Interview with Margaret Rodenberg, author of FINDING NAPOLEON

Such a fascinating discussion with Margaret about her lovely book, Finding Napoleon, published by She Writes Press earlier this month! It's about Napoleon's time during his final exile on the remote island of St. Helena in the south Atlantic—and the romance novel he partially wrote when he was a young soldier. That's the thing about historical fiction—you read beautiful stories, and you learn stuff!

Transcript

Susanne 0:27

I'm so delighted to be here today with Margaret Rodenburg, whose debut historical novel finding Napoleon just came out earlier this month and I've read it. And it's really lovely. And. Definitely unique in its way, and I'm very excited to talk to Margaret about it.

Margaret 0:45

hello. Hello. Nice to have nice to be here. I really appreciate you having

Susanne 0:49

me always a pleasure. As I say to people, this is completely for my own self-indulgence that I do this because I love talking to writers about their books, about their historical novels, especially. So we

Margaret 1:00

love talking about them, so it's easy.

Susanne 1:03

Isn't it? anyway so tell me a little bit about the Genesis of finding Napoleon hat. It's bookends Napoleon's life from his, when he was really young and to sort of his. Last days on St. Helena when he was exiled. So take it from

Margaret 1:20

there. Okay. so I first became interested in Napoleon when I was a young teen and I lived in France in the South of France for a couple of years with my us Navy family. So that was where I first heard about Napoleon and the story that a lot of Americans don't know about how he escaped from exile on Elba and which was a Mediterranean Island, just a couple days, sail from the South of France. And he came back to the South of France with 800 soldiers and four horses and a few Canon, but they just marched up to Paris 500 miles and he re declared himself emperor and the French gathered around him and supported him. But a hundred days later there was Waterloo. And obviously he lost that battle. And after that, he was exiled to St. Helena Island in the South Atlantic 5,000 miles from Paris and someplace. No one has ever escaped from so years and years later, we moved forward. many years, 40 years. And I came across a mention of the fact that Napoleon, when he was 26, had tried to write a romantic novel. And those pieces of the novel still existed. The pages of it it wasn't a full novel, it was more or less the story arc that he'd written down over about 15 pages and he kept it with him all his life. He even took it with him to St. Helena Island. So that enthralled me immediately and brought back those early feelings about that. I'd had a admiring Napoleon before I knew a lot about him. So I immediately vowed to write. To finish that book for him. And it then took me a while because I didn't know how to write fiction. I'd always planned to write fiction because like most of us authors, I'd been a reader all my life and I'd always wanted to be a writer. so I thought this was a great time to do that. So I said about learning to write. I try, I wrote a different novel instead of course, first of all, I wrote a bunch of short stories and then I came back eventually to Napoleon about actually 10 years ago. and at the time all I planned to do was finished Napoleon story, which was called C L I S S O N. Originally it was clean. the woman's name? Gleason was the hero's name. but at one point in Napoleon's life, he crossed out a huge and just made the title son. He also took out the happy part in it and took those pages out of the novel and renumbered all the other ones. But so I was going to right that story. But as I started to go about doing that, I decided that it really needed to be written from. Napoleon's own point of view. He needed to finish it, not me. And to do that, I had to learn a whole lot more about Napoleon and to understand him and what I, and I said about doing my love history. So I said, About doing a lot of research. And what I found most interesting about him was not those middle years of geopolitics and Wars and who moved, what troops, where during what battle, none of which is particularly important to me or interesting to me, but instead how he Rose out of nowhere as a young course, again and in a very short order, by the time he was 30, he was ruling France. And then not that many years later, he was on his way, what 18 years later or so he was, had defeated. So this star rises up and it falls relatively quickly and in time in historical time and the very end of his life, how he felt about it. What had happened during those years of exile, his last love affair that he had there and how he looked back on his life. What made the power and what was left after the power was gone was what was important to me. And that's what I wanted to capture in the novel.

Susanne 5:32

Yeah, you do a really great job of showing us this aging quote, unquote, Napoleon. Cause he's not all that old, but he's obviously not completely well, but it's so believable. That he would have felt the way he felt in all of this sort of sides in his life. And so his he's really smart and also in a certain way, really caring, which I thought was interesting. now. I think that you were really brave in the way you structured the novel, because instead of just doing like big chapters, like this is Napoleon's novel, this is the present day. You've woven it throughout and snippets. So can you talk a little bit about how you decided to do that?

