Interview with Margaret McNellis, author of THE RED FLETCH

Margaret and I have books coming out within days of each other and are having a joint Zoom launch party! On September 21, at 7pm Eastern. Please join us (you have to register first). Our books both take place in the Middle Ages. The Red Fletch is Margaret's inventive and compelling retelling of the Robin Hood legend, with a feisty heroine who is an expert archer. We had a fun conversation about research and characters and witchcraft and Tarot!

You'll find Margaret's book here, and mine here!

Interested in finding out more about becoming an Author Accelerator Certified Book Coach? Go to BookCoaches.com.

Transcript

Susanne 0:27

So I'm here today on a very hot sticky day in the Northeast, but it's not just us. It's hot all over the place, but I'm here with Margaret McNellis author book, coach, and witch, and I am so excited to talk to her. All of those things, but mostly the book because, actually the two of us are doing a book launch together on September 21st because our books are not unrelated. They both take place in the middle ages. Only at Margaret's is in England and minus. Languedoc. So, We just in her book is Yia mine isn't so that's enough for me, Margaret, why don't you tell us a little bit about the book. The title and the title is the red Fletch. Let me just put that on,

Margaret 1:16

go for it. Thank you so much for welcoming me on your show. so the red Fletch is the first in the heroes of Sherwood trilogy. It's a Robin hood retelling that focuses on, an original, main character. Alice, Alice is kind of interesting because she's a little bit like. Chaucer and that she has access to both, the peasant class and the ability because of family tides. So, she's, in a unique place to, to be involved with Robin hood and his, his crew. she starts out initially being on good terms with Robin, but then he and, her brother leave for the crusades. And when he comes back and her brother doesn't, she starts to be not as happy with Robin. It goes from there.

Susanne 2:10

Yeah. So, so, I mean, I loved this character named Alice, a L Y S, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she, she just fascinated me because she had so many aspects of her personality. Did you base her on anybody in real life or was, you know, our characters or something that, that you're really interested in?

Margaret 2:35

So she has kind of an interesting provenance. years ago I used to volunteer at the Robin hood Renaissance festival, which was held in the town next to mine at the time. They've since moved it. And, I wasn't an actor in it, but I have tried the boards before, but I was, I was working at the ticket booth, but they encouraged us to come up with care. That we could play, you know, that we're in line with these in this time period. not that as a Renaissance fair. They're not known for being historically accurate. They're just fun and yeah, it's all good, but

Susanne 3:07

legs, right? Yeah. Remind me to tell you a story about Turkey legs after you finished. Go

Margaret 3:13

ahead. I came up with Alice. I always, I liked the name and the spelling of it. The medieval spelling of it. and you know, I, I was friends with the actor who was playing sir guy of Gisborne. So, you know, to, to give her that kind of connection into that other world, that she otherwise would not have any access to. it always fascinated me and she just stuck with me for years. And then when I started to write this book, I was like, it's gotta be Alice. She's gotta be, you know, at the center of this,

Susanne 3:48

do you think there's anything like, I mean, I, people sometimes ask me and I just, I don't know, it doesn't sort of enter my head, but, it feels like you have this kind of empathy with this character. And do you think, you know, maybe there's a little bit of previous life in there?

Margaret 4:04

Oh yeah, definitely. I, I believe in reincarnation, Full bore. So I, I definitely think that I do have, in another book that I'm working on a character that I, I encountered in the past life regression. So yeah, I think that these things that come back to us or memory is stored away in the deepest parts of our brain that, we don't necessarily have access to in the way that we do our consciousness in this life. But I, I think they come out in other ways.

Susanne 4:32

Yeah. I mean, I kind of avoid thinking about those things myself, because it's just, it just makes my brain hurt. But, but I appreciate, I I'm always interested when people say things like that. Yeah. And they do, they are like, this was me, another life. you know, I mean, I have periods I'm drawn to and who knows, you know, 18th century, the middle-aged is France for sure. So anyway, it's just, it's just interesting to me.

Margaret 5:00

Yeah. I, I definitely think that. And I think that there are, yeah. That we're not drawn to for the same reasons. Maybe we had a past life that didn't go so well. And we're not really eager to kind of relive that. I kind of think that that's why I'm really not into world war II fiction. Oh

Susanne 5:13

my gosh. I was about to say the

Margaret 5:15

same thing. Maybe I was in the ward. It didn't go well, I don't know.

