Breed Better. Shelter Less. With Kate Dalman.

Breeding is one of the quickest ways to start a fight in the dog world, but we wanted a different angle: what if breeder decisions are one of the biggest upstream drivers of the behavior problems we’re all trying to solve downstream? I’m joined by Kate Dalman, founder of Herzog’s Heroes, to connect the dots between breeding practices, puppy development, and the aggression and reactivity cases that land on a trainer’s schedule years later.

We get specific about what separates a conscientious breeder from someone who just markets well: selecting parent dogs for balanced temperament, pairing complementary traits, reducing prenatal stress, using written early socialization protocols, and doing the hard work of matching the right puppy to the right home. Kate also explains why the simple promise to take a dog back at any point in its life reshapes everything, from buyer screening to long-term owner support, and how that mindset can prevent shelter surrender before it starts.

Then we zoom out to the bigger system. We talk about the cultural divide between breeders, rescues, and trainers, why “adopt don’t shop” can miss key realities, and how transparency and verifiable standards could help the public compare breeders apples to apples. If you care about dog behavior, dog welfare, and reducing shelter intake, this conversation offers a practical roadmap for “breed better, shelter less.”

About Kate:
https://herzogsheroes.org/about-us
Herzog's Heroes:
https://herzogsheroes.org/

Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com

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CANIS Conference

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Transcript

Why Breeding Shapes Behavior

SPEAKER_01 0:02

In this episode of The Bighty End of the Dog, we're tackling a topic that can stir up strong opinions in the dog world, which is breeding. But instead of debating sides, this conversation looks at something we don't talk about enough, which is how breeder decisions can shape behavior outcomes for the rest of a dog's life. My guest is Kate Dahlman, and she brings a perspective that connects the dots between breeding practices, puppy development, and the behavior challenges many trainers end up working with years later. We talk about how temperament selection, early socialization, and matching the right puppy with the right home can dramatically influence long-term success. We also explore the divide that often exists between breeders, trainers, and rescue organizations, and why more collaboration across these groups could make a real difference in preventing behavior issues and reducing shelter intake. Kate is the founder of Herzogs Heroes, a non-profit focused on preventing dogs from entering shelters by raising standards in dog breeding, placement, and lifelong breeder responsibility. With over 20 years of first-hand experience as a breeder, Kate brings a rare perspective to conversations about canine behavior, connecting how breeder decision making directly influences behavioral outcomes later in a dog's life. Her work centers on reducing the prevalence of serious behavioral issues, including aggression, through transparency, accountability, and proactive breeding practices that set dogs and owners up for long-term success. And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up. If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head over to aggressivdog.com. For pet professionals, there's the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program available on aggression, packed with expert insights and continuing education credits. For Dog Guardians, check out Real Life Solutions, which is a practical course covering everyday challenges like leash reactivity and dog-to-dog aggression. You can also join the Ultimate Access membership for just $29 per month, which gives you access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions, and exclusive discounts. And don't forget to check out the Canis Conference happening this October in Schaumburg, Illinois, which is going to be the world's largest conference dedicated to dog behavior, training, science, veterinary care, dog sports, set work, and shelter and rescue. That can all be found at aggressivedog.com. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bighty End of the Dog. This week we have Kate Dahlman from Herzog's Heroes here. And this episode is going to be all about breeding. And I know it's really important to many of the listeners in our audience about where we're getting dogs from and what can happen with dogs that have behavior issues, of course, when we're talking about aggression, as the focus of the show. So I'm really excited to jump into this conversation because I think this is a conversation that is sorely needed in our industry. So welcome to the show, Kate.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Thank

Why Herzog’s Heroes Exists

SPEAKER_00 3:10

you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

So let's get right into it. So a lot, maybe some people haven't heard of your organization and kind of why you started. So give us a little background about what got you into this. Like what was your motivation and and what what does the organization do now?