Margaret 6:16

sure. And. I didn't set aside to do that exactly like that in the beginning. Of course, that, wasn't how I originally wrote the novel. But what I originally started with was two threads. It has now three threads. And as you say, most of those threads show up in sections in each chapter. The three parts of it are that are Napoleons, which is a third person looking at the word world his world around him and taking action in St. Elena to still achieve his goals. some of them large goals, some of them just maintaining his dignity and maintaining the entourage. Around him, his small court that he, that has come with him to St. Elena and making sure that they all are still there in his service and in their own service. So that's one part I did try to ride Napoleon once in, in first person, but that wouldn't be right. so second section of that is Napoleon's novel itself. So as Napoleon. Is spending time on St. Elena he's going through his novel and he's enlarging it. And now it's not it's not just a soldier's love story as it was originally when he started to write it when he was 26. Now it's being written really as his origin story, what he would like to project as his origin story. And it's a message for the young son who was taken from him when he was exiled. and actually hadn't seen the boy since he was three. and he was, this was his only legitimate era. He loved this child deeply. he divorced Josephine in order to marry a woman who could give him a child. when Josephine couldn't give him an heir though he continued to love her and they stayed friends and At least from his point of view, they did. so you've got that story, which is romantic. It's an older story. It's written in a very different point of view, a very different kind of language than it's a little bit older language, more like what you might find and what Napoleon Loveland Polian loved novels. He loved he loved Gerta. and so he loved the to read romantic novels. So I wanted to write it like that and to use some of his cadence in it. it also has in that section, it ha I use not just. Not just words from what he wrote that I enlarge on greatly. But I also bring in other writing of his short stories that he wrote a love letters that he wrote to other people mostly things that he read when he was quite young. and he used to write romantic love letters to both of his wives of over time. and also to to a woman, he was semi fiance to before Josephine. So that's that again is a third person story from really pin the point of view of cliffs on the hero. and it's him growing up and becoming a hero. Then the third section is, comes from Napoleon's last lover. Who's a little known character a real person Alveen Dumont Alon, she and her husband accompanied Napoleon into exile on St. Elena and very quickly there on the voyage. She became a lover of his, of Napoleons with the knowledge of her husband and. Certainly in my novel, I make it quite complicit. they were, the mantle lawns were were people of ambition always poor, always in trouble and particularly Charles, a husband. But I write that from Al Bean's point of view, first person, and that section, she originally, when I wrote the book was a much smaller character in it. But as, as I wrote the story, she became larger and larger. in the story. And in fact, her character arc extends beyond Napoleon's. In the story. So it's three very different parts. And I hope it works.

Susanne 10:22

I loved Al being, I loved her her sort of scrappiness her looking after herself, but also having this kind of affection for Napoleon. And I also liked the device of having this, the other young girl read the book aloud to him, which was a nice way to make it fit into the narrative. I thought.

Margaret 10:42

so she's also a real character that young woman, Betsy.

Susanne 10:46

Yeah. And talking about the whole question of point of view, really interesting, because I find the same thing. I. Hesitate to write male voices in the first person, I feel very confident writing them in a third person. I feel like I can go there, but I think it can be difficult to write a males man's voice in the first person for a woman, although many do plenty do. But one thing I was interviewing. Erica Roebuck about her book, the invisible woman, the a few weeks ago. And we talked about this, about the whole question of whether to use first person or third person when you're writing historical fiction. And what's so interesting, is that what she said about her heroine? Because she did not leave anything really in her own voice, behind all the information about her was. From other sources. So Erica didn't feel like she had actually had an idea, a real handle on what her voice would be. So she chose to write third person present tense for her and. But you, on the other hand, you have all of this stuff that's in Napoleon's voice. and it comes through because of the writing because of the, his novel. But, so can you just talk a little bit more about what made you come to that?