Susanne 5:21

I don't know either. I really don't. yeah, so. So how, tell him, tell me a little bit about the Genesis of this particular story. I mean, we know about the Renaissance fair thing and Alice, but, you had a very, you started out in a very different place with your writing. Let's sort of backpedal talk about how you got to, how you got to be sitting where you are now with this book under your belt. So to speak.

Margaret 5:47

It's a long road. I'm happy to share though. I started out writing fanfiction, mostly Harry Potter fan fiction. I actually wrote a book length, one that involved then, Harry Potter and his friends discovering that, animals that could fly capacity, the veil in the department of mystery. So they send it's a comedy. They send serious connection. With Hedwig. He turns into a giant Canary escapes, the veil, but then he's stuck as a giant Canary for the rest of the book. And it's just ridiculous. I wish I still had it if I had deleted it by mistake somehow and it's gone, but it lives on in my memory. and just the thought of it is just so ridiculous. but then I went from that to writing horror, which was kind of a big leap. As well, but you know, I wanted to start writing original fiction, and original characters, nothing against fanfiction. I think it's a really great way to learn how to write, you know, because someone's already done some of the work for you and you can just kind of slip in and, and learn other things as you go. And I can have this weird thing that like when every, when all the world falls in love with something, I start to lose interest. So, you know, I watched the walking dead for a little bit when it came out, but then it was zombies everywhere and I got kind of bored with them. and I was, I fell in love with historical fiction, kind of at the same time. And it was, Ken Follett's pillars of the earth that flipped that switch. Which what a great book to flip that switch.

Susanne 7:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Margaret 7:11

I had tried being pillars in high school for an extra credit project and I was not into it. It just turned me off completely, but I was a kid, you know, and then, I was working as a temp in New York city and for training for like two months, I had to take the train in every day. So I was on the train for five hours. And nothing better for that than a Kindle. I mean, I wouldn't know. I wanted to log the 1000 page book on the train in August to New York. talk about heat, right. And, and I just tore through it and same with world without end. And then I, I wrote an email to Mr. Follett thinking he's never going to reply to this, but I have to tell him how much I loved his book and how it inspired me. Within eight hours. He brought me back this long email about his process and like how it took him 10 years to write pillars. And, you know, it was, it was so encouraging that I was like, all right, I can do this. Maybe not 1000 page epics. That's not really. Where I am retired to get 1000

Susanne 8:12

page epics published these days anyway,

Margaret 8:17

even in India, it's expensive.

Susanne 8:19

Yeah. And you have to be someone like Ken Follett to get away with it really. So, anyway,

Margaret 8:24

sorry. That's fine. That's fine. And you know, then I watched the miniseries and they're different. They made some changes for, you know, length and making it work for the sprain. but I love those too. And. Reading his books, especially the Kingsbridge series. It just feels like slipping into home for me. So, when, when it came time to write a historical fiction book that I knew I wanted to share with the world, I've written others that are probably gonna spend the rest of my life on the shelf. I knew I had to go And, you know, I thought about what I love most about medieval history and Robin hood came immediately to mind. It's one of my favorite legends. Yeah. Yeah.

Susanne 9:07

There have been some really wonderful adaptations of that for TV and some really horrible ones. I have to ask you. And I mean, I've never understood why people like Kevin Costner. I don't think he can act his way out of a paper bag.

Margaret 9:24

Honestly, Kevin Costner does. Okay. In westerns. Other than that, he was never Robin hood to me. Oh my gosh. No, never, ever. Was he Robin hood? there was a great series over him.

Susanne 9:37

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. British series Robin hood on it

Margaret 9:42

and I've watched it so many times. Really

Susanne 9:44

good. But let's get back to your book, you know, so, the character of Alice is really interesting because, she's, she's tough, but she's sh and she's, and she's intelligent, but she has these blind spots. Can you talk a little bit about her as a character?

