Two Big Egos in a Small Car
A passionately laid back overview of the arts and culture scene in York and Harrogate with observations on journalism. This podcast is hosted by Charles Hutchinson and Graham Chalmers and regular guests.
Two Big Egos in a Small Car
Episode 159: Harrogate Theatre's Pantomime: New Todd Haynes Film, May December; Shane MacGowan RIP
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Longer wording: Charles and Graham are moved to discuss just why why Harrogate Theatre’s pantomime is the best in the world.
Graham discusses Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman's chemistry and why May December is Todd Haynes's slipperiest film.
A sombre conclusion as the great songwriting talent of The Pogues' Shane MacGowan is considered after his flame was snuffed out at 65.
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So we'll come we'll come to the post later, but uh let's start with something that we both went to the opening night. And I actually I love the confidence of Harrogate Theatre that you know they did a few, I don't want to call them warm-up performances of the pantomime for schools, but we did go on the first, as it were, adult night uh of the Harrogate Panto this year, uh, which is Dick Whittington and familiar faces, but always new elements as well. And you put the interesting suggestion. Why Harrogate Pantomime is the best pantomime in the world? Quite a big claim, that one, Graeme.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I mean, in a way, it's a ridiculous claim because it means for it to be true, I would have had to seen every other panto in the world, which of course just isn't possible. But I I've said that because I hate panto. And I I saw Panto as a kid and I didn't like as a kid. I took my nephew and niece when they were seven and eight or ten and eight to King's Theatre, Edinburgh. This is about 1990, I think, to see a panto starring Les Dennis. And that confirmed me that I just hate Panto Panto's awful. It's all it's all.
SPEAKER_01In Scotland, it was a great tradition.
SPEAKER_02Stanley Baxter, legendary pantomimes, um, and not the only great Scottish pantomime star. So uh so for you, you weren't kind of you know, this wasn't a Christmas staple that you would head off to Falkirk or you'd head off to Glasgow or head off to Edinburgh for for for what it was supposed to be the great Christmas thrill, a Scottish pantomime.
SPEAKER_00No, I thought it was an insult to some intelligence. It was all formulaic and a bit stupid and a bit vulgar, and yeah, I I know it's funny as well. I'm not against humour, but I I always I always find it just a bit of an insult. But the Harrogate Theatre Panto, which I first went to, I don't know about seven or eight years ago, mainly because the panto acting legend that is Tim Steadman, who always plays the funny guy and has done for 23 years now on the trot at Harrigat Theatre. I told him when I was interviewing him that I didn't like Panto and therefore I'd never seen the Harrigat Theatre Panto. And he said, Come to the Hargat Theatre Panto, you will like it. And I went, Yeah, yeah, yeah. He went, No, no, no, no, no. Come to Hargate Theatre Panto, you will like it. So I went and wow, wow, he was right because it's intelligent and it's it has just enough of the formula to make it a panto, and no more, and it's definitely not an insult to intelligence, and it's really funny, and it's really entertaining. So I love Harriet Theater Panto, so I thought it couldn't get any better. And wow, wow, this year it is better, it's the best one I've seen.
SPEAKER_02And you were there, so you you yeah, it's I mean, uh there was a time when it was fair to say that when we watch the work of Beric Kaylor and York as uh as the absolute apex of of what pantomime could could achieve in Yorkshire and on the scale that it did. Uh I've always banged the drum for Harrogate pantomime as well. And I do think now that of the best value pantomime across across Yorkshire that we see that ticks, and I hate the expression ticks the boxes because it's much more than that. It's a far cleverer pantomime than that. But this is a pantomime that just each year does something that adds to it. So just giving some examples. Last year, Michael Lamborn came up to play the Baddy and Harrogate for the first time. Wonderful, familiar actor to York uh theatre royal audiences, often from playing um animals, uh, a wonderful thespian voice. He hears the Lamborghini of voices, and um he's done storytelling, he's done uh wonderful work within uh Alexander Flanagan Wright's uh piece, The Great Gatsby, where he played the narrator in that. And he's done myriad things, he's directed, he's uh um held a youth theater in in York, but he is one of those actors who on stage it's that's where he's meant to be. He comes, he's alive anyway, he's just a born, he's a bon viveur in life. But he was he was meant to play the baddie, like David Leonard meant to play The Baddie and has done so wonderfully. But that's the new thing that's come through these last two years, isn't it? He's really added to the pantomime.