Margaret 12:16

So I didn't do Napoleon in first-person no, I don't think, I don't think it was because he was a man that I chose not to do it. I would S I think I felt pretentious doing it. if if you're gonna understand that to, to be able to be that far inside of his head, I felt a little more comfortable using, and I still feel like I got inside of his head, but I felt a little more comfortable. Using his words where I could use them, even though they might not have been used in the same place or the same time that I use them or to the same person, but I often made use of his words or varied his words, but I had His there's so much written about Napoleon. And about the time on St. Elena, everybody on St. Lena wrote their memoirs, including Napoleon, but they all also lied. They all did it all. Almost everybody did it in incredibly self-serving way, but understandably too, because. At the time they went, when they went back to France, they, it was difficult for them. They had to now adjust or be allowed in by the bourbon Kings. And so there had been a major change. So now you wrote against Napoleon then if you wrote it 20 or 10 years later, you're back writing. Good things about Napoleon, what happened. so everybody lied one way or another. and I've read most of those. almost all of the various memoirs from that time. and some of them mashed and some of them don't, but I. I really got to feel like I knew Napoleon on St. Elena because I went there. so I said it's 5,000 miles from Paris. It's in the middle of the South Atlantic ocean and it's a little teeny, a British owned Island, a British territory still. There never were any real inhabitants originally of that. So there are no natives of St. Elena in the large historical sense, but the French still maintain. Three places there they own and maintain the building that Napoleon spent five years in the first place he stayed in where young Betsy was, where it was her family's house that he stayed in. And he became friends with this young young girl nothing near to be red in there at all. Some people write things in there that are not there, but I don't believe they're there at all. And then there's his original grave. And when I first was trying to write it before I went to St. Alina, I was having a hard time visualizing how he really felt there. but going to St. Elena and it, that the time I went there, it didn't even have an airport. Still had its airport. First airport didn't open until 2018. So I wrote, I, I flew to from the U S to South Africa and got on the only ship that went there on a regular basis, which was a British transport ship. The, that was solely for the purpose of supplying all things to St. Elena. If you lived on Saint Alena and you wanted a book from Amazon or a light bulb or a set of, I don't know C size batteries and the Island was out of it. You might have to wait six weeks until the ship came back. So it's quite quite a place to go there. So it's five days voyage to get to St. Elena out of on this transport ship carried about 60 passengers and the rest was all transported. No cars. If you wanted to go. Anything like that it was onboard board, that ship. and then I stayed there for nine days and then took the ship back. To, to South Africa. So it was quite a an adventure.

Susanne 16:01

Yeah. Yeah, And just, I just need to interrupt you there. I think that it's hard to imagine how remote this place was just reading about it, And even though your language is evocative and you really, you describe it and you mentioned 5,000 miles, I'm like, how far is that? Is it, so having been able to go there It's just, I'm just curious how many people actually live on St. Helena now,

Margaret 16:24

there are about 4,000 that live there, 4,000 4,500 that live there basis. What do they do? they're really wonderful people and they it's highly subsidized by the British government. So a good number of them are employed by the visit by the British government. So they. Move things around and they move a piece of paper over here and then the next person gets paid to move it over there. there's, a certain amount of that, there's no there's no industry, there's no beaches. they really want very much to build a tourist industry. the British would like to To divorce themselves somewhat from it and have it not be British territory, maybe over time. It'll but it can't subsist on its own by any means it's highly subsidized. So there are, there are restaurants for each other and bars for each other. There's, a gas station. So all the normal things you'd find in a small town. but it's still very heavily subsidized in terms of what the people are doing. Yeah, it's so

Susanne 17:24

fascinating. I could imagine a murder mystery on Sunday.

Margaret 17:29

You could, I there's a small prison there, but the people usually are, they usually don't have to stay during the day. They can say, instead of having to sleep there at night, because there's no way there hasn't been any way to escape. Yeah. 1200 miles off the coast of Africa and 1800 miles off the coast of South America. Yeah. So North or South. Yeah. So it said it, but it's a lovely place. And it's a volcanic Island. so that's why, so there's, it's very folded and green in places and other places it's planes that are dry and, very arid. there are trade winds coming in, lots of rain and fog. it's really a fascinating place. For

Susanne 18:19

two weeks I could imagine. And I'm sorry, I derailed you from talking about the book because I was so intrigued about this idea of St. Helena, but yeah. So where were we with the book? Oh, you were talking about first person and,

Margaret 18:33

right, I think I was the places that are still on St. Helena are, they are extremely evocative. And, I'm mostly talking to other writers, so they're going to understand I'm not a crazy person, but standing there in Longwood house, we're in Napoleon lived and died in a place that is now. It wasn't always, but it's now very well-maintained. Despite the difficulties of maintaining anything in St. Helena, which is terribly damp, where it is too, but you really felt the presence of the people who have been there. I'm sure you've been in historical places where you just felt. As though you had just walked into a place 200 years ago. Yeah. When I

Susanne 19:21

was doing my dissertation research I'm a music, college music historian, and I actually looked at real handle manuscripts, held them in. that's it's the same thing. It's he touched

Margaret 19:32

this, and you probably could hear the music in your head if you were looking at those. Yeah. The other thing that I got to do that was very inspiring. Is that the 15 pages or so that Napoleon wrote of this novel Cleese on that are now about a hundred pages in my book. they still exist. And most of them are in a Arizona, a library in in Poland because they were Polish diplomat, bought them and took them back to Poland. And that's where they stayed until they were rediscovered in the 1920s. but four of those pages were separated. And they belonged to a. a man named Dr. who is a collector of manuscripts among other things. And he had those, he lives in Santa Barbara, California. He had those pages in Santa Barbara and he allowed me to come there to his house. and he met me at the door and handed me the book with the in And sit here, go sit down and do whatever. You'd like, I said gloves or anything. He said, Nope. So he and my husband went off and talked and I just sat there with those pieces

Susanne 20:47

of paper surgical. Isn't it? the whole thing, people who don't write historical fiction or who aren't into it, don't understand the thrill of the research of actually digging things up and yeah. Being able to make a story out of it, So yeah. It's really lovely to hear all that. so this is your first novel and amazing accomplishment for that, for sure. and you're publishing it with, she writes press. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about the process about what made you decide to do that?