Margaret 10:06

Sure, sure. So originally, the main thing with Alice was that she. Was incapable of making decisions. That was my original kind of leaning with her, the problem with that when I got to writing and she had no agency. Yeah. She's got to

Susanne 10:26

make this an, that one of the foundations of our book coaching that we do, that the character has to make a decision, you know, all that kind of thing. Yeah.

Margaret 10:33

Yeah. So the book was originally about her learning, how to make decisions. And I was like, well, that's not really an exciting story to read because, so I was like, so I still want her to struggle with decision making. So I'm going to make it so that she has trouble making the right decision. And that her loyalty is kind of in question, even in her own mind a little bit, because you know, she, she wants so badly to bring her family back together. That is, the core of her world. And she wants to get her family back home to their village, everything feels like it's been turned upside down for her. since her brother went away to war and, I think by, by giving her that driving force, It adds a little bit more heart to her originally, she was kind of cold and calculating. I worked with another book coach. I gave them my, manuscript for their practicum. And the first thing they came back with was, did you want her to be like a sociopath? I was like, no, this is a very old version in the book. I was just like, no, that's not what I'm going for. so things have to change. So I did a lot of work to soften her and her. Her desire to restore her family and her friendship with Maryanne. She originally did not get along with her at all. but those two things really kind of softened her edges a little bit. So the toughness in her was always, yeah. You know, she was always willing to do what had to be done. She's a fighter, she's not a squeamish person in most cases. and she lives in a rough world. I mean, 12th century.

Susanne 12:14

Not great. Not great. Yeah. That's especially for females. Yeah. So it's a tough talking about her being tough. She is a really good Archer. Now tell me, what do you have you done archery and stuff yourself.

Margaret 12:31

And so originally in an earlier version of the book, Robin was a horrible Archer and it was like the secret that the married men. You know, from everybody else. I thought so too, but people were like this too far from the legend. It's going to throw readers. And I had to come to terms with that, but that actually came from when I was volunteering at the Renaissance festival, the actor who played Robin and I, we used to have a little mini archery tournaments between the two of us. Like every day we would meet. You know, during my break and just shoot a few arrows against each other, actually into each other at the target, basically both of us facing the same direction. and I I've always really liked our tree there's there's you know, something about it. It's just such an ancient. and I don't always think of it as warfare people use it for entertainment. They, or they use it to hunt yeah. To subsist. So, you know, it has so many, applications and I do have a boat and arrows and occasionally I'll shoot. it's just a lot of fun, I I've, I've always enjoyed it. And to me, especially for where Alice ends up. And I don't want to spoil it at the end of the book, but you've read it. She had to be an Archer.

Susanne 13:49

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's really interesting because archery is one of those things, right. Remained kind of all right. For women to take part in through the Victorian age, there was that whole sort of Diana thing I think was, was partly, it was partly, I also did archery at summer camp when I was little. And so it's like, oh yeah. And I, there's something very physical and technical about this feeling, you know? I don't think my women are our chairs, but there are. Archers. So, and the thing that people don't realize is that the crossbow was not invented until was it the 14th century

Margaret 14:28

or the 15th? yeah. Cause I looked that up to make sure I remember it's definitely after 12th and 13th, early 14th. So, crossbows were invented, around the seventh century, BC in China. And then they made a decrease on fourth century BC, but England wasn't using them. and its army is they, they held off for a long time favoring the long boat, which, they're so famous for. But, also, I don't think the crossbow ever made the leap from military application to, you know, to social use in the way that, that, a standard or long, but what of, so. You know, I, I elected to keep it out of my book. entirely I thought that for the most part, it would, it would, kind of muddy the waters on what the bow on what archery means to Alice. It's her way into, into a path of her choosing really it's it's it's what enables her to do what she wants in the world as much as possible.

Susanne 15:29

Okay. So let's talk about the thing that people always talk about with historical fiction, which is the research. What kind of research did you do for this? I mean, aside obviously there's cause it's, it's a legend. It's not like history. So how did you approach that?

