want to know which one will help my dog. You can also start with one at a time.
Speaker 2:Something nice about gabapentin and pregabalin is that while they treat neuropathic pain, they also do treat anxiety. So if you have a client that's like I just want to hit both of those with one medication. That can be a really nice option from that standpoint, and then you might go down depending on the severity. There are things like injections that they can receive. So for osteoarthritis there is labrella for dogs, helencia for cats. Some of patients that have more severe pain will go to neurologists to have more injections done with things like ketamine and that kind of thing. But I think from starting point, going for those oral medications is a good, easy way to get clients to buy in, to say, all right, let's rule out pain first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, any side effects that we should be aware of in terms of, especially when it comes to behavior, so potential for increased aggression with any of these meds or considerations to look for or be aware?
Speaker 2:of. That's a good question. So for non-steroidal anti-inflammatories I'm not worried about behavior side effects, more so GI side effects. I have to look at the kidney functions, liver functions For gabapentin and pregabalin I mentioned. They also do reduce anxiety and any medication that affects behavior has the potential side effect of increased anxiety. I tell my clients, no matter what I prescribe, that is a potential side effect. Not very common with gabapentin and pregabalin, though, and then with Librella and Selencia. From what I have heard, behavior side effects are not expected with those. So generally from a behavior side effect profile, there are safe options.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good, I was talking to I think it was Dr Pachel a few years back and we were talking about Apoquel and one of the very small side effects or lesser known side effects to Apoquel. So we're talking about skin issues, you know, and Apoquel can be used to treat some of those skin issues and the potential for increased aggression in some rare cases. That was a few years ago, so any updates on that or what you guys are seeing?
Speaker 2:That's still true. It's not common but it's definitely observed and I've had cases where the dog is started on Apoquil, aggression develops, the medication is stopped and the aggression stops, so it can be a very clear presentation of it. You can also see it with proin that's used to treat urinary incontinence. You can see it with some anti-seizure medications like phenobarbital and prednisone, so the steroid that is used to treat many things. That can also be seen with that. So unfortunately there are some other behavior medications but from the pain medication standpoint we are generally not concerned with that.
Speaker 1:We're pretty good, good, good, good. So we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and we're going to come back and chat about some of the physical rehab stuff we could do and other things we could do at home to help our animals that might be experiencing pain. So we're going to be right back. Hi, friends, it's me again and I hope you are enjoying this episode. Don't miss the sixth annual Aggression and Dogs Conference, happening from September 26th through the 28th 2025 in Charlotte, north Carolina, with both in-person and live stream options available. Whether you're a seasoned behavior professional or just diving into this work, this is the premier event for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of dog aggression. This year's speaker lineup is packed with world-renowned experts, including Suzanne Clothier, kim Brophy, trish McMillan, chirag Patel, sarah Fisher, leslie McDevitt and so many more. Topics span from cutting-edge research and behavior and welfare to hands-on strategies for working with aggression in shelters, veterinary clinics and client homes. Join us for a weekend of powerful learning, community and connection, including what will be a legendary cocktail party hosted by Chirag Patel and yours truly, that will be streamed live for our virtual attendees as well. Spots fill fast every year, so head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to reserve your spot and check out the full agenda. Whether you're going to attend in person or from home, you'll be part of a kind, welcoming and supportive global community committed to helping dogs and their people. You can also get your conference swag, as we are happy to be collaborating with Wolf Culture again this year. Check out the show notes for a link to get your favorite t-shirts, hats, hoodies and more. Just for listeners of the podcast, wolf Culture is offering 15% off your order. Use the discount code BITEY at checkout. That's B-I-T-E-Y, like in the bitey end of the dog. I also want to take a moment to thank one of our wonderful sponsors this year Pets for Vets. What if there was a way to help both shelter animals and veterans struggling with emotional trauma by engineering a powerful, near instantaneous bond between them? That's exactly what Pets for Vets, a nonprofit focused on positive reinforcement for animals and veterans, is designed to do. Pets for Vets' unique program model creates a super bond. Designed to do. Pets for Vets' unique program model creates a super bond a carefully crafted, professionally trained version of love at first sight that leads to a lasting connection between a veteran and a shelter animal. Because each animal is evaluated and selected to match the veteran's specific personality, lifestyle and emotional needs. The result is a reciprocal healing relationship. The organization, founded by Clarissa Black, is actively expanding its network of positive reinforcement trainers nationwide. It offers an incredibly rewarding opportunity for trainers who receive stipends, grow professionally, enjoy flexible schedules and can live anywhere in the United States. Pets for Vets is also seeking new partnerships with animal shelters and rescue organizations across the US. To learn more or get involved, visit petsforvetscom.