Margaret 21:20

Sure. so it's been awhile. I've been working on this novel for awhile and my very first what I thought was the first final of it. I finished about 2014 and in that novel it was it was very different than what I've been, what it is today. and it was much more. I would say it was much more in Napoleon's head. It did not have the Al bean sections as Al bean. with her point of view in it, she was still much further in the background. She was definitely a character in it. and it had, it was much more of an introspective novel with. Less action, less things happening. it wasn't, I someday I'll go back and sit down and read it again because I have I have a certain fondness of course, for that early draft. And I did get an agent for it, the very good agent who tried to sell it and wasn't able to, and it was, I think, because it was much more of a character study in a way than an active novel. and after he couldn't, after he couldn't sell it His he said to me, he says agents do. He said, Oh, just go park, just go write something else

Susanne 22:34

or break one. Like this. That's what I used to get from my agent here. Can you write something like this?

Margaret 22:41

I didn't say that it's a wonderful guy, but I, that wasn't what I wanted to do. So I said, let me take this back. Because I want to rework it and I'm not ready to give up on it. and he would have taken something new from me, but he felt like he had done what he could do on this one.

Susanne 22:59

I just have to say a word for agents. They have to make a living, so they have to be able to sell things. They, it depends. They depend on knowing what the market is and the market is mercurial. So

Margaret 23:11

just any little thing, I think that's a really good point to make. And I think that authors, particularly new authors often don't respect that they don't respect it. An agent's time and the fact that when they take you on, or if they haven't taken you on that, they're in essence, just working for free or on spec. And because you always hear new. new writers in particular saying why didn't the agent get back to me? Why didn't they give me a full analysis of this book and tell me why they didn't want to carry it? why should they, but we but it's hard. I think it's an important thing that you said. and I do respect, I very much respect with how they work. So I took it back and I reworked that I worked on another novel. I reworked this one again, and I really enhanced, I think both the action in the book without I hope W, but also I think I got into even a deeper point of view and in particular, without being and with the other character, cause there's a whole cast of characters in it. they actually, it's a very small cast compared to what was on say Delina. I had to cut out some great characters but and it also does less with Napoleons growing up. and gets him to being a teenager or a young man much more quickly. so I then so I took that back out again, after I finished it. And by the way, both of them won, they won prizes, from an unpublished writer prizes from the beginning. So I had great hopes for them though. so I got myself a different agent and she also, at the time I signed with her. I also was looking at, she writes press because I was ready to say, I'm not sure if I'm going to take the time to go with a traditional press or whether I want to work with something that is not faster, but maybe a little more certain that I can then I'll know more quickly how that it's going to go forward. As opposed to spending two years and then coming out with next to nothing or nothing. and I, she writes press was highly recommended to me. And I will say that from the start of working with them, they are people of such integrity. the The quality of the work that they do for you and the quality that they demand out of the books that they represent. you're sitting on a shelf with with people you're very proud to be with. so they're not totally exclusive, but they're careful, very careful, I think. And equally important is, and this was important to me. I'm a business person from my background and they have the right kind of distribution that allows you to get your books. Into places that maybe they might not get into, if you were in a small press or some other hybrid or self publishing. So I've been very lucky with this, that it's an, a number of bookstores. I just came out, but I've found it in a lot of bookstores. it's getting into libraries. I've, I'm really been happy with it because the terms and conditions under which they sell to. Two bookstores is what bookstores need to have in order for them to Oh, yes.

Susanne 26:26

Yeah. And you're articulating exactly the reasons that I've chosen to take the portraitist to, she writes press and I'm really looking forward to that. I have. Just barely started the process with them. They don't even have the final manuscript, but yeah. and the thing is too, I think the world of publishing has changed so much and in part, because the traditional publishing world is such a hit driven. Place. So that novels like yours or mine, which I had one agent say was maybe too quiet for the market. And it takes place during the French revolution. So I'm sitting here thinking I'm not sure what you mean

Margaret 27:08

by quiet. I've been reading that one as a matter of fact. It's great. The Paris affair. Is that the one? Yeah.

