PUSHBACK Talks

Displacement by Design: A Veteran Advocate's Enduring Fight for Palestine

• WG Film • Season 8 • Episode 16

Share episode

What happens when international law exists on paper but not in practice? This week, Fredrik Gertten and Leilani Farha speak with Allegra Pacheco, an American human rights lawyer who has dedicated her career to protecting vulnerable Palestinian communities in the West Bank. As Chief of Party of the Norwegian Refugee Council-led West Bank Protection Consortium, Allegra sees the realities of Area C in the West Bank, where over 600,000 Israeli settlers live in communities deemed illegal under international law while Palestinians face severe restrictions on movement, construction, and daily life.

Together with Fredrik and Leilani, Allegra discusses what it will take to protect the occupied Palestinian territory. How might private security forces protect Palestinian communities? What leverage does the European Union actually possess? And why has the international community failed to enforce its own legal rulings? As the opportunity to protect a future for Palestine seems to dwindle, Allegra's perspective challenges us to think critically about what it will take to end one of the world's most protracted conflicts, and what it means to have hope in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds.

Support the show

Kirsten McRae:

In the West Bank's Area C a crisis has been unfolding for decades. This territory, comprising 60% of the resource rich West Bank was meant to be a return to Palestinian control as of 1999 yet today, it hosts over 600,000 Israeli settlers in communities deemed illegal under international law, while Palestinian residents face increasing pressure to leave their homes. The numbers tell a stark story. Since the 1990s the settler population has quadrupled, while Palestinians in Area C navigate a labyrinth of restrictions, a two tiered road system that limits their movement, a permit regime that makes building nearly impossible, and the constant threat of home demolition. What was once intended as a brief transitional agreement has become a 30 year reality of separation and displacement. Our guest today is Allegra Pacheco, human rights lawyer and Chief of Party of the West Bank protection Consortium. Since her days as a student activist at Columbia University through to her current work with the Norwegian Refugee Council, Allegra has dedicated her career to protecting vulnerable Palestinian communities from forced displacement and settler violence in today's episode of Pushback Talks, Allegra shares with Fredrik and Leilani the urgent need for practical protection measures and international accountability before the possibility of a viable Palestinian state disappears entirely. This is Pushback Talks.

Fredrik Gertten:

I'm Fredrik Gertten and I'm the filmmaker,

Leilani Farha:

and I'm Leilani Farha and I'm the advocate,

Fredrik Gertten:

and this is Pushback Talks. And we keep rolling and rolling this podcast, not because we make any money out of it, but because we love to be informed, and it makes us talk to each other. Our film push premiered in 2019 and I made another film since then, but we still see each other, which is so the podcast also helps. We've been talking ever since. We've been talking ever since we have audience in 164 countries. It's really cool, very cool. So it's a truly global podcast, and our team tells us that we need to tell our audience that you should subscribe to the podcast and you should also comment make, wow. I this is really interesting. And of course, tell your friends Leilani, want more.

Leilani Farha:

Give us lots of stars. We like stars and we like money. You can go to patreon.com look for Pushback Talks and just support us with a few dollars, few euros. Every little bit helps.

Fredrik Gertten:

And we, in these strange days, we try to label ourselves as a resistance podcast, because the world needs resistance more than ever.

Leilani Farha:

Hopeful resistance. I think hopeful resistance.

Fredrik Gertten:

I think hope is very important.

Leilani Farha:

I know you do Fredrik,

Fredrik Gertten:

the last years it's been tough for you and for many other people because of the situation in Gaza, it's been emotional draining. So we do what we can to keep hope from anyway, but now we're going actually into this whole of hope and despair called Palestine, and we have distinguished guests from Ramallah in Palestine, and it's Allegra Pacheco, who's the Chief of Party for the West Bank protection Consortium. So it's a big humanitarian assistant project in the area C of the West Bank. We will explain more about this, but welcome to Pushback Talks, Allegra.

