Two Big Egos in a Small Car
A passionately laid back overview of the arts and culture scene in York and Harrogate with observations on journalism. This podcast is hosted by Charles Hutchinson and Graham Chalmers and regular guests.
Two Big Egos in a Small Car
Episode 152: Lisbon, Portugal and its Music Scene; New Alan Ayckbourn and John Godber Plays; Why Five Star Lead Singer is now Living in Harrogate
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Graham recounts his adventures in Portugal after a trip to Lisbon: taking the temperature of the music scene in Europe's oldest and hottest city as he celebrates his 20th wedding anniversary.
Charles reviews Alan Ayckbourn’s latest play in Scarborough, Constant Companions, his 89th, as he foresees human-android relationships of the near future, and John Godber’s touring premiere of Do I Love You?, a hymn to Northern Soul and celebration of working-class culture refracted through the experiences of three young drive-thru workers discovering the devotional music's power to uplift.
After interviewing Graham Parker of The Rumour, ahead of his Old Woollen gig in Farsley, and Five Star lead singer Denise Pearson, who now lives in Harrogate, Graham contrasts music stars of the 1970s and '80s.
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Hello.
SPEAKER_00Good evening, Anthony, and good evening, Graham.
SPEAKER_01Hi, Charles. I'd like to say something to you in my new uh expert language of Portuguese. And here it is. I'd like to welcome everybody to dos grandes egos em um caro piqueno. Which is basically two large egos and a small car in Portuguese. I'm sure people love it.
SPEAKER_03Let's just love it.
SPEAKER_00I'm glad you clarified that one that it was Lisbon in Portugal and not Lisbon in Ireland, where all you would have needed to do was an Irish accent in English.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's quite and dangerous.
SPEAKER_00Well it is. But you describe um Lisbon in Portugal as Europe's oldest and hottest city. Are you talking temperatures here or trend, Inus?
SPEAKER_01Well, not really. I mean, it's is Europe one of Western Europe's oldest cities, and it was very hot, certainly compared to Britain. But I don't think technically is Europe's hottest city in terms of the temperature. Although it was, I was told when I was there last week that it was 40 only two weeks ago, which would have been quite unbearable. But it's more that it's quite a sort of like colourful, lively, it's it's it's got a hot pulse, it's not a slow city, it's it's not like tense either. It's it's very relaxed but very very lively at the same time.
SPEAKER_00And part of that liveliness, Graham, you did a kind of temperature test on the arts world of Lisbon, and in particular the musical influences, and uh taking the temperature, testing the temperature, if you like, of the music scene in in Portugal and in and in particular in Lisbon. Portugal famous for Fardo singers, Fado, Fado singers.
SPEAKER_01Fado, yeah, Fado, yeah. Yeah, I can't see amount. I I didn't go there a huge fan of Fado, but uh I I did experience a bit of it in uh in an unusual situation, which was good. We got the cheapest boat you could get because Lisbon's obviously on a on a river, and we got the cheapest boat you could get, and it was a open wooden boat from more than 100 years ago that used to be used to ferry goods across the river before they built I think it was the the April 24th bridge, and uh April 25th actually, yeah. So we're on that boat open to the elements, you know, really old fashioned because it was cheap, because all the other fancy Dan boats were more expensive, and uh it was great because you had the wind in your hair, the the water was splashing over the side, you were completely at one with the elements, and the guide was playing fado music on the boat, and it sounded very much like a Portuguese version of uh Elizabeth Fraser singing this Mortal Coil's song to the siren. And so when you were outdoors in that environment with the landscape with the blue skies and the open waters, it was quite emotional. I had to actually watch it and burst into tears. But but when I heard it in a bar, when I heard it in a bar, I just thought, oh, what's this cheesy stuff? But uh it certainly worked on a boat.
SPEAKER_00Who's Portugal's most famous musician?