Speaker 1:All right, we are back here with Hagar Hauser and we've been talking about pain in both dogs and cats. We talked about meds right before the break, different types of meds that might be used. Now what else can we do at home? So we have sometimes limited access to canine rehab facilities where they're helping with lots of you know. Some places are world-class, but unfortunately those are far and few between. So what do you usually recommend for your patients and even, maybe even the trainers that are listening in, that they incorporate at home? Is it environmental changes? Is it just be careful with this, or do this activity instead? What do you go to with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love working with rehab specialists because I find that they can also diagnose pain a lot more accurately in the setting that they have where depending on the location. But they can make it more low stress. There's treats involved, there's a lot of motivation and encouragement. They have a lot of tools at their disposal. They can do acupuncture, they can do laser, they can do underwater treadmill. So they have a lot of tools at their disposal. So if a client is willing to go down that route, I think that's an excellent option.
Speaker 2:It's not always possible. I mentioned I have some dogs that cannot be touched by unfamiliar people, so rehab would be very stressful for them. So some things they can do at home there are some passive range of motion or even active range of motion exercises they can do at home if their pet parent will also let them do some body handling. That can at least be prescribed by a rehab veterinarian. And then there are adjustments that clients can make within their home to make it more friendly. Let's say, if the dog does have diagnosed arthritis or mobility issues, things like putting out mats throughout the house so that they're not walking on slippery floors, adding kind of a landing pad if the dog is jumping on and off of furniture so they're not hitting hard floor. Actually, for my dog I found I put down a yoga mat next to our bed because when he landed, the traction prevents the slipping out from under him and then steps.
Speaker 2:So if you have slippery steps, adding some padding to those can make a big difference as well. And considering even the day-to-day like is there food on the floor and is it hard for them to bend down to eat that? Can we elevate that? During training, the trainers can recommend things like instead of tossing treats on the ground, can you offer treats from a level that's more comfortable for the dog to reach and telling them you know, I don't really need your dog to sit and lay down. Let's see what else we can replace it with. So can we ask your dog to touch before they eat or to look at you before they eat, instead of always having to sit down? So modifying the plan depending on the dog's capabilities.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think whoever invented laminate floors was not thinking of dogs at all, because that's everything you mentioned I keep going back to like that slippery laminate floor and that's in most modern homes these days and it's just terrible for dogs A lot of times. They're slipping and sliding and it's something you don't think about. But imagine if us, as humans, we just had an ice rink for like our house and we had like you can imagine how that's going to impact your joints and you know how you feel like you're just tense all the time, slipping and it's just adjusting for that kind of surface absolutely yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So we talked about some environmental changes there, some things that trainers can do. Anything else that you think when it comes to the aggression side again? So we're focusing on the aggression and avoiding that. What is the most common or helpful things you found for your pet guardians to say, okay, whether it's dogs or cats. To say do this, or you know, or avoid this, or be careful with this. That's going to keep them safe, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So considering what triggers that dog or that cat, we talked about, for example, petting them, so that petting consent test can be really helpful. Don't go up and touch a dog or a cat who's resting comfortably. Call them over to you, ask if they want to be interacted with. For that dog and cat who tends to still lay down right in the middle of foot traffic where you have to pass them. But if you pass them while they're resting then they get triggered.
Speaker 2:We talk about moving that bed out of foot traffic, putting it in a corner or creating a safe place for them to say if you don't want to be touched, go into your crate, go into this bedroom, go into this spot so that they can have a place that they know nobody will bother them. And we'll also usually put that on cue to say, like, go to your place. So if you need to walk past them, you're telling them to move. They're making that decision versus you pushing them to the side or pulling them. Like what you said, if you're approaching an animal on furniture, if they're uncomfortable, if they're painful, then they might react negatively to that.