Allegra Pacheco:

Thank you. Thank you very much. It's good to be here. It

Fredrik Gertten:

is good to have people who because you, you worked for 25 years in in Palestine. How did it all start? It

Allegra Pacheco:

Well, actually, I was involved. I went to Columbia as an undergrad, famous Columbia, and also law school, and I was involved on in human rights for Palestinians on campus. And I became interested in going to Palestine and work there. And I worked for an Israeli lawyer, Lance Amel, during the First Intifada. She represented Palestinians, and I was very inspired by that, and I decided I want to be a human rights lawyer on the ground. Then I had my student loans from law school, so I worked for a few years in New York, and then when the first stage of the Oslo process started in 1993 I thought, Oh, my God, the occupation is about to end, and I'm going to lose my chance to be a human rights lawyer. And so I just resigned from my current job and moved there to do human rights work. And then I thought after that I would use my corporate laws experience to do joint ventures between Palestinians and Israelis. Unfortunately, for the next seven years during the Oslo process, the human rights situation deteriorated, and I continued my work there. And then the second intifada started. It was hard to move around, and then I started to work for the. UN had easier access in un cars, so I worked for more than a decade in the UN and now working for this project. In the meantime, personally, I got married and had children, and I'm based here. So

Fredrik Gertten:

that's, that's, you take one step and you're you lose yourself into a different world that is kind of hope and despair and destiny. Yeah,

Allegra Pacheco:

unexpected, yeah, that's beautiful, definitely. Leilani,

Fredrik Gertten:

you are also human rights lawyers, so you, you and Allegra has a lot in common.

Leilani Farha:

We do. We do. And I mean, my attachment to Palestine comes through my family, of course, my father, but politically and in terms of my human rights work, I had an opportunity as a law student to do an internship, and I could do it anywhere in the world. And I had noticed that no one had been to Palestine. People had been to Israel through this program, but never Palestine. And so I proposed it, needless to say, I was at the University of Toronto law school. No friend to Palestine, and it caused a brouhaha, but I had a strong Professor advocate, Professor Rebecca Cook, who got me there, and I probably have never really left either. So I'm I haven't seen what Allegra has seen on the ground, of course, because I've never lived there, but we are in good hands with Allegra this morning. Or I, it's morning for me, it's afternoon for everyone else, but I'm excited for this conversation to learn more. Yeah,

Fredrik Gertten:

I see Allegra here, and you Leilani on on the screen. Unfortunately, you the audience cannot, but it's it reminds me when I was a journalist. Long time ago, I covered the Madrid Conference, the first kind of big meetings between the Palestinians and the Israelis, with Gorbachev and the old bush was there. And also I interviewed Hanan ASHRAE, the great Palestinian advocate, who I actually, when I see your smile alegri, I think of Hana sravi. So it's kind of amazing to have this power of a smile in the midst of a very complicated situation. How do you how do you do it? To keep your your hopes up?

Allegra Pacheco:

Well, you know, again, it's a difficult situation, but I feel there's no choice but to hope that things get better. I feel as a lawyer that justice and international law are on the side of Palestinian self determination for a Palestinian state. So I don't feel in any contradiction. I feel that the direction that I'd like to see things head and right now improvement of the humanitarian situation is the right advocacy and the right way we should all be going. So that motivates me to be on the right side. It's

Fredrik Gertten:

good for your mental health to be on the right side. Yes, yeah. I'm not so sure that the people on the other side are so happy.

