Interview with Erika Robuck, Author of THE INVISIBLE WOMAN

I had a great chat with Erika Robuck about her fabulous new book. We talked a little while ago, but I've been having computer issues (waiting for my laptop to come back from having a new battery installed, grrrr) so I just finally got to edit this conversation today.

I can only say that Virginia Hall was a wonderful subject for a historical novel, and you'll be on the edge of your seat as you read it!

Transcript

Susanne 0:28

My guest today is Erica Roebuck. She's the national bestselling historical novelist whose most recent book is the invisible woman, which I absolutely devoured. I really loved it. What I like to say to people is I thought I was done with world war II books, but then I read this one and it's no, there are just so many stories that are really awesome. Erica, why don't you tell us a little bit how you came upon this story? actually

Erika 0:55

I'll touch upon the world war II comment. I had sent a couple of years ago that I don't think I could ever write about world war two, because I know how hard the research, how much it gets into your head. I'd been talking to Alison Richmond, another novelist about it. and then fast forward, a couple years later, I was reading a Smithsonian article and came across Virginia Hall, a woman from my home. The state. And around that time, and editor had said to me that I should be writing about women who are strong on their own, not just strong or interesting because they're the wife of an author or something like that. and that's when I found Virginia Hall and I had to throw away all of my ideas about not writing world war II fiction and over the course of researching her story. Of course, I found other stories and there are just. Endless stories, endless friends. It was a world at war. and now 75 years later, a lot of these things that have been hidden are starting to come to light files are becoming declassified. so I think you're going to still see that comment, that interest continuing.

Susanne 1:52

Yeah, absolutely. And I have to say it's I have that same feeling that it can be really depressing to, to dig into that period of history, which is like you a reason I don't do it. I go further back. I get away from the real world, but anyway so what was it about her specifically that attracted you to her? Made you want to write this story?

Erika 2:15

Well, aside from the fact that we grew up in the same places. And so I felt like there was a certain level of kinship there. I just, everything I read about her was so unbelievable. If I'd made it up, an editor would have said, that's implausible. Your readers would never believe this, but it was all true. whether it was the fact that she did three different wartime missions as a. Spy behind enemy lines or the fact that she did all of this with a prosthetic leg that she named Cuthbert. the fact that them wanted posters from the Gestapo. it was just, it was unbelievable to me that her story wasn't more well known. And I, when I started finding it, I get very mystical about the process. I feel like the story wants to be known and that I have to tell it. So she just, she took hold with me.

Susanne 2:57

So why is it that you think her story was not known? Did it have to do with the classified documents or some other thing that,

Erika 3:05

yeah, so finding depending her down was really difficult. There wasn't a lot written, dedicated solely to her. There were a couple of biographies that had some earlier information, but a woman don't importance, which is the new biography that just came out wasn't around at the time. So it meant having to. Parsed together many different sources. And a lot of times it was just a chapter in a book about many women or a line or two in a French resistance, novel, or even a French resistance biography, something like that. but for her, when I was looking at the information, one of the things she said is that everybody she knew who talked about the war, ended up with people who died around them. Now she was speaking at that time. Much closer to the action, not further out, but then further out there was a woman who had tried to reach out to her to do a series of interviews. And she, it, one of the other women who was being interviewed said, Oh, don't ask Virginia Hall. She doesn't want to be found. And part of the reason is because after the war, she went into the CIA and she was in it until retirement. So she was operative until she was 60 years old. And so it wasn't appropriate for her to have any kind of public. Persona. So she, it made it very difficult to find her, but now that it's been many years, it's much easier.

Susanne 4:19

Yeah. I, one of the things that I found really captivating was that you choose to tell it in the present tense, first of all and you resisted the urge, the temptation as it were to. Be first person. Can you talk a little bit about how you made those decisions and what went into them?

Erika 4:40

I Rose naturally because I wanted the story to, I wanted the reader to be a part of the action. And there's nothing like that, that tends to get you right into it. That first person it's moving along rides that happens. So that was the choice Rose very naturally for that I didn't choose to do first person. I'm sorry. I was doing the present tense active. I did not choose to write in her voice because taking her on was daunting enough. but to actually take her on in her voice, I didn't feel that was appropriate for the story. I felt like there needed to still be just a little bit of distance from her as a spy, as a woman who was suffering, wanting to be alone self-contained as her own little wireless operator unit moving through France. so I did feel that distance needed to be there.

Susanne 5:25

Yeah. And I think that's a decision that a lot of historical novelists make when take when they are dealing with an actual historical character, somehow it doesn't feel right to be physically inside their head, looking at things through their eyes. interestingly, I was just editing a book about this kind of thing and and having to make that argument for having limited. Close third with one only one character. why not do first person? And you've just helped me articulate that really? Because I think you can. I also think you can describe things that the character herself wouldn't be able to describe. Because she's not seeing them from that perspective.