SPEAKER_01I do not know that whatsoever, because Portugal is uh obviously I've been to a lot of European cities and various places in the world over the decades, and when you go to somewhere like Amsterdam or Rekke, you can tell there's a big British music influence, uh, not only by the record shops and what records they've got they've got on display, but what music is played in bars. So in Rekovik in Amsterdam, there's quite a lot of British music played, sometimes classic 60s, 70s rock, but quite often more recent indie music. But uh but Portugal wasn't one of those places. Lisbon isn't one of those places that the music that was played most of all in bars and coming out of cars, etc., was sort of Latin flavoured jazz. Latin flavoured jazz obviously is pretty pretty big because I mean Lisbon's got great roots in Africa and Islamic culture, and so it's got it's got it's a much much more earthy form of music and a bit less Western European. But I did discover that if you go to crafty beer bars, of which there are quite a few now in Lisbon, uh they actually play more British and American sort of rock indie music. So if you go to Crafty Corner, which is which is a brilliant craft beer bar in Lisbon, you'll hear a lot of tracks by by the police and by the kinks and the Beatles, and and if you go to LX Factory, which is a reconverted industrial area, which is now full of crafty bars and cafes and street food and restaurants, well if you go to the rooftop bar there, which is a great view overlooking the river and the city itself, th they again play mainly British and American classic rock and indie. So there are some spots where Western rock music that we love so much comes into play. But uh the interesting thing about LX Factory is that the jazz thing comes out again in the LX Factory because one of the units in the old industrial era that's been converted, which is a real mecca for tourists, is called Jazz Jazz Messengers, and it's been there since 1980s, a record shop, obviously specializing in jazz, and that's a phenomenally great record shop. If you want jazz on vinyl, and there's a little bit of rock there as well, uh it's absolutely fantastic. And you it's the sort of place where Giles Peterson, the BBC six music jazz and world music DJ has definitely, definitely been. You could just tell when you walked in that he's he's definitely been there. It's his sort of cool joint.
SPEAKER_00Not entirely my scene, but no, I've looked up some famous Portuguese singers. They've come up with 50, but I guess uh Jau Gilbeth Tom, 1931 to 2019.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you've heard of it.
SPEAKER_00Uh Carmen Miranda, 1909 to 1955. Yes. Uh Maritza, who played in Harrogate at one festival, I remember. I went I went to see her at uh the Harrogate Festival. Uh Nelly Fatardo, she qualifies. And see if I can come up with anyone else um that's familiar to us all. Uh well, that's four so far that are so I would say are familiar names all around. Well, maybe maybe Marita's. I think what this discussion is not a great list. We could always include Sam the Kid, no idea who he is. He can go for the fifth. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but what this discussion reveals is is our our ignorance in Britain about Portugal in general, yes, and Portuguese music specifically, because uh, like like a lot of things, uh the British know quite a lot about certain countries and not very much about the space of the planet. So that's part of the reason we decided to go to Lisbon because hadn't been there before, didn't know a lot about it, what was like, and it's certainly worth a trip.
SPEAKER_00I mean it's often suggested that rather than going to Spain on a for a holiday, go to go to Portugal because it is less discovered, it is less well known, and in many ways, therefore, it's still in some ways a journey of discovery that has yet to be discovered by an awful lot of people.
SPEAKER_01Well, the Great Book's got huge amounts of tourists go there, go from all around the world, not mainly Britain. And we try to change the city.
SPEAKER_00Germany, Germany, Germany as well, obviously.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not every every every nation of the world goes to Lisbon. It's got so many links to its own history to different parts of the world, specifically South America and Africa and Asia, a lot of Asian links. But but the great thing about it is it's a completely natural city. It's lived in, it's covered in graffiti, it's colourful streets, it's cobblestones, it's the mix of Moorish influences and European influences, and it's not preserved in Aspic. It's not like a Disney fied version of a great European capital. It's it's still leaving and living and breathing, and it's a bit disheveled. But it's still got all it's got a huge number of Michelin star restaurants, it's got some great art galleries of modern art, it's got all the things that you'd want as a tourist, but it hasn't, and even though there's a lot of tourists around, and you're surrounded by tourists, it hasn't got that feel of like you you've gone somewhere fake. It it feels like Lisbon belongs to Lisbon, even though it's full of foreigners, it's still a lot of things.
