The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
The Real World of Consent-Based Care With Tabitha Kucera
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Touching animals sounds simple enough. But what happens when you need to trim a nail, clean an ear, draw blood, remove a painful mat, or help a frightened animal through urgent medical care?
In this episode, I’m joined by Tabitha Kucera, an Elite Fear Free and Low Stress Handling Certified Registered Veterinary Technician and Veterinary Technician Specialist in Behavior. We take a practical and honest look at what humane handling means when an animal needs care but may not want to be touched.
We talk about consent, cooperative care, low-stress handling, and Fear Free veterinary care—and why none of these should be treated as a one-size-fits-all approach. Tabitha explains how body language, baseline stress, pain, illness, relationship history, and context can change how an animal experiences touch. We also discuss the important difference between an animal who is comfortable and one who is frozen, shut down, or simply enduring the interaction.
There is an important human side to this conversation as well. Caregivers may be frightened, frustrated, or ashamed when routine husbandry becomes difficult. Veterinary teams may be working under significant time pressure with an animal who urgently needs help. Better outcomes require communication, empathy, realistic expectations, and collaboration among trainers, veterinary professionals, groomers, shelter teams, and caregivers.
If you’ve ever wondered when touch is welcome, when it’s necessary, and how we can make difficult handling safer and more humane, this episode is for you.
If you find the conversation helpful, please share it with a colleague, subscribe to the podcast, and leave a review so more professionals and caregivers can find it.
About Tabitha:
https://chirrupsandchatter.com/about/
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
Learn more about the CANIS Conference here:
CANIS Conference
Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
Check out all of our webinars, courses, and educational content here:
Webinars, courses, and more!
Welcome, Guest, And Resources
SPEAKER_02In this episode of The Bitey End of the Dog, I'm joined by Tabitha Cassera for a unique conversation about touch, handling, and what it really means to care for animals in ways that are both safe and humane. While that may sound simple, this discussion gets into some of the most meaningful questions we face as trainers, veterinary professionals, groomers, shelter workers, and caregivers. When is touch welcome? When is it necessary? And how do we navigate those moments when an animal needs care but may not want to be touched? Throughout the episode, Tabitha defines the role and definitions of consent, cooperative care, low stress handling, and fear-free practices, while also emphasizing that there's no one-size-fits-all approach. We talk about how body language, baseline, stress levels, relationship history, pain, context, and individual preferences all influence how animals experience touch. We also explore the emotional toll this can take on caregivers, the realities veterinary teams face when animals need urgent care, and why collaboration across professions matters so much if we want better outcomes for both animals and humans. Tabitha is an elite, fear-free, and low-stress handling certified, registered veterinary technician, a veterinary technician specialist in behavior, a certified cat behavior consultant, and a KPA certified training partner. She's the founder of Chure-Ups and Chatter, Cat and Dog Behavior Consulting and Training, and serves as the animal behavior technician at the Gentle VET in Ohio. In addition to working directly with clients, Tabitha consults with veterinary hospitals and animal shelters, focusing on education, implementation, and the development of practical training, behavior programs, and standard operating protocols that improve animal welfare and team success. Her contributions have helped create comprehensive onboarding, training, and behavior resources for organizations across the industry. And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up. If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head on over to aggressivedog.com. For pet professionals, there's the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program available on aggression, packed with extra insights and continuing education credits. For Dog Guardians, check out Real Life Solutions, a practical course covering everyday challenges like leash reactivity and dog-to-dog aggression. You can also join the Ultimate Access membership for just $29 a month, which gives you access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions, and exclusive discounts. And don't forget to check out the Canis Conference, happening this October in Schaumburg, Illinois, which is going to be the world's largest conference dedicated to dog behavior, training, science, veterinary care, dog sports, scent work, and shelter and rescue. Now, let's jump into this conversation with Tabitha. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Bighty End of the Dog. This week, I have Tabitha Cocera joining us, and we are going to be talking about touching animals. And that might sound weird, but we're talking about kind of a little bit of a philosophical discussion here about like when it's okay to touch an animal and not. And then of course we're going to get into the substance of this episode, which is around um husbandry, handling, care, when we need to do things uh to animals in the name of veterinary care as well as other things. Grooming can be just training. So deep dive topic, and I can't think of anybody else better than Tabitha to discuss this with. So welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for having me. I always love chatting with you, and we all know I love handling.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah. And for you guys that don't know, Tabitha and I have done presentations together on this topic. Me coming from the trainer side, Tabitha
When Touch Is Welcome Or Needed
SPEAKER_02coming from both the trainer side and the veterinary side. So I'm very honored to be discussing this with you. So let's jump into first. I think this is a good way to look at the philosophical side of things. Like when we actually have to touch animals. And like what's your thought on that? Like people think, oh yeah, touching animals, what does that mean? Petting? Does that mean cutting nails? Does it mean grabbing a collar in an emergency or something like that? So thoughts on that? Just Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So obviously in behavior, we all know this word. It depends. Uh context, situation, learning history, relationship. Like, is that your dog? Is this your friend's dog? Are you a trainer and this is the first time meeting that dog? Am I a vet, right? So I think we have to consider all of those things. And when I think of touch, thankfully we're hearing more and more about consent. And obviously, that's a very uh broad word that can mean so much to different people. But with a lot of my caregivers, for example, we talk about what consent looks like and identifying that's the other thing, like, right? We know the foundation of consent is animal, like dog approaches you with loose, relaxed body language, maybe leans in, you pet them once or twice, super short strokes in an area they like, which tends to be neck and shoulders, but but then like we start with that, and then we can identify what their specific types of touch, right? So I'll talk about this when I'm using touch as like a positive distraction during handling in a vet situation, or also if I'm talking to a caregiver touching their dog, like this may be too in-depth, but I'm like two fingers, mild pressure, soft pressure, one long stroke. And the thing is, if this is your dog, you know what type of touch they like, or we work together to help them because they do know their dog, they just need a little bit of guidance about what consent looks like, how to read body language. And within a short period of time, the caregiver's like, he's asking for more love than he ever did. And I was like, consent's really cool. Uh, they learn that, you know, I only get touched when I am asked. This is amazing. And sometimes that means unfamiliar, or sometimes that means don't touch them, right? Like I've, as a management plan, I have told caregivers, like, I'm like, this, I know this is hard. This is let's experiment. This is only for seven days. I don't want you to touch your dog at all. And then we work up to consent, depending on what behavior concerns I'm seeing. And it's so common that within like the fifth day, they're like, he's asking for touch more than I've ever seen. And all they did was just stop touching their dog.
SPEAKER_02So let's dive into that term for just a moment. Uh, consent. That's a hot topic sometimes. Because the argument is, can dogs really give consent or what does that look like? So for you, for you, how do you define that? And like, what does it look like when you when and you just mentioned like the caregiver taking some time off to allow the dog some space? So you can start to see signs of, yeah, I do want to be touched, or I'm asking for this situation. So, what does it look like for you?