Speaker 2:With dogs and cats, my cats know the touch cue.
Speaker 2:You can say touch and call them off of furniture instead of physically moving them from there If it seems that they get startled and then that startle turns into guarding their body and displaying aggression.
Speaker 2:I always encourage that people talk to the animals before they come and touch them to say hey, fluffy, do you want to say hi, do you want to interact? And if they're just kind of given that whale eye, saying this is not the time, okay, I can see that, versus just kind of coming up from behind and touching them. And barriers, barriers, are your best friend with really many aggression cases. So, especially if there's kids in the home using those baby gates attached to the wall, using play pens, where child is in play pen and dog or cat are on the outside of the playpen ways, so that the adult, the parent, doesn't have to constantly be on top of both of them where there is some sort of barrier, because children tend to climb on dogs and pull on them and those are all things that will trigger a dog to show aggression, especially if they have pain, even without pain, but especially with pain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. So let's get into the weeds here a little bit and start getting into some of the complexities of these kinds of cases. So you know, we talked about the chicken or egg stuff. Let's use a case like Apoquel. Right, we have a dog that's got some skin issues and they're showing aggression towards people that try to touch because they're maybe you know, they're uncomfortable in their skin, so to speak. So the dog is put on Apoquel to treat that issue. But then we see the aggression kind of stay about the same even with behavior change strategies employed, right? So somebody's doing counter conditioning at home. They're doing consent-based protocols.
Speaker 1:So you have to like I'm assuming in your line you have to say, all right, is it the Apoquel, or is it the pain? The dog's still uncomfortable, or let's take it a step further. So now we're seeing increased anxiety to things in the environment. So do you start saying, all right, this dog potentially could use behavior meds too, which you also have to monitor. So now we're monitoring several things to say is it pain, is it the Apoquel, is it the new behavior meds? So how do you work through those cases from your side as a clinician, like watching the meds, especially if you have to navigate conversations and data from trainers and guardians.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, this is why I love being a veterinary behaviorist.
Speaker 2:I feel like a detective in these cases where I have to figure out is it this, is it this, is it both? Which? To be honest, in most cases it's a combination of multiple things. We can't pinpoint it to just one, as much as I wish I had cases where it turns out to be a hundred percent pain. I treat the pain and it's over. That's pretty rare, whether it's because they've already now developed negative associations associated with the pain even though the pain is gone, or dogs with anxiety have a lower pain threshold, so they're more sensitive to pain, and vice versa, if a dog is experiencing pain, it lowers their threshold for anxiety, so then now they're more likely to react or be trigger stacked. So I think the dogs that I see and the cats that I see are a little bit more sensitive in both of those situations. And it's also hard because as a veterinary behaviorist, I'm usually not the first person that sees the dog or cat for that issue. So I'm usually getting 100 pages of medical records, I'm getting the trainer notes, I'm getting the client's questionnaire and it's my job to figure out the timeline of everything. What has been tried? How has the dog responded to each of the treatments that have been attempted?
Speaker 2:It gets very complicated and this is why appointments with veterinary behaviorists are long, especially for the initial consult, because there's a lot to kind of pick out. What I find is sometimes dogs and cats are put on medications and the client will say it didn't help or it only helped a little bit and something will be stopped and then another medication will be done. And that will happen over and over to the point where I meet dogs that have been on five behavior meds before they've met me and I asked the client I'm like well, it was a low dose, did you see anything? And they say I don't know. I think it helped and we're trying to kind of figure out was it the dosing was wrong or was it that the prescribing doctor didn't really know what questions to ask the client to know if the medications were helping or if there's a pain component? Let's say they were put on pain meds and behavior meds at the same time. So I will say every case is different and every client is different.
Speaker 2:So I meet clients that sometimes are at the end of the rope and they were like I want you to do everything at the same time and I don't care if I don't know what's helping my dog, because as long as they're better, I'm happy. And then I have the clients that say I want to be as systematic as possible, I want to do one thing at a time. So it depends on the severity of the case. Now, if it's a case where they're considering behavioral euthanasia, we're doing everything, there's no question. But if it's something that they say I'm willing to work through this, I feel sick, this is a safe situation, then we might be more systematic about it.
