Three Authors Discuss Hilary Mantel's THE MIRROR AND THE LIGHT

I had a really wonderful chat with two of my favorite historical novelists! Anne Easter Smith, most recently author of This Son of York, along with five other books that take place in England during the Wars of the Roses; and Patricia Bracewell, author of the Emma of Normandy trilogy about Anglo Saxon Britain. The third volume, The Steel Beneath the Silk is out March 2! Both are published by Bellastoria Press.

So here's the thing: We all agree that Hilary Mantel is a remarkable writer, but one of us didn't love The Mirror and the Light, the final book in the trilogy about Thomas Cromwell. The first two books were Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies, which have been made into wonderful TV series starring Mark Rylance as Cromwell. Want to find out who thinks what? Listen!

Transcript

Susanne 0:27

I'm here too day for an incredibly well, I hope what will be an incredibly fun conversation about Hilary mantel and especially her most recent book, the mirror and the light, which is the third book and her massive trilogy about Thomas Cromwell and. The people I have here are two very special authors who have differing points of view about this book. One of them is an Easter Smith, who is the author of six books that take place before the time of the tutors in it? She's a Ricardian Richard. The third was a subject of her most recent book called This son of York I also have Pat Bracewell here, who is the author of books that take place even further back with The Anglo-Saxons and Emma of Normandy and her new book, the steel beneath the silk will be coming out on March 2nd. And I am deeply in engrossed in reading that book. Now it's absolutely fabulous as our ants and they're both English history people, whereas I am not. So I am pretty much going to let them talk more than I will in this discussion about. Hilary mantel, who it seems to me from my sort of my little informal poll. People seem to either love her or really hate her. So I have one of each here. first of all, Let's start on the positive side. So Pat, talk to me a little bit about what appeals to you about Hilary Montel in general and the mirror and the light in specific.

Pat 2:06

I think first of all, I think mental is a brilliant writer. Her language is marvelous. And in this book, when it's been quite some time since I've read the earlier books but in this book, I really found that I was totally captivated by it. this is not Tudor England. This is Cromwells England. And she manages to immerse us in that world. It's almost like we sink into the story where we get the words and the thoughts, the observations, the dialogue, and the people. And they cling to you. Like you've been dipped in a bat of peanut butter. you're really in the middle of everything and I'm astonished at the things that she does. To make this happen.

Susanne 2:51

all right, we'll start there. And then we'll, I'll give an, a chance to have her moment.

Anne 2:56

I know this is going to be very hard for me because I know both of you are mental aficionados, but as much fact. I could not get into Wolf hall. I tried twice, I got two 50 pages and I just gave up. So I never wrote, read that one and I never read, bring up the bodies. And then when this one came out, I thought why would I read the trilogy? the third in the trilogy until Suzanne and Pat persuaded me to come. In with them on this podcast. So I have spent the last six weeks reading this tome and I, I have not as nice things to say about mental writing as they do. Yes. She's very Her metaphors are stunning and she definitely is a a word Smith. But to be honest with you, I find her writing self-conscious and precious so that we are sorry. That's

Susanne 4:00

okay. This is why I'm doing this. I'm really interested in both sides of this coin. And I'm, as you said, I'm more on Pat side, it's really. It's always good to try and articulate what you like or don't like about a book, because I think it's instructive for other people as well. I'd love to talk about the very beginning of the book. Because that, to me, it's funny. Cause I went back to it to prepare for this because I read it and it's 750 pages, but I loved it because it totally carried me through the whole thing, but I went back and looked at the beginning and I think it's astonishing what she does in that first scene. Pat. Do you have anything to add about that? Or

Pat 4:45

I was thinking about that just this morning, because I feel like in this book okay. In the first two books we see Thomas Cromwell is the central figure and she throws a positive light on crumble. This is not the Cromwell that we saw from, the. Six wives of Henry the eighth. Remember that we've all seen a million years ago. this is the Cromwell of Mark Rylance. in those early books, he was handsome and good looking and he was the central figure and sort of a heroic figure in this book. She really throws a lot of shade on Thomas Cromwell. And she starts with the very first sentence, which I'm going to read once the Queen's head is severed. He walks away a sharp paying of appetite, reminds him that it is time for a second breakfast or perhaps an early day. Now, how can you love a man? when you're in his head like that, she really brings us bang, right? This is not going to be the Cramo that I was showing you before.

