Two Big Egos in a Small Car
A passionately laid back overview of the arts and culture scene in York and Harrogate with observations on journalism. This podcast is hosted by Charles Hutchinson and Graham Chalmers and regular guests.
Two Big Egos in a Small Car
Episode 120: Interview with York musician Chris Helme on 25th anniversary of The Seahorses' rise...and sudden fall
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In this special extended edition, Charles and Graham interview York musician Chris Helme - co-founder of The Seahorses with Stone Roses guitarist John Squire. As he marks 25 years since their debut, Do It Yourself, by revisiting the songs on a solo acoustic tour, Chris spills the beans on his journey from busker to Glastonbury-playing front man, Hollywood recording sessions with Tony Visconti, a top two album and a parting of the ways brought on by that familiar curse, musical differences.
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And good evening to our very special guest who is currently connecting to audio, but our special guest, just to introduce our special guest, York musician Chris Helm, one of the longstand most longstanding of all York musicians. And uh Chris has had in more recent times solo career, and before that, the yards. And of course, the reason for us getting together this evening is The Seahorses, the band that was formed with John Squire as he left Stone Roses and with fellow York musician Stuart Fletcher, and uh led to the release of an album that made number two in 1997, recorded for Geffen Records in Northern California. And uh that album, Do It Yourself, I think it was called, unless you correct me on that, Graham.
SPEAKER_00Uh huge they were on big rock bands.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Here is the familiar face, no less, of Chris Hill. We can say, Welcome, Chris, and good evening. We're doing we're just on the big build-up for you, so you didn't have to embarrass yourself by hearing us infuse about the past. But just uh the reason for us getting together tonight, uh Graham and Chris, is because um we bumped into Chris uh last year mentioning the 25th anniversary would be falling of the Seahorse's, as it turned out, one and only album. We'll we'll come on to that story as well, of course. Um, and quite rightly Chris pointed that out to us and said, I think it'd be a good one for the podcast. Now, lo and behold, suddenly there was a reminder of this because Chris is playing at the wonderful Pocklington Art Centre on Saturday night, I think it is, Chris, isn't it? Saturday night? That's right, yeah. And this is going to be a solo acoustic uh performance of the songs from uh do it yourself. And it is literally do-it-yourself because obviously you're on your own and it's solo and acoustic. And uh no surprises that John Squire won't be with you. No, of course not.
SPEAKER_02Can't you give him an easy question? Um, why is it, Charles, I can just see the top of your head? Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's a glorious top there. A bit more now.
SPEAKER_00There we are. It's his best feature.
SPEAKER_01There you go. The top, the shiny tour of the dome of the head. So, Chris, I guess um, I mean, you could have ignored the the 25th anniversary of the seahorses. Uh, chat to Tim Hornsby and he would always point out in some in some ways in the past you would not want to push the sort seahorses connection, and I kind of understand that. But actually, you know, 25 years on, it entirely makes sense to to revisit revisit it and think about it. And so let's look at that first, the thought of really looking at it, and we'll then come on to how it all came about in the first place.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, um I wasn't gonna do it this year. I've basically been mixing my album, and I was gonna release my album this year. Um, and then I was doing a project uh with Mark Morris from the Bluetooth and Nigel Clark uh from Dodgy, and that was called MCH. So this year was pretty much plotted out for doing all of that, and then um that didn't happen for one reason or another, and um I basically just thought, well, I put my album on hold because I was gonna dedicate it this year to the MCH project, yeah. And um obviously that didn't happen, so it was like, right, well, I need to do something. So my agent was like, Well, how about doing the 25th anniversary? Because I was gonna do it on a 30th anniversary, but the way the world's been going, I don't think that we might not be here, you know, for the 30th one. So I decided to kind of do it. Um, and I wasn't particularly gonna do that many, but then I was very quite quite reticent to to um to even I don't know. I just thought I'd I'll give it a couple, I'll do a couple of shows and see how it goes. I remember the first one was like a warm-up um in Bridlington Spa, and they've got a new room in Bridlington Spa, and it's kind of like really great acoustics and great sound. And I went there and I'd I'd practised the songs, I'd not played most of the songs for 20 20 odd years, really. Um, some of them I avoided because I knew that they probably might not work um acoustically, but then I thought to myself, well, I've made the others work, so I might as well give this the same treatment. Um, and I did the gig and I thought, well, that that was okay. And then the next one was Stockton about two weeks later, the arc in Stockton. Oh yes, and um, I was quite nervous, it's all seated, it sold out, and um I was thinking, right, okay, I'll have to uh I remember getting there at four o'clock to sound check. Um, and I remember sound checking, and I played through the set about eight times until it was like seven o'clock before the doors, and I stayed on stage for the entire time just to make sure that my muscle memory was there. And then as soon as I was quite really nervous, I remember actually shaking backstage, and I quickly necked a glass of wine, got on stage, and everyone was there, the whole place was packed out. Um, there was such a great crowd in Stockton as well, and they were very welcoming, and then um I got on stage and started chatting, which is something that I do, but I would never have done that in the seahorses, weirdly. Um, and I realized that I had a lot of stories to tell about the songs, so and one of the jokes is that the the album only lasts 14 minutes, but a lot of my gigs are like for an hour and 15 minutes, so I do pad it out with a lot of uh twaddle, and um, but it is interesting really because I mean I get asked a lot of questions about stuff. I mean, I was exceptionally lucky to join the Seahorses. I was uh I was thinking, considering about even packing music in um at one point, and then I went.