Speaker 2:A lot of behavior diagnoses really are, after you exclude medical diagnoses, so kind of condition medical diagnoses of exclusion. So if you have a dog or a cat with behavior changes, you should be doing a medical workup on them, no matter what, before they even get to the veterinary behaviorist. But sometimes that's not the case and I'm the first one to say you know, has anybody looked at, done an orthopedic exam? Has your dog had any thorough blood work done? And we have to start with everything at the same time. So I guess the real answer is it really depends on every case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it can get very complicated. But I will say a lot of my clients are open to trying a lot of things because they've reached out to a veterinary behaviorist and willing to go down that route. I am so deep in this case and there are so many things going on. If you have the ability to refer to a veterinary behaviorist, it's totally fair to do it at that point because it gets very complicated.
Speaker 1:I don't know how you guys do it, the time consumption, the time commitment it takes for one case, you know. So, thinking through that, it's sort of like you were saying just like you're a detective on a crime scene, you have a lot to lot to pick through, all the evidence or what's been tried, and a lot of times people have tried a million things with a million people, a million trainers, a million vets, like it's they've tried a lot of times before they get to you. So you're sifting through all this information that could take like hours of time and then you know you're expected. Okay, what about the follow-up? What about the training? What about the behavior change? Do you have a trainer on staff or tech on staff that does behavior? It's like it's a lot. And then some of you guys do university work and teaching and research. I'm like forget it.
Speaker 2:I'm like done I'm like I clocked out just hearing that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, hats off to you guys, because you guys really every behaviors I've met is just really amazing and how they are able to do so much in such little time.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So let's dive a little deeper into some of this geekiness here and think about how dogs or cats experience pain. So one of the common things you hear is you know, dogs or cats especially cats can mask pain really well. They hide it and the theory, I guess and you can correct me if I'm wrong but it's sort of an evolutionary uh aspect to it, like it's better to hide it than to show the world that you are primed for picking and um. But you know there's there's different terms nociception, interoception, in terms of how animals or humans. Well, humans are animals but can experience pain. So what are your thoughts on that? Because one of the debates too we think about observing animals for this topic, we want to know if an animal's in pain so we can help them. But we also get into that conversation around tools and aversives and there's an argument. Okay, some people say how do you really know the dog's experiencing pain or finds it aversive? Because it's really unique to the individual. So thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:I know it's a big, open question, but yeah, so we know that dogs and cats feel pain, similar to how we do, but also, just like with humans, there are different pain thresholds within individuals of every species. So some dogs people will say, oh, this dog is very dramatic in that they vocalize a lot when something painful happens, versus this dog just freezes and is stoic. I don't like the word dramatic, but some dogs are more vocal about things that are painful and others won't show it. It doesn't mean they don't feel the pain. It just means that they might either be shut down enough that they're not going to react to it, or maybe one individual has a higher pain threshold than another. And this goes back to the subtleties of maybe they're lip licking or yawning or looking away or their tail tucks, and that's how we know that they're in pain, versus some might snarl, lunge and bite somebody who's doing something that's painful to them, and sometimes actually it's oh, now my dog doesn't pull on leash because they are on this, let's say, aversive tool. Is that because they've learned that? Or it's because they're trying to avoid pain, and to me that says it probably caused some form of discomfort to them.
Speaker 2:But yeah, the pain pathway in dogs is pretty similar to what we experience. So that idea of nociception is basically getting the sensory information from whether it's heat, cold, pressure, different chemicals that you can feel. The interoception is more of internal sensation. So this is if you're hungry, if you're thirsty, how you're breathing which makes me think about our brachycephalic, short-faced dogs, that what kind of discomfort do they feel from having trouble breathing sometimes? And then you have your exteroception, which is more of external threats and things that you are reacting to to limit injury, so that fight or flight response. But the way that they feel it, there's kind of these four steps to it which I took a little dive into, this kind of going back into my veterinary school studies to look at you know what's the pain pathway, step by step.