Anne 5:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I agree. And from that moment, I come to this book from my English history classes and I'm a huge fan of Robert bolt, the bolts or man of all seasons. and I we were taught just like Richard third. We were taught he was a bad King and I have since. Found out he wasn't backing. But I think that all through the book, there were moments of humor, which I loved his humor. But for the most part, he never changed from me and my impression of a manipulative ambitious and rather cruel guy. so I don't, didn't see all of the other parts of him from the other two books. So this is what I think makes this discussion interesting is the fact that you've come at it from two other books where he was. All sweetness and light. And now she's got two who really Thomas Cronin was, and that's, hasn't changed my opinion of him at all this book.

Susanne 6:49

interesting. You should say that because he was presented in a more positive light in the first two books, but his quality as. ambitious as very pragmatic was definitely there, but what she did was humanized him, I think in showing us, his relationship with his wife and the, and that whole sort of, the thing with the painter who's Holbein and people like that. And and the family life his life at his house, whose name I forget right now something friars. Austin fryers, right? Yes. Yeah. And and so you're right. I came to this book with a feeling of, this is a complicated person. But he's basically, got his head on straight and his heart in the right place. But as you point out, that is not the Thomas Cromwell. We see at the beginning of this book, on the other hand, what I think she does brilliantly throughout is pull us back from that and back into his past as a way of not explaining exactly or excusing, but helping us. Yeah. Yeah. Helping us understand where he's coming from, how he got to this point. And that was something that wasn't so much in the other books. I don't think, although it was a while since I read them. So I'm maybe not remembering, but I just found that took me right into a different place. I still remember the scene of him hiding under the scaffold.

Pat 8:12

and there are relationships in this book. There are times when he tries to help people. he gets Wyatt at a prison. he works at that. And they're even people like who is it? Woolsey's daughter. He cares about her. He wants to help her. And she hates him because she has heard something about him that isn't true, but he can't convince her otherwise his relationship with Catherine of Aragon. even though she's gone now, he thinks back to things that happened and his relationship with Mary, where he's trying to help her keep her from getting from her father, killing

Susanne 8:48

her.

Pat 8:49

but I don't see the ambition so much in this, as I see, it's like. he's we see him he's pontificating. he's both dramatist and player. he's like moving pieces on the chess board, but always to protect his kid. That's rule number one for him.

Susanne 9:10

Yeah. But also by protecting his King, he's protecting himself.

Anne 9:15

that's exactly what that's how I felt that he was, he would go, which way would, was going to protect himself as, as well as his immediate don't to rush Ray and his and Gregory. But I somehow never felt that he was. he thought of Henry as anything, but his this all powerful and huge presence. But I think I always got the feeling. he believes that he was smarter than Henry and and he would hide that sometimes because Henry was, Or powerful. He knew he could he be put down if Henry wasn't happy with him But my I'm not saying he was in this book. He doesn't come across as terribly ambitious. That's how I went into this book thinking of Thomas Cromwell and his ambitions have played out and he's got where the only place he can be, which is Henry's right-hand man. He can't be Henry. So this is as high as he's ever going to get. And but then how he still can manipulate things. And I. I load the fact that he was able to uh, mass all of this land and this, and just give gifts away. And he didn't, I don't think he looked after where he came from, the people he come from, he didn't help the poor or anything like that. He was just. Very much keeping his allies. And if I have to bribe this person or give this person a position, that's the kind of manipulation that I didn't want to him. I'm sorry. I didn't. I, his sense of humor. Yes. But that, that his actions I didn't

Susanne 10:58

It's interesting. You say that about him ignoring the people from his past, because I, you're right. I don't remember him being magnanimous toward them. However, there's very much a sense all the way through that. He hasn't in any way forgotten where he came from. And there's always going back to that whole sort of metaphor, the thing about him and steel and iron and the blacksmithing and all of that kind of thing. It's just. Which I think is part of what makes him such a complex character.