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yeah. So I got my start as a breeder 20 plus years ago. And um I found that back then there weren't really many breeder support channels. There, you know, if you went on a forum, you would find that you were met with a lot of hostility. Um it was it was difficult to really learn how to breed well on your own. So uh that's why a lot of breeders, I think uh they they gravitate towards um not even asking questions. They go towards, you know, just learning on their own, trial and error. I really started to look at what breeders like me could have used back then and just seeing like the differences between, you know, um starting off as a breeder, just not having a whole lot of support, and you know, deciding that like we needed to design some things to help support breeders. And then as we moved along, you know, and Heracogs Heroes was formed, I started looking more at what other countries are doing and how they have um systems in place where, you know, these countries don't actually even use spain neuter or things like that often, you know, and they have very low shelter populations. Um, you know, so countries like Sweden and and Germany and Switzerland take a look at those and say, well, why are they able to do it well? And when we really look at it, it's they're they have a cultural mindset that is very different from here. And it's that breeding is an honorable profession and it's treated as such. And so breeders are educated and supported. And here, you know, it's treated as as you know, more immoral, and it's difficult for a good breeder to really feel supported and find the the educational support that they need. And so um, what happens is that here in the United States, we find that um a lot of unqualified people are breeding. And that's not to say that we don't have qualified people breeding uh in the United States, but it does attract a lot of people that are unprepared and maybe even have good intentions, but just don't really know what they should be doing. So that's really where Hair Talk's Heroes was born is just my own personal um, you know, failures and successes and things that I felt that I could have used along the way as far as support systems go. And then really digging into like what systems we need in place here that can help really prevent dogs from entering shelters in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Where did you where did you get the name Herzog Cereals from?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Yeah, Herzog is my uh first stud. And he uh I loved him absolutely beyond all else. Um, and and I brought him, uh I was super proud of him. And just along the way, I really realized that he was a dog that shouldn't have been bred. You know, his puppies uh thankfully all had wonderful homes and they all had good success stories in the end. But Herod Sog was a dog with behavioral issues that uh at first, you know, a German Shepherd, I assumed were just, you know, protection and things like that. But what it really was was he didn't have a balanced temperament, and that's not what we want in a German Shepherd. And so uh breeding him really opened my eyes. And it took a lot of, it took a long time for me to realize, you know, breeders have something that they deal with, and it's called kennel blindness. And um, it's where you are you can make decisions about the dogs that you're gonna breed out of love or out of, you know, worrying about, you know, trying to fill deposits or you know, just just reasons that you know you shouldn't choose to breed to parents. So that was actually one of the biggest um eye-openers for me. And so that was, you know, just kind of a made sense

Ethical Vs Conscientious Breeding

SPEAKER_00 7:25

that it was Hirtox heroes.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Yeah, it's a good way to honor him. Yeah. So when we talk about what there's this these terms that get thrown around in the industry, and it reminds me actually what you were saying there is that you know the the information was there wasn't a lot of information, or you get you're kind of afraid to stick your head out to even ask questions. It reminded me of the parallels of the dog training industry, and so much of the uh also the parallels of dog training and behavior in those countries you're mentioning are so much different than what we have in there here in the US. But um, one of the the terms that gets used a lot when we're and and and this is kind of new to the dog training world too, is that the idea of ethical breeding or breeding for behavior, which we as trainers love, of course. Um, but talk us through that term or maybe some other terminology you might use.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Yeah, so actually we are trying to get away from the term ethical breeding. Um, ethical breeding is essentially um supposed to mean that a breeder is, you know, doing their due diligence to breed to uh the highest moral standard they possibly can. And um the reason we want to get away from that term and move toward the term conscientious breeding is because ethical breeding is more of a, it's like a self-proclamation and it means something different to everyone. So where one person can call themselves ethical, it means one, you know, one thing, and then another person calls themselves ethical and it means something totally different. And we find that it's really, really difficult for, you know, a potential puppy buyer to be able to wade through, you know, good breeders versus bad breeders, you know, and what we see is that, you know, every breeder really describes their program differently. There's no apples to apples, you know, information as far as, you know, how temperaments are tested or how they describe those temperaments, you know, of the parents and and of the puppies. And so what we find is that a lot of people end up buying their puppies based on whichever breeder has the slickest tongue, and um, and that doesn't necessarily make them the best breeder. Um, and then they also purchase puppies based on um timing and um really pretty pictures. So when we look at conscientious breeding, what we've been trying to define is what makes a breeder really stand out and and what are those things that we really want to see breeders doing, you know. So then uh it really comes down to things like what are their long-term plans, what are their, uh how do they support their owners, how do they prepare their owners, how do they match their puppies to their owners? How are they choosing their parents? Long-term care, and we have place a really heavy uh significance on breeders that will always accept their dogs back. Um, we feel that that is a duty of a conscientious breeder to accept that dog back, you know, if they ever need it at any stage in life to avoid a dog from ever entering a shelter. But having that mindset for a breeder, it's not easy. You know, if you're breeding from your home and you have to think about, you know, what's it gonna look like if a three-year-old dog gets returned to me and I don't have, you know, room for it. And is it gonna get along with my other dogs and my family? And what is that gonna look like? So for a small breeder, having plans like that in place, which is what we try to help develop, that is crucial, you know, and when you've got a breeder with a mindset of, okay, I have to know that a dog could always come back to me at any time, then their game plan shifts. You know, it's like then they look at owners, potential owners a little more carefully. They're not, you know, allowing impulse buyers or people that are underprepared to get their pups. And they're also trying to just match the um the right owner with the right puppy from the beginning. So we see the breeders that are practicing these things have much higher success rates for their pups in their homes long term. And so those are the types of things that we really emphasize is just how can we set owners up for long-term success and support them, you know, as they go along, because a growing puppy goes through a lot of changes and it can be difficult.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

You know, again, going back to the parallels to the training industry, you you were talking about, you know, uh as a consumer or somebody looking to get a puppy or somebody looking for training advice, it's really difficult to know quality from not, and there's no regulation in the training industry. So so talk us through well, uh let me start with this part.