SPEAKER_00So that that is the perfect that's the perfect match, isn't it? I mean, that's always a debating point in New York. How much is it a city for tourists, and how much is it a city uh for the locals, and how actually that uh balance of that equation arguably has been changing uh gradually towards tourism uh over the the city itself, and one of the consequences of that have been a noticeable diminution in the quality of the of the shops in the city, but by comparison restaurants, pubs, bars, concerts, theatre, all that side of it, which applies both to locals and in particular to draw in people from elsewhere, that side of the city goes from strength to strength. And that's an interesting thing. That that balance between the two, how much you play to the home economy, how much you play to the away economy, how much by going for one are you in some ways making it to the detriment of what's traditional and wonderful about a city like York, which of course is a city steeped in its its uh its history, and for those who live there, you can't you can't ignore that. Yorkminster stands in front of you if ever you need to work out where you are in the city. Look look for York Minster's advice given to tourists, of course, but it equally applies in a different way to the the the hold that it has on the city overall. But in in Lisbon, did you feel there's the challenge? Is it the city that you feel you could live in, or are you very much just want to be there as a tourist?
SPEAKER_01I really liked it. I felt really at home. It's quite even though it's got a buzz about it, it's also quite relaxing. It's all very natural natural, and the people were were you know almost wholly friendly and and outgoing. It's it's it's got it's got it seemed to have the buzz of of like a major city in in England or Scotland, but but very little attention, not not any tension. So yeah, I could imagine living there, but it's so hot. As a pale-faced Scot, there's absolutely no way I I could live there for years then because uh it would physically kill me. I mean, I I I got sunburned after after a day.
SPEAKER_03Did you really?
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, we walked 12 miles the first day because we we always like to do things on foot, but it turns out that Lisbon is has got so many things you need to go and see, you really can't do the whole thing in foot. You have to use the trams and the buses, and to lesser degree the uh the metro. It's just not possible on foot, it's just too the distances and the the hills. It's it's built on seven hills, so it's it's not so great.
SPEAKER_00That matches uh Rome and Sheffield.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I th I think I don't want to know what Sheffield, I like Sheffield, but I th I think Lisbon's got uh more character that uh history than Sheffield.
SPEAKER_00Last last question, and this is not an intrusive one about how um the 20th wedding anniversary went romantically, but is it a romantic city?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it can be, yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's there's lots of great sites, lots of great viewpoints, lots of great restaurants and cafes, and yeah, it works on that level, yeah, for sure. I recommend you when you first arrive, you think, good grief, this is a bit scruffy, graffiti everywhere, yeah, a bit disheveled. But it gets under your skin after a couple of days, and you start to like get into the Lisbon groove, and then you actually like the fact it's a bit dishevelled and a bit natural, and it's full of like really colourful graffiti. It feels like a living, breathing place, it doesn't feel like going to some you know, tourist destination, painted painted for tourists tourists, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Not a Disney town, basically.
SPEAKER_01No, it's definitely definitely not painted for tourists.
SPEAKER_00No, so recommended, obviously. Anyone hasn't been to Lisbon, and Graham's recommending it after a first visit there. So Graham, um, selfishly, I want to discuss um a play a playwright uh that you always think that um you know I'm in love with Alan Akeborne, but I'm not his I'm in love with his work.