Anne 11:30

I agree. I think people who have had a childhood like that, and I was gathering from little bits of flashback. Of course you knew more than I did. And sometimes I didn't know I was in a flashback and I'm thinking who's this, And it was hard for me cause I didn't recognize the names. I mean I do the same thing in my Richard book and I think mantle. That's exactly what she needed to do through the three books. And I did it. I had to do it in one book because I didn't have the luxury of publisher saying 700 pages is fine for me. but I think What I tried to do with Richard was show the child and where he came from that maybe made some people think that he became this dark man at the end which, he did have a dark side to him. And and, but I felt I couldn't leave out that childhood to see him as he had to make his way through. being the youngest kid in this family and Edward becomes King and all of that. So I I get that with white mental did all of that with a childhood and I'm sorry, I didn't read the other books, but there we are.

Susanne 12:40

That's quite all right, Pat, you were going to say no

Pat 12:43

one lets him forget his past. they're constantly throwing it up in his face that he's a commoner and there's this terrible fear that he's that he's gonna marry. Mary, and so he's got enemies against him all the time. You're talking about him protecting himself. And yeah, he's trying to protect himself by aligning himself with the King because it's only the King that can give him the protection that he needs. but there's always the foreshadowing of what's going to happen. It's there in every chapter, you get this foreshadowing of what's going to happen with Henry and what. What has happened with others, with Henry and it's just very chilling to read those to read those passages.

Susanne 13:30

let's talk a little bit, I, one of the things I love to dig into, and I think Pat, you were talking about this at one point is the craft elements, how she does what she does and I just randomly picked a couple of places and started reading and you immediately get what the mood of something is by the length of the sentences, by how they're put together by, it's just the pacing and the way she manipulates the prose is very effective in my view. any comments about that? I thought

Pat 14:06

the intimacy that there's the intimacy of the voice. So you have, sometimes it's Cromwell, you're in Cromwell's head. That's his voice that we hear. And then she'll slip into an omniscient narrator who knows the past, the present and the future who knows everything. And frequently, what I saw was that she went into that omniscient voice towards the end of a chapter that sort of was like a commentary. Yeah on what's just happened. there are times when she uses the first person that I, and the we, and it brings us right into the story. That's

Susanne 14:42

us.

Pat 14:43

We were part of the story. So that's also a way to to add to the intimacy of the story that she's telling.

Anne 14:51

I think we should, we can't get away with talking about. this and these books without mentioning the he and the book. so for those. Maybe listeners who don't know that she very rarely uses Cromwells actual name. unlike me as a writer, I will start a new paragraph with saying Richard ate his breakfast or, but mantle starts it off with, he eats his breakfast. the sentence before had Henry doing something. And then he says he eats his breakfast in the next paragraph, and I'm saying, but Henry's already had his breakfast. Why is he eating his breakfast again? And then you have to stop and look back and say, Oh, she's meaning Cromwell. to me jarring your reader out of the book. So you can figure out who the heck he is in this particular sentence. It drove me a non-US.

Susanne 15:49

That's interesting. I can empathize with that. the thing is that I think as a reader of all three of the books you get used to just the default, he is Cromwell, So when she says he, unless she's clarifying it, unless she actually clarifies that it's someone else it's going to be Cromwell, but that's, it's definitely a peculiarity of her style. And in, you said something that was, that also was interesting is her use of the present tense. Throughout, which I think even though, we all know how the story's going to end, we all know what happens to him, but the present tense somehow makes it more yeah. Immediate and maybe a little more surprising, because you're not looking back at it from what has happened. And also because she's so close into his head and he doesn't. See the future, obviously at that point, even if he's got some kind of feeling of dread of something that's going to happen. But I also found there was a really interesting place for me where he, where she goes, where she uses the omniscient voice, but not at the end of a chapter. It's the scene where just just before 5:00 AM on Monday 13, November the merchant Robert Packington a member of parliament leaves his house in the city of London to attend early mass thickness blankets, the streets around. Anyway, she goes into this scene this audition scene. From up above and he gets shot. And then. And then it finds a crowd gathers, blah, blah, blah, before seven o'clock he Lord Cromwell. And she does that too. And just in certain places. Yeah,

Anne 17:25

because I think she was told to do it after the first two books were so confusing.