SPEAKER_00Normally, Tim Steadman, who plays Idle Jack, and is always utterly hilarious and also very good at talking to the crowd, and he sort of leads the whole thing, even though he's not on stage the whole time. Yeah, usually he stands out as being the best by by distance, but they've strengthened the cast so much this year, including with some actors, actresses making a debut, and with Michael coming on board recently, that that the it didn't stand out quite as much because it's strength and depth. Now it's it's like it was a ridiculously well-acted panto by the whole cast from top to bottom, I thought.
SPEAKER_02We we chatted with Marcus Roman, the director who who's uh was seated in the road behind us, and uh there was kind of a flow of conversation between us, actually, even as the show was going on, such as his enthusiasm. And we chatted with him at the half time and we chatted with him at the end, and he's really proud of just a little highlighting things again of bringing younger talent into the pantomime. So uh I think there's as many as uh maybe four cast members under the age of 30, uh, some of whom have done uh other things in in Harrogate before and have now come through to doing the pantomime. And one bit of talent spotting that he'd done uh was for the Dame who is under 30 years old. Um, and he talented spotted him when he was 26 and has brought him forward this year to be in the Harrogate Pantomime. And forgive me, Graham, for not having the program in front of me.
SPEAKER_00That's Harry Wyatt, his name's Harry Wyatt, right?
SPEAKER_02So Harry Wyatt, and it was it is the most I think it's that it's one of the most challenging roles in pantomime, and traditionally it's usually played by someone a little bit older because after all, you are playing the model, you are someone playing the veteran, and he's not someone battered Charles, it's usually someone fatter as well.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's bat as well. But he was so good that you you forgot all about that. He was absolutely amazing.
SPEAKER_02And then I think the other factor that uh perhaps we should reflect on is Marcus's own involvement for York audiences. They will be familiar with Marcus's work when he led set up Pilot Theatre Company, originally Castleford, and then became a resident company at York Theatre Royal, and was basically instrumental in um bringing multimedia into theatre, but also playing to a teenage audience, which is something that um has continued with pilot theatre's work, and they're at the forefront of that in what they do. But Marcus also was always fascinated by the use of technology, what he could bring uh into shows that hadn't been there before. And just an example within this show, it isn't a case of just having a few children dressed as rats. Instead, and you could say, is this cheating? No, it's not, but it's using technology to have imagery of rat rats going across um the backdrop. And details like that, we're in an age where we're used to multimedia now with pantomime, and he uses that very well. And the other detail that I love that he does, and he's always done this with pilot shows. At the end, he puts a credit list up as if it were in a film, so you can check who played the roles, check who was musical director or whatever. I think all these kind of touches that he's done, it just takes this pantomime to a different level to others.
SPEAKER_00Well, what they do, I mean, the scripts by the chief executive theatre, David Bone, and the late Phil Lowe, and also there's contributions to the script from Tim Steadman, the genius comedy panto actor as well. But what what they do is that they they stick within the traditions and the formula of what a panto is, but only as much as is necessary. Yeah, and everything else, every detail, every 20 seconds, there's something intelligent or unexpected or new that makes it worth taking seriously because panto is primarily for children and it's primarily fairly silly. But Harrigat Theatre Panto is so good it's almost worth reviewing like a like a drama. That's how good it is.