SPEAKER_01Chris, why not tell that story? Because it it is uh in its own way, I mean, it's the very definition definition of serendipity in some ways. Um, if I say the words York, busking, and someone heard you, that's the starting point. But let's have your version of what happened.
SPEAKER_02Well, my version, the real version, there's only one version in this. Um, I was basically I had my guitar, I had 20 pounds in my back pocket. Um I wanted to go see my parents who live in Osboldwick, and in the 90s, the bus services weren't great, and the bus our drivers were even worse in the sense that they would totally and honestly would not let you on a bus if you didn't have the exact change or something near it.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_02And I had 20 quid, so I thought, well, they're not gonna break that, so I'll just busk for a little bit. Maybe I think it was 50p to get from centre of town to Osbold Vick. So I think I was like, right, I'll just make 50p. That's all I need to make. And then I'm gonna go off and go see my mum and dad. And um, so I did, and I know I was walking past Woolworths and I realized that I thought, oh, actually, you could busk outside of here, no one's no one busks outside of here. No, so um, it wasn't your usual spot, and um, it was a Sunday afternoon, and a guy called Dennis and his family walked past, uh, he sadly passed away as Dennis Blessing. But if it wasn't for him walking past that day, I would never have known what was to come after, really. And um, yeah, Dennis was like, Oh, uh, you you look like I think he said something like you look the part, you look like you could be a singer in a band. My mate's just left a band, and uh he's he's he's a really big band, and he's setting up this other band. And I just said, Is it John Squire? And he was like, How did he know that? And I was like, Well, York's really small, and Stuart Fletcher's already been asked to join his it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Uh, so I remember him asking for my well, I didn't have a mobile phone or anything then. He asked me if I had a tape. Uh, if you were a busker and you had CDs, it meant that you had too much money and you didn't think the kind of a thing there. Um, and he said I needed to put a tape and get a tape together, and he gave me his telephone number and then put a photograph in there, and I didn't have any photos. So I remember having to go to the train station to go into a photo booth and I'd have my photo taken. And I realized later um that I was one of many people because John had put an advert in the paper in the NME saying that he was looking for a singer and a guitar, uh sorry, a drummer, um, and a bass player, but he'd already found his bass player by this point. Uh I was one of many, but um I think it got to the top of the pile muchly much mainly due to Stu Fletcher kind of putting in a good word for me. And uh, I knew Martin, who was John's guitar tech as well. Yeah, and he'd kind of been to see me a few times and he he put a good word in. And um, so yeah, it go count kind of happened. And but John said that I had a fat neck. I nearly didn't get into the band because my neck was too fat. Fat neck. Yeah, bull necks, I think he called them. Um bald necked Yorkshireman. Uh, and then um I kind of did this two gigs with John. John came to Fibers, I got exceptionally drunk, I was dreadful. I think Tim's got that on video somewhere. That gig. I think I ended up with like two strings left on my acoustic guitar at that point. Uh and then I think I kind of cooked my goose. I was quite annoying that night, I think. I even annoyed myself, which takes some doing, and then um he John came uh to a few other gigs a few weeks later and asked me to play in Manchester. And then um, I remember I was asked to do another gig, which was supporting the girl from the beautiful south, whose name escapes me now, and it was a big gig, I think it was at the Apollo in Manchester.
SPEAKER_01Uh Brianna Corrigan.
SPEAKER_02Maybe the first of their singers. I blocked it out of my mind because I never did the gig. Uh, I remember I was going over Heather Finlay at the time, and we were having an argument, and I turned my back on her and folded my arms, and she pushed me out of the bed, and I landed on my head and got whiplash. On your bull neck, on your on your bullshit on my bull neck, yeah. So I ended up having to uh having to wear a neck brace, which I said to Simon Moran, who was the promoter, and ended up being our manager, I can't do this, gig. I'm so sorry. Um, my girlfriend's pushed me on the bed and bugged my neck up. So I had a neck brace on for like three weeks. Um, so yeah, I didn't do that gig. But then it didn't really matter by this point. I was rehearsing with John anyway, and and it was went to his house in Lancaster, and then we uh me, Stuart, John just did loads and loads of uh working through his songs, and then he heard Blinded by the Sun, which I'd written when I lived in Brighton um the summer before, and then um yeah, he really liked it, and then he asked me if I had any more songs, and I was like, Yeah, I've got a few. Um, so it was very generous of him to actually include my songs on the album, which was really nice. Um, so that was that really, but it's much down to Dennis, really. I remember when the record company were saying, um, you know, do you have you got any stories? When we were doing the press, they wanted to see if I had any interesting stories, like, have I ever been in jail? Do I have a drug hacker? You know, it was Geffen Records, so the but the last fan that they were dealing with was Nirvana.