Erika 6:14

She was a little bit more space. And, I think as historical novelist, we take a lot of liberties anyway. But to really, to, there's only been one person from history who I have been, I feel like. I pretty much could take her on and that was nothing I'll offer until I have Sophia because I had volumes and volumes of the diary. So I had her voice in my ear, but I didn't have Virginia's voice in my ear. She left very little of a paper trail. Everything was written about her. So I had to write about her more.

Susanne 6:45

Yeah. And that's another really good point that, that. Depending so much on the kind of sources you have access to. Yeah. Yeah. so you took a certain chunk of her life and her activities. How what led you to decide on that particular period of her life?

Erika 7:06

it was, I've heard other novelists say that a book tried to kill them and I just roll my eyes. And I think it's a book, it's not for Elizabeth Gilbert says it's not brain surgery. You're going to make it. But I felt like this book tried to kill me. I started out with Virginia. I tried to place her with a contemporary character. So we had more of a connection to her and about 150 pages. And I realized. No, this is not working. So I ditched the contemporary fictional character. And then I woke her story with another SOE agent, another woman who had been haunting me, but then they never met in real life. So I felt I didn't want them to meet on the page. So I was trying to put things together that didn't go. So I removed her now I have Virginia Hall and I thought, okay. Let's start with Liam, her first mission. And I wrote the whole beyond. And then I, when she crossed the Pyrenees and got back to London, then I realized, Oh, that was all the backstory for the second mission. Then I started that. So 350 pages later, I found page one. And then I went from there and really it was your Atkins telling Virginia Hall. So when we drop you, you're going to have six weeks to live. That made me say. And who would go, who would do this? and that became one of the driving questions. why did she go back with a wanted poster on her head after her first network was destroyed and asking those questions is what led to the timeframe of the book.

Susanne 8:27

I think it was actually a brilliant choice to do it that way. Although, of course you had to get there. Yeah. Because what it does, what it allows is. A second layer of conflict as it were like, could the conflict is not just what's happening to her here. And now it's all the memories she has about what happened before. And, I just think it's, it really elevates the book too. Something much more literary because it's not just all about her kind of trajectory through that particular time.

Erika 9:04

Yeah. Just the physical action of that time is so interesting. But to add in what I believe was a heavy case of survivor guilt, and post-traumatic stress. I was talking to a combat veteran friend of mine and a police officer. Both of them had. three, two combat veterans and one police officer, and all three of them had post-traumatic stress at varying degrees, from different traumas they suffered. And it was so clear learning about the Virginia's extreme personality change over that time. some of the issues she had with nightmares, there was a lot of drug abuse during world war II, which Sides, but for spies being dropped into France, he had to stay up all night. They'd give you uppers. If you wanted to go to sleep, they would give you downers. And there was just constant pill popping. All of this took a toll in the mental health of these men and women. And so seeing that allowed for some of the writing that I'd done to come back through the flashbacks and just show you, one of my friends said when you have post-traumatic stress and you have a flashback, it takes you out of time and you just fall back through time and you don't even know how you got there. Sometimes. there was just a trigger just hearing an accent. We'll send you back or something like that. So I was actually able to use some of the things I had already written to show when she would fall back into those flashbacks.

Susanne 10:17

And yes, and it was terrifying as a reader to know that she was in that place. And to know that she was unaware of what was going on around her. Cause that put her in real danger.

Erika 10:27

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. To go out of time. That way. It's not a good idea. When you have two Nazi soldiers negotiating the price of cheese in front of

Susanne 10:35

you, Yeah, exactly. Oh yeah. How long did it take you to from start to finish, to write this book?

Erika 10:42

Took about three years from the original inception to the revision stage. So yeah, about a three-year process, I would say.

Susanne 10:51

Historical novels just do take more time because you have to do so much more research and everything and yeah.

Erika 10:58

Then another question comes up. It'll send you down a rabbit hole for two days, but you need to get all the details as correct as possible, or you will hear about it.

Susanne 11:06

I haven't read the non-fiction book that came out about her. Have you read it? Yes. It's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah.

Erika 11:13

You said Virginia Hall and they want to do a deep dive. I would go there because it's very detailed about her early life, all of her missions and her time after a war, so that it really is as a biography.