SPEAKER_01I think you have shares in his plays, that's what I think.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I'm going to, if you will excuse me, discuss Yorkshire's, and he is, of course, an adopted Yorkshireman, um, a Londoner and educated at Hayebrew, but he's lived in Scarborough for so so many years, and so many of the plays have started in Scarborough. And then John Godbur, son of a of a of a mining community, and has been a playwright who's up into his plays of totaling more than 70. In Alan's case, uh, more than now, 89, heading for his 90th play. And their plays opened on the same night, their latest plays opened on the night same night. Really? John's uh yes, it's it opened in Wakefield, uh in John's case called Do I Love You, a play about Northern Soul. And uh Alan Akeborne's play Constant Companions is is actually having a constant venue, and that is the Stephen Joseph Theatre at first, uh, until October the 7th, and then we'll be doing a short tour of two venues after that, neither of which are in Yorkshire from my memory. John's tour, uh loads of chances to see it even into next year, uh, across uh lots of different Yorkshire venues. So rather than giving all those venues out, just to say, just look on the website for that challenge. No, exactly. But don't want to be hugely helpful in that way. So you have Britain's most performed living playwright and second most performed living playwright, both of whom based here in Yorkshire. And I I the thing that I enjoy, and though this is not a love-in for either of the writers, but the thing that I enjoy is having seen so many plays by both of them over the years, there is that kind of backstop position of appreciating the fact that they are still coming up with new work that's interesting. Uh, and State of the Nation has been a thing that both of have written about uh in recent plays. John now in this piece, um, after a run of State of the Rotten Nation plays, Do I Love You is largely in many ways a celebration of something that's still there. We see a lot of things that have gone, and John makes the point where's where have youth clubs gone? Where have Sunday where's Sunday Football Leagues gone? Where have working men's clubs gone? But by contrast, Northern Soul clubs are still thriving. And you can go to a Northern Soul Club night at Cleethorpe's for something like I think if if my memory's right from the play, it's something like three quid for eight hours of dancing. Now that represents value to any Yorkshireman, absolutely it does.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so yeah, well, Harrigate has DJ nights in Harrigate and uh across Yorkshire, as you've said already. But Harrogate has a DJ night, which is Northern Soul, probably about once a month. And the recently finished proms, the Albert Hall for Albert Hall in London. It was even a northern soul night led by uh Stuart McConey. So Northern Soul just refuses to die.
SPEAKER_00So John John's opinion on that was that they're gentrified Northern Soul. He he is a proper Northern Soul disciple from his own youth. He bought he bought Northern Soul records, proper you know, platters on on vinyl, and it was his great love as a young man to go. He said he was a pretty good dancer in his time. He says he can't now because of his knees. So, what this is, it's a it's a kind of hymn of love to Northern Soul, but it's a combination of an older man, not in any way nostalgic about it, because what he does is he refracts it through three young people who have been, in the case of two of them, uh well, what one chose not to go to college um and and and instead was looking after a grandmother. Um, one had studied psychology, um, and they've ended up after COVID working instead at what he would call, I think John he didn't say that it was um a familiar named brand of selling you um fried chicken, but essentially he he would call it um yeah a fried chicken portal, a drive-thru. And the three of them work together there. So that's the monotony of life that they have. A northern soul, which they discover, rather like uh Celestine's daughter, Emma, suddenly they discovered Otis Redding as if uh Redding was a brand new singer. But the point there was it was a new joy for Emma to discover, and it's very much like that for the three young northerners who uh start going to northern soul clubs and enjoying the dancing, and one of them played by John's daughter.
SPEAKER_01Thing about northern soul, though, is that it is all old music, no one makes new northern soul.
SPEAKER_00No, they don't, and that's the now that's what's interesting, is it is they are keeping the faith and not changing the faith.
SPEAKER_01So it's it's still religious fault.
SPEAKER_00Well, now John would say Graham, that's a really good point. It's not in it's not you know by coincidence called keeping the faith. It's not by coincidence I call John a disciple of Northern Soul, because it is it is an act of faith, and actually, this this character played by Martha uh God but John's daughter, who did train in dancing as uh um in when she was about 16 um in Leeds and went on to study then at at Lipper. And so she says, I'm not gonna do dancing, I'm not gonna dance, I'm just gonna watch until I absolutely get it. Not just the moves, but the feeling of it. And so that's a very much part of it that John. He looks at a world that's become too fake, and we know there's loads of fakery around. And I think that's the other thing he likes about it. It was a working class, it was a working class cult right from the start. Northern Soul Records, yes, they came into London, but Northerners went down, bought the records in London, took them back up to the industrial cities, played them in this places of we all know, of course, of Wigan, Blackpool, we've mentioned Cleethorpe's, Hull, Scarborough, Leeds, you name it, they all had northern soul clubs. And for John, it's a thing that has maintained its authenticity. And I like the fact that he triumphs, he trumps that as being the really, really important thing. Where has authenticity gone? Where's working class traditional culture gone? And so much is fakery now, uh in the what we we have. In the Premier League is a fake world, if you like. It's not it's not football as we knew it. There's an example, I think, another one of where faith in what you had in football has frankly gone the way it's presented. And he's looking at Norman Soul as being a really, really rare example of something that is still faithful.