SPEAKER_01Nirvana, wasn't it? Yes.
SPEAKER_02So I was with their press agent Bryn, and um, I remember just not having any, I was like, um, not really, nothing of interest. I said, I I used to be a busker, and they were like, A busker? What's a busker? And I was like, Well, it it's where you go and play on the streets, like you you have a guitar and you sing songs and people throw money at you. And she was like, Wow, how Dukensian! Like, is it like like Oliver? Like you were street urging and you were baggy, and I was like, No, I wasn't. I was playing music and people were throwing money at me, and I learned how to play more than two chords when I was busking it actually. And anyway, she embellished it and said that John had walked past and seen me and threw me some money, and then it was all this bullshit. And I just remember thinking, Fucking hell, is this how it's gonna go on? Exactly. Um I kind of um yeah, I remember if I get asked every gig for every single gig I've done since. Yeah, the question is, is it true John Squire found you buskin outside of Wallace? And if I had a penny, in fact, I do actually charge a pound now to answer that one. So, you know, that's gonna be a little hard.
SPEAKER_01So I I didn't quite give that version. I I got the confused version in which Martin was the one that um picked up a cassette from you and gave it to John. So I I've got a rubbish version as well, then you see.
SPEAKER_02Well, I kind of I think that Dennis will have passed the tape on to Martin, so yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I guess that was always the version that I spun. Um Graham, question from the top of the file, really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, uh it's great to see Chris again. Uh it's also great to see still you're still looking, you're still looking good, Chris, because I watched the videos for Bloody by the Sun and Love's the Law today, and my god, you look like some sort of like sort of like pre-mubescent version of Jim Morrison, so like really good looking and really young and version of Jim Morrison.
SPEAKER_02My goodness.
SPEAKER_00Well, I can see why you're you've got you got old John Squire, who's now a veteran, playing all these big heavy stubbled Zeppelin blues rock riffs, and that's balanced by you with a sort of like choir boy voice and young good looks, and it makes a great balance when you see it though, so you can understand why it worked at the time.
SPEAKER_02I think I had a bit of body dysmorphia going on back then because I always it must have stuck with me. I was always on a diet all the time. I think we were kind of starved in a way because there was this thing called indie skinny, uh where and because you were gonna be on TV a lot and having your picture taken a lot, um, it was encouraged to basically have one meal a day, and uh I remember being about 10 stone, and um my gene size was 2933 or something, and uh I was I mean I can't I won't even get that past my ankles now but um like tiny from ultrasound then do you remember tiny from ultrasound?
SPEAKER_00Do you remember tiny from ultrasound? Do you remember tiny from ultrasound? Ultrasound, is that a band or was it a was it a yeah? They were nearly big during the Brit Pot boom, and he was famed for actually being properly fat. That was his like his calling.
SPEAKER_02Was he from Leeds?
SPEAKER_00It might have been. Richard Green played guitar from who was from Leeds.
SPEAKER_02I think he was in another band, uh, and he used to just stuff cake and throw cake at the audience. I remember. I think I do know he made it. Yeah, yeah. Uh he was really great, he had a great sense of humor, and then he joined ultrasound and became indie serious, and it was like oh no, this is why you know a hero. Yeah, I do remember him. Um he was a nice guy though. Uh yeah, I met loads of, I saw him at the Spotted Cow, they're really good. Um, yeah, so I kind of yeah, I mean, we had to look the part, I guess. And I used to think that because I was comparing myself with you know the people like Brett Anderson or Jarvis Cocker, who were all like these kind of waif modely type people, and I look dreadful in smart clothes, and they look amazing in smart clothes. You know, um, I look like I just the more I get dressed up, the more like I look like a scalliwagon. It's just weird. So um, yeah, I've kind of got a dodger.
SPEAKER_01That's you, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, probably. So the album I want to clear, you did you did look good in all the photographs and videos, you look good.
SPEAKER_02Well, I wish I looked like that now.
SPEAKER_01So the album um she made the album in uh in uh Northern California, I think that's right.
SPEAKER_02In Hollywood, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in Hollywood. So, how was that as an experience?