Margaret 15:45

So my first step was to read the original. Of Robin hood, which was a challenge there in middle English. So this is before the standardization of spelling and grammar. the same word can be spelled. Eight different ways in the same in a single ballot. So it was definitely challenging. but I enjoyed it and what was interesting to me is Robin's a little bit of a different character in the original balance. And we've come to know him. He's a little bit coarser. he challenges people to fight in order for them to join his band. He's a little bit, More marshal really, which is not surprising given the fact that he was a soldier in the middle ages. I looked into scholarship about the legends and the ballads, and I was surprised to learn that, a lot of scholars think. He actually, you know, the legend came about well before the crusades and that it was kind of repurposed as sort of a propaganda during that time or shortly after it. So it, it was kind of interesting to me. And, in earlier versions, Robin was a lot coarser. He was more violent. He was. He was kind of like this person's a problem. We just have to end them. So I kind of talked him down a little bit too, because I felt like that would be too jarring without my readers having also read the ballots on scholarship that supported it. so that's kind of where I started my research. I, I was fairly comfortable in the media of a world, from my art history degree, I learned a lot about. Medieval England than Europe, Western Europe. and then I also, one of my favorite books was the year, 1000. I don't know if you've read this book. It's fabulous. It's fabulous. It just, I mean, it's obviously it's almost 200 years before Alice's story, but, it gives you kind of the everyday life aspect. yeah.

Susanne 17:38

I have a book like that called Yeah. Yeah.

Margaret 17:42

Cool. Yeah. and that was, that was a really important book, for the story. the great courses, there was one called the other side of history, which starts, in prehistory and goes up through the medieval era. so the lecture on medieval life, I enjoyed that. That was, that was useful. You know, I spent a lot of time poking around the website for the Nottingham castle museum, which is of course very different now from what it was in the 12th century, it was, they had some good resources. That was nice. especially because I couldn't really get over there, during COVID, especially. and I tend to, I tend to backload most of my research I do just enough at the beginning. To get into the story. And then I fix all the mistakes later in editing, that's what I do most of my research. So,

Susanne 18:31

do you ever find that that makes you have to dramatically change the story when you do it

Margaret 18:35

that way? Sometimes it does, but for me the best way for me to get to know my characters and how they relate interpersonally is to just write a draft and. If I need to change their circumstances to SU history, To me that's easier than, than, doing the research ahead of time. Because the other thing I'll struggle with is all info dump, like crazy. If I did the reason I'm proud of the research, I want everyone to know about all the things I learned that are cool. So I'll, I'll just load that in

Susanne 19:09

author's note. Author's note author.

Margaret 19:13

Exactly. And I think mine is a few pages long. There's a note on language.

Susanne 19:20

but. Yeah,

Margaret 19:21

I, I did a lot of that, sort of research, the editing phases. For me, you know, Alice, I knew, but to get to know the other characters and to get a feel for how I could kind of, especially with the characters who already exist in the legend, make them my own and develop them further. Like, I feel like I've Gisborne is never developed enough in any representations of the legend and he's so fascinating to me. So I

Susanne 19:48

love her. Yeah, I loved that. He was, you know, this complicated slightly. I was never quite sure whether he was a good guy or a bad guy, which, which I loved, and also he was in his being related to Alice was, was also this sort of interesting twist because it gave her divided loyalties all over the place, so. Let's go, let's dive away from this now. And I want you to talk a little bit about being a witch. How does this affect your writing? How does it, did it come into play at all with this book?

Margaret 20:22

So, not so much this book on a story level, it will affect others on story levels that I have planned. but it's. Definitely affected me as a writer. I have long suffered from imposter syndrome, which I think hits almost every writer on and off throughout their career. but I've, I've been writing historical fiction for almost 20 years and this is the first time I'm putting a book out in the world. Like I said, I've written several books that will live forever on the shelf because they're just not up to my standards and diving into. Being a witch and into a lot of what's called shadow work, really helped me, that in combination with them becoming a book, coach helped me get past that enough to, to get this book moving. so it, it affected me in that way. And I'm actually writing a course called weave witchcraft into your writing, that kind of combined the two, And, it's more like, working with planetary energies to give myself confidence where I need it, or, I, I used, astrological timing to choose when to release my book. In part, some of it was industry knowledge. Some of it was logical. It kind of a combination of the two,

Susanne 21:45

but you never know. Maybe the industry thing is related to the astrological could be,

Margaret 21:49

they could be, you know, I learned that, for an indie debut. It's not good to have it come out between October and December, because it's the holiday rush and, the traditional books. And I was like, all right, I'm not going to do that with book one because nobody knows who I am yet.