SPEAKER_00I think more so in the context of a caregiver and their dog, a lot of that, like we do identify, I know most of our, most of us as traders do see consent as that loose, relaxed body language, choosing to approach, lean in of some sort, um, and then remaining like loose and relaxed. But also, you have to realize a lot of my caseload, that dog's baseline is anxious. So they're asking for consent may look a little their face may be a little tense, but that's that animal's baseline. And we're gonna work together to identify what level of anxiety they have. And I'll work with the vet team to possibly add in analytics and things like that. But that's the other thing. It's not always like loose, bouncy body language, and I want to be pet like this. And then also we have to consider underlying medical things, right? I see a lot of underlying pain and GI disease and things like that. And I've worked with tons of caregivers where we've worked together to identify these things. I've worked with their vet team, and then they're like, this is a different dog. He's asking for love like he did when he was a year old. So I think for me, consent is identifying the dog's preferences, which can look different for everyone. Also, what's their relationship like with the people in the home? Because that can look very different, right? I work with lots of families and everyone is well-intentioned, but sometimes people's relationship with that, like the partner, their relationships like this with the dog, the other person, especially when I'm dealing with behavioral issues, may have some resentment or because they're frustrated and their concept of that relationship may be different. So I'm gonna have them not touch the dog at all. But also, I don't think I think the biggest thing is assessing that dog's baseline, identifying what that is, understanding what the relationship is. Because it's not always like, I feel safe, I feel trusted, like that's just the facts of the matter. And then identifying what type of touch that dog likes and also adapting, right? Like the way I cut my dog's nails now, even versus a year ago, is very different because, and of course, I've worked on tons of cooperative care, but within the last year, I have a 14-year-old beautiful super senior with just arthritis all over her. Uh, and her pain is really well managed through multimodal treatments, but I've readapted based on those changes to the way I cut her nails. So that's the other thing. Me, I'm all about teaching caregivers how to understand their dogs and also understand the touch they like is not gonna always look the same because I think some of us have that idea. Like there's I'm a hugger, Mike knows. I'm like the most extroverted person ever. But I'll be honest, there are days, there's few of them, where I don't want you to touch me or hug me, even the people that I love. And use these analogies when you're talking to caregivers because it really helps they can relate and it helps them understand. And then again, we're not shaming or judging, and they're having more empathy for their dog because caregivers want to interact with their dogs in a way that they enjoy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I and I love that you started with it depends. And you can hear me say that a lot, right? You said that before. And because what you're describing there is there's so many variables to consider. And I think what's happened in our industry is that word consent gets used a lot, but it has almost a universal footprint or meaning of what it should look like. And people think, oh yeah, it's that loose wiggly dog coming up. But then let's say it is we have a bunch of get 10 dogs, they're all loose and wiggly coming up and nudging the hand kind of thing. But then it's not just in that moment, it might be in that moment that it looks like what we're defining as consent, but it can shift. And so it depends on the the caregivers or in the in the relationship, as you mentioned, then being able to, let's say a dog's in pain and they're like, I'm in pain here, and I'm just looking for a little comfort that might be just a little warmth next to you. That's why I'm coming over, not actually for you to touch me. So it's like evaluating for that in real time. It's a skill, right? And it's skill, skill we try to teach.
SPEAKER_00Right. It's a it's the same with handling from a vet med perspective, right? We have to have a critical thinking approach to interacting with animals, right? And you're gonna adapt. And we have to consider all those things like baseline, relationship. In that moment, what is happening, right? Like maybe you've had construction at your house for two weeks. And to be fair, you're over threshold and your sleep is affected as a human. So physiologically, you're a little more irritated. Um, and you're not even aware of it. And your dog's like, I'm not gonna ask for pets. Like, I don't want, or I'm I'm concerned about you because animals, dogs are amazing. And like you said, they want to be closer to you, but then that interaction may be negative for them because the caregivers are. I mean, it's I think it's fun because I love that you said that like consent is this term that we know this in behavior, yet the industry, and that's going to happen because obviously, you know, social media and things like that, um, with these short snippets
What Consent Looks Like In Real Life
SPEAKER_00about stuff, but consent isn't a black and white, like there's no one size fits all approach. But sometimes the way we hear it talked about in the industry, literally it is, and we're like, that's not how it works. Like I work with a few dogs who don't enjoy their shoulders being touched, right? But as a foundation, we want to start with what we know the most about dogs and utilize that information to set up everyone for success. But then again, you're gonna adapt by understanding the body language and what that dog is communicating and that dog's baseline. I mean, I don't think we consider baselines enough, honestly. I don't think we even work to identify what that, and most of the animals I work with baseline is like mine, a little anxious. Um, and that's okay. Because then also, as we're implementing consent-based interactions, helping that caregiver better understand their dog and advocate for their dog, and then behavior modification and all that stuff, we can also better see what is working for that animal if we understand their baseline too. So I think baseline is such a huge part of it. And then, of course, assessing body language and all the things we've already talked about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I agree. I I I think um, since we've talked about consent a little bit and to find that a bit, I we should, for the sake of the show, uh, I'm gonna throw some terms at you, and if you can give me your like 30-second version or definition.
SPEAKER_00All right, let's go.
SPEAKER_02So um, cooperative care.
SPEAKER_00So cooperative care is essentially where the animal cooperates with their care. So this may be giving us quite a few uh yes signals because consent behaviors, right? We can we could go down some rabbit holes uh with what those are. So usually what I do is I look for body language, like they choose to approach, they're soft and relaxed, they're looking at me if uh they have a good relationship with me. Like these are the things, all those right yes button type behaviors, like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I think cooperative care is essentially the animal playing a part in their care. But I also, because I'm a vet tech and I work with a lot of animals where, hey, this is the first time I'm gonna meet you and we need to draw blood, or even like you mentioned grooming. I work with quite a few cats and dogs who need medical grooms. Like matting hurts. Um, so we have to do the best we can. It's somewhat of a need, right? If we're gonna talk about wants versus need, I personally think every interaction you have with an animal, there can be some collaborative, cooperative uh communication. To me, it's like a conversation between me and the dog. And I don't think everyone feels that way, and that's okay. But I'll be honest, like I adapt my approach and touch and handling based on what that dog is giving me, and I'm doing the best I can to allow them some choice in it. That might be like giving them a shake off for 10 seconds before I give that vaccine. Or there's so many ways where I can watch their body language and get some collaborative interactions, I feel like.
SPEAKER_02Talk about uh when you talk about communication, we can look at behaviors offered as communication. So, like gin rest behavior, start on behaviors, those kind of things. Talk us through that and how that fits into cooperative care.