SPEAKER_02It was great. Um, I mean, I'd never made an album before. I'd done demos with the band Chuck Spa that I was in before, and then I'd record recorded a uh a bunch of songs with um with Mark Atkinson actually in in his studio, and then I did some stuff with uh Red Submarine, which was um Andy Woss, who wants Gate for Music now, and he recorded me. Um, and all of these were from buskin, really. I think um you'd see me busking them like what I did. So that was the extent of recording for me. I didn't understand what a producer was. Um I couldn't believe how expensive studios were. Um, and then people told me the history of you know, microphones and all that, and as boringly enough, as years go by, I've ended up becoming a bit of a kind of gear freak when it comes to studio stuff, and I've got far more microphones that I than I care to mention now. But it it was interesting, and I wish that I'd asked more questions when I was making the album. But back onto it, Tony Visconti, his name came up, and I was like, Who's he? You know, saying no, he should do the he and he was like, He should do the album. And I'm like, What do you mean do the album? It's like produce it, and I was like, What do you mean produce it? What does that mean? What does a producer do? And they were like, Well, you know, like George Martin in the Beatles, and I was like, Yeah, and he says, Well, it's like what he does, and I was like, What does he do? Absolutely no idea. Um, and uh they were like, Well, yeah, it's only gonna you did David Bowie and produced T-Rex and and Blood, Sweat, and Tears, and all this other stuff in Lizzie. And I was like, Oh, okay. Um, and then John said, It's kind of like a film director, you know, if you basically give a script to a bunch of actors and then they just do whatever they want, it's gonna be a bit shit. The producer keeps you in line, he makes you play because you want to impress him. Tony Visconti is a pretty impressive guy. Look at his back catalogue, and then it all made sense. And then I remember him being pretty much the same age as my dad. Um, so when I met Tony, he was absolutely lovely, um, really gracious guy, and he definitely lived a life and you know, um, was still doing it, and and he was very organized and very knowledgeable, and he got the best performances out of all of us, I think, um, at that time, anyway.
SPEAKER_00Um did he have much input into the actual sound? Did he have much input into the sound? Because the album sounds like cross between Love Spreads album, the second comedy album, the second story's album, and a bit more sort of your sort of poppy, slightly fucky feel to it. It doesn't sound like a Tony Visconti album.
SPEAKER_02No, not really. It was uh I think I mean there wasn't a great if you listen to the acoustic guitars on that album, they're not very loud. It's there's about 18 tracks. There's an 18 tracks of John's guitars on a lot of things. Yeah, um, so that might be the uh sort of second-coming kind of thing that you mentioned. Yeah, but yeah, mainly there was a lot of strings on there. I think um, I mean Tony's a real blender, really. He was it wasn't just Tony who worked on the album either. It's a guy called Rob Jacobs who produced uh U2's Ratland Hum, I think it was.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, or he worked on it.
SPEAKER_02I'm not sure if he produced it or he engineered it. Uh and he did the blood uh uh Hell Freezes Over, the Eagles live album. He did that one as well. So um, and he was well respected as well, but he was half the age of Tony, so them two used to argue all the time because Tony used to accuse Rob Jacobs of thinking that he'd invented the valve pre-amplifier and things, and yeah, there was a bit of tension there. Um, but generally speaking, it was really good. I think we all tried to play the bet to our best abilities, and we didn't want to piss Tony off because he didn't put up with any shit, but at the same time, he was really amazing and such a great guy. Uh, the best bit was when he did the string section for Blinded by the Sun and he he said to me, Come in here, Chris. And he went into the live room, and there was the orchestra, which was we borrowed from Barbara Streisand, who was uh actually they had a day off and um from working with Barbara Streisand, it was the LA Philharmonic, I think it was. Um, so they were in the live room, and uh I remember sitting on a flight case, and he said, Don't make a sound because we're recording this. He said, But this will blow your mind. And I sat there and I couldn't really hear the backing track apart from the tennis from maybe a couple of headphones, but mainly it was just the strings and in this amazing orchestra, and it was fantastic. And he was conducting it, and um, he'd written all the parts. And I mean, I just sat there and I was going, I cannot believe that a year ago I was in a bed sitting in Brighton with the window painted open when I'd written the song Blinded by the Sun, yeah, and thinking to myself, I didn't ever think that it would ever be heard by anyone, never mind, it'd be produced by this guy. Um, so yeah, it was a bit of a mind-blowing moment that.
SPEAKER_01And lo and behold, a number three single in Number two album. I mean, it's that level was you know short of falling, and you know, just falling short of number one. It's that's a remarkable level to be at. And as you say, from you know, from being in a Brighton bed sit to that was quite something to take in, working with Tony Scott Visconti, working with uh an orchestra that's used to working with Barbara Strands, and all these things are extraordinary. Then all the performances that have to go with it on the can on the usual way of having to be on what top of the pops or whatever. Um and then it came to, I think you you would have performed as the Seahorses, of course, you would have toured. Um, so was there a real sense of it almost going out of control at that stage, or was it all very organized and very switched on and and actually as it was supposed to be to plan at that time?
SPEAKER_02I think the main thing that I realized very quickly was there were people in place that made things happen very quickly. And as long as you knew what you were doing um on stage and um you know, as long as you you you were to the best of your ability, rehearsed up and you know, you get on with it, you do it, then that's all I could do. Uh try not to eat too many bacon sandwiches and basically turn up. And um yeah, I mean that was it. And and and I did that for two two years, maybe two and a half years. I don't know how long it lasted to be fair, because it was all a massive whirlwind, but I do remember in some ways feeling prepared, but it wasn't enough because you've got the variables of uh festival sound engineers and not not not sound checking at a festival and the excruciating volume of everything. Um I went from playing in little pubs and stuff, you know, with chutz bar and things, and then busking on the streets of York on Amplified to playing on Glastonbury stage on the NME stage that was sinking in the mud with no sound check, and I couldn't hear anything but white noise for the entire set. Um, I could basically hear the first few notes that John would play on the guitar, and I had to pitch from that for the entire set.