Allegra Pacheco:

Yeah. I mean, also, I've been here long enough to see the potential that keeps narrowing. But the potential for Palestine, Israel, this to be an amazing place because of the people, the brains, the resources, I would say, up until maybe two, three years ago, the potential was much bigger. Unfortunately, things I think, have shifted to the right, to more difficult, racist ethnic cleansing, type of rhetoric that poisons that potential, but definitely that potential kept me going for many years. I

Leilani Farha:

think it's one of the things the world has been exposed to, incredible atrocities, unbearable images since October 7. Forward, however, we've also been exposed to the incredible, just the incredible Palestinian people. And I'm not talking about resilience. I mean, people talk about Palestinian resilience. I don't actually want to talk about that, but I'm talking about we have learned of the Palestinian poets, the surgeons, the everyday workers. I think the world didn't really know Palestinian people and and what they bring to the world. It's really exceptional for such a small population under such harsh conditions to be so creative and intellectual and educated, and educated, I mean, one of the most educated populations in the world, one of the most literate populations in the world. It's this is one thing that I love that's happened is this exposure of Palestinians to the world. And of course, this is also why we're seeing a clamp down, in my opinion, in the West in particular, yeah,

Allegra Pacheco:

yeah. I think added to all that, is maybe more real politic approach. I mean, Palestinians here have no other choice but to continue to stay and do use every. Every kind of mechanism, creative project, you know, and all their resources to stay here and have a dignified life. Of course, in the West Bank, it's much better than in Gaza. But again, I think here I see it. I see Palestinians doing their best to stay on the land and resist the push to get them to leave.

Fredrik Gertten:

Now a lot of people are watching the film, The Oscar winning documentary, no other land, which I think it's a beautiful film. It's because it's also a very touching portray of a community of people being together, just sitting, eating or having a tea. There's a lot of beauty in that, in that kind of resisting by being good people, that film plays in what is called Area C. What is now Area C, and what is what is happening there right now? Can you explain this? Sure.

Allegra Pacheco:

So you know West Bank, and I'll focus on the west bank at this point, it's occupied territory governed by a foreign military army, the Israeli army, and as part of the Oslo peace process, several decades ago, the idea was to do this transition from total military occupation to providing some sort of autonomy for Palestinians and autonomous governments that could lead to a Palestinian state. And so the West Bank was divided into different areas with different parties in control. So the area A and B generally in control by the newly established Palestinian Authority, and that's about 40% of the West Bank. And then Area C the rest of the West Bank was left under the control of the Israeli army. That's where all the settlements are. So it's the largest area of the West Bank. There are about 300,000 Palestinians living there. And during the Oslo period, when it started, there were about 150,000 settlers. Now today there's over 500,000 settlers living there. So there's a large settlement population there. And then, of course, there's East Jerusalem, which was sort of it's already been annexed or taken by Israel as part of Israel, but that area was left for negotiations under a final status. This whole mechanism was set up for five years. It was called an interim agreement, and it was supposed to expire in 1999 by that time, the idea that most of Area C would have been transferred to the Palestinian Authority, and would be Palestinian, and then there would only be the settlements, which then were smaller areas to deal with. And in 1999 things didn't go so great. Final status talks never were realized. And we're here today in 2025 in that situation of this ABC of the West Bank. And maybe just to say that on the 20th anniversary of the Oslo Agreements, the Israeli architect Yossi bailan said that keep the reliance on this ABC interim agreement, which was only meant for five years, is like keeping a 20 year old in kindergarten perpetually. This was not an arrangement to last forever. It was very, very much thought of as temporary.

Fredrik Gertten:

Leilani, you worked in Palestine and made a report for the Norwegian Refugee Council. We also did the podcast. When you were there, I remember you were very emotionally touched. To put it simple,