Temperament Selection And Balanced Dogs

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Uh let's get back to what qualities or standards you know would make for a conscientious breeder. And and I will say to the audience, I had a I had the privilege of reviewing um the program that Kate is developing and uh the beh you know the behavior and the behavioral aspect of it, meaning the the what you're looking for was very impressive, very thorough, very impressive, very well thought out. So thank you. So t talk us through some of those. The what like what are what qualities? You mentioned some of the qualities, and when people think breeders, we want to see good health, of course. But talk us through some of the behavior stuff and and other qualities that you're mentioning, like taking the dog back at any time and those kind of things in addition to those things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

But I think when we look at behavior, the behavior end of it specifically, and and we do have several other things that, you know, um qualify somebody to be a conscientious breeder, but when we look at the behavior end of it, it's so important to choose parent dogs that have the right temperaments. But I think a lot of breeders don't know, you know, the breeders that maybe are newer to it or or just haven't had the guidance that they need, um, they don't really take into consideration that the, you know, parent dogs need to be matched with complementary temperament parent dogs, or or not even just temperament, also, you know, confirmation and health. So we have to look at how those parents as a whole are going to, you know, what that litter will produce. You know, so if you have two parents that are really, really sweet dogs, but maybe a, you know, a little on that tenderhearted side and you match them together thinking, I'm just gonna get the sweetest puppies ever, well, you also are like, you know, risking having, you know, a litter of puppies that are just too far on that tender-hearted side and to toward the fearful side. So we want to try to match parents that we've got puppies that are balanced. We also want to avoid inuteral stress so that we don't have puppies that are born, you know, out of that stressed, you know, situation. Um, we want to match puppy owners with the right puppy. And I can't stress that one enough because I've seen from my own personal early years, you know, choosing owners that were just absolutely wonderful, kind people. And I just thought, you know, this is going to be a wonderful fairy tale story. This puppy's gonna have a wonderful life with these really wonderful people. And then come to find out, well, you know what, you matched this puppy with people that, you know, were maybe not placing the right boundaries that the puppy needed or not capable of building confidence where this puppy needed. So I think when you look at um what you want the long-term success of your puppies to be, you have to take temperament of not only the puppy, but the owners and what their household looks like in their life looks like in order to try to match properly. So I think that that's another really important factor.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

So some trainers look for breeders that do a lot of preliminary socialization handling, those kinds of things, preparing them for aspects of their life that are that can tend to be challenges from a behavioral aspect. You know, that's so that's trainers, the cases that we work with, maybe a puppy or a dog that doesn't like their nails trimmed or their ears cleaned or they're afraid of this or that because they weren't exposed to it early on, or like we've all heard the poppy mill stories where the dog doesn't even know what grass feels like. So so what do you what do you look for there when you're talking about conscientious breeding?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Uh well, so we feel like breeders that have, you know, written protocols are are going to be really important. And and and actually when we're looking at conscientious breeding, a lot of what we're trying to look at is not that we want to see things that uh can be proven and written and and just you know, we don't we don't want to just take people's word for you know that they're doing these things. So, you know, what we like to see are, you know, what is your written protocol for uh early socialization, early stimulation? And there are different programs out there that are acceptable to you. So we aren't trying to tell every breeder that they need to do things exactly the same. We um, you know, think that breeding programs, you know, do need to vary in in being unique in their own way. Um but yeah, we want to see that, you know, that they do have a solid written protocol and on and what systems they they prefer to use. And then we take a look and say, okay, well, you know, maybe we can give some recommendations on things that you can do to enrich that program. Um, because, you know, again, some some of these programs are lacking, and some breeders, you know, they've they've kind of figured out, like, hey, this is what I like to do. It's not a specific program that I'm using. But um, you know, we we want to be able to offer help and guidance um to try

Matching Puppies To Real Homes

SPEAKER_00 16:55

to, you know, have the remote most robust program possible.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah. What about um because you had mentioned uh someone really looking at the person that's coming to to get a puppy uh in their environment and their home? Let's talk about uh dogs bred for certain purposes, so working dogs, so working border collies or working Malanois or something like that. Um is there any other guardrails that that you suggest be put in place so that way that somebody is not just seeing the Belgian Malinois on a Disney movie is gonna come over and be like, I love Belgian Malinois, but they don't know what they're getting into.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yeah. You know, actually we we see, you know, obviously see a lot of issues like that where, you know, uh people have been mismatched because they saw a dog on a movie that they really liked. You know, you see a Belgian Malinois video and you're like, holy cow, that dog is amazing. I want that. So uh yeah, we do see that a lot. And we believe that when we see the breeders, um uh a lot of well, I guess a lot of breeders are out there that they have the utmost confidence in their dogs. And they believe that with enough training, any owner can do well. And that's not necessarily the case because some owners are just not going to have that time or that personality to be able to, you know, do what they need to do to support that dog and make them the best dog they can possibly be. So we feel like, you know, working lines need extra attention. Um, breeders need to be especially focused on, you know, the capability and the time commitment and things like that that the potential owners are willing to give. And so we do think that that's really important. I think that some breeders, since it's they're used to it, it's it's normal for them, it's normal behavior for them. I think they may forget um that it's not uh normal for everybody to have a dog that has high drive in their house and it's not attainable for all of those people to be able to, you know, handle that. Those that's that's a dog that um requires somebody that's that's really capable of um giving