SPEAKER_01Your sheer stadium equivalent, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it was awful, and it was the first time we were properly on TV live as well.
SPEAKER_01Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I wanted it to be amazing, and it was very far from it, and it took me 17 and a half years for me to watch the video footage back.
SPEAKER_01How did it feel when you did Chris? How did it feel?
SPEAKER_02Well, I had to get very drunk uh so I could deal with it and have the level of kind of disassociation from it, yeah. Um, and uh I wasn't as bad as I thought. I think I managed to stay as in tune as anyone could, but you've got to bear in mind it's a lot of John songs, they've got mad key changes in, and you know, you're thinking, Jesus, it's absolutely I had to do it all from muscle memory in my throat. It was weird. Um, and I felt kind of and it was always like that, and for the entirety of the sea horses, it was always too loud. Um, and I I that was one thing that I found really spoiled fun for me because I I couldn't hear anything I was doing, and you've got all these people jumping around in front of you, and all you want to do is do a good job, and um it was just too loud. I mean, now you'd have in ears and stuff, and you'd have you know a lot of technology, which would probably make it a lot easier. But um, back then it I've got permanent tinnitus now because of it as well, which is a bit annoying. Yeah, just it wasn't it wasn't all misery, it was I mean, that was the kind of thing that it was sort of put dampers on it a little bit, but it was amazing. But we were traveling around all the time, so from one country to the next, we've honestly me speak cliche, but you do just see the inside of hotels and air reports and vans, and that is it. Um, so yeah, but it was good for him. Your question?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I got a couple of points. Uh when I did publish my little music magazine Charm in the late 90s, I remember leaves in York, and I wrote a lot about seahorses. I interviewed Stuart Fletcher, and I think I interviewed you as well. And my great friend Chris Wilson auditioned to be the drummer in Seahorses in the lake district, and he didn't get picked, but he remembers being there, he remembers most of the when when John wasn't involved with the music, his main interest seemed to be playing computer games, and that that seemed to be about it. And I thought that's quite a contrast, that's quite a contrast to Stuart Fletcher, as I know, because when I used to drink a lot, I could behave slightly crazily, uh as indeed we could subdue. So he once invited me out to go and see love with him, and and I didn't go because I I figured he was much more crazy than I was, and I thought, well, if John Squire's idea of fun is a computer game, then Stuart Fletcher's idea for fun is definitely not a computer game. This is a strange mix of people to be in a in a successful band together.
SPEAKER_02I think it's called individualism, and um and and we can we can everyone's different, but uh yeah, I don't remember John playing many computer games. I remember uh he was he was into into uh Tomb Raider, I remember. And he wrote a song, which was absolutely dreadful, um for the second album, which is one of the reasons why the band split up because everything is we'll come on to that, Chris, if uh uh shortly, if we may.
SPEAKER_01Brian, your second point you're gonna make.
SPEAKER_00Well, I was gonna say that most rags to Richie's stories aren't true, but in Chris's case, it it is largely true.
SPEAKER_02So it's not true. I beg to differ. I was wearing a really rat rather nice tidy pair of jeans, and I don't believe there's anyone involved.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, you can be poor and have smell, Chris.
SPEAKER_02I still have, apparently. Uh um, but yeah, this is it. I mean, I was I had like two jobs, it was hilarious. It was kind of like you go and sign on, and then I'd go work cash in hand. I shouldn't be saying this. It was in the 90s, so I'm sure no one's gonna bat an eye lid. I wasn't the only one. And I go and work in a shop uh selling vintage clothes in the Stone Gate Yard, which doesn't exist anymore. Uh shop was called Ragamuffin. Uh and then I'd go buskin, and um, you know, and the people that I'd signed on with from the job center would go past and drop me a quid, you know, so or a passe or whatever. So it was like everyone knew I was bothered, but I definitely I was I was skin, but I wasn't you know poor. But at this end of the day, it was uh it was it definitely um I mean we didn't get paid proper money until we've been in the band for about a year, to be honest.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was gonna say, did you actually get any riches from the success?
SPEAKER_02I did all right out of it, yeah. We all did.
SPEAKER_00Um Europe Blind by the Sun, that was number seven in the charts. I mean, Blind by the Sun was one of the main reasons that the album sold so well because it's a great track.
SPEAKER_02Do you think I thought Love is so you see? I thought this is the thing, because I'd just cracked on and I had no control over whether that was going to be a single or not. I remember when John when they were asking us what sing what do you think are going to be the singles, and John said, I don't want to get involved in that. Um, just let the record company decide because I think it had previously caused a lot of arguments with Stone Roses and stuff. Um, you know, whoever writes the song gets the publishing royalties from you know the airplay and everything, and you can accumulate quite a lot of money very quickly if you're if you're getting a-listed on on Radio One or whatever back then. So that kind of for you to try and force your point with your song was really not the dumb thing, I don't think. Um but they did choose Blinded by the Sun, and I do remember um being very chuffed about that. I wasn't expecting it to happen again.