Leilani Farha:

it's, it's a part of the West Bank. First of all, that is gorgeous. It's beautiful. I mean, I really respond to sort of mountainous desert, and that's what it's like there. It is a resource rich area, which is why it's such a significant and contested by the Israelis area. That's why they want to annex it. It is full of amazing people doing amazing things. You know, I mean, herding goats and living on the land and producing from the land. It is an incredible place. And then add to it the conditions under which they're living, which allegor can probably go into in more detail. I've only been there once for a very short period, but I mean, it's pretty awful people will see in media these very violent Israeli settlers, and it is where some of the most radical settlers are located. They are aggressive, violent, and have become more so. I believe since October 2023, they are driving Palestinians out, and they are backed by the state. I think it would be erroneous and correct me if I'm wrong. Allegra to think of these as like lone wolf, like they're on their own kind of thing. They are part of the state machinery, as I understand, and maybe you can explain that further. But these are very, very horrific conditions. And then the Israeli, the Israeli authorities themselves, are constantly demolishing homes, demolishing schools, demolishing health centers, demolishing solar panels, demolishing roads. I remember, like, we were driving on this one road. I was in the back of a truck, and, like, so bumpy. Like crazy bumpy. I was, like, literally being thrown around. And I turned to my host, and I said, like, what? Like, what is this road we were going between two villages? And he said, Oh, no. Two days ago, this was a bitumen paved road. The Israeli authorities had dug it up, and this is constantly happening. But maybe Allegra can talk more about which settlers are there and what's the relationship with the state.

Allegra Pacheco:

Okay, yeah, thanks. So just to go back areas a and b are the populated areas Palestinian populated areas. There are no settlements there, and the lines were drawn right up to the last populated the last house Area C is the natural expansion of these Palestinian cities and village it's key to any viable Palestinian state, and the way they divided up a and b and c, it's like take a piece of Swiss cheese and you have these islands of A and B surrounded by moats of sea and and also the expansion areas. And so when Israel controls the sea areas. It just effectively disconnects movement from all the Palestinian cities and villages. So that's something very important in sea movement and access. And since October, since the war in 2023 but since the cease fire in January, movement and access has been really restricted, and they were additional. They're up to 848 physical obstacles now in Area C, these are Israeli placed obstacles and checkpoints blocking Palestinian movement on roads. Now, how do they do that without affecting all the settlers who move on roads also in Area C Well, there have been a lot of a lot of road construction, and there's basically a two tiered road system in the West Bank, big highways, a lot of them, are new for Israeli settlers to commute from their settlements into Israel, and many parts of these are closed off to Palestinians. And then they're the former and older road networks that you know sway and curve, and you know older roads from 70 years ago that are allocated to Palestinians, but they're disconnected, and by these new roads that the Israelis have built, and where they can't move across the new road, the Israelis have built quite a few tunnels. So it's almost layers of Palestinian traffic moving under the Israeli settler traffic, and then to compound it on these Palestinian roads, that's where we get all these gates and earth mounds and roadblocks and checkpoints to ensure that Palestinian movement is restricted even more. So that's access and movement. The second point about Area C. Area C is where all the settlers live. Okay? And they keep expanding and expanding, and they've turned around the whole international legal framework of what is an occupation. Occupation is supposed to be temporary. Between the end of hostilities and a negotiated agreement, someone has to keep order. It's generally the army that wins the war, and in this case, it's Israel. And so there's a whole body of law, the Fourth Geneva Convention, that regulates what the army can do and what it can't do, and how it's obligated to protect the local civilians. Anything that it does that makes permanent changes is like the big no no's of the Fourth Geneva Convention. So that's why settlements are prohibited, because when you bring civilians into the occupied territory. Israeli civilians, you're making permanent changes. You're doing a population movement. That's illegal, but it's very hard to undo that, as opposed to undoing an army base. The second thing is, Israel saying, I want this land applying sovereignty, as it calls it, or annexation, the occupying power is not allowed, has no right, has no sovereign claims to occupied territory. Nevertheless, Israel has done this with East Jerusalem and surrounding villages, and now its leaders are calling for the annexation of Area C, that all of Area C should be on. Under Israeli rule, so it faces that threat. And third, this happens by Israel, since it's still controlling these areas, just embarks on all these measures that make it incredibly difficult, some of them, Leilani, you've mentioned, that make it very difficult for Palestinians to live there. There's a concerted development of Palestinian areas, they can't build. Palestinians, unlike us in the West, we don't come into an already built home. Palestinians build homes from scratch on their land. They build the water system, they build the roads. They do everything on their own. All this requires permits, which Israel doesn't give in 2024 not one permit for construction was provided to Palestinians, whereas 1000s of settlements and settlement units were allowed to be built. So there's this, what we call a coercive environment, lack of water, lack of access, demolition of homes, and then, of course, the settler violence, all compounding, making life very difficult, leaving Palestinians with no choice but to leave when they really have no other place to go, going back to the movie, as mentioned before,