SPEAKER_01The reason's no culture is because people can live their lives individually on their phones and at home. So there's no real reason why they have to like get involved with joint things in general and communal things, because they they've already got everything they need at the fingertips.
SPEAKER_00But they haven't, Graham. That's what's really interesting. It's at the fingertips, but it's not look the connection when we went to the gig the other night together, that wouldn't have worked just watching that gig on a phone. You need to be there, and dancing is a holy that that is something that that you're taking part in it, you totally commit to it, you swept through eight hours of dancing, and you enjoy watching others and sharing other people's enjoyment in the acts of dancing. I I think a world where people just watch things rather than taking part and feeling that sense of community is not where we want to go.
SPEAKER_01I agree, but when I go to a gig, I like to not know what's coming. But when you go to northern soul night, just in as in the days of raves in the 1990s, yeah, and I went to a couple, it's all very regimented, everybody does the same thing over and over again, ad infinitum. And you you can't really do your own thing in the sense that if if you were too outlandish, you it would cause a problem. If you if you turn up at Northern Soul Knight dressed as a red Indian or Native American Indian if you want to use the correct name, and and leap around doing a strange dance from an Adamant video from the early 1980s, I'm fairly sure the other Northern Seoul fans who would get a bit annoyed. So, although I'm not against Northern Soul, it's perfectly fine. And I'm and it's great that it's survived and it's great that it engenders such passion. It's it's not totally for me because it's it's a bit like a bit messianic, a bit messianic, but uh I mean too religious, too much of a cult. Well, yeah, but you when you and me go to gigs, even if it's a band that we love, if if we don't like a particular song, we don't say that song's brilliant because it's a band we love. That's true. That song's not so good. And Northern Soul's not like that, and neither is is is club music. You love the whole thing, and you do and you act react to the whole thing in the same way every single time. It's it's a guaranteed that the the night out at Northern Soul or any other any of the dance clubs is is a is you know what's coming, you know exactly what you're gonna get. And so I can't buy into that. But I'm not knocking anybody else who does buy into it, it's totally fine.
SPEAKER_00So do I love you, which is the title of the play, you're not so sure, you're not committed to that level of love, Graham, clearly.
SPEAKER_01No, well it's a is it a question. Mark, do I love you? Is there a question mark in the title?
SPEAKER_00Well, indeed, but the it's if you remember the song, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I know that. Yeah, indeed, I do. Yeah, but those brackets do not appear in the title of the play, do they? In Gondra's play.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01Well, there you go.
SPEAKER_00I would say I would say that. I would say that it is a hymn of love. I mean, the question marks there to try to draw you into the question. He answers it in the affirmative. Absolutely. He also does wrap in some state of the nation as well. Of course, he does because he looks he looks at that in a zero-house contract working environment, the monotony of uh drive-through work, and uh he's still someone who feels frustration um at uh stunted opportunities for young people. Um, but I I I I thought um within its celebration of Northern Soul, and I I know what you mean. And if you're not a disciple of it, I I I can understand that, but I thought it worked very well within that. Now that's that's a kind of looking back to the that sounds like a Godbrook.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but this sounds like a Godbrook, which is nothing in common state on whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00So, I mean, John's plays invariably break down the fourth wall straight away. You have they actually tell you who they're gonna play, they tell you how they're gonna play it, they introduce themselves, and John always has that. It's kind of minimum, minimum of fuss over the staging, maximum uh reliance on characterization and on dialogue that fizzes, has sometimes a combative element to it, has a physical theatre element to it. And yes, if you like, there's a formulaic element to it, but the subject matters and the humour, the wit that he shows in his way, that's I kind of call it a stubborn northern wit in many ways, it's a defiant wit. Um, and he gets characters, he gets male and female characters, as does, of course, Aikborn write brilliantly of uh of the female characters he writes. That play looked at the past and refracted it through uh the present. Uh, in the case of the new play from Godburr is not a slow burner.