Speaker 2:So we think about there's the transduction, which basically means these neurons that feel the discomfort, and then it gets transmitted from the peripheral receptors into the spinal cord, more into the central receptors, and this is where things like opioids and NSAIDs are targeting to block the sensation of pain and then it gets modulated. So this is things like serotonin might affect now how it gets taken up into the brain and talk about the perception. If you're anxious, that'll affect how it's modulated and then it gets into the brain and that's how you perceive pain. So this is affected by so many things. This can be from personal experience, what that dog has experienced in their life before this moment. It can be related to their genetics, to if they have other medical conditions going on at the same time, the social context. So all of that can affect the perception, which is that individual experience. So there's so many points along it that it can get affected before the dog displays signs of pain.
Speaker 1:And I'm thinking along these lines, just my mind's going to pain that we learn to tolerate, versus pain that becomes chronic. So me getting older, getting up out of bed in the morning, that's more of a. It's not something I'm going to build a tolerance to, necessarily, unless I do something about it Versus, you know, when I was younger I did some martial arts and you know you start taking hits or whatever and you get kind of callous to it. You get more used to it, so you develop a tolerance to it. So I'm kind of just thinking out loud here.
Speaker 1:But when it comes to certain tools that we might use, how much that is going to impact things on. You know, in terms of we hear that term punishment callous, right. So somebody using a prong collar, for instance, and the dog starts at first reacts to it. You know they stop pulling for a second but then they start pulling or they get more excited. Think of some of the labs that I used to foster. You know they seem very hardy in terms of you know, like a Cavalier King, charles, spaniel or something. But what are your thoughts on that? Do you find that there's sort of a difference there? Some dogs can learn to tolerate some types of pain, while others can become chronic and less tolerant over time.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting question. I would say that, in terms of the research, I'm not sure about that and I'm a little biased from my personal experience and the population of dogs that I see, because they are anxious and very sensitive and do not habituate well. They actually usually become sensitized to things that are stressful to them. So it usually goes in the opposite direction. I see a lot of learned helplessness and kind of shutting down from aversive situations, but not necessarily tolerance for them.
Speaker 2:It's not that they have relaxed body language and they're comfortable, it's just that they have more of that frozen response and that's as much as we can use, because, as much as we wish they could tell us what they're feeling, a lot of it is based off of guessing from body language and posturing and vocalization. So I always go back to well, does that dog look relaxed? Because I see dogs that are told to be they do great or they're fine with this training, and I see pictures and videos and I say, well, I see 10 different signs of stress in this video. So what is your definition of? This? Is fine or what is accepted or tolerable? But from the more biological level, I'd be really interested to see if there was more research on that, yeah, yeah, so, and you mentioned anxiety is a certain a by-product of pain, especially chronic pain.
Speaker 1:Now, when you start looking at we talked a little bit about behavior meds, but let's talk a little bit more about those combos of when you're treating a. Or maybe you can think of a case that you've worked on lately where it's been somewhat complex. You treated some pain but because of the chronic issues you've had some GI stuff going on. Is it stress? Is it the meds? And then you have to bring in behavior meds. Can you think of any cases recently that are top of mind for you, that are somewhat more complex in that regard, that you had to really navigate things?
Speaker 2:I had one case that it wasn't a classic presentation of pain. The dog actually came to me for conflict-related aggression, so aggression towards the pet parents, and she was about two and a half, she was a rescue mix and she also had aggression towards veterinary staff, some resource guarding, and then they just kind of mentioned she would check her hind end, kind of look back at her hind end. They didn't know what to think of it. Was it a fidget displacement behavior? Was there some anal gland disease going on? And so I started her on fluoxetine. She had been on gabapentin but they didn't really think it helped, so we tried to wean it off. Had been on gabapentin but they didn't really think it helped, so we tried to wean it off. When we started the wean they said, oh no, her skin is twitching more, she is more anxious, she's more arousable. When we brush her hind end she is yelping now. So it was very subtly helping from that point of view. So we said, well, let's try a non-steroidal, anti-inflammatory and joint supplements, which we haven't really gone down that path yet, but I'm a huge proponent for joint supplements. Most dogs should really be on them. And then she became playful and she started asking them to pet her more, which they hadn't seen before.