Taking Dogs Back For Life

SPEAKER_00 19:00

them the uh everything they need.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

And thinking through I'm kind of putting myself in a breeder's seat right now, but how do you guys handle or cope with the challenges of somebody gets a dog from you? And let's let's put it just the word so that they screw it up, right? So they they do something with training or um the environment or something that they're they're just like the dog learns like aggression, like it's for whatever reason they set the environment. They did something and the dog's biting people now, and now you are tasked with taking that dog back. What are you what how does what's your thought process and how do your feelings go with that?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Okay, yeah, this is this is a big question because um, so for me as a you know, I I always was a um, you know, private breeder, didn't have a big kennel facility. So when I have have had a dog returned, and thankfully I've had a very low return rate, but when a dog is returned, um, you usually only have about 12 to 24 hours notice um that the dog is going to be coming back. Um and so knowing how difficult that is and how stressful that can be for the dog and for the the all the people in the house, and you're trying to, you know, you know, prepare for this dog to come home and give them the support they need, it just kind of reminds me how crucial it is to have these kind of game plans set up and how to, you know, like, you know, have your soft landing plan prepared and and what does it look like to, you know, where where is this dog gonna stay? How are you gonna socialize with your other animals? How are you going to integrate them in in a way that is going to help benefit them? I think a lot of people don't realize, you know, how hard it can be to say, okay, now I'm going to just be prepared for this dog at any time. Um, and I think that as a breeder, when you uh do have that mindset and you do have that understanding that that is something that is, you know, we believe it's your, you know, your duty to that dog that you brought into the world to always be willing to accept them back. Um, once you have that mindset, then uh you look at things differently. You look at your placements differently. You want to make sure that your owners are prepared for the dog that you've got. Like for me, uh I'm if I have a puppy that has a little more high drive, I want to make sure that their owners are prepared. If I have a puppy that's a little more tenderhearted, I want to make sure my owners understand that they're gonna be working on building confidence because getting that dog back at three years old or four years old, you know, whatever, and they are now a basket case and you're trying to work on, trying to, you know, work on all these behaviors and then finding them a suitable home. Um, that is a challenge that uh I think any breeder who's ever dealt with that or has ever really thought that through uh wants to avoid uh having that happen. And the best way to do that is to choose your, you know, your parent dogs properly from the day one, match properly, uh, you know, match your pro parents properly, you know, again, avoid the inuteral stress. And then it's it really boils down to matching your puppies with the proper owners, and then, you know, of course, long-term support for those owners when they do go through those rough puppy stages. So I think as a breeder, you know, you have to be looking at like the big picture from day one and what your responsibilities are, you know, and that those responsibilities do not end at the sale of the dog. And I think that if we can kind of get that cultural mindset shift, then um we're gonna start seeing breeders behaving more honorably, but also the public starting to see breeding as something that's a more honorable profession.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yes. Uh you know, you have such a great way of answering questions because I can tell it comes from such a place of nobody told me this stuff before, so now I need to get it out there to everybody else. I could I recognize so much and I appreciate it so much because even right now I'm learning so much about this. So um, so thank you for answering the questions in the way you do. Um, I

Culture Gaps And Shelter Numbers

SPEAKER_01 23:00

and you were talking about responsibility, and I kind of want to jump back to other countries and the differences and sort of the I don't know if we would call them laws or regulations or even how people approach animal welfare and and their views of animals. But what are the some of the significant differences between, like, say, Switzerland or Germany and the US and I guess limitations or restrictions placed on producing dogs or breeding dogs? Like what are the what do you say is the most significant factor that's or some some of the significant factors that are most helpful to see that kind of dynamic?