SPEAKER_01Godbur's a bit punchy.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01So how does that compare to Akeborn? Because I'm sure he's a bit more slow burner.
SPEAKER_00Alan's work, uh, the humor always is grows darker as a play goes on. That's been something that's come more and more into work. Also, actually, it's come into John's work as well. But over the years with with Alan, um, this the the humor, which I mean, you do sit there at times, uh, just almost like a hyena in laughter at how funny Alan's pieces are. But there is a darkness there as well. What he's looking at in this play is the world of artificial intelligence, of uh automaton maids, um, of sex of robotic sex toys, and it's set in a soon a soon to come time. And the constant companions set in say again, Graham. Uh near future set in the near future. So yeah, soon to soon to come time. Now, the clever thing with Eightborn, of course, is yes, it is set in the future time, but actually, it's always reflecting on how we are now. So the human side of the story, our for our foibles, our failings, uh our familiar contrariness, all come through in the human characters who are desperate for love and to express desire. And that is the thing that is strongest in the play. For all the fact that underneath it all is an artificially intelligent world that is beginning to turn, and without wanting to ruin the play and give it give it away, um, it is that thing of you know, at what point might the robots take over? And you know, Eggborne foresees a future where that we could be on the cusp at some point of that happening, and it's not I mean is we won't be the first writer to suggest that, but it's done with a humor, but at the same time, he's looking at a bleak future for humanity because our failings are likely to keep repeating and denuding us and denuding us and denuding us to the point of self-destruction in which which which is possible. I mean, you've only got to look at the same thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it I think that's too too clear-cut. I think it'd be more like the development of the digital world and mobile phones and yeah, in the sense that uh, you know, it's led to lots of bad things, but it's led to lots of things that people love. So I th I think with with the development of AI, the the the the great irony will be that it will do all the things that Ape Bourne's warning you about, but I don't think people will mind. People will think the price of things going wrong involving it will be all right because A, they can't do anything about it, and B, they also get something out of it. So if you think back to the second Blade Runner film, which came out a few years back with Ryan Gosling, he has sex with the hologram. And and in in the in in in the whole film, and he doesn't he doesn't mind it because I think he actually falls in love with the hologram. But in the entire film, the the the hologram woman that he's like almost his girlfriend, is actually the most human character in the film. The the humans themselves are all quite cold, but this hologram is actually quite quite quite emotional. So I think I think it it's it's it's more like the AI people won't mind, people accept all this is just the way it's it's gonna go.
SPEAKER_00Eggborne's uh AI characters are more cynical than that. They're deceptive, they uh pull the rug.
SPEAKER_01It's like what's it?
SPEAKER_00I d I do think I do think it's the uh I don't want to give it away because that's the key part of the play, really. Their their journey is their journey is one of the things. So is it a good play?
SPEAKER_03Is it a good play?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely it's a good play. It's funny, but it it it's thought-provoking, it has a sense of foreboding about it. Beautifully performed as ever. I mean, Alan picks his casts wonderfully, time after time. Uh, it's a joy to watch, but at the same time, you think, you know, gosh, where is where is our future? I I was gonna make the point that here we have a world where suddenly it's been decided by the Tory government in pursuit of votes that somehow, if you tell people they don't need to have electronic, elect electronic, electric cars by the year 2030, that somehow is going to be a vote winner, irresponsible. And that's the kind of thing when I'm talking about humans a capacity for self-destruction, that ultimately is where we're leading to where we're leading ourselves. So, all for all the development of AI, our our our ability to shoot ourselves in the foot and destroy ourselves, I think is more rampant than ever right now, not just in wars, but actually in how we deal with the bigger problem overall, which is where the hell is this world going? And so a play like this, which is suggesting that our failings are going to ultimately cost us probably our future.