SPEAKER_02It also has what I love, uh, and not all pantomimes um get the tone of this right, but it'll have a dig at Harrogate Council, or in this case now, the rearranged, reorganized North Yorkshire Council. And uh it was a double-edged comment. It was saying it was referring to reorganization and the chaos that goes with that. And as the audience is laughing at that, the second line comes about all these empty shops that are now in Harrogat, and we find ourselves laughing at it. And it's a so people recognize it, but at the same time, actually, there's a critical comment that's going on there as well within Pantomime, which has long been a tradition that you have comedy within it, but often it's just oh, let's. I mean, as they do, they use they mention spoffeth because it's a funny sounding word like blubber houses, and you get a laugh for that, and it's a local reference. But I think when you suddenly bring politics in it, that's local politics like that, as they did, and it has that impact, and everyone recognizes it. That's why there's as much for adults in the show as for children.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think Harrogate Theatre Panto is entirely off Harrogate, but except with national standards, that's what makes it so good. It is local, but it aspires to be something that anybody from anywhere would think, Oh, that's good. It's just brilliant. And I went to Harrigate Theatre earlier this week for the Harrogate Advertiser to interview them for the paper, and I interviewed uh Niall and uh Faye, who played Dick Whittington and Alice Fitzwarren, and they're the sort of like romantic leads, and normally those are quite quite boring roles, they have to be there, otherwise a panto is just a sitcom. But they're they're not great, you know, they can be quite bland roles, but those two who are both from Harrogate in the went to St. Aidens, I think. That's right. Both of them bring real character and real modernity to those two roles, which otherwise can be quite boring. And when I was interviewing them upstairs in the Stalls Bar in the magnificent, gloriously beautiful Harrogate Theatre, who popped his head around the corner having heard me probably talking too loudly, but Michael Lamborn. And it was on and I went, Hi Michael, you were great. And it was almost like he just turned up to make sure I hadn't forgotten him. And I thought, it just doesn't get any more thespian than that.
SPEAKER_02No, no, yeah, he he is he is the essence, the quintessence, uh uh of thespianism. I think it's one of those, it's one of those shows, the utter joy that it has about it, but it's also beautiful to look at. Costumes are uh good. The staging gradually, the more the show went on, that we had better and better stages than and even and I'm not well, I'm gonna give myself credit for this. Last year, the walk down song at the end, traditionally at Harrogate had always been Robbie Williams Let Me Entertain You, and it went out last year. And Marcus argued that no, it was better to bring back a refrain from the first song. And I said, Well, actually, people don't necessarily remember the first song, so it doesn't have an impact as the walk down song. I said, Everyone looks forward to Robbie Williams's Let Me Entertain You. Which song Graham came back in this year?
SPEAKER_00Well, I can't I was so overwhelmed by the fact that they began the whole panther with the clashes London calling. I don't remember the last song. But what was it? It was indeed Let Me Entertain You that they brought back. But you're right. That's another thing. That was my cue to praise you, Charles. So that was my cue to praise you. I'm sorry, Charles, I missed that. Charles, you're genius.
SPEAKER_02I mean, which other pants of mine would ever have London calling?
SPEAKER_00It's a very it's also quite a cool panto. It's it's uplifting, but it's never stupid. So it's it's to use your the line that you hate, it takes every box possibly imaginable for a panto. It's just amazing. Anyway, we've I think we've waxed lyrical so much about the panto where we should be in it next year.
SPEAKER_02I would urge people to crack on with getting tickets. This pantomime sells incredibly well. Um, it's also just to emphasize as well, Harrogate Theatre needs support. Um, on and it really does. This is a theatre that lost its arts council funding, which I thought was a disgraceful decision. And so it matters. It matters that you support your local theatre. And when the quality is this high, go and see this pantomime. Full house after full house. That's what it deserves. I think you're right, Charles.
unknownGood.
SPEAKER_02Now, Graham, I feel um, it's time for an interruption. I would like to have no idea what you might interrupt us with this week, so fire away.
SPEAKER_00We you know, I like to perform a public service for all our listeners, yes, especially with warnings about things to avoid, and I've warned them before before about Andrew Mu, if he if he's anywhere near Britain. Well, I've got a new warning this time round, and it's uh beware Keene are back.