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Well, I would say the biggest thing is that there is definitely a very different cultural mindset there. You know, so each of those countries, like Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, they all have like different, they they all handle uh breeding differently. Um, some of them don't necessarily span neuter their dogs, you know, and they and they don't have shelters overrun with dogs. Uh, they certainly aren't euthanizing dogs for space and shelters. You know, so what is the if you really look at like, okay, they've got some, um, some of them have regulations, some of them have breeder educational programs, they've all got something a little different going on. What is the main thing that you go back to, though, is that they have a cultural mindset that breeding is an honorable profession. And so what that does is that means that they're setting up breeders for success with their, you know, educational programs or things like that. And breeders that are qualified are attracted to the field because it's a field that people can feel good about being in. Here, you know, we have this issue where breeding is treated as immoral, it's it's it's a bad word, and and and breeders can't necessarily hold their heads high. And so, although we do, you know, as I said earlier, we have a number of qualified breeders in the United States, the numbers of unqualified breeders far outweigh that. And I'm not saying that unqualified breeders are bad people. I think a lot of them started out just like me, where I just didn't know where to turn. I actually, when I started breeding, I, you know, tried to learn as much as I could about it. And, you know, I contacted AKC and I said, okay, I've got these two AKC registered dogs and, you know, I want to breed them. What do I do? And um I was called, you know, I was told over the phone, oh, just send your registrations in. And, you know, we'll we'll, you know, when the litter arrives, send the parent registrations in and we will, you know, we'll send you the litter certificates. And I was like, oh, okay. Now this is, I'm gonna tell you how ignorant I was back then to how this all works. I thought that that meant that my my dogs already had met some rigorous standards just by being in this bloodline that the AKC was keeping track of, and and and I did not understand that that it was just tracking their lineage. Like it, I did not get that. And I think a lot of breeders missed that. But then I went in and I took my dogs to the vet and I said, okay, I want to breed these dogs. What do you think? And my vet said, yeah, they're healthy to breed. Well, I didn't know back then, you know, I was young. I had no idea back then that genetic testing was very different from a vet uh health check, right? And and so a lot of these things I learned the hard way along the way. And, you know, and my heart was always in the right place. I always wanted to do better. And and it, it, it, it always really hurt, you know, hearing people um just, you know, talk down about breeders and and that feeling of like, you know, I was doing something immoral or wrong when it was something that I just loved so dearly. And so I think that when we see um, you know, this mindset here, I think that we can do so much more good if we can, you know, switch that mindset. And I do have to say that, you know, we have to remember that there are many, many dogs in shelters. And so the the mindset that we have here, there's it comes with good reason. There are people every day working in shelters trying to, you know, pick up the pieces of you know, breeders who haven't stuck through and haven't been there to support their dogs or accidental breedings, or, you know, any number of reasons why these dogs are ending up in shelters. But when we look at the situation, you know, we look at the numbers of dogs out there. There are about a hundred, a hundred million dogs in the United States, they estimate, something like, you know, 90 to 100 million, depending on, you know, where you're looking at your numbers. And then you look at the fact that we've got a turnover rate, like we have dogs passing every year that, you know, about 10, you can guess, you know, if they've got an average lifespan of about 10 to 13 years, then we can look at every year, we've got about 10% of dogs passing away. And then you look at the millions and millions of people out there that are actively looking for dogs every day. So what it boils down to is not necessarily that we've got an overpopulation issue. It's more that we don't have systems in place to set these puppies up that are brought into the world up for long-term success. And to do that, to change this, to, you know, see this endless supply of dogs stop going into shelters and being supported long term. To do this, we need we need a cultural mindset shift and we need to put systems in place to, you know, make it so that breeders are able to support their dogs long term.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Really, really well said. So such excellent points there. And I want to ask you about adopt, don't shop when you hear those words. But I'm gonna take a little moment to take a break and hear a word from our sponsors, and we'll be right back.

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SPEAKER_01 28:52

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Adopt Don’t Shop And Unintended Harm

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Alright, we're back here with Kate Dahlman. We were talking about all things breeding, and we left off before the break talking about those words, adopt, don't shop. And uh we're not gonna jump into criticizing anyone here, it's just those particular words though we hear sometimes in our industry. Um what are your thoughts on that and when you hear that and and of course the the what can happen when you when when we start getting in those conversations? So and how does that affect you?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Well, uh again, given that there are you know millions of dogs in shelters, uh, adopt don't shop, I completely see, you know, why it's it's a valid phrase and it's an important thing to keep in mind. You know, but when we look at the the system, the bigger picture, the issue again is not necessarily overpopulation. It's that we don't have systems in place to take care of the dogs that we have. So if a person is out there looking for a dog, either the sh the dog in the shelter isn't specifically what they're looking for, or the shelter is not allowing them to adopt. So those are two big issues about why people choose to go to a breeder. You know, so when we look at the term adopt, don't shop, um, you know, in my mind, what always comes instead is breed better, shelter less. Because what we want to do is stop the flow of dogs going into shelters. And um, I feel like if, you know, you take that mindset of if all breeders would just stop breeding, then shelters would empty out. And what we would immediately see, given the fact that we have such a you know a demand for dogs and that the dog populations, again, are, you know, 100 million in the United States, and we've got about two to three million in shelters, and then we've got about 10 to 15 million passing away every year. What we would see immediately is that the shelters would empty out. And then we would see a black market of dogs coming around with probably very poor breeding standards. And uh we would see a lot of, you know, people trying to import dogs because the demand for dogs wouldn't go away. And what would happen then is, you know, we'd see a boom in breeders coming back and people that are probably not qualified. We would see strain in like, do we have well-bred or purebred dogs anymore? But then the issue is going to come back because we haven't put systems in place. So the shelters will end up filling up again because we don't have the systems in place that we need. So while adopt don't shop, or well, um, you know, the thought of all breeding should just stop on its face seems like it makes a ton of sense. Um, when you really look at the bigger picture and what systems we're lacking and what systems we absolutely can put in place, those are things that we're working on right now. Um, the the solution is not as simple as just, you know, putting it like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah. And I I think one of the things I was thinking through too is that when people hear breeding, the word breeding, a breeder, that's a big category, as you had mentioned. There's people that are doing it conscientiously, and then there's puppy mills. And sometimes that gets all lumped together is like this mass production of dogs, right? Oh my gosh, we're getting we're overpopulating the US with dogs. But um, you bring up a lot of good points there. And another thing that that we haven't talked about yet is when we're getting more uh difficult dogs, when I say difficult in terms of behavior issues coming into the system, either through poor breeding practices, which is one of the reasons. There's obviously a lot of other readings, reasons out there genetics, environment, um, lack of socialization, typical things that we see as trainers is that sometimes people go to that shelter and they adopt that dog and it's got the behavior issues, or worse, they get bitten, or they are what they call um uh outsourcing euthanasia. So it's a rescue that's like, all right, we have this problem, dog finally gets adopted out, and they try to return the dog after a biting incident, and the rescue won't take them back. And so now that person is tasked with the problem, right? So and guess what happens is those folks are like, I am never adopting again. I'm only gonna get from a breeder. And so that's another part of the the this whole picture that uh is a challenge,