SPEAKER_00So, of course, we have our go-to consent behaviors, which are things that we work with with our dog. Like my dog's consent behavior is her laying on her side, which isn't a consent behavior for many dogs, but she already offered that all the time. And she has severe arthritis, and although it's well managed, she's going to be more comfortable laying on her side than standing up. And then by her approaching me, like to me, that's a consent behavior. Her laying down with her head down. Those are two more consent behaviors that, and those we did practice. Like she was already offering it. So I was like, why would I I'm gonna capture this and build up on this? Uh, because I hot take, I don't really use chin rest a lot. I think they're great, of course, but I prefer a body station because it's just a lot more easier for green trainers and for which tend to be veterinary professionals and most of the caregivers I work with.
SPEAKER_02Um real quick, what's body station for the for the listeners that are?
SPEAKER_00Oh, so essentially, like we're using, thank you, Mike. Uh, we're using a body target, right? So we know the nose target. So essentially a stationing behavior, like I choose to go to my mat or whatever that may be. Like with cats, I utilize cat trees a lot. I identify what area they already like and build up on that, which has also been really helpful.
SPEAKER_02So just to recap, cooperative care for you is consent happening in the overall picture. So compared consent-based behaviors, but more of a collaborative theme where you're reading the dog, you're communicating well, and then dogs offering behaviors as part of the communication repertoire. Okay, so next term. Um, low stress handling.
SPEAKER_00So low stress handling is something that was created from Sophia Yin. Unfortunately, she's not with us anymore, and she's honestly a big part of who I am today. Um, I had the pleasure of meeting her quite a long time ago, and that actually is what kind of led me down this path of my life is behavior uh and my life is handling. And essentially it's just more, it's progressed to more environmental things, but mostly what it is is like actual hands-on animal techniques to keep everyone safe but minimize fear and stress. So it's started with Sophia Yin, and she's amazing. And I know they are actively working towards, because even though she's a genius and she was amazing and I she inspires me every day. Obviously, something from 20 years ago is going to be outdated now, right? So I know that they've actively been working on updating the courses, and I know they recently updated the book to just go over environmental, all the whole picture versus just hands-on animal. Yeah. But that's really what that was and is.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Okay, good. And next on the list of uh this one is not necessarily a term, it's an organization, but fear-free. So the fear-free movement and fear-free veterinary care. Um, just explain to the listeners that may not have heard of yet.
SPEAKER_00So fear-free is an organization that essentially is dedicated to uh addressing the physical well-being, but also the emotional well-being of the animals we care for. So they do have resources for groomers and trainers, and a big part of it is towards veterinary medicine. And how that works is they have online modules along with people like me, speakers, right? Things like that. But mostly it's online webinars and information and certifications you can get that go over some handling foundations, uh, like considered approach, the environment. Because we all know now, I always say hands-on animal is like one tiny, tiny little part of interacting with an animal, even in a Vat Med situation, right? There's so many other parts to that, but that's where fear free comes in.
SPEAKER_02Okay, excellent. So wanted to just get those um defined so that because we're probably using them throughout the show.
SPEAKER_00And isn't it surprising everybody that there's only a few organizations dedicated to handling animals when it's like the biggest part of our job? What? There should be way more.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Because everyone's like competition. I'm like, what? There should be tons more. Thankfully, with cats, we have the international cat care and the handling guidelines. But even there, those are just three orcs. And I'm like, there should be tons. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, we've come a long way in in a couple decades, but yeah, I remember 20 years ago, there's like nothing except for Sophia.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So there's hardly anything out there. So okay. Uh let's let's slide into the conversation on the human side of the equation first, which is the impact or toll it takes on a guardian that has a dog or cat that struggles with being touched or handled or husbandry. So any kind of care. So they they they kind of avoid vet visits or they they're worried about getting bitten themselves because they're trying to trim a nail or clean some ears. And in your experience, when you're when you're working with the client side of things or or patients, uh, and you're what are some of the things we as professionals or or really as humans should consider that the that those guardians are going through?
SPEAKER_00That's a really good question because again, most likely due to my caseload, this is something that I come across a lot. And I'll be honest, like, not only in the moment, right? We have a safety risk, we have human animal bond breaking, we have the caregiver feeling like they can't take care of their dog, right? But also I deal with a lot of caregivers who are like, what if there's an emergency? And I can't, my dog can't be handled at a veterinarian clinic. And they're like, I understand they're catastrophizing appropriately because
Cooperative Care And Yes Signals
SPEAKER_00that is terrifying. I mean, my animals all love the vet. And obviously, I have a very specific skill set. And I'll be honest with everybody, and I love my vet teams. They're amazing. I get stressed. I get very stressed. And I have all of this background. Uh, so I can't imagine. Honestly, I can't express what they're going through, but I have caregivers, it's something they think about every day. Like they're losing sleep over it. And then also, I work with a lot of cats and dogs where, for example, they may not be able to be medicated, whether it's oral meds or injections. And you have to realize this is affecting that animal's quality of life. Like it's heavy. It's really heavy because also that caregiver may have to make decisions that they don't want to, right? Because we all want to talk about quality of life and we want that animal to be comfortable. And if we can't treat it, the most humane thing to do, thankfully, it's a hard thing. But I tell my caregivers all the time like the last gift we give them is letting them go before, right? Like we don't have that gift in human medicine. I know it's complex, but we have that gift with animals. But these are honestly, that's another big thing that got me into behavior. Like the vet does an awesome job at diagnosing what's going on. And then the caregiver can't give the meds. And caregivers are like, I have to clean their ears. I have to give them their meds. And they're not wrong. But then there's also, I think, a misunderstanding and miscommunication where the caregivers, like, like, for example, I used to ask, can you give meds? And I don't do that anymore. I ask, what does giving medication look like? Because I tell when I'm lecturing, I'm like, friends, can they give meds? Yes. And it might consist of them getting bit and hurt and because they that animal needs that medication. So we have to ask, what do giving those medications look like? And then that caregiver feels listened to. I'm actually getting helpful data where I can start with a plan for them to give their animals. Like, hey, just like we do management, right? With severe behavior issues, I do management because by the time the caregivers referred to me, the animal needs the meds. We're not doing preventative, I would love that. I love all of you who are starting that. Please keep doing that. But real talk, like the animal needs this care now. So I'm like, we're gonna do the best we can. Here's management to make this the least stressful and safe for everyone. And then with each interaction, it's less stressful. And the animal, in many cases, actually starts to be a huge willing participant in that. Man, it's a really heavy thing for caregivers, like to have to deal with, or they dread the idea of going to the vet. So then we're not seeing them as often, which that animal's more likely to suffer, so is that caregiver. The when we do finally see them, it's going to be more expensive. I mean, it really it's it's a lot. Uh it it yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you uh so do you advocate for the dog's guardian to be in the exam room when procedures are being done for routine kind of stuff, or is it or separately? And the follow-up question is what do your conversations look like? Because if you you're a Tabitha and you can get the dog in the room, you're gonna do your magical thing and handling and be like, boom, it's gonna be done. However, you have the guardian there, and you've got to do all this. So you're working with the dog or cat and you're also talking to the guardian, and maybe they're super nervous, and maybe they're feeding into that, or the dog's like, Why is mom or dad so nervous about this and that kind of thing? So talk us through that. Uh first, because some people are for and against the guardian going in the waiting room or the the exam room, and then and then if they are in the exam room, super nervous, super worried. Right. Like, how could that negative? What do you do like with thinking about the apathetic side of things as well?