SPEAKER_01I just think it'll be a different future with loads of points that are worse than now, but some points that are better. And I I don't see like AI leading to a landscape that is so bleak that everybody goes, wait a minute, how do we let this happen? I think it'll be just like the digital world's gone. People won't even realize the damage it's doing in general. I mean, some will, but not enough people to actually affect the cur the course course of history. And also it once acorn finally goes to the great theater in the sky, uh, and he is getting on, so had to bring it up. Perhaps there'll be an AI program to produce new Acborne plays.
SPEAKER_00Uh uh who would be remotely surprised at that? I think I mentioned to you that um Howard Allah, the writer of the pantomime for the Rantry players, Cinderella, put to AI uh uh or the what's it called, chat GPT or whatever he put in the challenge, write a slapstick scene. It came back, it came back in three seconds with a slapstick scene that didn't understand how slapstick worked, so it understood that it had to have a custard pie being thrown in the face, but didn't know how to use it to be funny. So there's so I think there's a long way to go now. Graham, um, I was intrigued because I I read this article on Five Star's lead singer now living in Harrogate. At the same time, you've also interviewed not just her, but you've also interviewed So the Rumour Goes, Graham Parker of the The Rumour. Um, and um, so first of all, lead singer of Five Star, how did you discover that she was living in Harrogate and why is she living in Harrogat?
SPEAKER_01Well, the bizarre thing about working for so long for Harrogate advertiser is that all these interviews with uh well-known musicians are just offered to me, which is not not because I'm so hugely respected and you know, so widely known throughout the whole industry, and they all come clamoring to be interviewed by me. It's just part of the the circuit. And I very rarely ask for interviews, they're just given to me on a plate. So the same week at the Harry Garth Tazer, about two weeks ago, I had Graham Parker from the 1970s and 80s, although he's still going strong, and uh Denise Pearson, who was lead singer and a bit of a songwriter for Five Star in the 80s and 90s, offered to me. And so I just said yes. That's the goal, the golden rule. If offered something interesting, just say yes. Yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_00So, Graham, um who of course you share your name with with Graham Parker, but we'll just briefly on Graham. Why, why, why was he being interviewed? Uh, the uh Graham Parker the Rumour playing in Harrigo.
SPEAKER_01He's he's touring his 26th solo album or his 26th official album, rather, studio album, his 26th in his career, since his first album, How Howling Wind in 1976, came out. He's touring that, and the the tour's coming to the old woolen in Farzley near Leeds. Ah, the one that we went to the other day. Which is Monday, September 25th. So having been there recently, uh, when I was asked to do the interview, I said yes, that'll be great. And he he was great, he's 72 now, but he's still as punchy and spiky as he was in the 60s when although his music was a bit sort of like street level Bob Seeker, Bob Seeger meets Bruce Springsteen with a bit of Dylan chopped on top. He's he's he's still retained that uh that spike spiky attitude that that endeared him to punks even uh in the late 70s, even though he wasn't technically coming. He was a good bloke, good bloke to talk to.
SPEAKER_00He uh wrote, I think, probably the best ever song uh about um losing a losing a child, termination of pregnancy. An extraordinary song, and I don't think it's probably that well known. It's a remarkable, remarkable, remarkable song. I do always wonder whether he uh Joe Jackson became successful, Elvis Costello became hugely successful. I always feel that Graham Parker never quite got his just desserts.
SPEAKER_01You're right, he didn't have hit singles, really. He had a few top 40s and top 30s, and his first six albums between 76 and 1980, they were all successful in Britain, although they were more successful in America. He was actually bigger in America. In America, for a time, he was as big as Albus Costello. He was really rated the Americans, and the Americans thought he was great. In fact, they still do, so much so that uh you know the director Joe D'Apto, who made an opt up in 40-year-old Virgin. Well, in 2012, i.e. about 11 years ago, his film This Is 40 starring Paul Rudd was actually inspired by Graham Parker and the Rumor. It was about someone trying to book Graham Parker and the Rumor. And there's a cameo by Graham Parker in the film. And Shadaput is a big director in Hollywood, so for him to be in a major movie inspired by him, he shows you how much the Americans rate Graham Parker. Whereas the British have undervalued Graeme Parker for an awful long time. And I put this point to him, and he said, Well, yeah, I I agree, but what can you do about it? He says, I was having a blast then playing live gigs, and I'm still having a blast now. So all I do is play live gigs and record new songs, and I'm happy. So you can't you can't phase Graeme Parker, he's he's got a true, even though he's not a punk, he's got a true punk spirit.