Early Puppy Raising That Builds Resilience

SPEAKER_01 34:30

you know. Um and so let's let's get into you know, because there's people listening in problem, like, okay, we talked about what a what a conscientious breeder looks like, but let's get into some of the practices when it comes to behavior that you find. Um, and maybe there's even support out there. There's been some studies done on puppy rearing and genetics, and of course we can get into that, but what are some of the the best practices you're seeing in conscientious breeders to ensure these puppies are going out there and they're ready, they're equipped, they have resilience, you know, other than selecting for temperament, so yes, genetics, but what are some things while when the from the day the puppy's born up till they leave though to to go off to their forever home, what is the what are some good practices?

SPEAKER_00 35:13

You know, I've seen um a lot of breeders have different methods, and so I'm not I I I I haven't really found one method that I can say like this is the way to do it. Um, but certainly breeders who are giving puppies positive, positive experiences from you know very early on. So when they're, you know, when they're very young, touching them certain ways, as they get a little older, we're gonna have start introducing different stimuli. And that can look different for every breeder. You know, it can be, you know, one breeder might use a stuffed animal in the corner, another breeder is gonna, you know, do it a different way. But starting to introduce these puppies to different scents, sounds, people, uh, and then trying to make sure that those experiences are positive. So, you know, you'll hear the breeder that I had one breeder that recently, you know, sent me a video of their puppies, and you could hear kids screaming in the background and running around and things like that. And it's like, well, you know, you could look at that and say, okay, well, these puppies are going to be, you know, desensitized to a lot of things, you know, so they could be great in in a home with children. But then you can also look at it and say, well, how positive are those interactions between the puppies and the kids? Because sometimes kids aren't intending for a, you know, an interaction to be negative for a puppy. But how is the puppy seeing that? And and if if it's a, you know, say it is a busy mom, and guess what? I've been that busy mom with puppies and kids and and whatever else. And it was like a full-time job just teaching the children how to properly, you know, handle the puppies and care for the puppies and things like that. So I think that each breeder's situation is different. And I it's it's tough to say specifically, but I definitely want to see puppies that are, you know, being exposed to positive experiences early on. And I think that a breeder, by the time this puppy is going to their uh new home, should have a very good grasp of, you know, personalities of these puppies, you know, who is a little more tender-hearted and needs to be matched with somebody that is going to help build confidence? Who is that really like, you know, just confident puppy that needs, you know, help with boundaries? So I think all of those things are really gonna uh important. That first eight weeks that, you know, a breeder uh has a puppy is just so incredibly important. But, you know, we can't discount the fact that leading up to it, uh leading up to those eight weeks is important and then extending past the sale uh for the life of the dog is is crucial for those dogs that you know may need a place to go at some point. And or, or even, you know, a breeder being able to, you know, help support the owner when they need it and they're they're they just need some reassurance can be the difference between a dog and entering a shelter or a dog having, you know, behavioral issues, aggression, things like that. A breeder being able to step in when an owner needs that and and recognize these things uh can make all the difference in the world.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Yeah. So it sounds like one of the key aspects is support, really, after in addition to all the the stuff you do before, but you know, that that's a missing component, I think a lot of people struggle with is like, what do I do now? And I where do I turn? And unfortunately, this is and this is why I think trainers and readers and anybody in this in the pet care or just the whole industry should be talking more because you know this is where the problem lies is that it's a it's there's a disconnect, and then everybody's kind of like just keeping their head down and not talking to the other professionals in the room, and it's so so crucial for that support. And that support can be with additional resources with folks that are specializing certain issues, or you know, something comes up with a puppy or an adolescent dog for a behavior issue, and you have that support. And and a lot of the pet parents are like, Where do I go? What do I do? And I'll talk to my breeder, and then the breeder's like, Oh, I don't know. So, you know, so we need these, we need these collaborations, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:17