SPEAKER_00So So I I personally think for cats and dogs, and this isn't just my experience, we actually have some research to back this up as well, which isn't surprising, but research is helpful. That the animals do better with their caregivers present, right? And you have to realize as veterinary professionals, like take them to the back is something that we've been trained to do. But let's be honest, like when I lecture to vet professionals, I'm like, your kid's coming in for a routine vaccine, the doctor just says we're gonna take them to the back. All of the parents cringe. And I'm like, we're already kind of starting off on the wrong foot because narratives are created, we're breaking trust, there's lack of transparency. Like, not that anyone's meaning to do that. This is just what's happening. And then also, it's actually not very time efficient for vet staff because a lot of people are like, Tabitha, handling as a skill takes time. I'm like, actually, once you know it, it saves a lot of time. Like taking the animal back and forth and what? That wastes our time. Cause we are unfortunately, there's a lot we have to do and we are limited with our time. So I do prefer animals stay with the caregiver. And like you mentioned, like obviously surgery, x-rays, like that isn't like we can't have you do that for obvious reasons. Um, but I also meet the needs of the caregivers. Like, for example, let's say I'm going to draw blood. I may say, hey, we're gonna draw his blood right now, because I communicate everything I'm doing to the my colleague I'm with and to the caregivers in the room, which is also why I think I have a lot less issues with caregivers when I'm like, we're gonna have to stop because it's not coming out of nowhere. I've literally been communicating what I'm seeing and like needs versus wants and things like that throughout. But I might say, we're gonna draw his blood right now. Are you comfortable with blood? Um, and it takes me two seconds. And I'll be honest, one in 150 people might say no. Yeah. And usually I have them step out and like get some coffee. Or in some cases, depending, I may take the dog to a closet or there's always room, everybody, uh, to a quiet place, whatever that may be. It might be another exam room, but our exam rooms might be full. So I always consider the caregiver. And sometimes I hear the dog does a lot better with the caregiver. And I'll be honest, I'm not saying that that there's never, never, right? But in many cases, when I hear that and I'm actually there assessing the body language, the dog is actually frozen in fear. Like it's there's a misunderstanding of body language that may be misinterpreted as I'm frozen. So I'm more able to be able to do things, but it might be misunderstood as relaxed or I mean tolerant. That word's cringe, right? For us. So I think there tends to be a lack of understanding. But then also for all my behavior professionals out here, you have to realize, you know, in VetMed, we have to deal with a lot of really hard stuff every single day. And we aren't taught handling as a skill, just like in animal welfare or any field of animals, to be fair. So to then say, do everything in front of the caregiver, draw the blood to that is really nerve-wracking. Um, so we have to understand that. And I empathize with our professionals and they say, hey, I recognize that. We're gonna work together. Like my first experience being with the caregivers were back in the young Tabitha days when I was in GP, was euthanasias. Like, thankfully, we would never, right? If we could, we would never take them to treatment. I had a little bathroom caddy and I had everything I needed, and I had to place that IV catheter in and young Tabitha, because I'm extroverted, would all I would just always communicate what I was doing. Like, they're really dehydrated, so we may not hit the vein immediately. Like, and I I'm applying lidocaine, this is why. Like I just talked through everything I was doing and shared what the dog was feeling or the cat. And I saw that when I'm communicating things, if I miss, because also I'm a human, the caregiver is understanding versus let's say I'm a human, I miss the vein. Also, we're dealing with the D all this stuff, but I didn't communicate that. I can see where the caregiver is like, she just poked my dog twice, right? So I know it's lame, but that communication thing is such a big deal. But long story short, I know that's a very long answer. I think we have to have empathy for veterinary professionals because it can be really scary. And also, unfortunately,
Low Stress Handling And Fear-Free Care
SPEAKER_00some of us have a negative learning history with things. Um, we're also not in environments that are conducive to learning a lot. Like toxicity, a lot of these things, it's a bummer, but truly, it's the same in animal welfare. It's really toxic. And even if you don't hit the vein on the first time with your colleagues, I'm not saying it's okay, but they're being judged. Like, like fun facts, because I share all my stuff. I used to have chronically clammy hands, like chronic at this one clinic I worked at, uh, to the point where I went to see a dermatologist. My hands are gonna start sweating because I said it now. Ha! Bodies are cool. Um, like they would drip. That's how, and I could still draw blood and place catheters. And I went to a dermatologist and they wanted me to do injections. And then I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna lean into the sweaty thing. I'm not getting Botox in my hands. Uh, but after I left that clinic, it stopped. But I remember being told, like, you better get this catheter, or you know, and a lot of it, like we have to also consider, you know, we're actually punished a lot for not being perfect, which is not okay. Yeah. But that's a lot of our learning history, which adds, I think, to some of that fear.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, it's gotta be incredibly like nerve-wracking and stressful. Like you're here, you are. Let's say it's a dog, a bitey dog, right? It's like, okay, now you have to keep yourself safe. You have to communicate with the client, you gotta get this, you know, uh, Ivy in or whatever it is you're doing. Yeah, like that is tremendous. Now, what if you have a client that's also like, he might bite you? Uh, what are you doing? Oh, I don't know if he likes that. Like, and they're just constantly like so that's a really good point.