Susanne 11:26

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it is so interesting because. The intersection between biographical historical fiction and biography. And sometimes people don't really understand what the difference is. if you were to tell someone what the difference is, how would you describe it? I

Erika 11:44

think a lot of times people don't see the value of historical fiction. So I, I tell them that biography can give us the facts and the truth of what happened, the dates and the events of historical fiction can get us in connect to the history, through an emotional truth by helping us to experience the history with the. With the character. So I, I could read about, for example, slavery growing up and the ills of slavery and how Maryland was a place where this, that, and the other happened and how sad that is. And then I can read beloved by Toni Morrison. You got a mother. thanks. It's, merciful to kill her child so that this child doesn't have to go back to the kind of life that mother had. Now I can feel the emotion of slavery. I think the two go really well. They go well together and they feed each other. But if you can walk in the character shoes, I think it leaves a strong

Susanne 12:33

impression. Absolutely. And I love people who some historical novelists too. Describe historical fiction as the gateway drug to history. Yeah,

Erika 12:45

that's great.

Susanne 12:47

So is there anything else you want to talk about? Tell me about this wonderful book upside from.

Erika 12:55

I thank you for reading and for having me on this podcast, I really appreciate the support and the coverage, but one of the things I wanted to do, what I noticed about Virginia, her talent was that getting people to become loyal to her and trust her. And it wasn't always easy because she was abrasive and And brash and difficult, but once she had their loyalty, she could really corral people to do things for her and with her. And I loved in this book, I loved highlighting the people who aren't going to have biographies written about them. So when I'm thinking about a level Mimi and their son, you know the name I call him the boy. But those people were real people and they, the boy got a poor cross for his service in transporting weapons in his wagon. He was nine years. just looking at these real people well, that did whatever they could, no matter how great or how small you had somebody who's just willing to ride a train with an orphan child. This many stops and then pass them along to a family. Who's willing to keep a child and won't ask questions and, you know, it's just, everybody did what they could and all of this working together. Made the made it possible to save thousands and thousands of people. And, I just, I like highlighting the everyday people because Virginia Hall is not someone who's particularly relatable. she's a real life superhero and I'm not courageous. I don't have a percentage leg. If the Gestapo were chasing me through the parodies, I would curl up and die, but the people that she works with are very relatable and the emotions that she feels. So that's, that's what I want to

Susanne 14:26

highlight with the book too. Yes. and, the, those little characters other than they're not little, but those somewhat peripheral characters. Yeah. Bring so much tension in as well, because you're so afraid for them all the time. And I just like you said, the little nine year old boy transporting weapons in his wagon, it's just Oh my God,

Erika 14:49

I keep it goes so, so important. And there's the crazy thing is that it's true. you just, you really wouldn't believe it if it weren't true.

Susanne 15:00

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. this has been a really enjoyable talk and I'm very happy to have you on, and anytime you write another book, you're welcome to come back again. and as far as for me volunteering or agreeing to read your book, it was no hardship.

Erika 15:17

thank you.

Susanne 15:17

I appreciate you. Yeah, no I, I, I, you know, I do this because I love talking to other authors and just. Finding out more about their process and everything. And actually, I really ought to ask the questions that people always seem to want answered. Like how much of your day do you spend writing?

Erika 15:37

I spend about four hours a day. So usually nine to nine to one about is my writing, my school age sons. Then I have one son who's off in college, but when the school sons are either in school virtually, or in person, I write from nine to one and then I can come out for lunch exercise and then life after that. But Monday through Friday I'm at my desk for that part of the day.

Susanne 16:01

Yeah. Yeah. And of course this book was all done by the time the COVID came. Was it?

Erika 16:08

The drafting was finished and I was working on revisions. When COVID started. And it was really hard at the beginning when everybody was home together. And, I like, I have my classical music playing. I have my candle burning. I liked the solitude of no one being here. And all of a sudden I had a husband and three sons home all the time and it was a lot, but I just learned to put in earbuds and. Go to that private place. And then my, I we've had the very good fortune of finding this little cottage on the river and my husband and I had been looking for a place to keep our boat and to our paddleboards. And we found this little dump and we bought it. So we were able to do a little bit of rehab during that time. And. It was really nice to put a house together during, while everything was shutting down, we had another place to go and then it created a space for me to go and write or for him to go. And he had to do his office work there. So that, that became a godsend.

Susanne 17:04

Yes. Yes. and I know I've heard from a lot of writers that it's been very difficult to concentrate even when they don't have all the distractions of family and everything, because we're overloaded with the news and everything like that. Oh, that's not a

Erika 17:17

lot of face for news in the day that just sets me off. I got to do that later. If I do it at all.

Susanne 17:21

Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you so well, it's good. And I know we're all looking forward to having things changed so we can meet up, but I also so appreciate being able to do these virtual things and I don't think they'll go away. Yeah.

Erika 17:36

This has been a great thing.

Susanne 17:38

Okay. Well then thank you so much, Erica. And we will talk again sometime.

Erika 17:44

It was great to see you.