Pat 17:30

No, she approached you frequently in the earlier books, she would say he Cromwell and that's what used to drive me crazy. And she, she does it. So here's another place where he's in bed and he's thinking, and he says, he's thinking about Henry is a Prince, even human. If you add him up. Does the total naked man he's made up of shards and broken fragments of the past prophecies and of the dreams of his ancestral line, the tides of history break inside him. Their current threatens to carry him away. His blood is not his own, but ancient blood. He lies sleepless bear in prom. his mind ranging across country over the Dales and rivers to where the factions in there and camp mints stir in their sleep and curses name. So we go from being right inside his head to this omniscient voice that describes him.

Susanne 18:20

He's doing, it's really hard to do that successfully. So I think so.

Pat 18:25

Yeah. Use the omniscient voice to set a scene, as you were talking the one that you described where we, okay. We looked down on high here's the scene, and then we go into the scene and into somebody's head. She kind of slips back and forth all the time from Cromwell to this omniscient and

Anne 18:44

narrator where he. initially it says the Ruffin Chrome wheel comes in and I realized, Oh, if she'd said, Hey, he comes in, I wouldn't have thought that he would describe himself as a rough ruffian. and later on the page, she says the man Cromwell laughs at, but see I found over of those back and forth confusing. it just it, so I was constantly stopping and trying to Assess who is doing what to whom you know, a lot. So

Susanne 19:17

yeah, I can see that. And I think that is probably one of the things that makes people, not like these books, the fact that you have to just be so immersed into it, that you get. All of that without questioning it as it were, I

Anne 19:31

think that's right. And the other thing I really did find, and that's because I'm sure you, and you all have been chastised by our editors who are, who have. Crossed out lovely descriptions of something and they say, doesn't help the story. And there was one, one time he wrote, I counted them full hundred and 80 woods on a bowl of plums. By this time it was about 650 pages in and the story was moving along and suddenly we get full 180 words describing a bowl of plums because she can, but it. It told me nothing about the whole yes, the writing is beautiful. If you took that paragraph out and put it up on the screen, you'd say, Oh my God, that's a fantastic description, but it's indulgent, I think. Sorry, but I do.

Susanne 20:28

Yes. And there's a certain aspect of, she can get away with it because she's holding hand down.

Anne 20:35

That's right. Yes.

Pat 20:36

So I wanted to talk a little bit, if you don't mind about the title. because I went all the way through this book and I I underlined all the different times that she talks about a

Anne 20:48

mirror. Oh, four 52 lights. There were 50.

Susanne 20:55

So clearly that

Pat 20:56

title was, she had that in her mind at the beginning and she describes. she has chromo describe Henry as the mirror and the light

Susanne 21:07

that until the end, I'm trying to remember. I thought I fought that's for me was when we got to the end and she said that I was like, Oh, that's where the title

Anne 21:15

came from. I don't think it was quite at the end, but it was certainly past the maybe two thirds part. yeah. Yes. I remember

Susanne 21:23

that.

Anne 21:24

200, 200 words, 200 uses of the word light too. That's not, lighthearted or, but light.

Pat 21:32

Yep. And so I was wondering, the very last two chapters of the book. One is called the mirror and one is called the light. And in those two chapters, we see no omniscient narrator at all. It's always in Cromwell's head except for one line in where is it? I dunno, somewhere in one of those he actually goes, has one sentence. That's omniscient.

Susanne 21:58

I, it's so interesting, those last chapters, because and it makes total sense to me that she wouldn't be an omniscient at all, because what struck me is that even whatever Cromwell thought before he's so into where he is now that this whole, everything that happened, takes him by surprise a little bit.

Anne 22:19

it took it did. I obviously know what happened to Chrome. Well, cause we launched it in our history books, but I I found it a little so surprising that I was confused as to why it had happened. that way I saw a couple of clues, but then I didn't see anything until he was actually, arrested in the courtyard and I was. I was just confused as he was,

Susanne 22:43

seems so minor.