Susanne 22:07

Hopefully a few more people will know after this podcast.

Margaret 22:13

So, I decided it had to be September cause it was going to come out this year, no matter what I wasn't going to let it wait another year. And. so I looked at that I have this, I use this daily planetary guide and I'll show you I'll show you another video, but. And it gives me the astrological layout of the day, basically. So what does

Susanne 22:36

that mean? I've, you know, I mean, I know you don't have time to explain it all, but tell me how that sort of works.

Margaret 22:41

Sure. So, I'll T I'll turn to the date of my book release, which is the 18th of September. And, on this date, for example, Merck, the moon is in Aquarius, which is like, it's a good time to have something new. Right. What's, what's better for that than, you know, a new book. And it's lined up nicely in the sky with mercury, which is in the sign of Libra and Libras all about balancing the scale. And, things working out for the best, justice, all that stuff. and mercury is an important planet for writers because it's all about communication, right? Yeah. He's the messenger,

Susanne 23:22

right? Yeah, exactly.

Margaret 23:24

Also the trickster, but. To me, nothing's better for a pot reversal than a little bit of, trickster energy. so, in looking at what would be going on in the skies in September, that was the best option. So that's what I went with.

Susanne 23:42

got it. Can you look up the 21st and see what that is? Because that's the day my book comes out.

Margaret 23:50

Yeah. Let's see what's happening on that day. Okay. So the moon will be an Aries, which is a fire sign. And now that could be good. That could be good. let's see. What is mercury up to mercury will still be in Libra. It will be in a storm. Which some people think. So a storm happens before and after a retrograde. And some people have difficulty with mercury retrograde and storms, but I don't think writers tend to do as much because mercury is kind of like a patron, a lot of that activity. So

Susanne 24:28

I'm sort of pushing my chances a little bit by waiting until the 21st. Right.

Margaret 24:33

I think you're,

Susanne 24:34

you're close, but you're okay. Good to know. Good to know. Yeah. I know I have this sort of strange relationship with this kind of thing that in that. I don't, I don't want to not believe it. You know what I'm saying? And have my, my logical mind says, oh, come on. But then you go back and you look at how, the ancients used these things and, sure. If they were operating in a sense from a place of. Quote, unquote ignorance, according to today's standards, but, but they did figure an awful lot out using those, using that information that they had the astrological and astronomical and all that kind of thing. And then there's taro, which is, which is kind of, Spookily accurate.

Margaret 25:26

Yeah, it does seem to know exactly. What's what, I love taro. I love it so much. I'm an addict. I just keep collecting decks, which, you know, thank you for sending me the one you sent me. I know

Susanne 25:37

I actually have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 decks myself. Nice. But I only really use one every day.

Margaret 25:46

Yeah, I think that that's fair there. You know, like I have the Jane Austen deck and I don't particularly like to use it, but sometimes I'll just take it out and look at the art. Yeah. The artwork is pretty and Sunday I'd like to just have the whole deck framed, you know, and hang on. so I feel like they kind of all have their purpose. You know, there's a reason that we're drawn to them and there might be a day when you pull out the deck that almost never gets used. Exactly. Hmm. And I the type of witchcraft I practice is solo, intuitive, eclectic witchcraft, which is kind of like cafeteria belief. Right. I get to choose what I'm going to believe in from multiple traditions. and I kind of feel like the way. These beliefs work is where they give us comfort and where they help us, become better versions of ourselves where they help us, make decisions that lead us down a path we want to walk. There's no harm in believing in it, and, None of us are really going to know until the end of the flight time. What's what, if anything, so, and I've had people say, well, what if there's just a Bolivian? Isn't that I'm not gonna, yeah.

Susanne 26:52

Religion fulfills that function for a lot of people, obviously. I think people have a right to believe in whatever helps them personally and yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that wasn't oh, sorry,

Margaret 27:06

go ahead. Existed. This used to be a game and for entertainment, so, take it, don't, don't go out and like change your entire life based on the card. I don't use them in that way. It's just kind of like here. The paths for self-improvement available to you. Here are things you can do to, to get to this outcome. and there are, there are people who, if they pull a certain card they'll up in their whole life, That's for them. I, I definitely agree with you. People can and should believe whatever they want to make life more joyful or meaningful.