SPEAKER_00Because we have the caregiver, like, I love like, because again, they're coming from a good place. And in that case, I'm gonna adapt to my human learners as well. And I'm gonna say, like, I'm gonna reinforce them. Like, thank you so much for sharing your concern. I know you're looking out for me and your dog. Because how many caregivers say they're gonna bite you, right? I hear that with cats all the time. But also, their learning history with their cat. Um, it does that does seem to happen. So then I just share what I'm doing and I'm like if he starts to become more stressed, like we have safety tools, we're gonna work, like this is why we're doing this. Um, it's really normal for him to be stressed. I know he doesn't feel well. I don't feel well. Like I normalize it's it is normal to growl because you feel like crap, you know, or also fear, stress, all of this stuff. Yeah. So, because I think let's be honest, as trainers, we know this. Caregivers are like also punished for empathizing with their dog. Not in vet men, I mean, like we all hear that silly myth that's still so prevalent, like punish the growl, like the things that are out there in society that caregivers are being exposed to, like they feel shame when their animal shows normal emotion. So that's where you can use that. And that immediately, honestly, decreases that. First off, you're advocating, you're empathizing, which is important, but also that caregiver's body language immediately starts to soften because they immediately are like, my dog's scared, I'm a bad caregiver. Like, literally, this is what they're feeling. So by you addressing and normalizing those things, being like, like, as soon as they come in, I'll say, I know he's not feeling well. So he might show more stress than he usually like, those are things I just commonly say now. Like I have animal, like when my animals, they're FAS, that's the fear body language score. They're like zero, which is like green. But when they're not feeling well, like I have a I have blood work uh videos, I I do a lot of videos of me handling, and I'm like, this is the same dog or this is the same cat. And I in the one that animals like FAS two or three, in the one it's FAS zero, and I always ask in my lectures, what do you think was different? And no one ever answers, which is why it's so great that we are teaching. And I'm like, one was a sick, one was a wellness. So I think that transparency, but also if it's really, really hard for the caregiver, this doesn't tend to happen. But again, I think our jobs are hard. I also know how to read human body language. And I may advocate for the human and say, I know this is a lot. You're so worried about your baby. I know a lot of us don't even want to watch our children get vaccinated. So, how about you go have a cup of coffee outside? You could trust that, like you get the, you feel the vibe and you adapt to your human and animal that you're working with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's amazing. That's a lot to handle. A lot of things juggling you're juggling at the same time. Um, yeah, it's very impressive. Um, I want to talk about sort of this concept of resiliency and stress next, but uh let's take a little short break to hear a word from our sponsors, and we'll be right back.
Sponsor Break
SPEAKER_02What if there was a way to help both shelter animals and veterans struggling with emotional trauma by engineering a powerful, near-instantaneous bond between them? That's exactly what Pets for Vets, a nonprofit focused on positive reinforcement for animals and veterans, is designed to do. Pets for Vets' unique program model creates a super bond, which is a carefully crafted, professionally trained version of love at first sight that leads to a lasting connection between a veteran and a shelter animal. Because each animal is evaluated and selected to match the veteran's specific personality, lifestyle, and emotional needs, the result is a reciprocal, healing relationship. The organization, founded by Clarissa Black, is expanding its network of highly skilled, well-qualified positive reinforcement trainers. It offers an incredibly rewarding opportunity for trainers who grow professionally, enjoy flexible schedules, receive stipends, and can live anywhere in the United States. Pets for Vets is also seeking
Caregiver Stress And Medical Reality
SPEAKER_02new collaborations with animal shelters and rescue organizations across the US to help us find the right dogs. To learn more or get involved, visit petsforvets.com. Alright, guys, I'm back here with Tabitha Crucera, and we are talking about all things when you have to actually touch dogs or cats. And we're gonna jump into this concept of resiliency next. So and and at the time of this recording, it is March of 2026, but we've I've seen some chatter on social media lately in discussions in different groups about uh what we're getting dogs prepared for things like nail trims and ear cleaning and having their collar grabbed and things like that. And uh there's some opinions that we should take a very uh structured consent-based approach, meaning we're going to pair like a collar touch with treats and gradually go up to that same thing with paw handling, which totally makes sense when you think about the concept of it. And then you have other schools of thought. Let's like combine that with uh more stress inoculation is another kind of term I hear. So like let's let's touch the this let's and we can talk about puppies or adult dogs, but this is more commonly uh maybe understood in the puppy world as like, okay, let's let's hold a paw and just hold it briefly so the puppy gets used to a human holding their paw. And we're not gonna pair it necessarily with food. We're just going to uh develop like this so the dog builds resiliency to those things and understanding, like, okay, sometimes my paw is gonna be touched, sometimes my collar's gonna be grabbed, sometimes I might be picked up or something like that. And you do it at a level where it's not completely stressing the dog out, of course, or doing anything we feel is detrimental. So what are your thoughts on that coming from your lens of what you've seen, what your you've your observations of what people have tried early on, and then as well as your training experience.
SPEAKER_00I know it's a big question, but yeah, and this is in my right, I don't speak for other people. I think, like you said, that could look a lot of different ways. Like, let's say we're dealing with a puppy in their key socialization period, and and during this time, which is why we all love to get puppies at this age, because that's not commonly the case for me or for many of my clients. Um, in many cases, we don't need to necessarily even at that time pair it with, like, we don't need to do classical conditioning. We could just touch their paw now, with that in mind, they should have minimal to no signs of stress. And then essentially what we're doing is habituating them somewhat. Like, I'm wearing this watch and nothing bad or good happened. The watch was a neutral stimulus to begin with, and I'm cool with the watch now. Kind of how most of us put collars on dogs. Like nothing good or bad happens, and then they habituate or the TV being on, whatever that is, versus I'm going to touch their paw, they lip-lick, turn their head, and maybe pull their paw out, and I'm gonna continue to touch their paw. From my perspective, I think, especially, I mean, always, but right during that key socialization period, I don't necessarily think you're building up resilience in with that. To me, you're actually giving them a negative experience. Like they gave multiple cues to stop and you didn't. And what we know about behavior is I don't then get used, like, right? That word tolerant makes me cringe because I hear the cat is tolerant of touching. And I was like, let's unpack that. Um, because also the way I see that word used is they're right. And I always tell caregivers, like, if I was tolerant of my partner hugging me, we got to unpack some stuff. Um, like, you know what I mean? Like, we gotta unpack some stuff. So I don't necessarily agree with that because we know that that negative experience affects them long term versus we're touching them, we're putting a collar on, there's minimal to no signs of stress. And like you said, we're not like putting a collar on, touching all four paws while we're passing the puppy, because that's also way too much. Uh, so in that structured fashion. But I also recognize everybody, you can expose the dog to everything in a like in a gradual fashion, having them exhibit minimal to no signs of stress. But what happens is, right, which is great, is if they have enough of those somewhat consent-based positive interactions with touch, then they generalize it to more things. So that would be my take on that.