Anne 22:44

Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly.

Pat 22:47

That was one. That was one complaint that I have with was her author's note at the end, because there were things I wanted to know how much of this is actually true taken from the time, because we have a lot of the. from that time, we have a lot of that history written down. And so I wanted to know these things that they bring against him seems so minor is that actually what they were doing. And of course, Maybe it was as long as the King wanted it,

Susanne 23:15

but again, think, but think about an balloon. she had these major charges, but they were based on small acts in a way. and the thing is that I think if Henry decided he wanted to. Someone to go away, they found a way to make it happen. Yeah, it was

Pat 23:32

based on lies. And it seems to me that the mirror in that, in those final chapters, the mirror is Chrome, well in the same position where he has put other men and he's seeing now

Anne 23:45

who he was, which it must've been like. Yeah. And

Susanne 23:48

then that, so starting with Anne balloons, B heading and the end, it's just it's almost chilling because who he is there and who he has to become at the end when he's, I thought that was masterful actually. And her effect of pulling the rug out from underneath the reader at the same time.

Anne 24:10

Yeah, she definitely did that to me. And I think it almost. It almost would have been fun, but, they would have probably been cliched to have had him on the scaffold, see someone out in looking at him as Thomas was looking at. and the auditions saying he was wondering what he was going to have for breakfast. cool. Yeah.

Susanne 24:32

Yeah. But you can fill that in a way, terrible and yeah. Yeah.

Pat 24:40

and I think the light, I think the light is his final recognition and acceptance of who he is and she ends it with that verse. I am, as I am. And so we'll be at the end which again, is that whole recognition. This is who I am, that nothing I can do about it. And it's over.

Anne 25:01

As obviously you have been invested in Thomas Cromwell far longer than I was. So when it got to that last scene and it got to him suddenly realizing he was facing his own demise how sympathetic were you?

Pat 25:19

I was very sympathetic because I felt like I was in his head and he talks about, what hell was going to be. It was the anticipation of the pain. It was the anticipation of what was going to happen. That things were going, you were going to be accused of things that you didn't even know you'd done wrong. And of course that's exactly what he did to other people, but there's still that you're in his head, you know, what's going to happen to him. And I guess that question, how is she going to handle that was in my mind from the first sentence. Yeah.

Susanne 25:52

And

Pat 25:52

so it was it was really fascinating to me to look at what she

Susanne 25:56

eventually did. Yeah. I think it's really hard to do that when you're writing in the first person, but also. Yes, but

Anne 26:04

she's not, she wasn't writing in the first person.

Susanne 26:07

No, not on the first person. I'm sorry. Close third. Where in his head, right in his point of view. Sorry about that. but the thing is that, even though I was, I felt that empathy for him, it wasn't an ending. That was even close to making me cry, like unlike you would with another kind of character. But I think that was maybe intentional because we do find out who he really was. And he was, incredibly smart, incredibly intuitive. He could, he knew he could see how to manipulate and move and he got his just desserts in the end. however terrible they were. I

Anne 26:49

think so, too.

Pat 26:49

No, it was really heavy that comes across as

Susanne 26:52

horrible to me. Just

Anne 26:55

even worse. I quite agree with you even worse than he was even worse. Yeah. And actually I did want to just touch a little bit on talking about Henry on her character, her characterization. That was another problem that I had with the book. And I think some of it was the fact that I was reading it on Kindle because I couldn't get a copy and I wasn't going to spend$27, sorry guys. But I got it on Kindle and I thought I'll read it quickly. Could not get back to the dramatics person, a, the full pages of which there are. and so all of the minor characters other than Henry and other, and obviously Thomas and my favorite was the French servant Kristoff who came across to me very clearly. The rest of them, they all ran together for me. I never got a sense of character. From a Gregory from rave and Gregory were interchangeable for me. And then Risely and who was the other guy? Risely and there was another Richard. Yeah. Richard Rich. Yeah. Yeah. He was a piece of work too, but I never really. I could never see them in my mind's eye. And that's something that I'm a very visual reader and I guess cinematic reader and I need to distinguish these people, whether they've got a glass eye or, that's a bit simple but these characters, she didn't give me any depth for me. and so I didn't care about any of them. Anybody else? did you love Risely?