Susanne 27:41

My friend, Chris, a wild hair has, is also a terror practitioner and, and, Her take is that those cards only reflect what is the circumstance right now? Like it's just a reflection of that day and the next day could be completely different, you know? Yeah. Would argue against like upending your whole life, just because you pulled a card,

Margaret 28:03

definitely. It's kind of an interesting art, cause you're, you're looking at a possible future, but it's just a possible future. It's not nothing in the future is ever set in stone because it hasn't happened yet. So, it's always very interesting to do readings for folks who maybe haven't had anything before. They've had a very different kind of reading, and the tarot cards are just a tool. They're just, it's a visual tool. Really what, what the reading is about is about empathy and intuition. Like, I mean, I, I can get just as much if I'm sitting with someone who's open, open-minded open-hearted I can get just as much about the cards.

Susanne 28:42

If you think about it, there's also an element of therapy in there too. You know, of people who are good therapists who can read people or who, who, who will exude something that brings something out in other people too. And that's, it's very mysterious. It's, there's nothing kind of super scientific about it. and I think that's why that's why there's so much scope for different beliefs because we really can't explain everything. We really don't have access to the ultimate absolute truth about it.

Margaret 29:16

Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's true. But, I always kind of think of it as the things we think of as science were magic until we found a way to prove them. So is it just a matter of time before somebody proves. Empathy and intuition and finds a way to qualitatively measure it or quantitatively measure it. I don't know. but those are in my witchcraft practice, those end of my book, coaching. Those two qualities are really what I'm using. And it's just, it's, it's just working with energy from different natural resources, I don't, I don't Curtis our hex people. I D for me, that's not a path I want to walk for some people that's their thing, and I'm not going to judge them, but,

Susanne 29:57

power for good, right. It's not what it is. Use the power for. Good.

Margaret 30:00

So, you know, I, I, I don't personally perform that type of. witchcraft, but, and coming into it, it was, it was an interesting path because I was raised Roman Catholic. So there's a big difference between the two in some ways, and also in some ways, in

Susanne 30:20

other ways. Yes. Because there's a lot of sort of magical thinking and Catholicism, for sure.

Margaret 30:27

Yeah. I'm in transubstantiation right there. And. I would say one of the things that set me on this path was my art history degree. I learned so much about the Catholic church and studying art history of the Western world, which unfortunately is what it mostly was focused on there weren't at the time, a lot of, art, historical, survey classes or other classes in other traditions that I could, expose myself to. But, in learning so much about the business of the church, I started to go a different path because that was not a good fit for me.

Susanne 31:02

Of course my own feelings about being as that, my heroes in my, in my Languedoc novels are all cath RS. Yeah. So, you know, yeah. What can the church did to them and to their whole culture is just a crime.

Margaret 31:18

Really? It really is. It really is. And you know, you asked if like the witchcraft came into my book, sometimes it was a struggle. Alice is Christian, and she believes in heaven and hell. And she's very worried about what St Peter's going to say when she gets to heaven one day and, I, I have, my upbringing and understanding of the Christian religion and the Catholic religion to, to pull from that. But it also kind of, there were moments when it felt like it was at odds with who I am. As a person, I was like, this is, but there's a lot of times I tell myself, okay, you're not. You only played her at the Renaissance fair.

Susanne 32:02

It's true. But as historical novelists, I mean, I'm often having to have, you have characters who have these beliefs who are really religious and I'm not a religious person at all. So, but even the cath ours, it's not the same Christian belief, but they still. Those beliefs. But here's the thing. Now we're both book coaches and we're not going to talk a lot about this, but it's really interesting because, I felt like studying and becoming a book. Coach just really upped my game with my own work. Did you have the same experience?

Margaret 32:37

100%. and after I gave this manuscript for the red Fletch to another book, coach, I read blueprint of the entire thing. And

Susanne 32:49

let's talk about what the blueprint is a little tiny bit.