Susanne 27:14

Oh no, it's not that one. that's the one I did before. Oh, thank you for reading it. That's an historical mystery. This is, this is the portrait. It's the one I'm doing with I had some, I had queried it a bit. Before I decided it's not worth it. And also, my good friend, Michelle Cameron is also a friend of mine too. Yes, she's awesome. And I've talked to her a lot about it and so I figured it was time, but anyway yeah,

Margaret 27:39

I, you do have to, and it's important for authors who are looking at where are they going to. Try to place their books. People do have to understand that there's a real cost involved. Oh yeah. Working with a hybrid press and that you need to be thoughtful about what you think I can afford. And it's going to cost you more than you think it is. If you want to. I wrote the book. Yes. So you just, you don't go into, I don't think you go into a hybrid press expecting you. Shouldn't go into it expecting to make. Maybe not to make any money, maybe not to make a lot. Certainly not to make a lot of money. And if you do, bless you, I'm happy for you. That's wonderful. But you're going to be the exception and that's not just, she writes press that's.

Susanne 28:27

Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. And the point is to, it's really a question of what your priorities are, and I would, I always encourage, I'm a certified book coach and I always encourage my clients of fiction or whatever to. If they feel they have the time going query it, you just don't know you could hit the market, right. Everything. And it's always nice to have someone else pay you for your book, rather than having to subsidize the cost of producing it. But you also relinquish a lot of control. Yeah. there are trade offs there, totally trade offs. And for me at my time of life, I just decided I want this book out there.

Margaret 29:05

Yeah. And I S I started to mention that at the time I, at the time I was querying for this book the second time around and decided I was going to go with, she writes press was just the time that an agent. Wanted to take it on. So they haven't pretty much at the same time. I really worked things out with them so that my agent was able to continue working some on it until we came to a point where I said, no, now we're not, I'm staying with, she writes, press and going with it. But obviously when that, in that kind of a situation, you're. Honest with both sides so that everybody knows what's going on. but the advantage to that, my agent is still with me. She's wonderful. She has sold a couple of she's selling international rights. she sold it, the audio rights. So I'll have an audio book soon. Awesome. and she'll be there. I hope for me when when my next book is ready, which is also a French revolution. Awesome.

Susanne 30:00

Awesome. Yes. Even our phones, I'm real, I'm a real Francophile. So anyway, but so is there anything else about the book that you'd like to say that I haven't thought of asking you anything you want readers to know?

Margaret 30:13

I think what I would say about the book is that There that was what I think is part of what's interesting about the book is that is, is also how I interpret. And I think this is way about interesting about historical fiction is how I interpret the record, the historical record draw inferences. From things that are known or not known. And, part of the fun of, as you said, the research or finding these little snippets and saying if this happened here and this happened here, maybe these things are related. And if I draw lines between these various aspects it, you can fill in. Really good story in the interstices of the story. so I think it's I think it's a book about power, getting it, losing it and living with, or without it. that's my interpretation of it. And I quote a poem in the beginning. but not everybody reads that I know, but it's you want me to read it aloud?

Susanne 31:15

Oh, sure. Why don't I need it aloud. Hang on a minute here. Let me find it by way of gaining. You have to Shanko, right? Yes. Power is only a small blessing. Bad for the nerves. We should be creating masterpieces masterpieces.

Margaret 31:36

Yeah. So that's what I wanted to say about the book and that's and I think that's what I hope in the end. People get out of it. Now they may just get story out of it, which is great. And maybe they'll get a slightly different opinion about Napoleon who's. has many sides to him. Yes. Not all good. Believe me, but yeah many sides. And he's a complex person

Susanne 31:57

and you did a really good job of. Presenting him as complex. And I highly recommend the book and I hope people will go out and get it and I will put links and all that sort of thing in the show notes. when I put it up, put this. Interview up. And I just, I can't say how great it's been to talk to you and to get to know you.

Margaret 32:16

Oh, I have. I've enjoyed it thoroughly. Thank you, Suzanne. It's really a it's fun. And it's a great thing that you do for historical writers. and I am I tell you, I would, I. Look forward to, I'm hoping this evening, I'm going to have time, a chunk of time to sit down and finish them. The the Paris affair. Oh,

Susanne 32:34

Theresa is just, I just love that character and I'm working on another one, another adventure for her too. So you're left

Margaret 32:42

with the character comes through.

Susanne 32:44

Ah, thank you. Thank you so much. Anyway, I'm going to say goodbye and I hope you have a lovely. A day and we'll talk again. I'm sure,

Margaret 32:54

absolutely. Absolutely. Take care. You too.