Pat 28:41

I listened to all three books, listen to the audio book and then I read. This one after I'd listened to the whole book and then I read it. And and so I got a few for them, especially the French guy and Holbein, and the reader for this book was absolutely fantastic. really good. But they give Henry this sort of high pitched whiny voice, which I loved because it really made him you know, Cromwells duty was basically to console and to calm and make him feel. Like he's okay. and everything's going okay. you're the mirror and the light, my Lord of all princes all the world over. And it really did. Having Henry have that sort of tiny high voice really made you hate him?

Susanne 29:35

I don't remember. Was that just in the third one? Because I listened to the first one and I don't remember that, but that was so long ago.

Pat 29:42

Yeah. the first one, I think there was more than one nighter. They may have been more than one narrator. I can't remember, but it was definitely a different narrator this time. And I really wondered. Who made the decision to have to have Henry come across as high pitched and whiny,

Anne 29:58

makes you wonder what they would do to present day leaders and that eventually the novels come to be written of them.

Susanne 30:10

Just going back to what Anne was saying about the secondary characters, which I found really interesting. I had very clear images of some of them, but not all of them. And I think that for some reason that didn't. Bother me. It's like they were S they were acting more symbolically to me in some way. I'm not sure how to explain that, but if I really try and make a picture of, especially the ones who weren't in his household, I Rafe, I know Gregory and Christophe and all those people are very clear to me, but the ones outside of that, they're almost interchangeable.

Anne 30:46

that's. that was,

Pat 30:48

I think that I really got a strong sense of Thomas Wyatt. I got a strong sense of Holbein for sure.

Susanne 30:55

Yeah. I'm talking about,

Anne 30:56

I get two for the whole bunch, but he was not a politician. He was. That you took you out of this political world. And I appreciated that. I liked that

Susanne 31:12

too. And

Pat 31:16

of course you can imagine listening to it. We get all the different dialects.

Susanne 31:21

So chef we has a very.

Anne 31:29

But anyway I wanted

Pat 31:31

to ask you about the ghosts

Susanne 31:32

this book is full of ghosts. yes. I know. Yeah. Especially when he's in the tower at the end.

Anne 31:38

I see what you're saying. Like Thomas Moore and all that.

Susanne 31:43

No

Pat 31:43

subtle. It was just like, he looks over in the corner and Thomas Moore gets up and

Susanne 31:46

walks away. wow. The only one who actually talks to him is Woolsey. Yeah.

Anne 31:50

Yeah. yes. That's right. Good. Oh yeah. I don't know. I thought it was seamless and perfectly normal personally, I talked to ghost too.

Susanne 32:00

maybe what that did was give him this sense of mortality too. And this whole sort of leading up to his own. Death. It was part of that, maybe his own, maybe a premonition of what was to come seeing these ghosts. I think the

Pat 32:16

scene very much, there's a line very much at the end. On the last night of his life, he thinks about your dead. They are visible and they shine their is honeycombed with the light. he's just surrounded by the ghost that he created. He did most of those

Susanne 32:30

ghosts. Yes. Yeah.

Anne 32:32

I, the line I really loved, which was he thought this was interesting was a thought from Cromwell, but he doesn't say it to Ray. He's talking to a ref and he says, you couldn't persuade the quick to think again, but you cannot remake your reputation with the dead. That's a throwback to. We'll see, and obviously Anne Boleyn. Yes.

Susanne 32:53

Yeah. And I thought that was a very interesting craft choice you made to where she would be talking to someone and be in quotes and it would continue the conversation, but he wasn't saying it that loud. It was in his bed.

Anne 33:04

and I think one of the most horrifying scenes in the book to me, which I did think sh she is a brilliant writer, please don't get me wrong. I just know she's a little. Self-conscious but great scene of wince of sorry's mistake and the whole how they cut off a hand. and that I was right in that scene. That's why it was brilliant that the violence of it that more than. even the beheading I'm, I guess I'm used to beheading, but there's something really visceral about having your hand cut off. And I was thinking all the things I couldn't do if I didn't have a hand, that

Susanne 33:39

she,, any more observations anybody wants to make before we end our, I think really interesting discussion.