SPEAKER_02Would you say there's because there's a a good movement in a way, in the sense of we want to be as kind as possible in our procedures and our interactions. So we try to think if I'm doing this, is there a less invasive approach to this? So again, paw touching or a dog getting habituated to a uh paw being grabbed or touched. When I say grabbed, just with mild. No, I totally get right. Yeah, you know, versus this, okay, we're not even gonna do that because that's too much. We should look for the train the puppy to be like, here's my paw, and it's like it's a hand target or just a paw to a hand kind of thing. Uh how do you feel about that if we uh take that approach to everything in the puppy's life? Like, okay, it's always your choice, we're gonna make it as completely stress-free as possible throughout all the things. How much do you think that affects things? And then on the other side, well it's two separate questions, two big separate questions. So you have that component. I think you you know where I'm going with that. It's like this approach, which I I like. I just find sometimes that there could be problematic if the puppy suddenly now experiences, wait, somebody just grabbed my paw, like the kid that hasn't practiced these things, you know, that just happens to be visiting. Uh, versus now you have the other side of the coin of people like, oh yeah, we should touch paws, we should grab paws. But they don't recognize that this the subtle signs or even more the more overt signs, like this puppy has pain or in the paw, we didn't recognize that, or this puppy is has genetic side components that predisposition towards more fear or difficulty with handling. So uh two kind of opposite questions. Yeah, but what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_00And I think with puppies or cats, dogs, with humids, um reality, right? Real talk, everything can't be a hundred percent concept-based. Like truly a hundred percent dog is in. Um just like I have to do things that are unpleasant. Now, I'm gonna do everything in my power, like you mentioned, to manage and decrease stress and also or prevent it. And my bigger thing is how can I set this dog up? Like I tell my clients all the time, fair and stress exists, pain exists, anxiety exists. So, my job is to, yes, of course, management. We want to minimize and work towards changing their emotional state, but also we can't do that with like caregivers don't have control. Of the weather, like um so I think the biggest thing where I come in is I want to give them tools to handle the real life, the world. Fun fact, there's tons of punishers in the environment, which is why we don't need to use them for training. Like there, I always joke with my clients, like, don't you worry, like there's tons of stressors and punishment in the environment, right? I always say, like, my mom's awesome, but I have a lot of stress. Um, because caregivers immediately like they're so kind, and that immediately like they giggle and then they may tell me a personal story uh about their parents, which is fun. But I think the biggest thing we should be focusing on is of course, like having those positive interactions, like those positive socialization experiences. Because we know we have less research on cats, of course. Uh, but we know, even based on research with dogs, a negative socialization experience is as bad as a lack of. So, like these are things we need to consider, but things are gonna happen. So we're gonna do our best to set them up for success. So they do generalize those things. And also by doing that, it helps them like stress happens, but they return to baseline quicker, right? So I'm bigger about doing our best to set them up for success in the world that is what we
Should Guardians Stay In Room
SPEAKER_00live in and giving them tools to emotionally regulate. Like, how much better would humans be if we had were taught those tools? I know them now. Therapy's cool. I'm 41. It took a while. Uh, but as kids and teenagers, like, we aren't given those tools. But for example, I use a lot of human analogies. As a teenager, your brain isn't fully formed as a human. You're feeling all the things, right? So I think I love the concept, but it's not reality. Yeah. If that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's when that conversation comes up in that way, I it brings some controversy or conflict into the discussions because they're like, oh, wait, so you're saying you shouldn't be kind to dogs? And there's a lot of extrapolations out of it. So that's not what we're saying here, okay? Right. Um, yeah. Uh so speaking of that, let's talk about cross what's the word, specialist or cross-special like like so I'm talking about like trainers, vets, people in the shelter world. And sometimes it's you see trainers criticizing like a veterinary video or something like that, because we have our way in our mind of what cooperative care might look like, or consent-based training, or why don't you just countercondition the dog and you know, don't go into that vet clinic until the dog is conditioned over X amount of sessions, and which is there's nothing wrong with that on the the actual thought process. But where do you see the disconnects typically in between the professions and what we can do to change that? Because that's when you think about what you were saying earlier, just how much of a toll that can take, because let's face it, all of us in our professions with animals have some pressure coming from somewhere. We all have enough stressors in this in our separate worlds in this whole animal care industry, but but it can be especially uh damaging, I think, when we start getting criticisms that it especially when it from a comes from a place of someone not being in that world, right? So right.
SPEAKER_00I'm unique in the way that I work in all three of those worlds, and it's actually been really walk in shoes, right? Like classic thing. Um, so I'm very lucky that to be fair, I have a lot more insight, like true insight. And I think everyone means well, but I do sometimes see people say things about like veterinary professionals, for example, and they are unaware. And I mean, I'm not about like you shouldn't be shaming or judging anyone online. Like, come on, what are we doing? Uh, but uh I'll see comments, right? And one, we're behavior professionals, you know, you don't have the context, truly. A video, even you don't know everything that's happening. You don't know that animal's background, you don't know. So these are things that we have to take with like a grain of salt. But also we need to consider like when it comes to handling in in general, which I consider environment approach, hands-on animal, like communication, who's doing what first. Like, there's a a lot that goes into it. As veterinary professionals, as animal welfare professionals, and in some cases trainers, because to be fair, many trainers aren't taught handling skills or leash handling skills, right? Those are things that we have to go above and beyond and teach ourselves. But we aren't handling isn't treated as a skill in the animal world. Uh, like I was taught restraint, which is an appropriate term for what I was taught. Like, hold them close to you if I'm a dog, right? And if they move, you hold them tighter. Scruff and stretch a cat.
SPEAKER_02And you're talking obviously in the veterinary sense.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yes, in the veterinary world. Thank you. Um, and in the animal welfare world when it comes to vet care or even when they're being medicated. That's literally what we were taught to do, which is outdated and not great. But like, I think we have to have empathy and understand that I was set up to fail. Many of us are literally set up to fail. Thankfully, as Mike said, positive, right? Our field has progressed quite a lot. But also we have to recognize in human med, we're finally, which I wish it wasn't that way, but we we're finally starting to understand that mental health is health and we should be addressing the mental well-being and physical well-being. So sometimes I actually think the vet world's a little more ahead of the game than human medicine. Um, so we have to consider like what was normal 20 years ago and where we are today, but also our foundations, what we were, we were set up to fail. We weren't taught handling as a skill. Like I approach handling from a critical thinking standpoint and literally am considering everything. But that was be I've taught myself that through my huge background with behavior and experience. And another thing is like as a trainer, you all have management. You would never just go into a house, right? You would, even if the caregiver didn't mention like aggressive behavior, because caregivers may we all have had that caregiver who thinks that that's just the way their dog is. They just bite them, like they don't have it as a chief complaint. But it's been really interesting to me because you have to realize in FedMed, my management was a muzzle that I was never really taught how to use. And I used to be thrown into extreme situations where there we had to do things to help this animal. And now I have all these management tools. Like I use protected content, I get really creative with handling fair aggressive animals, but literally we don't have that. So not only are we not set up to succeed, and again, it's getting better, but in vet tech schools, for example, I know what we have to check off to get to graduate. Like I used to teach at a tech school, and this was a very long time ago, and there was cat muzzles on there. I'm like, you see this, we don't use it. And I checked it off. Uh, and I explained the why. But cat muzzles everyone, not dog. I love basket muzzles. Um, but you have to understand, like, there's a it's comp it's complex. Um, so we need to be kind to each other and also recognize like the way I break it down is there's needs versus wants, which is a term that many have heard, but that's going to literally look different for every human and every animal. So let's say I have a dog who is acute, has acute GI upset. So they're vomiting with a frequency of like three times a day for two days. They're having looser stools and they have a lack of appetite and not as interactive with their caregivers. Like when that animal comes in, we