Fredrik Gertten:

no other land. Yeah, it's it's obvious that the Israelis want to make life as impossible as possible all the time, and it's an absurd story that you're telling, and it's little bit hard to imagine how it would be to keep it up in a world like that. But I still, I also have Palestinian friends here in Malmo, Sweden, who still have a family house in Bethlehem, and which is also then in Area C, and it's difficult, but then when they talk about their home, their village, it's like paradise. What they are when they're describing is Paradise, and they always want to go there. But of course, it's it's scary, even for any peaceful citizen or any country to be considered as a Palestinian. It's a very sad situation. So this is one of the darkest days times, in some way, what's happening in Gaza is horrible and and it's very worrying what's happening on the West Bank. So, so where are we going now? Allegra Leilani, where are we going? Is there a light in the tunnel?

Leilani Farha:

I'm going to let Allegra answer that.

Allegra Pacheco:

Thank you. That's the big that's the big issue. You know, I would again divide it into maybe two layers. I mean, the first is, there is a solution, and it's found in international law. Everyone's been talking about it, Security Council, the International Court of Justice, its EU policy, there is a solution. So it's not like we have to find one. Okay, it just said the law has to be enforced. And now, you know, with so many Israeli settlers in the West Bank, it's even more challenging. But again, you know, as the International Court of Justice just ruled this past July, because of all the permanent changes Israel is making it's basically lost its privilege, its right to be an occupying power, and it's violating all the rules. And so the ICJ basically said Israel has to leave, the military has to leave, and the settlements have to be dismantled, along with the wall and all these other things. So again, theoretically, that is the solution, and it's bound in international law, and we cannot let the right wing Israelis dominate and take over the discourse and turn it around and say, we have an equal right to this land, and we have a right to ask Palestinians to leave. We have to undermine and not let that turn into the dominant discourse. So that's one thing, and I think, for the listeners, is to, you know, again, listen to podcasts like this and read and be educated that what the Israeli right wing government today is saying voluntary emigration, for example, when it's all coerced, that these things are totally in violation of international law. And what is international law? What is the fourth union convention? I mean, it was finalized post World War Two, to stop and prevent the atrocities of World War Two and prior wars. This is all about protecting innocent people, civilians, and we should all be concerned about that, because we're all most of us listening to this, are civilians and the abuses of a military of people in power can get out of control anywhere, but are getting out of control over there. So that's more the theoretical, practically. Again, the Palestinians, especially, for example, in Ara sea, but obviously in Gaza, they have no protections. This is what is the most concerning in the West Bank. You know, the occupying army is supposed to protect. They don't protect that. Actually many times help or turn a blind eye to the Israeli attackers. And the Palestinian Authority can protect because they're not allowed to go into Area C. They're limited to area A and B, and the international community is not providing any protection. And I think that's a huge gap. And then finally, Palestinians, if they protect themselves, if they do self defense, if they push out a settler, if a Bedouin pushes out a settler from its tent, that Bedouin person can be arrested for attacking a settler, could be shot by the settler and killed. So even self defense, there's hardly any room for that. And that's where we need the international community, I would say, from my experience, you know, I bring a lot of diplomats and visiting delegations to these communities, and the communities feel really let down that they are not being physically protected. President Trump thinks out of the box. We need to think out of the box. We need to think of it's not just declarations and slogans anymore. It has to be practical measures to challenge Israel's continued presence in this area, where even now, the ICJ, reaffirmed by the General Assembly, has said Israel no longer should be there.