SPEAKER_01Um there's there's an old Gallagher song on there as well, isn't there? Now, what's the story behind?
SPEAKER_02It's a Liam Gallagher song.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's a lame Gallagher. Oh, I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_02Makes it even more of an anomaly. Yeah, not quite. Yeah, yeah. Uh it's called Love Me and Leave Me. Love Me and Leave Me. The story is that I remember John playing the chords, and um he told me that what the lyrics were, but he'd never really recorded it. And he told me what the melody was as well. And I was like, Oh, this is this is really good. I mean, I really I love the cards and I love the lyrics, and um things are really quite a beautiful song. Um and he said, Oh, I wrote this with Liam uh at the weekend, and I was like, Oh, he said, Yeah, we went to the the football, or we were watching the football at Liam's flat or whatever, might have been at John's, I don't know. And um, and then he said that they were both hammered, and Liam started singing Love Me and Leave Me, which is the chorus over those chords, and uh and that was that. Um, but when Liam was asked about this, he couldn't remember anything about it. Um but then weirdly, it was the anniversary of Nebworth, and I think John came up and played guitar for him again. Uh Nebworth, so instead of Oasis doing it, it was Liam doing it, and I think so. Yes, and uh John came up and played, he was the guest guitarist on some stuff. And uh I think Liam had mentioned in an interview that suddenly his recollection of it all all came flooding back that he had written it, um, but there was a bit of a bone of contention because Liam got 50% of the publishing for that song, yes. And John was definitely not up for sharing his publishing with us. No, no, um Stuart was probably Stuart finished a lot of John's songs off, yeah. The whole ending of Love is the law wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for Stuart, yeah. Um, and he could say that about a lot of things in that album, and John wouldn't give him a penny for uh so there seemed to be a bit of a double standard there, and um my maid Stuart managed to get through it without I think I think probably Liam could have afforded bigger lawyers than Stuart. Yes, I don't think Liam needed lawyers, it was it wasn't anything like that, it's nothing to do with Liam, it's just the fact that John seemed to kind of like not be happy to share it with certain people and not others, and it's just yeah, it was kind of telling about someone's personality that really. Um, but there you go. Uh it was uh that's when we started to think this is this is about money for certain people, and then it was we were just happy to be involved in it.
SPEAKER_01Sure. So it comes to the love me or leave me moment, and um, I mean, the band came together in maybe unusual circumstances, if you like, you know, you it's not like a pop idol band being put together, but you know, it was an interesting way that it came together. Um, but the stresses and strains when it came to the second album, and I remember bumping into you and you know and you saying what had happened and whatever. So just talk us through that moment when you realize this is not gonna happen, this is just gonna stop.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, could you repeat that? I missed the gist of this.
SPEAKER_01When you came became aware that the second album was just not gonna happen. In in the case of Suede, they actually managed to make the second album despite falling out, but in your case, Chris, it didn't get that far.
SPEAKER_02Well, we'd recorded bits of it. I remember recording it's it's out there, it's a bootleg. Um, it I mean, I get asked a lot about this album, um, and um it's become a bit of a a cult classic, really, for some of the fans of John and the Seahorses and Stone Roses people as well, because of Mr. John's on it. Um, but I remember not being happy with the way it was where it was going. Uh we were supporting bands like The Rolling Stones, and you know, we supported you too, and we were playing these new songs, and I realized that there was no for me, I was just wasn't getting any emotional depth from it. I felt like I couldn't lose myself in it. I didn't know what he was on about. He'd changed the lyrics like every 10 minutes um on some songs, and some songs needed to be changed, but other songs I was just thinking, well, this doesn't mean anything, and it all seemed a little bit like it was all kind of uh a bit like a platform for playing a lot of kind of complicated guitar stuff, which bedroom guitarists would absolutely love. Whereas for me, it was like, well, as a singer, I kind of was in a position to and on big stages to be thinking, well, I should be doing what I want to be doing. Um because this doesn't last forever, and I felt like I'd just gone on the wrong path uh with it all. Um, and then when I started to try and introduce my songs, um he wasn't interested. Um I think there was a couple on there which we managed to manage to squeeze on, but it was sort of uh it just seemed all very one-sided, and I felt like John kind of knew it was the end of the road, really. It was around about the time where the record companies were getting taken over by Seagrum's the whiskey company.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02There was a big monopolist mission thing investigating all of that at the time. Um, and everything sort of got consolidated under one umbrella, and a lot of AR men got fired, and a lot of people were very nervous in record companies. And I think there was a high chance that um bands that didn't hit the targets were basically gonna get dropped, yeah. Um included us, and I think John knew this, so he was basically a bit of a kind of a cash crab before um it all ended, and um I think he wanted to have the album out and then get the publishing deal, which would be massively in his favour, and then then he would split the band up anyway, yeah. Yeah, so mid-recording I decided to dig my heels in. I didn't like singing a lot of the songs. There's one particular song which I mentioned earlier, Tomb Red. That's quite a thing to do, isn't it to decide no there's a lot of things in motion. There was a lot of things where um I felt very on my own at that point. Um there were certain things that people did uh that they all did together, and I wasn't involved in that um, you know, kind of drug things, yeah. And um it just didn't work for me in that sense. Uh and I didn't need it more to the point.