Margaret 32:52

So the blueprint for fiction is a 17 step process that kind of combines how. How the writer will see the book in the, in the marketplace and gives them, a foundation for, for putting the book together. it doesn't involve a whole lot of actual writing of the book. There's a couple of steps at the end where you write the beginning and ending scenes, but it's about seeing the book as a whole, you know, stepping back and seeing the forest and not just a few trees. And I really liked the duality of the approach of envisioning it in the marketplace while also kind of planning it because it forces the writer. I won't say force it invites. The writer is a better word, to not necessarily write to the marketplace. Don't believe that writers should have to do that, but it invites them to think about their ideal reader and how they're going to receive the text and, and interpret the texts and make it their own. Because I think that's what happens. Whenever we put a book out into the world, it stops being just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our name is on the cover and we created it. We hold the copyright, et cetera, but it also belongs to the readers who consume it. And, it's like looking at a painting, you know, we're going to come to it with our own experiences and biases and add our own meaning to it. And I think that's the beauty of art. so the blueprint really allows the writer to see both sides of that. Right. The other piece of it that I like is, and this is something I had already practiced through my education, but for a writer who's just, coming into creative writing or coming into writing a book, it allows them to see the book as a separate entity than themselves, so that when it comes time to get feedback on the writing, they can do so more objective.

Susanne 34:37

Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't really thought about that, but you're absolutely right. And I describe it when I'm working with, writers as just taking you off the page a little bit, so you can actually see You're not putting precious words on the page. You're actually looking at it from a bit of a distance, which, I find very helpful and I think a lot of writers do and it's helped me revise things majorly ever since then. Anyway, when I'm not going to go on and on about it. But, yeah, let's, let's just talk about, we'll, I'll put a link in the. Show notes for this. If I am hoping that I will get it up. Yes, I will. I will. It'll it'll be up the next few weeks, for our book launch party. Yes, it says, I know, I know it's going to be lots of fun. We're going to have giveaways. We'll probably be, we have, the lovely Lorraine Norwood is, are, is hosting us and she will interview us in a, in a very informal way. Maybe we'll need a little bit from our books and it'll be open Q and A's for the audience. And I just think it's going to be a lot of fun. It's cause you know what people who don't write or haven't put books out, don't realize that book publication day is like, a thud, nothing really happens. And you know, you want to say my work is out, but there's like, It's this quiet, quiet thing. It's just suddenly for sale out in the world, you know, there's suddenly on the internet. So I am sort of trying to do something by yourself, especially over zoom feels really kind of odd, like here, look at me. So I think that having, having two people who can enter into a dialogue and just, celebrate together. Is is really just so much better, which is why, as soon as I found out your book was coming out three days before mine, I was like, oh, by God, let's do that

Margaret 36:39

together. So I was so excited when you, when you asked me about that, I literally danced around the house.

Susanne 36:47

Well, I'm looking forward to people. I know getting to know you as a writer and I hope lots of people will, buy your book and read it because it's just delightful. And, yeah, and I will, I'm really looking forward to it. Volume to find out what happens because you leave it on a little bit of a cliffhanger.

Margaret 37:05

I do. I'm a little bit evil like that. Yeah.

Susanne 37:08

But you know, but enough was tied up so that it didn't feel like, like it didn't make me angry, angry, just like, Ooh, what's coming next. You know?

Margaret 37:20

So, and I crossed the 25,000 word threshold in my draft of book too. So. It's moving along and I'm looking at an early to mid 20, 23 release for it, probably because I like it. I have to give each book it's time, you know? but it is in the works,

Susanne 37:41

There are some, some writers who will write the entire trilogy or the entire series before putting the song so that they can release them really quickly. I don't know. I like to have some time for readers to respond, to a book and have the other one thing marinating in my head and do. Take what I've learned from the first one and apply it to the next one.

Margaret 38:03

Oh, definitely. I'm in the same boat. And then the same book and this first book has been a learning experience of the best kind, first foray into indie publishing definitely learned a lot. Yeah.

Susanne 38:15

Yeah. Anyway. All right. Well, thank you so much for indulging me with this, this little thing I do.

Margaret 38:23

Yeah. Well, thank you. I'm honored to have been a part of it.

Susanne 38:28

My pleasure. So that's again, this is Margaret McNellis and her book that the red Fletch is coming out on September 18th and we're having a party celebrating two books on September 21st. 2021.

Margaret 38:45

Yes.