SPEAKER_02Now, what have you got against Keene and the beautiful voice of Tom Chapman?
SPEAKER_00So that's so boring. They've been going for 20 years now, Charles. Can you leave it? 20 years, and they've got a new single out called Love Actually, which is actually a song from the Richard Curtis film of 2003, which I don't think came out at the time, but they're released as a single. And if if if like me you don't like Keene very much and find them hideously bland, beware because next year, 2024, they're doing a world tour.
SPEAKER_02So would you kind of lump them with Coldplay?
SPEAKER_00Sort of Coldplay like Coldplay sort of aspire at times to be you too, a band that you can take seriously. But Keen are sort of like uh if there were a 60s band it would have been the moody blues, but not even as interesting as that.
SPEAKER_02So you're not gonna you're not gonna grant any gift of melody that they have, you're not gonna find any beauty in Tom Chaplin's former choir boy voice.
SPEAKER_00Nothing. Well, yeah, they they can clearly do melody very well, but the end result is a bit like drinking a cup of Horlicks.
SPEAKER_02I've been here before you with you, Graham. I love Horlicks, and I'm I'm I'm not saying that I'm you know uh avidly keen on Keen, but I'm more than happy to listen to uh a small selection box uh of Keen. Not a lot, I take your point, but I think you're harsher on them than I think is merited. I know they're kind of virgin virgin radio favorites, aren't they? They are. I get I get that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, in that case, Charles will be going next year in May to Leeds Arena where Keen are playing.
SPEAKER_02Uh, I'm not that keen on them. Won't be doing that anyway. Thank you for warning people that uh you know lukewarm look lukewarm feelings about Keenan and lukewarm feelings about Coldplay, which which fair enough. Now, Graham, I have not seen May December, and I'm a little bit frustrated because it's going to be on uh satellite in America. It's been on Netflix, which Celestine has an account for, but over here it is going to be on very soon, it's going to start being on Sky Cinema, which I've uh I don't have, and you don't have either. But you went to see it at everyman, and I know DJ Cinemas will still be showing it, which is very frustrating.
SPEAKER_00One of the annoying things about films now being tied up into streaming and streaming platforms, isn't just that people like you and me who refuse point blank to do film screening, which which makes us seem a bit oddly. I know that. But even if that wasn't the reason, the other problem is that a lot of films now that are partly financed by streaming platforms like Sky or Netflix or Amazon Prime, they don't get proper film cinema. They get a token a couple of showings here and there, then boom, they're on streaming only. So I managed to see May December Todd Haynes' new film, obviously having seen lots of Tom Haynes films in the last 30 years, just thinking, great, I can actually see it in the cinema, she's fantastic. So I went along and it stars Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman, and it's about uh a woman, a middle-aged woman who uh had an affair with a pupil at school when she was a teacher. And they've been married now for more than 20 years, and they've got kids, and everything seems fine until that's Julianne Moore, the the teacher, until Natalie Portman comes along the actress, who's about to star as Julianne Moore in a TV film adaptation of that whole scandalous incident, and it's all about her researching her and living with the family to see what's what she's really like. So the whole film is about what really happened. Was it really a case of abuse? Are they really happy? Is Julianne Moore's character really a nice person or not? Blah blah blah. And it's it's quite it's quite an unusual storyline for Todd Haynes because as you know, Todd's a pretty serious director like Carol. It was a brilliant film with uh uh Kate Blanchett, absolutely amazing film, and Far From Heaven, yeah, great, safer film with Julianne Moore in about 1995. That was uh you know, another great film about the modern era of being scared of being outdoors and viruses. So this is quite a trashy storyline for Todd Haynes.
SPEAKER_02You've described it as being slippery, and I don't think you meant in terms of people not being able to see it unless they uh have um uh sky cinema, but uh in what terms is it slippery? Because I mean his films, I'm not saying his films are elusive, but you have to work quite hard with and root and for reward with Todd Um Haynes' films. What's made this one slippery? And is that a good thing that it's slippery? Does it mean again you have to work quite hard with the film as an experience?