Anne 33:47

no, I'm. I'm I, the only thing I'd like to to say other than thank you very much for, including me in this discussion considering I was the sort of naysayer of the group I just wanted to make. A comment about Montel herself. And that I found something I thought was very interesting asked whether she would change facts to suit her narrative, which w the three of us all go through. We all wonder if we should do this. I was happy to hear her say I would never do that. I aim to make the fiction flexible. So it bent itself around the facts as we have them. Otherwise, I don't see the point. Nobody seems to understand that nobody seems to share my approach to historical fiction. I suppose if I have a Maxim, it is that there isn't any necessary conflict between good history and good drama. Which I totally agree, but I have to say I did present the fact that she thought nobody else does that.

Susanne 34:52

Obviously he hasn't read everybody but,

Anne 34:54

but yeah, I don't know. I just found that.

Susanne 34:57

yeah. And that is, that's actually one of the reasons why I have mostly stayed away from biographical historical fiction because. I, that is a huge challenge to arrange the fiction around the events. And you don't want to change things. You don't want different outcomes or whatever, but you do what she does is she does advent invent some characters who are very useful. And and I in particular Christophe was an invention.

Anne 35:22

Sure. You won't

Susanne 35:23

do that. Yeah. But but yeah, I, I'm a chicken I have sometimes we'll just instead invent a drama around the events that happened that were not where the main player isn't my main CA

Anne 35:39

yeah. But I also I think that that's why she doesn't have a very big author note because I think she thinks we all know this about the, I think it, it does do a reader, the reader, a disservice who wants to know more or not everything in the book was cut and dried and real. And I know Sharon Kay Penman may she rest in peace? Lovely lady. she she had. 12 pages worth of author's notes, because she was meticulous about telling us exactly what was right. And what's wrong in the book, that's maybe a little overkill, but I know she used to agonize over those authors to notes. and I was looking forward to Hillary Montel's too. And I thought I wonder if this was right or that was right. And I was surprised to see how short it was. Yeah.

Susanne 36:34

Yeah. Any thoughts about changing things? I know you see the thing is Pat's history is so. Undocumented right then that, that it's a whole different thing. And I have huge admiration for the story that you've been able to. And the characters you've been able to create around this very limited factual history. But we are going to talk another time about this meal in the silk. or it, sorry, it's the steel being neat. I'm going to get that right at some point. I'm terrible because especially when I'm reading books on Kindle, where you're not, you don't see the title every time you pick it up. I forget. I sometimes if I didn't know us by you, I would have to go and check because I forget the authors too that's, which is really irritating. But yes, it is the steel beneath the sill, which is the third volume of her trilogy about Emma of Normandy. The first one was shadow on the crown. Second one was the price of. Blood, right? Yes. And the third one now is the steel beneath the silk. And I won't even try to say the titles of all of your books and maybe you would do that for us.

Anne 37:45

in order, they are the arose for the crown daughter of York, the Kings grace queen by right Royal mistress and this son of York. And this son of York is the closest one to having a protectiveness that most people think was a bad man as mantles Thomas Cromwell was. And it's a matter of looking at him from a different point of view. And so that's the only one I have is a male protagonist. So

Susanne 38:18

yeah. Okay well, I can't thank you guys enough for doing this. It was really interesting to me. I am I am not an English history person at all, as I said it's good to get your perspectives on this. And And just honored to have both of you fabulous writers on my podcast. It's been fun. Thank you so

Anne 38:40

much for it was wonderful. And if I could just put in for people reading sorry, listening. I would just like to say if they want to see sort of film versions of this period, that includes. Henry and Thomas Cromwell, certainly the Wolf hole TV series that the BBC did is very well worth seeing. And on Saturday I sat down and I found a man for all seasons, which is a wonderful look at Henry. And so Thomas Moore, but. Leo McKern as Thomas Cromwell. Now he is my Thomas

Susanne 39:22

Chrome. Okay. that's a project. Watch all of them, but yeah. Anyway, thank you again. And we'll be in touch.