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_02Um I think I was drinking too much, and I realized I was kind of going the wrong way, really, with everything, dealing with in the wrong way. And um I you know, looking back on it now, it's like I'm amazed I got through it really. There was a lot of pressure. Um I just basically got my head down, did everything I thought I was supposed to do. Um and um it was just it was it the whole people following you around town and stuff and that side of it, I wasn't used to that. I didn't become a musician for any of that. I wanted to do but I wanted to be good at something, and I wanted to do something that I enjoyed. Um, I wasn't expecting all that horrid things that come with fame and things like that, and and it was quite sort of the people that I was with in the band like the management and stuff like that. I realized that we were just a commodity really at the end of the day, and I managed, and I because of what was going on with the whole Seagram's takeover and the way that the record company had changed, and I remember speaking to one guy who was head of the Universal, I think, at the time, yeah. And we were just on a uh a number on a spreadsheet to him, yeah. Um, Simon Moran asked me to go and try and sweet talk him, and I didn't even know what to say to him, I didn't even really know who he was or what he did. No, but he made us feel like crap. Um, and um, I remember just thinking, well, what a horrible business to be in. Um yeah, you saw the other side of the business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it, you know, the the Icarus flying too close to the sun. It's probably not an image, actually, that's right there. It it because that wasn't the case, it wasn't recklessness on your behalf or whatever. This was something, you know, where you felt there was a loss of control that was happening. And and that look that must be difficult when that's happening. And it's not, you know, and it's not you that's uh, you know, that in any ways part of that, you know, that that's why that's happening. No matter what you did, you weren't able to stabilize things.
SPEAKER_02It wouldn't uh this is the thing that always kind of consoles me in a way when I kind of get a little bit sort of down about it, and even 20 odd years later, sometimes I do a bit because I'm only human, yeah. But I do count my lucky stars that I'm still around and I didn't um it didn't continue. No, and um I put my foot down at the time where I thought I needed to, and and I don't think anyone's really ever said no to John, and he didn't particularly take well to it. Um and they I looked at the contract, and if I'd have left the band, I'd have been liable for a million pounds or million dollars to pay for the the cost of the the album that never got finished. Um personally liable for that, and then I realized that um I was feeling a bit upset about things that were going on in my personal life, and really I think the word depression was not banded around as much as it is now. No, I remember telling my co-manager that I was feeling a bit like that, and uh he said, Um, either man up or hurry up and kill yourself because we'll sell more records, and there was no irony in his tone. So I just I was like, right, this isn't working, and it was I basically felt like I was just making money for a lot of other people, and they didn't give a fuck about the consequences, really.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And that was a good lesson to learn, to be fair, because yeah, if that's happening and I'm around people like that, I basically just sack it off. I have no problem about walking away, no matter how much money I was making or anything like that. I had a lot of friends saying, just stick with it, stick with it, you'll be making other album and stuff, and I could just see where it was going, and I was like, Absolutely not, I cannot do this.
SPEAKER_01Um in terms of being, you know, that possibility of a million, a million pounds, you know, lawsuit or whatever that would have happened. How was that avoided then, Chris?
SPEAKER_02I dug my heels in in recording studios, got exceptionally drunk, and made a complete arse of myself, and was particularly uh obstructive when it came to singing songs that I didn't like. But it got unbearable for John and he actually split the band up.
SPEAKER_01So that's the thing of um in a divorce, you know, with the unreasonable behavior who actually actually decides doing the unreasonable behavior, but in the end, you didn't know you did the unreasonable behavior bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, that's pretty much it, but it was it was in an extreme way because I exactly I could I I mean I could have done worse, but really all I needed to do was just be a little bit disobedient, and that would have been enough. Yeah, I've been doing exactly as I was told for years, and then when I started to question it, that's when yeah, I realized who I was with, you know, and it was like, oh, this is um this isn't somewhere I want to be.
SPEAKER_00So so so there will be no seahorses reunion then. I doubt it.
SPEAKER_01Not after this interview. Yeah, this is the one that finally finishes us off. That uh just last thing to ask, I suppose, is now that you're you know revisiting those songs and you're revisiting them in a different way, obviously in the in the acoustic way or whatever. Um, but how you sort of reassess those songs a quarter of a century on?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's interesting because the songs back then, because I would basically get your head down, keep on going, keep doing it. Um the the lot of the kind of sentiments because there was a lot of noise, uh, and you know, you when you break it down to just a guitar in the lyrics, and then you think, right, there's a definite way of singing this, so I embellish it my own way now, and that can kind of create a completely different feel a lot of the times. So, if for instance, there's a song called Love Me and Leave Me, which we talked about. Yeah, I never used to do that acoustically because I always thought it it was kind of just didn't really work, and then these days now I've kind of thought, how would someone like Chet Baker do it or Billy Holiday or something? Because it's got jazzy cords in it, and I was just thinking, we could make this work actually. And I mean, I don't do an impression of Chet Baker or Billy Holiday, but it definitely helps with the feel of it, and then all of a sudden the narrative becomes a lot stronger, you start kind of like really getting absorbed in it and and um in you know immersed in it, sorry, and it's um and it's been an absolute joy if I'm honest. I was at I really didn't want to kind of do this for long, but I'm really enjoying it now. Um, I think I've had had a word with myself really with it, and I'm really enjoying it. Um, and it's nice to be able to do that really. I've kind of I don't think I would have really thought on those terms a few years back, but these days it's sort of um because I play a lot acoustically anyway, so I sometimes have to do that with my own songs anyway.