SPEAKER_00Well, when I when I saw it, I originally thought, well, great actor by Julianne Moore, great actor by Natalie Portman, but the ending was a bit disappointing, and I thought, what was the point of the film? Uh what did it mean? And I thought I understood what the point of the film was, I thought I understood the direction of the film. I thought I understood what Todd Haynes was getting at in the narrative and the way he directed it. But lo and behold, the next day I started to doubt my own opinion because the film comes along nicely and you're sort of siding with Julianne Moore's character vis-a-vis Natalie Portman's character. But then something happens, it happens a twist, and then the ending goes a certain way, and then you start to think, well, how good is Julianne Moore? What really did happen? If what is is my opinion of what I think happened correct or not? And you really can't work out even if you think about the story of the film again, it's very hard to decipher who the good guy is, who the bad guy is, who's the what's really happened. So it's quite an interesting film. It's and the fact it's got twists, that's not really a Toad Haines thing. It doesn't really do twists. Yeah, twists aren't really an arthouse of a director's favourite tool. So it's it's an unusual Toad Haines film, and it's it's it's left a long aftertaste.
SPEAKER_02Have you seen Saltburn?
SPEAKER_00No. I've heard I've heard a lot of good things about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and go and see it and then we'll talk about it because I think it's one of those films it's well worth talking about. Um the only reason I mention it there, a couple of points just to link in with that, is when you get to the end of the film, you think, well, what points being made? And and um, and at first you you think, well, actually, it's not really covering very new ground. But as you mentioned, actually, the more you get to think about the film and what you've seen within the film, it is a film that stays with you, not necessarily for good reasons. I read one review that put it uh beautifully saying there are images in it that uh you will uh you know that you'll never be able to unsee. But you know, and you wish you could un unsee them for having for having seen them, but we'll come back to Salt Men if you get the chance to to go to that. Um, what about the use of music in this film? That might seem an odd thing to ask, but I mean Todd Haynes um it again, music's important in in filmmaking. How does he use music in this film?
SPEAKER_00Well, he's he's always like Joseph Losi, the great British European director of the go between Maryland Bates and Julie Christie, yeah, which came out in 1997. He's always like Michel Legrand's soundtrack, his score to the go-between. And he got a new he obviously got he'd think it's Michel Legrand to do the uh music for me december. In fact, I'm not sure Michel Legrand's a lot, yeah. Probably isn't. So that's that's a major problem to ask him. But the the guy got to do it, he he gave him the the sort of soundtrack of the go-between as a sort of guide to the sort of thing he wanted. And they end up deciding to actually virtually copy it. Not not not not exactly, but fairly close. And it and it works because it gives an extra texture. It's a bit like if you watch some of John Lut Goddard's greatest films of the 1960s, quite often the music doesn't seem to fit the images, and it's a bit like having an extra voice in the film giving it an extra direction. And so that's the that's the sort of thing it's achieved in mid-December. And it may and it it creates that slight sense of unease the whole time, where you're not entirely sure whether this is a satire or a drama, whether you're supposed to believe this bit or not. And the music helps achieve that.
SPEAKER_02Uh Natalie Portman's greatest performance, obviously, in recent times, has been in that perfume ad but with absolute staggering acting in there, of course. Um tell me about her role in this. I mean, Julianne Moore, I think, is one of the great actresses of her generation and beyond. And filmmakers love love working with Julianne. Natalie Portman, do we think that she's been underrated? And is this the kind of role that actually reminds us what what a serious talent she is?