I think uh you're you just hit the nail on the head. Um, we need these collaborations more than I think people realize, you know. I think because again, breeding is not necessarily seen as an honorable profession here. Uh people are not uh having those conversations with them and they have a lot to offer with it. And likewise, you know, uh switching gears just a little bit, we have, you know, a great divide between the rescue world and the breeding world. And um, I've built some wonderful relationships with people uh from the rescue world. And I believe that those relationships like have benefited

Bridging Breeders Rescues And Trainers

SPEAKER_00 39:55

uh both sides mutually. I think that we need to start trying to bridge the gap and unify um, you know, breeders, rescues, trainers. Like we need to get everybody having these conversations together. And and it's actually very interesting because um, you know, and this was this was, you know, your your brainchild was me setting up our our uh meetings with these trainers that you and I had talked about. And it was uh really opened my eyes because their perspective is very, very different than my perspective as a breeder. And so it's I think an important conversation that we need to start having across the board, you know, just like with my rescue contacts, like we we are able to open each other's eyes, I think, across the board to like the the issues. And and so it's it's just very important.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah. So it's kind of thinking about that aspect, reaching across the aisle and and understanding, you know, viewpoints. One of the things that I think trainers in in behavior consultants uh struggle with or see is when I won't mention any particular breeds, but like let's just use brachiocephalic dogs, for instance, and we see some breeders just looking for for at the confirmation, so the looks of the dog, and that they're maybe thinking about health, but that that health and selecting for certain traits in the dogs um it's it's causing the behavior issues, in other words. So let's just say the bakies found. They're just having they're struggling, some some of them may be struggling to breathe, or you know, in a hot environment, they're getting stressed, or they're having trouble sleeping, and that's affecting their behavior, which just they're displaying aggression because of that, those health issues. So I I I can see the trainer perspective lens on that, but take us through the your conscientious breeder lens and how you address that issue.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Well, okay, so that's a very good question. Um, so what we see is that, you know, breeding is, although it's not treated as an honorable profession and it's not necessarily bringing in the people that are are most qualified for it, what it is is a um, it's a highly competitive field. You know, there anybody can go out and get two dogs and they can breed them and then they can start marketing them. And, you know, you can have them on their Facebook page or whatever else. And so one way that a lot of breeders are standing out is by breeding dogs for a specific look. So when you are breeding only for a specific look, you are not taking into consideration health, longevity, temperament. And that is a real struggle in the breeding world. So, you know, for me, uh, with the uh German Shepherd world, you see people trying to breed for specific coat colors and things like that. And you also see that there are a lot of dogs out there that may have gotten that coat color, but they are missing the confirmation, they're missing the health, they're missing the temperament. So that is something that we do talk a lot about with our, you know, our certification program is just, you know, how do you still have that uniqueness that you're looking for in your program? Because again, we don't want every program to be the same. We how do you still take all of those things into consideration and still get the outcome that you're looking for? And when you do take all of those things into consideration, the outcome may not come as easily, but it is going to be better in the long run. And again, likewise, when you've got breeders that are starting to understand that, you know, we've got this cultural mindset shift and we've got, you know, people that are looking for breeders that are willing to be accountable to their dogs for their entire life. You know, when a breeder now is accountable for that dog for its entire life, their decisions look different. You know, again, it's like, I want the long term health, I want the long term, you know, temperament and the longevity of the dog and everything like that, because I don't want, you know, those things going wrong because I am on the hook past, you know, the point of that sale. So uh, you know, I guess that just kind of goes back.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

into what I you know keep saying about this this mind mindset shift because we we do need that um you know in order to help breeders understand you know their long-term responsibilities yeah I you know in in summarizing so much of what we've talked about you you kind of think how do we shift that image for breeders right and and and my mind goes to you know people people like quality right and so it c creating sort of that brand reputation for breeders is important and if you think about it it's just it's like it is business in the sense of people want quality right so it's like if you were if you're used to going out and getting cars and they're breaking down on you all the time right you're gonna get frustrated and so like you're gonna stop going to that used car lot. You're gonna go to find you know a nice quality Toyota that's you know is going to last because Toyota's built that brand reputation and maybe this particular dealership does all of the checks and they support you after and they do your oil changes for life and all those kind of things. And I think that same image shift needs to kind of and that's what worries me too about the training industry is that we're also going through that these these dynamic shifts in the industry where I'm worried you know because people on the outside are like what is wrong with these trainers all they do is fight all the time and they're like I always arguing I don't know who to turn to and I can see how breeders are are