Speaker 2:But she still was looking back at her hind end, she kept doing that check-in. Dil was looking back at her hind end, she kept doing that check-in. So the suspicion was does she feel something that we don't know what it is, but she feels it, some neuropathic pain we talked about. Well, where do we go from here? Do we go to a neurologist and get an MRI done? Do we see a rehab specialist? But every path led to nobody is going to be able to touch this dog awake, so rehab really wasn't an option for her. If they do an MRI and they find something, is that going to change what we do? Not necessarily, really, we're going to pain management.
Speaker 2:So then I added amantadine, which also helps treat neuropathic pain, which helped even more. So we kind of had to go down this path of treating things with different medications and we kept seeing behavioral improvement. But even still she's doing much better, much more tolerant of being touched, showing a lot more warning signs if she's uncomfortable. But she had an incident where she was kind of jumping on her hind legs playing with somebody. They went to get the toy from her. She yelped and she bit. So it's you know as much as we can do to help control her discomfort. We can't get 100% control and it's also kind of been her go-to response is, when she's uncomfortable, to kind of snap at whoever's closest to her. Yeah, it's been really hard to work through and it's one of those cases that remind me that I mean absolutely amazing pet parent. She is doing everything for this dog, but we often have some limitations of how much we can help each individual dog and how much we can really get the answer of what is it that is causing discomfort for her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sounds like very much a team that you have going with this guardian, which is wonderful when somebody's invested that much in really taking their time to go through the steps and the process of it, because that definitely sounds like a complex case with lots of variables. Can we talk a little bit more about the dogs that check their hind end or maybe some of these compulsive behaviors we might see? So pain-related tail chasing or phantom limb syndrome or excessive licking, those kinds of dogs where? What do you do there? So if it's, do you feel like sometimes it's again that chicken or egg? The behavior issue? So cause it has me thinking about, you know, when we observe dogs around the world, you know we see a lot of these free roaming or street dogs.
Speaker 1:We don't see that tail chasing, flank sucking, you know, compulsive behavior. It's rare, if ever, because you have to think about how much our modern society's, you know environment, has played a role in that. But so you see these compulsive behaviors start to surface. Maybe shadow chasing that's not always necessarily pain related but like, let's go with the tail chasing. Remember that video that was surfacing that dog that's sort of biting at its hind leg when it had a bone. It was like a golden retriever or some sort of mix, like a golden dog that was floating around years ago. But it has me thinking about that. You know, the behavior side. Is it the behavior, is it the pain? So can you think of any cases like that or talk us through what's going on there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, those cases are very complicated, I also find, because once it becomes compulsive it's very hard to break the cycle and usually our goal is not that we're going to eliminate it, but more so we'll decrease frequency or intensity of it. The tail chasing the most common dogs we think about are German Shepherds, and there's research to show that they are more predisposed to it and they also are more predisposed to a lumbosacral stenosis, which is a narrowing of the spine near the hind end. And so then we think well, is it that they're having neuropathic pain from that and that's causing the tail chasing? Or did the tail chasing come first and then they're damaging their tail and then they're causing more issues? So that can get very tricky.
Speaker 2:Anytime I meet a German Shepherd who's tail chasing I'm saying we need to rule out back pain for them. Sometimes it's not as clear cut where they say oh, my dog always kind of playfully went after their tail. My dog always kind of playfully went after their tail. But then the more stressors they were exposed to, the more it became their go-to response and then it developed into a compulsive behavior. So it's not always clear cut that way. Another common example is I get the acral lick dermatitis or that hot spots where the dogs will kind of lick the same spot over and over, and I have dermatologists who will say, no, we ruled out physical.
Speaker 2:Now you need to see a veterinary behaviorist and then I'm treating the anxiety but then they're still having flares of allergy. So we're sending this dog back and forth to say, okay, we're good on our end, what about your end? Okay, now we need a little bit more help on your end. So it's not always that once we figure it out they're good, we have to usually continue to make adjustments and sometimes the way that we are determining if it's anxiety based is we put them on an anxiety medication and see if there's improvement. So I would say there's some compulsive behaviors like air snapping. There's some compulsive behaviors like air snapping, where I have seen that resolve on a behavior medication. But when it comes to more self-mutilating type compulsive behaviors, they're a lot harder to get control of because once they do make contact and they hurt themselves, then you're treating the pain from that injury and then it kind of becomes this really vicious cycle. So usually it's a veterinary behaviorist who's working very closely with another specialist where we're trying to target both of those at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in terms of the medication, if you want to touch on that, is it? Let's say it's a compulsive behavior like, uh, bull terrier tail chasing or dopamine flank sucking, those kind of things. Are we still seeing this same type of meds that they've talked about over the last few years?