Leilani Farha:

And I mean, the ICJ was really clear that third party states cannot in any way, directly or indirectly, support the occupation. And you know, I think we need to be creative about what that means too, and really try to breathe life into that and push the international community. I mean, I think I hear Palestinians consuming social media constantly. I'm seeing Palestinians say they feel abandoned. They feel alone. They feel unprotected, as you said, Allegra unprotected. They're a completely vulnerable population and completely unprotected. This morning, I woke up and I saw these doctors for Gaza that have formed a group international doctors for Gaza, and they were calling for protection, international protective forces coming in. And I don't think they would limit that to Gaza. I think they are thinking, you know, all of the occupied Palestinian territories, wherever Palestinians are under threat. How can that happen? I mean, in international law, as I understand it, it technically goes through the Security Council, which means it can't happen is, are you thinking outside the box on this one? Is there a way around the Security Council? I mean, obviously the US would veto anything like that. So,

Allegra Pacheco:

yeah, so it's a real challenge because of Israel's control. But you know, in Gaza, the Israelis and the Americans have set up a private security company that is operating in netzereem. So all of a sudden we have this new formation, and I think the idea of the private security companies in the West Bank maybe hired by the Palestinian Authority, maybe hired by these communities themselves. Who are these companies? I don't know. Are they Palestinian security companies? Can a Palestinian carry a gun? I don't think so in Area C but maybe can carry pepper spray. You know, thinking like this, if we get American private American security companies, imagine what they would be reporting to the US Embassy when they're facing the Israeli settlers coming every night. How you know they would be, I would think, completely disturbed by the freedom of armed Israelis running around wreaking havoc in Palestinian very simple communities. So again, that's that's another idea. There's also community protection initiatives going on, where empowering the communities themselves, how they organize when an attack happens, for an example, barbed wire ditches, providing security cameras, just at least so there's evidence, bringing more dogs in to also threaten invading settlers in one very simple community in the community center. And the community center is made from aluminum, few pieces of aluminum, pieces of wood. Right outside was a pile of stones, and that's their emergency weapon. If the settlers come in in the middle of the night, they already have collected stones to throw at the invading armed settlers. So I don't have all the answers, but I think on protection, it needs to be more physical. Now, we can't just do protection human rights reporting. You know, these kinds of makeshift gathering evidence, it has to be physical. These are just some ideas. But, yeah, I think we put minds together. We could get some ideas together and also look at similar or. There historical situations where people had to defend themselves against the powers that be,

Fredrik Gertten:

I would think of in during the Gaza war, many of the European nations have looked at a different direction, and that's shameful, because in some way, it sends a message that human rights are not for all. It's just for some people, which is sad for us as Europeans, because we left this kind of colonial eye behind us, and now it kind of bounces back, which is, I think is painful as a European. But now again, when Now Trump is going so crazy, you can hear the Europeans again saying, Yeah, but we want a two state solution. We want a two state solution. So it's, it's Europeans are again, speaking up a little bit louder, not a lot. So when you meet with governments coming to visit you out there, what do you tell them? Or what do they tell you?

Allegra Pacheco:

Well, again, what we do when we take these officials out is we tell them, this is the land. This is what will make a viable Palestinian state. And this community may not be here when you come back, and it's not just they leave the land, but in most cases, the settlers come in and take over. So it then exacerbates the problem, makes it much more difficult. Of course, we're advocating return, and there are two small cases of communities trying to return, but still facing the settler violence. So that's to me, the message is that the two state solution, and really the side of the viable Palestinian state, that side of the two state solution is disappearing, and we've been saying it for a long time, but it's escalating. The rate of disappearance is escalating. So in the humanitarian community, the contingency plan worst case scenario that actually people are thinking, it's not going it's not the most extreme, but estimations a further 240,000 Palestinians will be displaced, not Gaza in the West Bank, if things continue as they are. The majority of this number are from East Jerusalem and Area C, and the rest are from the refugee camps, which we didn't talk about the mass displacements over there. So the worry is really significant now that we're going to face further mass displacements, and then the political implication is the Palestinians flee. Are forced out, and they go into the a's and b's, they leave the C the settlers take over, and what's left for Palestinians are these islands of A and B, and that will not create a viable state. And again, C is 60% of the West Bank. It's not only the area for the natural growth of A and B, but it also is the area where the wells are, the underground water wells, transportation routes, agricultural land, grazing land. It's the source for viable Palestinian state. So again, we show all of that, and I think that's the message we're trying to convey. There's an urgency, and as well the rhetoric on the Israeli right wing. I monitor some of the settler What's up groups and you but you don't need to do that. You just need to hear from the Tsar al smotrick, who is the Israeli finance minister, and he wears a second hat, which is effectively he's the governor of the West Bank for the first time in 50 something years of occupation. Israeli settlers control Palestinian lives in Area C, and increasingly we're moving into B. So we the urgency is really at a very high level. And the rhetoric, I mean, the slogan that you see now is, take over, occupy, expel and settle. Now, if we had this in other places, it would be completely still, be completely unacceptable. But why is a large population of the Israeli public, you know, the right wing, the settlers allowed to have that as their slogan. They have another. They have an Arabic poster campaign in the West Bank in Arabic, and it says it's a message to Palestinians, okay, but it's posters in Palestinian areas and bumper stickers. And it basically has says, there's no future in Palestine. You know? It says, la mu stock of a listing, it's very clear now, you know, again, this is what we're trying to convey. And the European community provides so much support to Israel, and we need to think about how that support can be leveraged to stop this. I. Know it's very difficult, but right now, there isn't leverage being used. Maybe I have to say one more thing about sanctions on settlers, because I think many of your listeners might be aware that the Americans, Canadians, UK, EU, put sanctions on these very violent settlers. So what's good about that is that it basically these countries have recognized that there is a red line, you know, that this kind of violence of Israeli civilian attacks on Palestinian is unacceptable. And if Israel is not going to take any steps, these countries will take steps. So that's welcomed. However, they haven't been very effective in stopping these settlers. And the primary reason why there's two reasons, one is these are very ideological people, and they don't really need a visa to Europe. They don't go vacationing much. But the second reason is that the Israeli government has not taken any steps against these people and has left them there. They've basically left the bank robber in the bank. And you know these people who, again, have been filmed attacking and carrying out horrific assault, you know, the criminals left at the scene of the crime. So the

Fredrik Gertten:

Europeans should put more people on the list, or, you know, higher up then, of course, yeah. I

Allegra Pacheco:

mean, first, the people who make the policy, who finance and fund this violence, also need to be affected and leverage on them. And of course, the Israeli government is funding a lot of these outposts and settlements. There's billions of dollars, I could give you the list allocated to settlements, roads, outposts, et cetera. But the second thing is that they're simple, even simple things, you know, the military commander should issue an order banning Why do Israeli settlers have freedom to roam in Area C and Palestinian villages to enter, to go to Palestinian grazing lands and agricultural lands. There is a military order banning Israelis from entering a and b. So it's just extending it to the sea areas where the Palestinians are and enforcing. And in fact, the military commander has done that in certain cases. So, you know, having governments, you know, when they engage the Israelis to say, why are you letting these people roam freely. Stop them. We need bans. We need the outposts that they live in.

Fredrik Gertten:

We need law and order for everyone. Yes,

Allegra Pacheco:

yeah. So there are ways, because it's occupied territory, and the military can just issue an order freely.