SPEAKER_00She's one of those Hollywood actresses who's in Hollywood actresses quite often get stereotyped and cast depending on how they look. Looks are even more important to women in Hollywood than they are for men, although looks matter to men. I mean, where would Brad Pitt be? That is Luke's or George Linney. But for women, it's an even you know more important thing that happens. So when Natalie Portman, unlike Julianne Moore, who who's never chucked towards sort of like glamorous roles, particularly, Natalie Portman who looks different to Julianne Moore, has been pushed a bit more towards traditional female stereotypical roles, although not to a huge degree, just more than Julianne Moore. So she's already appeared in lots of serious films in serious parts. But I always feel that she's very rarely allowed to carry carry a film her own. She's normally part of two or three big actors, usually part of uh one or two. And I'd like to see her take the main role above all other roles in a movie where she has to carry the film, because I think she could carry the film, but she's not she's never been given that chance, I don't think. And she's not given the chance in this other because she's playing opposite Julianne Moore. But I'm sure she could. Perfect. They're both they come across as competitive, quietly bitchy, intelligent, sharp people. It's almost like mental dueling in verbal disparring. It's a they're they're competing against each other. It's it's quite a it's quite a clever film. If you don't think about it as you're watching it, it's a bit of a sort of trashy tabloid fodder type film. But if you think about it, there's there's a lot more going on than you think. And that's partly down to the two actresses of people central characters, because they've got so much richness in the performances that it brings the whole thing alive.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's uh May December, and the title, Graham, just before we finish on May December, is one of them called May and one of them bizarrely called December.
SPEAKER_00It'd be a comedy if that's that was the case. No, that'd be a double double act. No, it's obviously because when she was a teacher, she was December and her pupil was May.
SPEAKER_02The gap in ages at the time. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think actually, this is the big shock. I think it was 13.
SPEAKER_02Oh, oh, sorry, because having not seen it, whereas you have. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It does make it a bigger issue, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're more in um, well, no, we won't go there and say any anything, anything inappropriate. So, anyway, you'll have to see that um unless the case is. You're gonna have to see it on uh on Sky Cinema. Graham, there's time for another interruption.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I was just gonna do a quick thing about bands that don't sound as good when you listen to them as they do when you read about them, i.e., bands that critics write lots of articles about and books about, who sound amazing in print. But when you actually buy the albums and play the albums to death, you end up having not such a great experience. And uh, I've I've got five bands in mind, and I was wondering if there were any bands that you know of.
SPEAKER_02I I replayed as the reputations okay. I replayed for the first time in a long time, never mind. Oh, yeah. This is a great lead single, smells like Teen Spirit. I think Come As You Are is on there, but there's a lot of unlistenable hogwash on there that's completely overrated.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, that wasn't quite what I was aiming at because I'm not talking about bands that aren't as good as you think, it's more about they're not as enjoyable to listen to as you think.
SPEAKER_02So I would still share that I was not enjoying that listening experience beyond those two great, great songs on there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I was thinking about more things that are a bit more arty, like for example, Soft Machine.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Frank Frank Zappa. Frank Zappa?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, unlistenable. Another good one, Faust, the craft, the uh crack rock band. Yeah, I go along with that. Quite a few. Captain B Far completely unlistenable. No, no, it's not, it's not they're always unlistenable, because there are some Faust tracks that are good that I like listening to. There are some soft machine tracks, there are some Captain B F heart tracks that are actually good as well. But it's it's the in their totality as a listening experience, it's it's it's not brilliant the whole time. So Affects Twin he has brilliant moments, but there's a lot of AffX Twin stuff. Or how about and here's a big one, you can't you're not allowed to criticize this band. But I would suggest that even though they have 100 songs. No, that they've only done no one did one album, they don't even count. Uh yeah, you're just taking the Mickey now. Sonic Youth. Come on. Yeah, completely overrated.
SPEAKER_02Completely overrated.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely right, Graham. I'm not I'm not really criticizing them, it's just that they're not easy to listen to a lot of time. And I think the the the champion band of all the bands that critics love, which if you read about them, you think, wow, this is a really interesting band. And then you buy the album and you go, Ooh, still a bit interesting, but King Crimson.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm not gonna argue with a single one of these judgments, Graham. Me and my gavel would be banging a death notice and a black hat on all of them. Dead right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but yeah, but that isn't what intended. I don't mean to see they're rubbish because they're not.