Transparency Tools And Certification Plans

SPEAKER_01 45:25

struggling through the same um industry growth and shifts right now. So yeah. What are your thoughts on like like increasing that image like the the image to get to like it's an honorable like profession as you mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Yep that's the whole thing. So uh you bring up excellent points so when you're thinking about you know purchasing a puppy and you reach out to you know 10 10 breeders right how do you determine uh who's a good breeder and and who's doing who's being truthful or and who's just a slick talker who who actually is you know doing these things and so we've been working on with through our certification program, through the app that we're building and through our county pilot programs that we're putting together, we're looking at how do we how do we prove and really be make it so that owners can compare breeders apples to apples with information that is transparent and it's information that is verifiable. And so you know that's when we look at things like okay uh what were the genetic tests performed and what were you know what were you doing to ensure that you have the proper temperament and and what do your contracts look like do your contracts um you know protect both the the breeder and the buyer because a lot of breeder contracts are just this like one page like yep you bought the dog for me and I'm in charge of everything and da da da but you know you have you have no you know um support. So um there are a lot of things like that and and and it's not an easy you know like not going to be one little thing that fixes it all. And that's why we are looking at this from you know the direction of the certification and the uh county level pilot programs I think are going to be very important and the app. So it's it's a lot of big picture stuff but the the goal is that these things uh all working together are going to be able to start helping the general public have a trust in breeders and also you know it's like so if the general population is saying hey I this is what I want in a breeder breeders uh if they want to be able to have you know a market for their puppies they're going to have to you know be showing that they are doing these things. So this is how that cultural mindset shift is going to happen. And it's not going to be an overnight thing but I think we do need the support of you know the rescue world like thank God we've had um you know a lot of support from you know Humane World giving us just um you know words of encouragement there. You know, we've got um locally we've we've started to really build you know better relationships with rescues and I think that you know again that that cultural mindset shift is going to take time but that is going to be how we can start letting people see the difference between you know or just actually be able to determine better be breeding practices, looking for those better breeding practices and and see see a change. Is the plan for her dogs here is with this like certification to make it sort of a recognized nationally recognize like this is the seal of approval you're looking for when shopping yeah yeah absolutely so uh but in order to do that we actually um have long to longer term goals of um we in order for this to be that it needs to become a nationally accredited program with an association so there is a longer term um plan in place that is beyond hair talks heroes right now and we're working on that and we're excited about the direction that it's going in.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

You know when I started this I was looking at you know how can I help support breeders and I never would have imagined that it was going to take you know the the turn that it has but to me I'm it's it it gives me hope that we're going to see lower shelter populations and we're gonna see um you know better breeding practices all around what do you sort of like wrapping up some final thoughts here if you could envision the perfect future for

The Future Kate Wants

SPEAKER_01 49:35

dogs and where we're getting them from in the US what would it look like for you? Because would that mean complete elimination of shelters and rescues so there's no need for it, which we know is probably you're gonna always have some need, but what's the what's the future look like for Kate?

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Um I I definitely would like to see um breeding not be a dirty word anymore. And I would like to see uh a unification between uh the rescue world and the breeding world because I think that there is a lot to gain there from um having healthier relationships. I think that the the divide that we have right now is not as much as you know everybody's a dog lover and and and their hearts are in the right place. Like I think that the divide that we have right now is actually only you know harming the longer term goal of shelter populations being reduced. But I do think that what we're doing, I think that it it it has the possibility to drastically reduce shelter intake. You know, when you look at the uh the numbers of um dogs in shelters a lot of people are like oh well those aren't actually from breeders anyway you know they're they're mixed breeds or they're this or that but you know accidental litters are from breeders too we can support them to help avoid you know those situations and a lot of dogs that are in shelters also that appear to be mixed breeds or you know whatever may just have been from a breeder that didn't have dogs with great confirmation or were attempting to you

Where To Find Kate And Closing

SPEAKER_00 51:05

know create their own designer breed. So I think breeders play a big role in it and there's a lot of room for growth here.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah very well said very well said so what's the best way for people to find you if you want to give a shout out to Herzog.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Yeah so our website uh herzogsheroes.org is really the hub right now uh we're building you know online resources for breeders and for owners breeders can sign up to be beta testers for our certification program. You know people that want to really get involved can learn about how to start our programs, you know, our county pilot programs in their area with our support of course and people can also find my book Breed Better Shelter Less.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Fantastic jump into the show notes if you guys want to learn more about and support this initiative. Kate, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. It's been a wonderful conversation and I wish you all the best with your initiative.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Thank you. I cannot thank you enough for having me here today.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

It was wonderful sitting down with Kate and exploring this topic from the breeder's perspective. Conversations like this highlight how important it is for breeders, trainers, shelters, and behavior pros to work together if we want to improve outcomes for dogs. When we focus on thoughtful breeding decisions, early puppy development and ongoing support for owners, we can help prevent many of the behavior challenges that show up later in a dog's life. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression visit aggressivedog. Whether you're a professional or a dedicated dog guardian you'll find everything from the Aggression and Dogs Master Course to expert-led webinars, informative articles and details about the upcoming Canis conference happening this October in Stomburg Illinois with both in-person and virtual options thanks for listening in and as always