SPEAKER_00And what about Denise? Because five star as a star does shone brightly and then fizzled out, and always stories within the family, not an unfamiliar story, and I mean being off the scene, it would seem to me for a while. Uh, but you nevertheless have got to uh speak with her. So, what's been happening and why why is she in Harrogate and why did you get to interview her?
SPEAKER_01Well, in fact, Five Star was still big in Britain America, not just in the 80s, but in a large part of the 90s, till it all went a bit skew with sort of because it was it was basically all siblings. Run the band was run by the dad, it was all brothers and sisters, including Denise, who was about the youngest one at the time. I think she was 15 when they had their first tape. Yeah, and so she's still only in her 50s, and it all went a bit wrong and a bit messy. But throughout all that, she's always had a successful solo career. She's been in West End musicals, she's released solo albums, she still tours as five star. And the reason she's in Harrogate is simple, and she's lived in Harrogate about five minutes from the town centre now for the last 18 months, and it's because her her the team that that organizes her tours and her career and her videos are based in Leeds, and her Masseuse loves Harrogate and knows Harrigate. And having lived in California in the 90s and moved back to England in the noughties, Denise was looking for somewhere to move to, and her masseuse said, Well, come to Harrogate, you love it. And so Denise did. And what she really likes about Harrogate, which is quite weird, is she's a real big Christmas person, and she says, The way Harrogate celebrates Christmas with all the lights, with this with the Christmas market and all the attractions. She says, I absolutely love it.
SPEAKER_00So she's come to Harrogate. Is she gonna perform in Harrigat?
SPEAKER_01I don't I don't think so. She's doing a 40th anniversary five-star gig in London at the end of this month. She's got a new single Forever Young, which she's written herself, which is a nice sort of sub Bob Marley upbeat, uplifting reggae type track. She's got a soul album coming out next year, but there's no hint she's gonna be playing Harriet. Although you can't say no, meaning who knows she might do. She might do a charm gig for me, that'd be hilarious.
SPEAKER_00That would be the one, Graham.
SPEAKER_01Charm presents five star, a band who stood for everything that charm was opposed to. No, I mean I I think I don't I think I'd say no to that one.
SPEAKER_00Really? Well, I don't think you'd better tell it to her face. But I mean, there's a story. So, as you say, you know, it was presented to you on a plate to some extent, but um it naturally of course it made us naturally made a story because you do think well, wise Denise ended up living in Harrogate. Turns out loves Christmas. Massurs gives her gives her the tip, but it's a lovely place to live. Um, apart from the Harrogate Christmas market, has she said what else she enjoys about Harrogate?
SPEAKER_01Well, she likes it because it's a beautiful town. Almost anybody who moves to Harrogate moves because it's a beautiful town and it's very civilised. And if you're famous, people don't pest you in the street. People in Harrogate are way, way, way too posh in general to bully in the street if you're famous. That'd be so vulgar.
SPEAKER_00Lots of footballers, of course, live you know have over the years lived in and lived in Harrogate and not been hassled, you're right. It's just not that kind of place, is it?
SPEAKER_01Definitely not, but uh I did apologize to her in the too because I said when when I was younger in the 80s I liked the Smiths and Gs and Merchain and REM. And I used to despise five-star. That's what I said to her on the phone. I said, but uh but look at this, like you know, 40 years later, you're still successful, you still got a great career. You've been nothing but successful the whole time for 40 years. So I think I I'm the one who's in the wrong, not you.
SPEAKER_00And um how did she react to that?
SPEAKER_01She took she took it well, she's a very positive person, and she did admit that she's she's still a bit of a queen. And uh, if you see the photographs promoting her new single, Forever Young, she looks like a better version of Tina Turner and Mad Max.
SPEAKER_00You've been listening to the podcast Two Big Egos in a Small Car. Your hosts were Graham Chalmers and Charles Hutchinson. This was a Baltic sub production.