SPEAKER_01So, any chance of the super group happening still with uh Blueton's and uh and and dodgy? I mean it sounds an interesting project. Is it is it dead in the water or can it be revived?
SPEAKER_02I'll never say never really. Um Um we'll see. I mean, everyone's really busy with a thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I've got my album, which is going to be hopefully finished at the end of March, and then I'll be hopefully releasing it soon after that. Um so there's 25 years of this uh anniversary um acoustic tours going on till the end of May.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh and then I'll be doing the second my my sorry the follow-up to the rookery, which has taken 10 years, but I've I've finally got um yeah, and I'm doing that. I'm working with Nigel still, love writing with Nigel, he's great. Um he was one of my heroes back in the day. I remember Dodgy were one of the first proper bands that came into Fibers. Um and we've been playing him on the jukebox, uh staying out for the summer and all that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um when Three Piece Suite came out, um I just thought that album was mind-blowing. And I still do actually, it still makes the hairs on the back of my neck prick up. Yeah, and I and it's really nice that Nigel likes what I'm doing, and I like what he does. I mean, I'm I'm supporting them on their tour actually in May, uh, which will continue on, I think, throughout the year. Yeah, because it's 20, I think it's 25 years of three piece suit.
SPEAKER_01It is, it is, yeah. And so um, Graham, please do the summary for the evening, maybe a last question and and a and an appreciation to for Chris spending the evening with us.
SPEAKER_00Well, first of all, I was gonna say thank you, Chris, for giving us your time and being so honest as well. See you both again. It's been too long. It's great to see you well and and doing so well. And to finish on a slight tangent, uh now that the days of the regional Fibra's venue in York are long gone, when I when I was there at the time, I used to think the place was a sort of messy, chaotic, robustious, slightly annoying place to be, where Tim Hornsby, the owner, would throw people out one after another, a time you know, day after day. And looking back at it, first of all, it was a glorious place to be. It was completely organic and that organic, natural, open, liberal, and creative. And secondly, I don't think the way the seahorses happened, in terms of you and Stu getting that gig would have happened without that Fibers environment that you're both involved with.
SPEAKER_02I think you're probably right. I mean, everything is an ingredient, isn't it, to end up with an end result. And I and I think that that was a vital one, the whole Fibers community. Um, I mean, I worked there for two or three years anyway. Um and Tim was always very supportive with me after Chutzpire, you know, making me he used to just get me support slots for people and I like John Martin and things like that, and I definitely wasn't prepared, but he threw me in at the deep end. Um and I was like, I can't do this. And I remember giving the John Martin to Dave Keegan because I'd but Tim was really quite brutal, but really he definitely had a lot of faith in me, and and I thought, and hopefully he still does, but it was uh it was Tim Tim's he's got a lot to answer for and mostly good things, so yeah. Um and I do think that he created an absolutely brilliant little almost as kind of crappy as CBGB's, but yeah, it was he definitely um made me focus on what I should be doing, and also kind of standard as well, really. Um, but also sort of sort of a different side of the business as well, you know, from a promoter's angle and everything as well. Um but he's got I think he's gonna be writing his memoirs soon.
SPEAKER_01He is he is busily writing them as we speak. He's doing exactly that.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, that'll be fascinating, Reed, because I mean so many people went through that venue. Um he's got a lot of stories, and he can tell a good story as well. He can. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, Chris, I say goodnight, Graham says goodnight, and uh enjoy Pocklington on Friday. And will you be including will you be including York gigs as well on on this uh mighty iconic tour?
SPEAKER_02No, I don't think so. Um I'd I always save York for doing an album launch, but like I say, it's been 10 years since exactly so uh I tend to not do that. I I'd I'd think it'd be weird doing a Seahorse's thing in York.
SPEAKER_01It would.
SPEAKER_02Um you're right. I don't think uh something I don't know what it is, but I'm definitely not compelled to do it uh in any way.
SPEAKER_01Uh well there you are, there's the honest reasoning, and we thank you for that. No problem. Well Pucklington rocks on on Saturday night, so enjoy that. And thank you for tonight. Cheers then.
SPEAKER_02Hey, no problem at all, and it's great seeing you both again.
SPEAKER_01You've been listening to the podcast Two Big Egos in a Small Car. Your hosts were Gwen Charles and Charles Hutchinson. This was a Baltic subproduction.