SPEAKER_02I'm not saying that, Graham. I'm just saying life is too short to work hard at albums that are largely unlistenable. And there's so much music that that is quite the reverse of that and is worth discovering. And I get so annoyed when people, for reasons of trends that I do not get, rate albums far higher than they should be, and they remain largely unlistenable and unplayed and gathering dust, and they're simply worth they're they're worth more for record collectors having vinyl versions of them that they sell on.
SPEAKER_00Well, the thing is, King Crimson to me are interesting, and I would happily read several books about King Crimson, that's how much how interesting they are. But the idea of buying a Kim King Crimson box set with possibly 16 albums on it, would just I mean, would I ever listen to it more than once? Would I even listen to it once? I'm not sure it would. Did you see?
SPEAKER_02Did you see who's got a box set coming out? Major box set? Billy Bragg. How many CDs are on Billy Bragg's box set?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but he should call it Bragging Rights. Bragging rights. It's 14.
SPEAKER_0214 CDs of Billy Bragg.
SPEAKER_00Well, he's a great songwriter, but I've never liked his voice. And when I interviewed him on the phone a few years back, he kept on referring to himself in the third person. Did he? Which I did, yeah, yeah. I mean, I saw I saw him interviewed recently in print in Uncutter Mojo or somebody, and uh he again he referred to himself in the third person in that interview, so it must be a bit of a habit of Billy Bragg's to talk about his own braggness, his own bragism. Bragging about Bragg, just liking the name Bragg.
SPEAKER_02So that's yeah, that's for whereas whereas with um uh Kirsten McCall's new uh box set is eight CDs, including an album that's never been released before from 1993. And uh, and the reason that I think it'll be a wonderful box set to get as well is all the duets that she did with various bands. So that's much more. I'm nothing against Billy's album. In fact, there's a there's a version of the of these uh of Billy Bragg's a new compilation of 40 Billy Bragg songs from these years, so um, which may be the one to get rather than 14 CDs worth. But I think Kirsten McCall's does sound like one I might ask someone to think about a Christmas present for.
SPEAKER_00Well, having had a go at Billy Bragg, I'm gonna have a second go at Billy Bragg. New A New England, which is a great song by Billy Bragg, would you rather listen to the Kirsten McCall version or the Billy Bragg version?
SPEAKER_02I would well, because of course he wrote an extra verse for Kirsty as well, and that's yet another reason to prefer Kirsty's version. But that that said, I mean, I've over the years I've seen Billy Bragg's many many times in concert. Um, where it by by these days it's there's actually more conversation than music, which on some people's ideas, given the roughness of the voice, might be preferable. But I I you know he is the classic, he is the classic troubadour, albeit that he's left he's left his uh what might be considered his uh you know his is his uh bar of barking roots to go and live in the glorious uh south southwest, um, which uh is of course why why why not? But um, yeah, it's it's I mean it does remain quite quite uneasy listening, hard listening, I guess. But again, rather like Dylan, other people do his songs, and you think, oh, great song, great song. And actually, he probably warrants rather more cover versions than he's had.
SPEAKER_00He does, he does, but a bit like Dylan, his his voice is a bit of a it's a bit marmite.
SPEAKER_02Uh which brings us to the death of Shane McGowan. And I'm not saying his voice is marmite, but it it by the end, by the end, uh once once the drink and drugs had got to him, that that voice was um very erratic in concert, should we politely say, by the time the the Pubes got back together in 2001, and finally in 2014, Shane played with them for the last time. And of course, at times um uh Joe Strummer stepped into play instead of McGann when he couldn't perform or whatever. And uh Shane had been in his wheelchair since 2015, and really the latter years have become a a love story uh with Victoria, his wife, and she wrote a beautiful book about him. And the most recent thing that Shane had released was um a book of his uh frantic drawings, really. I say drawings, but they were done with Byros, and that that uh was raising money for treatment really for him in the in the condition that he had. Little question for you, Graham. When do you think Shane McGowan last released an album? It was with the Popes. When do you think it was?