need, I would say a need just off the top of my head would be, and I would work with the, we would talk with the vet, we would come up with a plan together. A need would be exam. And then based on exam findings, plus or minus blood work, radiographs, the radiographs might be first, and then like a nail trim. And how needs versus wants work are, we prioritize, right? And then I'm communicating with the caregiver. And to be fair, I tell the caregiver the plan because also they need the treatment plan, they need to understand the cost and what's involved, but also the why, which may change based on what the caregiver can do. And then if that animal is getting significantly stressed throughout, we don't do the nail trim, but I've been communicating throughout. And then we come up with a, I'm not just like, we're not going to do this today, that's it. I have a plan for the future and resources for them. But the idea that, yes, in a perfect world, I would CCC DS everything. But like I was telling Mike before this, like we were chatting, you can't CCC DS truly to a poke. Like you can't. You're not gonna like simulate like pain and fear exist, you know? Um, and then we have animals who have nausea. Like you have to realize we have a lot going against it. Yes, they come in. Like when I go to the hospital, thankfully, my more recent, because as a kid, I was probably held down for vaccines based on my fear level with needles in the context of hospitals, but not that bad or tattoos. Uh, but as an adult, I've had positive experience. But when I go into a hospital, I my heart rate goes up, my blood pressure goes up, I feel nauseous. And that's from I know the nauseous from an experience I had when I was 14. So I've been able to identify where it came from, but like these things also exist. So I think we just have to, it's heavy. Um, and also I think trainers, you need to be kind to yourselves too. So something I commonly see is I love cooperative care. And like I mentioned, my definition of it's a little weird because I think every interaction you have with a human and an animal, you can make a positive difference. And there's lots of things that you can do, humans too, to either there, no matter what, if I'm working with a FAS, like a super fear aggressive dog who's dealing with severe acute pain, there are still things in that moment, multiple things I could do to either prevent, decrease, or at minimum manage fear, stress, and pain. So sometimes I see trainers have this very unrealistic expectation of what cooperative care is, and then they beat themselves up and they set themselves up to fail. I'm like, yeah, your dog, you know, you may not get a chin rest for 15 minutes while we're, you know, just some of the things, the things that I see, because I've done it with myself and I'm a human. I shouldn't. I'm if I was talking to N of you, I would be like, hey, everybody. Uh, but we all do it. So I think we have to realize like the way I medicate my cat when he's having a pink rutis flare up, versus they both actually like you. I have videos of my social media. Many people would be like, this is still amazing. But I'm like, he's stressed in the one. Yeah. And I don't like that and I suck. Uh, like these are the things I feel, but I'm also like big pitcher.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He
Building Resilience Without Flooding
SPEAKER_00he chose to stay there. I use petting as a pot, like a positive distraction, but also as a reinforcer because they're two separate things, but I utilize them. And then he returned to baseline. Like he didn't even really go over threshold. So to me, it's like a win versus what I would usually do, where he literally chooses to come, like, and I used his treatment station, which is like a station we've already built up. But again, like he has a lot of money in the bank from positive experiences, where there are like he's having a pink or titus flare-up. Yes, I'm treating him with pain, of course, but like it sucks. It's going to like be uncomfortable. But because he has so much positive money in the bank, I just take out a few pennies or dimes. And that's where I think cooperative care, that's me really simplifying where I feel the benefits are cooperative care or even the resilience things we were talking about. Like, how can I teach them tools to handle real like stressors exist, fear exists? Yes. Like you can't tell that client, never see a human being. Like, we can't, that's not, and if you are, we need to unpack that because that's not a realistic expectation. And also from a caregiver, like the way I teach my caregivers to teach cooperative care is also very practical and very simple. And there's a reason for that because it works. Uh, because I can't expect a caregiver to spend, not that I don't, caregivers don't care, but like we are all busy. Like this is just a reality. So I'm like, a treatment station is the easiest thing. Can you find a place your animal? This is me simplifying it, find a place your animal already likes. Like, let's build on that. And once to three times a day, just walk over there and give them a treat.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00By the seventh day, they're choosing to go there. And yes, but like literally, this is so easy. Every caregiver has five seconds. And then I have buy-in, they get excitement, and then we can build up on that. But even that simple exercise can make a huge difference in the future. So, versus, you know, I deal with dogs who have severe trauma, many of you do too, right? Who have severe trauma to nail trims. I'm not gonna C C DS them everybody. It's not realistic. It's gonna take five years. Like I work with dogs who just see nail trimmers on the ground 50 feet away, and they are FAS5. That is a dog I'm I'm gonna, we're gonna sedate, depending on what the medical, like how long their nails are initially. We're gonna make that sedation as low stress as possible. And then I'm gonna work towards helping them file their own nails, or we're gonna get creative. But I'm gonna be honest, yeah. I I'm not gonna choose, like, this is where we adapt our teaching to, right? I could CCC DS that dog, but that's gonna take real talk, like years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And there's other options, like and it requires just such a dedicated program from the from the client. Yes. So yeah, you know, just backing up there, you had mentioned, you know, we are setting, we're setting ourselves up for failure. We've been set up for failing and a lot of things because handling isn't taught. When we say handling, we're talking about cosmetry touching, yeah, those kind of things. So yeah, it's not taught to trainers mostly. I mean, some programs are touching upon it, but nothing in depth. Uh, and same in the veterinary in the sense it's different, but it's it's so interesting you said that because then what's happened, I think, in the last maybe five to ten years is now there's an understanding we need to learn about this and what little we do learn, we apply the rules of perfection that social media brings into the picture and our own training perfection. So, like if we see any signs of stress, or the dog not holding that chin rest for X amount of time, or not holding that station, or you know, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and we put pressure, and more importantly, we put this un undeserved pressure on on our professional colleagues that might be working in other spaces. So that's uh kind of been the focus of this year for me, is just you know, bringing different different pieces of this industry to talk more. And that's of course the focus of the Canis conference, which you're speaking at and giving a workshop. So just a quick, quick 30 second. What are you um presenting on at Canis, the workshop, and then your presentation, if you remember, because I know you have like 30 things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you're so funny. I think I do. Uh so I'm presenting uh handling fear aggressive animals workshop, which is really exciting. Because, like I said, many of us aren't given management tools, and I've gotten the fun thing is I've gotten really creative because we're thrown into sit, just like you are as trainers, we are thrown into situations. Like I know I work with high most of my caseload are very fearful animals who've had a lot of negative experiences, and just to be frank, trauma. So we have to get creative and utilize different things. So I'm gonna talk a lot about that. And then I'm also talking about I mentioned like a reinforcer is different than a positive distraction, but I love a positive distraction. And food is one of those things, but old moly, I could think of a hundred different others that I am always like, and I think people don't realize. And even when we're using food, there is a technique. See, it's once you learn it, it's great, but there is a technique to even how we feed, what we're feeding, what we're feeding on. So I'm also lecturing about that.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. And you can go to canisconference.com, hint, hint, wink, wink, if you want to learn more about that. All right, just to wrap up the show, another big picture question, but because and I'm dying to ask you this because you have the different industries you're in and you have like a unique viewpoint, but the issue of dogs and cats having a tough time in a lot of these situations, whether it's at home being handled by their guardians or in the vet clinic or at the groomers. If you could change the world and say, okay, we're going to so we can talk about, of course, you want to you if it'd be a great place if all dogs came from certain genetics and and you know, and then they're raised as puppies to handle all this, but we know that's not happening anytime soon. So we've got that wish list, which I'm sure all trainers and veterinari are are mostly agreeing upon, anyways. But your wish list for like the industry and collaboration to to address this at a much larger scale and and make the most impactful changes in for for the animals in our care. So uh what can we what do you see? What do you envision as like if you could wave your magic wand and be like, this is what I'd like to see for the industry, talking more, uh learning these things, but uh really on a big scale.