Speaker 2:and then, in terms of behavior, just increasing enrichment to help the animals, that tend to be what's happening now so in terms of medication, the research has shown that if fluoxine, generic Prozac and Clomacom or Clomipravine have been effective in treating compulsive behaviors, a newer medication that we use is venlafaxine, which it's an SNRI, so target serotonin and norepinephrine and in humans it is used to treat neuropathic pain sometimes. So if you have a dog who has anxiety and neuropathic pain, it's a really nice option. So that can also be considered in these cases and gabapentin, pregabalin are usually considered as well, especially if you're suspicious that there's a pain component to what's going on. If you want to get a little bit more specific, if it's like a potential skin disease and anxiety, there are also some behavior medications that have some antihistaminic effect when you think about, like Benadryl or Zyrtec. So if you're trying to target the itch and the anxiety, so that might be more of like your amitriptyline, but research-based. Usually fluoxetine or clomipramine have been the ones that have been looked at From a behavior modification standpoint.
Speaker 2:It is hard because sometimes these dogs are immediately over threshold and hard to redirect. When I'm using medications, my goal is to improve ability to redirect out of these episodes and, like I mentioned, improve, reduce frequency and intensity. But mental enrichment I love that because it's. If there's something that helps them self-soothe, can we get them to have a different outlet that is not going towards themselves, for example, but chewing on something like a hard food toy to diffuse some of the anxiety. And also we know chewing is calming to dogs so it could also help even prevent it.
Speaker 2:So I tell clients give those things before an episode is most likely to happen if there is some sort of pattern to it Redirection. So I teach a lot of them to do look or touch or find it, just to kind of snap them out of it if we can Safe place. So for some dogs they know how to self-soothe if they're put in a specific area. Some dogs it's their crate. They love their crate and when they're in there they can calm down more easily and they don't engage in those behaviors. Versus if they're given more free roam, then they have more anxiety and don't know how to cope. They'll revert to those behaviors. So lots of ways depending on that dog's temperament and how it presents.
Speaker 1:Amazing Hagar. I could literally talk to you all day, but I want to be mindful of your time, especially being about behaviors. So where can people find you?
Speaker 2:So I don't do social media in terms of my Smart yeah for my mental health. I don't do social media in terms of my smart yeah for my mental health. I I don't do that to promote myself. Um, so you can find me on my hospital's website if you are interested in connecting in terms of seeing me as a client, but also if you're a trainer who wants to network and talk, or a primary care veterinarian, I'm always happy to, to talk and help, because I know there are not enough of us, not enough veterinary behaviorists, so anyway, I can help. So my hospital is Metropolitan Veterinary Associates, so you can find me there if you need to connect, but otherwise I'm a little incognito.
Speaker 1:All right, I'll be sure to put a link in the show notes to your website. Thank you so much for coming on, and I do hope to see you again in the future.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Me too, this has been really fun.
Speaker 1:It was truly enlightening to talk with Dr Hauser about the often overlooked role of pain in behavior challenges.
Speaker 1:Her ability to connect the dots between physical discomfort, emotional well-being and behavioral outcomes gives us a deeper, more passionate lens for working with both dogs and cats. Whether you're a trainer, vet or pet parent. Dr Hauser's insights are a powerful reminder of how much our animals are communicating if we know how to listen. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit aggressivedogcom. Whether you're a professional or a dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program of its kind, to expert-led webinars, informative articles and the Aggression and Dogs Conference happening September 26th through 28th 2025, in Charlotte, north Carolina, with both in-person and virtual options. And don't forget to check out our Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes, which are solo shows where I walk you through real-world strategies for issues like resource guarding, fear-based aggression, territorial behavior and more. Just hit subscribe or head to the show notes for more info. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends you.