Fredrik Gertten:

I think we have to wrap up, because we've been on it for a long time. Just a quick round your old University, Columbia. We had students from Columbia here in the podcast before the amazing, brave movement of the new generations of also Americans, that are in this bitter way getting to understand the world. How do you see that the Columbia situation.

Allegra Pacheco:

You know, I was at Barnard when we had the divestment movement, divestment from South Africa, and Nelson Mandela. We had the administration saying Nelson Mandela was a terrorist, and anyone who supports him is supporting terrorism. So for me, it's like it's a deja vu. And also, then the students took over the building. I wasn't a leader there, but definitely participated in certain activities. There was never, ever at that time, the thought that the New York police would come in into the campus, which is all gated. Second, there was this principle that students have a right to political expression. And third, you know, again, ultimately, Columbia divested from South Africa because of apartheid. So, you know, the university, and it wasn't the only one. The universities moved. And I think you know the approach now is, I'm shocked again, I went to bar. I went to Columbia as an undergrad and for law school to see the university acting this way towards students I, you know, from early on, when they banned Jewish Voice for Peace and the Palestinian students group, I wrote to them and said, I'm withholding any further, small support that I've given to the university as an alumna. So it's shocking. It's shocking and disappointing, and especially coming from the same place, and having been educated on these constitutional principles of the right to expression,

Fredrik Gertten:

I think as filmmaker, when I once got sued by a big American corporation, and that sometimes tells you that what you do is right, and when now no other land is attacked, they try to close the cinema in in Miami, because they show the film. It also tells you that the power of of something, they actually fear the film, and they also fear the power of the students. Not only. At Columbia, many other universities, they can see a new generation coming up who can connect the dots. And of course, that's they want to hit and hit hard, but they hit hard because they can see that there is a force being built up. Leilani, yeah,

Leilani Farha:

but what they forget is that knowledge isn't undone. You know, once you hit a consciousness about something, I remember as a young woman learning about feminism, and once the penny dropped, I couldn't see the world differently. And it's the same thing that's happening with Palestine. People's eyes are being opened, and they will not see differently ever again. I read an interesting article about Columbia where they were arguing it is no longer an academic institution, in fact, because it has caved to government pressure and business pressure and so querying it can it still be considered an academic institution. It's pretty, pretty sad times for that institution. I mean, some of my best friends have come out of Columbia, and, you know, some really amazing minds. And of course, Edward said himself, so it's, it's tragic, but I think you're right. Allegra and Fredrik, the student movements are strong and they will make a difference. It takes time, but they will make a difference.

Fredrik Gertten:

It will. I would like to to end with this, because it's a beautiful ending. I think it was really lovely to see you and listen to you. Allegra Pacheco, because it's we need voices like yours and actions like your sources. So it's thank you for the inspiration and thank you for your work.

Leilani Farha:

Yes, and I have to say, Allegra, the first time I met you, was online like this, and you struck me, and you struck me again this time as really thinking outside the box. You've got amazing ideas, and I think we need to use your inspiration and your your way of thinking differently. That's the only way out of this. Well,

Allegra Pacheco:

thank you very much, and thank you for having me, and it's been a pleasure to speaking with you, both of you, thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Allegra,

Fredrik Gertten:

thank you. Leilani, amazing again, and the inspiration, I always get good energy of making this podcast. Me too. Me too. So even if we don't, can pay the bills, we can still walk a little bit more straight up, which is good with

Leilani Farha:

some pride. You can walk with pride, absolutely, absolutely.

Fredrik Gertten:

So have a great day over there in the Canadian wilderness or whatever. Storm is coming. Storm is coming. It's sunshine in Malmö. So I'm happy I'm going to walk out enjoy so take care and thank you very much.

Leilani Farha:

Thanks. Fredrik, bye.

Kirsten McRae:

Pushback Talks is produced by WG film. To support the podcast, become a patron by going to patreon.com/pushback talks follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film. Or check out our websites, maketheshift.org, pushthefilm.com or breakingsocialfilm.com