SPEAKER_00Bigger picture.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think because even like I work with a lot of behavior organizations and I've done a lot of like BSL legislation and things, and we all know it's all about breaking it down into small goals. And although this is big picture, if you were like Tabitha, what is one thing? To me, is helping people like if all of us could truly understand, because again, in I teach about body language and I know we all feel like we're good at it. Everybody. Um, in vetmed, for example, we're literally not taught anything uh about very little. It's more this dog is uh growling at me and he's red.
Bridging Trainers, Vets, Shelters
SPEAKER_00Like if we're like, but we're not taught about yellow, so how can we prevent them from going red? I think we all feel like we're a little more confident in body language than we are. So I think obviously, if caregivers were more aware of body language too, like they're also be less likely for certain things from a training standpoint to happen to them as well, right? Like, so I think body language is the biggest thing. And then understanding that there's no such thing as a one size fits all approach because it there isn't. And I think I always tell vet, I'm like, I know we have to do everything, but we're all nerds. And the reason we started in Vet Med is because we love hard things and uh critical thinking, like we're gonna treat this disease differently based on, and I just want people to approach handling like that from a critical thinking standpoint and just recognizing that handling is a skill. It's not something that you can watch eight-hour module on and be the best. Like I'm still learning, no matter what, all the time. I'm just really lucky that I'm thrown into really challenging situations. So I've gotten better over time and I have a foundation. So I think body language, there's no such thing as a one size fits all approach. Understanding handling is a skill. And from a collaborative standpoint for both parties, uh that genuinely, I know it's corny to say, but we the majority of us all want what's best for the animal and the human. And that it's important to work together. And I I hear a lot from both parties that they don't feel listened to. But I also think it's really important to recognize your scope of practice. That's probably the best way for me to say it, simply. Uh, because I see a lot of people overstepping their scope of practice, and it's unethical. Like, truly, it's it's pretty concerning. And a lot of that results in those are the people that I tend to also see doing a lot of shaming and judging, which is an interesting trend. And this is among like animal welfare positive training professionals, evidence-based, right? So I think that that's a big thing too. Like, none of us are good at everything. That's silly. Like, as a veterinary technician, although I'm boarded, I don't diagnose. Like, that is not within my scope of practice. It would be unethical for me to do that. And that doesn't mean I'm not awesome and that I can't help. As a trainer, your input is amazing. You get to work with that animal in the home and that caregiver and have longer with them. You may have more rapport than them because that client may only be seeing the vet once a year, right? So even though that vet seems amazing, they're getting 30, 45 minutes, right, once a year. So caregivers will most likely tell you things that they don't mention that you can then share. You also can all those body language and behavioral some like things that you have the privilege of seeing and recognizing, sharing that with the vet, like you play a crucial part, but we're not diagnosing or, you know, saying like do this and stop that pain med, or don't like that is as I'm sure many of you are on the same, you know, but just like with vets. If they aren't familiar with behavior, like they refer to oncologists for cancer, right? Cardiologists for heart disease. And I always say when I lecture, hey everybody, y'all are amazing. We can't do everything. Refer for behavior. And then I tell them how to, because also it's a lot harder because it's not a regulated field. So um, and when it comes to veterinarians, as far as their scope of practice, if they or veterinary technicians, right? Because sometimes I'll see a veterinary professional who means really well, and they're doing C C C D S to veterinary visits, but they don't truly understand operate conditioning or those behavior modification learning theory processes. So that's kind of out of their scope of practice, right? So this is for both parties. We all need to recognize what how we can contribute. And then also in some cases, like if you notice a weakness that is in your field within your scope of practice, right? I'm going to recognize that weakness and then go to smarter people. I know so many smart people, it's so great, and learn from them, right? So I think we just all have to take our egos aside just a small amount. And I know everyone says that. Like it's like set boundaries. Like it's such a cliche thing we hear. It is work. Like I feel ego coming on sometimes. And then thankfully I've recognized those patterns. And I'm like, girl, you need to check yourself. Now, to be fair, I would never feel an ego and be like, I'm gonna post on social media. What? Like, because again, I have emotional regulation tools and emotional like things that I like, but 10 years ago, I would be over thresholds and maybe send an email.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know? So also be kind to yourself and recognize that too.
SPEAKER_02Oh, all really, really good thoughts. And so much of it, I agree with, like, especially the critical thought aspect. So uh, Tabitha, thank you so much. Um, I'm gonna ask you to put your ego hat on for a moment and just tell everybody where they can find you and learn more about you.
SPEAKER_00Uh, so you can find me at chirrupsandchatter.com as well as chirps and chatter on Facebook, Instagram, and I hope to put more videos on YouTube. Y'all know owning a business and doing all the things. Yeah. And then I also have an educational platform called small dash pause, P A W S dot C A. That's gonna have some really exciting mentorship classes and yes, lots of handling stuff. I'm super stoked about it. It's just they take a long time to build.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I'm hoping to have there's some courses available now, but I'm hoping to have some of those more in-depth mentorship ones towards the end of the year.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. Thank you so much. This has been awesome.
Final Takeaways And Where To Learn
SPEAKER_02And I look forward to seeing you at the Canis Conference.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for having me and for spreading the word about all the lovely things and bringing us together.
SPEAKER_02It's always a pleasure speaking with Tabitha about a topic that affects so many animals and the people caring for them every day. One of the biggest takeaways from this conversation is that handling is a skill, not just something we do automatically. It requires observation, critical thinking, empathy, and the ability to adapt to the individual animal in front of us. Whether we're talking about husbandry, veteriness, grooming, or everyday touch at home, the more we understand body language, stress, consent, and collaboration, the better equipped we are to support both welfare and safety. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit aggressivedog.com. Whether you're a professional or dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program of its kind, to expert-led webinars, informative articles, and the Canis Conference happening this October in Schaumburg, Illinois, with both in-person and virtual options. And don't forget, Tabitha will be giving a workshop and presenting at Canis. Thanks for listening in, and as always, stay well, my friends.
SPEAKER_00What?