SPEAKER_00Uh either early noughties or late 90s.
SPEAKER_02So it was 1997, Crock of Gold, album made with the Popes in 1997. Apparently um, he has recently been working with a band called Cronin um with maybe covers and maybe new material. I don't think it was that clear in the obituar that were written. And it's one of those things where you here's a somewhat brutal question. Did Shane McGowan ultimately fall short of what he could have been, given that he you know it became if you if you stop writing songs by 1997, is that something where a career actually the burnout that there was is ultimately frustrating? Or actually, there are so many wonderful songs from that brief, well, I say brief, but I mean a flurry from the early 80s through through to the last of the pogs albums. Um and uh but is it a career that ultimately didn't quite hit the peaks that it could have done? Was it a shame there were no songs later in his life?
SPEAKER_00It was it was a career, it was a career where he hit so many peaks for about eight, nine years that there was no more peaks left to hit. Yeah, and I think he's he's he's the Dan Hill slide through drinking and drugs was almost inevitable because he had nowhere. But I think he did so many great songs, and I saw him live three times in the 1980s. I think one time with you at New Cat Newcastle City Hall. That's right. And we we I I saw him change in front of my eyes in the space of seven years from someone vaguely normal to someone plastered on stage and drinking on stage.
SPEAKER_02Which band did the pogs do a cover of at Newcastle? Oh, good grief. I should remember this, but I don't what was it, Charles? It was a Jesus and Mary Chain song, Darklands.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it was. I can I can now visualize it now. You're right, Darklands, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And of course, McGowan went to perform. They did a McGowan went to do a vocal, of course, with Jesus and the Mary Chain on the Stoned and Dethroned album where they where they worked together.
SPEAKER_00God help me. Yeah, now yeah, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02So are you gonna go with Shane uh Shane and Sinead doing Haunted, or are you gonna go with Shane and Kate or Kat O'Reardan singing haunted out of the two versions?
SPEAKER_00Uh the latter.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, yeah, I agree. Absolutely, which is the one that Shane, because of the fallouts or of Kate leaving the band, he ended up re-recording it with Sinead. Okay, Graham, putting you on a spot. If you want to choose a favorite uh poges song, and I'm not allowing you to include the obvious uh uh uh duet with uh the wonderful Kirsty, uh but who would do oh maybe let's put it a different way. If you were to pick out one pogue's album that you'd recommend people to buy, and I'm you're not gonna go for greatest hits, but one of the studio albums, which one would it be and why?
SPEAKER_00Well, one of the most good songs is if I should fall from Grace was God, it's a pack of great songs, but I do like a pair of brown eyes on Rom Sodom in the Lash. It's really I the I did so many great songs of Rainy Night and Soho.
SPEAKER_02That's that's my favorite, Graham. That's my favorite, Rainy Night and Soho. So God bless Shane McGowan. And I mean, in some ways, a miracle that Shane got to 65. And I think, Graham, you get it absolutely right that one should cherish the talent for what it was at its peak. And I they remain uh some of the greatest gigs I ever saw, the pogues, along with it singing jury and the blockheads. The pogs are up there as my favorite gig experiences, maybe Jesus and Mary Chain at their peak up there as well. But the nights I had at the Pogues, which varied from even seeing them at a at a an Oxford ball uh one time, and then as you say, we saw them up at Newcastle. They were an extraordinary live band. It was an experience being like at a it was obviously in the sense like being at a football match, but in many ways it was. Uh and everyone though, cheering for one side, an extraordinary bond that was in there.
SPEAKER_00Lee brought the party, didn't matter where they were, Lee walked on stage, it became a party.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Because there was God bless Shane, and and and uh, you know, we've uh our thoughts are with you and obviously with Victoria as well at this time. And uh we thank that the pogs music came our way. And I've been playing little else since he died in the way that one tends to do when these things happen. You've been listening to the podcast Two Big Egos in a Small Car. Your hosts were Graham Chalmers and Charles Hutchinson. This was a Baltic sub-production.